phf: smh when the subject of `collapse hoard` comes up i imagine stephen fry's library of forbidden gay literature from v for vendetta, except with, like, rracist looney tunes cartoons
signpost[asciilifeform]: "gather round kids, and we'll hear the tale of the time dr seuss cartooned a problematic asian"
phf: somebody should redo this scene https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RH96S4rBZbI but with the various silly actual bannings
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-02-11#1023004 << Would suck to be prepping for the nuclear dystopia only to end up with the cyberpunk one lmao
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-02-11 18:33:47 phf[jonsykkel]: and i don't have a book on gunsmithing, what do`. that is whether or not that preparing for such an eventuality is a legitimate activity
awt[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-02-09#1022796 << having a hard time figuring out what to work on next. I was thinking about implementing rekeying. Not very exciting, like the gui work, but something I can get done in a reasonable amount of time. Some things I've spent a few cycles on recently include: attempting to get
awt[cgra]: blatta working in python 3.x and exploring making a discord bridge module/bot.
bitbot[cgra|asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-02-09 11:05:59 phf[awt|deedbot]: of course the main problem though is that blatta is a on backburner, so an iteration cycle on issues like that, that need to be explored and tuned, counts in weeks if not months.
signpost[cgra]: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2023-02-12#1023113 << imho this is a good idea. build normie bridges. try the low barrier to entry thing this time, why not.
dulapbot: Logged on 2023-02-12 10:56:10 awt[cgra]: blatta working in python 3.x and exploring making a discord bridge module/bot.
signpost[cgra]: if/when they start breaking the internet, that is what's called a teachable moment.
signpost[cgra]: thing having a web frontend UI as normie lobby would also be cool
signpost[cgra]: meanwhile what's this joint psyop with the chinese. "oh, we've all got UFOs we're tracking now"
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-02-12#1023028 << not clear from linked material whether item in question is ice40-compat. (and therefore might work with the reversed toolchain), and for that matter, asciilifeform has nfi whether the latter is even being updated by anyone
bitbot[cgra|asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-02-12 07:32:54 crtdaydreams[jonsykkel|awt|signpost]: lattice bringing out moar gates
asciilifeform: ( for that matter, historically in fpga marketing lit 'moar gates' has usually meant 'in the form of proprietary on-die appliances' rather than 'bigger sea o'gates' fwiw )
asciilifeform: see e.g. thread re economics of fpga biz, re wai erry vendor to date ended up selling ~same ~indigestible thing
dulapbot: (asciilifeform) 2020-08-20 asciilifeform: there is presently no 100%-documented homogeneous fpga on market. and, for fundamental reasons, aint likely to be, 100% of fpga vendors live from the 'rent out the right to use our built-in NIC' and similar scamola
asciilifeform: it is certainly possible to make 'gigantic sea of gates'. physically -- but afaik not economically. so nobody's aboutta.
dulapbot: (asciilifeform) 2020-12-04 asciilifeform: qonfluent: actually, the ~only~ si i'd consider making, is a large homogeneous fpga . but afaik it is ~impossible to actually finance such a project , unless yer already rockefeller.
asciilifeform: ( who the fuck wants to invest 1e9+$ into selling a commodity, when could instead push a vendorlock mousetrap. )
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-02-12#1023031 << asciilifeform can see the win from 'www n00b door' from 'get folx to see the win and bake own pestnets' pov, but 'glue directly to heathen chats, so lamers can shit into a pestnet w/out doing any of the key management etc chores' imho questionable win
bitbot[cgra]: Logged on 2023-02-12 10:57:20 awt: blatta working in python 3.x and exploring making a discord bridge module/bot.
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-02-12#1023036 << popularity of 'ufology' does appear to track 'reich wants to distract and corral political unreliables' 'temperature'
dulapbot: (asciilifeform) 2022-06-16 asciilifeform: 'we maybe found martians' seems to get run whenever 'need noose distraction, and the arrange-postals dept. is slow'
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-02-12 11:23:59 signpost: meanwhile what's this joint psyop with the chinese. "oh, we've all got UFOs we're tracking now"
asciilifeform: ( recall that ufology started life as 'forced meme' of us air force, which littered continent with crashes of seekrit jets and grasped at straws to find ways to keep plebes from plundering/photographing and ruining the fun
asciilifeform: later on, was expanded to serve other useful functions.
awt[cgra]: asciilifeform: I suspect there will be no stampede to the pest discord room. Also it can be invite only, modded, etc. It will however allow any person of potential interest to join the discussion via their iphone.
asciilifeform: awt: seems like www gate oughta satisfy the 'i want to talk from ipnoje' folx, neh
asciilifeform: (recall, fleanode had one)
awt[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform: doesn't really work that well
asciilifeform: iirc phf described how one might make one that worx as well as any such thing could
awt[asciilifeform]: With discord you can leave, come back - log is still there, get notifications, etc. Yesiknow the log is available on the web, etc.
asciilifeform: ideal www gate would display ordered log from an actual pestron, rather than current irc kludge
signpost[cgra]: yeah that's true, while bolting to heathen chats will inherit same problems as the current irc frontend.
signpost[cgra]: but in either case, derp that wants to stay on discord will do so.
asciilifeform: precisely
signpost[cgra] thinks there are a few lonely travelers left to be found though, and encourages any attempts since all to date have not yielded them.
signpost[cgra]: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2023-02-12#1023112 << chicom state media is doing "omg ufo" concurrently with the reich.
dulapbot: Logged on 2023-02-12 10:56:07 awt[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-02-09#1022796 << having a hard time figuring out what to work on next. I was thinking about implementing rekeying. Not very exciting, like the gui work, but something I can get done in a reasonable amount of time. Some things I've spent a few cycles on recently include: attempting to get
bitbot[cgra]: Logged on 2023-02-09 11:05:59 phf[awt|deedbot]: of course the main problem though is that blatta is a on backburner, so an iteration cycle on issues like that, that need to be explored and tuned, counts in weeks if not months.
signpost[asciilifeform]: whether emergent behavior or actual coordination, disgusting.
signpost[cgra]: wife to her credit has said throughout that what's going on is orwell's fake conflicts, and that there will be no ww3.
asciilifeform: no climactic, 'glorious' ww3, as traditionally masturbated tho, fwiw
signpost[cgra]: not sure if I quoted wrong line, or lag. meant to quote this
bitbot[cgra]: Logged on 2023-02-12 12:58:11 asciilifeform[awt|jonsykkel|deedbot]: later on, was expanded to serve other useful functions.
signpost[cgra]: "I want my war!" (TM) (R) (Hook)
phf: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-02-12#1023029 << well, the context from which i was speaking wasn't necessarily lifestyle improvements in blatta, but some extra attention paid to the core protocol behaviors. r. e.g. improvements to addresscast, prod, etc. that are a result of obs
phf: erving of what kind of behaviors we're getting from running the thing in prod
bitbot[cgra]: Logged on 2023-02-12 10:57:19 awt: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-02-09#1022796 << having a hard time figuring out what to work on next. I was thinking about implementing rekeying. Not very exciting, like the gui work, but something I can get done in a reasonable amount of time. Some things I've spent a few cycles on
phf: for example the whole nursery logic needs to be ripped out, or otherwise somehow tuned, because it doesn't work. strongly connected nodes (that is for lack of better word the lordship) don't experience negative effects, because if you send your packets to the whole net, even if one
phf: or two is lost, you still get near-instant propagation. but since i'm running experimental code i inadvertently getting a newb experience: connected through a single node one necessarily is going to get all kinds of regressive behaviors.
phf: right now if you're connected through a single node, a packet loss results in 1) message silently disappearing until its `bumped` by a follow up message 2) the bumped packets then get stuck in some processing machinery. so if you're in the heat of the conversation and things go wro
phf: ng you end up disappearing for several minutes, just to come in with a bunch of messages in arbitrary order at some later point
awt[asciilifeform]: phf: Is this still the case after setting the timeout to 0?
awt[asciilifeform]: *after * set the timeout to 0 on my station, that is
awt[asciilifeform]: I agree irc nursury and order buffer need to be removed. I believe cgra is working on that as part of his UI work. That being the case it doesn't make sense for me to duplicate that effort.
phf: awt, kind of. with timeout 0 it no longer stays in buffer for 15-20 minutes at a time, but it's not pass through either. also some people in the chain still have the old behavior. i at some point gave up and started broadcasting to everyone
phf: but also the latest version of blatta (with spammy addresscast) as far as i remember got rolled back because of bugs, so everyone's sitting on some older versions. why not make a clean release with some of these issues fixed?
awt[cgra]: phf: I've released 2 bugfix versions since - addresscast is still spammy but is disabled by default. Wrt address cast improvements what would you like to see tried first? To me the first obv. fix is not to send 'all at once,' but randomly *per peer*.
cgra: awt, phf, from going offline daily noted that perhaps smalpest(?) clones selfchain into netchain, and so if a smalpester had said the latest message when i come online, i'm doomed to wait for some loose chain ends to sync by getting new messages in them. jonsykkel can you comment?
jonsykkel[cgra]: cgra: i dont undersand "clones selfchain into netchain", how u mean?
cgra: jonsykkel not sure why, but when i'm stuck syncing, it's often because netchain in crtdaydreams's message is same as selfchain, but by other indications, it should've been somebody else's message
cgra: (maybe i gotta look again/closer, to make a precise claim)
jonsykkel[cgra|asciilifeform]: wtf inded
phf: awt, ah apologies for misrepresentation. my impression was that there was a major upgrade drive sometime in november, and then mostly quite. so if i were to install the most recent version of blatta it's going to have nursery set to 0 out of the box?
jonsykkel[cgra]: i chagned somthing around that code in last update gota take look
jonsykkel[cgra]: ok it dosnt even set the netchain varible on recv only send
jonsykkel[cgra]: (lol)
jonsykkel[cgra]: tanks cgra i will fix
cgra: jonsykkel, hehe ok. another bug squashed
jonsykkel[cgra]: too bad al my pakets are fucked since begining of time
jonsykkel[cgra]: how embarasing
phf: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-02-12#1023087 << no disrespect, that's what i meant by `on back burner`. things come up in logs, like we just had an extensive conversation about addresscast, that didn't have a conclusion, but provided some of the directions of thought.
awt[phf|cgra]: phf: if you are up to the latest patch address cast is disabled by default but if enabled will randomly within a configurable interval generate a blast for everyone who is considered offline (no ping for 63 seconds by default) - the order buffer timeout is *not* set to zero by default (I think this is what you mean by nurs
awt[phf|cgra]: ury). Additionally added support for faster serpent implementation, splitting messages
bitbot[cgra]: Logged on 2023-02-12 13:50:20 awt: phf: I've released 2 bugfix versions since - addresscast is still spammy but is disabled by default. Wrt address cast improvements what would you like to see tried first? To me the first obv. fix is not to send 'all at once,' but randomly *per peer*.
awt[asciilifeform]: with newlines into multiple messages and splitting long outgoing messages into multiple packets.
awt[asciilifeform]: phf: it has definitely been on the back burner.
phf: as the owner of the main pest implementation, kudos and respect for that, you have the option to communicate and or act as a result of such conversations. my current impression though is that you're letting myself and asciilifeform banter about these kind of corner cases, while per
phf: haps waiting for the next version of spec to come out, where hopefully such details will have from above prescriptions.
phf: but as things stand, the spec is in transitionary state, and so necessary is blatta. quirky protocol behaviors have been unearthed as a result of running blatta and other clients in prod, that need to be solved systematically. particularly if we're talking about advertising and bri
phf: nging lusers into the mix. so the way i see it you can either actively participate in the changes, or wait till the next full spec is released. either option is an entirely proper and viable, but the later is called `on back burner`.
phf: awt, i'm on a janky setup with an older version of pest.lisp, so i have to prewrite my responses :D
awt[cgra]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-02-12#1023109 << indeed. Frustrating thing is that spammy though address cast is, I don't believe it's been used once (could be wrong). Could cut back the broadcast interval quite a bit and siginificantly reduce spam.
bitbot[cgra]: Logged on 2023-02-12 14:27:30 phf[awt|deedbot]: but as things stand, the spec is in transitionary state, and so necessary is blatta. quirky protocol behaviors have been unearthed as a result of running blatta and other clients in prod, that need to be solved systematically. particularly if we're talking about advertisi
awt[cgra]: I spent a lot of time getting it to a functional state and I would really like to see it get used.
phf: well, i've implemented a handful of asciilifeform's brilliant ideas before, and know from experience that they should be treated more like flights of inspiration, rather than direct prescription. requires liberal applicatino of hammer and metal file (tm)(c)
signpost[cgra]: awt oughta keep this in mind too.
bitbot[cgra]: Logged on 2023-02-12 12:58:11 asciilifeform[awt|jonsykkel|deedbot]: later on, was expanded to serve other useful functions.
signpost[asciilifeform]: no need to be frustrated. thing's an awesome prototype.
signpost[cgra]: damn, what's going on with my copy/paste today
bitbot[cgra]: Logged on 2022-12-25 12:57:51 phf[awt]: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2022-12-25#1019348 << but on the other hand we don't want to discourage you writing experimental code, because unlike athena born as she was from the forehead of her father, distributed code has too much emergent behavior to attempt to reason it fr
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-12-25 12:47:42 asciilifeform: starts to think that in the process of posting this, reduced it to a trivial snoar. apologies to those who bored to tears.
cgra: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-02-12#1023084 << currently thinking i should finish the db munge and wire it up first before letting a patch out, can leave the gui at whatever state to get it out earlier
bitbot[cgra]: Logged on 2023-02-12 13:41:07 awt: I agree irc nursury and order buffer need to be removed. I believe cgra is working on that as part of his UI work. That being the case it doesn't make sense for me to duplicate that effort.
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-02-12#1023078 << fwiw it's already 100% gone from 0xfa. ( the rub is, atm nobody has a proto of 0xfa-istic pestron. asciilifeform is sloooowly baking one but atm not even eats packets just yet, lol )
bitbot[cgra|asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-02-12 13:33:41 phf[awt|deedbot]: for example the whole nursery logic needs to be ripped out, or otherwise somehow tuned, because it doesn't work. strongly connected nodes (that is for lack of better word the lordship) don't experience negative effects, because if you send your packets to the whole net, e
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-02-12#1023079 << asciilifeform for 1 in fact prepared a deliberately-rubbish gsm modem to test his thing with (when finally get beyond 'spreading worx!' stage, lol), for this reason
bitbot[cgra|asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-02-12 13:33:43 phf[jonsykkel]: or two is lost, you still get near-instant propagation. but since i'm running experimental code i inadvertently getting a newb experience: connected through a single node one necessarily is going to get all kinds of regressive behaviors.
asciilifeform itching to get his pestron to the point where it'd make sense to post a draft & invite folx to fiddle with it, but currently mired in salt mine liquishit, sadly
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-02-12#1023115 << this caveat 'goes double' for p2pisms, which inescapably suck in over9000 odd and largely unstudied lulbehaviours of modern net, imho
bitbot[asciilifeform|cgra]: Logged on 2023-02-12 14:47:14 phf[awt|deedbot]: well, i've implemented a handful of asciilifeform's brilliant ideas before, and know from experience that they should be treated more like flights of inspiration, rather than direct prescription. requires liberal applicatino of hammer and metal file (tm)(c)
asciilifeform ftr quite impressed that awt , jonsykkel , phf managed to bake sumthing through which (most of the time) we can actually talk reliably
asciilifeform slowly going over the pre-draft 0xfa spec, correcting lulgaffes and working in items discussed w/ phf et al
phf: i'll also request an rfc period once draft is ready for publication, so that i have a chance to try out and test different protocol details, before we escalate them to voice of god status
asciilifeform: phf: from asciilifeform's pov, 'voice of god status'(tm) is 'far as the moon', can only even be hinted at after thing's been tested under all kindsa conditions, warez net worx, etc
asciilifeform: there are simply too many open q's which can only be answered with over9000 empirical sweat (e.g. how often send prods? wat-do when detected obv 'coarse errors of pilotage' like phf's earlier 'key on 2+ boxes' test? etc)
asciilifeform: not even 100% obv, imho , how satisfactory can be the answers when testing with ~6 active folx on net
phf: perhaps spec can have distinction for some of the functionality, like `conversative and suboptimal behavior for client implementors`. e.g. prescribed PROD is 1 packet every 10 minutes, but we know that better frequency or algorithm might be established in the future
unpx[cgra|asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-02-11#1023002 <<< Then I guess holistic projects should be dissected correctly, I see
bitbot[asciilifeform|cgra]: Logged on 2023-02-11 18:33:45 phf[awt|deedbot]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-02-11#1022994 << a somewhat tradition #t answer is `you're working on X, therefore you have relevant papers/books, therefore you post them on your blog, everything else is masturbation`. i guess this subthread raises a question of `if civ
phf: unpx, yeah i think `holistic` projects are almost always a lie, and need the most attentive disection. there's a very specific chain of books, aritlces and papers that make up what i know as a programmer, but my programmer hoard when i had one was mostly filled with junk i'll never have time or desire to pursue
asciilifeform when working on ffa, collected erry even vaguely-pertinent dead tree, warez scan, published lib, etc. he could find -- and found virtually all of it to be worse than useless
dulapbot: (asciilifeform) 2020-08-12 asciilifeform: for instance when asciilifeform was writing ffa, found existing bignum libs to be ~worse than useless~ as references.
asciilifeform: 'programmer lit' in particular tends to be laser-focused on idjit ephemera, which is 1 reason wai respectable used b00k shops won't even stock anyffin that looks even vaguely 'programmery'
asciilifeform: (some will even eschew actual 'timeless' worx like dks, dijkstra, etc. if curator not tuned into subj enuff to shelve'em in maffs)
asciilifeform: err, dek
asciilifeform: ... or consider, say, the amt of relevance any 'networks' b00k on yer shelf has to pestronics.
asciilifeform: ( there's, for instance, 1-2 pgs in e.g. stevens which depicts udp. but beyond that ? )
phf: possibly the communcating and mobile systems: pi calculus by robin milner. i've never gotten around to reading it, but i suspect it might have insight for reasoning about concurrent processes. or like a way to napkin sketch some of behaviors we see in pest, without constantly havin
phf: g to reinvent the notation. `so you have station A and counterparty B...`
asciilifeform read subj, lulzily, in a salt mine. can see how one might describe a pestnet with it, but suspects that very few will want to ~read~ such a description
asciilifeform: generally, the point of a horror show like that is if one insists on trying to prove theorems re the behaviour of $clockwork
phf: also things like TLA+, but i can also see how one could use it for informal description of hairy problems, to give a reasoning framework. i recon not all formal logic is there to extract dod money
asciilifeform: well some of it is there to extract nsf moneys, lel
phf: when i briefly worked in a .net banking shop, locals would casually draw /proper/ flowcharts to describe behavior. tool is only as suspect as the monkey who uses it
phf: there's a certain type of person who can embrace disciplined formalism, without turning it into a beurocracy. i also kind of suspect that such people are the only ones who can be called computer ~engineers~ proper. i'm not unfortunately one of them
asciilifeform has nuffin against attempts to prove $property re $algo, but believes that this is best done once algo seems superficially perfect in empirical practice, and 'all that remains' is to look for subtle constructible breakage
asciilifeform took approach closer to what phf described in ffa, but a) took aeons b) not even nao convinced that fully covered it