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phf[asciilifeform]: useful, but i'll wait couple of months before the dust settles
phf[asciilifeform]: in before "ascii: they use buz to frob! what heathens! wx is totally compromised!"
asciilifeform: phf: asciilifeform used it befoar, many times, ancient cpp thing.
asciilifeform: worx reasonably well (maps to 'native' guiisms on various os) but quite fiddly.
asciilifeform: phf: in other lulz, recently tried oddball commercial proggy editor from the pycharm etc. people -- 'clion'. notbad imho.
asciilifeform: ( the 1 minus, other than the obv 'notemacs!11' and commercialware, is that it's rather slow -- seems to run a megatonne of java internally )
phf[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform, i use clion, pycharm and intellij almost exclusively for dev work
asciilifeform: aa neato
phf[asciilifeform]: i kind of wish they rolled clion into idea as a plugin (the way pycharm is available as "python" plugin in idea)
asciilifeform: prolly would weigh evenmoar if they rolled errything into 1 editor
asciilifeform: (nfi what their plugin architecture is like)
phf[asciilifeform]: nah, clion is just repackaged idea
asciilifeform likes the various 'smart' pheatures, e.g. formal parameter names displayed next to givens, the built-in linter, etc
phf[asciilifeform]: in practice you end up with two heavy editors running in parallel, and you have to maintain separate set of key bindings and styles and such
asciilifeform would like evenmoar if had faster box to put it on , lol
phf[asciilifeform]: it's ridiculous how powerful the system is. emacs sisters can't compete.
phf[asciilifeform]: runs fine on m1 :>
asciilifeform: will prolly end up using it on that box. ( currently haven't a permanent fixture for it (dedicated lcd etc) tho )
asciilifeform has the 'minimal' m1 box, the fanless 13in lappy thing
phf[asciilifeform]: i've used e.g. clion to refactor gnu diff for vtools, and i don't think i would've bothered and managed otherwise. highlights unused code, variable and function renames, jump to source that's not stuck in the 80s, "who calls", etc. etc. etc.
asciilifeform: aha, pretty neat imho (and beats the shit outta msvs for this kinda thing)
phf[asciilifeform]: i hear if you load couple of megs worth of badly written junk into emacs you can approximate 20% of intellij
asciilifeform: phf: historically what asciilifeform did, yea
asciilifeform: rather typical case of 'commercial outfit did honest job, opensores folx making do with duct tape'
asciilifeform in commercial worx sadly mired in a lang where precious little exists in the way of serious tooling (aside from the usual 'pile of badly-written elisps')
phf[asciilifeform]: 􏿽there's some crazy powerful functionality there. like for example when i was fixing mpwp for sqlite, i also upgraded it to php8x, because i don't want to bother with trying to hand compile some vintage version. there was a lot of deprecations, which are no longer supported, and it'
phf[asciilifeform]: 􏿽s dumb shit like: $a->{0} syntax needs to be replaced with $a->[0] syntax.
phf[asciilifeform]: well intellij php support will highlight the instance of $a->{0} for you, and then you can bring up a menu and either replace $a->{0} with $a->[0] automatically, or find other such cases in the codebase and replace all of them
asciilifeform: beats the shit outta 'nao beat sed into submission for next hr' errytime
phf[asciilifeform]: $a->{ $foo + $bar->{i/n} } but multline. goodluck!
phf[asciilifeform]: genera's emacs has builtin multifile macro and search facilities, that i've seen people rave about in the old cll messages, but i haven't explored it yet. allegedly makes handling cases like that easier. of course none of it is available in emacs
asciilifeform: emacs 'tarpit', 'where errything is possible but nuffin of interest is' easy/reliable
phf[asciilifeform]: 􏿽afaiu it has a handful of primitives for saving current operation context, and then doing a bit of free operations, and then adding a handful of deliberate operations to the saved context. which afaiu solves the annoying emacs macro problem of "i'm in macro editing mode, now i need
phf[asciilifeform]: 􏿽 to type the sequence PRECISELY or else restart from scratch. oops i accidentally pushed wrong key"
phf[asciilifeform]: 􏿽it's sort of captured in emacs's "recursive edit", but afaiu recursive edit was never fleshed out, and it's discouraged from use, and nobody knows how it works anyway. where's genera went all in on recursive edit and there's shit ton of functionality that lets you suspend whatever
phf[asciilifeform]: 􏿽current operation, and manipulate it later in creative ways
phf[asciilifeform]: i don't know if i care that my editor knows exactly that $a->{0} needs to be replaced with $a->[0], because on the surface there ought to be a handful of simple primitive tools that should give you an ability to do that kind of manipulation in a syntactically aware way across the entire codebase
phf[asciilifeform]: certainly without having to write fucking sed, jesus christ
phf[asciilifeform]: and emacs sort of has the necessary primitives "move forward by token" "move forward by nested structure", but because it's driven by zoomer microsoft transplants, that functionality is underdeveloped, underexplored and is generally replaced with inept attempt to "make it like lintellij!!1"
phf[asciilifeform]: emacs and freesoftware are like microcosm illustration of the transplant problem. "i'm moving from a bad place to good place. *some time later* it's my right and desire to have properties of bad place in your good place"
dulapbot: (asciilifeform) 2020-04-16 asciilifeform: ( for the log : '... like a refugee from very rural Pakistan who gets relocated to Oslo, Norway, and still thinks that he could make better food if he were only allowed to light a fire in his living room instead of using that complex electric stove. (This is a real news item. Every now and then, landlords discover indoor fireplaces and occasionally the "newbies" to civilization burn down the building.)' )
asciilifeform: phf: not sure i agree re 'is the fault of microshit escapees'. yea they failed to build emacs up 'to bolix standard', but this aint surprising, they've never seen zmacs.
asciilifeform: moar interesting q is wai 'golden age' authors of emacs failed to do so. (many of'em -- seen)
asciilifeform: re 'clion' etc. -- also not surprising, imho, that it 'does Right Thing' : the atrocious state of the art in softs makes Right Thing require titanic labour, which commercial outfit solves by throwing manpower at $problem (and opensores 'solves' by 'you dun need this, lamer', lol)
asciilifeform: it may be simply that bolix-type functionality can only be implemented (with volunteer hands, that is) on bolix-like sane system.
asciilifeform: *simply be
phf[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-18#1018880 << i think they tried, and i believe i've ranted about it before. fwiw there was definitely a period where simply "outputs a window in x11!" was an achievement. the mythical emacs 19, etc
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-12-18 14:57:12 asciilifeform[jonsykkel|awt|deedbot]: moar interesting q is wai 'golden age' authors of emacs failed to do so. (many of'em -- seen)
phf[asciilifeform]: and i will blame windows transplants for sure, because of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-10#1711940
phf[asciilifeform]: “(the old, not "modern") emacs approach was that you provide non-ambiguous, predictable building block operations that ~specific operator~ can build dwim tools out of. but those dwim tools shouldn't really leave your own toolbox”
phf[asciilifeform]: and elswhere “when i started using emacs there was an almost ideological aversion to DWIM in the community, instead of having say smart context "search" thing you'd have a dozen search-foo-in-bar combinations, and that was thought The Right Thing. emacs has long been dragged in the dwim direction by the usual suspects”
phf[asciilifeform]: so 1000 flies idea exactly fails when it comes to microsoft transplants, because that's where theoretically could also compete with "throwing manpower at $problem", but don't because 1000 flies don't understand the problem. solve entirely different problem that they brought from their third world system
phf[asciilifeform]: 􏿽also example of failure of bazaar, etc. single vertical vision could've forced architectural integrity on emacs solutions, but even that barely. something like "magit" is arguably superior to the builtin vc-mode, but comes with a dozen of idiosyncratic behaviors. novel interaction
phf[asciilifeform]: 􏿽modes built specifically for magit, code that relies on clojure-isms, etc.
phf[asciilifeform]: i suppose at the end of the day it's turtles all the way day. e.g. emacs / xemacs schizm was over that very thing, bringing emacs closer to some genera ideal
phf[asciilifeform]: and presumably stallman never even used zemacs on anything but CADR, so possibly also didn't see any reason to emulate the voodoo
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-18#1018888 << imho the traditional 'search-in-foo' erred heavily in other direction -- the proverbial 'auto with 4 sets of pedals', tho
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-12-18 15:14:47 phf[awt]: and elswhere “when i started using emacs there was an almost ideological aversion to DWIM in the community, instead of having say smart context "search" thing you'd have a dozen search-foo-in-bar combinations, and that was thought The Right Thing. emacs has long been dragged in the
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-18#1018890 << the hypothetical 'vertical solution' from pov of most emacs aficionados 'wouldn't be emacs, it dun even have commodore assembly major mode!11' etc
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-12-18 15:19:22 phf[awt]: 􏿽also example of failure of bazaar, etc. single vertical vision could've forced architectural integrity on emacs solutions, but even that barely. something like "magit" is arguably superior to the builtin vc-mode, but comes with a dozen of idiosyncratic behaviors. novel interactio
asciilifeform: i.e. would have to jettison the ocean of liquishit elisps, which is what most users afaik are using it for to start with
asciilifeform: ( the folx from whose pov ok to throw all of these out -- are already using various 'clion' etc )
phf[asciilifeform]: 􏿽http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-18#1018894 << sure, emacs as a development environment vs the "just wanna edit text" crowd. dwim doesn't necessarily translate into a sensible auto. instead it's the same 4 pedals underneath, but you can't put any one of them, without having an e
phf[asciilifeform]: 􏿽ffect on some state, and the only pedal exposed pushes one out of based on moon phases and speed you're going
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-12-18 16:42:59 asciilifeform[6]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-18#1018888 << imho the traditional 'search-in-foo' erred heavily in other direction -- the proverbial 'auto with 4 sets of pedals', tho
phf[asciilifeform]: 􏿽http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-18#1018896 << not hypothetical, xemacs. main objection to xemacs from users "changed interface, so now i have to rewrite script", but made when there were like 5 scripts. now there's 5000 scripts, and a multiyear migration deprecation strategy fo
phf[asciilifeform]: 􏿽r "old style" and "new style" (new style being often worse take on what xemacs did 30 years ago)
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-12-18 16:46:27 asciilifeform[4]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-18#1018890 << the hypothetical 'vertical solution' from pov of most emacs aficionados 'wouldn't be emacs, it dun even have commodore assembly major mode!11' etc
phf[asciilifeform]: so it's kind of to your point
phf[asciilifeform]: emacs still depricates things, but it's always small petty "i'm going to rewrite all cases of foo-bar to bar-foo to be consisten!" but not "i'm going to rethink widget system"
phf[asciilifeform]: “Outsiders are shocked when things fall apart. Insiders are amazed the duct-tape held this long”
asciilifeform: ahaha yes
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-18#1018903 << asciilifeform vaguely aware of xemacs wars, but his sole exposure to it was in late '90s wundering wai rathead installs 2 emacses
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-12-18 20:34:56 phf[awt]: 􏿽http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-18#1018896 << not hypothetical, xemacs. main objection to xemacs from users "changed interface, so now i have to rewrite script", but made when there were like 5 scripts. now there's 5000 scripts, and a multiyear migration deprecation strategy
asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform's brother, already emacs veteran, pointed him to 'tru' emacs, and that was it )
phf[asciilifeform]: i didn't know anything about it at the time, but in restrospect the situation was exactly "a handful of genera veterans trying to make emacs into an architecturally sound foundation for a proper IDE"
phf[asciilifeform]: and of course the point of contention is that they were trying to turn it into a commercial product in the process, as a kind of proto-open-source hybrid
phf[asciilifeform]: i'm probably going to fuck it up, but energize was the commercial IDE offering on top of lucid emacs, which was to become xemacs after lucid disolved
signpost[asciilifeform]: hm, clion has things not in IJ "ultimate"?
signpost[asciilifeform] has been using that for years, love the thing.
asciilifeform: phf: interesting film. ( asciilifeform also recalled re naggum barfing at xemacs, tho not 'because payware')
phf[asciilifeform]: signpost, it's idea with a c/c++ mode
signpost[asciilifeform]: right, I'm wondering what clion has that UE's c++ support doesn't
signpost[asciilifeform]: at least in the python case, pycharm's pretty much what you get with UE plus python plugin
signpost[asciilifeform]: searching online for comparison of these kinds of tools is so loathsome, end up with a bunch of redditards/stackoverflows chirping unsubstantially
asciilifeform: signpost: hence wai gold standard is to grab the thing for yerself and try
phf[asciilifeform]: signpost, oh they must've backported it. when i originally installed clion (that must've been some time before vtools) there was no c++ support in intellij and they were talking that they will eventually port the code out into an installable plugin. they must've done it
signpost[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform: my understanding was that IDEA "ultimate edition" was the superset of the lang-specific IDEs
signpost[asciilifeform]: but I think my subscription lets me have clion et al anyway, so yeah, might as well go look
phf[asciilifeform]: and just to further clarifty when pycharm originally came out there was no support for python in intellij. thing ran as its own standalone ide for some time, until they added "python" plugin
signpost[asciilifeform]: looks like still WIP actually, lol
asciilifeform: 'Just noticed this issue is 17 years old! Hope my children will enjoy this but i'll probably retire before this is fixed.' << lol
signpost[asciilifeform]: yeah, looks like quite a lot more c/c++ specific stuff in clion.
signpost[asciilifeform]: makefile/cmake support in run configurations for example
phf[asciilifeform]: hmm, well i can sort of peer with multiple stations now. now to go over backlog and find all the pgpgrams
phf[asciilifeform]: can someone well connected please post their AT
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