Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2022-06-15 | 2022-06-17 → ↓
signpost: asciilifeform: some curve I plotted in a chartcrime app inspired by this https://www.lookintobitcoin.com/charts/bitcoin-logarithmic-growth-curve/
busybot[signpost|asciilifeform]: Current BTC price in USD: $20936.02
signpost: come on 19!
billymg: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-06-16#1006946 << every now and then i send money via wire (to myself) and always get asked (on both ends) what it's for. but i've found i can just say "remodeling" and/or "general expenses" and that's enough for them
bitbot: Logged on 2022-06-16 02:58:33 asciilifeform: fwiw no one ever demanded 'for wat'
billymg: in my case that's what the money is actually for, but not sure how that would go if trying to buy btc with it
billymg: signpost: with the ongoing celsius implosion we might get even lower
billymg previously thought ~22k would be the bottom
asciilifeform: billymg: iirc in march '20 bottom was ~3k
billymg: asciilifeform: from a top of 20k, yes
asciilifeform: ( which asciilifeform guesses is the actual bottom, consisting of 'humans' who bought with actual earned fiatola, after substracting the 'institutional' scum )
asciilifeform: *subtracting
asciilifeform: or, at any rate, was then.
billymg: the celsius implosion, btw, the inevitable end result for anyone who fell for the "btc lending" scam (in any flavor)
bitbot: (asciilifeform) 2022-01-19 billymg: the whole "don't sell your btc, borrow against it!" meme felt like such a huge psyop, often promoted by never-sell maxis
billymg: any "yield farming", "staking", "earn in your sleep! (just give us your keys)" variation
asciilifeform: 'gave keys' == 'sold'
billymg: yup
billymg wonders what the bottom is for the nasdaq
billymg: maybe a hair under 9000 would be my guess
asciilifeform: well in e.g. 1929, folx owned paper stocks on actual paper, so at least had value as toilet paper at 'bottom'
asciilifeform: today not even this
asciilifeform: so perhaps bottom is 0
signpost: amusingly, '29 was on par with a BTC drawdown, ~90%
billymg: asciilifeform: if bottom is 0, what is the value of usd then?
asciilifeform: == sov ruble, on that day
billymg: neat, sounds like fun
signpost: who wanted a boring death, as the perennial thread goes.
bitbot: Logged on 2022-06-16 15:14:45 asciilifeform: well in e.g. 1929, folx owned paper stocks on actual paper, so at least had value as toilet paper at 'bottom'
asciilifeform: wb shinohai
signpost: sorry I can't get it up again until tether implodes.
asciilifeform: wholly unrelatedly, crosspost before gets lost entirely in the lolcoin noise
awt[asciilifeform|signpost|billymg]: it's all about the bezzle rn
busybot[signpost|asciilifeform]: Current BTC price in USD: $20876.29
awt[asciilifeform|signpost|billymg]: who's gonna get the first < 20k print?
awt[asciilifeform|signpost|billymg]: asciilifeform: whatever you want to call the price output of busybot
busybot[asciilifeform|signpost]: Current DOGE price in USD: $0.05781
awt[asciilifeform|billymg|signpost]: I like to check doge since an acquaintance recently told me he bought $100k of doge.
signpost: in which the food crisis is solved by mass redditard suicide.
asciilifeform: hey apparently even thinking folx often come to believe they can 'model' pyramid. so prolly will never run out.
asciilifeform: billymg: apropos of nuffin, seems like one can't easily link to an /action in yer logotron
asciilifeform: ( the '*' aint clickable )
billymg: asciilifeform: the handle is clickable
asciilifeform: oh nm indeed
asciilifeform: the column shift confusing tho imho
billymg: imo should be the timestamps that are clickable
billymg: now that those are displayed in their own column
billymg: and is traditionally how it's done elsewhere on the web
asciilifeform: oldthrd asciilifeform was to link, re prev thrd
bitbot: (asciilifeform) 2022-01-19 asciilifeform: realizes that he has sumthing like a personal 'laws of robotics' for 'when to spend coin' (or rather, when not to) :
billymg: though would have to be both handle and timestamp, since timestamps get hidden below a certain viewport width
asciilifeform: dunno how useful the display of timestamps, esp. given billymg's spiffy 'and then x hrs passed' pheature
billymg: asciilifeform: which is why hidden on smaller viewports
billymg: but on larger viewports, also no need to have mile-wide lines of text, makes for shit readability
billymg: which is why i put e.g. nav into the right column instead of in the header
billymg: (but switches to header on "phone view")
billymg: it's similar to how in printed text books there is typically a generous margin
billymg: there is an ideal target for reading comfort, measured in number of characters per line
asciilifeform: billymg: a, see, asciilifeform uses vertical displays exclusively
asciilifeform: hence wai never bothered with these
asciilifeform: ( and given that these displays only available in 9:16, there's moar or less 0 win from horiz. margins on'em )
billymg: asciilifeform: i took that into account too. thought to myself "alf and probably others read on narrower displays, so should be sure to adjust layout accordingly". at 989px the timestamps are hidden and the nav goes to the top, and at 766px the handle and payload columns collapse into one
billymg still sees layouts all over the web where the "desktop" margins are maintained in the "mobile" view, resulting in text columns with 2-3 words per line
asciilifeform: billymg: fwiw even on asciilifeform's vertical display, there's a massive deadspace on the right where (on top of pg) chan list
billymg: asciilifeform: dead space on right while the chan list is on top? not sure i follow
asciilifeform: would make some kinda sense if it were 'frame' and could switch chans from it at any pt along the page, but still gotta scroll to top... so wainot have'em at top of pg like in asciilifeform's
asciilifeform: billymg: the chan list occupies chunk of right hand all the way along the scroll
billymg: when the chan list moves to the top, there shouldn't be any extra margin on the right
billymg: ah, right, that's intentional
billymg: asciilifeform: what's your viewport width, in pixels?
billymg: width??
asciilifeform: and in e.g. emacs, asciilifeform uses from 0th pixel to the last.
asciilifeform: 2160 width, 3840 height .
billymg: asciilifeform: ok, so 2160 actual pixels
asciilifeform: actual pixels
asciilifeform: ( what kind didja think )
billymg: "css pixels" lol
asciilifeform not knows how many 'css pixels' it ends up
billymg: people usually run high dpi displays at some ratio, like 1.5x, 2x
asciilifeform: billymg: rly? seems like epic waste
billymg: otherwise everything would require a magnifying glass to read
asciilifeform: why would it, if fonts config'd correctly ?
asciilifeform: i've simply set the dpi in xorg to the correct #
billymg: right, this is your "Xft.dpi"in xorg
asciilifeform: iirc (been a while)
asciilifeform: but mno, wouldn't remotely contemplate bitmap scaling, why the fuck buy a '4k' screen for 2-3k$ then!
billymg: asciilifeform: what does this website say is your width in "css pixels"? https://www.mydevice.io/
billymg: asciilifeform: i believe Xft.dpi is for font dpi
asciilifeform: seems to think: '1079px'
billymg: yup
asciilifeform: (how calculated -- nfi)
asciilifeform: also thinks it's 1920px in height
billymg: i think it's based on when 72dpi was considered the standard
asciilifeform: right but how it gets these from 2160 etc is mystery to asciilifeform
billymg: 2160/2 = 1080 (1px off, perhaps accounting for border on the window, no idea)
billymg: so you're at 2x
asciilifeform: rright but bitmaps display as expected
asciilifeform: (e.g. 10x10pixel actually shows up as such if screenshat w/ 'gimp' etc)
asciilifeform: and mouse cursor is ~4mm tall
billymg: sounds right
asciilifeform: so where's the 2x come from ?
asciilifeform must bbl shortly
billymg: 2x is the thing that makes 4k screen worth buying
bitbot: Logged on 2022-06-16 20:30:56 asciilifeform: but mno, wouldn't remotely contemplate bitmap scaling, why the fuck buy a '4k' screen for 2-3k$ then!
billymg guesses that the output of `xrdb -query | grep dpi` for asciilifeform will be "192"
billymg: "Xft.dpi: 192"
billymg just had a lox and cream cheese bagel for the first time in 3+ years, homemade bagel too
billymg: anyway, was wrong about the 72dpi standard, was actually 96. and that's where "css pixels" and "2x" comes from
bitbot: Logged on 2022-06-16 20:32:03 billymg: i think it's based on when 72dpi was considered the standard
billymg: and since (i'm guessing) asciilifeform's Xft.dpi is set to 192, resulting in 1080 "css pixels" of viewport width from his 2160 pixel screen, this puts it about 90px > the breakpoint at which the layout moves the chan nav out of the right margin and into the header -- so yes
bitbot: Logged on 2022-06-16 20:01:32 billymg: asciilifeform: i took that into account too. thought to myself "alf and probably others read on narrower displays, so should be sure to adjust layout accordingly". at 989px the timestamps are hidden and the nav goes to the top, and at 766px the handle and payload columns collapse into one
billymg: hrm, that got cut off weird: ...so yes, the empty margin would still be there, giving about 90-95 characters per line for the payload column
billymg: asciilifeform: yup, pretty much exactly what i was able to recreate here by adjusting my viewport to the same 1080px width you're using
billymg: (only mine not as tall)
asciilifeform: so, possibly see why loox oddly lopsided here
asciilifeform doesn't use any palpable margins in emacs or terminals, or in own logotron
billymg: asciilifeform: i thought you kept your code to 80 char per line?
asciilifeform: own code
asciilifeform: most of the time, working on heathen coad tho
asciilifeform: nor does asciilifeform hard-margin human-readable text (e.g. pest spec) when working on such
billymg: what's the purpose of the 80 char per line limit in your own code?
billymg: why not longer, to "fill the empty space"?
asciilifeform: ( tldr -- printer )
asciilifeform: printer w/ 80col, and asciilifeform writes on the margins...
billymg: i see
asciilifeform: maybe last 1 alive who does this; nfi
billymg: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-06-16#1007086 << i think this might be the answer here
bitbot: Logged on 2022-06-16 22:04:00 asciilifeform: nor does asciilifeform hard-margin human-readable text (e.g. pest spec) when working on such
asciilifeform: the lcd already feels painfully narrow as it is
asciilifeform has 3 of'em, cuz neither 'eizo' nor afaik anyone else makes a 6480x3840 display lol
asciilifeform: ( before anyone suggests '8k tv' -- not ever yet seen a tv that aint utter garbage for static text ; nor, suspect, will reasonable vga card ever support these )
asciilifeform is 1 of those people who can see pwm flicker at ~any~ freq. whatsoever, etc
billymg: i actually may have misinterpreted what you meant by "hard margin" when referencing the pest spec
billymg: hard margin means adding returns beyond x chars per line?
billymg: in my mirror of your pest spec, i didn't add any hard line breaks, but i capped the max-width of the text column (for reading comfort)
billymg: you'll find this in printed textbooks as well, and magazines, newspapers, fiction novels, etc.
billymg: text doesn't usually run to the edges, or even as far as the printer is capable of printing
billymg: and in magazines and newspapers text is often broken into columns, because the font is so small that a single column would result in two many characters per line
billymg: too* many
shinohai[asciilifeform|signpost]: 13C05a04n 07b08l03a09t10t11a 02h12a06n13d05l04e 07g08h03e09y 10s11h02i12t 06?13?05?04?07?
billymg: shinohai: the logs appear to say "no"
bitbot: Logged on 2022-06-16 22:35:13 shinohai[asciilifeform|signpost]: 13C05a04n 07b08l03a09t10t11a 02h12a06n13d05l04e 07g08h03e09y 10s11h02i12t 06?13?05?04?07?
billymg: err, hrm
shinohai[asciilifeform|signpost]: Bot echoes it back though xD
billymg: yeah, lol, weird
billymg: which means only in the logger www is it not rendered correctly
billymg: shinohai: i'm guessing this is some unicode thing
shinohai[asciilifeform|signpost]: Yeah it's a weechat script got me curious .....
billymg: shinohai: it's odd though because i've seen unicode printed in the logger before
bitbot: (asciilifeform) 2022-05-29 phf: thread 😂😂😂 no cap fr fr
billymg: uh-oh, did that crash the bot's blatta station
billymg: ok, so i won't echo the offending line again, but the line returned by this reference did crash the blatta station the bot was connected to
bitbot: Logged on 2022-06-16 22:48:39 billymg: shinohai: it's odd though because i've seen unicode printed in the logger before
billymg: !. uptime
bitbot: billymg: time since my last reconnect : 0d 0h 7m
billymg: awt: does the 9977 version fix the unicode crash?
billymg: awt: does the 9977 version fix the unicode crash? (sorry if dupe)
shinohai[billymg]: So emojis crashed it lol
billymg: yeah, it was some exception in python: unable to decode as ascii (or something along those lines, i lost it when i restarted the station)
billymg: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-06-16#1007078 << i just realized loper-os.org homepage does the same thing. if you scroll down past the end of the sidebar layout becomes "lopsided"
bitbot: Logged on 2022-06-16 21:54:43 asciilifeform: billymg: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/bmg_log_screenshit.png for ref.
billymg: awt: for reference, the error: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=c06w
billymg: asciilifeform: pretty much any website layout with a sidebar is going to look "lopsided" after you scroll past the end of the sidebar (yes, sidebar for logger is very short, but keep in mind was designed when plan was for each user to have his own channel)
asciilifeform: lol uniturd bug again?
billymg: asciilifeform: lol yup
asciilifeform: billymg: indeed, similar on my www, to house the kilometre of sidebar (where else to put it..?)
billymg: asciilifeform: when fully moved to pest i might remove the chan nav altogether
billymg: but i think the bigger point is: right margin > left margin != bad
billymg: i think you're just having some kind of ocd reaction because it's not the same as your logger
asciilifeform: hmm for sumreason thought my client would print the backlog as it getdata's
asciilifeform: apparently not?
asciilifeform not begridges billymg his layout, simply describing own preferred flavour where symmetrical if possible and tries to use most of display width
asciilifeform: *begrudges
asciilifeform: possib., but because not same as asciilifeform's anyffin else (other than own www, which doesn't spend much time looking at)
asciilifeform: at any rate, part of the win from having multiple loggers, folx can make what works best for'em
asciilifeform intends to stand up pestnet logger when billymg gets around to plugging in the db export thing
billymg: asciilifeform: see here
bitbot: Logged on 2022-06-12 18:04:51 billymg: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-06-08#1006534 << this is live now
asciilifeform: ugh why blatta barfed there ?
asciilifeform: 'UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xf0 in position 62: ordinal not in range(128)' but where was the uniturd ?
billymg: !. uptime
bitbot: billymg: time since my last reconnect : 0d 0h 0m
asciilifeform got the ...[see here] but then crash
billymg: asciilifeform: i suspect old messages being replayed somewhere, my main station has crashed 4 times now
asciilifeform: odd that they get decoded (attempted?) but not displayed
asciilifeform didn't see a single oldmsg printed after getdata'd so far
billymg: since this message didn't make it to the logs: i prefer to optimize text layouts for legibility and reading comfort, not "max chars per line"
billymg: something def clogged somewhere
asciilifeform: billymg: asciilifeform doesn't disagree, simply laid out desk so the center lcd loox like sheet of paper in center vision
billymg: let's see if this crashes the stations again: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-06-16#1007147
bitbot: Logged on 2022-06-16 23:42:02 asciilifeform: ugh why blatta barfed there ?
asciilifeform: not yet apparently
asciilifeform: ok then crash
asciilifeform: interesting
billymg: shinohai: perhaps he fixed in 9977 (i haven't updated yet, probably should)
billymg: crawlerbot probably down, i haven't logged into the ec2 box yet to look
billymg: !c uptime
busybot[billymg]: The bot has been up for: 55 days 7 hours 31 minutes and 57 seconds
crawlerbot[billymg]: billymg: last reconnect: 4h 48m ago; last restart: 4h 48m ago
billymg: ^ mega delayed response, stats also don't look right
awt[asciilifeform|billymg]: billymg: I'm currently baking 9976 which fixes the unicode crash. No crashes here either.
billymg: awt: nice!
awt[asciilifeform|billymg]: Someone mixed some shit in the salad looks like
asciilifeform: awt: see if can make a kludge where eggogs are caught & logged, but proggy not dies
awt[asciilifeform|billymg]: On 9977 it should not be possible to even broadcast a message with uniturds in it.
awt[asciilifeform|billymg]: 9976 allows unidurds in messages. Please don't send any uniturds until a reasonable number of people have updated. Available here: http://share.alethepedia.com/blatta/9976-fecal-sprincle.vpatch
awt[asciilifeform|billymg]: Perhaps phf can't help asciilifeform test that messages from uniturd handles are dropped and logged. This is very difficult to test in blatta, since it's not even possible to register a uniturd peer.
shinohai[asciilifeform]: awt: but muh fuzzing :(
billymg: ok, i'm on 9976 now, along with bitbot (crawlerbot next)
billymg: !. uptime
bitbot: billymg: time since my last reconnect : 0d 0h 1m
billymg: oh no, what are you doing bitbot
billymg: ^ upgrading to 9976 seems to have dislodged something on bitbot's station
billymg: (none of the messages are showing up in the logs, but i'm getting them in my console here)
asciilifeform: and died again, and on restart, again
billymg: asciilifeform: update to 9976, fixed the issue for me
asciilifeform upped to 9976...
billymg: !c uptime
asciilifeform: loox like replays work nao also
billymg: crawlerbot now on 9976 also -- seems to be a backlog of messages though (i see them replaying in the blatta logs)
bitbot: Logged on 2022-06-17 01:31:27 awt[asciilifeform|billymg]: 9976 allows unidurds in messages. Please don't send any uniturds until a reasonable number of people have updated. Available here: http://share.alethepedia.com/blatta/9976-fecal-sprincle.vpatch
crawlerbot[billymg]: billymg: last reconnect: 5m ago; last restart: 5m ago
asciilifeform: lol re ~errybody falling over like bowling pins
asciilifeform: awt: hm seems like not all replays get marked as such
asciilifeform: ( tho replays nao finally work! a++ )
billymg: updated the downloads mirror with the latest version also
awt[asciilifeform|billymg]: asciilifeform: you only get one replay notice
asciilifeform: awt: per spec oughta for each msg that's outta order, neh
asciilifeform: otherwise how the hell woudlja know it's a replay, if mixed in w/ currents
asciilifeform: ( see screenshit )
awt[asciilifeform|billymg]: Notice means everything after was received after the timestamp in the notice. Otherwise quite noisy imo
asciilifeform: noisy, arguably, but old and new msgs shouldn't intermix w/out any mark
awt[asciilifeform|billymg]: Imagine replay notice for all bazillion lines when syncing
asciilifeform: ( ideally would magically appear upstream in text, but 'teletype' of irc not allows this... )
asciilifeform: awt: is exactly what asked for in spec tho
asciilifeform: or you're left guessing
awt[asciilifeform|billymg]: Could possibly add "end of replay" notice
asciilifeform: 'If the Timestamp of a GetData response (or the earliest message in a chain of responses) pre-dates that of the message most recently displayed to the console, the operator must be informed of this, by prepending said Timestamp to the text emitted to the console.'
asciilifeform: awt: 'end of replay' mark still dun tell you precisely which msgs were replays, neh
asciilifeform: only that some , in a segment, were
awt[asciilifeform|billymg]: How important is that?
asciilifeform: imho quite
asciilifeform: so you have some way of knowing each of'em wasn't just nao sent
asciilifeform: picture, somebody logs in after 2wks at sea
awt[asciilifeform|billymg]: Incidentally jonsykkel unaffected
asciilifeform: starts seeing ancient msgs intermixed w/ current convo
asciilifeform: awt: he prolly uses his client, which evidently not suffered from given eggog
jonsykkel[asciilifeform|billymg]: smalpest chads just cant stop winning
awt[asciilifeform|billymg]: asciilifeform: in most cases you won't see later messages until you've got the oldies
asciilifeform: awt: asciilifeform expected so, but in screenshit can see that apparently not
asciilifeform: likely asciilifeform even created a bit of fork, too, by speaking into a pestron which was waiting for 'head' of current msgs
asciilifeform: ( tho afaik forkage not handled presently )
awt[asciilifeform|billymg]: asciilifeform: which is the message not from you that got intermixed in the replay?
asciilifeform: awt: seems like only mine, aha
asciilifeform: intermixed
asciilifeform wonders what will happen when these are getdata'd by the folx currently offline
asciilifeform: will they end up 'in the past' on acct of netchain ? or in 'correct' order by selfchain
asciilifeform: ( is there anyone to whom this q not makes sense? )
awt[asciilifeform|billymg]: asciilifeform: will have to reload netchain/selfchain logic into my head before I can contemplate
asciilifeform: awt: no particular hurry
asciilifeform: but imho interesting q, and prolly needs elaboration in spec too
asciilifeform: ( what happens to msgs spoken into a pestron which is 'behind' or fulla chain gaps )
asciilifeform: or rather, what oughta happen
asciilifeform: ( 2 separate q, lol )
asciilifeform: ( imho 'ideal' pestron would in fact display msg by netchain, reordering as req'd (by default; could toggle and order by timestamp, say )
asciilifeform: naturally impossible w/ irc frontend tho
asciilifeform: and , apropos, when reconnect, oughta 'prod' peers, and quickly see if yer on 'same page' with'em
awt[asciilifeform|billymg]: I had been working on this update over several days. Fortunate timing that it came out of the oven tonight. Or perhaps almost fortunate.
asciilifeform: ( iirc atm you have to actually speak , to learn that yer 'behind' )
asciilifeform: awt: heh
awt[asciilifeform|billymg]: asciilifeform: someone has to speak to you
asciilifeform: possibly the 'ignores' send out to keep nat ports alive oughta be 'prods'
asciilifeform: ( or at least some % of'em )
asciilifeform: if done this way, would be virtually impossible to end up speaking into a desynced pestron
asciilifeform: (tho not ~entirely~ impossible)
awt[asciilifeform|billymg]: asciilifeform: true but would reduce the entropy of IGNORE command bodies.
asciilifeform: imho would suffice to send prod at a $prodinterval in place of an 'ignore' there
asciilifeform: where suggested interval is, say, 1hz
asciilifeform: let operator decide which he prefers, moar entropic chaff or smoother sync
asciilifeform: ( overall flavour of pestronics, in asciilifeform's pov -- that which can be made to individual taste of $operator -- oughta be, rather than to force agreement where none is req'd )
asciilifeform: observe that per spec, (other than in 'rekey') nobody ever ~has~ to send an 'ignore'
signpost blows on mic
asciilifeform: wb signpost
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