#asciilifeform | 2022-06-07

asciilifeform remembers the long-gone era when was actually worthwhile to write trojans which lift wallets, i.e. when microshit victims still had sumthing to lift

shinohai: Far simpler now to just pwn browser since folx enjoy storing over9000 tokens in metamask wallet (not that majority worth the time).

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-07#1104976 >> 'There's almost always a single link which may be used safely, that link to itself.' << annoying if you need to move the thing elsewhere in memory

dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-07 01:02:37 scoopbot: New article on A Syndication of Verisimilitudes: Linking Sentinels

asciilifeform: verisimilitude: is 1 reason wai the lispm people had a dedicated 'nil'

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-07#1105006 << wtf is the point of these ? ( asciilifeform not used 'telegram' or similar aol-style chats in many many yrs , doesn't miss'em )

dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-07 03:20:02 vex: cool shit. everything i've ever said on telegram is super spic

phf: asciilifeform: for friends who are not on the spectrum

thimbronion: telegram users usually still somewhat on spectrum. those off the spectrum entirely can be found on whatsapp.

asciilifeform: many of these aols considerably, afaik, moar complicated to run than irc...

asciilifeform: and with all kindsa odd misfeatures

phf: thimbronion: that's a us centric perspective

asciilifeform: ( does twatter still cap msg to 128bytes? )

thimbronion: phf - I see - perhaps western hemisphere thing

thimbronion: or north/south america thing

phf: thimbronion: yeah, eastern europe is significantly telegram oriented, but in u.s. e.g. edgy zoomers do telegram because "putin with balalayka"

asciilifeform: phf: asciilifeform not used 'telega'; is it effectively same 'aol' ? or has some interesting orc-specific feature ?

asciilifeform recalls shinohai's experiments with pest on pnoje. theoretically could have a working pestron on pnoje, and with e.g. barcodes for key loading, tho obv. a laugh from security pov. but illiterates could use, in principle, if one could somehow sneak it into 'appstores' etc

phf: asciilifeform: would also like it all to burn in fire, but that's a silly perpesctive re "significantly harder than irc". it's smooth, when it comes i dunno how to call it, audio visual telepresence if you will :> it sits in memory and keeps the connection live (unlike irc, that can "disconnect" no such thing in messangers), so if you're walking down the street and see a cool rigged jeep you can it's just monkey trivial to send the

phf: picture to your jeep friend and follow it up by a comment

asciilifeform: a, videochats

shinohai: pest on android pnoje easy as weechat + glowing bear

asciilifeform: from this pov pestron would satisfy, also has 0 notion of 'disconnect'

phf: asciilifeform: not just videochats, can do "photo followed by voice to text text comment or typed text comment or an audio clip recording" depending on context

asciilifeform: right, traditional ipnoje 'grunt into videophone' culture

asciilifeform: shinohai: glowing bear ?

phf: asciilifeform: this has nothing to do with "culture", and your chip on shoulder dismissal of it is why there's 5 people in here :>

shinohai: glowing bear jstronic frontend to weechat relay

asciilifeform: phf: well in fact not dismissing, hence thought 'nuffin in principle prevents lolcat aficionados riding on a pestnet'

asciilifeform: would in fact work quite well for their use case, if were packaged for their nintendos

asciilifeform not personally has motivation to attempt this, but seems possible in principle imho

shinohai would like to see pest on a 650 Nintendo famicon system .....

shinohai: *6502

phf: asciilifeform: but i'm saying that this particular perspective is limiting, because will leave rough edges where "why retards no use, probably because retarded" rather then "you have to flip flag n_x and twiddle relay proxy to send picture to grandma"

asciilifeform: shinohai: has it got a serial port ?

asciilifeform: phf: (again theoretically...) a pestron implementing sect. 5 would not need 'flip flag xyz'

shinohai: Can be hacked to use one https://www.nesdev.org/wiki/Serial_Cable_Construction

asciilifeform: i.e. worx exactly like e.g. 'skype' but with ~erry~ peer able to play role of the hq which breaks you outta nat

asciilifeform: ( thimbronion's current blatta, yes, 'stick shift', requires some massage to keep peerings going )

asciilifeform thinks he grasps phf's point re 'rough edges' . most of'em however artifacts of draft impl. rather than intrinsic to a p2p net. i.e. there's no particular reason wai one couldn't have an outwardly aol-shaped pest client, so long as has a means to exch keys (say, with barcode <-> camera rub)

signpost also uses telegram with frens

asciilifeform: ... no particular reason wai couldn't send videochat etc. over pest, or whatever other payload

signpost: imho yep, the problem with these is the centralization, not whether it has pictures, w/e other media.

asciilifeform: if anything, asciilifeform suspects would have better throughput than the conventional centralized skypes

signpost: phf: there are probably a lot of w/e's between normies and ourselves that have at least brushed against the notion of decentralization, would use something that provided what they're used to atop it.

asciilifeform recalls 20y ago when 'normies' were quite happy to use e.g. 'directconnect' w4r3z

asciilifeform: ... and moar generally, folx dun need to be programmers to want to escape the idjit corral

dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 15:31:54 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039833 << i may've let this slip, oughta answr directly -- what i'm proposing is to depart from last 25yrs of internet decay, where errything came to consist of 'herd of cattle' and 'farmers' to corral, milk, and occasionally devour the former; and instead experiment where people stand up on own legs.

signpost: nerds were doing their jobs corrupting them back then.

signpost: now they're all getting their cocks sucked by satan in SV.

signpost: mhm, not only don't need, but conversely the programmers need other types to sum to "civilization"

asciilifeform: e.g. mp's camwhores proved conclusively that there is no 'min iq' or particularly heavy training needed to irc. and pestron not intrinsically moar complicated than subj.

asciilifeform: re 'why' -- imho would be a rather effective didactic intro to concept of wot, for the otherwise innocent.

phf: signpost: i think that nobody particularly cares about their opsec, because they don't have reasons to, and that's not going to change, no matter how many assanges. only way "hacker" tool becomes popular is if has trappings of hacker tool, more so than substance.

phf: and the easiest way to kill any kind of prospects of a tool being widely exposed is to make it into "effective didactic intro" :P

asciilifeform: phf: asciilifeform (perhaps naively) suspects that 1337 w4r3z remains, as 20y ago, an effective draw for all sortsa folx

signpost: phf: yup, I agree "this thing is moar secure" isn't something anyone gives a shit about except us.

asciilifeform: at least in the past, warez was a cultural common ground for just about erryone

signpost: private trackers are still huge.

asciilifeform: aha

signpost: "last" tracker could be built on pest.

signpost stating obvious

asciilifeform: signpost: 'moar secure' is an abstraction to the current crop of net folx, asciilifeform suspects largely because none of the various aols meaningfully differentiated from that pov. i.e. all suffer from 'copyrasts took down xyz', 'can't load x from country y', 'oops no moar trump forum', 'oops erryone's arse photo leaked to nyt', etc ~equally

signpost: yeah, the claim would be lost in the noise. everything means its opposite in marketing-world

signpost: "made with 100% real food!"

asciilifeform: lost in 'lemon market'(tm)

asciilifeform supposes that the central q of this thrd is 'do the 'cattle' in fact want outta their 'stalls' or not'

asciilifeform does not know answr

asciilifeform: the continued popularity of e.g. bt w4r3z suggests that many folx do 'want out', and not simply 'demented programmers'

signpost: hell, p2p was a way out of the culture *I* was born into.

signpost: "fuck you mom and dad, I'm going to listen to bad religion and share bill hicks vids with my friends"

asciilifeform: signpost: even in '80s, 'sneakernet p2p', copy tapes, floppies, 'didactic intro to wot' hand-cranked

asciilifeform had 'most memorable experiences w/ a comp' from hand-carried floppies, and likely aint the only 1 here who did

shinohai: Same, I thought duplicating a friends BASIC cassettes (and vice-versa) was the height of technology at the time.

verisimilitude: It's still the case for me.

verisimilitude: ``Hmmm, do I spend literally twenty hours uploading this to my server so he may download it, or just bring it to him on a flash memory when I visit later?''

signpost: think I'm slightly younger than some of y'all, was still shitting my diaper in late 80s

signpost: but had same experience later with zip drives and burned CDs

asciilifeform: 'sneakernet' essentially same, no matter what kinda vessel

phf: asciilifeform: everyone is gamer girl now, played mario the 90s, but i was in the 90s, and will report that the common folk you're talking about were all various forms of freaks

phf: for example and to the point of warez, can't look at masses as masses, gotta look at individual motivations, and i suspect by bulk it'll be "did warez because price+difficulty < legit price" always. biggest attrition from warez market has been subscription services and insta stores. "ever since steam i don't warez" likewise with netflix, hulu, hbo, etc.

phf gtg

verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-07#1105016 The moving machinery can take that into account, but yes.

dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-07 10:56:14 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-07#1104976 >> 'There's almost always a single link which may be used safely, that link to itself.' << annoying if you need to move the thing elsewhere in memory

verisimilitude: I didn't consider that, but it doesn't doom the idea; I was largely considering situations with more abstract link fields, but the general message holds.

asciilifeform: verisimilitude: having to diddle erry single 'nil' during a (e.g. gc) move is ugh imho

verisimilitude: Lisp has already made several decisions that rather solidify NIL, but a NIL isn't the ultimate way to indicate absence of a link.

asciilifeform: verisimilitude: elaborate?

verisimilitude: Firstly, in all of my work, I'm trying to envision alternative models, so imagine those cells ``diddling'' themselves.

verisimilitude: I gave an example in the article.

asciilifeform: verisimilitude: 'the iron will do it' != 'phree'

verisimilitude: I gave an example in the article of a situation in which there was no spare value for a NIL.

asciilifeform: 'may structure the problem so that a value may be its own synonym or the like' << 'atom'

verisimilitude: I'll be writing another article soon, concerning a medical database.

verisimilitude: Rather than have a man's spouse, say, be ``no one'', it could be listed as himself, for this.

signpost: lol

verisimilitude: It's a valid way to indicate lack of a spouse, signpost.

signpost: that one can do something is not by itself reason.

asciilifeform: ^

signpost: if you want every value to resolve to your giant-list-o-words (which I still think is brain-damaged, given there's you know, actual work on the structure of language that one could draw upon), why not "nobody" instead?

verisimilitude: Elaborate.

signpost: http://verisimilitudes.net/2021-08-08 << here you list several words related to "abandon", rather than a datastructure which models the separate and common meaning of the prefixes and suffixes.

signpost: let alone that a- and bannum are latin.

signpost: you refer to this kind of parsing as "compression" but it's not; it's the fundamental structure of language, a syntax tree, and not an integer index of a table.

verisimilitude: English is incredibly irregular.

verisimilitude: A more beautiful iteration is possible with Latin, I realized.

verisimilitude: A major issue with precisely modelling a language is that people keep adding words to them, but this isn't an issue with Latin.

signpost: a proper latin model oughta allow for on-the-spot synthesis of new "words" from existing parts.

verisimilitude: Notice the plan with English, at least initially, was to avoid this precise modelling, and to simply store every word mutation.

signpost: the machine oughta even be able to figure out what the new term might mean.

signpost: sure, I grant english is a hellish amalgam

verisimilitude: I agree, and it will, but it will require just a little bit of ``friction'' with which I couldn't expect an English user to cope.

signpost: fair enough; upstack, why not reference to "nothing" or "nobody" instead of "I'm married to me"?

verisimilitude: The machine will need to ask the writer ``This new word seems to have this form. Is this correct, or do some changes need to be made?''.

signpost: (and this too, it'd be nice if the machine could trace no-body up to a general notion of negation)

verisimilitude: It's just an example of how to avoid a nobody value.

signpost: I'm asking you why to avoid

verisimilitude: Nobody exists not.

signpost: mm, trying for logical positivism or w/e?

verisimilitude: It avoids a value that must be treated particularly specially.

verisimilitude: It replaces a system of everyone and no one with but everyone.

verisimilitude: It's perhaps akin to ``not null access'' in Ada.

verisimilitude: Elision will make sense, if I live to breathe life into it, so I must prevent it from dying with me.

signpost doesn't begrudge anyone doing weird shit, even for art's sake.

signpost: just asking questions.

signpost: whether "nothing" exists is plenty fun to ponder (maaaaaan)

verisimilitude: I don't begrudge anyone asking questions.

verisimilitude: A Bug's Life

verisimilitude: I loathe those whose ``technological'' opinions can be summarized as ``Why wipe my ass when Amazon can do it for me cheaper than I can do it myself?''.

billymg: verisimilitude: i avoid hacker news so i don't have to know that blog posts like that exist, tyvm

asciilifeform: lol confessedly bogus tale

asciilifeform: 'So which is the bigger risk: An impersonator who convinces a service provider that they are me? ... Me permanently losing access to all of my identifiers?' << as if the answr were anyffin other than obvious

billymg: asciilifeform: wait, it's not even real? i missed that while skimming

asciilifeform: cheap agitprop.

asciilifeform: billymg: 'In the meantime, please rest assured that my home is still standing.'

billymg: ah, honestly thought he meant the concrete foundation/frame

asciilifeform: billymg: doubt it, the pics all lifted from googleimages

billymg: lemme guess, this got updooted to the top of the HN homepage already?

asciilifeform has nfi, found the link right here in #a

verisimilitude: I mentioned it, billymg, because I thought it could be interesting.

billymg: and yeah the tl;dr is hilarious. "we need centralized bureaucracy to rule over us forever to protect us from the all too common event of... lightning striking our homes"

verisimilitude: I liken Bitcoin to cash, in that if I set my cash on fire, I don't cry about how unfair cash is.

asciilifeform: but if one were to take the tale as factual -- yes, derp, if too dump to have offsite copies of anyffin, to get a 100$ fire safe, to even fucking grab yer wallet on yer way out , yes, deserve to fucking die in a ditch.

asciilifeform: *dumb

billymg: asciilifeform: in the fiction claims he has a fireproof safe but isn't "lightning proof"

asciilifeform: cheap agitprop.

asciilifeform: ( for what specifically -- possibly for implanted slave chips? -- nfi )

billymg: also says can't use bank safety deposit box because 240 british pounds per year

asciilifeform: rright.

verisimilitude: I avoid having many accounts, pay for my server rental and domain name with an adult checking account, and use passwords I can remember instead of cheap plastic keys that can be lost.

verisimilitude: I also have basic familiarity with the people around whom I live, unlike the average bugman.

verisimilitude: ``Oh verisimilitude, son of grizzled old jerk I knew.''

asciilifeform: 'an asteroid has flattend my house and errything in it but me, and i have nuffin stored off site' 'you have failed basic iq test, too dumb to life, gasenwagen'

verisimilitude: ``Spare a penny for the suicide booth, kind stranger?''

asciilifeform: 'Скажи, а почему ты / Вместе с танком не сгорел?'(tm)(r)

verisimilitude: ``Society has gone from knowing the people around you to being randomly fucked over by corporations with no recourse? Oh well, better make the best of it.''

asciilifeform: see also various ancient threads.

dulapbot: (trilema) 2014-11-30 asciilifeform: if you are pwned while using 'brainwallets', simply shows that your brain is defective

dulapbot: (trilema) 2015-06-10 ascii_field: so no, i have no patience for the 'brainwallets suck because you are stupid' argument.

dulapbot: (trilema) 2015-06-10 ascii_field: my point is that everyone here is either using brainwallet in some form already (backup of your key in a postbox in japan, symmetrically encrypted with pw in your brain, and postbox # also in your brain) OR is one stint in pow camp away from 'civil death' (total loss of key)

dulapbot: (trilema) 2015-06-24 ascii_field: (and before someone chimes in with 'so don't use brainwallet' - ~every~ wallet that you can get to, but mr schmuck can't, because you know where you buried it, etc. is in fact a 'brainwallet')

shinohai: Even Bitcoin wiki "doesn't recommend" but tbh BIP39 is kinda awesum.

asciilifeform: aaand see also...

dulapbot: (trilema) 2014-06-03 asciilifeform: a successfully 'mined' brainwallet is... a failed iq test.

dulapbot: (trilema) 2014-10-28 asciilifeform: brainwallet was known to be retarded for some time << brainwallet is a fully-automatic iq test.

asciilifeform: 'not recommended', naturally, by the reich tools

shinohai: superseekrit * 12 xD

← 2022-06-06 | 2022-06-08 → ↑