Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2022-03-18 | 2022-03-20 → ↓
signpost: humans aren't fungible, nor are their relationships.
signpost: but a transaction is a kind of relationship.
crtdaydreams: A relationship is a kind of transaction.
crtdaydreams: It's metacircular.
signpost: go ahead and define the terms then, for me.
signpost: you are perhaps using the word relationship more narrowly than I did.
crtdaydreams: A relationship is a human-to-human interaction, it does not have to have a net value, that being an exchange, be it of social merit or otherwise. I.e. I have a relationship with my mother, she loves me unconditionally as either a by product of evolution, god or some unknown force. Be it human will if you want. This is a ``transaction'' but there is no net __exchange__.
signpost: seems perverse to call this a transaction.
signpost: the sun and the earth have a particular relationship. this does not mean they have business with each other.
crtdaydreams: i see, you definitely have a much broader definition.
signpost: money is a fine tool but it is not the root of the world.
crtdaydreams: no, the transaction is
crtdaydreams: but transaction and relationships are one in the same
signpost: or rather, being that it has been made so, the world is dying.
crtdaydreams: a transaction does not have to involve money
crtdaydreams: think of it this way, a venn diagram
crtdaydreams: on one side you have society and the other economy
crtdaydreams: if you (quite literally) mathematically find the intersection of the two, we have politics.
signpost: this is still a strange separation, like asking me to say whether I prefer sleeping or digesting.
crtdaydreams: the study of economics bases the world off the "transaction" and the study of society bases the world off the "relationship"
crtdaydreams: but really, those two constructs are the same thing within the intersection of politics.
signpost: this sounds like one of those nonsense binary political arrangements you were dismissing above.
crtdaydreams: well in reality it's the basis of politics.
signpost: if I enter into a transaction with you, this means that we are agreeing to formalize the relationship between ourselves according to a system of rules we denote and demonstrate before others.
crtdaydreams: everything in politics revolves around solving socio-economic equations
crtdaydreams: we do not have to demostrate or denote those rules before others
crtdaydreams: there is a difference between a public and private transaction
signpost: nonsense, the idea that the rules of the private transaction are to be honored is a cultural construct you didn't invent.
signpost: "some people will come beat me if I lie to this person, because if I do he will tell them"
signpost: that sort of thing.
crtdaydreams: that's where my point is made.
signpost: that the subjunctive threat is enough just makes us imaginative social creatures.
crtdaydreams: there is no difference between relationships and transactions
crtdaydreams: a transaction influences and is thus influenced by relationships and vice-versa
signpost: first, words are tools. you cannot make the argument that they simply *have* certain definitions.
signpost: what you can do is work to construct *useful* definitions.
signpost: so the case you must make is why it is useful to me to conflate relationship and transaction.
signpost: earlier I gave a broad definition of relationship, the usefulness of which I can defend at length.
signpost: I then used the definition of one to build a definition of the other. it cannot then be that they're equivalent.
crtdaydreams: The way of the Tao
crtdaydreams: I intend to fully explain this in an essay.
crtdaydreams: With detailed and concise definitions.
signpost: don't know that you're the first to call all relationships transactional.
signpost: my arse sits in the empire that exported that one
crtdaydreams: If it makes more sense to you my political view is not on creating hierarchies nor pulling them down. It's making them easier to climb.
crtdaydreams: A smooth gradient if you will.
signpost: I'm still on why I should conflate transaction and relationship.
signpost: oughta clarify that before declaring allegiances to whichever great march.
crtdaydreams: Ok. Say a transaction is abstractly an exchange of goods.
crtdaydreams: Broadly, goods could be intellectual, physical, immaterial.
crtdaydreams: And a relationship is abstractly an exchange of status.
signpost: put the *is* down and make the case for it.
signpost: how is my mother exchanging status for having let me parasitize her to live?
crtdaydreams: She could be making transactions that are otherwise impossible because of you, those transactions have a direct influence on her relationships.
signpost: you have to back up before what you feel is self-evident and explain *that*.
signpost: she wants status, what status?
crtdaydreams: I was going to explain that.
crtdaydreams: Broadly, status refers to a cybernetic interaction with those around her, like neurons in a brain people communicate with the immediate and that information is spread across the whole network (society). Status refers to that weight/bias that she has. I.e. how much influence society (the whole brain) has on her, and how much she has on it.
signpost: she didn't fuck my dad because she wanted social points.
signpost: this is a notion unconsciously absorbed from facebook and co.
crtdaydreams: That's too open ended.
crtdaydreams: Why did she fuck your dad then?
crtdaydreams: Was it biology? Her parents (encouraging her to continue the genealogy or whatever), her friends, financial gain?
signpost: are you familiar with marx's notion of alienation?
signpost: because this is precisely it.
signpost: modern "last men" in Nietzsche's terms fuck as signaling, theft, anything but the real.
signpost: this does not mean that it was always the case, even if dragging a higher-level symbol like "transaction" is satisfying, in that it makes the alienation inevitable.
signpost: I'll speak of my own relationship. my wife appeals to me in herself, and these qualities that appeal are not rendered into my account to spend.
signpost: they are there in the person and remain.
crtdaydreams: Exactly.
signpost: my witnessing them and their effect on me is not a fungible transfer of the qualities into my hand as a tool.
signpost: exactly what
crtdaydreams: I don't think I'm equipped to explain myself. Perhaps my formulation is half-baked.
crtdaydreams: wb verisimilitude
crtdaydreams: For a relationship to be a transaction there does not have to be a fungible exchange.
signpost: you're dispensing with much of the existing context of the word to make it fit here.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-18 23:34:10 crtdaydreams: I know. The point being I'll simplify the structure to match a simplified and fluff-less content-style.
signpost: crtdaydreams: if a transaction is not a formalized exchange, there's not much left in the definition.
crtdaydreams: signpost: perhaps this can be resumed at a later date, at this point I just sound like schizo.
signpost: I'm fine to park it.
crtdaydreams: Perhaps after I've written a few of the essays. One of which you might like; A Criticism of Kazyinsky's Work.
signpost: yep, was going to say that it might be clearer what you're after in long form.
crtdaydreams: With predetermined explicity defined definitions that I can refine over the course of a short essay, I should be able to convey my point in transactions == relationships.
mats: very edgy
signpost: mats with the high impact commentary
signpost gets himself some tea
mats: some men have a tendency to think of relationships transactionally
verisimilitude: I do, when it benefits me.
signpost: mats: I purposely avoided the age interpretation, but it's there eh?
crtdaydreams: mats: I'm stating the opposite is also true, transactions are relationship.
mats: very uninteresting discussion
verisimilitude: I agree.
crtdaydreams: well, sorry for wasting your time I guess.
signpost: mats: eh, lazy dismissal of youthful stupidity also uninteresting.
signpost: output of that is all around.
verisimilitude: All anyone ever does with IRC is waste time.
signpost: verisimilitude: by weight, by trying to use it as an amplifier for conceits rather than mechanism to remove them.
crtdaydreams: I pity the average log-browser.
verisimilitude: Rephrase that.
signpost: were folks able to burn through each other's stupid ideas without falling back on ^ they might do other than baw that the rectangle ain't entertaining tonight.
mats: i still read the #b-a logs, its not a waste of time
mats: depends who is chatting
verisimilitude: This is always my response when someone apologizes for wasting time on IRC.
signpost: mats: not losing sleep over whether you're entertained.
signpost: b-a was a failure, aside entertaining.
crtdaydreams: Wasting 45 minutes on trifle discussion of an uninteresting topic an proceeding to get nowhere, in all honesty it would've been better to read HN for those 45 minutes.
crtdaydreams: verisimilitude: better?
signpost: crtdaydreams: eh, don't be a coward and react to it. there's nothing there.
verisimilitude: Toughen up, crtdaydreams.
crtdaydreams: Not cowardice. Sarcasm.
signpost: mats: those entertaining logs failed at what mormons could pull off, consider.
signpost: crtdaydreams: as he says, toughen up.
signpost galls at that mormons actually have castles.
verisimilitude: I toughened up, crtdaydreams; why, one of the first things mp did to me was insult me, and now he's dead.
mats: mormons have had more than 100y to build their empire tho
crtdaydreams: verisimilitude: kek
signpost: time, but also working algorithm
signpost: verisimilitude: had no more constructive thumps on the head than from that guy.
signpost: anyway "get out of here until you're not a bitch" is how american fathers made a generation of redditards.
mats: https://www.ers.usda.gov/webdocs/outlooks/93390/ocs-19f-01.pdf "Interdependence of China, United States, and Brazil in Soybean Trade"
mats: https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=ZdzTRkojzwU "ShmooCon 2014: Controlling USB Flash Drive Controllers: Expose of Hidden Features"
mats: https://github.com/airbus-seclab/cpu_rec "Recognize cpu instructions in an arbitrary binary file"
mats: mostly old news tho
crtdaydreams: Any of you put a guestbook on your server?
signpost hasn't seen a guestbook on a website since 90s
crtdaydreams: er, no. not that kind of guestbook.
mats: https://www.pnas.org/doi/pdf/10.1073/pnas.1918896117 "Why East Asians but not South Asians are underrepresented in leadership positions in the United States"
signpost: hm, they actually mentioned the intepersonal aspects.
signpost: rather than just "systemic racism!"
signpost: shoving all the triggering aside about racism, there's plenty of incompatibility to work around.
signpost: mats: my sense has been that the SA demo is way more comfortable banding together and working ahead.
signpost has seen whole teams that somehow got away with not hiring a single person outside their ethnicity at $megacorp
signpost: "who would dare say anything"
signpost to bed, night all
mats: yes
mats: over my career i've run into numerous bootlickers at my level who refuse to share salary info, even when i offer it up first
mats: its always east and se asians, and they often told me some shit about how its confidential and some variation on how they're 'holding their cards close' like its us slaves at a poker table together instead of us as individuals playing heads up with mgmt
mats: shits weak
mats: this is why asians are good slaves
mats: blacks never gave me this lip
mats: i wonder which firms sell market compensation research for various roles to enable market rate employers to price their comp properly
mats: i know chief executive sells data for executive comp but i'm not interested in that
mangol: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-19#1085844 << "Whereas extensive research has examined the "glass ceiling" faced by women, little research has examined the "bamboo ceiling," whereby Asians appear disproportionately underrepresented in leadership positions in the United States."
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-19 00:57:58 mats: https://www.pnas.org/doi/pdf/10.1073/pnas.1918896117 "Why East Asians but not South Asians are underrepresented in leadership positions in the United States"
mangol: bamboo ceiling
mangol: the woke save at the end is good too: "organizations should understand the differences among different cultural groups and diversify the prototype of leadership"
mangol: we should get in on this boondoggle. i wish organizations would diversify the prototype of productivity and pay me for lisp hacks
mangol: by chance, another woke pearl from an unrelated source: "How can we at least reach consensus that there is a problem?"
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-19#1085822 << lol whatcha doing here then ? i dun recall installing any glue traps, can walk whenever
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-19 00:49:18 crtdaydreams: Wasting 45 minutes on trifle discussion of an uninteresting topic an proceeding to get nowhere, in all honesty it would've been better to read HN for those 45 minutes.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-19#1085839 << asciilifeform has once used this tool ( reversing a disk controller ) , it sorta work (use with 'binwalk')
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-19 00:56:20 mats: https://github.com/airbus-seclab/cpu_rec "Recognize cpu instructions in an arbitrary binary file"
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-19#1085821 << we gota coupla useful artifacts outta that era (v, trb, current wot) tho arguably nothx to the dope-addled maniac or the kilometres of wank
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-19 00:48:49 signpost: b-a was a failure, aside entertaining.
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-02-04 22:14:39 asciilifeform: or, for that matter, his (admitted!) cocaine. imho still shows typical effects, even tho supposedly quit.
thimbronion: BingoBoingo: what is your new job? Also, please run a pestron.
thimbronion: mats: glassdoor no good?
asciilifeform: !q seen BingoBoingo
dulapbot: BingoBoingo last seen here on 2022-02-28 12:49:43: In the past month US down ~19% versus Brasil's Real, 5.3% versus Peso Uruguay
asciilifeform: thimbronion, mats : asciilifeform suspects that folx are tight-lipped re pay largely from fear of discovering that they sit on bottom of the scale in given org
asciilifeform: rather than 'ohnoez boss will find out that i blabbed'
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-19#1085831 << also, importantly, successful, but not 'too successful' (consider e.g. scientology. 'zero to hero' in <20y, from practical joke to private navy, fbi infiltration and scuttling of all indictments against the org, to... what, today? some yachts & palaces and notmuch else)
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-19 00:52:39 mats: mormons have had more than 100y to build their empire tho
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-06-08 asciilifeform: afaik state of the art is 'church-mafia hybrid' model, e.g., scientology
asciilifeform: not that afaik they at any pt had any strategic aims ~other~ than 'moar yachts'
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-19 05:46:21 mangol: we should get in on this boondoggle. i wish organizations would diversify the prototype of productivity and pay me for lisp hacks
mats: thimbronion: its useful, but anybody can print words there, so not necessarily reliable
mats: asciilifeform: i dunno, scientology is still strong afaict
mats: maybe not as strong as the mormons, who have had their own state for a century, plus significant membership in the us ic, international reach and so on
verisimilitude: Scientology is so funny, because it's obviously not true, but the very religious can't explain how that be so without seething about their religion at the same time.
verisimilitude: It boils down to ``my cult is older and has a better reputation''.
verisimilitude: So what's the deal with discrete logarithms of elliptic curves?
verisimilitude: Does the Ada runtime properly handle select delay statements, even with a blocking system call; do I need to test this myself?
verisimilitude: I get the feeling it won't.
verisimilitude: It would be nice to be able to use the delay statement, rather than pass the desired delay directly.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-19 14:15:05 verisimilitude: So what's the deal with discrete logarithms of elliptic curves?
verisimilitude: I know little of them.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-19 16:09:27 verisimilitude: Does the Ada runtime properly handle select delay statements, even with a blocking system call; do I need to test this myself?
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-19#1085887 << dunno, i've been to their 'cathedral' in wash dc and they seemed to be leasing out most of it to misc. riffraff
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-19 13:24:10 mats: asciilifeform: i dunno, scientology is still strong afaict
asciilifeform: there were plasma screens (yes) showing propaganda films, with substantial burn-in
asciilifeform suspects glory days past
asciilifeform: been a while since heard of'em running over critic with bulldozer too
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-06-08 asciilifeform: infiltrate fbi, run uppity heretics over with bulldozers at night, etc.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-19#1085870 << yep, not sorry for any of these, nor the rest.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-19 11:34:27 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-19#1085821 << we gota coupla useful artifacts outta that era (v, trb, current wot) tho arguably nothx to the dope-addled maniac or the kilometres of wank
signpost: was a comment about n00bs, and "wasted time"
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-19#1085898 I'll do that. I'll need to finish what I'm working on, and test it when designing the next package, but I'll get around to it.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-19 18:29:24 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-19#1085892 << iirc requires tasks enabled. try it
mats: asciilifeform: thats pretty normal among church folks
mats: the place is only fully occupied on sundays
mats: staff might be in 9-5 m-f and a few hours on weeknights and saturday for various activities
mats: even harvard rents out space for groups
thimbronion: Didn't notice the logo in previous versions of the pest spec, asciilifeform, nice.
asciilifeform: thimbronion: thrd
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-11 17:07:10 asciilifeform: meanwhile (possibly for billymg to play with...) baked a simple icon for pestism to use on asciilifeform's www sidebar. billymg et al feel free to fiddle with it if you have time, propose changes.
asciilifeform: mats: had nfi
verisimilitude: It's so reassuring that society is going to collapse because, while hardware must work, whatever some dipshits throw together is fine for the software.
verisimilitude: If I don't want a recvfrom to be able to choke a sendto in my design, I probably shouldn't even use a protected object. The UNIXen probably even make these atomic with respect to one another, don't they? That just turns the original higher design over the UNIX garbage into a package with a limited private type as a subprogram parameter. I suppose it will be fine, if I were to do that.
verisimilitude: I'll cross that bridge when I reach it.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-19 21:10:25 verisimilitude: It's so reassuring that society is going to collapse because, while hardware must work, whatever some dipshits throw together is fine for the software.
asciilifeform: meanwhile, cement tester at 666+k.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-19#1085919 << normally they fill up w/ stolen cc, but this happens often enuff that aint nooseworthy
verisimilitude: I suppose using the C Convention in Ada handles all aliasing concerns.
crtdaydreams: in miniluv lulz: YouTube Odysee
verisimilitude: I grow more disgusted by the day.
crtdaydreams: Do note that the companies mentioned are producing pr0n, although it's arguable that after a certain point you'd become completely desensitized to it.
verisimilitude: I could guess.
thimbronion: the lowery guy is either radioactive or retarded
verisimilitude: ``Amateur employee jerks off in pod while he thinks no one is watching.''
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