gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-17#1039625 << I would be glad to run an IRCD on one of my machines.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-17 15:04:18 asciilifeform: aims to persuade all the folx he regularly speaks to in #a to set up relays. that way never again anyone has to give a fuck about 'ohnoez, fleanode sux', 'moderators fascists', etc
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: a++, watch for instructions in coming days. folx who link up will need to pgpgram signed auth turds etc.
asciilifeform: !w poll
watchglass: Polling 16 nodes...
watchglass: 185.163.46.29:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 84.16.46.130:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 108.31.170.100:8333 : (pool-108-31-170-100.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.159s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=688072 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.148s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=688072
watchglass: 54.39.156.171:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.112s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=688072
watchglass: 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.144s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=688072
watchglass: 205.134.172.28:8333 : Alive: (0.155s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=688072 (Operator: whaack)
watchglass: 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.222s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=688072
watchglass: 192.151.158.26:8333 : Alive: (0.234s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=688072
watchglass: 143.202.160.10:8333 : Alive: (0.268s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=688072
watchglass: 213.109.238.156:8333 : Alive: (0.337s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=688072
watchglass: 176.9.59.199:8333 : (static.199.59.9.176.clients.your-server.de) Alive: (0.215s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=412055 (Operator: jurov)
watchglass: 185.85.38.54:8333 : (tlapnet-38-54.cust.tlapnet.cz) Alive: (0.233s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=688072
watchglass: 103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.608s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=688072
watchglass: 54.38.94.63:8333 : Violated BTC Protocol: Bad header length!
watchglass: 205.134.172.6:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.)
asciilifeform: !q seen-anywhere BingoBoingo
snsabot: BingoBoingo last seen in #agriculturalsupremacy on 2021-06-15 15:26:50: Thank you
asciilifeform: !q seen-anywhere mats
snsabot: mats last seen in #asciilifeform on 2021-06-10 20:36:08: i read he wants to incorporate a city in tx, so issuing company scrip makes sense
asciilifeform: ACHTUNG mod6 -- it would appear that asciilifeform is no longer able to reply to PMs on fleanode
asciilifeform: this afaik covers the folx i wanted to ping, who not appeared yet on dulapnet, but may wish to know that i'ma perma-move there in coming weeks.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-17 16:44:06 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i'm still sitting there, to stay in touch with the several folk who haven't moved here. i expect that after we get an actual net (vs. '1 box w/ hardcoded pw' barrel organ) going, will check outta fleanode permanently.
asciilifeform: snsabot will continue to live in the chans where it had been originally invited, until a) inviter requests otherwise b) fleanode perma-croaks or otherwise makes difficult the continued presence of the bot.
asciilifeform: dulapnet is logged by dulapbot (and by any relay operator, obv., with bot of his choice plugged into localhost)
asciilifeform: !q seen-anywhere jurov
snsabot: jurov last seen in #asciilifeform on 2021-05-17 08:03:15: slackware?
asciilifeform: if there's anyone i forgot -- plox to write in.
thimbronion: Got ratbox ircd running on my server as well. I understand nothing has been decided yet, etc.
zx2c4: Did this survive the tempest?
asciilifeform: zx2c4: see log plz
asciilifeform: zx2c4: from here, if yer lazy.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-15 20:59:36 asciilifeform: trinque: already did. it's extremely spartan atm, no nickserv or anyffing of the kind
asciilifeform: welcome to dulapnet, zx2c4 .
zx2c4: asciilifeform: i was futzing with baud rates when you sent me that link.
zx2c4: thanks for the welcome, whew
asciilifeform: zx2c4: this really is a pilot box, i expect login mechanism will change in near future (see logs)
asciilifeform: funnily enuff it already worx considerably better than fleanode, 0 disconnects for me to date
zx2c4: And I guess you've got some convoluted mirroring bot scheme for the time being?
asciilifeform: zx2c4: actually atm there's exactly 1 box.
zx2c4: I mean from freenode
asciilifeform: zx2c4: presently 2 instances of bot, 1 here, 1 on fleanode, logging into same db.
zx2c4: Cool
asciilifeform: signpost (aka, on fleanode, trinque) is making another relay; and coupla people expressed interest in similar
asciilifeform: ( my take on this summarized )
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-17 15:04:18 asciilifeform: aims to persuade all the folx he regularly speaks to in #a to set up relays. that way never again anyone has to give a fuck about 'ohnoez, fleanode sux', 'moderators fascists', etc
thimbronion: Why was mp insistent on joining a larger irc net, while that effort was under way? My impression at the time was that a small net with low i/o capacity would not survive attack.
PeterL: I think there was a fear that if we made a small network it would be vulnerable to DDOS attack, and existing large networks would already have means to counteract that?
asciilifeform: thimbronion: i dun think he ever explicitly said a 'why', but fella was fixated on attracting low-effort strangers (the camwhores & misc. scum) for a rather long time, so possibly why
asciilifeform: ddos i suspect has 0 to do with it, even half-dozen geographically-dispersed boxes are prohibitively expensive to ddos simult.
asciilifeform: (assuming they're serious boxes, on actual backbones, rather than 3rd world bullshit)
asciilifeform: thimbronion, PeterL : the other thing was his megalomania -- very much did not like 'little network for self & associates' but only schemes where 'put whole planet under the yoke one day! thousandyearreich!!!' etc
asciilifeform not interested in construction of reichs; rather, the opposite.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-17 15:08:34 asciilifeform: has wider political aims, here as elsewhere -- to show folx, even 'seen through a keyhole', what decentralization looks like -- in contrast to the typical 'star-topology' systems peddled by dependence-culturing sociopaths
thimbronion: I will be curious to see if the new net draws fire.
asciilifeform: thimbronion: i expect at the very least some token spambot efforts.
PeterL: I'm curious to see if it draws more users? Will other people come and ask to use for their own channels?
asciilifeform: PeterL: see yest.'s thrd re subj
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-17 19:06:15 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-17#1039737 << btw i was wundering whether even makes sense to have the pretense of 'channels' on dulapnet.
PeterL: other networks sell themselves on the number of users, this one may sell itself on the highest servers per user ratio?
asciilifeform: my current conception is that all folx who can be aroused to register into wot oughta be able to speak, until & unless make a nuisance
asciilifeform: but not otherwise.
PeterL: not that you need to sell the network for use, does not generate money
asciilifeform: PeterL: my other notion is that erryone who wants to be taken seriously oughta run a relay & peer w/ others.
asciilifeform: the req'd expense is not significant in modern times.
asciilifeform: this way we can approach something like the irc which existed in 1980s.
asciilifeform: rather than fleanode & related idiocies with central committees.
verisimilitude: Why does this network need to ``sell itself''?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: exactly doesn't
asciilifeform: who wants to be on it -- let him bake a relay & find peers.
asciilifeform: no more thrones.
verisimilitude: Democracy sucks.
asciilifeform: who is careless and tolerates spamola, etc. -- will get unpeered by his peers.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: no 'democracy' involved, just folx voluntarily associating/deassociating.
verisimilitude: So if I were to run a node here, I'd be expected to moderate it?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: ever used (or listened to) a long-dist. voice radio net ?
verisimilitude: This is such as ham radio?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: ham radio has various strange traditions of 'discuss only x,y,z', so perhaps not best model here
verisimilitude: No, in any case.
asciilifeform: but picture instead items like (in usa) 'cb'. where main expectation is that one not make it impossible for others to speak, and otherwise relatively loose morals.
asciilifeform: my hypothesis is that folx currently tuned in can agree re what constitutes spamola. (if eventually we have 'over 9000' participants -- not that i expect -- and not all unanimous re subj, then the net can and ~must~ fragment, and imho this is proper.)
PeterL: re channels: makes sense to serate discussion by topic if the crowd is larger, if only a handful of people talking a few times per day then channels are not needed
asciilifeform: PeterL: see also.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-17 19:12:08 asciilifeform: ... i'm reminded of an ancient sovok joke, where crew of a plane gets stranded each on separate island, and the american d00d when rescued is found to have built a 'whites' and 'coloureds' mess hall on his etc
asciilifeform: imho irc went in wholly wrong direction of development when the large nets formed.
asciilifeform: when people come to 'there aint room enuff in this town for the both of us' they oughta simply live in separate nets.
PeterL: so would it be better if every project had their own network entirely instead of having channels in a larger network?
asciilifeform: no 'channels', just nets.
asciilifeform: correct.
asciilifeform: no 'users', ideally, similarly, just peers.
asciilifeform: rather like the old gossiptronics proposals, but why not try to make out of existing scrapyard material and see where the impedance-mismatches will be, before trying to make entirely new protocols.
verisimilitude: I agree.
asciilifeform: imho it is possible to re-create something very much like the 1980s-90s net, if you can simply expel the opportunistic vermin and keep'em out long-term.
verisimilitude: It's always fun to see Slack or Freenode having issues, and joking on the network I prefer ``Gee, I thought everything was down, but we're having no issues.''.
asciilifeform: and imho this process is work for individual operators, rather than any kind of centralized politburo, whatever morons choose to call theirs, kpss, usg, tmsr.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: any individual machine can 'have issues'
asciilifeform: i do not necessarily laugh at the misfortune of others, until & unless they are operating a 'palace', i.e. artificially imposed dependence on central machine.
asciilifeform: fwiw i'd like to get dulapnet 'de-palaced' asap.
PeterL: I was looking at the ircd-ratbox, looks like it needs a consistent nicklength across the network, is there a standard length that people use?
asciilifeform: PeterL: not afaik. wouldn't be much sense in having unlimited length, given line length limit
asciilifeform: if anyone has strong opinions on subj, this is a good time to put on record.
PeterL: looks like the default is 9, that seems pretty tight
asciilifeform: 9 is ludicrous; in my current config iirc is 32
asciilifeform: (for 'unreal' that is)
asciilifeform not set up 'rat' yet
PeterL: 32 is a nice number, easy to remember
asciilifeform: btw this is a golden time to point out that even THIS doesn't have to be 'world standard for all time' -- simply, any two relays who want to peer will have to agree on certain constants.
asciilifeform: does NOT imply that 'planet must collectively agree'.
verisimilitude: Mocking Slack is funny, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: funnier still when yer sitting next to several boxes on each of which it runs and eats 3-4GB of ram
verisimilitude: It's funny when a paid chat service has worse uptime than hobbyist IRC.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: cuz 'enterprise' shitware.
asciilifeform: ( next you'll be surprised that mswin crashes while exist linux boxen w/ decade+ uptime etc )
verisimilitude: That's more than a difference of degree.
verisimilitude: Software is increasingly being written by idiots who don't even aim for proper functioning; it's just a game to them.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: the difference was more marked in the days when linux was a project by and for people with souls exclusively
asciilifeform: to summarize -- the key enabling tech for 'return to net for people w/ souls' is the wot.
asciilifeform: 'jedem das seine'(tm)(r), let the vermin scurry with their fellows; people -- talk with people.
asciilifeform: re: spam control in near term -- ACHTUNG tuned-in folx -- if any among you have static ip and would like your nick to be constrained to connection from same, plox to pgpgram asciilifeform . alternatively 'let live' until signpost brings up deedbot and we nail down a mechanism.
verisimilitude: I qualify.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: a++, pgpgram (signed w/ yer key) and i'ma try and do the whole pile in 1 go in day or 2
asciilifeform: (unless we've swapped the world by then..)
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: dealing with some fires locally, Will try to catch up on the net migration thing when I can get sit/read/think free for it
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: aite. i rec to get on dulapnet tho, nfi how long fleanode-corpse will continue to twitch
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: it takes all of 2min.
asciilifeform: atm i'm sitting in both.
verisimilitude: I'm not familiar with this. Shall I simply sign the four octet IP address with my key?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: mno, good hygiene is to write e.g. date/time, 'in re: $linkedthread, i'll be connecting from $ip1,$ip2,...$ip_n until further notice', pgp sig.
verisimilitude: Alright; for the logs, I was aware of the uncleanliness of this.
asciilifeform: optionally encrypt to asciilifeform (if yer very shy re ip. imho not much point, it'll come out eventually as you connect to other relays)
asciilifeform: if you put in the open, there'll be no need to send it again to signpost et al
asciilifeform: ^ all of above is for the scenario when some joker finally shows up and tries to put 100GB of liquishit in the tube ^ otherwise i'ma keep the pilot box as-is, w/ toy auth
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: there's a strong chance that at some unspecified time asciilifeform and/or snsabot will not be able to receive msgs on fleanode.
asciilifeform: and there will not necessarily be a visible (outside of log www & dulapnet) indication.
asciilifeform: already i am unable to send or answer PMs there.
BingoBoingo: Ok, today is not the day but I will but this on the crisis board
asciilifeform: a++ BingoBoingo
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: crib sheet ftr.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-15 22:06:55 asciilifeform: 205.134.172.3:6667
BingoBoingo: Thank you
asciilifeform: np
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: see log for any further changes to it; (and in general, most of last 3pgs of log is already via dulapnet)
BingoBoingo: ok
asciilifeform: atm the only functioning logger there is asciilifeform's. i expect this will change soon.
asciilifeform: (imho erry relay operator oughta plug in a bot, into localhost)
dpb: i am connected from the machine that you host for me, and if a problem with my nick arises in the future, i can gpg about it
asciilifeform: dpb: worx
asciilifeform: dpb: when we get >1 relay, i expect can config clients to rotate if 1 is down etc
asciilifeform: ^ anyone else who intends to connect to asciilifeform's relay strictly from the box he leases from asciilifeform -- plox to indicate ^
asciilifeform does think this aint optimal re isp-related convs -- but i'ma let folx do what they want
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-17 16:45:58 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: 1 of the uses of #a is for asciilifeform to inform isp subscribers re outages; which i still cannot do if the sole relay lives in my own rack.
asciilifeform: ideally the 1-box thing does not continue for long enuff to make this subj matter
asciilifeform observes -- already 8 of us..! if we get 8 relays -- already will exceed capacity of end-life fleanode substantially
asciilifeform: hm, 9, by nao
asciilifeform: and iirc 2 moar who came to test.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039833 << i may've let this slip, oughta answr directly -- what i'm proposing is to depart from last 25yrs of internet decay, where errything came to consist of 'herd of cattle' and 'farmers' to corral, milk, and occasionally devour the former; and instead experiment where people stand up on own legs.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 14:21:31 PeterL: other networks sell themselves on the number of users, this one may sell itself on the highest servers per user ratio?
asciilifeform: imho the existing tech is adequate for this experiment.
asciilifeform will answer q's if any concretes not clear to someone, but for nao bbl
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039883 << this is a typical example of the explosion of complexity which must be tolerated in exchange for nice-to-have GUI-specific features.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-18 14:45:02 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: funnier still when yer sitting next to several boxes on each of which it runs and eats 3-4GB of ram
gregorynyssa: another example: text-editors versus Microsoft Word or OpenOffice Writer.
gregorynyssa: the latter does have some useful features, but the mental cost, and cost in CPU/RAM/disk, is out of proportion.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: 'must' is bogus there, there were similar guis in '90s at 100x smaller mass.
asciilifeform: hell, in '80s. see also.
asciilifeform: even microshit's wordprocessor used to ship on coupla floppies. (and essentially same item, featurewise, as the current one)
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: 'slack' (chat proggy the earlier thrd was about) weighs what it does because it is simply a rebadged 'chrome'.
asciilifeform: bloat is not the 'cost' of anything, gregorynyssa , other than of tolerating the perpetrators of bloat.
asciilifeform: stop tolerating -- and make it stick -- and bloat will disappear , one way or another.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: see interesting recept piece re guiism, pertinent.
asciilifeform: *recent
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039826 << ftr i fully support this. one of the things that drew me to the old republic was its denouncement of the 'star-topology'
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-18 14:18:44 asciilifeform: not interested in construction of reichs; rather, the opposite.
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-17#1039741 << i agree that channels seem kind of silly with only a dozen or so users, however i'm not sure how i feel about "no 'channels', just nets"
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-17 19:06:15 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-17#1039737 << btw i was wundering whether even makes sense to have the pretense of 'channels' on dulapnet.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-18 14:33:55 asciilifeform: no 'channels', just nets.
billymg: i liked earlier proposal of want chan? maintain relay
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-16 18:48:14 asciilifeform: was thinking in re: 'dulapnet' -- imho would be fair play if he who wishes to have a chan, contributes a machine for relay.
billymg: reason being, let's say there is a healthy group of 40 active users on dulapnet, 30 of which are running their own relays, under 'no chans, just nets' anyone wanting to continue a discussion that users in main channel are tired of will lose out on the robustness of the 30 relays
billymg: not even necessarily 'tired of' but only 'tired of in this one room where we all congregate'
billymg: perhaps it still works though, and the new net now has 5-6 relays consisting of the users wanting to join in the other topic. so not the robustness of 30 relays, but more than a single node at least
billymg: but even so i'm not sure i see the harm in the 'one relay grants you one chan' policy either
billymg: a policy like that still ensures it doesn't bloat into another fleanode
asciilifeform: billymg: imho 'net' is a fundamentally more solid abstraction than 'channel'. there's no reason why a given human operator could not live on N nets (defined as 'group where when 1 speaks, the others rebroadcast')
asciilifeform: the troo p2p topology i propose removes all kindsa fundamentally palace-flavoured concepts -- 'joining', 'kicking', 'banning' -- and replaces simply w/ freedom of association, i.e. peering & unpeering.
asciilifeform: i.e. absolutely flat topology, yet w/out any 'democracy' or any '-cracy' at all.
asciilifeform: at the risk of repeating myself -- no 'policies' either, at any level beyond individuals and their personal preferences for which others to peer with.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039951 << when said this, was thinking moar of a quid pro quo, 'want me to host yer chan? host mine'
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-18 17:57:17 billymg: i liked earlier proposal of want chan? maintain relay
asciilifeform: already did say, tho, that imho 'channels' are a misfeature of old irc.
asciilifeform: (as are 'users'. with modern machinery can have simply 1 entity -- the relay.)
billymg: asciilifeform: interesting, that clarifies it a bit more for me
asciilifeform: p2p net. which, despite various posturing, mp wanted like a dog wants beets.
asciilifeform: billymg: np. don't hesitate to ask re concretes.
asciilifeform: (or even re abstracts..)
billymg: asciilifeform: the big question i have in my head right now is, will it be at all possible for someone without a relay of their own to participate in any capacity?
asciilifeform: billymg: why not ?
billymg: well if person == machine
asciilifeform: billymg: i'm old enuff and orc enuff to have used a shared telephone line, for example.
billymg: ...which was my follow up, if someone runs relay on their laptop
asciilifeform: family shared a line w/ another family
asciilifeform: similar thing
billymg: and home ip changes, or shuts lid
asciilifeform: billymg: you wouldn't run a relay on a dynamic ip or lappy etc., no.
asciilifeform: would run it instead on whatever type of box you currently znc on, in the general case.
billymg: asciilifeform: ah, gotcha. so just that at least one relay operator on the net needs to allow "regular users" to connect to their machine
asciilifeform: 'have a friend'
billymg: asciilifeform: yeah, disregard the laptop question, was answered by "shared telephone line"
asciilifeform: potentially could even pay a pittance to someone w/ a reachable ipv4, and have him 'host' you. which is similar to what happens in bad old 'platformism' but with 1e7 choices of provider instead of 1
asciilifeform: aite
asciilifeform: the idea, billymg , is to have the subordinate type of connection be an exception, rather than the rule
billymg: asciilifeform: so in dulapnet, instead of running znc on my rk, i'd run a relay. and if i find someone on twitter who wants to see what we're up to, they could connect to my rk, rather than having to run their own relay right off the bat
asciilifeform: correct.
billymg: neat, yeah that sounds pretty ideal
asciilifeform: if he starts spamming/flooding , yer peers politely ask you to drop him.
asciilifeform: note, with now having zero illusions of seekricy in re plaintext transmissions, no one cares who is tuned in to ~hear~
asciilifeform: net participants only have reason to care re who is transmitting garbage (and to certain degree can mute it w/out unpeering, as w/ 'killfiles' on good ol' usenet)
asciilifeform: but general expectation oughta be, imho, that at any given moment, a net consist of people who are willing to hear what all of their fellows are speaking.
asciilifeform: similar in fact to the way bitcoin net worx from pov of a tx sender.
asciilifeform: so, to work out a simple example, you may have a net consisting of perl enthusiasts. then there is a schism, and you will have two nets, one of e.g. catholic and other -- of protestant perl users.
asciilifeform: then, one day the churches reconcile, and they can organically become 1 net again if they so wish.
asciilifeform: etc
asciilifeform: at no point does anyone have to declare jihad. simply they walk off to separate nets by severing links.
asciilifeform: irc as we knew it took the shape it did in the days when a serious racked box cost, per month, what a taxi medallion cost, and end users were connected via 300baud modems.
asciilifeform: today -- different constraints.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039986 << incidentally the default 'see what up to' oughta be to read the www log.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-18 18:46:22 billymg: asciilifeform: so in dulapnet, instead of running znc on my rk, i'd run a relay. and if i find someone on twitter who wants to see what we're up to, they could connect to my rk, rather than having to run their own relay right off the bat
billymg: asciilifeform: right, i guess i should've said, "stop in and say 'hi'"
asciilifeform: in a sense, this is already what was happening , they already connected to your rk to e.g. read log
asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform: the key bit is that asciilifeform proposed no new software.
asciilifeform: in important sense this is simply 'fundamentalist' irc.
asciilifeform: moreover, it isn't even the case that the 'idea', such as it is, is novel in any sense. for all i know 1e7 folx already were doing it.
asciilifeform: this is the kind of thing one would not know about unless someone personally links you up.
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039864 << this line made the significance of your new proposal click for me btw
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-18 14:35:13 asciilifeform: rather like the old gossiptronics proposals, but why not try to make out of existing scrapyard material and see where the impedance-mismatches will be, before trying to make entirely new protocols.
asciilifeform: this is imho the major reason why one hears 0 about this kinda thing in any public forum. it doesn't create a 'katamari' that strokes the author's/organizer's ego by growing, growing
asciilifeform: ... and creates nothing to control, to 'policy' over, to ride to fame/fortune, real or imaginary
asciilifeform: nothing to mp over.
Aerthean: I think I'd also like to create a relay, unfortunately I only have a VPS that I could host it on. I have no network aside from Cell at home.
asciilifeform: billymg: aha, i simply had the thought that one does not immediately need new software to make p2pism work, beyond some very simple spam gating.
asciilifeform: Aerthean: even vps theoretically works. remember, there is no expectation of confidentiality or authenticity beyond what is strictly required against ddos/spam.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 14:29:47 asciilifeform: but picture instead items like (in usa) 'cb'. where main expectation is that one not make it impossible for others to speak, and otherwise relatively loose morals.
asciilifeform: all that is absolutely req.'d is a stable ipv4 and a box on the level of perhaps i486 to go w/ it.
asciilifeform: ... and someone to peer with.
billymg: asciilifeform: growth in members is still desirable though, no? if for no other reason than the pile of work is far greater than the number of hands
Aerthean: In that case, I don't expect much trouble. Although if we eventually move to some kind of different system I probably won't want to host it there.
asciilifeform: billymg: it's desirable for the people for whom it's desirable.
asciilifeform: i.e. if you like perl, and wanna meet more perlists, then absolutely.
asciilifeform: but 'the net' in my scheme no longer is a collectivist entity that has 'desires', if this makes sense.
billymg: asciilifeform: that makes sense
asciilifeform: Aerthean: you wouldn't want to park secrets on a vps, but in this case the secrets (peering creds) aint very valuable.
asciilifeform: i.e. a spammer/griefer learns them, can inject garbage, until the key is revoked. which i'd expect would happen ~immed.
Aerthean: These days I'd almost expect that it would get lost in the noise, even as plain text.
billymg: this seems much more the previously discussed "castles among a republic" model than meganet irc
Aerthean: If just plain text, it's not interesting
asciilifeform: billymg: it's literally ~identical to the orig. irc, adjusted (in the direction of simplicity) to modern realities of iron
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-18 18:52:20 asciilifeform: irc as we knew it took the shape it did in the days when a serious racked box cost, per month, what a taxi medallion cost, and end users were connected via 300baud modems.
asciilifeform: really is all plain text, aside from when someone pastes pgpolade in
asciilifeform: Aerthean: see parallel thread (via fleanode) btw, in the log at this very moment.
asciilifeform looking forward to getting the fuck off fleanode permanently
billymg: asciilifeform: right right. i'm just musing on how it seems much closer to what was talked about before as the desired model -- castles (chans, then) among a republic --and how it's coming about now
Aerthean: Yeah, I've been following along. I keep wishing to have more useful time to contribute, difficult to do more when brain gets tired from work.
asciilifeform: Aerthean: the beauty, imho, here, is that no mega-builds required, little to no new software, 0 deep mathematics.
Aerthean: asciilifeform: That's true. I skimmed through the IRC protocol document last night, and found it straight forward.
asciilifeform: billymg: imho not an accident that we did not do it before. (see upstack.)
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-18 18:40:09 asciilifeform: p2p net. which, despite various posturing, mp wanted like a dog wants beets.
asciilifeform: Aerthean: no even need to modify the existing softs much (if at all)
Aerthean: I've been trying to take your comments to heart. Understand, at least to some extent, the things you plan on running.
asciilifeform: Aerthean: all i personally plan on running is a relay or 3
asciilifeform: (and a coupla bots, which you've already met)
asciilifeform: my notion is rather low-tech -- to return to '80s-style 'consenting adults' networking
asciilifeform: doesn't require elaborate philosophies, organizations, 'policies', new softwares, solutions to tricky mathematical conundrums, etc...
asciilifeform: revisiting this -- imho is better to forget the 'kibbutz' mode of thinking , it is fundamentally statist.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-18 19:07:49 billymg: asciilifeform: growth in members is still desirable though, no? if for no other reason than the pile of work is far greater than the number of hands
asciilifeform: (i.e where some 'devise great builds' and others expected to toil in same)
asciilifeform: observe how quickly e.g. bvt lost interest in e.g. ffa when mp took off his mask
asciilifeform: this, i suspect, was because his interest in the subj was externally motivated.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-02-04 13:46:08 asciilifeform: mp was talented mountebank, a la barnum, and in #t maintained an addictive, to many folx, atmosphere of 'движуха' (untranslatable, but roughly 'errything in motion!!', 'happening!')
Aerthean: No, everything must pass through 5 different committees, multiple organizations, with at least 30 different levels of administration....! /joke
asciilifeform: i personally would rather -- in my non-commercial hours -- work strictly with the internally motivated.
asciilifeform: heh
asciilifeform: ... strictly with internally-motivated, even if it means that several yrs at a time go by w/ asciilifeform having no one to collaborate with.
asciilifeform: i can live with this.
asciilifeform: (the 'extraverts' or whatever these poor crippled folx call themselves nowadays) cannot, generally. imho to be pitied.
asciilifeform will bbl