(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: good for you!
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: why not actually buy the components and build yourself a desktop computer? take pics and document the process too and you've got a great post as well.
(trilema) diana_coman: mats: no problem; and do ask in #o chan if there's anything unclear in there.
(trilema) diana_coman: BingoBoingo: dunno, fwiw I rather think my previous piano-play xp actually helped a lot re typing-without-injuries.
(trilema) diana_coman: mats: seriously, as aggressive as I might seem to you, maybe read the #ossasepia logs and figure some help out.
(trilema) diana_coman: so uhm, don't do that?
(trilema) diana_coman: there are also exercises and all that but honestly if that's bad I can't consider the keyboard+mouse "fine"
(trilema) diana_coman: I don't actually know mats' age.
(trilema) diana_coman: mats: sucks; but dunno, maybe really you need a custom-made keyboard /mouse? afaik from others it can make wonders; if the problem is that bad something is seriously wrong there.
(trilema) diana_coman: mats: which of them is that with the burned out & debilitating, the cyber nonsense?
(trilema) diana_coman: mats: isn't your main goal now to make enough to escape? logically then you should go for whatever gets you the most money faster, no?
(trilema) diana_coman: mats: isn't that something you can do from anywhere though? ie why not get out first (esp if otherwise strong pull so presumably the later you leave it the harder it gets)?
(trilema) diana_coman: mats: so what's your concrete plan there and why is it slowly /in fits and starts?
(trilema) diana_coman: mp_en_viaje: just on paper.
(trilema) diana_coman: ahahaha
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: asciilifeform: yes, except I have only 2 hands and about 100001 things to make with them.
(trilema) diana_coman: ah, hm, that's a point; yes, I think I will (though I do need to write stuff down there, huh).
(trilema) diana_coman: I can see the overbulky angle.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: how are you building that escape-wealth?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: welcome mats
(trilema) diana_coman: but I'd certainly want to hear bvt's thoughts on it.
(trilema) diana_coman: mp_en_viaje: fwiw I looked those last days at the fg each and every way I could and I still like it; the only difference is that now I have to figure out some time somewhere and make one with own hands.
(trilema) diana_coman: mats: there are in #o quite a few people who did that, maybe you can learn something there?
(trilema) diana_coman: mats: wouldn't you want to become active? what help do you need there?
(trilema) diana_coman: mats: no; I upped you to figure out what you are actually doing since you seemed to have become again active; why does that strike you as aggressive?
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: onth MP really is principled and that's all I'll say.
(trilema) diana_coman: mats: is being here among those new hobbies or what?
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: as does principly insane though I stumble on English grammar there.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: insanely principled works.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman shudders.
(trilema) diana_coman: !!up mats hi mats, what are you up to those days?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: cool; do shout if you need to, lol.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I've deployed billymg's vpatch on younghands.club so let me know if you still see any trouble there.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: do ask if there's anything not entirely clear there.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: are you trying to re-enact here the sort of in-group signalling that went so marvelously before or what?
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: ugh, I honestly can't stand this "free republicans" shit.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman will bbl
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: I suppose I should add in the spirit of full disclosure that I will go as far as positively steer away from direct coordination due to past experience (of which the above "question" gives quite the clear flavour re nothing changed).
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: as I'm running out of time currently and people are waiting for me, I'll answer the question you never actually asked: I'll interact gladly with asciilifeform's outputs, both physical artefacts and blog posts; and I'll provide feedback on those gladly; I am however extremely tired of attempting direct coordination on anything that is not one of those 2 things.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: asciilifeform: I think I described in quite detail in #o and you were tuned in, no? but here for quick link: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-16#1006573
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: asciilifeform: do me a favour and judge me as a person, make your determination & rate me accordingly, I'm fine with whatever it might be.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: what "this is the republic *here*" and all that.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: if he's harmless, what's it all to you, there's no sense there.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: (also, let me point out that making a "decision" as to whether people are republicans/free in own right based on whether they pledge allegiance to you or to someone else is communist in action if nothing else)
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: 1. I have no idea what fatwa are you talking about 2. how is that different from "if you work with MP, I won't work with you" ?
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: asciilifeform: how will you know it then? based on what?
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: asciilifeform: so ASK THE QUESTION ffs.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: asciilifeform: right; and you'll "know it" based on whether I continue working with MP or not, right?
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: asciilifeform: do you consider me a republican currently ?
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: shinohai: didn't know you answered stuff addressed to me nao.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: asciilifeform: do you intend to not work with me if I work with MP?
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: asciilifeform: I'll ask you one, if you don't mind
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: that's still not your question, is it; sigh.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: asciilifeform: you ask me a question of yours, not if I agree with whatever someone else said somewhere else; please.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: I'm listening.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: asciilifeform: *you* ask me what questions you have and I'll answer.
(trilema) diana_coman: mp_en_viaje: wed would work best.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: get some proper sleep; I'll get to everything later today.
(agriculturalsupremacy) diana_coman: trinque: fwiw I *much* prefer non-emulated anything; now you said it, I can even see it fits though I hadn't thought of such a thing at all (possibly obviously why not); but basically you are saying also that walnutting effect just about.
(ossasepia) diana_coman will be back tomorrow
(ossasepia) diana_coman: anyways, fire me an email and come for a coffee or lunch or something.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: davout: this might be some summary including a bit re pizarro.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: davout: so what brings you back?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: congrats!
(ossasepia) diana_coman: once in a blue moon I even still go to oxford but no idea when it's next blue moon,lolz
(ossasepia) diana_coman: did you get your pilot license or what?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: ha; so come to reading/london some time?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: oh hey, wb davout ; where are you those days?
(agriculturalsupremacy) diana_coman: just start on it though or it won't happen.
(agriculturalsupremacy) diana_coman: if you want to stay then find a way to stay, simply.
(agriculturalsupremacy) diana_coman: I have yet to find a place without disadvantages, honestly.
(agriculturalsupremacy) diana_coman: you're most welcome.
(agriculturalsupremacy) diana_coman: BingoBoingo: so give it a go but concrete, some steps (or ask MP if totally stumped as to how to start), just don't let it (and yourself) drift, that's why I'm banging your head here.
(agriculturalsupremacy) diana_coman: yes, the pizarro taking time is precisely a bit the reason I'm asking; because while that takes its time, it also takes yours from what-do-next
(agriculturalsupremacy) diana_coman: are you sending apps to datacentres or still mulling or what?
(agriculturalsupremacy) diana_coman: BingoBoingo: how are you otherwise in that uruguay?
(agriculturalsupremacy) diana_coman: trinque: bwahaha, that is so you.
(agriculturalsupremacy) diana_coman: BingoBoingo: I added the chan to logs.ossasepia.com and ossabot ; let me know if you want me to import any logs.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: good for you; and glad to hear it :)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: but anyway, as far as I understood you actually quite took care of this part ie you have your own place and time without forced "come play with meee" , no?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: the trouble is not as much that "family is broken" but rather that you still rely on them for warmth and close-knit (and as a result you have to deal somehow with the natural rift otherwise)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: and while some broken things might perhaps be inevitable around or happen from time to time, they 1. will cost you 2. are not mandatory
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whenever you end up with sort of mitigation (that's what you are doing there with close but not that close), you are pretty much living with a broken thing really
(ossasepia) diana_coman: they are related but yeah, make better friends and then you won't need to keep them "close but not too close"
(ossasepia) diana_coman: it's clearly that essentially you want to have your own space (and not just physical space) too which is perfectly adult-like, obviously.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: that's answering "what does further away mean", not "why"
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: trinque: yay, glad to hear it; and no extreme hurry.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: so why would you rather have them further away?
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: replicate I suppose, rather than mirror
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: trinque: where can I get the stuff to mirror the WoT like I did the logger?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: closet-knit though is a different thing :D
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: ahaha; no, not at all; it can mean several things out of a bunch but quite unlikely to mean "not all that loving and caring"
(ossasepia) diana_coman: onth def of words is further iffy in that it inevitably depends on/draws in the speaker's own knowledge otherwise (and with rather unrestricted scope too)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: ie your own definitions of words can be the simple-cut-out 4legs+plank style or the much more perceptive negative-space style
(ossasepia) diana_coman: but I suspect it's more a matter of the *people* speaking "the language" than language as a separate entity (if it can ever be separate anyway)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion: greek is cannonical example there.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: why /how would it be bad?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: and your statement that it's quite normal to get along better with siblings only once not living together is pretty much that "loving, carrying and close-knit is great but mainly when far away too"
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: eulora has those quite pithy "message of the day", among which there's the one I paraphrased there
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: asciilifeform: why so bitter though? quality of outputs was and is recognised even now - and if you actually read what everyone and anyone said, it's stated plainly.
(ossasepia) diana_coman will bbl
(ossasepia) diana_coman: heh, even thinking is re-thinking!
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: you are there like in eulora, approx: happiness is having a large, close-knit family in another town.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I can see the angle if basically you needed some space too but uhm, don't make it a rule, there's nothing solid behind it.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: lolz
(ossasepia) diana_coman: bwahahaha; good god, NO.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: well, not in school but at home, lol; anyways, there you have it: it's enough to have a gap and people will "teach" one another *if they care* about that other, obv; that's the main part there.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: I see.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: heh, never explained to her anything?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion: do you have siblings?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: that in itself doesn't mean though that teaching was necessarily more than the prussian model really; it's just the natural result of mixed ages basically; while it may help in getting some deeper understanding, it's still not going to do much by itself, it's not like older students are all teachers just like that.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion: eh, not all that many adults around either :P
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: but you know, the way you frame it, there's anyway only "buying" ie either your version or something else but at any rate, nothing than a blind buy.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: asciilifeform: well, you wouldn't write it for effects anyway, would you?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: there is an element of that for sure; but the definition by subtraction vs definition by parts is more than just "don't reduce it to predefined symbols"
(ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion: in truth, there will never be enough teachers for *everyone* so yes, if you insist that everyone gets a teacher like that by decree, what else can you get than ...welfare.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: yes.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: asciilifeform: why not write your own thoughts?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: actual feedback and help to grow is rare indeed.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: you're welcome.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion: does that make sense?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion: fwiw the "negative space drawing" is actually quite often used as an exercise to help beginners draw *better* pictures than they would otherwise.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: onth blind spots are really like in a car's mirror: those bits and parts that you don't see; as to *why* you don't see them, there can be all sorts of reasons
(ossasepia) diana_coman: but our interaction, yes
(ossasepia) diana_coman: well, you are not really defined by what I'm saying though :)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: obviously, if you do it, choose something reasonably non-compact ie preferably not-a-tennis-ball, lolz.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: (now I have no idea how good you are at drawing, heh)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: and then compare the two
(ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion: the chair-drawing exercise is simple enough you can even do it, if you want; ie draw something focusing on the object itself; then on another day draw the same thing focusing on what is not-object in your chosen viewframe
(ossasepia) diana_coman: this difference btw goes way way deeper in that it touches on how meaning of words is constructed even (or at least in some languages)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion: more like how the chair is *defined* as a result of taking things away from the whole ; as opposed to "positive" definition of the more usual sort "this chair is 4 wooden legs and one wooden plank"
(ossasepia) diana_coman: as such, the negative space has nothing to do directly with blind spots (in that such blind spots are your own ie related to your vision, things you don't see; while the negative space has to do with the object it defines)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: the object itself is the "positive" as in that's what you were interested in to start with; but the space *around* it (and not just arbitrary but effectively *defining* it) is the negative space
(ossasepia) diana_coman: no matter which bit or object you are looking at, there will be borders between it and surroundings
(ossasepia) diana_coman: the chair-shaped gap, if you want
(ossasepia) diana_coman: however, the result is often way, way better if you look instead not at the chair itself but at the surrounding reality borders - basically the space that the chair takes out of its surroundings
(ossasepia) diana_coman: think of drawing an object such as a chair; the direct and usual approach is to look at the chair and attempt to draw its parts
(ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion: the easiest way to get an idea as to negative space is from drawing:
(ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion: what's the difference between negative space and blind spots?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: and do get out of it alive.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: an overview of the WoT as you understand it.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: but I'll let you focus on it now then, no worries.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: in truth, it is a whole month indeed, dunno who exactly made it that.. long :P
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: what does it lack to be finished?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: how's it going?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: hello davout, it's been a long time
(ossasepia) diana_coman: lobbes: you're welcome; and I'll read it when you publish it.
(trilema) diana_coman: hm, might be one of those that doesn't quite mean same across the mountains.
(trilema) diana_coman: mircea_popescu: what madness? madness supposes a bit more... liveliness.
(trilema) diana_coman: by now dex sounds ~random almost, ugh.
(trilema) diana_coman: now, is bolund ~= indolent? lolz
(trilema) diana_coman: ha, not bad.
(trilema) diana_coman: will do.
(trilema) diana_coman: aha; atm I'm aiming for basic "random article out of all"; let it be in Ro if it falls that way, what's the problem.
(trilema) diana_coman: mircea_popescu: thank you!
(trilema) diana_coman: mircea_popescu: I suspect that's more smarts than highly intelligent.
(trilema) diana_coman: (and I couldn't find it searching trilema.com and the logs, did I miss it?)
(trilema) diana_coman: mircea_popescu: can I get the random-post-on-landing-page trick that trilema uses? I'm weary of just hacking it into mp-wp atm.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: heh, well done for spotting it; yes.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: you got this not-bad investigation out of that mess, at least.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: all right; let the V post move on to next week and do it properly then.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: but I see what you are saying there; ok, leave it for now as it's basically waiting on clarifying it with MP and seeing his response.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: mine isn't atm, I can confirm that.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: you might need to focus on what's for this Sunday and then investigate this further (if needed) next week rather than right now.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: where are you otherwise with the rest of tasks for this week?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: it runs mp-wp, the original genesis; older php version (and in general: older versions of everything)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: maybe have a look also if you find/have any pingback from trilema to a different blog, perhaps it's again some php version clash or other such nightmare.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: basically so far you have that the pingback-comments are stripped of any whitespaces they might contain in the select part; next step is to find out where & why that strip happens.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: you look and see; while I did have a look, for one thing I don't know that part inside out and for the other it was still one of those rather quick looks so don't rely on that.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: so say it like that, even better (because yes, I kept looking at where the pingbacks are created and couldn't find why would that happen)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: as far as I understand it now, it does seem to me like an actual problem with the way pingbacks are created; just express it more clearly to MP too, as apparently I'm not the only one that had trouble figuring out exactly what problem you found.
(trilema) diana_coman: BingoBoingo: I can see that angle.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: for some reason I kept thinking earlier that it was a manual select of mine instead of a pingback.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: right you are.
(trilema) diana_coman: tsk.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I see; tbh that link is already dubious ie wtf "and t" did I do there, lol
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: so what/where strips them?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: ie the browser should *not* discard the spaces I would say.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: that's why I tend to look for a single b word there; indeed, user-wise it's both unhealthy and annoying if the spaces are discarded but this might be more of an issue on browser-side really
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: ah, spaces between words in b, hm.
(trilema) diana_coman: I don't think it's in the engineering though; more maybe the other way around ie engineering as a result, not as a cause.
(trilema) diana_coman has somewhere an engineer diploma.
(trilema) diana_coman: no mandatory fields huh, what a great... standard! spyked there is though some description inside the blog spec and possibly that's going to be the actual spec anyway (maybe iterated if more details are needed)
(trilema) diana_coman: spyked: no hurry now and I'd wait anyway for other people to comment on this thread too, first.
(trilema) diana_coman: ftr I do enjoy reading otherwise your crisp descriptions there but as they build up, in the end I'll still have to summarise & basically extract a "spec" out of them.
(trilema) diana_coman: would help to have ...one spec, lol; at least it would help me, what can I say.
(trilema) diana_coman: (obv, other than if I publish with messed up/changed dates)
(trilema) diana_coman: or does the order also change?
(trilema) diana_coman: spyked: hm; still a list ie once it finds what it had as "the last previously announced item", why would it look further?
(trilema) diana_coman: spyked: they have the timestamp, no? and/or they come as a list anyway.
(trilema) diana_coman: spyked: btw is there a spec for feedbot?
(trilema) diana_coman: I'm also rather weary of manual disables and the like because 1. this never scales, it can't 2. now I need to keep a list of things for which to poke spyked to disable my feed if I as much as touch them on my own blog?
(trilema) diana_coman: if one starts now publishing stuff in the past, that's on them, not on the bot.
(trilema) diana_coman: spyked: re bot, I said flaw because I don't think it should spit all entries it hasn't seen before, no; to my mind it should spit all entries *newer* than the *last one* it saw before, simply
(trilema) diana_coman: spyked: oh, I hadn't realised you ran into similar too, didn't quite connect and if you didn't say anything earlier...; so in the end my investigation into this yesterday covered more than I thought, huh.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: trinque: I entirely defer to you there as I have full 0 xp re LSD and its workings.
(trilema) diana_coman: so it would seem that jfw has actually found a bug with those html chars, except it wasn't in the original mp-wp but in billymg's trimming patches so that should get fixed now.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: one of those days I wanted to ask you re machines but atm I gather you rather have to focus on the writing, isn't it?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: billymg: not a problem, happy we uncovered it at least.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: essentially it's more you molding to the machine than the other way around really.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: usually nobody's entirely crazy *to start with*; it takes a while :P
(ossasepia) diana_coman: did I miss anything?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: 1 is a matter of delimiters; 2 is apparently not in the original mpwp; 3 is a matter of citing properly the context rather than term inside link.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: now let's see, of the original 1,2,3 problems, is there anything left?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: thank you.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: billymg: html editor box
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: no, I pasted exactly what you gave me there and it stays as you gave it
(ossasepia) diana_coman: and that might be
(ossasepia) diana_coman: billymg: I start suspecting it's something you broke with the latest /trimming patches really; iirc on ossasepia I have the original mpwp, ie not pressed to last vpatch
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: does that happen on younghands.club?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: anyways, I'll wait for pastes from you 2 and I'll try them
(ossasepia) diana_coman: ie one of each
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I've put all 3 since I'm at it,lolz
(ossasepia) diana_coman: why would you want it inside plain text since it's ..not?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: but indeed, inside <cite> or <blockquote> or <code>, not just plain
(ossasepia) diana_coman: billymg: did that and...nope?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: sure, why not
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: hm, I did and still can't see it; mind putting a paste on paste.deedbot with an example so I know I'm testing exactly what you're having trouble with there
(ossasepia) diana_coman goes to try it
(ossasepia) diana_coman: lettuce see the rest
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: just tested here and inside <blockquote> it shows as < fine?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: damn it all, easier to test directly.
(ossasepia) diana_coman goes in search of a post-with-code
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: I suppose it's one of those: choose your pain; just choose wisely there.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: doesn't it work within <cite> or <blockquote> ? because code anyway doesn't quite work as plain text/outside of this ie it's not *just* those bits.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: help me here: what is the bug you see?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: lobbes: ^ ?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: did I miss anything? jfw billymg whaack ?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack's problem selecting elements inside an html tag with the b&e mechanism, 3.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: re injecting html, that hm, if someone can plug whatever code into your *editor* page, it's already too late to protect against injection really.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-11-01#1008485 - html code is a pain to display, 2.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-11-01#1008478 - clash of (()) delimiters with Lisp, 1.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: let me see now if I can in the end identify the various problems proposed:
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: no, I know.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: but I'd say it's at the *very least* worth giving a good thought to the alternative.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: and on the other hand, at least from my point of view, different people can well have different preferences, sure
(ossasepia) diana_coman: that being said, on one hand on your very own blog you can of course do exactly and entirely *whatever you want*
(ossasepia) diana_coman: and writing &lg is also not exactly what I'd ever want as a user, really
(ossasepia) diana_coman: ie working with the user it's certainly preferable to write (( )) (or whatever delimiters you prefer eg ^^ ^^) rather than <fn> </fn>
(ossasepia) diana_coman: that's I suppose the main surprise in a sense: the trouble with protecting user against own idiocy is that the protection might protect idiots but it gets in the way of non-idiots most of the time
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: the main idea is that 1. the software should make it easy for the user to do what *they want* 2. including idiotic stuff if they are idiots
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: hence why it's always worth at the very least to first consider clearly what the proposed problem is; I'm still not entirely clear here as to what the problem(s?) you 4 suggest are exactly.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: billymg: I think I tend to <cite>/<blockquote> code though yes, code is ~always a pain in posts/text (and I hate it too, because it IS text ffs, but can't say I have a solution that I'm happy with, really)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: do you usually write with < and the like or how come?