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(trilema) diana_coman: they do manage at times to make communist flats seem great by comparison.
(trilema) diana_coman: and there are 2 main types, with the victorian terraces the shittiest thing possible (they were built specifically as cheap houses for newly "not-servant-but-worker".
(trilema) diana_coman: hanbot: I had quite a mindfuck at first re "terraced" ; from practical experience, it seems to mean "row of houses sharing walls" really; no idea where "terrace" comes into that.
(trilema) diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-10#1950374 - eh, nice rant and fine on money & figures; still, there are way nicer houses than that shit; "terraced" stands for shit around here but the original thing wasn't classed as terraced either so not sure why pick on that example.
(trilema) diana_coman: they had a few words in #trinque; I've sent lobbes to ask if he can help with cuntoo perhaps too.
(trilema) diana_coman: !Xbid 1072 11mn
(trilema) diana_coman: !Xbid 1064 1mn
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: but seriously, this is what a blog is for, your online notebook (and then some more)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: heh, not badly chosen.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: if you are entirely unfamiliar with Conrad, it would probably help to read his biography too, even if it's just main events, mainly for the context (for that matter it's not boring at all)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: and then at some point write-up the result of the thinking.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: so think about it, maybe re-read, think some more; why not.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: well, it is quite a different style for sure; I gather you enjoyed it, too.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: there, you still got something out of saying it, as it should always be the case anyway; good :)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: worth adding that when you see a similarity but can't figure out if/how/why/whether relevant, you should simply ...ask
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: that is certainly so, yes.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: and yes, I didn't reference thimbronion's previous discussion because the similarity there is rather superficial from what I can see so far; ie the root causes in those cases are quite different.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: seeing similarity is something but it's not enough in and by itself; how was the similarity relevant? that's what you should focus on when talking: the relevance, not just the similarity/link.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: obv, you might also state disagreement with something said and again, there you say *that*, clearly.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: ie either you add new content (in which case yes, you say what you have to say) OR you add your support to some already-said content, in which case you say *that*.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: if what you want to say is that you agree with me, there's not much need of it anyway and at any rate, it should be stated exactly like that "I fully agree with x there" rather than restating what was said.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: exactly.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: does that make sense to you?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: help, adding and so on, I won't make now extensive lists.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: for one thing, you are peers here and while I'm all for you giving feedback to one another, that's what it should be and nothing more: feedback.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: eg it's one thing to say "yo, that is painful to read!" and slightly different thing to say "that seems even more painful than x"
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: heh, the teacher is right there; but there is a matter of context and making it clear what's your aim/intention there
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: I appreciate the intention but don't worry at all about nodding along or not :)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: and the main reason + benefit in stating your thinking on those is precisely to get feedback there too.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: there's a difference there and it matters.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: the trouble above is that you should state this sort of things as what they are namely *your thinking* on/of this case; not a statement on dorion at all but your current understanding of this or that bit of interaction/discussion/whatever it is.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: but no, it's not about age for sure and fwiw I don't think he purposefully loaded his questions.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: now at least that's way clearer as to what you had to say, so good.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: so you know, wait, not like you forget what you wanted to say, do you?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: but what are pals for if not to insist on a proper thrashing for one another!
(ossasepia) diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-11-09#1009611 - eh, he's first of all entirely out of line there, then getting high on empty airs and finally miscommunicating to the extreme; I suspect it's more of an example of derpy-dorion of some years ago finding himself talking before quite thinking.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-11-09#1009620 - hm; as a once off it's fine but it shouldn't go on like this; and ftr, the lower limit I set there is ...lower than usual, specifically because you have this problem.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-11-09#1009609 - in that context "pain" was a reference really; that being said, it's indeed not the most useful comment as it stands.
(trilema) diana_coman: oh hey, welcome back ave1 !
(ossasepia) diana_coman: BingoBoingo: makes sense.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: how's the writing going taken like that in 1 hour chunks?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: BingoBoingo: sounds like a plan; I'll go offline in a bit too.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I wouldn't be surprised if it were ....loud, yes; and all the more reason to try then to make it happen if you'd want it.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: BingoBoingo: fwiw I got the impression that *that* would be more of what you'd really want; so I don't know, if you really want it, make it happen somehow.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I sometimes miss ...the cold; the frost and the snow and the contrast in the end, I suppose.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: BingoBoingo: any chance of parallegal in some Spanish-speaking area there?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: well, bread is certainly better there :) and if you are partial to more than 2 seasons, that might be a bonus too.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: BingoBoingo: I really hope it works out the way you want it, too.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: BingoBoingo: are you starting with the ISPs by distance or by preference of location or how?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: BingoBoingo: heh, you have full rights to say so in more ways than one, I suspect.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I suppose I have some more articles to translate now, huh.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: growth is usually like that, back and forth and all sorts; it's not a clean thing, nor can it be.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: BingoBoingo: for all the troubles and the problems, and fwiw I still think you grew enormously from it.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: for your experience there, nothing else.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-11-08#1009478 - I know; and ftr that is precisely why I let you go and have your say, despite quite expecting this result.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: heh, crossing over with BingoBoingo there.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: at the very least scan them, yes; they tend to be boilerplate so once you read one you'll spot the differences but at least have a look.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: BingoBoingo: tell me about it; yes, quite so.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-11-08#1009461 - do me a favour and tell me sometime what exactly you clarified and what's it worth.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whatever they might be saying.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-11-08#1009456 - add to this that even if they say they want it, it still doesn't always mean they want it; and more to the point: you can NEVER save people against their own wishes.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/asciilifeform/2019-11-08#1001752 - dorion , this is not something you can expect people to hear like that, no.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-11-08#1009448 - it will be worth your time for sure; alternatively you should make some tico friends and talk it over with them, it'll be more enjoyable and you'll still learn from it a lot.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman wishes asciilifeform all the best.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-11-08#1009459 - that I could have answered for you without the trouble; but then again, experience is not transferable, certainly.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: asciilifeform: that wouldn't be a problem, no.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: shinohai: you could let me know what you think you are up to, I'd listen; obv, you don't have to and that's fine too.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: asciilifeform: fwiw he wasn't speaking under false presences/cross-examinator style; he might be inexperienced, yes; but I will aim to warn them off before letting them near you, sure.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: asciilifeform: fwiw I don't do scripts; for one thing I have a ton of other things to do, for another I don't have any problem stating my mind in person and for yet another, I have no interest in puppets, only in people.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: shinohai: as I said: I don't quite get what you think you are up to; I just read the #asciilifeform logs though and had enough.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: shinohai: ftr, I don't quite get what you think you are up to there but let me tell you that it looks disgusting.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: asciilifeform: thank you; it does pose a problem for the future though in that I basically have to forbid anyone to come to you because you'll consider I wrote them a script, correctly?
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: asciilifeform: you might have noticed that I don't speak much in here either and for the same reason - it's your chan; and I'll leave if you want me out of it, for that matter; but at the same time, I won't take bullshit either please.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: asciilifeform: realise that he also read me and never spoke to me either; anyways, this is neither here nor there; just let me know if you have a problem with either me or him, ok?
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: asciilifeform: I don't follow what you are on to there; the man looked up to you and he wanted to say what he thought nobody said; you hear what you hear and then somehow also take a swipe at me for some reason, fine; make up your mind though.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: asciilifeform: because I let him come over and talk to you; if you have a problem with that, let me know.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: if you have any trouble there, take it on me not on him.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: see the comment for my reply to his request there.
(asciilifeform) diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/asciilifeform/2019-11-08#1001760 - this is bullshit; I did not *send* him; I only restricted/conditioned his coming on *fixed time*; read here, it's all public for that matter: http://younghands.club/2019/11/04/rmd-week-1-plan-nov-4th-10th-2019/?b=S.NSA&e=#select
(ossasepia) diana_coman: shrysr: possibly for you too ^
(ossasepia) diana_coman: it's easy to find and a good story at that, yes; just ...mind the parallels, lolz.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: now I don't know if it should still be called of progress but anyways.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: an outpost of progress came to mind really, what can I tell you.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: did you read anything by him?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: you know what, get some conrad to your reading list there, can't hurt
(ossasepia) diana_coman: iirc laptop batteries are certainly classed as "dangerous items" so ...
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: the point is that you want to *know* about what might trip you over; dunno, sometimes I start suspecting that everything worked way too smoothly for a too long time for people.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: so why on earth would you eat *that* esp while you are learning Spanish; sheesh.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: and as a rule, read the stuff in local language because quite often the english translation ...misses/skips over bits
(ossasepia) diana_coman: be very weary of "discounting" stuff, seriously.
(ossasepia) diana_coman throws a pebble at whaack
(ossasepia) diana_coman: alternatively, just use a local if you got a relationship you trust, ofc.
(trilema) diana_coman: my frozen snapshot in the starter_v is a press only up to vtools_ksum and I think it's time for an updated version really
(trilema) diana_coman: bvt: it occurs to me that you actually added some vpatch(es?) to vtools eg support for files in vtree root ; do you have /mirror the full tree somewhere?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: thimbronion: all right.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion: aha; and take it lightly at any rate, more lulz than anything else.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: thimbronion: well, the more important part is re next steps but at any rate, good to hear it's going well otherwise.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: oh hey, how's it going thimbronion ?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: and yeah, inabilities in general don't go well with imperatives, lol.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: BingoBoingo: certainly.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: eh, imperative is a matter of manner even more than tense.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: good practice for your Spanish too.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: good points there BingoBoingo
(ossasepia) diana_coman: BingoBoingo: makes sense really.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: for that matter I'd even say you probably *want* to go and talk to them since there won't be that many so best if you get to know them and they you, what
(ossasepia) diana_coman: ah, kk; and yes, probably best to just go to local office really
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: do you plan going to the USA for Christmas/new year?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: block them & kill them with fire, what is that.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: thou shall disable popups!
(ossasepia) diana_coman: can't hurt to have it written down for future ref if nothing else
(ossasepia) diana_coman: at any rate, if there's that much to it, might as well write-up the search for a company to deliver, too
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: what's the trouble with dhl?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: plenty of stuff to do otherwise anyway
(ossasepia) diana_coman: all right, let me know when you have something concrete so there isn't otherwise downtime just waiting for them
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: how long does it take for them to deliver the parts?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: he'll certainly blog it and with pics too as already stated http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-11-05#1008790
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: you make your computer first :)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: curaj, zi ceva, lolz.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: at any rate, feel free to get all the lolz out of it on your blog if/when you have time for it
(ossasepia) diana_coman: plenty of buzzes like that with effect ~0
(ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion: eh, just a tiny fly what rabbit
(ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion: I got that, I'll look at it later today.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: but currently he still has other things to sort out first.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: ie sure, I don't particularly want to support ebuilds; onth if I go for something else & new, it should be V-shaped.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-11-07#1009249 - it's of more concern that it's not that scalable really rather than that it's small currently
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I'll put it behind this time and this time only.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: look, whenever I'm talking here to any of you, I'm paying you full attention, right? now look back at that convo and see how it looks because besides the multitasking/not-quite-here, it would seem as if you dropped that thing precisely when I said I was going away and then not even bothered to look/wait at all.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion: quite.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: myeah, I know that impulse and desire; it's still not a practical path though.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: and dropping was re that weekend trip, yes; because if I take at face value your input there yest, it will end up badly.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: not tracking him on the spot necessarily, no, but ack /some feedback as to what are you going to do (if anything??), basic.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: fine; don't do it again though.
(trilema) diana_coman: anyways, 6 months in france cured me of francophilie
(trilema) diana_coman: no, I know, I grew up on French, not on English really; but if it's at that, I'd go at least for jojo se prenait pour voltaire et pierre pour casanova et moi, moi qui etais le plus fier moi, moi je me prenais pour moi
(trilema) diana_coman: even better: et je m'en fous.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: possibly a working eulora would even help with that tbh
(ossasepia) diana_coman: hanbot: thank you :)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: hanbot: noted, thank you; I was/am reconsidering precisely the wider net & target part; fwiw in general I tend to notice & bring out the live people if/when I meet some but a bit at a loss as to where it's more likely to run into them
(ossasepia) diana_coman: ave1: what happened to you?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: ftr I should say that meattalk works for as long as meattalk only ie I'd need to kick them loads to get online and frankly I don't think they are worth *that* much.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: apparently a rare sort.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: basically I do *not* want coders but ...live people, ffs.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: hanbot: though the online was initial stage ie manual only; the issue in the end turned out that I'm unpersuaded as to those forums being of much use (webstack derping oh god)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: hanbot: certainly more successful since basically all you see is ~that; meattalk resulted in full 0.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: np; if you are still going through July, that's certainly within the initial-burst, I suspect it even shows; then again, starting things tends to require some burst in my experience.
(trilema) diana_coman: I'll go and talk to those guys to see if I can get a server with them.
(trilema) diana_coman: mircea_popescu: sigh; you'd be surprised perhaps but I doubt it's worth the time to describe in much more detail.
(trilema) diana_coman: well, not able to notice + comprehend reality = in own head, ofc, where else remains.
(trilema) diana_coman: and that's all that matters
(trilema) diana_coman: mircea_popescu: that's precisely it, the "who or if uses" does not even enter into consideration there; it's built "because it should be so according to the ideals"
(trilema) diana_coman: I once said something on idealism and I still stand by it.
(trilema) diana_coman: looking forward to the demo.
(trilema) diana_coman: I still have to figure that out exactly what it does, how it works and so on; I'll have to look into it then.
(trilema) diana_coman: I am maintaining the logger and I intend to maintain it but any further development can happen only when I get some pages finally up to speed to help as I really don't have currently ~any time left to sink in that.
(trilema) diana_coman: mircea_popescu: re-reading the discussion yesterday it occured to me that the loggers & irc weren't mentioned at all
(trilema) diana_coman: so thank you and I'll get back to you on that.
(trilema) diana_coman: I might take you on the offer there for my blog if I don't manage to scare up something locally; I have currently some guys next door that I want to talk to, they seem to be at least talkable-tio
(trilema) diana_coman: mircea_popescu: sounds good.
(trilema) diana_coman: mircea_popescu: we will also need some lightweight place to set up the website
(trilema) diana_coman: just the prod needs to be on dc
(trilema) diana_coman: mircea_popescu: I'm happy with home-hosted dev.
(trilema) diana_coman: BingoBoingo: I had the "stale page" thing on your blog ~10 times and only now (after letting it be for a while funnily enough) it went through
(trilema) diana_coman: mircea_popescu: review as in finally being able to actually benchmark the server and get some concrete idea as to what it needs ; as a result it might be a new machine, yes.
(trilema) diana_coman: I should mention that we'll possibly need to review this once we do the release (ie dev server goes into production with the smg communications protocol and hopefully decrufted of most shit otherwise)
(trilema) diana_coman: re use, the heaviest part is db queries really.
(trilema) diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-06#1949915 - preference is for AMD arch as easiest & more familiar to deploy on & work with; that being said, if no AMD available, will go with Intel; for concrete specs, the current server is rather undemanding and it ran fine on fx-8350 eg something like this should work absolutely fine.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: hanbot: it's worth saying though that the above time is active time; there was and times is a lot of background-thinking that is much harder to measure.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: then of course if people start spinning and answering like jfw yesterday as if everyone had all the time in the world to wait for them, there is waste and I'm currently considering measures against it.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: hanbot: re time, there was an initial burst and then I reigned it in to something more sustainable, meaning about 3.5 hours per day averaged out; it's usually reading younghands.club on Monday morning + daily half hour in the morning, some attention as/if needed during the day and 2 hours from 7pm (though not on all days).
(ossasepia) diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-11-06#1009174 - myeah but listen here, wtf was that latency and dropping stuff there?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: BingoBoingo: no, you shouldn't get into a new isp for sure.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: anything else?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: all right, just plan your reviews & plans so they still get published, more sanely on Friday I suppose.
(ossasepia) diana_coman will be back tomorrow
(ossasepia) diana_coman: anyways, not something to say much on right now
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: anyways, nobody's a phd at anything to start with; the issue is not that but quite different ie if you decide to do it, then it has to be done properly so not as a side thing or just bits and pieces and so on
(ossasepia) diana_coman: that was what I wasn't clear on, aha.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw grab dorion too and consider then; best in here too.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: could use it too
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I mean: if you want to live in a dc, might as well switch your business plans and do a proper isp already
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I wouldn't advise it really
(ossasepia) diana_coman: BingoBoingo: maybe you look up and figure out what/if isps in panama since you have to do that list anyway?
(ossasepia) diana_coman vaguely remembers something in jfw's notes
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: are you running your blogs from your home currently?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I mean: I roughly know the servers but not everyone else does.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: BingoBoingo: oh; don't you have them on pizarroisp.net or aren't you sure those match?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: BingoBoingo: looking at the pizarro auction proposal wouldn't it make more sense to link the server names to their specs?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: didn't you investigate those "possibly some more dedicated facilities" ?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: santa claus comes with dulaps this year
(ossasepia) diana_coman: that much is true, yes.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: BingoBoingo: tbh I have no idea why would you want to go to Panama now but it can't hurt to consider the option at least, I suppose.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: dorion where do you keep your servers anyway, do you know the local ISPs?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: makes sense; he might still need to eat it too anyway for his own needs though.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion: you don't have to chew the Panama civil code upfront for that either, it can wait for afterwards.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion: bump that up please.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: BingoBoingo: dorion has in his plan to write about his 7 years experience in Panama
(ossasepia) diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-11-06#1009085 - yes, you can set it to anything you want for that matter; ofc whether or not it can still compile whatever it finds there is a different matter.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-11-06#1009082 - not at all out of line, quite on the contrary since this is something related to your biz, so shared, I even expect you add to it if there's more (and he to your answers if they lack anything); and for that matter nudges in the open, it's perfectly fine.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-11-06#1009074 - ok, so when's your eta to be done with putting those things in order so you can really get going?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-11-06#1009069 - from what I know of Latin, I wouldn't say so but I'm not familiar enough with the space to say for sure that it doesn't; Latin is very strong on structure indeed and it builds on that so I'd say a different outlook.
(trilema) diana_coman: all right, I'm sure we can coordinate anyway and it'll surely help.
(trilema) diana_coman: mircea_popescu: no, I thought it was just not online.
(trilema) diana_coman: cool; I'll get around to pop ossabot into #hanbot too then
(ossasepia) diana_coman: heh, I hope you do enjoy it!
(trilema) diana_coman: mircea_popescu: ah, I thought she already had hers but mainly aimed at a different demographic?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: welcome hanbot
(trilema) diana_coman: she anyway covers better than me some areas
(trilema) diana_coman: I'd be very happy to have hanbot there for sure
(trilema) diana_coman: mircea_popescu: I'm still here if there's some q re #o you want me to answer
(trilema) diana_coman: all right, thank you.
(trilema) diana_coman: ofc in between there will be setting the server up whenever we have where
(trilema) diana_coman: and after that I go back to client graphics & comms (+server side ofc, but that is waiting on comms protocol atm)
(trilema) diana_coman: then re moving cs to static build & gnat
(trilema) diana_coman: first I'll do now the estimates re ditching cs from server (dev)
(trilema) diana_coman: mircea_popescu: just to make sure re order of my next steps here:
(trilema) diana_coman: I'll dig them up and get them to you.
(trilema) diana_coman: ah, no; sadly not at all.
(trilema) diana_coman: strictly tech/dev, no
(trilema) diana_coman: (the dev server can run but won't do anything for current client)
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