billymg: mp_en_viaje: in theory we could write the tools that do what the heathen stack does, but i honestly think, given the intended purpose, it makes more sense to temporarily use them and then discard
asciilifeform: when 'be' was alive, could in fact edit film on (1990s! era) pc ! instead of on dedicated tape decks. as caught on only decade later, when microshit deemed it possible on their i-cant-believe-its-not-os
mp_en_viaje: then became... beos!
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 03:18:36 mp_en_viaje: now then, linux ~could have~ also been the definitive video stack, giving itself a lease on life extending past ~now. but then they fucked it all up.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-14#1928499 << this also interesting in light of now-~forgotten 1990s wrecks. at one time there was a product called 'be' (and in its early yrs came with own machine, designed from 0, 'bebox') and was , to many folx, 'definitive machine for video', unlike unixlikes or microshit, the kernel was built for realtime response above-all .
asciilifeform: ( on rare occasions, ends instead like bolix. but arguably similar enuff, fella who dies of heat and the other who -- of cold, still just as dead in the end)
asciilifeform: there's no shortage of stories like this, they all begin and end in exactly same way, 'seen 1, seen'em all'
asciilifeform: thing ran on 1 of the 1st mass prod. 'arm' cpu, also. and y'know the rest of what happened to those.
asciilifeform: here's another somewhat obscure example of the progression. recall in 1990s there were 9000 makers of pocket comps ? the kind could pull out on train and type into. all but 1 such, ended up in thralldom to microshit, and packaged (in rom!) winblowz 'ce', abominable liquishit, but somehow '100% market dominant'. the 1 holdout was a brit outfit, 'psion' . i have 1 here in torture room, it has better responsiveness than most pc ! the re
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, btw, nice footer. i wonder how useful the random shooter will turn out
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 03:28:54 mp_en_viaje: linux-server-database-scriptglue. that's what it's gonna be. call them what you will, but try and remember : buying "alternatives" doesn't make you alternative. i buy rope from the rope store and server from the apache store because i don't wanna pay 5x for shittier rope bought at the "special bdsm store". it dun do nothing for me.
asciilifeform: and in short order you get the lemon market, where 'why should i pay a cent moar, i know i will get exactly same shit as from lolmart no matter how much i pay'
asciilifeform: so, to return to thrd, historically when tree grows through pavement 'successfully', a la lamp, the naggumocalypse is not far, eventually around tree is built 'city park', with 'rules & regulations', 9000 idlers & hobos with imagined 'rights' etc
asciilifeform: 'Some people make new stuff... The herd gathers round the new item... The herd proceeds to interact with the new item... The fallen... come forth to "lead" the herd, to create "rules" for "the betterment" of the herd... The people continue to make their things exactly as they feel like... The herd moos happily'
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: found it -- http://trilema.com/2013/the-delusion-of-infrastructure/
billymg: mp_en_viaje: responded to your comment on the tester post http://billymg.com/2019/08/mp-wp-automated-testing-proposal-and-vpatch/comment-page-1/#comment-33
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, seems like recurrent theme, tbh, not sure which piece
asciilifeform tempted to make these bidirectional, it's entirely doable deterministically
asciilifeform: asciilifeform was drawn into bitcoin (specifically as portrayed by mp_en_viaje ; was never in the tardstalk forum , and [in fact quite cold to the subj][http://www.loper-os.org/?p=939] until encountered mp_en_viaje ) specifically because appeared, to asciilifeform , to be the 1st known instance of a successful defense against the 1-5 rot progression .
asciilifeform: then -- the flood of 'driven not even by greed, but sheer ~need~' described by naggum.
mp_en_viaje: i dunno about wwwtards! redditards i can see, but in the period between 93 and say digg days as the end, up to about 2010, having a website was rather a promise of sanity.
asciilifeform: ( and , lol, then 'mumps' will be overrun and die in 3-5 yrs and the old men will go, some to 'cluck' at ms sql , others to bottle )
mp_en_viaje: this vice thin gis fucked in the head
asciilifeform: it's universally the items that the wwwtards, microshit fruiting bodies, etc left for dead, where one still finds scrap of sanity and sumthing like documented, ~working~ moving parts.
mp_en_viaje: well, no/minimal net exposure also became very easy to achieve these days.
asciilifeform: this is actually typical of the 'trees in pavement', many/most have minimal net exposure. survival adaptation.
asciilifeform: somewhat retarded heathen 'threat or menace' piece re subj, for anyone interested. difficult actually to find detailed material on the net re this item, i orig. encountered it by chance, deep in the salt mines, in person.
asciilifeform: 1970s-era string-munging lang ~to this day~ used for medical db. runs on e.g. old ibm gear. look at it some time, will have nightmare. ( can 'redefine number 4' and so forth, and not only ~can~ but sometimes ~must~ ) but there it is , still in use.
asciilifeform: this is the interesting bit, there are industries where 'tree in the pavement' was never even approached, much less asphalted over, by ~either~ unix or microshit .
asciilifeform: what jars, ~all extant plants run on 1970s tech, never even swapped. there are folx making replacement parts for the pdp8.
mp_en_viaje: i kid you not. ask the haliburtons
asciilifeform: but reactor would quietly run vms ( as incidentally they still do ) on vax.
mp_en_viaje: this is the problem with systems that don't scale : yes, if your airplane can't take off, not attempting to take of is "wise".
asciilifeform: well linux in particular, as perpetrated by the finn, would almost certainly have stopped at the 'bored'
mp_en_viaje: either that or he'd have gotten bored of it about the same time as he did irl, and dropped in the drawer.
asciilifeform: to pile on the upstack thrd tho : lamp, as i see it, was linux's great ~calamity~. w/out rise of www, linux (or, moar likely, the bsd's) would have stayed small, obscure ( like many of the other systems asciilifeform worked with , that actually work and mp_en_viaje never heard of, or heard of strictly in 'facebookized' variants ) but... working. i.e. remained a green shoot in the pavement, for however long .
snsabot: Logged on 2017-02-18 17:29:22 asciilifeform: '... what was once dedication is replaced by greed and sometimes sheer need as the motivation to enter the field.'
asciilifeform: 'lamp' and the influx of deskilled labour connected with its rise , is imho exactly basketball tumour, and succinctly summarized by naggum
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 03:12:26 mp_en_viaje: com/2014/the-perfect-pitch/][point in case example].
mp_en_viaje: the fact that they, literally, snatched defeat from jaws of victory, makes one suspect maybe these coulds weaker than desired.
asciilifeform: i see the wwwism fad as tumour mass, rather than giraffe. yes from 'who's got the most cells, haha' tumour in yer chest the size of basketball is a 'success' .
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 03:18:36 mp_en_viaje: now then, linux ~could have~ also been the definitive video stack, giving itself a lease on life extending past ~now. but then they fucked it all up.
mp_en_viaje: but it didn't! is the important point. yes giraffe could have had trunk and elephant wings. COULD HAVE. DID NOT. major diff.
asciilifeform: but to take this angle further -- it could have easily grown ( just as briefly, or longer, no one can know ) through ~different~ crack. if were not for www fad, could easily know linux today as 'that thing weird greybeards use for cnc-ing submarine propellers'
mp_en_viaje: i don't even disagree with the broad model.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's model is, linux grew briefly in '90s exactly like tree seedling briefly grows through pavement crack. but in the end the tar pot and the roller do come, crack is sealed.
mp_en_viaje: you should see the atrocity that is facebook, today's successor. works actually worse than hotmail of the hopeful microsoft days
asciilifeform: so they had to make grudging exception.
asciilifeform: the 'cluck' tech was not up to the level, just yet, of 'deskill AND still worx-well-enuff-for-the-chumps-to-eat'
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, what about the hotmail purchase ?
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 03:21:21 mp_en_viaje: so, not to put too fine a point on it : i really don't give so much of a shit what peculiar buttdildos you use in your own special universe to make yourself feel "different from the rest", "poetic", "not understood" and whatever other such highschooler personal investments. the fact of the matter is, linux exists for and through and by and because apache, mysql, and the glue gluing these together : php. that's what it is, that's what it's for, th
mp_en_viaje: then again, when the king's qualified to king age 12... shortsightedness comes with the crown.
mp_en_viaje: "oh, they're all dogs".
snsabot: Logged on 2018-07-12 14:00:03 mircea_popescu: but do you recall the case of the misfortunate doria charge ?
mp_en_viaje: this is also true, as a broad trend. it is unfortunate but true that the inept king prefers crossbowmen over archers, because archers take lifetime to train and dedication from puberty to craft, whereas crossbow can be operated by... outsourced labour. it takes a certain sort of short-sightedness to not notice the implicit band-of-brothers vs your own nobles cutting down your own mercs
asciilifeform: both, however, occasionally forced to make 'unprincipled exception', cuz the set of what can be done by deskilled monkey with 'cluck' tool is never 100% .
asciilifeform: the capitalist of 1900 and the bureaucrat of 2000 have entirely common interest in deskilling ( skilled labour is poison , from pov of either ) and the underlying parts , whether computer or lathe or whatever, dun particularly matter, same pressure
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 03:13:51 mp_en_viaje: i am aware various sysadmin-y folks flatter themselves that "something unixlike'd have existed anyway for our terminal&cmdline needs". this is utterly false, they'd have been clucking at GUI interfaces exactly like the medical profession / barristas everywhere, and been thankful when .jar finally rolled around.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 03:16:47 mp_en_viaje: the 1990s "tech support" kiddo (perhaps best typified by thorne, who is a faggoty "designer" ; though i'm aware everyone'd rather it be "BOFH" or whatever similar self-wank) running grep over everyone-workking-at-the-videostore's hoemdirs never had any say or pulled any weight. toxicfact or haetfact or whatever, fact stays fact.
asciilifeform: this in particular is broadly true , and asciilifeform even has old piece re subj. and is why http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-14#1928497 -- observe -- ended up happening anyway, the current 'linux admins' are, for most part, in fact clucking at gui knobs.
mp_en_viaje: so the idea is, somehow a better use for linux will be found ?
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 03:47:31 mp_en_viaje: i get it, the concept grates, "but mp, i could design so much better systems" no you couldn't. the linux thing was successful ~coincidentally~. a space of possibilities was explored, and this is what STUCK. you can't design a better pile of nonsense for the exact reason you can't design a better elephant trunk : it wasn't fucking designed! it's what stuck!
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-14#1928515 << this in particular is suspiciously similar to the traditional 'Free Market(tm)(r) gave us microshit, so eat up' of 1990s
asciilifeform: and from certain pov (e.g. scrap dealer's, who only melts it down) all the rusty carcasses in junkyard are ~exactlysame. but from pov of the folx who go in when mp_en_viaje asks 'build a tank by mid august' -- not quite same.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i'm not about to defend individual pieces of the rusting junkyard from which built e.g. logger;
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2019/thelastpsychiatristcom-bipolar-rates-are-increasing-as-long-as-youre-willing-to-call-everything-bipolar-and-defy-gods-will-adnotated/ << Trilema -- thel....com - Bipolar Rates Are Increasing As Long As You're Willing To Call Everything Bipolar And Defy God's Will. Adnotated.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 01:00:50 asciilifeform: phf's bot, incidentally, ate. now would be a notbad time for the fella to come the hell out of his coma and say how.
mp_en_viaje: http://quinstreet.com/ aka http://trilema.com/2017/fake-news-are-just-one-tail-of-the-failed-female-state/
mp_en_viaje: ant to continue : https://internet.com/ ; much like IAC, QuinnStreet is a "S&P 600 Component", you know, with supposed revenue out of those shit "properties" and assorted other self-imagined bullshit. believe.
mp_en_viaje: drove the selection, how it drove it, etcetera.
mp_en_viaje: so, to conclude the whole discussion : designing-improvements-on-selected-systems might be the lulziest impedance mismatch of them all. the prime directive of the engineer is to first become aware of the selected portions of his environment, and then take care around them. yes, you can design things -- but only in well understood contexts. part of that understanding, ~central~ part of that understanding is awareness of the selected portions, what
mp_en_viaje: it's not there because it was designed ; it's there because it was selected, which is a different thing. selection produces things that work, definitionally, that's what it is. not well or correctly or properly but AT ALL.
mp_en_viaje: yes, i'm aware, if you made the giraffe it wouldn't have the laryngeal branch of the vagus go a mile around the heart. whopee for you, but do you know what ? galen was fucking aware this is happening in people too! it's called ~recurrent~ because it goes away and comes back, this is the case in all fucking mammals, equally "for no reason".
mp_en_viaje: i get it, the concept grates, "but mp, i could design so much better systems" no you couldn't. the linux thing was successful ~coincidentally~. a space of possibilities was explored, and this is what STUCK. you can't design a better pile of nonsense for the exact reason you can't design a better elephant trunk : it wasn't fucking designed! it's what stuck!
mp_en_viaje: yet ~the thing that runs python~ is already apache. definitionally. it's a broken half-way implementation of apache, but this doesn't make it either lighter or better or faster or anything. doing half the job ain't being "agile", it's being costly in a hidden manner : someone somewhere downstream will have to implement what you left out at the proper level, and it'll be more expensive then.
mp_en_viaje: then they're going to implement apache in php, because totally, this ~can~ be done. then they're going to have a lightweight apache to run their php and you're welcome to a) attempt to start three "servers" of this nonsense and b) wonder about the impedance mismatches.
mp_en_viaje: yes, guido von fucktard is going to "invent" a "language to make programming easy for everyone", hurr. it's exactly as needed as a tin-foil-covered-kitchen-knife makes a great birthday present. yes, a bright 5yo / retarded 12yo might give you that for your birthday ; you may even briefly interact with it. it's still not a fucking thing --
mp_en_viaje: and this nonsense then drives and is driven by the typically ustardian mode of failure, "we'll be rich by doing each other's laundry" "service economy" answer to the exact problem of argentina discussed above is then manifested in the "we'll just wrap everything in wrapping wrappy wrapers" "tech"/"innovation"/"entrepreneurial" nonsense.
mp_en_viaje: python/perl/whatever are not "better php". they might be more comfortable php, which is exactly like "i feel weird buying condoms otc, i really need a brown paper bag". fine, whatever works for you. don't tell me though stories about "the really cool store with the really better condoms". they're not better just because the clerk awkwardness-matches you and the SAME EXACT fmcg offering is proffered in an extra brown paper wrapper.
mp_en_viaje: linux-server-database-scriptglue. that's what it's gonna be. call them what you will, but try and remember : buying "alternatives" doesn't make you alternative. i buy rope from the rope store and server from the apache store because i don't wanna pay 5x for shittier rope bought at the "special bdsm store". it dun do nothing for me.
mp_en_viaje: yes, you can use "flask" instead of apache. it's shitty, they know is shitty, the reason they "dont recommend" you put it naked on #80 is precisely that they know it's shit.
mp_en_viaje: the fucking design of ~everything~ linux is always the same, and always this. divergence from this is neither clever nor ever functional, it'll always reduce to "i'm running LPyFFF because I don't understand why F has to come before the alt-P".
mp_en_viaje: yes, there's alternatives. of course there are. you don't have to coca cola, there's also pepsi. you like postgres more than mysql, well the fuck done, use that then. it'll be still used as an M in LAMP. because that's what the damned thing is, "flexibility" my ass.
mp_en_viaje: i don't give a shit what you tell the orcs back home, or your crying inner 6yo at night or anything else -- buy the ticket, take the ride.
mp_en_viaje: when you get a job with microsoft, you ~also~ buy the 90yo "representative" from iowa being "senior" just as you buy the add treatment for your kids and the wood frame house in vinyl siding and "black culture" and everything else.
mp_en_viaje: so, not to put too fine a point on it : i really don't give so much of a shit what peculiar buttdildos you use in your own special universe to make yourself feel "different from the rest", "poetic", "not understood" and whatever other such highschooler personal investments. the fact of the matter is, linux exists for and through and by and because apache, mysql, and the glue gluing these together : php. that's what it is, that's what it's for, th
snsabot: Logged on 2018-11-27 16:37:59 mircea_popescu: gnu managed to drive directx into the ground, on the strength of naive if well meaning contributors, and then managed to give the advantage back to windows, and snatch defeat from the very jaws of victory, on the strength of imbecile management.
mp_en_viaje: now then, linux ~could have~ also been the definitive video stack, giving itself a lease on life extending past ~now. but then they fucked it all up.
mp_en_viaje: the 1990s "tech support" kiddo (perhaps best typified by thorne, who is a faggoty "designer" ; though i'm aware everyone'd rather it be "BOFH" or whatever similar self-wank) running grep over everyone-workking-at-the-videostore's hoemdirs never had any say or pulled any weight. toxicfact or haetfact or whatever, fact stays fact.
mp_en_viaje: i am aware various sysadmin-y folks flatter themselves that "something unixlike'd have existed anyway for our terminal&cmdline needs". this is utterly false, they'd have been clucking at GUI interfaces exactly like the medical profession / barristas everywhere, and been thankful when .jar finally rolled around.
mp_en_viaje: com/2014/the-perfect-pitch/][point in case example].
mp_en_viaje: without this, all of linux (and all of the SMALLER foss, which piggy-backs on it, and always has, and always would have and forever would have had ; and certainly all of the even smaller and insignificant if more organisedly-stupid GNU) would have forever stayed the exact equivalent of an obscure gentoo repackaging three kids maintain for purely self-actualisation & escapist reasons. [http://trilema.
mp_en_viaje: so, the only reason linux exists, let me restate that actually : THE ONLY FUCKING REASON LINUX EXISTS is the sheer coincidence that people got the lamp stack (read : linux, apache, mysql, php) going just in time for the september that never ended fallout.
mp_en_viaje: since i exhausted him, i will now bark into the ethers (until someone wakes up), in the form of the following consumer computing likbez that we can all discuss once everyone else is sober -- im having second thoughts as to whether i ever want to be sober again.
mp_en_viaje: look at that, "the pellets project" (apt name if i've ever seen one) has documentation of this geficktzug or w/e it was.
mp_en_viaje: or wait, i got them wrong didn't i. kunstjig and zugkammer ?
mp_en_viaje: Flask is a lightweight WSGI web application framework. It is designed to make getting started quick and easy, with the ability to scale up to complex applications. It began as a simple wrapper around Werkzeug and Jinja and has become one of the most popular Python web application frameworks." << really makes me want to be sober, reading that thing.
mp_en_viaje: hey, you're the one juggling flasks.
asciilifeform: i have 1 piz box. wouldja rathet have no logger ? or 'circus'
mp_en_viaje: fucking circus ropeshow you got going there...
mp_en_viaje: or you using multiple flasks for each of these
asciilifeform: it is. sole purpose of its life on the box, in fact , to send phuctor subdomain to 1 port, snsashop to other, now log -- to yet 3rd
mp_en_viaje: then again nginx should be doing that.
asciilifeform: and reach the py proggy's port how ?
mp_en_viaje: ill say ftr what while ~decade ago this was actually standard deployment, i've not been bothered to have it for a long time now
mp_en_viaje: no fucking inkiling of an idea in their ferrous craniums that the ~moving~ is the point, nfi what overheads are, yakyakywak about "nos todos" and "social class" and whatever nonsense.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-13 15:10:34 BingoBoingo: Las empresas de consumo masivo aumentan sus precios hasta 15% y el Gobierno evalúa qué hacer con "Precios Esenciales" << Headline across the river
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-13#1928285 << in other keks, had to look up wtf this "consumo masivo" is supposed to be. ran into typically argentine socialist-fuckarded nonsense before realising it's how these "Los productos de consumo masivo se definen como productos de alta demanda. Son aquellos productos requeridos por todos los estratos de la socied
asciilifeform: so far uncertain whether pipe or nginx is culprit.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-13 13:33:53 asciilifeform: so i still suspect it aint the pipe ( diana_coman lives at piz )
asciilifeform: aha. and bins. try the db dump, same 'burst' pattern
asciilifeform: cache will do 0, the actual page gen in 'heavy' sample on py end takes 0.070s !
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, ok so then, what's the problem with the obvious course : test some static html files, see if it has same problem, implement cache as discussed yest when time permits and be done with it.
mp_en_viaje: and this even bearing in mind no such thing locally exists in the first place.
mp_en_viaje: you have a much better chance of spending your night drinking with washington equivalent, local psycho dolls, through walking the street of wash dc randomly talking to people,
mp_en_viaje spent the night up until ~now drinking with "psycho dolls", polish item, these chicks that do fireworks and stuff. girls picked them up right off street days ago.
asciilifeform: lobbes's hieroglyphs barf oughta be handled. after that would like to leave the logger to other folx to patch, at least for nao.
mp_en_viaje: so then do something else.
asciilifeform: ( i'd rather paint grass green, if have any say, than to continue fiddling the knobs )
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, it's right there, comparable with fucking space race and yes, pyramid.
asciilifeform: i suspect at this pt apache absorbed moar hrs than pyramid of cheops. and will welcome proof of 'yer hands grow out of arse, turn this-here knob and the 6s will become 0.2'.
mp_en_viaje: you're proposing to re-do all that to shave a second offa some webapp you misconfigured somewhere ? gimme a break, put 1/1000000 that much time into talking to internet randos about pizarro, get 1000000x the benefits.
mp_en_viaje: symbolics never in ~its entire life~... actually fucking strike that. all of mit cs lab, ALL OF IT, from csail onwards, never had a tenth of the fucking engineering man-hours that went into turning a patchy server into apache.
mp_en_viaje: you're approximately the equivalent of that one guy nobody heard of from the manhattan project who decided early on to re-design cars because his window crane nubbin kept falling off. "dude, they already have cars" "yes but they're not right" "we're doing something ELSE here!" "i can't get there, my car's window's nubbin keeps falling off"
asciilifeform: proggy -- is published. if no one sheds light on e.g. how to banish the spurious delay, will have to approach the q with whatever method i know of ( or live with it )
mp_en_viaje: in your case it'd be of the brain. wtf is wrong with you!
asciilifeform: the sim-periphs all get thrd etc
mp_en_viaje: well so then use that, what.
mp_en_viaje: but yes, this is the problem -- until and unless one ends up understanding how apache config works, one will not like it.
mp_en_viaje: nfi what you mean by "impedance mathc" either, it's an unusefully high level concept for this convo. if fs-is-my-cache and apache-workers items as they exist match your impedance, then yes it does. if they do not, then no it does not.
asciilifeform: the front-ends promise much, but deliver, afaik, mainly that extra sec of stall..
mp_en_viaje: "box is not doing, routerallah is doing", how shall i put this. there's no way to prevent a stampede as the guy being stampeded, it should be self-obvious
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, this "filter ddos" thing is pipe dream. either you got outside box to do it, or you're nto doing.
mp_en_viaje: in general, fwis, it's ~always much better to do the "use apache for threading and fs-as-cache" model than anything else. but then again i'm not the hacker, don't let me keep you from your destiny.
mp_en_viaje: otoh, apache is to my knowledge the only case of linux userland with useful threading implemented, debugged, and working. may be cheaper to piggyback on that subsystem than implement own threads, esp on the batshit insane anti-useful toybox that is linux.
mp_en_viaje: if you're not spitting out the filesystem, and don't need apache to run the infrastructure of whatever scripting language for you (ie, use python's native interpreter, or cl, bash w/e, rather than php) then you don't, strictly speaking, need it.
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-13#1928274 << i expect this is not even wrong ; apache exists to spit out filesystem to port 80 ; was then extended to spit out cgi and eventually mod php, but same principle.
mp_en_viaje: MS-Windows HTML-authoring software definitely should implement the conversion table below! Please forward this mail to the developers of your HTML authoring tool if this is currently done wrong.
mp_en_viaje: The official CP1252<->Unicode conversion table is printed in the Unicode 2.0 standard for instance, and is available on <ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/pub/doc/ISO/charsets/> in the file ucs-map-cp1252. [See also the file ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/MAPPINGS/VENDORS/MICSFT/WINDOWS/CP1252.TXT at the official Unicode site.]
mp_en_viaje: aracter on other systems.
mp_en_viaje: All the CP1252 characters are also available in Unicode. For example the CP1252 character 146 that you mentioned (RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK) has the Unicode number 8217, therefore you should use this number in order to conform to the HTML standard. Modern HTML browsers like Netscape 4.0 understand Unicode, and will automatically convert the Unicode character ’ back into the character 146 on MS-Windows machines, and into the appropriate ch
mp_en_viaje: The characters 128-159 are not used in ISO 8859-1 and Unicode, the character sets of HTML. MS-Windows uses a superset of ANSI/ISO 8859-1, known to experts as "Code Page 1252 (CP1252)", a Microsoft-specific character set with additional characters in the 128-159 range (also known as the "C1" range).
mp_en_viaje: just fucking kill anything on the ground in argentina now and start over.
mp_en_viaje: fucktard. who THE FUCK is gonna give them rice for 20 years ? what "50% de nuestro sueldo" ? what the fuck nuestro, no hay nada que es argentino. 100% of everythng, and now.
mp_en_viaje: BingoBoingo, right, they're going to "alt-pay", which is a speshul argentina thing, and it totally isn't not-pay, it's pay. because they say, and if they say then fucking totally.
mp_en_viaje: this was discussed numerously, asdf has auto-magics to distinguish the various encodings.
asciilifeform: quite arguably any proggy that uses heathen libs -- and pointedly includes my logger -- is pressed sawdust, worx until you hit whatever speshulcase the speshulchildren didn't think 'is possible'
asciilifeform: (i suspect answer lies deep in the CL libs that he used tho, and not necessarily in head.)
asciilifeform: phf's bot, incidentally, ate. now would be a notbad time for the fella to come the hell out of his coma and say how.
asciilifeform: ( is there a standard 'this is a dud orcogram' glyph ?? )
asciilifeform: if i don't find a mechanical method of somehow 'dwim'ing out the intended orcograms, i'ma have the bot replace'em with hammer-an'-sickle . unless someone has better idea.
asciilifeform: bot oughta log anyffin whatsoever that could possibly go in the wire.
asciilifeform: observe, incidentally, that this did not drop the bot.
lobbes: asciilifeform: I mis-typed; I meant to say that *my own bot echoed* and it does not show in the log. (6 lines up from this line; from lobbesbot)
lobbes: I curled that very .log file just now and ran it through hexdump -C. Here is the result of that line (Hex comes out to "92") >> http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/SSSVY/?raw=true
lobbes: here it is in "raw" form on the same www (timestamp [20:04:33]) >> http://logs.minigame.biz/2015-08-26.log
lobbes: so this is interesting... here's an example line from the live log that barfed on import >> http://logs.minigame.biz/2015-08-26.log.html#t20:04:33
asciilifeform: may well end up having to rewrite the formatter to use <table> . as in phuctor. there, and nowhere else , wrapping seems to work 100% , on all browser from 'lynx' to 1990s 'netscape'
asciilifeform: ( from ~output~ of phf's , that is, to this day nobody knows how it birthed this output )
asciilifeform: but where doesn't ( see the overflowing pgs ) currently nfi why, nor even where to start investigation
asciilifeform: to the extent that the renderer worx, is because lifted from phf's (and massaged empirically)
asciilifeform: i for instance have only the foggiest notion of why cssism does what it does and when/where
asciilifeform has been digging through logs for what details there may have been put there, but not yet turned up
asciilifeform: on either receiving or emitting end
lobbes: of course, now I can't find the example haha. But okay, I'm going to go back and take another look with hexdump in-hand
asciilifeform: ( do other unihieroglyphs show ? e.g. greek ? )
lobbes: well, I definitely saw some oddities in the raw logs on my end (as in, some of the problem lines had e.g. apostropies rendered as '?' when I viewed them through the 'more' command, for example)
asciilifeform: lobbes: seems to me that it shouldn't be hard to find whether 'because znc logs themselves' -- look in the raw logs
asciilifeform: ^ expert wwwists in the house ? plox to write in
lobbes: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-13#1928256 << it is inconclusive if the eggogs are a result of the znc2tmsr converter, or the znc logs themselves. Now that I have your logotron pressed onto my cuntoo workstation, I aim to get some irssi #e logs and run them through diana_coman's irssi2tmsr converter, and then snarf that into your logotron to see if I also get barf.
asciilifeform: in other minor noose, 'random' button already paid for self, found page where for some yet-unknown reason line wrap fails
BingoBoingo: Well, Argentines are talking about the possibility that "Brasil quits Mercosur" instead of the far more likely "Argentina suspended from Mercosur" (Venezuela is the precedent in this case)
BingoBoingo: "Molinos no entregan harina por falta de precios y se paraliza la industria del pan" << https://archive.is/RbAe7 Latest from across the river
asciilifeform: it is found down at the bottom , with the rest 'shit hanging off side of the rifle' perpetrated by asciilifeform
asciilifeform: in other noose, added simple knob to logotron that sends reader to (p)random line of selected chan.
BingoBoingo: And they'd be doing this with even less dollars in their hands than the last time they tried.
BingoBoingo: Return of the Blue dollar means they peg again and go back to fighting reality on this clearly lost front
BingoBoingo: Well, when Cristina got kicked out of the Pink house and into congress... Argentina started floating their currency
asciilifeform: so what means then 'return of blue dollar' ?
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Well, there was the offical rate proclaimed by Cristina, and then there was the Blue rate everyone actually traded at
asciilifeform: hm i thought that was the only remaining kind after dethronement of whore
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> BingoBoingo: let's get the 2nd xyz plant specced an' bought this mo << Aite
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: iirc "Blue" was the dollar that tracked actual supply/demand
asciilifeform: ( y'know, the one that was Officially Pegged (tm) at 15 to 1 $ , whereas in reality 100+:1 )
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-13 18:24:25 BingoBoingo: In other news, lower office holding Cristinists are already proposing a return of the Blue Dollar. Nevermind the Argentine Central bank is dumping dollars onto the market now just trying to slow the Peso Argentino's fall.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-11 17:08:50 asciilifeform: diana_coman: my pov, is that would like to get all 'magick' the fuck out of logotronics.
asciilifeform still ill at ease re logger, pending confirmation that the kit actually stands up somewhere other than in asciilifeform's hands
asciilifeform: the tyre fire of 'hey we've no logger' is , if not put out, then at low smoulder, so let's get this item moving
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: let's get the 2nd xyz plant specced an' bought this mo
BingoBoingo: In other news, lower office holding Cristinists are already proposing a return of the Blue Dollar. Nevermind the Argentine Central bank is dumping dollars onto the market now just trying to slow the Peso Argentino's fall.
asciilifeform: hey BingoBoingo , couldja run for me these timings plz
BingoBoingo: Las empresas de consumo masivo aumentan sus precios hasta 15% y el Gobierno evalúa qué hacer con "Precios Esenciales" << Headline across the river
asciilifeform: this ^ is simple means of testing the logger for folx not yet ready to stand up bot. e.g. : zcat dump.gz | psql -U nsabot -d nsalog will eat (assuming you already inited db w/ the provided schema)
asciilifeform: if folx want to mirror, i'd prefer that also happen daily, otherwise no amt of pipe will suffice
asciilifeform: i expect will be roughly 3x that when all the back-archives added.
asciilifeform: currently set to snapshot at 0 hrs. daily. (snapshot itself takes ~8sec at the current mass of the db)
asciilifeform: attn panzers : whichever 1 of you is searching for 'cuts of the meat' -- that's in pre-dragon log, not yet imported.
asciilifeform: and that phf did not use these, but hung up his logger straight on port80
asciilifeform: and now phf's log -- of 'heavy' pg -- via same. pretty interesting. total load time (to the tester author's box) -- 0.646s ; 1st byte -- 0.254s .
asciilifeform: all the clues point to nginx.
asciilifeform: so i still suspect it aint the pipe ( diana_coman lives at piz )
asciilifeform: it is even possible that the pipe is to blame, i.e. the measurement is 'random' depending on how congested the pipe at piz on acct of e.g. the multiple trb noads sitting there
asciilifeform: the 'heavy' pg again, via yet another 'www debugger'. 0.5s time-to-first-byte ! ..and defo shows the 'burst' pattern.
asciilifeform: ( from asciilifeform's chair ; 0.9 when executed locally on dulap , via ng i.e. the public url )
asciilifeform: the 'heavy' page -- 1.4-2s avg. on same
asciilifeform: aint nginx, apache, etc supposed to ~cure~ impedance mismatches, rather than cause'em...
asciilifeform: if this box weren't also running phuctor, could simply hang the logger on port 80 and get, theoretically, 200-300msec loads, loox like.
asciilifeform: this thing dun seem to distinguish the phases of the load tho (only distinguished load from rendering, and cuts the latter into phases. which makes a kind of sense, tool is evidently for debug of 'slow cuz hands of who wrote html-shitter grow from arse' scenarios )
snsabot: Logged on 2018-04-18 21:58:18 mircea_popescu: in unrelated news : i can't recommend the dsc-rx100 quite warmly enough. it's a splendid sony compact with zeiss lenses that's easily the best camera i ever saw.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-13 10:41:12 mp_en_viaje: 3s for 80kb is scandalous, but i'd say it's the poor q of your bw, nothing you can do about that from software.
asciilifeform: https://tools.pingdom.com/#5b22d518dfc00000 << this one confirms my init observ., almost whole second in 'connect' + 'wait' ( and 5 in receive , doesn't say in what pattern, but visually curl in the 'slow even on local shell' variant appears 'bursty' )
asciilifeform: was looking at https://gtmetrix.com/reports/logs.nosuchlabs.com/m3to2XTx , somewhat cryptic, will check out others
asciilifeform: pretty certain that the pipe itself is blameless, i get consistent realtime work through it, not once long pings much less subjective feel of 'mars probe'
asciilifeform: tried large buffers, no buffers, various tcpism knobs, no obv culprit for the impedance mismatch (what i suspect this is )
asciilifeform: i found no obvious cause, but in process of knob turning combinatorics cut the delay somewhat ( seems to only be detectable in graphic wwwtrons tho, and , annoyingly, cannot actually get useful number from those, unlike curl )
mp_en_viaje: 3s for 80kb is scandalous, but i'd say it's the poor q of your bw, nothing you can do about that from software.
mp_en_viaje: use the mouse hoover tooltips, they're informative. anyways, the webpage itself is good grade, by web standards.
mp_en_viaje: tbh in your case looks mostly like slow / poorly burstable pipe ; if you look at the waterfal it's mostly grey (receiving), 95% of the 2.x seconds they wait
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: ty for the tool link, will try with it
asciilifeform: but would like to confirm that other folx see similar figure, and aint an artifact of asciilifeform's local cachism
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: log now also 1-2s here ( ~3 for the 'heavy' historic pg linked earlier )
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, looks like about 1-2s for a large (400kb) page (a ; b), though id you actually look into the waterfalls the page itself is composed in 400-500ms, the rest being wats for random repeatable elements (which most browsers don't re-load) like avatar.pngs favicon.ico sbtop.png etc
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-13 06:02:15 mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1928191 << you know, someone fucked something up somewhere, because recall http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-14#1922400 ? sounds exactly the same, server just sits there for MINUTE before serving anything, for no reason. this didn't use to be the case, i suspect some "upgrade" broke the stack you two both happen to use ?
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: plox to try the 'heavy' log pgs, http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1927995
mp_en_viaje: maybe they could add the fat black woman at airport to dole out cabs to a queue ? god knows new york's prime for that.
mp_en_viaje: https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-york-city-considers-lifting-hostel-ban-to-lure-more-tourists-11565649721 << in other fucking lulz, new york joins the chase for norse retards.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-13 01:29:02 lobbes: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-11#1927288 << archiver back online btw (it has been chugging through the backlog for the last 4 hours or so)
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-12 22:07:05 asciilifeform: i'ma have to set whole orchestra up on a box w/ classic apache, to see whether same thing
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1928191 << you know, someone fucked something up somewhere, because recall http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-14#1922400 ? sounds exactly the same, server just sits there for MINUTE before serving anything, for no reason. this didn't use to be the case, i suspect some "upgrade" broke the stack you two both happen to use ?
lobbes: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-11#1927288 << archiver back online btw (it has been chugging through the backlog for the last 4 hours or so)
asciilifeform squeezed out a bit of the delay via knob-turning but this is still ridiculous
asciilifeform: ( and if cures, move dulap entirely to classic apache. back in the old days went w/ 'nginx' because slightly moar miserly re memory )
asciilifeform: i'ma have to set whole orchestra up on a box w/ classic apache, to see whether same thing
asciilifeform: cachism is apparently red herring, the proggy is actually fast enuff. there is parasitism in the loop.