asciilifeform: displays an' logs properly tho, here
lobbes: asciilifeform: re: that upstack Q, perhaps you are right. There was a link to some shithub source iirc
asciilifeform: how thefuq did that even come outta anybody's keyboard tho !!
asciilifeform: an' ÷
asciilifeform: or hm lobbes , can you elaborate re the internals of your thing ? does it put into wp at some pt , and ~it~ 'smartly' replaced % with ÷ and so on ??
lobbes: in either case, re: upstack I'm going to take mp_en_viaje's advice and just genesis the eulora logger as-is. It is a good point that nobody has to use the genesis *as is* (and indeed, publishing today means I can look back on it tomorrow)
asciilifeform: note also that ~this~ alone wouldn't turn it to barf, the above lines logged and display correctly
lobbes: asciilifeform: essentially, there's a ZNC logger and files. Then I have a cronjob that runs the heathen logs2html, then another cronjob that transfers these files to the /var/www/ side
asciilifeform: ugh wonder if 'logs2html' is it
asciilifeform: cut it open.
lobbes: could be... hence I think mp_en_viaje is right: I'ma have to publish so the real doctors can help me dissect it
lobbes also bbl
spyked: BingoBoingo, re. linux music player: I was using cmus and rhythmbox at the time (and before that I used "banshee", some bloatware written in C#/mono) and they both eventually cracked under the pressure, in different ways (segfault or hanging). so I fell back to more lightweight frontends for mplayer, e.g. mpv, and found out again that scriptability far surpasses the need for any GUI/TUI
lobbesbot: spyked: Sent 7 hours and 49 minutes ago: <BingoBoingo> re: http://daimon.me/blog/2012/05/winamp-ruleaza-cat-si-doua-vorbe-despre-linux/#comment-8147 the music player for linux is cmus
spyked: and by frontend I mean, proggy that receives file as command argument and plays it -- in case of audio file, without spawning anything graphical
spyked also tried "mpd" once, but only managed to make system-wide config, no user-level; and iirc launching it required special privileges, so I eventually gave up.
spyked: asciilifeform, minor nitpick re snsabot: I see no difference in the www interface between CTCP actions (the /me thing) and normal replies. e.g. I would expect ^ to be rendered as "spyked also tried ..." instead of "spyked: also tried".
spyked: also, a matter of personal preference: I've grown used to the btcbase behaviour of links opening in a new window. is this desirable/annoying? does anyone else care?
mp_en_viaje: spyked, honestly i wouldn't support the distinction.
mp_en_viaje: and i always ctrl-click anyways so i don't notice ; but i suppose might be desirable for some ? though, why have it baked in when you have the ctrl key to make up your own adventure ?
mp_en_viaje: let links be links and ctrl-click them when you want a new window, why not.
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-11#1927723 << pre-poetteering & his ugly children downstream, realise.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-11 20:44:08 BingoBoingo: Ah, how much simpler the world was on its surface a decade ago http://trilema.com/2009/treceti-pe-open-source/
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-11#1927726 << this is so, ro trilema utterly unamenable to automation.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-11 22:33:12 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i can't resist to ask, didja actually work through the ro, or relying on googlefish etc ? cuz if it's the latter, yer certain to step on some sharp nails
diana_coman: I also ctrl-click so didn't notice but I don't see the reason to bake in "new window"
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-11#1927733 << there's certainly a size limit.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-11 22:36:43 lobbes: wonder if just because it is ~15 MB...
mp_en_viaje: diana_coman, i have been taking them out from tlp for instance.
mp_en_viaje: target="_blank" nonsense.
mp_en_viaje: wtf pile of eyesore and assorted sadness html spec turns out to have been. all sorts of dangling nonsense a la above, it's the one midden that'll say the least flatterinfg things about humanity to the future archeologist.
mp_en_viaje: "oh, so they were retarded."
diana_coman: spyked: re actions, asciilifeform already responded in #o : http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-11#1000090
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-11 11:03:43 diana_coman: asciilifeform: actions seem to show in logger as text said rather than in any way different; is that intended? I don't quite grok what's the thing with *nick then?
mp_en_viaje: wtf OTHER targets were contemplated such that target=n or target=new were both not good enough ?
diana_coman: hm now - should I have linked his answer rather than the start of the thread?
mp_en_viaje: diana_coman, do you see value in maintaining the "ctcp" pile ?
diana_coman: mp_en_viaje: myeah, to me all www looks like "big pile of chairs that nobody ever cleaned up at all either"
diana_coman: mp_en_viaje: when trying to come up with a reason for it - no, nothing comes up really;
mp_en_viaje: it's basically a tumour grown upon irc protocol.
diana_coman: above it was more of a surprise at "why store it at all if it's not going to make any difference at all anyway"
mp_en_viaje: has this one visible tentac le here, otherwise does all sorta idioti things, i turn it all off on my clients
spyked: diana_coman, ty for the reference. btcbase does distinguish ctcp from the rest of msgs by... removing the ":" after the nick. I don't think it's a big deal either way, just noticed it while reading html log.
spyked: mp_en_viaje, that's a fair point, client behaviour of "open link" (click, ctrl+click etc.) should be a client-side knob.
diana_coman: ctcp does have the flavuor of "improvements by the crowd"
mp_en_viaje: there's dcc, which while useless at least has historical logic, tryna compete in the field of the time, file transfer. because ~anyone wanted irc wanted so as to sext
mp_en_viaje: but ctcp is just wikimedia-ism, stupidity designed by committee of ustards
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-11#1927780 << I do not expect that's his blog ; item is work of (relatively) well known internet lulzcow, one David Futrelle, a one-time pick-up artist / big man leadership dood meanwhile turned on the other side of the "BUT OBVIOUSLY, do we still have to DO this" cvasi-debate.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-11 23:42:08 asciilifeform: meanwhile, elsewhere, the 'chi non piscia in compagnia' anon in mp's comments apparently has this as his www ...
mp_en_viaje: the Anon on trilema was for a few years genuine anon person, but then someone figured out the email, like in the satoshi incident later, so now it's in principle anyoen who knows about that.
mp_en_viaje: i dunno if the orig Anon still writes even.
mp_en_viaje: but what am i going to do, break it ? tis history.
diana_coman: it just seemed to me that Anon(s) was pouring so much effort into constructing all sorts of "he's bad" about anyone as soon as it seemed "safe" to do it that..well, maybe he finally gets the idea of pouring that effort into something more useful
diana_coman: historically it just about never goes that way, of course.
mp_en_viaje: the problem with daydreaming is that it's fundamentally uninteresting, even to the kids themselves.
diana_coman: but somehow they still seem perfectly able to go about it until they die (and apparently they don't die of boredom either)
mp_en_viaje: only at certain times.
mp_en_viaje: see, daydreaming as an activity is a switchoff, always there when... reality goes under a certain threshold. daydreaming is the backup girlfriend, the one you call when better plans for friday night failed.
mp_en_viaje: this kinda proves the "fundamentally uninteresting" point to my eyes.
mp_en_viaje: also explains why it never goes that way, like you say. if it's something you only do when you're poor, there's never going to be olympics of it -- those guys ain't poor.
diana_coman: o.O ave1 your blog sez "spammers need not apply" to my comment
mp_en_viaje: finally figured you out huh!
diana_coman: I kind of wonder what am I applying for, though!
diana_coman: ftr it didn't even have a link, just a plain sentence (too plain?)
mp_en_viaje: the item sounds like you got a diff comment in the spam queue.
diana_coman: my poor, poor comment
mp_en_viaje: whole thing seems to be mostrly me using the proper math symbols of mult and division. i R-epent ?!
mp_en_viaje: (i end up leaking these in because of other software written by finnicky people who don't like / or * because "there are correct signs for that")
mp_en_viaje: am i being bad here ?
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1927792 < what, seriously ? you can just compose : and - in screen. or i think x too. or you know, you \div in latex ? or like... you use R at all.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-12 00:00:51 asciilifeform: how thefuq did that even come outta anybody's keyboard tho !!
mp_en_viaje: holy hell how can i be the only one plagued by these.
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1927795 << nope, they're in my own logs too seeing how i put them into teh chat with my own hands.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-12 00:02:17 asciilifeform: or hm lobbes , can you elaborate re the internals of your thing ? does it put into wp at some pt , and ~it~ 'smartly' replaced % with ÷ and so on ??
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1927802 << it's already turning way more informative than you brooding upon it in solitude, and upon multiple directions too!
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-12 00:04:32 lobbes: could be... hence I think mp_en_viaje is right: I'ma have to publish so the real doctors can help me dissect it
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1927804 << or could also just vlc like normal people.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-12 04:39:45 spyked: BingoBoingo, re. linux music player: I was using cmus and rhythmbox at the time (and before that I used "banshee", some bloatware written in C#/mono) and they both eventually cracked under the pressure, in different ways (segfault or hanging). so I fell back to more lightweight frontends for mplayer, e.g. mpv, and found out again that scriptability far surpasses the need for any GUI/TUI
mp_en_viaje: in fairness : winamp is like ida -- people who actually need it, end up running windows FOR it
mp_en_viaje: in other news, holy shit spyked that daimon carcass is sad. whole thing fucking became an epitaph of derealisation. "gândește-te așa: dacă azi ai asculta Mafia pentru prima dată, te-ar impresiona atât de tare încât te-ai duce la un al doilea concert?" ; "mă simt oarecum … scos din schemă. Watching from afar, vorba francezilor. Zbaterile locale devin maxim amuzante. Vin firme noi pe piața din Timișoara, îmi inundă inboxul pe Linked
mp_en_viaje: IN recrutorii. Privesc ușor abulic, „așa, și?”. Se zbat cei din partidele noi să scoată orașul și țara din rahat, chiar fără voia lor. Este amuzant, dar nu mă angajează."
mp_en_viaje: "oh, the notre dame burned down, huh", vorba francezilor.
mp_en_viaje: kinda brings some unexplected points in focus : when i started trilema, i was almost 30. when daimon ended his blog, he was almost 30. now compare, from http://daimon.me/aleph/2017/ to http://daimon.me/aleph/2019/ versus http://trilema.com/2009/ to http://trilema.com/20011/ -- how does it come out ?
diana_coman: mp_en_viaje: it's "amusing", right? that "oh, how funny you are trying to do something, how entertaining" is such great heights of being great, I can't even
mp_en_viaje: that guy was eminently ALSO capable, in the of-this-list sense fo capacity. he wandered off on his own power, there was no "meet mp" moment iirc. but there's inescapably, overpoweringly, a difference between the daimons (one of the first trilema participants, back in 2009), and the phfs (as it happens, the most recent "victim" of my "abusive" approach to disreality) of the world, and nicole on the other.
mp_en_viaje: and no, the difference isn't the tits.
mp_en_viaje: diana_coman, with amusements like that, who even needs strychnine anymore.
ave1: diana_coman: It seems one of your comments ended up in the spambox. Could you try again?
diana_coman: quite; for lack of anyone giving them a good beating when they are so amused, grrr.
mp_en_viaje: why, so they can be "in the hospital" with "a sepsis" ?
mp_en_viaje: for all you know, someone tried.
diana_coman: ave1: works!
mp_en_viaje: ave1, your pics break across the blog
ave1: I am sorry, somehow between all the spam of "I like your writing style" it got eaten.
mp_en_viaje: is this intentional ?
diana_coman: mp_en_viaje: hm, it might be, indeed.
mp_en_viaje: Saturday we flew to Ukraine << roflmao wtf, we missed each other by a week then ?
mp_en_viaje: http://ave1.org/comments/feed/ << missed diana_coman not in the feed (and obv also not in the shorted list on blog side) so now i dunno what it was!
ave1: mp_en_viaje: Pics made smaller, was not intentional
ave1: mp_en_viaje: Yes, although we travelled on to Vinnitsa right away and I'l be visiting Kiev for 2 days end of August
mp_en_viaje: im not going back to kiev.
mp_en_viaje: let them figure out how to grow girls that don't look like little boys.
ave1: Yes, they all look like 16 year olds
mp_en_viaje: giving me fucking nightmares.
mp_en_viaje: i didn't mind it so much twenty-odd years ago, but meanwhile apparently it's become intolerable.
ave1: There seem to be 3 states; 16, with child, old
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1927867 << this solves ~half~ of lobbes's riddle. observe that they work , when i throw'em in ( as well as all uniturds in phf's and diana_coman's dumps , imported w/out issue )
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-12 06:54:58 mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1927795 << nope, they're in my own logs too seeing how i put them into teh chat with my own hands.
diana_coman: asciilifeform and anyone else interested in the awk log converter from irssi : http://ossasepia.com/reference-code-shelf/#selection-985.0-985.18
diana_coman: I patched it on top of asciilifeform's tree as promised yesterday http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-11#1927521 (+ added the author field in manifest file) + mirrored the full logotron tree on my page
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-11 17:09:12 diana_coman: ah, ah; if you want it there, I can add it (tomorrow though), sure; meant to ask: why no author field in your manifest?
asciilifeform: ty diana_coman . i will mirror it & the sigs on my www also.
diana_coman: asciilifeform: it turns out I don't even usually have flask and psycopg2 on my machines
diana_coman: in fairness, I don't use python much - last time I used it was years ago for generating the Eulora cookbook aka a bunch of static html pages from various data
asciilifeform: diana_coman: they don't come with the interpreter ( hence mentioned as deps )
asciilifeform: on an unborked gentoo box, they build via 'emerge' ; otherwise by hand
spyked: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1927871 <-- also worx. afaik they use the same codecs for the most part, ffmpeg mostly.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-12 07:00:04 mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1927804 << or could also just vlc like normal people.
spyked: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1927874 <-- will quote straight from teh book: "exista un pericol foarte concret, anume ca daca unu' sta tot numa' cu prosti ajunge si el pina la urma prost, indiferent ce era la-nceput. Tot asa daca stai numa-ntre obiecte imaginare exista riscul foarte ~concret~ sa te dezintegrezi in
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-12 07:12:56 mp_en_viaje: in other news, holy shit spyked that daimon carcass is sad. whole thing fucking became an epitaph of derealisation. "gândește-te așa: dacă azi ai asculta Mafia pentru prima dată, te-ar impresiona atât de tare încât te-ai duce la un al doilea concert?" ; "mă simt oarecum … scos din schemă. Watching from afar, vorba francezilor. Zbaterile locale devin maxim amuzante. Vin firme noi pe piața din Timișoara, îmi inundă inboxul pe Linked
spyked: tru imaginar." which looks like the main issue: while scrolling on "fb feed" back in 2014, /me felt how he was becoming dumber.
spyked: hm, I think he was on #t at some point tho?
spyked: !q from:alex
snsabot: spyked: my valid commands are: seen, s, src, help, uptime
spyked: !qs from:alex
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1927806 << 'mplayer' is all i have on most boxen (the ones which even have sound..)
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-12 04:40:45 spyked: and by frontend I mean, proggy that receives file as command argument and plays it -- in case of audio file, without spawning anything graphical
asciilifeform: the shell one, that is, none of the (why??) x11 crapola
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1927817 << it's actually on the list, simply didn't make it into the 1st ver. asciilifeform for instance sometimes reads log on pnojes and similar keyboardless terminals, it is handy there.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-12 06:08:14 diana_coman: I also ctrl-click so didn't notice but I don't see the reason to bake in "new window"
asciilifeform: if mp_en_viaje et al have strong opinion on subj, i'ma make it a knob
asciilifeform: even on proper pc, imho 'overwrite the log tab' is ~never the desired behaviour
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1927840 << vaguely suspected it was a trololol link rather than his actual www...
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-12 06:22:11 mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-11#1927780 << I do not expect that's his blog ; item is work of (relatively) well known internet lulzcow, one David Futrelle, a one-time pick-up artist / big man leadership dood meanwhile turned on the other side of the "BUT OBVIOUSLY, do we still have to DO this" cvasi-debate.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1927831 << what else is in that pile ?
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-12 06:13:12 mp_en_viaje: it's basically a tumour grown upon irc protocol.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1927864 << i must be the only 1 who runs a 7bit ascii shell...
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-12 06:52:24 mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1927792 < what, seriously ? you can just compose : and - in screen. or i think x too. or you know, you \div in latex ? or like... you use R at all.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1927873 << can't resist to ask, for what might 'need' it ? oddball 1990s format ??
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-12 07:03:03 mp_en_viaje: in fairness : winamp is like ida -- people who actually need it, end up running windows FOR it
diana_coman: spyked: fwiw re daimon - he came in and asked me for a rating years ago as if it was a village and I should know it was "him"; once I figured out which "Alex" he was, I rated him; then even pulled and pushed him to try eulora - he resisted it and never made it.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1927808 << this also on to-do list, but atm dead last
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-12 05:59:50 spyked: asciilifeform, minor nitpick re snsabot: I see no difference in the www interface between CTCP actions (the /me thing) and normal replies. e.g. I would expect ^ to be rendered as "spyked also tried ..." instead of "spyked: also tried".
asciilifeform: wanted to nail down the basic knobs before any 'decorative'
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1927881 << not familiar with this one. from ~what~ did he wander off, and of what was capable ?
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-12 07:24:23 mp_en_viaje: that guy was eminently ALSO capable, in the of-this-list sense fo capacity. he wandered off on his own power, there was no "meet mp" moment iirc. but there's inescapably, overpoweringly, a difference between the daimons (one of the first trilema participants, back in 2009), and the phfs (as it happens, the most recent "victim" of my "abusive" approach to disreality) of the world, and nicole on the other.
feedbot: http://ossasepia.com/2019/08/12/camera-tests-of-a-sunday/ << Ossa Sepia -- Camera Tests of a Sunday
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1927918 << mostly on fain, i think.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-12 10:37:04 spyked: hm, I think he was on #t at some point tho?
asciilifeform waves to mp_en_viaje
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1927917 << i don't think that's the ~main~ issue. i think that's the secondary issue ; with the main issue being http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926670 -- specifically that anything crawling out of cunt can be taught to be polite, socially inocuous, culturally unobtrustive, etc. but NOT everything can be taught to have something to say, a driver inside, the thing here sometimes
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-12 10:36:26 spyked: tru imaginar." which looks like the main issue: while scrolling on "fb feed" back in 2014, /me felt how he was becoming dumber.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-09 04:02:39 mp_en_viaje: 3) the whole of it was always hanging out with the cool people. i don't mean, "cool", as in, swag. i mean cool as in david lynch quote above, dork bought a 12 room house for $3500 in th worst gangland he could find for his wife and newborn kid and lived there, "the fear was palpable"
mp_en_viaje: refered to as "a soul" when contrasted with that drawing of replicants, or "theorems to prove" when discussing the lost to nativity.
mp_en_viaje: because that can't be taught, obviously.
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, hi there.
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1927928 << i'd rather you just leave links plain ; but i don't have that strong feelings on the matter.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-12 10:43:46 asciilifeform: if mp_en_viaje et al have strong opinion on subj, i'ma make it a knob
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: tried to make 'new tab'ism go this morning, when spyked mentioned it, but it'll take some fiddling -- interacts poorly with the regexp-based link highlighting i used in this hasty drumhead logger. so prolly won't happen until much later.
asciilifeform: ( in re knobs, 1 optional toggle that asciilifeform wanted for many yrs -- but dun have yet -- is a 'reverse gear', i.e. display log 1st line on top of screen and down. but this, also, later. )
asciilifeform: while on subj of logger : mp_en_viaje do you still find that 'teletype' ? current ver is ~2x faster than 1st
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1927932 << holy hell, i'm not equal to that task. besides ctcp and dcc, there's even a microsoft-led attempt at embrace-and-extinguish from the 90s (it went nowhere) ; there was a broadly accepted pantsuitization of irc cca 2005 ("isupport"), various nsa-sponsored nonsense ("dancer", "hyperion", "protoctl")...
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-12 10:45:27 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1927831 << what else is in that pile ?
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: afaik we dun use these for anyffin
mp_en_viaje: part of them are baked in, freenode runs ircd 3
asciilifeform: ( nor do they have any relevance to how to write bots )
asciilifeform: so far the only fleanode nail i've stepped on, is that 'maybe you joined chan or maybe not' thing
mp_en_viaje: http://www.stack.nl/~jilles/cgi-bin/hgwebdir.cgi/irc-documentation-jilles/file/tip/reference/draft-meglio-irc-handshake-00.txt << o look, this disappeared
asciilifeform: current snsabot ignores all fleanode-generated rubbish (only processes traditional messages, such as spoken in chans, errything else is dropped silently)
asciilifeform: ( which dun mean it is illusory; snsabot has been on the air for <week )
mp_en_viaje: it is entirely possible feedbot gets kicked because of trying to ping while sending
asciilifeform: i gotta say, never before heard of ~client~ having to ~send~ 'ping'
asciilifeform: 'pong' -- yes, 'ping' ?
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, laugh but it's the model im contemplating re eulora
mp_en_viaje: let ~client~ check.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i meant specifically in re traditional irc
asciilifeform: rather than general case
mp_en_viaje: a ok
asciilifeform: in trad irc, server periodically asks 'PING blah' and client expected to 'PONG blah' back (why? if it's a tcp pipe? what's the whole point of tcp, orig, if not to avoid this? dun ask me)
mp_en_viaje: just... there's the obvious cut that the server dpesn't specifically care whether ny client is up or down ; yet each client cares whether server exists or doesn't. well... so to the victor go the spoils then, let the curious ask.
mp_en_viaje: what i;m saying is that server-ping is utterly misdesigned.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: thinking about it, it's outgrowth of tcp retardation, where having the client alive costs the server at all times
mp_en_viaje: indeed it is, huh
asciilifeform: so server wants to dispose of the corpses (they occupy memory)
mp_en_viaje: yeah, makes sense. as in -- i can understand the fungal path
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1927936 << da fuck do i know, being a dj ?
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-12 10:47:00 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1927873 << can't resist to ask, for what might 'need' it ? oddball 1990s format ??
asciilifeform: 'dj' imho oughta a) learn basic bash or b) stick to swapping vinyl records
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1927942 << he made more bitcoin than ~all of romania (ever) via old mp-run digg thing, for instance. i dunno, he was one of the less-retarded kids blogging in romanian in the mid 2000s
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-12 10:55:31 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1927881 << not familiar with this one. from ~what~ did he wander off, and of what was capable ?
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, dj is a peculiar lifeform, kinda dwells on a sort of cognitive surfboard, no time to learn anything
asciilifeform: early ro net is still largely 'dark matter' to asciilifeform ( tho moar penetrable than e.g. the finns; at least in ro human lang , lol )
mp_en_viaje: and yes alflog still teletype, http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2018-04-18#1802801 loaded in ~5s
snsabot: Logged on 2018-04-18 21:58:18 mircea_popescu: in unrelated news : i can't recommend the dsc-rx100 quite warmly enough. it's a splendid sony compact with zeiss lenses that's easily the best camera i ever saw.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: indeed, in fact 6s here.
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, mid2000s very far from early. early ro net was you know, mid 90s.
asciilifeform: prolly will remain 'teletype' until make caching mechanism per mp_en_viaje's algo (or rewrite in cl) whichever comes 1st
mp_en_viaje: ~80% by mass people hooking up on irc, iirc.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: a, assumed that 2000s was continuation of '90s, same folx
mp_en_viaje: 90s folks were working for microsoft by 2001.
asciilifeform: phunphakt -- for many yrs, asciilifeform's only exposure to ro folx was -- inhabitants of virii-themed forums
asciilifeform: incl. some spam/shitware folx who had... rather porous system , and could see their internal lulz
mp_en_viaje: that was more substantially the 2nd ro internet generation, late 90s to mid 2000s
asciilifeform: was astonished, that poor orcs would break backs over coupla hundy u.s in whatever scammages
asciilifeform: pictured, as consequence, modern ro as a place similar to india
mp_en_viaje: then sometime around 2004 or so the ro bureaucracy started getting online, resulting in the usual shitfest, "online publications", all the pretense to "the guardian" and "new york times" etc.
mp_en_viaje: finally everyone reached the same bottom, so there's little point in discussing romania apart from yurp
asciilifeform: i liked, ftr, how in e.g. timis, casino house on erry corner, and next to it a pawn where orc can pawn his last shirt + pnoje
asciilifeform: they oughta have these errywhere
mp_en_viaje: lol "casino"
asciilifeform: well, numbers game pit
mp_en_viaje: you know the fucktards in minsk ~actually asked me for id~ ?!
asciilifeform: or what were they called in orig, i fuighet
mp_en_viaje: what the fuck do these people think a casino is.
asciilifeform: btw 'vhs' people think 'america -- casino -- vegas!111' but in fact most of usa has some form of (bureaucrat-run) casino, and typically is little diff. from the ro item, and fulla 80 y.o. pissing away their last cent to ~simulated, 3d~ horse race
asciilifeform: the dumb shits build'em on outskirts of city, tho, where hardly anyone goes
mp_en_viaje: pretty sad.
mp_en_viaje: anyway, in my country you can just take the money and leave.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: the 1 i actually went into, in timis, was in fact automated, like old arcades
asciilifeform: put in coin -- maybe get 1 back , etc
mp_en_viaje: lol diana_coman breeding electric engineers.
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, oh, the slot things huh.
asciilifeform: was snoar ( to asciilifeform , who had to 'try 1nce' but otherwise indiff. to such pasttime ) . machine -- ate coin. left.
mp_en_viaje: i used these to great effect once, was on trip to serbia with then very recently enslavbed hanbot, proceeded to extract a few hundy out of the machines by monte-carlo-ing them out of their engineering assumptions. happened to be more than the whole weekend stay cost, gave her great story to rely the greatness of her master.
asciilifeform: lol, they use 1970s prng dun they.
mp_en_viaje: old things. yup.
mp_en_viaje: nowadays they don't even PERMIT monte carlo, the new (transparently java) craps have like 10-15-20-25 four options for a bid sort of thing
asciilifeform: reputedly, in (actual) casino in usa, anyone who is seen (cameras in erry hole) to win 2-3x, is banished and told not to come back
asciilifeform: 'this place is where you go to LOSE'
mp_en_viaje: after seeing the line-of-cabs edifice of socialism this doesn't even strike me as unlikely
asciilifeform: also, or goes the legend, anyone who was in some way party to the design of the game instruments, is persona non grata in casino (e.g., asciilifeform's brother, who has never set foot in a casino nor wanted to; one time his (long-defunkt) firm was contracted to make a pokerator... )
asciilifeform: the other interesting casinoism is that in usa, rng is a sealed box provided by usg. but iirc had already thread about this, in '13
asciilifeform: typical cheats, in so far as they reach the open literature, involve the coin dispenser, rather than rng per se.
asciilifeform: ( no public word , naturally, in re how much coin the 'inspectors' w/ the prng key, walk out with, and with what regularity )
mp_en_viaje: meanwhile in "the orc future of the zeklands" lulz, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_to_Defend quite illustrative
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: they had this in usa, massive public wank, 'occupy'(tm)(r)
mp_en_viaje: any civil engineering samplers ?
mp_en_viaje: i really like that retarded-gnome-tower tbh
mp_en_viaje: kinda makes the point about just how fucking dumb the kids actually are.
asciilifeform: i have buncha photos somewhere, but all snoar, mostly tents
mp_en_viaje: you see what i mean.
asciilifeform: old-timers in usa remember 'hobo towns' made of wood and cloth. but today's hobos -- go to 'sport' shop and buy tent.
mp_en_viaje: on credit card
asciilifeform: reddit card. nfi
mp_en_viaje: to protest "capitalism" and "the consumerist culture".
mp_en_viaje: "its world" being even the reason these fucks haven't yet starved ; but w/e.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: near as i could tell, they were 'protesting' the theoretical non-reelection of obummer. vanished within coupla days of 2012 continuation in office.
mp_en_viaje: the euro retardkids mostly complain that industry still exists.
asciilifeform: afaik usg picked up where kgb left off, paying idjits to sit in front of gates at french nuke stations
asciilifeform: 'we want moar solar' etc
asciilifeform: recall when 1 of these fired rpg7 at fr reactor ?
asciilifeform: ( to the credit of the frogs -- made no substantial dent )
mp_en_viaje: honestly i never followed the tardeluge that closely, somehow only ugly chicks live in the core. hotties universally peripherical.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: old noose, '82 iirc
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: iirc there was a trilema piece re argentards protesting a... bus stop
asciilifeform: can't seem to find in o(1) tho
feedbot: http://bimbo.club/2019/08/bet-your-pierogies-im-polish/ << Bimbo.Club -- Bet your pierogies I'm Polish!
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, http://trilema.com/2016/random-visuals-from-someplace/?b=spiky&e=#select
asciilifeform: aha! this
asciilifeform: there was a similar wank in usa, incidentally, in '70s when the wash. subway was built. there's a 'posh' neighbourhood, georgetown, where the locals successfully lobbied against subway stop. 'will bring hobos!111'
asciilifeform: today -- no subway there. but hobos a-plenty.
asciilifeform: right in front of e.g. crapple store (tm)(r) and the other pretentious heathen pits
asciilifeform last yr had to take a crapple box in for warranty repairs there. garbage errywhere.
mp_en_viaje: ~only known way to not have hobos is by forced labour.
mp_en_viaje: georgetown folk should have instead lobbied for "right to put any hobo found in driveway to work for the day". then -- subway could've brought all the hobos it wanted.
asciilifeform: !qs тунеядство
asciilifeform: ^see also
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2019/thelastpsychiatristcom-the-biggest-dick-ever-adnotated/ << Trilema -- thel....com - The Biggest Dick Ever. Adnotated.
asciilifeform: achtung panzers : test of next ver of log www ; spyked you have the newtab thing ; mp_en_viaje you have the checkerboard (lemme know if would rather darker/lighter) ; asciilifeform gets http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log?rev=1 reversal
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/08/peso-argentino-and-argentine-markets-fall-after-primary-elections-give-peronist-alberto-fernandez-cristina-kirchner-margin-sufficient-to-win-october-ballot-outright/ << Qntra -- Peso Argentino And Argentine Markets Fall After Primary Elections Give "Peronist" Alberto Fernandez, Cristina Kirchner Margin Sufficient To Win October Ballot Outright
asciilifeform: if nuffin is found to be catastrophically broken, will cut vpatch.
asciilifeform: grr broke selects apparently
asciilifeform: ( on odd-#'d lines )
asciilifeform: if anyone has idea re how to fix, plox to write in.
asciilifeform: ... if no one has any idea, i'ma have to revert, this broke multiline select also.
asciilifeform: oook, fixed.
bvt: asciilifeform: there is another thing that i just noticed that different between phf's logger and yours: single quote (') is encoded as ' in phf's logger, and as &apos in yours -- and &apos happens to be totally broken in links graphical mode (links -g). i can fix this on the links side, but i wonder if this is intended/acceptable behavior
mp_en_viaje: he has a point, shoyuld be 039
mp_en_viaje: speaking of http://bvt-trace.net/2019/08/vpatch-support-for-files-in-vtree-root/comment-page-1/#comment-57 what's even the guidance ? "fix one issue" ? something else ?
bvt: asciilifeform: re ctcp, you can spot /me messages in the curl output of your logger: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/sUDA5/?raw=true (extra ' 01 ' byte)
bvt: mp_en_viaje: i think there are two aspects: 1. readability (whether readers would be able to understand what is going on; in that vpatch the changes are local enough); 2. atomicity (whether someone would ever want to have one fix without the other; here my position is much weaker -- perhaps someone would want to have a crash on empty vpatches?)
mp_en_viaje: to be sure i think your patch is fine as it is.
bvt: there is also an aspect of potential future re-signing work on regrinds, which forces bigger vpatches, but imo the first two are more important
mp_en_viaje: how's that ?
bvt: well when i was re-signing another vtools vpatch at phf's request (for keccak regrind), i did the full re-testing as when releasing it the first time, to make sure that everything is ok.
bvt: and i know that when re-signing multiple vpatches, i would have done the same thing individually for each vpatch.
BingoBoingo: Assorted news landings submitted for the historical record: https://archive.is/WYl3C https://archive.is/FxPWb Some lulz present including "The peso didn't fall, the USD just happened to climb 30% in a day"
bvt: maybe that's too much testing for re-signing, i dunno.
mp_en_viaje: i just don't understand what two things we're comparing.
mp_en_viaje: BingoBoingo, typical tropes of oldwoman fiction.
bvt: in my workflow, each vpatch individually receives full press-build-test cycle; more smaller vpatches can make this process a bit longer and tedious.
bvt: but again, i think the first to points are more important; the third one has less priority (at least for me).
bvt: the two things for comparison -- less total number of vpatches at cost of vpatch size, or more vpatches, but smaller ones?
mp_en_viaje: if you do a total of 100 unit tests, does it matter if you do them in sets of 9-11-9-11 for 10 patches or in sets of 23-27-23-27 for 4 patches ?
bvt: so far i've been doing everything manually. for 10 vpatches, i would start automating the process. typicall i'd run full test set for each vpatch
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1928085 << this loox like simple thing, will put into next patch
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-12 16:44:50 bvt: asciilifeform: there is another thing that i just noticed that different between phf's logger and yours: single quote (') is encoded as ' in phf's logger, and as &apos in yours -- and &apos happens to be totally broken in links graphical mode (links -g). i can fix this on the links side, but i wonder if this is intended/acceptable behavior
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1928088 << i noticed the spurious 0x01, assumed it was py's utf heap o'rubbish improperly decoding. how do these appear from /me ?
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-12 17:01:08 bvt: asciilifeform: re ctcp, you can spot /me messages in the curl output of your logger: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/sUDA5/?raw=true (extra ' 01 ' byte)
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-09 11:04:34 asciilifeform: hrm anybody else see that spurious 0x01 ?
bvt: asciilifeform: can you try curl -s logs.nosuchlabs.com/log | grep --perl-regexp '\x01'
asciilifeform: re the 0x01 -- iirc these can't even occur in utf8! so prolly could simply filter'em out entirely
asciilifeform: will put this in on the staging box / bot
BingoBoingo: <mp_en_viaje> BingoBoingo, typical tropes of oldwoman fiction. << Typical tropes in a particular case that have high lulz potential Q3-Q4 of next year when North Argentina recycles
asciilifeform: nobody has said anyffin re the checkerboard, i'ma keep it as stands then unless someone reports that it makes eyes bleed
asciilifeform: ( and it'll go into the next patch )
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1928103 << in a word, i dunno it'd make a difference ; but it's the sorta thing only time will really tell.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-12 17:39:54 bvt: so far i've been doing everything manually. for 10 vpatches, i would start automating the process. typicall i'd run full test set for each vpatch
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1928114 << tis fine imo!
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-12 18:08:25 asciilifeform: nobody has said anyffin re the checkerboard, i'ma keep it as stands then unless someone reports that it makes eyes bleed
asciilifeform: i made the coloured blocks the lightest shade that'd still be distinguishable on my displays, imho this is Right Thing
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-11#1927665 << this , btw, will require some thought -- presently wwwtron has nfi 'when someone speaks' , can only query the db ( as can be seen in the 'last time anyone spoke' section of proggy ) which itself takes time
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-11 18:56:38 mp_en_viaje: whenever they're linked
mp_en_viaje: i don't get it ?!
asciilifeform: in re when to blow cache
asciilifeform: i was baking the cache
mp_en_viaje: ok, but you can have the logger blow the cache for the www
mp_en_viaje: nobody says www has to blow it
asciilifeform: not trivially, but yes, would have to
asciilifeform: ( currently the only means of communication b/w logger and www end, is (excepting the search fetch) -- the DB )
mp_en_viaje: have the logger simply delete the file whenever it runs into a logreference. eg if i say http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2018-08-12#1841030 it erases 2018-08-12.html
snsabot: Logged on 2018-08-12 11:20:24 asciilifeform: ( 4x, as large as can be had. )
mp_en_viaje: www reconstructs it next someone calls that url.
asciilifeform: the logger is built deliberately not to assume that it is on same box as www.
asciilifeform: ( plan is to have >1 , eventually, even inside this 1 system )
mp_en_viaje: nfi why youd do it like that.
asciilifeform: to keep all wwwism inside the wwwtron, and all ircism inside irctron.
mp_en_viaje: but they share a db and a filesystem, and are on same box.
asciilifeform: currently they indeed do.
mp_en_viaje: imo this should be set in stone.
asciilifeform: in that case may as well make'em same proggy. tho i like being able to reset the www displayer w/out affecting bot.
mp_en_viaje: so then that's why not make them same proggy
asciilifeform: cuz of the above.
asciilifeform: whythefuck throw the bot's connection simply to change colour of wwwism etc
mp_en_viaje: but it makes perfect sense to make them same unit, and make multiples of the complete unit if need be for reliability. it makes anti-sense to create "across-box" db edges, and try and maintain the nonsense army of unlilely units that don't work separately anyway
asciilifeform: currently they do work separately, if one were to tunnel the pgism. but mp_en_viaje has the point, that 'who knows if this even will ever be needed'
mp_en_viaje: while it's sensible to have www and logbot separate programs, it makes stupid to have them on separate boxes.
mp_en_viaje: meanwhile in goange, i give you https://imgs.mongabay.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/30/2019/02/15234715/Schizodactylus-monstrosus-from-Arunachal-Pradesh-.-768x512.jpg
asciilifeform: hm prolly i oughta have done it phuctor-style (where there's 1 .py and it can run either as wwwtron or 'eater' depending on cmdline params. )
asciilifeform: that way reduce to 1 proggy, and all of the shared routines unduped.
mp_en_viaje: or separate altogether, either way really.
mp_en_viaje: could lib out the shared routines i guess
asciilifeform dislikes pyistic libism , it spirals into insanity pretty quickly and makes testing / swaps of proggy on live box complicated
mp_en_viaje: no argument here
mp_en_viaje: point being, some duplication will hurt ~nothing anyway. you can keep them as they are, just drop the spurious design constraint
asciilifeform: already this thing is eating surprising amt of hand-cranking
mp_en_viaje: then you can have logbot invalidate cache and wwwtron construct cache and happy life.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: re 'delete file', it isn't quite a simple, cuz fs ops are potentially locking. i elided what means 'wipe the cache' for brevity, but there's a knob.
asciilifeform: *as simple
mp_en_viaje: a rm will block ~nothing
asciilifeform: i thought this also, when had pre-PG phuctor. turns out ~nothing is measurably > nothing, lol
mp_en_viaje: well, aite
asciilifeform: this is actually the interesting thing about multiprocesstronic proggies. as alluded to by spyked . the improbable -- is certain to eventually happen.
asciilifeform: ( and typically sooner than you think )
asciilifeform: dijkstra spent whole life killing trees on subj of deadlocking etc. but the subj is deep enuff for 9000 dijkstras.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-12#1928149 << pretty great. tropical cricket ?
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-12 18:27:27 mp_en_viaje: meanwhile in goange, i give you https://imgs.mongabay.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/30/2019/02/15234715/Schizodactylus-monstrosus-from-Arunachal-Pradesh-.-768x512.jpg
mp_en_viaje: some indian atrocity.
mp_en_viaje: anyone recall the trilema article (maybe comment ?) where i was explaining that choice's not constructive, one gotta pick A-or-B or else C-or-D, can't pick imaginarily A-or-D because D doesn't exist in a system with A.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: http://trilema.com/2012/strategic-superiority-a-saga/ ?
mp_en_viaje: nah, maor recent
mp_en_viaje: gah this is frustrationg
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2019/thelastpsychiatristcom-biology-is-destiny-adnotated/ << Trilema -- thel....com - Biology Is Destiny. Adnotated.
asciilifeform: soo, in strange findings: on dulap, 'time curl http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log' yields 2.342s; ( from my chair, same -- 2.455s ); but on identical (3m ago) clone of db , running locally, on substantially slower box, 0.252s !
asciilifeform: dulap aint currently swamped with loads, either
asciilifeform: ( on either log or phuctor )
asciilifeform: i'm beginning to suspect that the indices work here (pg 9) and not there (10)
asciilifeform: i.e. silently fail
asciilifeform: ... which is odd, cuz phuctor's -- work
asciilifeform: interestingly, seems to vary there by factor of ~2x !
asciilifeform: but!! only via apache ! i.e. time curl http://127.0.0.1:5002/log dun show either the variance or the slowdown.
asciilifeform: culprit, apparently , the frontend
asciilifeform: ... 100% of the time diff, apparently, in response req time
asciilifeform: err, nginx there, presently. interestingly, set up as experiment 'wsgi', python's equiv. of php's 'mod-php', and made ~no measurable diff !
asciilifeform: actual generation of e.g. current /log, takes 0.073s !
asciilifeform: approx 0.2s is eaten by transmission on net from BingoBoingostan to my chair; the rest is eaten by the www server somehow
asciilifeform: cachism is apparently red herring, the proggy is actually fast enuff. there is parasitism in the loop.
asciilifeform: reason why never noticed this effect with phuctor, is that its pages are small
asciilifeform: i'ma have to set whole orchestra up on a box w/ classic apache, to see whether same thing
asciilifeform: ( and if cures, move dulap entirely to classic apache. back in the old days went w/ 'nginx' because slightly moar miserly re memory )
asciilifeform squeezed out a bit of the delay via knob-turning but this is still ridiculous