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auctionbot: Sell order # 1004 has ENDED: 9.5k wFF q0 SOLD to mod6 for 1.5bn ecu. Attn: mircea_popescu
deedbot: << - Signs and Wonders Herald My Arrival
Mocky: thx, fixed
a111: Logged on 2018-11-01 03:23 mircea_popescu: Mocky pedistrian. << pede.
Mocky: << btw mystery solved, once I discovered my window opens:
a111: Logged on 2018-10-11 13:47 diana_coman: was it the time of day/light that made that "my view" picture so sandy-looking?
Mocky: orange tint that my eyes seemingly adjusted for
diana_coman: lol!
deedbot: << - Souq Waqif
mod6: mornin'
asciilifeform: ohai mod6
BingoBoingo: Mornin'
BingoBoingo: Reading the Mocky blog, I do not think I can survive the local sun exposure. Not without locals that make themselves available for oppression more readily
mod6: !!pay mircea_popescu 1.50000001
deedbot: Get your OTP:
mod6: !!v 2BB04EA206BDE7D139C9C3E24DE128B9E1FE22A7DECB81CFE322C22BD520A0F9
deedbot: mod6 paid mircea_popescu 1.50000001
mod6: Sweet, thanks mircea_popescu!
mod6: !!ledger mod6
mod6: !!sent-invoices
deedbot: << Loper OS - The Serpent Ciphers Key Schedule Equation System, in Graphical Form.
deedbot: << Qntra - Pot To Kettle: Please No Decades Of Pain (That Was Our Schtick)
deedbot: << - Cobbler, stick to your last
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo " ssemingly". and keks.
mircea_popescu: "act like a normal nation" aka "don't be a sociopath/psychopath" aka "please recognize incan notions of Holy Mother and Her most reserved role in the playground".
mircea_popescu: the traditional romanian "o fut pe ma-ta" seems particularily crafted for the occasion of interacting with pantsuit. because, literally, io asta fac : le fut mamica.
BingoBoingo: ty fxd
asciilifeform: ohai mircea_popescu
mod6: hola
asciilifeform: hey mircea_popescu , did we ever figure out if blumblumshub were worth anything ?
asciilifeform: subj appears in the l0gz, but nuffin conclusive
asciilifeform: ( the fundamental q is not 'canhaz 4 ring binder?' or 'canhaz 3?' or 'canhaz clean desk' but rather 'canhaz symm cipher whose difficulty reduces to factoring but cheaper than abused-rsa ? ' )
asciilifeform: more interesting, imho, even, is rabin's system, which (unlike rsa) is equiv to factoring problem, and iirc requires only 4 multiplications to decrypt ( and only 1 squaring to encrypt )
asciilifeform: ( tricky to actually use tho, produces decryption 4 ambiguous outputs, of which only 1 is correct answ )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not really looked into that deeply.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i dunno that'd be the end of the world. part of the problem of the usecase (eulora comms) is that you have highly structured inputs.
mircea_popescu: Mocky "its own".
mircea_popescu: and it turns out qatar is actually more important for india than india itself realises : it's where the aspie indie elite goes to learn to be "gay", ie, "i can't get any cunt anyway, might as well get used to living with another dude, wardrobe as well as everything else comes cheaper this way, cheap enough in fact for even scum like me to get some".
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the 'destructiring problem' is universal to all systems, even rsa
mircea_popescu: a skill that'll prove most important in their own fucking country, last i heard all the fuckable women they grew locally they exported
mircea_popescu: leaving aside how they all look like gypsies anyway.
mircea_popescu: aactually... i guess i should've left that as a comment on the article in q. brb.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: imho rabin is worth a look.
Mocky: mircea_popescu, ok, thx
asciilifeform: ( i've all the necessary logic for it , even : it dun need optimized exponentiations )
mircea_popescu: Mocky Your comment on the following post is awaiting moderation: << nice cgi work keks
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform right but it seems to me trivially easy to select among 4 possibles seeing how you know "this is a game packet, gotta have so and so serial and so and so id etc"
mircea_popescu: the drawback is that now you mix game code into crypto lib, to discriminate possibles.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ideally you'd have some entirely unrelated mechanism, to do it with ( i dun currently have one to give )
asciilifeform: or rather,
mircea_popescu: i suspect you don't have such.
asciilifeform: actually i do, lol
mircea_popescu: not in the general case at any rate.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you have what ?
asciilifeform: as part of the rsa payload, give sequence #, and each rabinism will contain the correct next-seq in the correct-of-four roots
asciilifeform: ( the roots, note, are only available to the fella who has p*q of the n )
mircea_popescu: sequence is deliberately defined loosely.
mircea_popescu: only used as ratchet.
asciilifeform: aha, this one'd be strictly for use in which-root
asciilifeform: increment with each rabinogram sent.
asciilifeform: so no need for cryptotron to know about game structures.
mircea_popescu: so have another layer of transport ?
asciilifeform: see, rabin dun replace rsa, because of the 4-roots headache; but given as you kick off the 'session' with a rsagram, the latter can contain a bitstring that gives seq #1 . then it gets incremented and appended to payload of each rabinogram, allowing the 4 roots to be distinguished.
asciilifeform: 1 layer.
mircea_popescu: if 1layer then there's no space for your other-sequence.
asciilifeform: ( session would contain seq & rabinkey )
mircea_popescu: eulora comms already has a sequence number defined.
Mocky: >> congrats, ur the first person to leave a nameless comment on my blog. I may have to update my cgi to complain now
a111: Logged on 2018-11-01 16:55 mircea_popescu: Mocky Your comment on the following post is awaiting moderation: << nice cgi work keks
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aa i see what you mean
mircea_popescu: Mocky a win is me.
asciilifeform: yes you'd need a separate seq counter for rabinism.
asciilifeform: so far it's the least retarded variant i can think of. ( beats the shit out of sboxism, at any rate )
mircea_popescu: whatever, retardation is what we deserve.
asciilifeform: i recommend to at least draw it on paper, before throwing out.
mircea_popescu: we've been talking about c-s for what, 3+ years ? it's still in the same phase.
asciilifeform: c-s is expensive on pc
asciilifeform: ( like rsa )
asciilifeform: the discovery of 3y is that pc is actually pretty slow machine for bignumism once you stop leaking with timings
mircea_popescu: aanayways.
asciilifeform: ( pretty lulzy, btw, i had nfi mircea_popescu were so attached to serpent, nao i feel sad, it's almost like i killed his dog or wat )
mircea_popescu: im not attached to serpent in any way other than in the following sense you're well fucking advised to pay attention to : 1. is a corporation, meaning ith's here to make money. 2. is also trying, but as a fucking distant second, to be a "good" corporation, however that is politically defined. it doesn't give a fuck about this, not in any deep sense, if the money's good it'll go against policy, and CHANGE policy as i
mircea_popescu: t's doing it. because this is what la serenissima is all about -- the doge back in venice is more then welcome to wholeheartedly support whatever the fuck the merchants on the blue find correct just and expedient.
mircea_popescu: 3. tried to be the one fucking thing in its line with encrypted comms, for which purpose it attempted to take some guidance and apply it in practice. NOW, after the money's spent, and the work put in, now smartass-architect comes by to explain "how arches really should be" and "why these arches are terrible". this is worse than useless. not a little worse than useless -- much, MUCH worse than useless. all it does is get
mircea_popescu: the little architect hung by the neck until dead.
mircea_popescu: not for his crime of "being smart" and "figuring out the true truth". but for his crime of saying things out of time. because there was a fucking time for this discussion, and it was strictly BEFORE paid money for people to work their ass off in preference of playing with their kids to get it a serpent.
mircea_popescu: so the way this is going now -- serpent is going to be perfectly good (tm) for the republic, because the republic is the republic of slow moving, mentally confused morons that miss their opportunities to speak usefully.
mircea_popescu: how about that!
mircea_popescu: i ain't about to change the code i have for a theory that might maybe work because the theory behind the code i have might maybe not work according to this drawing.
mircea_popescu: for all i know, just about the time i'm done uprooting this and planting that, you'll be geniusing the exact same thing about that. i have 0 confidence this won't happen, specifically because of historical evolution, and so...
asciilifeform eats buffer, might take a while
mircea_popescu: mod6 BingoBoingo send me those deets again, wouldja.
mircea_popescu: Mocky "After enough conversations with chicks I found the pattern. They talk the same by race, they act the same they think the same. ItÂ’s like NPCs backed by a bored dialog writer wielding a Markov chain." << honestly, i dunno how much time you spent talking with us-born chickies, but the EXACT SAME THING APPLIES. and they even actively work to create such systematic nonsense, bein
a111: Logged on 2018-10-31 00:12 mircea_popescu: in-group signalling, obviously someone not in-group would not say "drumpf" just like that.
mircea_popescu: g a point in case. if she's aspiring to "work for the government" she'll tell you about how unfair it is for blacks, if she aspires to work "for tech" she'll tell you how bad homeless are, if she wants to marry and dependopopotamusize she'll tell you handgun stats, whatever.
mircea_popescu: this notion of "be anyone" etc is entirely fabricated, out of the venom of mother inca and the overactive brains of idle smart boys. nobody agrees with it, nothing agrees with it in practice, it never is nor ever was nor ever could be found in nature... it's like you thinking santa claus is real.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i dun get it , you'd willingly use a broken cipher to make a point ?
asciilifeform: ( why bother with cipher, then, could make 9000x point by 'i'ma plaintext! take that!' )
mircea_popescu: not quite the same point.
mircea_popescu: i foresaw this need, in 2015. i put 10 btc behind encouraging people to fix the problem. it died an ignominous death, what i have is serpent, that's what it is.
mircea_popescu: time doesn't flow fucking backwards.
asciilifeform: i certainly dun dispute mircea_popescu's right to do it, if he wants.
mircea_popescu: not a matter of ~want~. i DO NOT HAVE THE OPTION.
mircea_popescu: i saw the problem, in advance, i did my best to solve it, this is what came out of that.
mircea_popescu: maybe you're magical and have this option of going back in time, and good for you. i do not.
asciilifeform: it's how pc/os ended up what it is, neh. buncha folx 'i spent $trillion and nao i Dun Have The Option to stop..'
mircea_popescu: yup.
mircea_popescu: that's ~exactly~ how it all worked.
mircea_popescu: and if you're curious -- the reason they "whisper" is because they have 0 confidence there's any listeners. and listener means a very specific thing : the sort of person who both a) meets the intelligence bar AND!!! ALSO!!!! b) does not hallucinate options. such as "oh, dun need to do this now."
mod6: mircea_popescu: on it.
mircea_popescu: i suspect, if you care to know, that you have a major problem in that you only want to work on anything once it's too late. not coincidentally, but structurally, it being too late is principally part of the criteria impelling you to work.
asciilifeform: what i dun get is wai mircea_popescu thinks he has reached the place where 'no option' , afaik he hasn't baked $trillion asic . conceivably if mircea_popescu ( who 'i will live & die by factoring-is-not-in-P !' ) can reduce problem to factoring-not-in-P, he still has option .
mircea_popescu: i don't follow the logic.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you haven't launched $billion mars probe with serpent in silicon. so you have option ( not proposing 'let's rabin! right nao!' , it's naturally a measure-7-times-cut-1ce subj )
asciilifeform: it's a software, neh.
asciilifeform: unlike the massive pile of pgpgrams-cum-aes we've collectively shat out all over the net, nobody's even ciphered anyffing with serpent of yet, aside from diana_coman's tests
mod6: mircea_popescu:
mircea_popescu: what, is this discussion abotu some magic number ?
mircea_popescu: i said to diana_coman "implement serpent". that's it.
mircea_popescu: this discussion'd have been useful ~before~. after, it's spurious.
mod6: mircea_popescu: let me know if you have any questions, ofc.
mircea_popescu: and yes, ima implement "a cipher alf doesn't like" over alf's objections. because the only way alf'd be a stakeholder in this is... if... he had participated at a usefgul time. not at the time he felt like.
asciilifeform: i dun see why conjure up the presense that 'didn't participate at useful time' ; asciilifeform attacked problem of 'blockcipherism' ~continuously for 3+ yr.
asciilifeform: 'why didntcha find this sooner' is ridiculous q.
mircea_popescu: in the sense of "wait for diana_coman to publish ada code and then i'll maybe give it 6 hours of attention". that's your 3years
mircea_popescu: and it dun fucking work, in practice.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: fwiw i tried all kinds of approaches to breaking serpent in '16
asciilifeform: turning up the (potential! i aint even got a proof yet) weakness of the scheduler algo, took specifically the 'let's fpgaize, i think this is solid!' approach.
asciilifeform: ( and , recall, mircea_popescu almost talked me out of it, 'nobody needs iron disk crypter with questionable serpent' )
asciilifeform: i found this (potential?) find by carrying out an experiment over mircea_popescu's objection, lol
mircea_popescu: looky, the past 3 days' work could have been done just as well in 2015 as today.
mircea_popescu: the only different element is that today, unlike in 2015 (and not even RIGHT NOW, today as in this year) diana_coman published serpent code.
mircea_popescu: that's all there is to it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: she published vintage coad straight off my hdd, lol
asciilifeform: recall thread ?
mircea_popescu: so then what the fuck happened, by your lights ?
asciilifeform: i had to algebraize the thing , and have just the right rng bits flip in head , to get the 'ceiling tiles' ( why didn't mircea_popescu get'em in '15 ? )
mircea_popescu: is the idea more along then lines of "i knew about this all along, just didn't feel about telling you schmucks anything until after you poured cement" ? rather than "i literally could not be arsed to even look at this until someone poured some cement somewhere so i could pester them then" ?
mircea_popescu: oh, that's easy, i didn't cuz i can't code.
asciilifeform: 'why didn't you turn over this stone in '15 ?' 'there's 10^100 stones'
asciilifeform: coad dun come into it, it's a mathematical find
asciilifeform: and mircea_popescu is a trained maths fella, in fact theoretically moar qualified than asciilifeform to have found it
asciilifeform: why didn't find ?
mircea_popescu: understand the position here : code (practice) <-> algos (theory). we currently have actual code for an algo that you persuasively suggest may not be good (but not actually done the work to turn that suggestive theory in practice) and suggest replacement algos (but not done work again). my option is to either put in 0 work for 0 result, or else put in x work for 0 result.
mircea_popescu: it's, as they call in busioness, "a no brainer" -- i ain't doing jack.
asciilifeform: i did not say 'let's use nao this replacement'
mircea_popescu: so what did you say ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu actually kicked off thread where 'could have replacement ? ' so added one to the record, in case a replacement turns out to be needed.
mircea_popescu: yes, im going to use a shittier-than-hoped for cipher, for lack of alternative.
mircea_popescu: i did ?!
asciilifeform: aha,
mircea_popescu: i specificalyl said "time for btmsr cipher competition was 2015 -- it died".
mircea_popescu: the point there is I DESIGNED IT!!!
mircea_popescu: im not hiring anyone to do it, not anymore. tried and failed.
asciilifeform: ok, but did not say 'let's nobody else design block cipher! i hate block ciphers'
mircea_popescu: let them design all they want.
asciilifeform: thread was strictly re 'canhaz block ciphers?' , rather than 'let's talk mircea_popescu into switching to $weird'
mircea_popescu: they can go to a posh afair and show the designs to each other.
asciilifeform: incidentally if mircea_popescu dun want to read re serp. scheduler, he dun have to !
asciilifeform: but to rage over 'why not found this in 1998' is imho odd at the very least.
asciilifeform: could have lived for 100 yrs and looked daily and not found.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well, maybe your thread. my thread was re "are we fucking idiots ?! we have a foundation that wants to publish statements of the nothing as its only output, we have a bunch of smart people not helping our own industry avoid pitfals, and in this vein forever"
mircea_popescu: it's not even clear what makes us so damned good, atm.
mircea_popescu: why is better off with republican stack than with java stack ? it's still using serpent!
mircea_popescu: might as well capitalize on Mocky 's experience turn it into a ruby gem, yes ?
asciilifeform: imho the 'thing that makes us good' is that we dun do dumb shit like 'we know it's broken but we'll still use it because fuckyou should've discovered yer death ray in 1998'
asciilifeform: ( btw is it obvious that we haven't , at this time, broken anyffing ? or not )
mircea_popescu: good thing we have strong entreopy, to run serpent off it.
mircea_popescu: this should be a series of fucking cartoons.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's obvious, we don't even know serpent is in fact no good, hence "you persuasively suggest may not be good (but not actually done the work to turn that suggestive theory in practice)"
asciilifeform: i dun actually have pill ! ( i.e. you're in roughly same position as prior )
asciilifeform: we already ~did~ know that it has no proof of nonretardation, when picked it up
asciilifeform: so that aint news
asciilifeform: say tomorrow mircea_popescu finds out that factoring is in P . will rage ? at whom ? what if he finds it himself, without any help ?
mircea_popescu: i will guaranteedly rage.
asciilifeform: rage, it's good for circulation. but then come back an' think.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and so would alf, when he finds out ; and so on.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 00:15 asciilifeform: motherFUCKing whisperers.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you have my word that i did not sit on 'ceiling tiles', posted immediately when got'em.
asciilifeform: fwiw.
mircea_popescu: it's healthy, let alone necessary, to rage in certain circumstances. this here being a fine fucking example -- because i still not for a second believe had you earnestly sat ass down in 2015 you couldn't have earned that 10 coin.
asciilifeform: and if i had'em in 1998, would've posted in '98.
asciilifeform: cuz wainot.
mircea_popescu: and i have like a strong suspicion that nothing else you did hence had the same btc/hour return, either.
asciilifeform: i still dun have a proper 'winner' for that tourney ! and neither does anybody else
asciilifeform: for all i know it is not even possible.
asciilifeform: ferfuxxsake we still don't know the complexity class factoring falls into.
asciilifeform: or whether rsa reduces to factoring.
asciilifeform: or even whether P != NP.
mircea_popescu: yes, but wrong approach to it all! "here's why serpent's no good, here's why i don't like dea-aes etc, here's rabin method, imo best" IS something.
mircea_popescu: whereas nothing is nothing.
asciilifeform: i dun have a 'it's no good'
asciilifeform: i have a 'i want to find out what it loox like in algebraic form , let's fpga it'
mircea_popescu: as much as you have now, could have been had then! for, literally, 1-2 man-days, at teh most. you dispute this ?
asciilifeform: incidentally 90% written fpgaization
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nope.
asciilifeform: couldn't.
mircea_popescu: sooo! what portion of this do you dispute ?
asciilifeform: that 'could have then'
mircea_popescu: "<mircea_popescu> as much as you have now, could have been had then! for, literally, 1-2 man-days, at teh most. you dispute this ?" "<asciilifeform> mircea_popescu: nope. couldn't" "<mircea_popescu> sooo! what portion of this do you dispute ?" "<asciilifeform> that 'could have then' "
mircea_popescu: which branch we keep of this contradictory 1=0 ?
asciilifeform: i suppose if the gods had whispered into my ear 'go algebraize the scheduler, even tho it is not actually needed for any implementation, and you'll find buried treasure', would've dug
asciilifeform: but they did not .
mircea_popescu: so a review of extant candidates is not a self-obvious first step in attempting to sit down for such a competition ?
asciilifeform: reviewed !
asciilifeform: it's how even ended up with serpent.
mircea_popescu: but...
mircea_popescu: reviewed what, oversuperficially ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: from your pov, find is obvious ? ( if obvious, why are we the first to find it ? )
asciilifeform: if tomorrow i tell mircea_popescu how to build death ray, will rage, 'why didntcha back in '98' ?
mircea_popescu: here's the one point i am making, overarchingly and i should hope as loudly as humanly possible : ~THERE IS MAJOR BREAKAGE IN THE EVAL FUNCTION~, whereby man looks at 10btc in 2015, thinks "$500" or w/e it was, and then goes "the amt of anti-superficial $500 buys me is one hour, not one day nor one week".
mircea_popescu: BECAUSE, bitcoin, and ~everything else in the republic this bitcoin is the currency of, ~~~EVERYTHING ELSE~~~~ has a very unlinear time function.
mircea_popescu: dimes from 2015 are millions in 2020, this sort of thing.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i ( and afaik nobody else ) actually put substantial effort into playing in yer tourney
asciilifeform: so i dun see from where this .
mircea_popescu: if you swear so i'll believe,
mircea_popescu: because i like you,
asciilifeform: i do so swear.
asciilifeform: in fact i still dig for 'winner' even tho nobody offers prize !
mircea_popescu: but the manager in me wouldn't never buy it, because management goes a certain way, and distrusts a certain way.
asciilifeform: cuz i want one for own self
asciilifeform: i dun work for prizes, medals, mircea_popescu knows this.
mircea_popescu: yes, certainly.
asciilifeform: if i worked for medals, would work in derpistan academy of sciences, rather than with mircea_popescu et al
mircea_popescu: why, our medals are way the fuck cooler.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu mod6: Here's the data center's info to get the wire to them
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: point being, i actually take the 'causes, not purposes' thing seriously. even have a poster ver. of it, for pet.
mircea_popescu: but this aside -- i suspect you also don't work... how shall i put this... everyone's eval-er that keeps them from making coffin liners works on some heuristics. and i suspect your heuristics are out of whack with the insanity that is bitcoin. ie, the important and the unimportant don't get all that clearly separated.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo ty. will proceed forthwith, shall keep you posted.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: dunno about this. even 3y ago i saw 10coin as a fortune.
asciilifeform: to this day i take erry possible chance to buy some up, when i got with what.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: No, thank you for the liquidity
mircea_popescu: hey, "why didn't you see the goat" is in the end a boundless question, "i just fucking didn't. i don';t know why, obviously it's there, but i did not see it"
asciilifeform: ( and from-whom. in e.g. 2009 i did not have any friends with coin, and loathed to use 'exchanges' )
mircea_popescu: comes up in eg expert oncologist training lots more than anyone'd like.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'm moar of a coroner than oncologist.
mircea_popescu: point being, "this spot here"
mircea_popescu: "why did you not see this spot here"
asciilifeform: if could always see 'this spot here', folx would live ~4evah
asciilifeform: 'don't cross that road' 'don't get on that plane'
mircea_popescu: anyway, no, i'm not married to serpent. i don't even fucking like it that much. i even said so!
asciilifeform: aha!
mircea_popescu: it does ~seem~ to be weaker than my own intel indicates, but fuck that spot.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'm actually ready to believe that we're finders of actual find, rather than 'quimby is laughing'
asciilifeform: i simply cannot rule out the hypothesis of 'quimby laughs' entirely, is all.
mircea_popescu: entirely possibly ; wouldn't even be the first time, at that.
asciilifeform: there is btw a deeper point re key-expanders -- there is a fundamental contradiction between two of the things that folx both want from 'cryptographic hash'. one one hand, they demand 'not reversible', but on other hand they ~also~ demand 'conserves key space'
mircea_popescu: yes! hence the shredder!
mircea_popescu: quite exactly fundamental.
asciilifeform: but if a transform is injective, it is necessarily reversible.
asciilifeform: but! if it is not injective! then you have collisions waiting for you.
mircea_popescu: no, cuz could be non-bijective the other way!
asciilifeform: hm?
asciilifeform: if there's 1 possible output for each input, then it's an 'sbox' , and reversible ( potentially )
asciilifeform: the only way to guarantee non-reversibility , is to lose sumthing
asciilifeform: ( e.g. multiplication of primes, is a ~conjectured~ trapdoor, we dun have any provable trapdoors, nobody ever discovered such afaik )
mircea_popescu: F(A)->B : bijective : each A has one and exactly one B correspondent. injective : each A has one value ; surjective if each B is corresponded.
mircea_popescu: nfi what anglo terminology is, but -- obviously all bijective functions are reversible ; however there's TWO ways in which to not be bijective.
asciilifeform: 1 is that you lose bits somewhere ; what's the other ?
mircea_popescu: you reject some plaintexts.
mircea_popescu: i guess
asciilifeform: i.e. 'sorry, this won't output a hash' ?
mircea_popescu: yes.
asciilifeform: then you still have a hash, simply with unknown input space, neh
asciilifeform: smaller + unknown.
mircea_popescu: something like that.
mircea_popescu: i am mentioning it for completeness. lose ~something~, yes.
asciilifeform: it's essentially what serpent's ( and afaik errybody's ) key inflater already does. except that it doesn't bother to tell you, simply shits out a colliding output.
asciilifeform: there'd still be 1 possible output for erry valid input tho
asciilifeform: ( or >1, nothing in re rejecting some inputs, guarantees that there aint )
mircea_popescu: imo there's a difference between "the hash for this plaintext is undefined" and "we've divided the space of possible plaintexts in synonimy rings for your convenience (which we separated packagely)."
asciilifeform: it is possible to have a hash like this. simplest example,
asciilifeform: err, nope. can't presently think of one.
asciilifeform: ( if mircea_popescu can, i promise to read )
mircea_popescu: anyway, back to it : "blockcipher takes 10 bits of P and no more ; spits out 16 bits of E exactly" a) needs entropy and b) probably reduces to rsa-with-oaep.
mircea_popescu: ie, not a cipher anymore, becomes blockcrypter.
asciilifeform: the other point, is that i dun see why even have key-inflaters. use rng for the fucking key, all of it
mircea_popescu: whole fucking point here is -- we already have strong crypto, can we also get strong (or at least strong-ish) ciphro.
asciilifeform: why this whitening sadness.
asciilifeform: design the cipher around the bitness of the key you actually want to use.
asciilifeform: none of this 'key is 256b but REAL key is 528 bytes' strange
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: btw here, if we must, is an example of an injective key expander that is physically possible, but requires an exotic object : a rsa pub that nobody has the priv to. then can 'hash-expand' by rsa-enciphering message to it.
asciilifeform: afaik the only way to approximate this object is to take, e.g., all of l1, and multiply their public mods together.
asciilifeform: nao i'd still rather have 'the key is the fucking key', but gotta point out for the l0gz that the problem contemplated earlier, is in principle solvable.
asciilifeform: promisetronic, tho, i dun like it.
asciilifeform: it smacks of the nonsense the z-whateveritwascalled people, did
asciilifeform: the 'nobody has priv' is not even a necessary condition, if you can make it so that only the parties who are actually party to the link, have it.
asciilifeform: then it's a perfectly valid injective expand, for whatever purpose.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i dunno this is exotic.
asciilifeform: right, took me a few sec to see that it aint
mircea_popescu: imo very good key expander, other than the fact it's kinda slow.
asciilifeform: not ruinously slow.
asciilifeform: (cult of 'fast on pc' is how we ended up with all kindsa rubbish. if you want sumthing to be fast, folx, bake iron around it! like civilized folx! )
mircea_popescu: (the whole idea behind eg is that the only way for this to work is to have both a key AND an input. which... it is.)
a111: Logged on 2018-10-30 19:50 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ok, how about this : let K being the key n bits long (say 512), and let f(x) = 2 * K[0] * x ^ n + 3 * K[1] * x ^ n-1 + 5 * K[2] * x ^ n-2 + 7 * K[3] * x ^ n-3 + 11 * K[4] * x ^ n-4 +...+ 3643 * K[n-2] * x ^ 2 + 3659 * K[n-1] * x + 3659. f(x) will produce a pile of bits, this pile is cut in half and xored together, the result is cut in half again. one such half is returned as the prng output ; the other such half
mircea_popescu: nothing wrong with using the RSA as the f, but idea remains.
asciilifeform: 'rsa as expander' imho is easier to reduce to 'known difficulty' than 'find roots of ~randomly-picked polynomial' is
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in fact, as eulora comms mandate the parties know at least one rsa key of each other, it becomes eminently possible to use (session-based!) n1*n2 for this purpose.
asciilifeform: correct!
mircea_popescu: in which case yes, it'd seem at least one workable method is for parties to declare F=RSA-n1n2(x) and then use its spew as otp pad for all their stuff.
asciilifeform: ( you want exponentiation, tho, i.e. actual rsa op, or snoop can get n2 by gcd of successive msgs )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform n1^n2, sure, same money.
asciilifeform: back upstack, this is why i even suggested rabinism, it's a less-expensive rsa that actually plugs into this hole.
mircea_popescu: requires new code being baked, which meh.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if you actually need it, i'ma bake it
mircea_popescu: that's ok.
asciilifeform: it's approx 10 lines on top of ch11 .
asciilifeform: ( if mircea_popescu dun need it, i'ma bake it anyway, it's imho a great demo )
asciilifeform: the simplicity and reducibility-to-factoringishard of rabin is appealing, and wai not bake in advance so as mircea_popescu yr later doesn't 'why didntcha!'
mircea_popescu: defensive baking!
asciilifeform: sometimes i suspect that i threw mircea_popescu's 'how hard is $problem' meter out of all possible calibration, given as very often when asciilifeform posts a thing, it is result of year or two of experimentation; and on other hand if i put ~all~ of the intermediates and dead ends into the l0gz, there'd scarcely be any room for anyffing else
asciilifeform: ( as it is asciilifeform floods the l0gz )
mircea_popescu: yes, well, i'm not calibrated by you wth. srsly, what you did to serpent wasn't stroke of genius, but simply spade work. you dispute this ?!
mircea_popescu: and very good that you did it, and yes for some-incomprehensible-reason "people" dun seem to be ever doing it, but it's still what it fucking is -- self evident and systematically applicable to any and all other ciphers.
asciilifeform: spade !
asciilifeform: pretty much errything i do is spade, mircea_popescu !
asciilifeform: i aint got so much else than spade.
mircea_popescu: right.
asciilifeform: at any rate not proposing that i single-handedly uncalibrate mircea_popescu , i suspect that other folx contribute, lol
asciilifeform: it's a problem common to pretty much all folx who experiment regularly with techno-crapolade
mircea_popescu: taking the evident and less fraught example of phuctor -- yes, "tel you what, ima dake djb results and apply!", genius. but "let's actually divide some numbers" absolutely spade, and it is this latter that yielded.
asciilifeform: all i got is , 99% spade, and occasional bit of 'where to spade'
asciilifeform: if i had 100% 'where to spade' , we'd be shooting enemy from atomic dirigible with death ray just nao, rather than this thread.
mircea_popescu: yes, well, the entirety of the morning's discussion reduces to "what the fuck've you been spading, i only hear about serpent-this nao".
asciilifeform: could have very easily done same amt of spading, and not found. i dun even know if i'll find a reduction of the matrix, just yet.
asciilifeform: conceivably if asciilifeform were smarter, would've ~began~ with the scheduler, rather than the sboxes
asciilifeform: in retrospect seems obvious that it's the most questionable bit
mircea_popescu: i suppose this is a major (if unsurprising) moral of this story : always start with what htey don't discuss.
asciilifeform: a++ heuristic, can take to the bank
mircea_popescu: they didn't discuss factored keys re rsa, everything and anything but that -- we went ther,e it yielded.
asciilifeform: all stage magic , lives in 'where are you being distracted from?'
mircea_popescu: the point you make re serpent is solid -- discussions, by the dumptruck. of anything and everything BUT. went there, yielded within the week.
mircea_popescu: gotta become standard republican behaviour, insta-go into the silence.
asciilifeform: gotta go to the place-being-distracted-from.
asciilifeform: ( it aint always obvious just ~where~ that is, enemy is pretty handy with sleight-of-hand )
mircea_popescu: yet a picture is starting to emerge.
asciilifeform: verily
mircea_popescu: "what's the only salient point of #metoo '''mopvement''' aka morons on usg.ugc sites ?" "that it only attaches to people who don't laugh at them."
mircea_popescu: and so in this manner, forevermoar.
asciilifeform: while we're on subj, mircea_popescu had a pretty interesting observation in '16, 'the boecks were rousted because we're on to sumthing, but we dun know precisely what yet'
asciilifeform: i still dun know precisely what
mircea_popescu: the problem with "precisely what" being it's elusive.
asciilifeform: perhaps it's simply the fact of duped p's and q's, but could easily be larger
asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform: btw while we're on subj of spades, asciilifeform is not ( contrary to the apparent picture ) averse to taking input re where to spade.
mircea_popescu: you're very fucking adverse, cuz you have complicated pre-spading requirements.
asciilifeform: dun hesitate to say 'hey this smells like buried goodies'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: at all times i try to keep some reserve of unallocated spade cycles
mircea_popescu: im not disputing you're consciously trying to overcome it. but as a factual matter -- yes, very adverse.
asciilifeform: will also add, some problems my spade dun work on, and take unseemly long time of 'wtf did you do' to even convert into spadeable form with the tooling available to asciilifeform
mircea_popescu: right.
asciilifeform: early trb , for instance. i had nfi how to cure the db locks thing until mircea_popescu supplied the pill.
asciilifeform: prolly would have found it, but who even knows how much digging would have taken.
mircea_popescu: we're not even talking "magic number only dragons know" sorta items here. take the easy example of "go dig up qatar/uruguay/whatever", not because im trying to underhandedly make you move but because it's a fabulously easy to see example.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform is not a+++ chukcha talker / polar explorer, this aint a seekrit, that crown goes to others.
mircea_popescu: yes, but asciilifeform is not because complicated pre-spading requirements, not because asciilifeform ~actually is not~.
mircea_popescu: and this exact same problem translates in the realm of theoretical work, also.
asciilifeform: it's a cost of specialization / finite hrs in the day. i suppose i could prolly become a middling-to-ok chukcha talker, instead of what i do nao, if comes to it. but i dun think i will ever be a champ, i dun have the decades of doing it, that other folx have.
mircea_popescu: except time doesn\t work this way.
mircea_popescu: take ; the one thing the bimbo whose summaries you don't like and whose marked improvement over time you disparage had to say was "oh, great idea. we did that at purdue, made a lot of money." she happens to be right, too ; she also hasn't the decades of doing this. or anything else, for that matter -- she can barely speak english.
a111: Logged on 2018-08-24 18:39 mircea_popescu: a shop of used computer parts is a great complement for a dc op.
mircea_popescu: time dun do what you think time does.
asciilifeform: 'time' aint a scalar, no, time spend balleting when yer 5 y.o. counts infinitely moar than same when yer 40
asciilifeform: if what you want is to be world class balletist
mircea_popescu: the only passible definition of intelligence i am aware of is, "the reunion of fields of human activity where the time-function has no age-relation."
mircea_popescu: so yes, in ballet. BUT THERE ONLY, for the purposes of this discussion.
asciilifeform: 'can ya play violin?' 'dunno, not tried yet'
mircea_popescu: yes, basketball-ballet and stripper-ballet and all other ballets.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform is not , in his opinion, inept to the point of vegetable, but must say that prolly could not do what Mocky did, at least within the budget that he did it in
asciilifeform: so it is good that there is a Mocky
asciilifeform: for that matter, earlier, BingoBoingo : a++ terraformer
mircea_popescu: and this, because Mocky had decades talking to orcs that alf didn't get ?
mircea_popescu: then men in question would disagree, i suspect.
asciilifeform: could simply have moar talent
mircea_popescu: funny thing this tarent, that's at the same time lale and turns out to be arways thele.
mircea_popescu: or something.
asciilifeform brb,teatime
Mocky: I didn't have any more experience talking to orcs than chatting up chicks or writing c++, or rebuilding my bike engine back in the day, or fixing a million and one things for the first time. I don't know shit about shit. I never did
Mocky: i know about raising kids, now that they are grown. and I know about java now that I'm sick of it
mircea_popescu: kinda how this goes.
Mocky: but there's no way this kind of spade work is going to be harder than trying to wrap my head around code for hours. I always came out on top of the code, so what I'm not gonna figure out how to talk to people if actually try?
mircea_popescu: in fact a lot of everything is very much like -- before republic tells you to go figure out talking to people, you don't know you can because you don't know to think to try.
a111: Logged on 2018-11-01 17:49 asciilifeform: could have lived for 100 yrs and looked daily and not found.
Mocky: unrelatedly, "In its IPO prospectus, Qatar Aluminium Manufacturing Company said one of the strategic objectives is to maximize shareholder returns by increasing financial returns." -Gulf Times fishwrap
Mocky: such strategy
mircea_popescu: hey, if there didn't exist a bunch of unwashed morons polluting san francisco bay area, such obvious statements wouldn't be needed.
mircea_popescu: buit as it is -- it's good to know they aim to make money as opposed to satisfy the tweeting hordes.
mircea_popescu: linux, for instance, has a "code of conduct" instead.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform speaking of "taking suggestions" : suppose you bake me a proper drop-in gpg replacement. in ada, constant time, does FG-aware keygen, signing, verification, and encryption/decription. 100% rsa, none of the "cipher" bs as per current.
mircea_popescu: ima pay s.nsa a coupla bitcoin for your trouble, and donate the result to the republic, in lieu of donating moar money to the dead end foundation.
mircea_popescu: ideally also has compatibility layer, which allows it to import gpg 2.0 and 1.4 style keys (and converts them to republican format), verify gpg 2.0 and 1.4 sigs and decrypt gpg 2.0 and 1.4 messages (but not encrypt to them).
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: happens to be exactly what i set out to; on top of that, even got a gpg extractor (currently in py, but slated for adaization) , precisely for same
asciilifeform: it is possible that there's some format gnarl that i haven't accounted for , tho, i haven't tried erry elephantine key on it ( should really test by walking phuctor db )
asciilifeform: definitely fails on uniturds
asciilifeform: will have to specify the exact meaning of 'drop-in replace' tho, i suspect you dun actually want the keychain bs for instance
asciilifeform: ( or e.g. subkeyism )
asciilifeform: sounds like 'polish off the bloody bignum thing already!', lol. matrix reduction will have to wait, then.
mircea_popescu: well, drop-in in the sense that once it's published ima ask trinque for a timetable for moving deedbot to using it ; and future aspirants to registration will have to use it, bake their own equivalent, or get lost.
asciilifeform: ( if, btw, somebody else has the time/inclination to do the latter, i'll only say 'thx'. thing is already in xor-sat form, roll the constant term into the eqn's, set $known-schedule as the output values, and gaussian-reduce... )
mircea_popescu: nothing wrong with giving that a breather, see where heroes may lie hidden in the woodwork.
asciilifeform: let the heroes rise!
asciilifeform: sword -- right there in that stone.
mircea_popescu: exact sort of thing the very bite-ful "fuck you, world, you're not good enough to play" is articulated out of.
mircea_popescu: "if you were good enough -- you would have had."
asciilifeform re-rotates desk to ffa pile
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: once we have the basic variant going, can then take some of the slowbite out of it with asmism etc
bvt: hi, i have made some exploration of linux syscall interface (using musl)
bvt: can't say these results are any useful until i write a summary (todo for saturday).
bvt: i also intend to genesis a ffatronic base64 encoder/decoder that i wrote as an exercise (also todo for the weekend).
mircea_popescu: trinque can be added also plox ?
mircea_popescu: bvt what's a "bvt" anyway ?
trinque: sure
bvt: mircea_popescu: acronym from my name
BingoBoingo: In local news, some old dryed up bag is talking about how Uruguay should break off relations with Brasil.
deedbot: << Qntra - Alleged CIA Leaker Schulte Alleged to Continue Leaking USG Seekrits From Jail
mircea_popescu: top keks
BingoBoingo: 4real
asciilifeform: lulzy that they din't simply poison him yet
asciilifeform: just how much work is it, srsly
BingoBoingo: Can't afford it
asciilifeform: milosevich yes, rando no ?
asciilifeform: what sense does it make.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the talking bags don'\t actually do anything or matter in any sense. it's like going "i wonder why dickens' characters didn't murder dickens, he's such a tedious pile of crap"
BingoBoingo: They only had to poison one milosevich
mircea_popescu: how THE FUCK are figments of imagination gonna kill some dude ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: erry once in a while when planets align , these dickens chars step out of the page and actually do sumthing, neh
BingoBoingo: You poison a rando you gotta poison the rando stoolies or pay them off to not notice you poisoned the rando they were told to keep tabs on in exchange for getting prettier twinks in their block
mircea_popescu: yes, i get it, if those characters lucked out with a better author, they wouldn't be so fork-eyeingly boring and trite and omfg enough already.
mircea_popescu: but whaty are they to do
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform neh.
mircea_popescu: you're contemplating something along the lines of "today nov 1st the sun rose because someone said ''the sun also rises'' in a book"
asciilifeform: so model is, 'dog barks, caravan moves' ?
mircea_popescu: quite.
BingoBoingo: Today the sun did not in fact rise. At some point the thick clouds dispersed and it was already up
mircea_popescu: ro is "ciinii latra, caravana trece", ie, dogs bark, caravan passes, which imo slightly better.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo ikr.
BingoBoingo: Local medical student was stabbed and body dumped on Playa Ramirez near Parque Rodo. Peruana's interpretation is "Don't walk Playa Pocitos so late at night"
mircea_popescu: "and if you do, give better head"
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: lol! why wasn't it, e.g., 'don't menstruate so much' ? betcha victim menstruated!11
mircea_popescu: fact : no female that sucked a mean cock was ever stabbed at night.
BingoBoingo: Apparently it was dude medical student
asciilifeform: lolx2
mircea_popescu: not even clear anyth9ing's been contradicted :D
BingoBoingo: I don't know everything going on on the west side of Bulevard Artigas, but on my side the people getting robbed are getting robbed repeatedly because they can't quit their prey behaviors
BingoBoingo: There's folks who whine in the paper that everyone in their family has been robbed twice, yet they fail to wonder "is something wrong with my family?"
mircea_popescu: doh.
mircea_popescu: nothing could ever be wrong with any fambly!!!
BingoBoingo: Seriously though, asciilifeform has met me in person and confirm I am not built like a person who should be seeking out fights. Yet... It isn't rare to be walking about and the sight of some local dork fires something in the brain roughly equivalent to "they aren't as opprosed as they are signalling they should be"
BingoBoingo: *oppressed
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: fwiw asciilifeform walked all around the town, at ~all hrs, not only not stabbed but not even insulted, by orcs
BingoBoingo: Right, because why when the local orcs themselves are the softest targets
asciilifeform: i suspect it takes some serious effort to get stabbed in BingoBoingostan
BingoBoingo: It appears to take the occurrence of a serious cascade of failure.
BingoBoingo: And most of the self identified repeat victims don't recieve more than whatever bumps were necessary to abscond with their shit
asciilifeform: whatcha up to these days, shinohai
BingoBoingo: Ah, here's the latest on the floater
shinohai: Heya asciilifeform .... stopped in to grab some keyz from deedbot, gonna try and update my trb with yer patches
trinque: I've lived in some pretty terrible shitholes, always seems that the ones that get picked out on the street wanted to be, on some level
trinque: hola shinohai
shinohai: hola trinque que hay de bueno?
trinque: hackin up the rest of this loser flu that stood no chance.
trinque: yourself?
shinohai: Just battled a round of that meself and won. Whiskey and limon ^.^
mircea_popescu: goldenho little red tab next to this one.
shinohai: Greetings mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: heya.
shinohai feels nostalgic watching a trb happily sing along again ....
billymg: hi all, sorry i've been away for a bit. last weekend ended up being a social one and tonight's the first chance i've had to poke around with vtools
billymg: managed to press vtools and use vdiff to create a patch of the css tweaks for the "default" theme included in mp-wp
billymg: however, it's not including the file hashes in the diff
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: soo asciilifeform had a bit of sleep and wakes up and turns out the serpent thing has a twist ending
asciilifeform: shall i spoil it or not ?
asciilifeform: hm, loox like he went to sleep, i suppose i'ma spoil it tomorrow...
asciilifeform: ( but yes it's a proper ending, not a 'more studies needed'(tm)(r) )
asciilifeform bbl,meat
phf: << must be the dreaded ada/c interop. which version of gnat, which os are you using?
a111: Logged on 2018-11-02 01:37 billymg: however, it's not including the file hashes in the diff
billymg: hey phf, i'm using my pizarro rockchip as my current workbench
billymg: i'm very new to all of this, how do i check the version of gnat?
phf: billymg: did it come pre installed? you can do gnatmake --version for a point of reference
billymg: ahh, that would be it then. i don't seem to have ada, etc. installed
billymg: i'll emerge and try again
phf: wait, but how did you compile it??
billymg: compile vtools?
mircea_popescu: this is a great conversation.
phf: i suspect you only have the first patch applied, which comes with a makefile, and which will indeed produce a vdiff that doesn't know how to hash
phf: billymg: at the top of your vtools directory, is there a file called "Makefile" and is there are file called "vdiff.gpr"?
billymg: a Makefile, yes, but don't see a vdiff.gpr
billymg: i ran `make` after pressing and got a `vdiff` binary, used that one
billymg: fwiw, i pressed at the keccak.vpatch level
asciilifeform: billymg: you can't 'emerge' gnat on the rk, the only known arm64 gnat is ave1's, and presently gotta be hand-emplaced
billymg: got it
asciilifeform: it's slated for inclusion in cuntoo, so at some point will come standard on rk, but that day not yet come
billymg: ok, phf, i pressed again at `vdiff_keccak.vpatch`, now i have those files in my vtools directory
billymg: and make failed with
asciilifeform: cuz no gnat, lol
billymg: right haha
phf: ^
billymg: makes sense nao
billymg: mircea_popescu: happy i was able to provide a bit of light entertainment
phf: vtools_genesis is a very reduced gnu diff, which has a place for hash, but doesn't know how to produce one, until either sha or keccak is attached in later patches
billymg: phf: ty and apologies for the simple questions. definitely learned a few more things about v this evening
billymg: is this the right place to start reading to get gnat installed?
asciilifeform: aha
mircea_popescu: billymg don't take it the wrong way ; nothing wrong with not knowing things. i don't know most of them either.
mircea_popescu: and isn't it great that our code of conduct prevents me from actually telling you how i feel about the matter. /sarcasm
mircea_popescu: (somehow the femtards never seem to figure the fucking obvious, "agreeing to be nice" can only possibly result in folger's friendship and no genuine anything to be had anywhere.... god i fucking hate 'em.)

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