mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this isn't much of an argument, let alone "proof". + and * also conserve entropy, yet y=x/2 - x/2 +4 does not.
Mocky: or a more direct counter argument: A xor A = 0
a111: Logged on 2018-10-29 03:26 asciilifeform: nao, exercise for the reader : find the bandwidth of this channel ( how many bits , if more than one, can be stuffed into a block and still preserve this property ) ...
mircea_popescu: consider the sets P {1,2,3,4} and E {1,2,3,4,5}. now, the function taking all numbers <4 to themselvews and 4 to either 4 or 5 with 50-50 probability IS in fact reversible
mircea_popescu: i can reverse it, cuz P4 or P5 are E4 so i need to now nothing.
mircea_popescu: consider the sets P {1,2,3,4} and E {1,2,3,4,5}. now, the function taking all numbers <4 to themselvews and 4 to either 4 or 5 with 50-50 probability IS in fact reversible (because E5 and E4 are directly P4). is however not in fact entropy conserving.
mircea_popescu: it is entropy* conserving, where entropy* is a special "entropy-colored-for-meaning", but this isn't useful.
mircea_popescu: the problem with one's preoblems is that they rarely have the decency.
mircea_popescu: the function which takes all numbers <4 to themselves and all numbers >4 to 4.
asciilifeform: W(6) = RLeft11(xor(g,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))),RLeft11(xor(d,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)),RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))))))),RLeft11(xor(f,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)),RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))))),RLeft11(xor(e,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))),RLeft11(xor(d,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)),RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h))))))))))))))
asciilifeform: W(7) = RLeft11(xor(h,RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))))),RLeft11(xor(e,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))),RLeft11(xor(d,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)),RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))))))))),RLeft11(xor(g,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))),RLeft11(xor(d,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)),RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))))))),RLeft11(xor(f,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)
asciilifeform: but after this, it chews the cud, e.g. W(8) = RLeft11(xor(RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)),RLeft11(xor(d,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)),RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))))))),RLeft11(xor(f,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)),RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))))),RLeft11(xor(e,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))),RLeft11(xor(d,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)),RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h))))))
asciilifeform: )))))),RLeft11(xor(h,RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))))),RLeft11(xor(e,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))),RLeft11(xor(d,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)),RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))))))))),RLeft11(xor(g,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))),RLeft11(xor(d,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)),RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))))))),RLeft11(xor(f,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the objection you had, you know, "this is trivially true but is not what we want" goes very much to the core of the issue -- cryptographic notions of strength are very hard to meaningfully describe mathematically because htey're always "obviously this has ONE trivial solution, but does it have more than the one ?!" math deals in 0 and 1s, it's ill equipped to deal with this batshit nonsense.
mircea_popescu: right. anyway, back to the practicals -- are sbox outputs ~equiprobable~ ?
a111: Logged on 2018-10-29 15:53 mircea_popescu: it is entropy* conserving, where entropy* is a special "entropy-colored-for-meaning", but this isn't useful.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-29 16:06 asciilifeform: nao, is it a controversial statement that xors with an item that's already been rolled in, can only ~subtract~ entropy, never add ?
mircea_popescu: the reason being that it wasn't gonna move till i baked it in some pie.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform consider also that if a, b, c, d, e, f are rng words, then (P xor a) xor b) etc does not in fact substract anything.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform likely explanation being "whisperer", ie, technical quimby sinking it behind the doors because "it's fucking stupid".
a111: Logged on 2018-10-26 16:48 mircea_popescu: i am experimenting with serpent, and yes it's borne of that ancient discussion of ours, but i'm nowhere near-ready to bake it into "this is tmsr secure disk"
a111: Logged on 2018-10-26 17:04 mircea_popescu: in short, because this winding discussion risks overwhelming buffers, the salient points are a) that i'm not ready to go to war over serpent, it's a meh-maybe item ; b) that building our spearheads around items we're not willing to die for may be how the converse of
http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=bitcoin+corrupts altogether.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: If your math stands the week, you may be the best qualified to do the qntra on it
a111: Logged on 2018-10-26 17:05 mircea_popescu: yeah but suppose some bright kid walks into here one day with that item we all suspect is under a rock somewhere
mircea_popescu: bright kid walks in with a convincing story as to how he's gonna walk in with item != bright kid walks into here one day with that item.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, yes re original - I could not source it and no idea why
diana_coman: I can cite though from the 2000 paper (or apparently 2000...): "Since then we have sought to strengthen the algorithm and improve its performance. As a result, we have selected new, stornger, S-boxes and changed the key schedule slightly."
mircea_popescu: i'd have said more, but the editor showed wordcount 777, and i deem this a very good omen re cipher quality.
mircea_popescu: ow shit, i mystypoed in the title, wtf is a "chipher".
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform like it or not, this is the ur-blockchipher. ALL OTHERS, not only casually but NECESSARILY, are mini-clipped versions of this. "competition or no competition", if it got shitboxes it's this and naught else.
mircea_popescu: and no, "we have pre-padded ring buffers with THIS particular message that's worth hardwiring because it's ever so magical" ain't a reasoning.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, that helps, thank you! I had to take break and I'm slow on this sort of things so it'll take a while until I get to say anything
mircea_popescu: "our block cipher has to have backdoor because we built a paper shredder and well..."
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is so much better than having to correct the title.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-29 19:22 diana_coman: asciilifeform, that helps, thank you! I had to take break and I'm slow on this sort of things so it'll take a while until I get to say anything
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform check this out : as per the "chipher", let there be a plaintext P of n bits ; and a key K of k bits. given a ciphertext E of n bits, it is a fact that any one bit of P is the result of xoring of up to k bits of P. if you know K you know ~which ones~, and as you have E you know ~what they must xor to~. this results in a message-wide system of k equations which is determinate.
mircea_popescu: (provided of course k>=n, which yes, it's a block cipher)
mircea_popescu: so this is, in fact, a system of (here) 512 xor-equations, with ak nown result (e[x]) and a known parameter matrix (K)
mircea_popescu: as long as P doesn't have more bits than K, this is a determinate system.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-29 18:29 asciilifeform: it's about xor, in the specific style used in winblowz shitware to hide strings from av.
mircea_popescu: Consider K = 01010 ; P = 00111 ; RB = (00111), (01110), (11100), (11001), (10011).
mircea_popescu: E therefore is : E1 = 0 x 0 x 1 = 0 ; E2 = 0 x 0 x 1 = 0 ; E3 = 1 x 1 x 0 = 0 ; E4 = 1 x 1 x 0 = 1 ; E5 = 1 x 1 x 1 = 0 thus E = 00010.
mircea_popescu: To now obtain P back from E and K : P[1] = P[1] x P[2] x P[4] ; P[2] = P[2] x P[3] x P[5] ; P[3] = P[3] x P[4] x P[1] ; P[4] = P[4] x P[5] x P[2] ; P[5] = P[5] x P[0] x P[3].
mircea_popescu: To obtain P back from E without K : P[1] = P[1] x K[1] * P[1] x K[2] * P[2] x K[3] * P[3] x K[4] * P[4] x K[5] * P[5] ; P[2] = P[2] x K[1] * P[2] x K[2] * P[3] x K[3] * P[4] x K[4] * P[5] x K[5] * P[6] ; and so following all the way down.
mircea_popescu: so : with K it's a system of 5 equations with 5 unknowns ; without K it's a system of 5 equations with 10 unknowns.
mircea_popescu: for a 5 bit key you only have to try 2^3 permutations or so, it's true. but anyways.
mircea_popescu: E[1] = P[1] x P[2] x P[4] ; P[2] = P[2] x P[3] x P[5] is what i meant.
mircea_popescu: no no, x is xor * is multiplication (in the sense that if the key is 0 at that offset, the rb dun get applied)
mircea_popescu: so if K[q] = 0, then that line's skipped ; otherwise it's applied.
mircea_popescu: to be clear : it's exactly the same scheme ; showing you how P ~must~ be obtainable from known K and E.
BingoBoingo: In other updates: Cansorship resistance piece approaching 1500 words and has yet to advance beyond 2014 Republican state of the art.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-29 19:39 asciilifeform: pretty handy proof , however, that the xor liquishit on the right hand side of those serpent eqs, doesn't conserve entropy !
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you agree that if i give you 5 equations with 5 unknowns, this is in fact resolvable ?
a111: Logged on 2018-10-29 06:45 Mocky: or a more direct counter argument: A xor A = 0
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform K = 0101, P = 1110. RB = (1110), (1101), (1011), (0111). E1 = 1 x 1 x 0 = 1 ; E2 = 1 x 1 x 1 = 0 ; E3 = 1 x 0 x 1 = 0 ; E4 = 0 x 1 x 1 = 0 ; E = 1000.
mircea_popescu: unless you're willing do debug the .py, it's spitting out wrong values.
mircea_popescu: lmao ima have to redo this. apparently im terrible at handmaffs
mircea_popescu: K = 0101, P = 1110. RB = (1110), (1101), (1011), (0111). E1 = 1 x 1 x 0 = 0 ; E2 = 1 x 1 x 1 = 1 ; E3 = 1 x 0 x 1 = 0 ; E4 = 0 x 1 x 1 = 1 ; E = 0101 ?
mircea_popescu: K = 0101, P = 1110. RB = (1110), (1101), (1011), (0111). E1 = 1 x 1 x 0 = 0 ; E2 = 1 x 1 x 1 = 1 ; E3 = 1 x 0 x 1 = 0 ; E4 = 0 x 1 x 1 = 0 ; E = 0100.
mircea_popescu: by now, covered all the possible combinations of 4 bits (ain't that many) -- but never fell on the mp.py 1010.
mircea_popescu: i don't actually follow your proggy any ; regardless, the values it spits dun seem to agree with what i expect.
mircea_popescu: if we manage to fixate on a specific datapoint we'd prolly benefit here.
mircea_popescu: on the other hand, entirely unclear to me why the fuck we're discussing some [evidently buggy/misimplemented] program or my own inept handcalculus. either we agree a system of n equations with n unknowns is determinate or we don't and that's the end of the matter.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-29 16:52 asciilifeform: a proggy that takes a 256b key and shits out its 4+ sister-keys, prolly wouldnt hurt, either; if somebody can be arsed to write.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-29 16:18 asciilifeform: so! for instance ! if a, d, f, h are such that xor(a,d,f,h) = 0, then term a no longer appears in the equation at all !
a111: Logged on 2018-10-29 16:19 asciilifeform: so all possible inputs where this holds , result in the same inflated-key.
diana_coman: ale for the choice of underlying primitive polynomial but I'm still fuzzy on what goes on in there exactly
BingoBoingo: ^ asciilifeform mod6 mircea_popescu Please correct me if I have misunderstood anything
BingoBoingo: If the censorship resistance piece survives peer review, Imma test it on some orcs and start using it as my explainer to heathens for why the fuck I am in this hell hole
BingoBoingo: !Q later tell nicoleci please use irc instead of linked in messaging
mircea_popescu: also, dubious expressions, a collection : "to understand that why they want" ; "if your words actual words are avaible" ; "manufacter a pretext" ; "lack anyway to know" ; "the manufactered insecurity" ; "maladapted in ways invite bullying."
mircea_popescu: but the main issue is that this reads like an approximately sorted succession of conclusions. painfully absent a) the logical justification for the various sentences and b) a very clear indication of structure, how they all work together ; from this b there would then flow a much better a.
BingoBoingo: I'll look into that too, since moving to mp-wp should have alleviated that.
BingoBoingo: Anyways, having stepped away from the shovel and rereading I realize I also left out any timelines of the frog boiling
mircea_popescu: remember back in 2013, when the power-rangers genuinely thought htey had an existence, of their own and by themselves, entirely outside of my say-so ?
BingoBoingo: I remember reading the original mice and men piece on Trilema and thinking "I gotta start fixing myself"
mod6: I'm just sitting over here, pondering The Foundation monthly address...
BingoBoingo: Anyways, with the blog business I have resigned myself to the medium's resistance to my filling it. Treating the blog as a notebook that I happen to let others read (A habit I have been suggesting Latinas mulling the blog hobby adopt) I accept there is no shame in rewriting.
BingoBoingo: I can't effectively read anything without having reread it first, and I can't write pieces over 300 words without needing to rewrite them.
mircea_popescu: hey, forum forces changes in people ; i used to do multiple articles/day (even have days with 12+!) ; nowadays do maaaybe two a week. it's what it is.
mircea_popescu: start with a theoretical idea of blog, resign to how it practically works.
mod6: Also, I finally ate the whole block chain again with my node; it's currently syncing the final ~2000 blocks. Should be back up and running fully in the next day or two. Yes, totally got a full back just in case.
BingoBoingo: With some low stakes matters like the cannabis piece I trust myself to do the rewriting, hence the long turn around time. For a piece on Republican doctrine, the republic's gotta weigh in on a draft
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo fwiw i believe bansky makes a way the fuck better example than weev.
BingoBoingo: And one thing that clicks off and on with me is how very much Qntra as a herald and wire service is very much not a blog
mod6: (noad running with mod6_excise_hash_truncation.vpatch + mod6_phexdigit_fix.vpatch (reground, not yet posted because keccak) + asciilifeform_whogaveblox.vpatch
mod6: (alf's patch reground onto phexdigit -- for my peronsal use only at this point)
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Banksy is as best as I can tell unrepentant Pantsuit scum working for USG.blue
BingoBoingo: I use weev as the example for the tragedy of him having touched the republic and missed the point.
mircea_popescu: but yes, sure, i can see the oedipian tragedy of weev.
BingoBoingo: If you go on 60 minutes, I assume you are going to have them read the articles of surrender while the girls affix their cock cages
mircea_popescu: well yeah but i mean... so he was on simpsons. i dun see the logic.
mod6: lol 186.52.149.227 bombing me with bastards
BingoBoingo: As best as I can tell banksy does this vague anti-capitalist, anti-fascist schtick to much pantsuitist adoration while a substantial number of nytimes-ish media folk seem to be in on the seekrit
BingoBoingo: I just have trouble seeing what is supposed to make banksy cool
BingoBoingo: As opposed to another john oliver turning parody into cancer
a111: Logged on 2014-07-19 02:47 Pierre_Rochard: WHCD stands for White House Correspondents Dinner, where journalists go to pretend like they’re doing shit
mod6: maybe i just caught a bad run from ya
mircea_popescu: it's true nobody but ny outfits with ~0 readership or influence a la
http://trilema.com/2017/party-monster/ ever mention it. but it seemed to me more the case of "look at st james' desperation to pretend like he's hanging on" than any sort of active pushing.
mircea_popescu: where the fuck is that line, i recall putting the dork's current fake media effort in the logs at some point, for the 0 readers 0 anything lulz.
mircea_popescu: now i can't even find it anymore. talk about fade-out.
BingoBoingo: I'd take banksy a lot more seriously if he caught the bad side of the feds, won on appeal, touched the republic, then decided he could stack his own chairs just fine as he proceeded on his moon mission
mircea_popescu: (incidentally, for the midden diggers : that "club kids" crew actually invented the pantsuit. yes it's true hilary stwart wore it on tv before going to jail, so it became popular with her fat old white women crowd. but before she could wear it, someone had to make it -- and they did. "here, this is the unitard. This and a hat was basically the whole thing. You can get different hats and I guess paint your face to look differe
mod6: CALL 1-900-PANT-SUIT RIGHT NOW TO ORDER YOURS! JUST FIVE EASY INSTALLMENTS OF $12.99! ORDER NOW AND GET AN ENTIRE SECOND UNITARD OUTFIT, FREEEEE!!!!111
mircea_popescu: meanwhile at mp compound, "martha stewart is the one with the conviction and the late night cable tv infomercials. hilary clinton in the one with the failed bids to everything" "you seriously expect me to distinguish these two ? how ?!"
BingoBoingo: Martha Stewart lost by partnering with Kmart, Clinton lost by being a loser all on her own
mircea_popescu: well, she partnered with "i was in the situation room!!!! SITTING THERE!!!! WHERE WERE YOU >?!?!?!?!"
BingoBoingo: New York has done nothing in the interim to redeem its city or its people
BingoBoingo still laments the lack of reddit bags off shore as I go to visit the harmonics lab
BingoBoingo: <mod6> CALL 1-900-PANT-SUIT RIGHT NOW TO ORDER YOURS! JUST FIVE EASY INSTALLMENTS OF $12.99! ORDER NOW AND GET AN ENTIRE SECOND UNITARD OUTFIT, FREEEEE!!!!111 << mod6 you would be amazed the things they let people finance here in 18 monthly payments
mod6: lol. i was buying a fishing pole in Show Low the other week... a guy put an 870 on the counter for "Lay-away". I was kinda blown away that still existed.
BingoBoingo: And 870 when I left was anywhere from $250 to $1500
mod6: used to be... now probably like 700-800 maybe.
BingoBoingo: In Uruguay a 300 USD shotgun sells for at least 650 USD
mod6: anyway, i guess thats not very redic. i just had it in my mind that a man comes in to buy shotgun. pays, leaves with shotgun. doesn't do very much good if it's still at the store when you need it.
mod6: BingoBoingo: I believe it. It's probably hard to aquire firearms down there 'eh?
BingoBoingo: mod6: Still easy by Latin American standards by the book. Easier off the book per the traditional methods.
BingoBoingo: For the record I played euphonium in high school, have no idea how a saxophone works
BingoBoingo: Anyways it is amaxing the things that can be had in Uruguay. The grow shops are sitting on piles of borosilicate glass and pointy pieces of titanium because the Uruguayos can't roll good joints and see no reasons to explore alternatives.
BingoBoingo: Yet, try looking for RAM and all of a sudden its fucking junkyard wars
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: the lappy has more ram than I can use
BingoBoingo: At this point I do a lot of pre-emptive shopping
mod6: Good call. Grab that stuff if you see it.
BingoBoingo: Anyways, if anyone wants a PPC machine colo'd in Pizarro feel free to inquire. There's not a deep market, but there is one.
BingoBoingo: G3 and G4 apple portables do pop up for sale here
mod6: can do sparc64 bigE too, probably find even 1U box
BingoBoingo: Looked, apparently Sun Microsystems never shined this far south
BingoBoingo: My back's memory is pretty sure a kitted out Sun Ultra 80 will fail to meet the checked bag weight
mod6: hanbot: Still have interest in an offical Co-Chair seat for the Foundation?
BingoBoingo: Tower, but mini for odd deinfitions of mini. Lots of sharp plastic too
mod6: hanbot nicoleci: Thanks for your hard work this month to get the Toll Free Number setup and going (asciilifeform too). I expect if hanbot were to take an offical Co-Chair seat, she could lead the outreach inititive.
mod6: iirc mircea_popescu said we could even have three chairs(?) might be mis-remembering that (may have to log-dig for that). I'd be happy to continue doing my role with a TRB focus, or I could step down officially and just keep doing TRB stuffs without the fancy title.
mod6: (I bring this all up now, as I want to announce that hanbot and nicoleci are now helping out with the outreach and phone number -- and if there are going to be possible new chair, or added chair, etc)
a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 16:30 mircea_popescu: ~then~, after that gets established, one can step down, add another, and so on. like a steps process, with continuity and everything.
BingoBoingo: Also December 7, 8, and 9th will be the expocannabis Uruguay. I plan on going there in a recon capacity, if anyone else is looking for a very Uruguay reason to visit Uruguay, that would be the weekend to come on down.
BingoBoingo trying to find explanations other than hunger and misplaced optimism for why borosilicate and genetics sell cheaper here than they do in the US
BingoBoingo: Maybe there's a suitcase courier network I missed out on in spite of more than half a year in a hostel
BingoBoingo: Enthusiastic impact tests by store proprietors support borated
BingoBoingo: And though glass can be done anywhere, like most things it requires skill and discipline which forces China as a source
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> ( and who's to say that borated. can entirely be ordinary. ) << To be clear doping glass is borosilicate because dopers are clumsy when doped. Because dabbing is apparently a thing now titanium means titanium when it comes to dope tools that get heated. Otherwise metal not specified means Zamac, and Aluminum usually means Zamac, because that's what the first A in Zamac is for
BingoBoingo: They got trusted with the job of converying product to the local neighborhood dope warehouse forts
BingoBoingo: Kinda curious what the police mean by a kilo of hashish considering that's a substance which has gone through some reddit "we R innovators" stuff in the past five years
BingoBoingo eagerly awaits family tree showing common ancestor shared by Emperor Dom Pedro II and Bolsonaro
mircea_popescu: "ve con buenos ojos" ?! whgat the fuck nonsense is this