Mocky: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855218 >> players in sight of each other, all getting position updates for all others is *THE* central scaling 'n squared problem' for mmo. 20 byte position sent 4 times per second to 100 players is 8k/s per player. and 4 updates per second is really not enough for good playability when you factor in the round trip lag. 15/s is less draconian (many games send 30-60). 100 players gathered with 15 updates
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 01:14 mircea_popescu: but anyway, imo if mmorpg needs > kb/s connectivity something's misdesigned somewhere.
Mocky: per second is 30k/s per player.
Mocky: there are clever ways to reduce, somewhat. but no silver bullet
Mocky: and this doesn't count pets / hirelings / mobile npc's
mircea_popescu: there is that.
mircea_popescu: however, the position is not 20 byte. idea is for eulora to make do with ~6.
mircea_popescu: there's also no intention to reproduce the usual http://trilema.com/2016/the-eastern-rpg/ bs. there's not going to be a "central town" everyone HAS to go to because of the linear&automated questline.
diana_coman: also, note that eulora does not enforce "all players within sight get position update" because server does not push basically; it's up to clients to request what they want, when and if they want it
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 00:20 mod6: nice work diana_coman
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 00:39 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu, diana_coman : http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/udpism/usa_sender_udp_log.txt http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/udpism/uy_receiver_udp_log.txt << 1 full volley
diana_coman: asciilifeform's published test data seems to match what I got on my initial tests with 1 second delay; my current plan is to collect first at least 1 week worth of data and then to repeat the experiment with a. smaller delays b. several senders perhaps
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855188 << nitpick: >1500byte always fragged, cuz ethernet. but! apparently get sewn back together in time. at least at the currently tried rates, and with mix of sizes ( remains to be seen what receiver will do with a summed MB/s of frags from different people )
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 00:58 mircea_popescu: but yes -- the test can (and likely will) be tightened. for starters we just wanted to get a sort of "absolute path limits". and THESE do indeed turn out to be further out than originally thought -- 2kb packets make it np unfragged and in order 100% of the time, and even 20-60kb packets made it.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855180 << also forgot to answer -- it's a mips 'octeon' running freebsd off ssd , iirc described in several old thrds
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 00:54 mircea_popescu: just makew sure you put something in there to distinguish "my interface is shitdrops on the floor"
asciilifeform: !#s octeon
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855291 << lemme know if you'd like sumthing in particular tested with my path, diana_coman
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 06:24 diana_coman: asciilifeform's published test data seems to match what I got on my initial tests with 1 second delay; my current plan is to collect first at least 1 week worth of data and then to repeat the experiment with a. smaller delays b. several senders perhaps
asciilifeform: diana_coman: all of my testfires thus far ended up 'no loss, no reorder, as if on lan'
BingoBoingo: In other news, the morning news program "Buen Dia Uruguay" has a fat wrinkly bag on right now reading Tarot cards and making predictions for 2019
BingoBoingo: Apparently it is going to be a good year for pork and problematic year for snakes, of which I have yet to see any in this country
diana_coman: asciilifeform, what's the shortest delay you tried?
asciilifeform: diana_coman: 10ms
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 01:01 asciilifeform: here goes :
diana_coman: got it
asciilifeform: ohai mod6
mod6: how goes today?
mod6: not bad, for a Friday am.
asciilifeform: mod6: mostly mired in saecular liquishit
mod6: no fun
mats: BingoBoingo: 2019 is year of the pig
mats: chinese zodiac
mod6: mmm, i wanna throw some ribs in the smoker.
mod6: I'm about ready to start hunting too. It's getting close to that time of year.
asciilifeform: re : udpism : at the risk of rehashing some of the ancient gossipd thread, i'ma put a few notes re fragging :
asciilifeform: even if seems that 100% of 2/3-frag packets make it through in 'laboratory' conditions, still gotta remember that the frag reassembly buffer is the ~exact~ equivalent of the pre-trb 'block orphanage'
asciilifeform: i.e. it is fundamentally an 'allcomers-can-claim-some-ram' item
asciilifeform: which not only complicates ip stack ( for when we write one ) but opens up to ddosability ( frags are take-it-or-leave-it, they dun even carry the port # )
asciilifeform: i for one would rather have no frag reassembly at all if writing ip stack. not only b/c complexity but also this.
Mocky: I don't see the benefit of building in a reliance on an external UDP fragment reassembly mechanism when the algo is 'all or nothing'.
asciilifeform: Mocky: me neither, esp. given as it wins nuffin bandwidth-wise
asciilifeform: imho if you want large messages, oughta have own fragger/reasmer, not the ??? in linux/ciscolade
asciilifeform: the ip stack's frag/reasm is one of those things that 'worx until it doesnt'
Mocky: zackly. and when "doesn't" it magnifies packet loss %
asciilifeform: i'll observe that if you dispense with fraggism, ip stack becomes fairly easy to write ( i.e. if you support only unfragged udp and nuffin else )
asciilifeform: Mocky: my suspicion is that under ddos conditions, loss of frags will approach 100%
Mocky: old log threads appear to have mircea_popescu with hatred of UDP, which has meanwhile dissipated ?
asciilifeform: Mocky: i suspect that he's rtfm'd since
asciilifeform: Mocky: incidentally, it is possible to do what i suggested to him then, which is to change the protocol # in the ip header and be generic ip, rather than udp . but only once we have own ip stack.
asciilifeform: of course ddosers can send packets with your new protocol # , it doesn't make you bulletproof
asciilifeform: the only final solution to ddos is O(1) crapolade packet rejection. ( preferably in iron )
asciilifeform: fragola makes this impossible in principle, you gotta stow N frags to get any sense of whether the full packet is friend or foe
BingoBoingo: <Mocky> old log threads appear to have mircea_popescu with hatred of UDP, which has meanwhile dissipated ? << There was a period when reddit hadn't yet given up on marginalizing the Republic and DDoS's were pestilential.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: they're still pestilential
BingoBoingo: Sure, but less frequently aimed visibly at us
asciilifeform: this is a temporary peace.
BingoBoingo: Gone from cover of "loud redditards" pissing UDP at webservers to bloat blocker shitting turd boluses at trb nodes
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: whole reason ddos even exists as a concept is the short-sighted idjicy of arpa designers. i'd like to avoid repeating it.
BingoBoingo: Can't let it happen on short wave
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: very diff set of problems, there
asciilifeform: ( and really quite different thread... )
BingoBoingo: Woodpecker arrays, etc
asciilifeform: ( on sw , the sun ddoses you 24/7/365, as well as washington )
Mocky: asciilifeform, O(1) crapolade packet rejection is already available in software with your FFA lib, if RSA over non-frag UDP was built on top, no?
asciilifeform: Mocky: it will once i get one going with inline asm'd addition/shifts.
Mocky: it's not constant time without asm?
asciilifeform: oh it is
BingoBoingo: In other news Japanese robot seals (the ones for keeping the elderly company) have made it to Uruguay
asciilifeform: Mocky: in theory you already have rsa with Ch. 4 . but nowhere near line speed.
asciilifeform: Mocky: the constant in that O(1) unfortunately matters.
Mocky: Japanese robot seals ... wtf am i looking at right now, lol
asciilifeform: Mocky: in the past i attempted a fpga rsa also. sadly the 'ice40' would need to be about 250x bigger, for it to be bakeable
asciilifeform: ( as it is, ice40 won't even hold ~one~ 4096bit adder ! )
BingoBoingo: Mocky: I have the local news playing in the background. But they are talking about these guys. https://archive.is/RRHQ Mind the publication date and remember this country was Lego free until that awful movie came out.
asciilifeform: and i'ma never recommend to anyone the use of heathen 'rsa chips'. not even because they all, without exception, work with only 'toy' key lengths, but because srsly wtf.
mod6: can we get a squad of these seals to blockade runners for us:?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: homing pigeons might work...
BingoBoingo: The national rolling pigeon club is a few blocks away. Could see if those would work
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: the tricky bit , as i understand, with those, is that they only work in 1 dir
asciilifeform: and gotta be manually transported in the other
asciilifeform: i.e. you'd have to ship'em out of BingoBoingostan in boxes.
BingoBoingo: End then we'd have to strip down tcp over carrier pigeon to get UDP over carrier pigeon
asciilifeform: more practically, usb stix over pigeon.
asciilifeform: but i suspect not a winner, they do what, 500 km.
mod6: lol, that's a long way
BingoBoingo: 500km is Brasil, Buenos Aires, the Atlantic Ocean, and Paraguay
asciilifeform: mod6: if there were a place within 500km of BingoBoingo with sane customs regime, he'd be there already, neh.
mod6: im just sayin', overall, that's a suprisingly long way for a winged-rat.
mod6: regardless if it means our needs, in jest.
asciilifeform: not even necessarily in jest. i'm not averse to using absolutely anyffing, if it worx.
asciilifeform: and sits down in budget. ( nuke subs are prolly out, for the time being )
mod6: fair enough
mod6: We still need fiat, any takers?
asciilifeform: mod6: i'll do it if absolutely nobody else wants to , but stretched rather thin, so give it coupla days if you can
mod6: I've asked a number of times in both castles, and a few individuals direclty (whom previously said they'd be willing); no takers yet -- however, still waiting on some info back before we're on our own. Will let you know.
asciilifeform: mod6: i'm pinching pennies in case i gotta do an expedition in near term
asciilifeform: if BingoBoingo doesn't pull off the ransoming of the crate, it will have to happen asap
mod6: *nod* makes sense. Once I get all of the info back I need, I'll send around a board comm so we're all on the same page, and will list some possible options.
Mocky: re: ice40 x250 and other projects: If I get a toe hold in Qatar, they have a 'free zone' to entice foreign R&D and tech startups which permits a new company to have 100% foreign owners, 0% tax on profits, duty free import/export. But requires them to like you and what you're trying to do.
asciilifeform: Mocky: you're a likeable fella... get'em to like you
Mocky: they seem keen on most new tech, and particularly comms tech
mod6: cool, Mocky
BingoBoingo: Mocky: Uruguay has a similar "freezone" system, gotta read the fine print
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: iirc uy's cost mega-moolah
Mocky: yeah, gotta find some people to talk to there
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Uruguay's cost mega-moolah AND imports USG/EU pantsuitism absent on the other side of free-zone border wall
asciilifeform: right, but iirc it was some outrageous sum, that made mircea_popescu's torpedo look economical
Mocky: from appearances, qa version has similar "looks better to approvers if mega bucks will be invested" but also they are trying to 'silicon valley in Doha' so maybe some room at the 'bottom'
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> right, but iirc it was some outrageous sum, that made mircea_popescu's torpedo look economical << Closets from 3kiloUSD monthly
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/09/pantsuit-drones-failing-to-qualify-for-pantsuit-loan-forgiveness-program/ << Qntra - Pantsuit Drones Failing To Qualify For Pantsuit Loan Forgiveness Program
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: re the loans lulz -- i regularly wonder when they'll dispense with the pretense and finally herd the debtors into work gulag
asciilifeform: ( these already , not counting i suppose mircea_popescu's chix, cannot escape anywhere, the 'education' mutilated'em into permanent usaschwitz inmates )
asciilifeform: in other noose, BingoBoingo's crate seems to be moving
mod6: hey hey!
asciilifeform: ohai mircea_popescu !
mircea_popescu: hey there.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 15:13 asciilifeform: i for one would rather have no frag reassembly at all if writing ip stack. not only b/c complexity but also this.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 16:01 Mocky: old log threads appear to have mircea_popescu with hatred of UDP, which has meanwhile dissipated ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: he was prolly thinking of the http://btcbase.org/log/2015-07-30#1218223 threads
a111: Logged on 2015-07-30 15:33 mircea_popescu: but yes, it was practically shown that a) no actual protection from ddos exists, outside of the ostrich method discussed above and b) udp is the key to this state of affairs.
a111: Logged on 2015-07-30 15:22 mircea_popescu: atm, im blaming udp. and i would very much like to see it go away, right now.
asciilifeform: udp is in fact quite popular for ddos, and the fragging mechanism that drags folx into supporting stateful reassembly is the major enabler there
asciilifeform: ( sans fragging, it's entirely stateless, like bare ip )
asciilifeform: i grasp that sometimes cannot avoid stateful protocol, but the state belongs in the multi-opteron pc running the user proggy, not in the 32kB of misfortunate routers along the way
asciilifeform: one of the dozen foundational idjicies of the arpa people , was permitting 'allcomers' to clog up routing tables with state.
asciilifeform: it's what gives ddosism its teeth.
asciilifeform: to mathematize : if the validity of a received datum can depend not only on past , but on ~future~ data, you have a 'to allcomers' ram giveaway. precisely like the 'orphanages' etc
Mocky: mircea_popescu, 2015 thread including http://btcbase.org/log/2015-07-30#1218061 http://btcbase.org/log/2015-07-30#1218108 http://btcbase.org/log/2015-07-30#1218171
a111: Logged on 2015-07-30 14:41 mircea_popescu: udp is the problem atm.
a111: Logged on 2015-07-30 15:08 mircea_popescu: and the general point is udp does not belong.
a111: Logged on 2015-07-30 15:22 mircea_popescu: atm, im blaming udp. and i would very much like to see it go away, right now.
mircea_popescu: Mocky ah ah. this was all from pov of web though.
mircea_popescu: "worst thing for trying to maintain websites is that udp exists"
mircea_popescu: but, yes, alf has a point : meanwhile read up ~on tcp~. despaired.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855353 << actually the winning conjunction here is that a) rsa message size is capped and b) udp packets are capped at ~same size. this is rapidly becoming a case of 4096 bit keys and 2048 bit packets and sayonara.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 16:15 Mocky: asciilifeform, O(1) crapolade packet rejection is already available in software with your FFA lib, if RSA over non-frag UDP was built on top, no?
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in lulz, "* You are banned from this server- You have a host listed in the DroneBL. For more information," YEAR OLD listing in some obscure bs "database".
mircea_popescu: frenode's teh shit.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 16:26 asciilifeform: i.e. you'd have to ship'em out of BingoBoingostan in boxes.
Mocky: just need to breed strong pigeons that can carry 'return trip counterpart' plus payload
mircea_popescu: could stack these infinitely.
Mocky: BingoBoingo can get a new look: https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a5/cd/26/a5cd26499cb08068f1451decd0da257a.jpg
mod6: Ace Bingo
mircea_popescu: and in other lulz, managed to mount a "", which is now unmountable.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 16:56 Mocky: re: ice40 x250 and other projects: If I get a toe hold in Qatar, they have a 'free zone' to entice foreign R&D and tech startups which permits a new company to have 100% foreign owners, 0% tax on profits, duty free import/export. But requires them to like you and what you're trying to do.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855401 << fuck them. they have oddles of money they have no fucking clue what to do with. last fucking problem is taking money to qatar.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 17:00 Mocky: from appearances, qa version has similar "looks better to approvers if mega bucks will be invested" but also they are trying to 'silicon valley in Doha' so maybe some room at the 'bottom'
mircea_popescu: their problem is the population, consisting of a half black slaves, and the other half donkey fuckers, neither of which possessed of enough sense to come out of a paper bag if it rained scissors.
mircea_popescu: and for all the arabic pretense, i'd be somewhat surprised if there's one guy in the whole country whose harem can toe to toe with mine.
mircea_popescu: considering the fucktarded shah of brunei, even, had the most ridiculous problems with women vaguely reminiscent of us army grunt.
BingoBoingo: Mocky: It is a possibilitit. The street dogs here are more reliable than many of the bipeds.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ain't brunei 7000km east...
mircea_popescu: you mean geographically or culturally ?
asciilifeform: strictly former
asciilifeform: i think i get it tho
mircea_popescu: yeah, south china sea
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855437 << the headache is that a 4kb-key sig is ~4kb...
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 21:21 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855353 << actually the winning conjunction here is that a) rsa message size is capped and b) udp packets are capped at ~same size. this is rapidly becoming a case of 4096 bit keys and 2048 bit packets and sayonara.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no see, 4kb key, 4kb message consisting of 2kb plaintext and 2kb padding.
mircea_popescu: but yes, the bojum is that with rsa you're always throwing away half the bandwidth.
mircea_popescu: much like with bitcoin you're throwing away half the energy.
mircea_popescu: the most serene republic of halvsies.
BingoBoingo: Except when it comes to bipeds. Republic discards more than halvsies.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: even in naked (padless) rsa , sig is always of ~equal bitness to modulus
asciilifeform: i know of no pill against this
asciilifeform: ( and pretty sure we had the thread )
asciilifeform: ( or see diana_coman's rsa walkthrough, http://ossasepia.com/2018/02/15/eucrypt-chapter-10-oaep-with-keccak-a-la-tmsr/ )
asciilifeform: where 'result will *always* be a block of 4096 bits (512 octets). Each such resulting block can hold at most 1960 bits (245 octets) of the original message' etc
asciilifeform: possibly i misread http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855464 , but gotta point out that the padding is not somehow separable from the message prior to decrypt, it is 'in' that final 4096bit output of the modexp
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 22:21 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no see, 4kb key, 4kb message consisting of 2kb plaintext and 2kb padding.
asciilifeform: at any rate this is not particularly catastrophic , all you need is 512byte
asciilifeform: which in so far as i can tell, doesn't frag.
asciilifeform: ( hence why i put that 512 as the initial guess for Payload_Size )
asciilifeform: currently seems to me that nuffing below ~1400 actually frags on modern irons
asciilifeform: so you could potentially even get away with signed-x-inside-encrypted-y
mircea_popescu: maybe what we want to do here is actually get 11936 bit keys, and forever 1492 byte udp.
asciilifeform: heh if we had the giant fpga..
asciilifeform: 1492, 'sailed the oceans blue...'
asciilifeform: btw i'll add that if you use raw ip, you 'win' 8 'phree' bytes ( that normally eaten by udp header )
a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 23:56 asciilifeform discussed subj with asciilifeform's brother, who answered 'whaddayamean, what size packet, at $defunctgamesco we only ever used 1480, for decade, ideal'
asciilifeform: ( 20 eaten by ip hdr )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855439 << i found last night that ~nuffin from my old squirrelmail workhorse actually gets delivered any moar. prolly for this reason.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 21:31 mircea_popescu: meanwhile in lulz, "* You are banned from this server- You have a host listed in the DroneBL. For more information," YEAR OLD listing in some obscure bs "database".
asciilifeform: the jwzs destroyed emailism 100%.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the nonsense of keeping lists of enumerated badness that a) are obscure and b) are poorly maintained... srsly, random costa rican home ip ? these people live for what, 4 months in the same place ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: pretty sure their actual objective was simply to herd the remaining folx who can't entirely get away from emailism, into the google/microshit corrals
asciilifeform: ~0 to do with spam in the usual sense.
asciilifeform: i actually bothered to peek in the logs on that box, it gets confronted with ssl crapola handshakes from the receiver's end and evidently doesn't spit out the hitler-approved answer
mircea_popescu: i don't recall how long it's been, but i've been happy enough emailess
asciilifeform: ( i dun have a corps of janissaries to fetch letters from hitler containing the ssl magic of-the-day )
asciilifeform: well, knuth managed it
mircea_popescu: i am not that old.
asciilifeform: lesser mortals still stuck with occasional emailism
asciilifeform: ( e.g. to/from vendors )
asciilifeform: e.g. most recently, BingoBoingo's customs crapolade
BingoBoingo interacts with substantial emailisms navigating orc hoardes
asciilifeform: could be worse, i suppose they could all have been on aol...
asciilifeform: but email is rapidly converging to ~= aol
BingoBoingo: I dunno how many orcmade systems you interact with, but regression from AOL seems common
asciilifeform: y'mean ~to~ ?
BingoBoingo: No, I mean descent from. There is still lower than AOL.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: where's lower than aol, nao i'm curious
asciilifeform: ( funnily enuff, the local telecom monopoly where i get me fiberz bought what remained of aol. so finally the ancient nightmare is in a sense troo, asciilifeform is 'subscribed to aol' )
BingoBoingo: Well, the all time low of systems I interacted with is pre-Uruguay when I went to Southern Illinois University for my graduate philosophy stint. The independent university department had an interactive pdf web form everyone had to use to register for the sticker to keep their vehicles from getting kidnapped by University Parking.
BingoBoingo: 20,000 people including chosen urban youth, etc interacted with this system every year
BingoBoingo: To be clear this isn't a pdf merely filled out from the pdf reader. It is filled out and interacts(maybe interacted) with their backend system from pdf reader.
mod6: my eyes!
mod6: BingoBoingo: lulzy
mircea_popescu: http://summaries.logs.esthlos.com/#2018-09-22_1 << a denier of many plurious things lol
mod6: lol 'mod6 survives...'
mod6: how's it goin tonight mircea_popescu ?
asciilifeform: gotta admit i like esthlos's summary page
mod6: yeah, i do too
mod6: and i kinda like there is competition here
mod6: how goes asciilifeform ?
mod6 is testing the phexdigit fix regrind
mod6: and oiling weapons
asciilifeform: mod6: lol funnily enuff metoo
asciilifeform: bit of pest control work