mod6: I think you must have an iron stomach -- the ability to publish such specimens of humans and not barf outright.
mod6: (maybe you did, who am i to judge. lol)
mod6 nearly jumped into a bathtub with a toaster
mod6: And it was her legs that got me, I think.
mod6: this thing -just works-.
mod6: I literally can load the entire block chain in like 8-9 days.
mod6: -caneat is where it's at.
mod6: does anyone here hunt ducks?
mod6: I like this duck with his dubloons. may his wings carry him swift, and his feet paddle him apt.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> but plox not to hunt anyways, ty! << Excellent use of WoT. Ensuring particular duck lives.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-29 15:22 BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> but plox not to hunt anyways, ty! << Excellent use of WoT. Ensuring particular duck lives.
lobbesbot: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: the one useful thing here would be to get trb properly ground already.
mod6: asciilifeform: ah cool, thank for the post. I'll read/try it when I get a chance.
mod6: Probably sometime here past month-end.
mircea_popescu: "I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbi
mircea_popescu: d the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And in as much as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied
mircea_popescu: everything. I do not understand that because I do not want a negro woman for a slave I must necessarily want her for a wife. My understanding is that I can just let her alone."
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> the one useful thing here would be to get trb properly ground already. << I'm probably not going to do this until there is a vtron that supports keccak.
mod6: I want users to be able to get a vtron, as they do now, with v.pl, then build trb in very much the same way they are able to today.
trinque: eh this is no reason to completely halt trb progress meanwhile
mod6: Why would it be halted?
mod6: I've been working on it quite a bit.
trinque: I have patches myself which are sitting on the sideline waiting for the manifest, which I was under the impression you're working on
mod6: No, the manifest was published last week, trinque.
trinque: ah! great! sorry, I missed that
mod6: Well, there was some issue with the ML message going through, but it's up now.
mod6: I've even got another vpatch I'm about to submit too. Was testing it lastnight, in fact.
trinque: lovely, I'll have to dust off my wallet excision patch and submit too
trinque: ^ not intended for mainline, specific-use branch.
mod6: Anyway, TRB will live on as SHA512 hashes in vpatches until there is a very clean way to switch. For The Foundation, the switch needs to be very seemless for newbs.
trinque sees, was searching for whether not being able to download attachments from ML also slipped by him
trinque: lolnope, cannot download attachments.
trinque: I'm getting a cloudfront error!
mod6: trinque: are you having trouble with the ML?
mod6: that's weird. it was working better, or so I thought :/
mod6: I'm not sure where the mailman front end is hosted.
mod6: The archive part was moved to the foundation
mod6: (at least, I thought so)
mod6: asciilifeform: I dunno.
trinque: 161.0.121.248 << this appears to be the pizarro box, eh?
mod6: jurov: Can you give us an update on all of the above ^?
trinque: curling instead with the IP works fine over here
trinque: so appears on my end that yes, thing referenced by that domain is on aws
mod6: i seem to be able to curl that url above, np.
trinque: that will serve the item if it has it cached, or will otherwise request from the backend, which is apparently faulty
mircea_popescu: * About to connect() to therealbitcoin.org port 80 (#0)
a111: Logged on 2018-09-29 22:54 mod6: Anyway, TRB will live on as SHA512 hashes in vpatches until there is a very clean way to switch. For The Foundation, the switch needs to be very seemless for newbs.
mircea_popescu: seems to me the only kind of newb this is is a very old hand determined to sabotage the process. newbs will just take the state of the art.
mircea_popescu: now that we're done with alf's wrecking of the naming convention, gotta deal with mod6 's wrecking of the historical flow ? keccak isn't some fucking optional package on top of mainline usg-provided sha.
mircea_popescu: sha was never fucking mainline. it was an accidental ad-hoc-ism.
mircea_popescu: only existed there AT ALL because nobody cared what is there at some indistinct point in the past.
mod6: I'm not saying that we shouldn't move to keccak, just would ideally have a tool that supports it.
trinque: which incidentally is a great segue to hey esthlos, when am I getting such a thing with which to cuntoo?
trinque: would also take a phf item, if v.py is ready to roll with vtools
mod6: If you want this done asap, can work towards creating vpatches that have keccak.
mod6: And I don't think I'm try to wreck anything by being methodical.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 17:47 mircea_popescu: but anyway : NO NEW WORK ON SHA PLOX. USE KECCAK.
phf: (i'm not up to date with log) trinque: i can post a patched v.py that works with vtools, i have some free time sunday evening to prep it up
mircea_popescu: considering the rate of new work on trb approximates epsilon for the march-september interval, it seems to me entirely bullshit, this manufactured problem of "oh, we have no way to contribute because no working keccak".
mircea_popescu: for one thing -- make the fucking thing, and for the other thing -- last month "oh, we have no way to contribute because -- summer days".
mod6: I certainly wasn't held back by no keccak. Who said that?
mod6: Only thing I've been held back by is lack of time as I've been way overwhelemed by all of the Pizarro work.
mod6: It should get better now that BingoBoingo has taken over management duites.
mod6: Anyway, if someone wants to take over my role at the foundation, please let me know.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-27 00:27 mircea_popescu: does the thing have salespeople / funnel up yet ?
mircea_popescu: but as far as the foundation is concerned -- if all it does (ALL IT DOES!!!) is stand up to tell me "oh, we can't follow the keccak because reasons" ima put an end to it in short order.
mod6: I actually would have figured you'd want me to ensure a smooth transition with the correct tooling. Not jump into something before we're ready.
mircea_popescu: not even entirely sure what precisely we'd be missing if there was no foundation at all, right off.
mod6: Alright. If we disband it, what do we do with the coins?
mircea_popescu: exact same as so far, i reckon. winge and whinge and wring our wrists and worry about it.
mod6: I didn't mean to piss ya off with my comments above, Sir.
mod6: Maybe it is time to give someone else a turn at the helm of the Foundation, or move to not have a foundaiton at all.
mircea_popescu: nevermind the pissing off, that's not the issue. this foundation item, it got a nest egg from me, and some more donations from other people back in the day. it didn't manage to turn these into either a growing stream of more donations or a growing stream of activity.
mod6: This is true, I kicked in 10 BTC of my own, even.
mircea_popescu: it is exactly what it was in its first week, a nomina nuda, bare name, with no more life to it acquired meanwhile than what it starded with. a flying brick.
mircea_popescu: if i have to run a balance sheet putting the active on one side and passive=delayed-keccak-adoption on the other side, it's coming out in the red as it stands.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform only displays that if cloudflare decides to proxy it.
mircea_popescu: which w/e, i recall this was the case a while back, cheap instance or w/e.
trinque: you actually have to set up the dork CDN in front of it yourself though
mod6: Yeah, I thought the thing was fixed and the archives were moved, too. But may have been mistaken.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-29 23:32 mircea_popescu: considering the rate of new work on trb approximates epsilon for the march-september interval, it seems to me entirely bullshit, this manufactured problem of "oh, we have no way to contribute because no working keccak".
a111: Logged on 2018-09-29 23:32 phf: (i'm not up to date with log) trinque: i can post a patched v.py that works with vtools, i have some free time sunday evening to prep it up
mircea_popescu: besides, shit's gotta get a critical look now and again, can't be all happy roses permanently.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-29 23:40 mircea_popescu: nevermind the pissing off, that's not the issue. this foundation item, it got a nest egg from me, and some more donations from other people back in the day. it didn't manage to turn these into either a growing stream of more donations or a growing stream of activity.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-29 23:40 mircea_popescu: it is exactly what it was in its first week, a nomina nuda, bare name, with no more life to it acquired meanwhile than what it starded with. a flying brick.
mircea_popescu: i dunno that we've exaustively tried that angle, nor do i think we must drop everything and try etc. we're currently well invested, i'm not protesting it.
mircea_popescu: the issue however, is that if mod6 does all the work he does ~as mod6 ~ or as ~the chair of bitcoin foundation~ in the end makes little difference, it's still the exact same work.
mircea_popescu: maybe with some extra overhead he conceivably doesn'\t even need, in the latter case.
mircea_popescu: hey, whole republic is built out of trying out the civilised things various empires came up with. some fruit better than others.
mircea_popescu: it's not directly evident to me that foundation as it currently stands is factually more than a permanent drain on mod6 's worktime.
mircea_popescu: this question is confounded, because he does a lot of copyediting and general maintenance for all sorts of work that'd have to be done anyway,
mircea_popescu: in principle. but our values are very much in the vein of debirocratization, after all. somehow i fear it's more of a haskellism than anything.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6 : how much time approximately ~does~ it burn ? << I'm not even sure I can put a number on it exactly. I put a lot of time in. It's a huge responsibility.
mircea_popescu: i kinda have in the back of my mind this impression that poor shane's ended up stuck with a large number of loose ends to juggle.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: and wouldja rather be doing sumthing else ? << Yeah, I think four years is enough, I think someone else should take over.
mircea_popescu: mod6 is it a major source of unhappiness and anxiety in your life ?
mod6: Fresh ideas, new enthusiasm, etc.
mod6: mircea_popescu: not at all. I'm proud to do the work.
mircea_popescu: are you practically solo chair these days or do you hold meetings with ben_vulpes and so on ?
mod6: I used to collaborate much more with the man, but he's been afk for quite some time.
mod6: asciilifeform: Correct.
mircea_popescu: mod6 do you want to name someone to join into the chairdom ?
mod6: Overall, yes. I think we need to determine if the entire thing is worthwhile.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform iirc it was kinda chartered with carte blanche, "do whatever, just do". the way history flew it worked out as a sort of "holder of trb project" pretty much yes.
mod6: People contribute, and do things. It would be very nice to have more consistant help with testing and other things. It hasn't been too bad just doing it myself, but with Pizarro in the picture (esepcially when was acting manager), having to do it all was hard.
mircea_popescu: i mean, let's not get too anachronistic, most of the things that are "forever held true and known" today have been invented last wednesday ; at the time tbf was invented, none of the notions of collaboration meanwhile spawned out of v usage were even apprehended. not even a glimmer in the lords' eyes...
mod6: I think trinque would be a great candidate for Foundation Co-Chair. (As I've said before).
mircea_popescu: certainly it has that advantage, which no pantsuit item ever could point to, of being VERY conservativewly run and as a result decent roi through keeping denominator down.
trinque: as it stands the deedbot wallet project is a hand-cranked charity I run, really want to see that thing move towards paid subscription services before I take on something else.
trinque: folks are also going to expect cuntoo leadership out of me shortly.
trinque: yes, hot-wallet will be a subscription service
trinque: no, recall I move my arse to a printer and hand crank all !!withdraw currently
trinque: beyond hot-wallet-subscription, notions of trb-as-a-service sit, for in-WoT developers that want highly available programming interfaces to a trb fleet
trinque: first thing is to define what the foundation is. steward of patches/seals, ML, yes, what else?
trinque: would like ben_vulpes to chime in here too.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-30 00:24 asciilifeform: trinque: do you have a subscription model in the works ?
a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 19:24 mircea_popescu: trinque is this something you'd be interested in doing ? expand deedbot thusly, maybe charge chans a fee ?
a111: Logged on 2018-09-30 00:24 trinque: folks are also going to expect cuntoo leadership out of me shortly.
mircea_popescu: is there any objection to this, incidentally ? letting trinque be a sort of one man cuntoo foundation ?
a111: Logged on 2018-09-30 00:33 trinque: first thing is to define what the foundation is. steward of patches/seals, ML, yes, what else?
ben_vulpes: by and large i saw the responsibility to ensure that the reference bitcoin client source stayed available to the republic, although at the time i recall a more "to everyone" flavor in my own thinking.
ben_vulpes: for that reason, largely only spending cash on hosting services. recently also a few hardware nodes. it creates work for mod6 in the vein of the monthly reports. perhaps a nutty suggestion, but it could cleanly be wound down (the charter modified), and mod6 to continue the monthly reports on his blog.
ben_vulpes: this has the advantage of aligning tbf with how things actually work in the republic, as driven forward by the hands of those doing the work.
ben_vulpes: it also carves off an unsightly imho pantsuit wart upon the side of the republic, a "non-profit organization" with names and caftans etc.
ben_vulpes: (elsewhere, saws buzz, coats of poly are applied, a decade of life-dross triaged and arrangements made to ship the most-valued and useful posessions across the continent continue...)
trinque: yeh, this is why I prefer strapping myself to a business requirement for trb working well, rather than joining up on TBF
a111: Logged on 2018-09-29 23:29 trinque: which incidentally is a great segue to hey esthlos, when am I getting such a thing with which to cuntoo?
ben_vulpes: did what, as far as mod6 and i could tell, it needed to.
esthlos:
http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855058 << as to this, the initial release (this weekend) will use gnupatch. I tried to design the thing so that I can swap out the patcher for my own afterwords. eventually my own mcilroy should make its way in.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 17:49 asciilifeform: esthlos's thing calls to gnupatch ?! ugh
a111: Logged on 2018-09-30 01:01 ben_vulpes: by and large i saw the responsibility to ensure that the reference bitcoin client source stayed available to the republic, although at the time i recall a more "to everyone" flavor in my own thinking.
ben_vulpes: inner popscu suggests "what, as if its used by anyone outside the republic anyways? if joe blow wants a sane client (which republicans should be mentioning in their blogs etc), he can join the republic and ask for the vpatches." but perhaps i'm undercalibrated.
ben_vulpes: i do not advocate that tbf hide the sauce away, dun fear
ben_vulpes: mm, i didn't mean to suggest 'republic only' trb net. it is however a pretty sane client for the extant network, and perhaps there is value in gating access to such a gem from teh hoi polloi. what with trinque's impending hotwallet patches and his demonstration of their value with trb services, the gem will become only of more value.
ben_vulpes: so then what loss? if heathen has changed religion what are they doing out of church
ben_vulpes: is there some fetlife for nerds funnel under optimization?
a111: Logged on 2018-09-30 01:01 ben_vulpes: by and large i saw the responsibility to ensure that the reference bitcoin client source stayed available to the republic, although at the time i recall a more "to everyone" flavor in my own thinking.
mircea_popescu certainly was informed by a lot more "for everyone" pov five or ten years ago.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-30 01:04 ben_vulpes: it also carves off an unsightly imho pantsuit wart upon the side of the republic, a "non-profit organization" with names and caftans etc.
ben_vulpes: on the thread of
http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855797, upon meditation, tbf was willing to host kids' projects at various points. didn't, in the case of lobbes, because he didn't take funding. kids ever-declining cost next to tbfs kitty inclines me to continue considering these projects.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-30 01:03 ben_vulpes: for that reason, largely only spending cash on hosting services. recently also a few hardware nodes. it creates work for mod6 in the vein of the monthly reports. perhaps a nutty suggestion, but it could cleanly be wound down (the charter modified), and mod6 to continue the monthly reports on his blog.
mircea_popescu: i suppose in a sense it's very much a question come to fore, "wtf is foundation actually expected to do". i know for myself it very much is expected to not do anything like hinder keccak adoption, but this seems both a small and a remote point.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes the seed funding it provided for pizarro for instance seems a very legitimate approach, "if your project has merit you get a little bit from foundation, helps other people commit." this works well in pantsuitlands too, but i suspect because it;s sound objectively.
ben_vulpes: "ensure access to the mainline set of patches" was the best i ever came up with for an operating thesis.
ben_vulpes:
http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855843 << absolutely. however i see risk of a tendency to 'lender of last resort' misbehaviors if unchecked (by whom?! forum clearly. which you address in your point re not throwing out everything the pantsuits touch.)
a111: Logged on 2018-09-30 02:16 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes the seed funding it provided for pizarro for instance seems a very legitimate approach, "if your project has merit you get a little bit from foundation, helps other people commit." this works well in pantsuitlands too, but i suspect because it;s sound objectively.
ben_vulpes: pizarro seemed a) worthwhile endeavour b) could be let fail and the experiment run again c) had good odds of rescue mission succeeding for a time.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-30 01:40 asciilifeform:
http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855796 << to the extent ( and it is a ~substantial~ extent ) that a healthy btc net relies on ~widely~ available sane client, incl yes even for miners, to limit in any way the distribution of trb src is imho catastrophically stupid idea.
ben_vulpes: not surfacing every single person capable of operating a v for subsequent filtering of whether or not they are ready to convert also yields.
ben_vulpes: well obviously someone sees the value in it as at least a testbed, what cost to him of registering a key.
trinque: big difference ftr between "lender of last resort" and "startup incubator"
trinque: the latter again, tainted by pantsuit stink, yet businesses do get started.
trinque: one thing that looks interesting externally is tbh throwing first doing something to actively seek out non-knuckleheads (yo esthlos, what do you do for a living again?) and see if a quarter or two of float can get folks building things that put hard pressure on trb thriving.
trinque: rather than trying to think of ways to throw money directly at trb. it by itself dun want any, or anything.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-30 02:14 mircea_popescu: i suppose in a sense it's very much a question come to fore, "wtf is foundation actually expected to do". i know for myself it very much is expected to not do anything like hinder keccak adoption, but this seems both a small and a remote point.
trinque: as the chairs appear to have money, but not time, the investor role seems to fit best.
trinque: good investments oughta be able to drive new customers to pizarro for infrastructure.
trinque: only thing gonna free up l1 hands is wealthier l1
trinque: see what I said about seeding businesses
trinque: their time is short because they're all pulling salaries in shitland
trinque: no offense to anyone involved
trinque: pulling bread from shitland, salary or not. so am I
trinque: speculative proposal is to have tbf do same snapping up of their l2, see what happens.
trinque: this isn't me gunning for a seed round for myself.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-30 02:24 ben_vulpes: not surfacing every single person capable of operating a v for subsequent filtering of whether or not they are ready to convert also yields.
mircea_popescu: people using your software that are the usual sort of idiots... you ain't got anything going there.
mircea_popescu: i see the point of hind-front, though ideally not entirely as a time function.