#trilema | 2018-09-27

diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854882 -> got your .tar.gz but I could not find in it the .wot and .seals? at any rate, if I copied over the .wot and .seals dirs, it pressed perfectly fine with v here (9999 K version); ftr I ran also precisely the v.pl you have in there and it also worked!

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 01:34 asciilifeform: http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/v_noworky.tar.gz << the complete tarball with both variants, patches, seals, .wot, my attempt thus far.

diana_coman: re using vtools, I currently first check sig (so by hand, separate 1-line) and if ok, then feed patch to vtools

diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854921 -> oh hey, looking forward to it!

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 02:27 esthlos: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854912 << I plan to integrate Keccak into the thing this weekend. At that point it should be fully operational.

diana_coman: http://barksinthewind.com/2018/vtools-keccak-regrind/ -> gotta ask here, phf, am I missing something or what Wednesday was that there in the first line meant to be?

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854924 << quite.

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 02:28 trinque: obviously I want such a vtron for the cuntoo final cut, or what's the use of the build process producing a vpatch

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform phf's thing presses fine, since at least june ( http://thewhet.net/2018/06/mp-wp-genesis-regrind/ )

mircea_popescu: did you follow diana_coman 's http://barksinthewind.com/2018/vtools-keccak-regrind/#comment-27 ?

diana_coman: adding to the above: old v can still be used to check the sigs, to avoid manual check; so use old v to check the sigs and once satisfied, just feed patches to vpatch

diana_coman: since I need to get the work done on this, I reground the UDP lib and I'll proceed from there; asciilifeform, phf and anyone else interested, keccak-patches are on my Code Shelf as usual: http://ossasepia.com/reference-code-shelf/#selection-477.0-477.19

diana_coman: I'll add the patches for the tester on top of the above, later today

asciilifeform eats log

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854880 , http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854913 << interestingly, this worked, mod6 ! wtf is 99994 K one ? where did i even get it ? ( i take it , was buggy release ? )

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 01:33 mod6: http://thebitcoin.foundation/v/V-20180222.tar.gz << >> http://thebitcoin.foundation/v/V-20180222.tar.gz.mod6.sig

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 02:06 mod6: asciilifeform: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/EItV0/?raw=true

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854926 << confirmed ( and somehow nobody last night noticed ? ) apparently tar by default refuses to tar up 'hidden' ( i.e. starts with . ) dirs !

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 09:31 diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854882 -> got your .tar.gz but I could not find in it the .wot and .seals? at any rate, if I copied over the .wot and .seals dirs, it pressed perfectly fine with v here (9999 K version); ftr I ran also precisely the v.pl you have in there and it also worked!

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854926 << ~this~ is pretty strange; diana_coman wouldja mind sharing your working set there ?

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854935 << i did, phf reminded earlier

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 09:41 mircea_popescu: did you follow diana_coman 's http://barksinthewind.com/2018/vtools-keccak-regrind/#comment-27 ?

asciilifeform: aaaand built

asciilifeform: and apparently this is not a full vtron, but only replaces 'diff' and 'patch' ....

asciilifeform: diana_coman: do you normally use this with a hand-patched mod6 vtron ? or how ?

asciilifeform: call me an idjit, but i thought there were a new vtron...

asciilifeform: aaand it loox like diana_coman already did my chore for me... i'ma do the elementary test on it nao, and sign/mirror.

asciilifeform: ty diana_coman .

asciilifeform: and loox like diana_coman even added comments.

diana_coman: asciilifeform, np; re vtron yes, currently it is only vdiff and vpatch functionality; I use old v to see the flow (since it checks the seals but doesn't care about the hashes until press time) and then the vpatch to actually press; looking forward to esthlos' vtron

diana_coman: I added the manifest + comments in it; otherwise *all* code is precisely what I got from pressing your patches

asciilifeform: confirmed

asciilifeform: about to post

asciilifeform: diana_coman: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2557 updated, with mirror and seals (yours, mine)

diana_coman: asciilifeform, ok, I'll mirror your sigs too and link to the page anyway; a bit later today

asciilifeform: danke schon, diana_coman . feel free to rename the filez.

diana_coman: I'll have to, since the sigs need to fit the .vpatch file name, yes

asciilifeform: aha

diana_coman: fwiw I *did* specifically state in the manifest that it's using Keccak hashes

asciilifeform: right

asciilifeform read whole thing

asciilifeform: diana_coman: is there a version of mod6's vtron that uses the new vdiff / vpatch ? or what do you use in erryday work ?

diana_coman: asciilifeform, not that I know of; I use: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854956

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 13:50 diana_coman: asciilifeform, np; re vtron yes, currently it is only vdiff and vpatch functionality; I use old v to see the flow (since it checks the seals but doesn't care about the hashes until press time) and then the vpatch to actually press; looking forward to esthlos' vtron

asciilifeform: ugh suspected

asciilifeform: so as i understand nobody has a 100% complete newtype vtron quite yet

asciilifeform: this is what i thought, and why i did not hurry to start the regrindings earlier

asciilifeform: i'ma try esthlos's item as soon as it is rolled out.

diana_coman: I kept waiting on phf and esthlos since they were working on it as far as I could tell; and http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854921

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 02:27 esthlos: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854912 << I plan to integrate Keccak into the thing this weekend. At that point it should be fully operational.

asciilifeform: got it

asciilifeform: if phf's item came with a standalone keccak hasher , would then be quite simple to retool e.g. mod6's vtron, to follow the new format. but as it is loox like i'ma have to wait for esthlos , to get full working replacement for old vtrons

asciilifeform: ( given http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-26#1854819 + http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-26#1854820 , i'd really like to have a 100% working item prior to entirely retiring the old )

a111: Logged on 2018-09-26 22:00 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: prolly like most folx who actually work on proggies, asciilifeform has '9000' vtrees on various disk, on various boxen, that are in classical format, and many not even intended for publication, the ones that see daylight naturally will become newtype

a111: Logged on 2018-09-26 22:01 asciilifeform: unlike some folx (as late as '16 some confessed to git ) asciilifeform does not use heathen versiontrons internally, strictly 100% v from aug '15

asciilifeform bbl : teatime.

mod6: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854940 << The changes and reasons for, are discribed here: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-February/000290.html

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 13:26 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854880 , http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854913 << interestingly, this worked, mod6 ! wtf is 99994 K one ? where did i even get it ? ( i take it , was buggy release ? )

asciilifeform: mod6: that there's '99993 K' . but what was '99994 K' ??

asciilifeform: mod6: the latter was the one i turned out to have on my box last night

asciilifeform: oh ha i see what i did.

asciilifeform: ( fughot that they decrement ! )

asciilifeform: mod6: puzzler -- solved, asciilifeform -- thick.

phf: asciilifeform: this has been extensively discussed in the logs. there was never a need for "new style v". v works just fine. one of the design goals of vtools was to nail down (and improve upon) the patch format. vtools are explicitly designed to be used with an existing v (for example i use it with v.py). vdiff produces wellformed vpatches and vpatch presses them ensuring that the format is valid and that the hashes stand. there's no

phf: need for the separate keccak hashing tool, because vpatch ensures that the result is valid.

lobbesbot: phf: Sent 14 hours and 10 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> are http://barksinthewind.com/2018/vtools-keccak-regrind/ old-style or new-style vpatches ?? my vtron won't press'em, and there is no way to distinguish , nor anything in the post to indicate, unless i'm thick

lobbesbot: phf: Sent 14 hours and 6 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> nm, distinguished by hand... but my vtron doesn't verify the sigs (not immediately sure why) and mod6's -- sees only Leaf: vtools_vpatch_newline.vpatch (phf)

phf: asciilifeform: but if you want a full "v replacement and i don't want to think about none of that" then just use esthlos's item. i believe he has a working keccak already

asciilifeform: phf: try an' see from my pov : i get a 'goddamn stop using old v' , go an' uncrate the replacement, and turns out it ain't a plug-in replacement but a set of pieces and a roll of duct tape

asciilifeform: and yes it is the picture i got from log. the gap in my head is where diana_coman switched to the new format; i then assumed there is a 100%-complete new vtron, and that 'hmm simply missed this, is in log somewhere' , turns out nope, notyet

asciilifeform: apparently diana_coman has been hand-cranking it, sorta like asciilifeform's 1st yr of trb pre-vtron

asciilifeform: ( recall, i introduced the patches thing considerably prior to ~vtronic~ patches )

asciilifeform: possibly this is not 100% fair picture , http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854956 is only half-handcranked, but still, semi-automatic

asciilifeform: phf: this is not a criticism of the format. but turns out asciilifeform has been looking for a 'i missed it in logz?' piece that doesn't exist quite yet ( hopefully will in 3 days... )

asciilifeform: once it ~does~ exist, and fully displaces the duct tape, then yes i'ma start regrinding other things , and i expect then mod6 -- trb, etc

asciilifeform: afaik nobody's used esthlos's item in battlefield yet, it'll need good bit of test.

asciilifeform: i'd also like to see a continuing existence of multiple working vtrons, so eventually would like to rework mod6's to use newtype format ( unless mod6 would prefer to do it himself )

phf: asciilifeform: you're just spreading fud, i don't know where to start unpacking this conversation

asciilifeform: my ancient v100 , could also be reworked, but i'd like to put it to rest ( for one thing, it dun check hashes at all )

asciilifeform: phf: there is not currently a complete replacement for mod6 v.pl ! fact !

asciilifeform: where is the 'fud' ??

phf: asciilifeform: vtools is not a replacement for v.pl!

asciilifeform: dun seem like we disagree then ?

phf: ugh

asciilifeform: this thread is not meant to insult phf et al , but i open box where i thought was hammer, but there is only a hammer head

asciilifeform: now i'ma need the shaft.

phf: asciilifeform: you already have the shaft, it's v.py

asciilifeform: phf: loox like. i'ma put the head on the shaft in next coupla days .

phf: when i started working on vtools there was already a handful of battle tested V implementations, that relied on vdiff.sh/gnu patch combination. vtools is a "drop in" replacement for the later. you get valid vpatch on the input, valid press on the output. the purpose is to nail down the format, and gradually replace out its parts (e.g. transparent sha->keccak transition)

mod6: I had started on a ada vtron last year, but I got hung up with some of the string handling, and the fact that I had to use shell-outs for pgp. I'd like to get back to it at some point. I would love to dispense with the shell outs - and can probably do so, but not until 'peh' is finished.

asciilifeform: phf: makes sense. my frustration is from walking the logs for past 2 days and looking for who has the complete shaft+head hammer, and not finding

mod6: The string handling, discussed previously in the logs, is basically a solved problem - would just need something similar to what alf or others have done before - character by character.

asciilifeform: mod6: for nao i'll be entirely satisfied with the variant phf describes.

mod6: Anyway, lack of time is a problem here too.

mod6: asciilifeform: ok cool.

phf: i think v.pl is a venerable tool, it's battle tested, it has established interface, it's been worked on for three years now. i don't see any reason to throw it out.

asciilifeform: phf: right . what i was looking for is variant of same that calls out to keccak instead of sha512 ( mod6's latest vtron actually checks hashes ) . but apparently still needs baking.

phf: i guess it's presumptuous on my part to think that it's exactly obvious how to take vtools and plug it directly into an existing v's, but that's all that's needed

asciilifeform: phf: i don't dispute that it is obvious, but thought it had been done, this was my mistake.

phf: asciilifeform: ah

phf: asciilifeform: well, you're one of the v maintainers, i'd think you would want to do it to your own tool.

asciilifeform: phf: my orig vtron has been sad and unmaintained, and afaik unused by anybody by me, for long time

asciilifeform: phf: but yes i'ma revive it.

phf: re standalone keccak hasher: i'm not sure that it's needed, i think the relevant phase can just be dispensed with altogether. `vpatch' verifies the hashes as it goes along

asciilifeform: phf: ah huh

asciilifeform: then not direly needed. though i'd still like to be able to post keccak hash in the log next time we're doing a thread with fw images or the like.

phf: you can basically do (cat foo.vpatch bar.vpatch qux.vpatch) | vpatch and expect the resulting press to be fully valid, hashes and all

asciilifeform: ( i.e. i'd like to dispense with sha512sum util entirely , aside from existing ancient items which have sha512 hashes in the l0gz from years ago )

asciilifeform: phf: makes sense.

phf brb

asciilifeform satisfied with the explanation

asciilifeform: btw phf , if you're willing to post your modified v.py ( i.e. http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854990 ) i'ma sign

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 15:33 phf: asciilifeform: this has been extensively discussed in the logs. there was never a need for "new style v". v works just fine. one of the design goals of vtools was to nail down (and improve upon) the patch format. vtools are explicitly designed to be used with an existing v (for example i use it with v.py). vdiff produces wellformed vpatches and vpatch presses them ensuring that the format is valid and that the hashes stand. there's no

asciilifeform: imho the situation where 'errybody made own hack' but no one posted 'because obvious' is a barbarism, really ought to have a civilized 'here is the whole thing' sitting on www somewhere.

trinque: phf: did the problem which caused folks to have to delete one branch of your vpatch tree to press the other get fixed in v.pl?

trinque: oh, modified. /me sips moar coffee

trinque: trinquebrain clearly not handling the swaps between v.pl and v.py in thread just yet

asciilifeform: trinque: which vtron are you thinking of including in cuntoo beta ?

trinque: v-esthos if it's finished, and works, though I'm willing to hear counterarguments

trinque: afaik it's the most didactic of the items

asciilifeform: makes sense

trinque: however it'll need a vdiff too, so was going to pull in also phf's work

asciilifeform: prolly will also makes sense to standardize the calling for it eventually ( and i'ma rework mine to fit, etc )

asciilifeform: ( right now there's a linux-like situation where errybody has own flags etc )

phf: trinque: it hasn't been, and i'm doing omission by not mentioning that vtools had a later mandate for graph resolution. meanwhile esthlos v was supposed to supposed to fix the issue, i suspect that different v's will eventually catch up.

phf: trinque: vtools has not been design or intended to compete with any particular v implementation. it's a set of tools that you can use in a v workflow (hence the name). at least initially it was two matching tools vdiff and vpatch that know how to produce and consume a canonical vpatch. the conflation came up, because i also published vtools in a form that broke existing canonical v, v.pl, and was tasked with fixing the situation.

asciilifeform: phf: i finally sat down and properly read the thing, and i think i finally grasp.

phf: re esthlos's work i think it's a shame that he chose to reimplement own keccak, but is still calling out to gnu patch. he could just focus on graph resolution/signature/wot checking, and offload the validation on vpatch: construct the press list, feed the patches in-order to vpatch, if vpatch succeeds then you know _for certain_ that the sequence of patches is valid, hashes and all

mod6: yeah, this is the right approach imho. it's what i'd do with my ada-vtron, if it ever does breathe.

trinque: phf: in principle I'm entirely in favor of the "unix philosophy" approach of simple, single-purpose tools

asciilifeform: esthlos's thing calls to gnupatch ?! ugh

asciilifeform: i did not yet know this.

asciilifeform: phf: imho your approach , i.e. dispensing with gnupatch, is The Right Thing, historically there was quite a bit of grief from gnupatch's habit of eagerly attempting to apply an invalid (by vtronic lights) but 'partially ok' by barbarian lights patch

trinque: the "hunk succeeded at offset $hurrr" thing is abominable

trinque: tonail-eater tier mental rigor.

asciilifeform: trinque: recall when i thought that this nonsense could be disabled by flags, hah

phf: right vpatch applies 'diff -ruN' style patches exactly. it also keeps track of both the hash of the patched file and the hash of the result state as it's reading/patching (there's no double read happening), and errors out if either fails to match the hashes in the header

asciilifeform: phf: exactly right algo

phf: asciilifeform: i have a ksum PoC for you, http://btcbase.org/patches/vtools_ksum signed but it's from workbench, potentially buggy. "ksum foo bar qux" gives you shasum style <hash> foo\n<hash> bar\n<hash> qux\n

asciilifeform: oh neato

asciilifeform: i'ma test.

deedbot: http://bimbo.club/?p=31 << Bimbo.Club - TMSR Log Summary - 9/22/2018

BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I have returned from the envirorast office, about to fire off a message to DHL informing them to try again as I am a provisionally acredited importer of packaged goods for commercial use

mod6: *thumbsup*

BingoBoingo: Now for everything else on the docket

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854937 << that was fast!

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 12:47 diana_coman: since I need to get the work done on this, I reground the UDP lib and I'll proceed from there; asciilifeform, phf and anyone else interested, keccak-patches are on my Code Shelf as usual: http://ossasepia.com/reference-code-shelf/#selection-477.0-477.19

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854952 << what you apparently did was completely ignore the matter for five months, then discover like children that you actually need tools at the time you started on the task (late at night etc) and so forth.

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 13:35 asciilifeform: call me an idjit, but i thought there were a new vtron...

mircea_popescu: keep your tools in state of good repair, you won't have to start fixing fence by fixing hammer and nails.

mircea_popescu: in any case shit in the logs ain't gonna to "just go away", this isn't linuslands. ignoring it is like ignoring hot coals.

deedbot: http://trilema.com/2018/fetlife-the-next-derperation/ << Trilema - Fetlife -- The Next Derperation

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854988 << we came up with this clever thing sometime in 2015 or so iirc. not sure what is gained by doing 99995 --> 99994 etc in light of experience, but i clearly recall how cool it looked at the time.

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 15:12 asciilifeform: ( fughot that they decrement ! )

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855080 << i stole the notion , in slightly modified form, from knuth. the logic is, decrementing versions, with finite initial N, support a http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851362 flow , where 'if you fucked it N+1 times , nao forced to call proggy something else' -- specifically in opposition to the heathen plague of runaway ver nums (e.g. linux kernel, emacs, firefox, etc)

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 20:00 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854988 << we came up with this clever thing sometime in 2015 or so iirc. not sure what is gained by doing 99995 --> 99994 etc in light of experience, but i clearly recall how cool it looked at the time.

a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 18:22 asciilifeform: this is the other thing, 'changes are expensive' promote imho a sane view of software, where you actually try to perma-stabilize yer proggy, rather than to keep up the classic 'open sores' eternal cauldron of bubbling liquishit

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855075 << yea if i'd smoke-tested it earlier, would have found. on top of this, naively assumed that diana_coman has a working and complete keccaktronic v , given as she's moved smg to newform

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 19:52 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854952 << what you apparently did was completely ignore the matter for five months, then discover like children that you actually need tools at the time you started on the task (late at night etc) and so forth.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855070 << neato BingoBoingo . plz lemme know asap if you need anyffing from my end

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 19:17 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I have returned from the envirorast office, about to fire off a message to DHL informing them to try again as I am a provisionally acredited importer of packaged goods for commercial use

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855078 << trickier item. recall 'the song of the sirens, some have escaped, but their silence -- no one' . how to deal with 'but ~was~ it in the l0gz'.

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 19:52 mircea_popescu: in any case shit in the logs ain't gonna to "just go away", this isn't linuslands. ignoring it is like ignoring hot coals.

asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform plowed through the phf-vtronics thread when came back from voyage, and then second time when diana_coman requested keccak regrind, and both times failed to converge to correct answ re 'is there complete keccak vtron' )

asciilifeform: elsewhere, else, http://trilema.com/2018/fetlife-the-next-derperation/#comment-126772

deedbot: http://ossasepia.com/2018/09/27/tester-for-udp-communications/ << Ossasepia - Tester for UDP Communications

asciilifeform: oh hey.

diana_coman: asciilifeform, ^ there is also a small .vpatch for that issue with null chars at ip

asciilifeform: neato!

diana_coman: the rest then are for the tester only - let me know if you give it a spin and how it behaves

asciilifeform: diana_coman: i'ma test & mirror that one when i get a chance

asciilifeform: will do.

diana_coman: but otherwise the udp_tester.vpatch makes some changes to udp lib that are really just for testing (i.e. I think they should not be part of production use of udp lib)

asciilifeform: yea i can't picture for what might need variable masses in production

asciilifeform: so makes sense

diana_coman: it's the move to generic + relaxation of some constraints (because of generic and because of using Calendar for local time to log)

deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/09/power-rangers-inserted-inflation-bug-into-core-bitcoin-network-client-in-2016/ << Qntra - Power Rangers Inserted Inflation Bug Into "Core" Bitcoin Network Client in 2016

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, i understand the principle, just... nothing, not even mozilla went through 10k versions to date.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: yea, 10k is imho much. but e.g. asciilifeform gave himself 100 in orig v

mircea_popescu: more's the point : HOW do we establush "100is much, 10k is enough, etc"

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855089 << i have no fucking idea how. i read the logs daily atm, mostly impelled by... outright fear. the best heuristic i know of, but otherwise this promises to be a first caliber bane as time goes by.

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 20:21 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855078 << trickier item. recall 'the song of the sirens, some have escaped, but their silence -- no one' . how to deal with 'but ~was~ it in the l0gz'.

mircea_popescu: !!rate bluematt -10 finally comes home to roost

deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/O1xwh/?raw=true

mircea_popescu: ^the end of the last holdout of historical derps

mircea_popescu: and /me shall bbl

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855104 >> bahahaha, and the disinfo machine already spinning at full speed, e.g. 'Everything older than 0.16.3 (and the corresponding 0.14 and 0.15 fix releases) is vulnerable to one exploit or another' etc

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 20:45 deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/09/power-rangers-inserted-inflation-bug-into-core-bitcoin-network-client-in-2016/ << Qntra - Power Rangers Inserted Inflation Bug Into "Core" Bitcoin Network Client in 2016

asciilifeform: ( pretty thinly disguised attempt to get the dumber miners to 'upgrade' )

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855107 << the proggy author's duty, and nobody can save him from it. fwiw i go roughly by size/complexity of orig draft.

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 20:58 mircea_popescu: more's the point : HOW do we establush "100is much, 10k is enough, etc"

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855108 << i read'em when waking, when going to sleep, and in between have scrolling in real time within peripheral vision. but evidently even this not guaranteed to suffice..

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 21:02 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855089 << i have no fucking idea how. i read the logs daily atm, mostly impelled by... outright fear. the best heuristic i know of, but otherwise this promises to be a first caliber bane as time goes by.

deedbot: http://bingology.net/2018/09/27/peso-watch-september-2018-edition-with-bonus-uru-gay/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog - Peso Watch September 2018 Edition With Bonus URU-Gay

BingoBoingo: For the longs: Peso Argentino went from 0.85/1.45 to 0.55/1.25 in one month.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: built & emplaced your sender-receiver, it is running nao, asciilifeformistan <--> BingoBoingostan

asciilifeform: will leave it overnight , then post log..

asciilifeform: interestingly, 1st coupla min seems to show ~0 loss

asciilifeform discussed subj with asciilifeform's brother, who answered 'whaddayamean, what size packet, at $defunctgamesco we only ever used 1480, for decade, ideal'

asciilifeform: admittedly this was in the paleolithic '90s

asciilifeform: i can see the logic, ethernet frame is 1500 , ip header -- 20 byte

asciilifeform: tho as i understand it, they did not account for the 8 byte udp header size, and thereby still fragged.

asciilifeform: going by the current empirical test, however, a packet that frags into 2 or even 3, typically goes. tho it remains to be seen whether they start falling down once you saturate.

asciilifeform: diana_coman's test jig ( i did not modify it except for the dest ip ) currently fires 1 / sec.

mod6: evenin'

mod6 looks

mod6: nice work diana_coman

asciilifeform: oh hm it stops after a while

mod6: stopped or died?

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's deliberate, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1854306

a111: Logged on 2018-09-25 15:58 mircea_popescu: add a 1s delay between packets.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854994 << just about, yes. and yeah, the summary's correct.

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 15:36 phf: asciilifeform: but if you want a full "v replacement and i don't want to think about none of that" then just use esthlos's item. i believe he has a working keccak already

asciilifeform: 'Note that the sender will send each size of package *only once* and it will simply finish once it sent one package of each size' << aaah

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855005 << certainlt. it's already unpacked, as far as that can be done, at http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855075

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 15:50 phf: asciilifeform: you're just spreading fud, i don't know where to start unpacking this conversation

mircea_popescu: sadly there's no simple/just-add-water way out of "i've been ignoring this whole thing for x interval, wut nao". nao -- pick up from where you left off, what.

mircea_popescu: summaries only go so far, and besides, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-19#1851685

a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 15:56 asciilifeform: mod6: i dun like to discourage folx, esp. mircea_popescu's pupil, who is evidently pouring sweat into the job. but i expected the items would get better with time, and imho so far they haven't

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu, diana_coman : http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/udpism/usa_sender_udp_log.txt http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/udpism/uy_receiver_udp_log.txt << 1 full volley

mircea_popescu: but yes, the obnoxious part about the ignorant approach is that it purports to "identify as problems" the speciffic parts that are both well designed and functioning as designed, ie specifically the hash transition.

mircea_popescu: that alf manages to do this naturally and with i suspect no malice aforethought (or anything else aforethought at all) is in a sense supportive of the hopes of humanity -- apparently ignorance breeds the nonsense on its own, no "dark lizard" behind it all needed.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: seems like 100% passed...

asciilifeform: packets, i mean

mircea_popescu: anyway. what v did you end up with ?

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: just nao -- muscle-powered v a la diana_coman . this weekend would like to reword v.py to run on phf's components.

mircea_popescu: alright.

asciilifeform: and when esthlos releases, will try his.

mircea_popescu: you realise, i'm not going to go "here -- use THIS .emacs". not in this life.

mircea_popescu: yes there's nothing wrong with people publishing toolsets ; but this can't become a fucking expectations wth. craftsman -- has toolset.

asciilifeform: i dun recall asking for 'use THIS .emacs' lol

mircea_popescu: standardized tools -- for mcdo cashiers. actual craftsman, responsible for his toolset, which nobody inspects for him but himself.

asciilifeform: but ftr i released complete kit with orig v, not half thing.

mircea_popescu: as things grow, upgrades by parts become a matter of necessity.

mircea_popescu: restaurant served me complete pie, but body shop did only paint the preexisting car i supplied them with.

asciilifeform: btw mircea_popescu & diana_coman , not only 0 packet losses, but 0 reorders.

mircea_popescu: you're doing wash to uy and back ?

asciilifeform: i.e. : cat uy_receiver_udp_log.txt | cut -f 1 -d ',' > receiver_idx.txt ; cat usa_sender_udp_log.txt | cut -f 1 -d ',' > sender_idx.txt ; diff sender_idx.txt receiver_idx.txt << produces nil

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: so far only tried the -->

mircea_popescu: nb. let it run for a few weeks if you will, so we have nice datasets to work on

mircea_popescu: and bidirectional is good imo, i half expect to discover parity between lastmile->dc and dc->lastmile directions.

asciilifeform: ( potentially also could be interesting to make echo variant )

asciilifeform: i.e. ->, <-, ->, ...

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: no disagreement re upgrades of parts

mircea_popescu: so then. phf did a new ~vdiff~. and a very good one at that, from all i can see.

asciilifeform: worx a++

asciilifeform: upstack, re the udp experiment -- 1/sec is sorta 'cheating', no possibility of reorders

asciilifeform: ( afaik 1sec is way moar than long enuff for a packet to either make it, or vanish )

mircea_popescu: and diana_coman or hanbot or who will you pick have little problem in turning over next-day keccak patches on trees, as recently put on display. i don't think they're either smarter or blesseder than you, they just have the toolset ready.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform wanna run one with .1 s or 10ms ? that might be a good move.

asciilifeform: i'ma try with 10ms

mircea_popescu: just makew sure you put something in there to distinguish "my interface is shitdrops on the floor"

mircea_popescu: because we're not really into measuring shitty nat routers on cisco customer walls per se.

mircea_popescu: early proto-test indicated most of the lossage happens before 2nd hop

asciilifeform: how does one determine exactly which hop

asciilifeform: ( i dun have a tap in florida, lol )

mircea_popescu: in the worst case, capture the flow upstream and see if the box actually puts out the packets ?

mircea_popescu: though in general can have interface log outbound, say.

asciilifeform: thus far they all show up on my exit router, fwiw

mircea_popescu: but yes -- the test can (and likely will) be tightened. for starters we just wanted to get a sort of "absolute path limits". and THESE do indeed turn out to be further out than originally thought -- 2kb packets make it np unfragged and in order 100% of the time, and even 20-60kb packets made it.

mircea_popescu: (and when didn't made it -- local interface dropping was the likely culprit)

mircea_popescu: that whole "1 packet per burst makes it" was very much "well doh, 1 gets sent at all"

mircea_popescu: ie, the 508 value largely mythical at this point.

asciilifeform: about to post the 10ms variant ( 3 shots )..

asciilifeform: yea i suspect 508 is a textbookism

mircea_popescu: maybe was true. in 1994.

asciilifeform: here goes :

asciilifeform: 1) http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/udpism/usa_tx_10ms_run1.txt http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/udpism/uy_rcv_10ms_run1.txt

asciilifeform: 2) http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/udpism/usa_tx_10ms_run2.txt http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/udpism/uy_rcv_10ms_run2.txt

asciilifeform: 3) http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/udpism/usa_tx_10ms_run3.txt http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/udpism/uy_rcv_10ms_run3.txt

asciilifeform: ( still in 1 direction )

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i suspect wasn't even in '94

mircea_popescu: 100% huh. nice!

asciilifeform: apparently

mircea_popescu: apparently some parts of the internet DID get better over time.

asciilifeform: 0 reorderings too, loox like

asciilifeform: 10ms is still pretty relaxed pace tho.

mircea_popescu: truth be told, on the internet-as-we-thought-it-was, video on demand'd have been a miracle.

mod6: thats still 2 orders faster than the last test tho.

asciilifeform: video does get to skip frames & buffer etc

mircea_popescu: moreover, 1kb/s is one thing, 100kb/s ANOTHER thing.

asciilifeform: mod6: i seem to recall a much sadder london test but that was with very heavy packets iirc

mircea_popescu: i don't really want the traffic to go much over the kb/s range

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: then yer golden, loox like. at least if errybody has a path no worse than mine

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: keep in mind that traffic on receiver will be considerably moar than 1k/s

asciilifeform: ( even if erry client sends at 300 baud )

asciilifeform: will be interesting to try a shot with several people txing from different places. see if it triggers antiddos derpery somewhere.

mircea_popescu: will happen by itself anyways.

asciilifeform: in battlefield -- definitely

mircea_popescu: but anyway, imo if mmorpg needs > kb/s connectivity something's misdesigned somewhere.

mircea_popescu: not including here asset transfers ; merely the "bread and butter" so to speak.

asciilifeform: i've nfi why you'd want >1k/s per user, unless you were doing voices or somesuch exotica

mircea_popescu: even if you do voices, client should acquire the asset and cache it.

asciilifeform: i meant those mud folx who have microphones in the game

asciilifeform never saw the appeal

mircea_popescu: i don't see why they can't do this -- independently.

asciilifeform: i.e. with telephones ?

mircea_popescu: kinda weird for a restaurant to also attempt to provide phone service for the patrons. what, they can't carry phones inside ?

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform through whatever they like. it's their fucking friends, neh ? sometimes gaming i'll speak acrossd table / yell across room w/e. my fucking harem, my fucking business.

asciilifeform: i dun know the specific answer. but suspect it has to do with the sad audio mixer on most os. they wanna hear the game sounds + the chat.

mircea_popescu: ah, os mixing still undone, 25 years later, huh

asciilifeform: last i knew.

mircea_popescu: good thing linux has code of shithead.

asciilifeform: iirc this was even poettering's orig worming-in -- he claimed to fix mixing

asciilifeform: ( spoiler : didn't )

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855023 << moreover, i can't imagine who the fuck would make this call ~for others~. you don't like having it, by all means, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-26#1854751 ; but i am not going to say "do not use v.pl".

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 15:57 phf: i think v.pl is a venerable tool, it's battle tested, it has established interface, it's been worked on for three years now. i don't see any reason to throw it out.

a111: Logged on 2018-09-26 18:52 mircea_popescu: so delete them, then.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: phunphakt : mixer worked GREAT 20y ago. when hardware dsp in sound blaster.

asciilifeform: THEN stopped when 'winmodem' soundcards.

mircea_popescu: aha. i recall this also.

asciilifeform: ~iron~ mixers : work. 'soft' liquishit -- surprise, surprise -- doesn't

asciilifeform: esp on os with liquishit scheduler

mircea_popescu: or should i say alsa.

asciilifeform: any an' all of the 'soft' hacks

asciilifeform: they dunwork. cuz how would they.

mircea_popescu: myeah.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855025 << actually this is exactly >> http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854931 ; i saw it there then, i checked it off in my head and did not return, that or any other wednesday, to check. turns out, it got dropped. don't do that!

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 15:58 phf: i guess it's presumptuous on my part to think that it's exactly obvious how to take vtools and plug it directly into an existing v's, but that's all that's needed

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 09:34 diana_coman: http://barksinthewind.com/2018/vtools-keccak-regrind/ -> gotta ask here, phf, am I missing something or what Wednesday was that there in the first line meant to be?

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855034 << indeed!

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 16:02 phf: you can basically do (cat foo.vpatch bar.vpatch qux.vpatch) | vpatch and expect the resulting press to be fully valid, hashes and all

mircea_popescu: re stand-alone hasher : useful in general (for reason alf describes) even if not strictly needed for v work ; the only way to get one i know of atm is via eucrypt.

mircea_popescu: dunno how many people keep that around though. i don't think it'd be a crime or anything to make a command-line keccak branch off of it, so people can just press to that if they want.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: phf posted one earlier

mircea_popescu sitll goign through teh logs. apparently going out for a few hours IS UNSAFE

asciilifeform: lol

mircea_popescu: Die Kaisrin hat sich mit dem Franzosen alliiert und das Römische Reich gegen mich revoltiert. De Russen sind gefallen in Preußen ein, etc etc.

asciilifeform: ahahahayes

asciilifeform sings...

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855041 << this is so, "here's a complete model" is a periodic necessity. just you know, can't complain that "not there jit when i wanted it". but yes in general, ur examples must be had, fully functional model trains must exist, etc. otherwise how to even run academia.

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 16:08 asciilifeform: imho the situation where 'errybody made own hack' but no one posted 'because obvious' is a barbarism, really ought to have a civilized 'here is the whole thing' sitting on www somewhere.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lol recall how we even ended up with v, ' asciilifeform : 'it is obvious!11 how to arrange trb patches' errybodyelse : 'nah' )

mircea_popescu: indeed.

asciilifeform: ( recall, we had gpg-signed patches with 0 robotics for yr+ )

mircea_popescu: well... the republic is organically grown.

asciilifeform: indeed, 0 nitrates!1111

mircea_popescu: we don't do shit for any other reason than because "alternatives were reviewed, this came out".

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855053 << this is historical.

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 17:27 phf: trinque: vtools has not been design or intended to compete with any particular v implementation. it's a set of tools that you can use in a v workflow (hence the name). at least initially it was two matching tools vdiff and vpatch that know how to produce and consume a canonical vpatch. the conflation came up, because i also published vtools in a form that broke existing canonical v, v.pl, and was tasked with fixing the situation.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855058 << iirc he was getting rid of that.

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 17:49 asciilifeform: esthlos's thing calls to gnupatch ?! ugh

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: shouldn't take much sweat, anyffing that calls gnupatch could just as readily call phf's

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855060 << and yes. schmuck's principle of "tolerance", doth not belong here.

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 17:54 asciilifeform: phf: imho your approach , i.e. dispensing with gnupatch, is The Right Thing, historically there was quite a bit of grief from gnupatch's habit of eagerly attempting to apply an invalid (by vtronic lights) but 'partially ok' by barbarian lights patch

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it not only made for very picturesque output in old buggy vtrons, but pretty terrible for blood pressure, as turned out that the supposed 'disable fuzzy' flags dun actually do anyffin in gnupatch

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855070 << this guy. getting him out of the flophouse was the best move ever.