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asciilifeform: mircea_popescu ^
asciilifeform: and whoever else was awake for the broken original.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i actually saw ' Clarissa Explains It All ' .
asciilifeform: believe or not.
BingoBoingo: I haven't even seen that
mircea_popescu has been reading up on robert mccormick. interesting fellow.
asciilifeform: oooh yes.
asciilifeform: one of those duded on whose vintage compressed farts what's left of usa still runs.
mircea_popescu: well, not a great fan of roosevelt, at any rate. nor muchly loved by the "comedians" of his era.
asciilifeform: it is not clear that roosevelt was an avoidable pit.
mircea_popescu: well... who's to know. twit nearly avoided himself, if you recall that incident when escort subs nearly sunk his boat.
asciilifeform: also worth noting that , when he finally keeled over at his desk, the replacement was ~same.
mircea_popescu: this is like saying that the replacement cockroach was also a cockroach.
asciilifeform: noshit.
mircea_popescu: of fucking course, what'd you expect, flying pixie squirrels ?
asciilifeform: well, say, an ant.
asciilifeform: or weevil. or somebody.
mircea_popescu: well... truman vs roosevelt does fit a weevil vs cockroach sort of profile, to my eye
asciilifeform: if we must pediwikiate, more interesting is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VIC_cipher .
asciilifeform: 'The ultimate development along these lines was the VIC cipher, used in the 1950s by Reino Häyhänen. By this time, most Soviet agents were instead using one-time pads. However, despite the theoretical perfection of the one-time pad, in practice they were broken, while VIC was not.'
mircea_popescu: well no, at least that's an actual thing. as opposed to theoretical pieces badly written by idiots.
asciilifeform: vic was historical, and interesting, and the linked trestment is not wholly bad.
asciilifeform: *treatment
asciilifeform: part of a family of 'lost hand-cranked technologies'.
asciilifeform: i aim to salvage these. lamportron, for instance, is entirely suited to hand-cranked use in junglr conditions - 0 bignums...
adlai: asciilifeform: very cool little tool! but rereading the logs, i'm unclear what mircea_popescu means by "on the basis of rng" http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-27#1549184
a111: Logged on 2016-09-27 16:39 mircea_popescu: this doesn't matter so much, future cryptosystem will be made on the basis of rng ; rng can work with pubkey as entropy source.
adlai brushes up on his unix utils, trying to cram alf's lampochute into his head
mircea_popescu: adlai it's an assumption of the nature of "whatever engine may in the future be devised, 1) it will run on fuel, and 2) that fuel will be derivable from gasoline".
adlai: ok, but i still don't understand the rest of that line.
mircea_popescu: what is the output of rng ?
adlai: it should be ~unique each time you run the rng, but if your 'entropy' source is a piece of data (public key), doesn't your rng turn into a p-rng?
mircea_popescu: adlai what, not how.
adlai: bits?
mircea_popescu: it's a stream of bits. exactly. so is a key.
mircea_popescu: the quality of the fuel is not involved in the discussion of fuel. this sort of separation of concerns is what alf correctly points out constitutes all science.
mircea_popescu: (but yes, i did say pubkey where i should have said privkey for sanity. the problem is that in the scenario discussed there's no difference.)
mircea_popescu: !!up dharkmadder
deedbot: dharkmadder voiced for 30 minutes.
shinohai: !!up dharkmadder
deedbot: dharkmadder voiced for 30 minutes.
deedbot: 354F203FB6BDFCFCE74B54ADA0FB5A05C9774581 registered as dharkmadder.
asciilifeform: ^ further use cases for lamportron.
mircea_popescu: adlai for the record it's not exactly "security theatre". a large list of ingredients goes into what exactly makes me disdain X item ; that's definitely one of them.
mircea_popescu: what random idiots self report is entirely uninteresting, you know ?
shinohai: http://archive.is/J3KX6 <<< example of what random idiots reporting on may look like
shinohai: (warning, lot's of I couldn't break Bitcoin butthurt in there)
asciilifeform: 'He was concerned about the team’s communication skills and lack of maturity, which has compromised bitcoin’s ability to attract new protocol developers.' << lel
asciilifeform: either these folk never tire, or the rubbish is actually churned out by fresh crop of conscripts every quarter
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-29#1550160 << lulzily enough, the fact that it is physically impossible to generate a ~private~ privatekey from a public string... didn't stop usg from trying! see old thread, http://btcbase.org/log/2015-04-02#1084135
a111: Logged on 2016-09-29 13:25 mircea_popescu: (but yes, i did say pubkey where i should have said privkey for sanity. the problem is that in the scenario discussed there's no difference.)
a111: Logged on 2015-04-02 14:58 asciilifeform: 'Boneh, in joint work with Matt Franklin, constructed a novel pairing-based method for identity-based encryption (IBE), whereby a user's public identity, such as an email address, can function as the user's public key. Since then, Boneh's contributions, together with those of others, have shown the power and versatility of pairings, which are now used as a mainstream tool in cryptography. The transfer of pairings from theory t
asciilifeform: (in actuality, in 'identity-based' crypto, folks actually encipher to a pubkey that is produced by F(Pc, X) where Pc is the chump's email addr and X is a public key of the great inca; chump (email addr holder) can decipher with his Pk_c private key, and so can the inca.
asciilifeform: think 'pgp but with delegation to slaves'. usg is/was for some reason obsessed with such schemes.
asciilifeform: and holy FUCK, the sheer depth of retardation,
asciilifeform: 'So if it is claimed that the Guy Fawkes protocol is not really a signature, then the onus would be on the objector to show how to deal with the many other kinds of signature that use interaction, as well as the importance of context — the framework of certification and revocation services, legal conventions and so on — to the utility of digital signatures. In most applications, the value of signatures ultimately depends on conve
asciilifeform: ntion (such as a digital signature law, or a contract between members of an EDI system) and the validation of even conventional digital signatures involves reference to an online or at least near real-time certificate revocation list.'
asciilifeform: since when is 'the onus would be on the objector' ?!
asciilifeform: 'What is actually happening of course is that a middleperson attacking the integrity channel has to participate in it from the start; she cannot join in later' << mighty heavy limba de lemn ...
BingoBoingo: !!up ser
deedbot: ser voiced for 30 minutes.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-29: [14:48:10] <shinohai> (warning, lot's of I couldn't break Bitcoin butthurt in there)
mircea_popescu: Elliot Maras has reported on the payments industry and financial services for trade publications and websites for several years. He is based in Cleveland, Ohio. << for the shitlist.
mircea_popescu: derps are now reduced to mfa websites filled by ohioan fiverr copywriters ffs.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160929/#163 << it's really the ideal crypto surogate as far as usg is concerned. chumps can't see each other through the walls of the star pattern ; usg can see all.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-29: [14:55:26] <asciilifeform> (in actuality, in 'identity-based' crypto, folks actually encipher to a pubkey that is produced by F(Pc, X) where Pc is the chump's email addr and X is a public key of the great inca; chump (email addr holder) can decipher with his Pk_c private key, and so can the inca.
mircea_popescu: it's funny how on every single iteration, at every level, in every novel context and at each turn the socialist empire meets in the field the same very nude declaration of nature that "you may not exist, vermin". EVERY time.
mircea_popescu: never gives up, tries again, "revolution", "progress", it's the lulz of all time. to think all this running away, running in circles, chasing of tail etc is simply the devil trying to somehow, hopefully, beyond all hope escape the fact that there really isn't any room for it here.
mircea_popescu: like a strange sort of animated snowball in hell, sizzling like butter on the hot stove every which way.
mircea_popescu: (in this particular case, it's a case of "according to the empire worldview, the correct crypto would be based on creating privkeys out of public strings, with a dab of emperor's own pubes" "this may not exist ; here's the proof")
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160929/#167 << " If it performs as advertised it isn't snakeoil, even if its limitations makes it useless for your own usecase" i lolled.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-29: [15:14:05] <asciilifeform> and holy FUCK, the sheer depth of retardation,
asciilifeform: except that it is falsely advertised as 'equivalent to real signatures'
mircea_popescu: what the everloving fuck ELSE is snakeoil but "stupid shit that behaves as advertised and yet is not useful for any usecase"
asciilifeform: lulzily enough, best as i can tell, 'guy fawkes algo' is actually ~= the scheme i suggested here a few days ago.
asciilifeform: the one with the H(S+J) and the multiple timestamps, etc.
mircea_popescu: no, seriously, i should like to see a case of historical snake oil that DIDN'T fit that bill. all the way to wja bailey's "radium is restoring health to thousands" radithor
mircea_popescu: (in case anyone thought "let's add fluoride to water" is some sort of novel insanity : as american as apple pie. this schmuck added radium for the EXACT same purpose - it'll strengthen your teeth, cure gout and female anoyingness.)
mircea_popescu: "fluoridated water worked fine until his jaw came off" for great lulzstice.
asciilifeform: if ssri'd water were economically-feasible, it would probably have been made sop in the '90s.
asciilifeform: http://seclists.org/oss-sec/2016/q3/656 << in other lulz, Run Moar IPv6.
mircea_popescu: old news neh ?
mircea_popescu: ie, same exact issue existed in arp / ip
asciilifeform: !#s cat-v
mircea_popescu: why is bash bad for your karma again ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: drepper
asciilifeform: (bash, that is. not cat-v, who are smart folk and oughta be here)
shinohai: escalade privileges? I've always wanted a Caddy SUV
mircea_popescu: wait, drepper what ?
mircea_popescu: shall there be had a verb out of you ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it 404s.
mircea_popescu: i get an "archived at nothing found - bye" notice
asciilifeform: aha, i assumed this was their 404.
mircea_popescu: so is the conclusion here that "bash is bad for your karma" because "drepper told eberlein in 2007* that they only support bash over at libc" ? (*= https://www.sourceware.org/ml/libc-alpha/2007-01/msg00042.html )
asciilifeform: bash is 'heavy' and somewhat infested (e.g., 'shellshock' circus and sequelae); sh - less.
asciilifeform: so i can see the angle.
mircea_popescu: well sure. on the other hand, sh is also less used. for all you know it has three shellshocks.
asciilifeform: partly why i have not formally weight in on subj.
asciilifeform: also i can't say that i am especially at this point interested in attempts at unix sanitation.
mircea_popescu would like to convey this discussion to commenter. maybe ask him to join here ?
mircea_popescu: yeah, but maybe ~he~ is. who knows.
mircea_popescu: !!rate Mariono 1 Euloran
mircea_popescu: !!v EC52ECFA8DB46EB24459AAD5C88B1C1D895335D9B6EA779673534380704A7D92
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated Mariono 1 << Euloran
phf: sh (bourne shell) is almost never actually deployed on systems anymore. when people say "sh" they usually mean "posix compliant subset of shell language that was once implemented as sh, and now written into the standard". on linux sh is bash in compatability mode, on bsd sh is ksh also in compatability mode. fwiw busybox supports posix sh, but doesn't have bash
mircea_popescu: kinda why i wanted to inquire around the root of that palm "tree".
asciilifeform: aha, it is why you won't find a 'sh' tarball in, e.g., your gentoo's /usr/portage/distfiles.
asciilifeform: and i realize now that all of my boxes that 'only have sh' are actually busyboxtrons (e.g., pogo)
asciilifeform: (for the uninitiated, 'busybox' is simply a 'swiss army knife' thing that stuffs simplified versions of ~every~ basic unix util into 1 executable)
phf: i thought busybox at some point was a contender for tmsros user space
phf: oh i updated the btcbase version of lam-par
asciilifeform: ok, watch this:
asciilifeform: $ od -N 32 -An -t x1 /dev/urandom | tr -d " \n"
asciilifeform: b2c5ca41cc3d8dcbea8b88c549d984191b7839ac3d858bc8fd706cbf85e0927e
asciilifeform: $ od -N 32 -An -t x1 /dev/zero | tr -d " \n"
asciilifeform: 00000000000000000000000000000000*
asciilifeform: MOTHERFUCKER
asciilifeform: WHO GAVE YOU PERMISSION TO 'COMPRESS"
asciilifeform: not in the man page, also.
asciilifeform: burn it all.
asciilifeform: with flamethrowers.
phf: kek
asciilifeform: -v seems to kill it.
phf: it does, same behavior on bsd fwiw
phf: mod6: makefile is now in stable, nicely tying everything together, http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=stable
whaack: Greetings I'm trying to get a trb node running and I've gotten stuck during sync at block height 212033 any help would be appreciated here is the last 1k lines of my debug.log dpaste.com/03P772C
asciilifeform: !!up Mariono
deedbot: Mariono voiced for 30 minutes.
Mariono: so how to claim the free btc ?
Mariono: i already played a game and have a pgp message for claim the free bits
deedbot: Bad URL or network outage.
deedbot: Bad URL or network outage.
mircea_popescu: Mariono you encrypted it. don't encrypt it.
mircea_popescu: just sign
Mariono: ohw oke :D
asciilifeform: whaack: describe your built please
asciilifeform: whaack: and, where are you syncing from ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ahahahaha.
mircea_popescu: luser friendly, bitch! are you a luser ? no ? then whadda ya want!
deedbot: Bad URL or network outage.
mircea_popescu: trinque http://deedbot.org/faq.html is mebbe out of date also ?
mircea_popescu: Mariono raw text, not html.
deedbot: Bad URL or network outage.
mircea_popescu: you just put the signature part. needs whole message.
asciilifeform: $ od -N 32 -An -t x1 -v /dev/zero | tr -d " \n" | ./lamport_encode.sh privkey.txt | ./lamport_decode.sh sha256sum pubkey.txt
asciilifeform: MOTHERFUCKER
asciilifeform: bc TRUNCATES ZEROES
whaack: asciilifeform: I built following the steps of http://thebitcoin.foundation/trb-howto.html the online build section on a ubuntu 12.04 and by "where" do you mean my general lat/lng?
mircea_popescu: what an useful exercise this has turned out to be
asciilifeform: 'useful'
asciilifeform: whaack: what's in your '--addnode ...' ?
mircea_popescu: whaack he just means what ips have you specified to connect to if any.
mircea_popescu: !#s 212033
mircea_popescu: whaack how long has it been running / how long has it been stuck ?
whaack: I tried connecting to each individual node in the "trusted node" with -connect=ip -maxconnetions=1 -nolisten but when I did that debug.log kept showing askfor tx xxxxx 0
whaack: I've had it running for a few days, and it's been stuck on 212033 for about 24hrs of runtime I believe
mircea_popescu: is the system low on ram ?
thestringpuller: "If anything, having nice things on credit is not a bad strategy if you never paid the bills really and someone took losses instead" << US Millennials really believe this while riding around in a used BMW they technically don't own.
Mariono: btw mircea_popescu how to insert the message into it ?
whaack: it has 2g of ram
thestringpuller: When did scamming become a fucking business strategy?
mircea_popescu: whaack did you restart it in the 24 hours ?
whaack: yeah a few times
mircea_popescu: there's no specific problem known at that height ; trb does tend to want to use about 4gb or so if it can get to it.
mircea_popescu: Mariono it should have an option for "sign only" or "clearsign" or somesuch.
Mariono: i dont see sign only
Mariono: in the kleopatra just have pgp sign like this http://postimg.org/image/ygfw0njgv/
Mariono: i found it
mircea_popescu: was it s/mime sign ?
Mariono: like that right mircea_popescu
deedbot: rejected: 1
mircea_popescu: Mariono yup, like that.
Mariono: rejected?
mircea_popescu: trinque any idea why it rejects ? i see gpg: Good signature from "Mariono (Marionobitcointalk)
mircea_popescu: Mariono dun worry about it, you;re all set ; will have your payment later today.
mircea_popescu: oh dang.
mircea_popescu: Mariono bitcoin addresses start with 1 not with 3. do it again with a proper one.
Mariono: ohw
Mariono: the 3 is multisig address :D
mircea_popescu: what can i tell you.
Mariono: wait i will make a new one
mircea_popescu: alright.
deedbot: rejected: 1
mircea_popescu: Mariono ok, NOW you're good. you will have your payment later today.
asciilifeform: REGROUND AGAIN.
asciilifeform: article - corrected.
asciilifeform: thing is now... 69 lines.
asciilifeform: $ od -N 32 -An -t x1 -v /dev/zero | tr -d " \n" | ./lamport_encode.sh privkey.txt | ./lamport_decode.sh sha256sum pubkey.txt
asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
asciilifeform: ^ correct ^
asciilifeform: ^ mircea_popescu, phf , et al. ^
asciilifeform: $ echo "0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001" | ./lamport_encode.sh privkey.txt | ./lamport_decode.sh sha256sum pubkey.txt
asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001
asciilifeform: ^ likewise correct.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-29 17:45 whaack: it has 2g of ram
asciilifeform: btw, mircea_popescu , mod6 , et al: might be interesting to have a mempool-less mode (block relay only) for cases like this.
whaack: alright I'll get more ram on my machine then. that being said you don't imagine this would be a reason for it to stall for 24hrs on a single block?
asciilifeform: whaack: packets sent between btc nodes on the wild net have been known to 'mysteriously' vanish, like in bermuda triangle. the folks who control the backbones dislike bitcoin. the gold standard for syncing a newly-birthed node is to do so with a working node on your lan, or otherwise, if transporting it is impractical, via ssh tunnel to same.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-29 17:28 phf: mod6: makefile is now in stable, nicely tying everything together, http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=stable
asciilifeform: mod6 et al : was there a particular reason this one -- http://btcbase.org/patches/funken_prikey_tools -- was not considered for the release ? remind me. dun look like this was in the logz...
asciilifeform: ( i could even see an argument that, e.g., rawtx eater doesn't belong in trb , and that tx ought to be injected via the ordinary tcp method. but i dun recall having this argument )
deedbot: accepted: 1
trinque: mircea_popescu: Mariono: I need to fix key sync between the two servers involved in deeds
trinque puts on the list
trinque: afaik this is the first n00bdeed in a while, which is cool.
ben_vulpes: phf: why doesn't funkenstein's privkey tool patch show up on the patch graph?
mod6: asciilifeform: No vpatches, other than critical ones + the makefiles were considered. There is a blerb in the forthcoming SoBA that we will begin again taking a look at some of these that have been submitted.
asciilifeform: ok makes sense
trinque: ben_vulpes: I don't think it got in before other vpatches changed the antecedents
trinque: needs a regrind
ben_vulpes: 'ground out', ah.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform actually the mempool-node and the blockchain-node split is pretty evident and definitely necessary. they got spit-glued together because well, early on in the prototyping phase people didn't know what's the engine and what's gonna be the carriage so just made one ball of everything.
whaack: asciilifeform: is there a box I can create an ssh tunnel to? would I do something along the lines of ssh sync@46.166.165.30 -L 9001:127.0.0.1:8333 and then run bitcoind with -connect=127.0.0.1:9001?
mircea_popescu: whaack it is entirely possible that your node is stuck on validating that block because of lack of ram, yes.
mircea_popescu: !!up catvorg_cultist
deedbot: catvorg_cultist voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: whaack it's also possible you have one of the mysterious connectivity issues we've kept seeing but never managed to properly document. seems less likely.
mircea_popescu: there's a ream of other possible explanations also, at this juncture.
mircea_popescu: catvorg_cultist you the guy from alf's blog ?
catvorg_cultist: disclaimer: i'm not actually a part of cat-v.org group.
BingoBoingo: <Mariono> the 3 is multisig address :D << Not a real thing.
whaack: fwiw if I connect to only your "trusted nodes" list I connect but don't get back any resposes from asktxn requests etc. (assuming "askfor tx xxxx 0" in debug.log means the request returned nothing)
mircea_popescu: catvorg_cultist cool. so check this out : http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160929/#203
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-29: [16:35:36] <mircea_popescu> why is bash bad for your karma again ?
mircea_popescu: whaack how do you run it, something like -connect=108.31.170.49 -connect=54.187.227.228 -connect=46.166.165.30 -connect=91.218.246.31 -connect=172.86.178.46 -connect=50.168.67.12 ?
whaack: ./bitcoind -connect=108.31.170.49 -nolisten -maxconnections=1
whaack: cycling through them one at a time
mircea_popescu: you can use multiple in one go.
catvorg_cultist: it's non-standatd, it's full of undefined behavior and stupid gotchas like these http://mywiki.wooledge.org/BashPitfalls
BingoBoingo: Now kkksh far more standards compliant or at least more deterministic where it isn't
catvorg_cultist: Also it's bloated
mircea_popescu: amusingly, "always use quotes" and "don't use the sh wordsplitting" is good advice for sh just as much.
catvorg_cultist: Also also shellshock,
mircea_popescu: after all, they fucking invented that.
mircea_popescu: catvorg_cultist as pointed in the logs, non-bash is simply not used ; so the fact that dumb holes like that weren't found is not actually much proof they're not there.
catvorg_cultist: Well, the gospel recommends ditching sh completely and using rc shell from plan9 instead, but guess when this will happen en masse
mircea_popescu: masse isn't that much of a concern.
catvorg_cultist: it's a concern for loperos guy
BingoBoingo: Nah, eventually he's going to Chinese FPGA his own lisp machine
mircea_popescu: catvorg_cultist loperos guy = asciilifeform aka alf.
whaack: alright now i connected to the six you listed and I seem to be getting responses for my askfor tx requests, I'll leave this running for another 24hrs while I get more ram (should take about a week) and report back
catvorg_cultist: alf is that american tv show about an alien who eats cats.
mircea_popescu: "Cat-v.org Random Contrarian Insurgent Organization" (from http://cat-v.org/ ) << check those cats out lol.
mircea_popescu: whaack if you're inclined to tinker, you may try making the ring buffer discussed in the logs ; should solve the problem permanently.
mircea_popescu: huge task though.
BingoBoingo: catvorg_cultist: This alf prefers to watch unkept cats oppress local vermin
mircea_popescu: o look, there's even an irc.
mircea_popescu: pretty quiet.
catvorg_cultist: I should probably join that channel too at some point.
catvorg_cultist: Or just use irc more often in general.
mircea_popescu: well depends what you're trying to do.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-29 18:55 catvorg_cultist: it's non-standatd, it's full of undefined behavior and stupid gotchas like these http://mywiki.wooledge.org/BashPitfalls
mircea_popescu: anyway, consider registering your pgp key with deedbot, so you can self-voice.
asciilifeform: didja know, folks, that you cannot exit-with-return-code the script from a 'subshell' ?
asciilifeform: because it has genuinely nfi, apparently, that it is a sub.
mircea_popescu: this is correct, no ?
asciilifeform: 'correct' in the down's syndrome sense.
mircea_popescu: well, correct in the sense of simplicity. otherwise what do you do, maintain state ?
asciilifeform: if 'subshells' were a rare and largely unnecessary thing, that'd be one thing. but shells as a rule offer no clean way of doing 1,001 things other than subbing out to self
mircea_popescu: -ChanServ- [#cat-v] Welcome to #cat-v. State your assumptions or prepare to be boarded. << the similarities are striking.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the answer is called 'environment' and was a solved problem in lisp circa 1958.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform unix is more of a 1948 concern.
catvorg_cultist: We must protect the "environment".
asciilifeform: environments in the lisp sense, which resemble c-machine stack frames except not retarded.
asciilifeform: 'If a filename contains whitespace, it undergoes WordSplitting. Assuming we have a file named 01 - Don't Eat the Yellow Snow.mp3 in the current directory, the for loop will iterate over each word in the resulting file name: 01, -, Don't, Eat, etc. If a filename contains glob characters, it undergoes filename expansion ("globbing"). If ls produces any output containing a * character, the word containing it will become recognized as a
asciilifeform: pattern and substituted with a list of all filenames that match it.'
asciilifeform: also exemplary retardation. yeeeeh let's have null-terminated strings!111 we Luuuuuv doing O(N) length calculation, and random breakage !
asciilifeform: and especially string operations that never see their null and fail to terminate!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but it is not bash's fault that unix uses null-term strings.
asciilifeform: this is more re the folly of trying to clean this cloaca maxima.
mircea_popescu: the above is fucking correct behaviour (on the part of bash), it's your job to not do that to it. what.
mircea_popescu: why not use globbing properly for crying out loud.
asciilifeform: because car where each wheel has to be steered separately belongs in the scrapyard. and its builder - in meatyard.
asciilifeform: filename is an atom except when i EXPLICITLY desire the opposite.
asciilifeform: basic sanity ffs.
mircea_popescu: a generation of "if you don't know what a word means, don't go look it up in the dictionary, it's not like western culture is a thing or that you're bound to it my precious snowflake! you can do anything, so ~guess~ what might have been meant!" cca 1960s ran into the products of a generation that made things very much like an ak, cca 1940s. the results are exactly of this nature,
mircea_popescu: "oh, but i ~intuited~ in my very special place that parsing ls output is the way to go!"
asciilifeform: the point of even ~having the os~ to begin with is so that i do not have to steer the fuckingwheels separately.
asciilifeform: if i wanted to steer'em separately, i would and could run on bare iron.
asciilifeform: filenames - atomic.
mircea_popescu: i'm not defending unix notations.
asciilifeform: !!up catvorg_cultist
deedbot: catvorg_cultist voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: see also the thread re error codes
mircea_popescu: ftr i'm not even sure i've even seen spaces in filenames outside of windowze.
asciilifeform: the 'minimalism' of unix - and yes, of plan9, and the entire c-os universe - is a cardboard sham
mircea_popescu: on the web they become i%20am%20a%20windows%20fucktard.docx or such. because willy-nilly space is a thing.
asciilifeform: because the work of checking for error conditions ~still has to be done~, the os simply unloads it onto the back of programmer, and this could be lived with, except that it is ~not made possible~ for the programmer to unwind every possible condition.
asciilifeform: ( forget, for a moment, that this violates the promise that had us accept there being an os to begin with )
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/09/criminal-gang-in-dc-passes-another-resolution-to-continue-spending/ << Qntra - Criminal Gang In DC Passes Another Resolution To Continue Spending
mircea_popescu: in other news, i am enjoying the trifecta of superb coffee + local cognac + homemade muffins.
mircea_popescu: lyf is gowd.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-29#1550461 << point is not that they are common, but that they are 1) possible and 2) change behaviours of various utils in nonsensical ways.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-29 19:22 mircea_popescu: ftr i'm not even sure i've even seen spaces in filenames outside of windowze.
asciilifeform: a bug triggered by a case that won't happen in 10,001 years is STILL A BUIG
asciilifeform: like that 000000000....... thing from a few hrs ago
asciilifeform: and keep in mind, not all files are created from hand-cranked operations
mircea_popescu: i agree spaces in filenames should not be possible. nor for that matter any utf-8 bullshit.
mircea_popescu: all filenames should consist strictly of alphanum characters ; and if the os simply purged anything else, AND clobbered all files that thereby ended up with the same name into a single file, i'd applaud.
mircea_popescu: a "bug" that is introduced by trying to "support" idiots is not a bug. it is trying to support idiots. do not do that.
catvorg_cultist: clobbered in what order?
mircea_popescu: undefined.
catvorg_cultist: what was the name of that Rust clone of Unix, which run with "everything is a hyperlink".
catvorg_cultist: I guess it can do %20 instead of whitespaces no problem.
mircea_popescu: yes but this is too kind.
phf: plan9 standardized on quotes as a way to print/read filenames with special symbols (like space and newline) in it, but none of the filter tools support that convention, so awk print $1 will happily render "foo\space, grep will grep for "foo\newline with rest of filename cutoff in both cases
catvorg_cultist: >I was specifically and deliberately uninterested in using for this tutorial any language that is not already present on every reasonable box
catvorg_cultist: Wasn't most popular language javascript?
asciilifeform: catvorg_cultist: telling me that it functions IDENTICALLY wherever present?!
catvorg_cultist: Any opinions on asm.js?
asciilifeform: ( not to mention, on plenty of my boxes it is NOT present )
asciilifeform: fuck js and the horse it rode in on, and the ground under the horse, and the rock under the ground.
asciilifeform: with flamethrower.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform is going to run the us presidential elections. FUCK THE MALL TO DEATH!
phf: you could probably write to ecmascript 5, but even then you're not going to have enough to support what ascii is trying to do. for one, there are no integers.
asciilifeform: not only that, but that it is even CONCEIVABLE that i might have to care about some future browser wart.
mircea_popescu: did we yet do this lulz https://twitter.com/tmsr ?
asciilifeform: or to treat the output of idiot cocklets from 1990s as if it were hardware.
asciilifeform: fuck'em with red hot irons.
asciilifeform: all of'em.
phf: we broke ascii, we need more newblood here to immunize us against random "why not use rust in docker container!!"
mircea_popescu: in other news, this cat-v thing mostly looks like "an approximation of tmsr pops up every 10 years ; this is the 2005 version"
phf: i like how cat-v hosts their own copies of frequently linked rants, so that in a conversation one can just reference harmful.cat-v.org. like here's linus on c++, http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/linus
phf: !#s I_did_it_for_you_all
a111: 3 results for "I_did_it_for_you_all", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=I_did_it_for_you_all
mircea_popescu: almost like a primitive log.
phf: i like the whole 9front, plan9 fork, aesthetic, http://9front.org/img/thinkaboutthefuture.front.png but with plan9 influence they obviously started drinking the go koolaid, http://ninetimes.cat-v.org, lots of go tools, but "NOTE: This page ceased updating in October, 2012". i wonder if that's when they realized that they are drinking from google's corporate spittoon
mircea_popescu: incidentally asciilifeform you'd love these people. chat just exploded in a spontaneous demonstration of local brawn and might since i was there, much like a rus' village cca 1600 would. and the whole thing more or less consists of an ad hoc primitive argument for "fiots in head".
ben_vulpes: in which /me discovers http://www.vitanuova.com/
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how lond does a /stats/ pageload take on phuctor ?
phf: ben_vulpes: inferno is entirely written in a precursor language to Go
ben_vulpes: i was unaware that Go had precursors!
ben_vulpes imagined it springing forth fully formed from the forehead of some unknown in the google pits
phf: "limbo"
phf: i think precursor to that was newsqueak
ben_vulpes: interesting
ben_vulpes: phf: ever work with any of it?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it ain't logged anywhere, is it..?
asciilifeform: care to paste?
mircea_popescu: they're primitive for a reason. illiterate.
mircea_popescu: aite a sec
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-29#1550512 << depending on how long it's been since anybody loaded it, can take up to 30s...
a111: Logged on 2016-09-29 20:24 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how lond does a /stats/ pageload take on phuctor ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform takes me about a minute or two even now, though i loaded it minutes ago
mircea_popescu: the phuctored page is quick tho, which is what i cared about
asciilifeform: they're all cached. the problem is that caching the stats page does little good, it changes
mircea_popescu: aha. alrighty.
asciilifeform: 'Sep 29 16:57:33 <dv-> keep your filthy buttcoins' << lol!
mircea_popescu: just like the strippers, back in 2012.
mircea_popescu: there's something fundamental about stupidity.
asciilifeform: 'Sep 29 17:32:52 <mircea_popescu> well no, and i can't remedy that, because no logs.
asciilifeform: Sep 29 17:33:00 <khm> system working as intended'
asciilifeform: gotta love imbecilistans.
trinque: ben_vulpes: who does that remind you of?!11!
ben_vulpes: that unremarkable cult of dipshits where the incompetents won.
trinque: lel
trinque: hell that's too broad
trinque: in other news, goodbye to guy named for club in which he isn't.
mircea_popescu: it's basically ~= teenage girlies at their first frat party.
ben_vulpes: trinque: and /i'm/ being too broad now?
ben_vulpes: anyways fuck that guy.
trinque: last part.
mircea_popescu: lol what ? why ?
ben_vulpes: his fat face fills me with rage.
mircea_popescu: you... have a face for the name ?!
ben_vulpes: different name, sorry.
trinque: I was making fun of the guy who parted.
mircea_popescu: pizzaman1337 you know you're still doing the login wrong. gotta put the mask on first.
trinque: prior to that making fun of mutual acquaintences that gendercommit key-value stores written in edgylang
ben_vulpes: trinque: aok i geddit now
ben_vulpes: docking addicts
mircea_popescu: !#s ben stein
mircea_popescu: !~google ben stein
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Ben Stein: <http://www.mrbenstein.com/>; Ben Stein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Stein>; Ben Stein - IMDb: <http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0825401/>
mircea_popescu: til. check out what the made-for-tv jew stereotype is named! BEN STEIN!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: oh ffs, cat-v appears to be ~redditesque pigsty, i have nfi why to bother.
mircea_popescu: mildly amusing. besides i'm waiting on some stuffs.
asciilifeform: that'd be the, what, 2nd time someone 'you couldn't possibly be The Real mircea_popescu !111' , neh ?
mircea_popescu: more like 3kth, but whatevs.
mircea_popescu: so basically, the cat-v story is, they had a mp. who died. the end.
mircea_popescu: well, naggum-died, but anyway.
asciilifeform: happens.
mircea_popescu: apparently it happens all the damned time wtf is with these people.
asciilifeform: or how about the thing where they insist on leaving no record of back when they were potentially interesting.
asciilifeform: ( helps , i suppose, the wankers to pretend to be 'continuing', i suppose )
mircea_popescu: i have nfi.
BingoBoingo: <trinque> in other news, goodbye to guy named for club in which he isn't. << Reminds me I should get back to work on that fanfic because cults are so unfair
mircea_popescu: hey yeah, the hell on weens is almost here!
BingoBoingo: We know what is under vaginas, but what is under James!!!
phf: this was fun to watch, until it got depressing somehow. retrocomputing conversation killed me though, so if there's a continuation to the saga, remaining observers please share
mircea_popescu: i kinda lost interest myself.
mircea_popescu: why are they so fucking petrified of me anyway.
BingoBoingo: They saw how fast your attention drew Microshaft into fucking the OpenBDSM community.
phf: i suspect at some point their antagonism was byproduct of the kind of work they did, but now, with no work or direction left, antagonism is all that's left. it was really odd, i kept expecting everyone to just shake hands though..
phf: i was part of a similar channel, where snr started dropping rapidly and the founder didn't have the heart to start removing people. a handful of us who were actually doing things just ended up moving to a different, much smaller channel. i remember one of the guys who started ineptly throwing weight, kremlin, from that other channel. useless hangeron. the default banter just reminded of the other low snr place...
pete_dushenski: <sl_>its not necessary for me to tear down linux, its necessary for linux to demonstrate some worth << sounds an awful lot like "what is the value of the sun to me" or at least a very ustardian sort of "passive resistance is teh real resistance" as per campus banana hanger, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-28#1549948
a111: Logged on 2016-09-28 21:56 shinohai: http://archive.is/R5PKk <<< Man in gorilla mask shows up at blm protest to hand out bananas wrapped in nooses.
pete_dushenski: in any event, kudos to mircea_popescu for the staying power demonstrated in #cat-v! gems were mined, oh how the lulzgems were mined.
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1762&cpage=1#comment-17924 << meanwhile, some folx luuvvv to complain.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-29#1550582 << struck me as an entire pit full of nubbinses.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-29 22:07 phf: i was part of a similar channel, where snr started dropping rapidly and the founder didn't have the heart to start removing people. a handful of us who were actually doing things just ended up moving to a different, much smaller channel. i remember one of the guys who started ineptly throwing weight, kremlin, from that other channel. useless hangeron. the default banter just reminded of the other low snr place...
asciilifeform: was apparent 30 seconds in.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: what's with these pseudonymous commenters who don't link to their own personal blogs ?
pete_dushenski: unless they're regulars of yours...
phf: asciilifeform: i had cat-v and 9front in some high regard, i was actually surprised there was a channel, with ~people~ in it
phf: turns out, markov chain generators
asciilifeform: at one time i took an interest in plan9
asciilifeform: then realized that 'bonsai' versions of objectionable large things will inevitably grow into the selfsame objectionable large thing.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: bravo on the parachute btw. looking forward to more publishings that 'everyone knows already' but really doesn't and that are 'incredibly obvious to alert reader' but really aren't.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: didja work through the exercise ?
asciilifeform: that was sorta the point
pete_dushenski: up to my ears atm
asciilifeform: http://woodcoin.xyz/woodcoin/today << lelz, apparently funkenstein made his own chan, a while ago, complete with logs, bots, etc.
mircea_popescu: pretty cool.
mircea_popescu: phf i dunno, doesn't register as antagonism in my head, just pure fear. which is weird, but w/e.
BingoBoingo: !~bcstats
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Current Blocks: 432132 | Current Difficulty: 2.4122720022999103E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 433439 | Next Difficulty In: 1307 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 0 hours, 19 minutes, and 51 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
mircea_popescu shall have to reserve a quiet hour for this drinking record.
asciilifeform bbl - meat!
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Tis short. I'm trying the episodic thing
shinohai: Did I miss a drinking record post while I ws down? /me searches lawgs
a111: Logged on 2016-09-29 22:08 BingoBoingo: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2016/09/29/is-so-unfair-cycle-1/ << To be continued
shinohai: ty BingoBoingo
shinohai: A serial!
mircea_popescu: phf it should perhaps be pointed out that the relation between current population of random channel and software/essaywriting projects of a guy dead half decade ago may well be tenuous. imagine if you were trying to judge say masamune on basis of #clim
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160929/#601 aus so krummem holze, als woraus der mensch gemacht ist, keine schmeichelei aufrichtiger or something.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-29: [22:36:27] <asciilifeform> http://woodcoin.xyz/woodcoin/today << lelz, apparently funkenstein made his own chan, a while ago, complete with logs, bots, etc.
phf: i like the stylesheet
mircea_popescu: meh, cursives.
phf: it's like Ent take on tmsr
mircea_popescu: i think that's kinda the plan. guy has some sort of anthropotree fetish.
phf: ahaha, their logger is maintained by "phm"
mircea_popescu: lol! some guy named philippe mominykh i hope ?
BingoBoingo: lol that's not a real address in that deed
mircea_popescu: there's a later deed where he gets it right
shinohai sighs
trinque: pffflol
trinque: in which case...
mircea_popescu: lost love ?
shinohai: Imma add "You can piss right off with p2sh addy's" to the instructions.
trinque put through the wrong one
deedbot: accepted: 1
mircea_popescu: shinohai not a bad idea.
mod6: asciilifeform: http://dpaste.com/3YP79KE.txt << looks good, thanks for the updates!
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-29#1550626 << lol BingoBoingo i have this in dead tree
a111: Logged on 2016-09-29 23:18 BingoBoingo: In other noble panics http://www.bigheadpress.com/tpbtgn?page=77
asciilifeform: mod6: neato
mircea_popescu: google wants all the things huh.
mircea_popescu: and fucking punycode omfg.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I believe it was discussed in chan before, but Imma rereading it because pretty sure the booze was driving last time.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: it was lulzy
asciilifeform: had parallel universe with non-sucking usa
asciilifeform: and talking gorillas, etc
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