Hide Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2016-01-30 | 2016-02-01 → ↓
assbot: Alright, I give up. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Pq7t68 )
asciilifeform: Achtung, Panzers!
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes, mod6, mircea_popescu, et al:
assbot: [BTC-dev] Shiva bug fix. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Pq7ven )
mircea_popescu: wait shouldn't shiva 2 be restated instead ?
assbot: ASUS KCMA-D8 server/workstation board ... ( http://bit.ly/1Pq7yqk )
mircea_popescu: that's a pretty sweet board.
BingoBoingo: Dual opteron, apparently only text mode works but who needs graphics when you have two opterons?
mircea_popescu: incidentally, this would be a pretty interesting sideline/possible job for someone dedicated. sell pre-made, fully liberated board+chip kits. for to go intos ervers etc.
mircea_popescu: i'd definitely add him to the top of the list of providers for colocation.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo server graphics ?
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Dual opteron could be useful in workstation.
BingoBoingo: For build box, etc
mircea_popescu: i have no idea why anyone'd keep locally a box they don't actually use to play games on, but hey.
mircea_popescu: if it computes it belongs in a dc.
BingoBoingo: To yell at of course!
assbot: It's Puppy Bowl season once again. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Pq7Sp4 )
BingoBoingo: "The fun doesn't stop at just watching the Puppy Bowl, though. Like in all sports now, fantasy Puppy Bowl is huge, and you can go to Animal Planet's website to draft your fantasy Puppy Bowl squad. You pick three dogs to go up against your friends. There's a scorecard and everything. I went on and drafted my team, and I think I have a strong chance to come out on top in Puppy Bowl fantasy. I mean, just look at this lineup. Bijoux,
BingoBoingo: Wrinkles and Kevin? Talk about a murderer's row."
mircea_popescu: is this what fat people think sports are ?
BingoBoingo: Except with puppies
pete_dushenski: as played exclusively by the hippies that alf trips over at 'health food store'
pete_dushenski: or is this some ploy to get fillies into competitive fantasy sports ?
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> wait shouldn't shiva 2 be restated instead ? << this is probably a better. and its not even in the mirror at this point anyway.
mod6: good catch though!
mod6: i apprecaite your efforts here.
mod6: no rush anyway, im gonna pick this stuff back up tomorrow.
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: Prolly the later
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 225574 @ 0.00055605 = 125.4304 BTC [-] {6}
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: didn't some usgmegacorp try something similar recently only to have it backfire spectacularly ?
BingoBoingo: Which time?
pete_dushenski: aha. #hackahairdryer by ibm.
BingoBoingo: But no, the puppybowl has a surprisingly long history.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390735 << i have a very similar board here, a 'tyan'
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 05:12:41; mircea_popescu: that's a pretty sweet board.
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: werd
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 05:13:11; BingoBoingo: Dual opteron, apparently only text mode works but who needs graphics when you have two opterons?
BingoBoingo: People who want to put it into a mobile enclosure do
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390743 << i ain't keeping locally anything that won't push ~5000x5000 pixels
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 05:15:11; mircea_popescu: if it computes it belongs in a dc.
asciilifeform: do ~that~ from dc.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: how do you have something ~that~ powerful running... silently ? and without iridium toilet ?
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: it is not silent at all, this is in the logs. and it drives me mad.
asciilifeform: about same noise level as sov refrigerator.
pete_dushenski: aha. you ~wished~ it were silent. i misunderstood. i thought you had it nailed already.
asciilifeform: every so often, i go on a binge of installing gaskets, costly german fans, etc. but the result is always the same:
asciilifeform: machine that sound EXACTLY as annoying
asciilifeform: ear - recalibrates.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 76250 @ 0.00055566 = 42.3691 BTC [-] {3}
asciilifeform: presently installing something quite like iridium toilet - slowly replacing the whole raid with ssd
asciilifeform: (in raid5)
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 05:13:17; mircea_popescu: incidentally, this would be a pretty interesting sideline/possible job for someone dedicated. sell pre-made, fully liberated board+chip kits. for to go intos ervers etc.
asciilifeform: their board isn't even SOLD with ANYTHING but coreboot (linuxbios)
pete_dushenski: but not in wot
asciilifeform: and it's a g-series. while it lasts.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: amd is not in wot, while we're at it
asciilifeform: and is in fact certifiably satanic today
pete_dushenski: we're not at it ?
pete_dushenski: not everything has to drill to the earth's core.
asciilifeform: point being, there are not so many mb makers which ship full schematics.
asciilifeform: and intel-free.
asciilifeform: i know of only 2, actually.
pete_dushenski: tyan and...
asciilifeform: tyan is not on the list
asciilifeform: 'pcengines' and 'gizmosphere'
pete_dushenski googles, reads
asciilifeform: they sell very similar items
asciilifeform: amd g-series ultraminiature things
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 92619 @ 0.00055501 = 51.4045 BTC [-] {6}
mircea_popescu: yeah, pcengines could alternatively get in the wot.
asciilifeform: only to get negrated once they run out of g-series ? l0l
asciilifeform: a mb maker is a lowly creature, sorta like a btc miner, follows where the wind blows.
mircea_popescu: yeah well.
asciilifeform: x86 is a moribund thing.
asciilifeform: iirc boards that will boot ~only~ winblowz 10 have already hit the shops.
pete_dushenski: ;;later tell danielpbarron please to point mr. lee (https://twitter.com/binarybits) to http://www.contravex.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/letter-to-timothy-b-lee-january-28-2016.txt jic it ended up in his email spam filter (and so it's public). gracias amigo!
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: i dun see anyone getting negrated through communicating sanely.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: ipads that only boot iosx were playing the same game before that. mac desktops before that too.
pete_dushenski has not tried, say, gentoo on xeon mac, can't confirm
pete_dushenski: "Then in Davos I joined people like Kevin Spacey, and Jimmy Wales (the founder of Wikipedia) on a panel talking about cyber-security. The general sense in the room is that a distributed, encrypted database like the blockchain could be key to creating a more secure computing environment and a more secure world." << now i get why reporters call ~me~ a "security expert", because motherfucking 60yo actors are sittin
pete_dushenski: g on cyber-security panels in davos. now i get it.
assbot: The blockchain: big opportunity or big danger? | Toronto Star ... ( http://bit.ly/1P4XAam )
pete_dushenski: author is "Don Tapscott a best-selling author most recently The Digital Economy, Adjunct Professor at the Rotman School of Management, University of Toronto and the chancellor of Trent University."
pete_dushenski: haha perfect
mats: this torontostar shit is replete with english mistakes
mats: nobody takes journalism seriously
pete_dushenski: too busy buying and selling each other's homes
mats: >The enthusiasm was in stark contrast to my next meeting meeting—with 60 CEO’s of big banks banks.
mats: what the actual fuck fuck
pete_dushenski: no one could've predicted that reading trash rags gets one riled up
mats: ;;seen nubbins`
gribble: nubbins` was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 6 weeks, 2 days, 14 hours, 48 minutes, and 35 seconds ago: <nubbins`> <+mircea_popescu> in other news, chick on okcupid : "porque no me escribis en castellano << they say castellano in peru too, but if i'm not mistaken this is not universal in south america?
assbot: Chiraqi Police Sabotaging Surveillance Equipment | Qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/1RTjYcz )
assbot: Obama to address deeply divided Illinois Legislature : News ... ( http://bit.ly/1P4ZiZe )
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: l0l!
BingoBoingo: Obama is finally going attend an Illinois senate session
mircea_popescu: dude who the fuck are kevin spacey and jimbo wales already.
mircea_popescu: the consensus among kim kardashian, zsa zsa gabor, hussein bahamas and that guy from cheers is that a kilogram of feathers really should be lighter than a kilogram of derp entrails.
mircea_popescu: in other news of similar weight and importance, leyla black was kinda hot a decade ago.
BingoBoingo: ^ totally
mircea_popescu: not really her retarded totemcash/loadedcash/twistys idiotic stuff. but she did some ok outdoor work back in the day.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 91900 @ 0.00056673 = 52.0825 BTC [+] {3}
mircea_popescu does the leyla black with new girls to this very day.
BingoBoingo: lol, yeah these thinks are kinda transient
ben_vulpes: what is "the leyla black"?
ben_vulpes: http://www.northofreality.com/secrets/ << bit of a shame that aramcheck's not in the wot and on patreon, i like his weirdfic.
assbot: Secrets — NORTH OF REALITY ... ( http://bit.ly/1RTmb7L )
punkman: btw the ASUS KCMA-D8 port was offered for $15k, wonder who paid it https://www.mail-archive.com/coreboot@coreboot.org/msg45741.html
assbot: [coreboot] ASUS KCMA-D8 workstation board port offer ... ( http://bit.ly/1RTmb7V )
punkman: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390737 < I've been considering that for a while, but I'm not really into junkyard-wars
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 05:13:17; mircea_popescu: incidentally, this would be a pretty interesting sideline/possible job for someone dedicated. sell pre-made, fully liberated board+chip kits. for to go intos ervers etc.
punkman: although I guess these Asus boards are still being made at the factory
ben_vulpes: yo mod6 what does it mean in perl to do my $var = "string" . \n "otherstring" is the period a linebreak escape in perl, and the variable implicitly a concatenation of the two strings?
punkman: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-01-2016#1390063 sure, if I can get low-power machine with ECC, I probably wouldn't mind the slower cores for most uses. These looked kinda neat http://www.tilera.com/products/?ezchip=585&spage=618
assbot: Logged on 30-01-2016 18:26:28; jurov: <punkman> asciilifeform: there are more "server ARM" things coming out... << you really want like, 64 shitty cores on the workstation instead of 4x x86?
assbot: EZchip | TILE-Gx72 ... ( http://bit.ly/1QA3kvl )
punkman: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-01-2016#1390202 gonna need an audio track to go with that
assbot: Logged on 30-01-2016 19:45:55; danielpbarron: get nubbins` or someone to make some nice artwork on it and i'll buy
punkman: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390334 what does rebase mean here? it's a term of art in version control
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 01:25:55; mircea_popescu: ideally, you go read the whole fucking thing, rebase and sign as your own.
ben_vulpes: has anyone else noticed the following when using build-bitcoind-9999*K.sh?
ben_vulpes: "gpg: WARNING: not a detached signature; file `buildroot-2015.05.tar.gz' was NOT verified!"?
pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes: need korsgaard's key
ben_vulpes: punkman: by my read 'rebase' as mircea_popescu uses it means 'dump into the v tree'
assbot: Logged on 02-01-2016 05:43:08; phf: gpg: key 59C36319: public key "Peter Korsgaard <jacmet@uclibc.org>" imported
ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski: nah, because i get "good signature from korsgaard"
pete_dushenski: oh hm. i dunno then. sorry
ben_vulpes: but this fucking term just lost my motherfucking scrollback, because people reinventing wheels for os x have no historical context
punkman: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-01-2016#1390083 < might be good as a separate utility. cuts down on v.pl dependencies too.
assbot: Logged on 30-01-2016 18:38:04; mod6: is it worthwhile to rip out my graphing stuff out of V?
ben_vulpes goes digging through the gui for "never ever fucking toss my scrollback option"
pete_dushenski to dream of quieter nights
punkman: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-01-2016#1390090 several weeks of testing just for V? good god my dear fellow
assbot: Logged on 30-01-2016 18:40:13; mod6: so -- i might need several weeks at min to test out v99995 of V
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 378.72, vol: 2286.81911093 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 382.491, vol: 2894.33858 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 378.35, vol: 7789.42880116 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 380.0, vol: 0.41873277 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 384.104, vol: 39441.74380000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 380.99979, vol: 189.24228801 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 382.3343, vol: 18.40843268 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)
BingoBoingo: ;;more
gribble: 382.917712561
ben_vulpes: punkman: "he's a good man, and thorough"
punkman: on second read I hope it just means mod6 would be busy doing other things
ben_vulpes: unrelatedly, while we're ripping the rug out from under mod6, is there a good reason to continue with the inconsistent directory structure of `./.seals' and `./patches'?
punkman: ben_vulpes: how is it inconsistent?
ben_vulpes: well one is prefixed with the stupid unix hidden-file/dir period convention
punkman: oooh right
punkman: I just have ./sigs ./patches in vit
ben_vulpes: punkman: vit's a v.py descendant, correct?
punkman: no, complete rewrite
ben_vulpes: ever share it?
assbot: [BTC-dev] Some test patches and my V implementation ... ( http://bit.ly/1NZjGPg )
ben_vulpes: nifty
punkman: I did start with v.py, but mangled most things
punkman: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=29-01-2016#1389213 << gotta figure out a way to minimize the re-grinding imho
assbot: Logged on 29-01-2016 20:20:44; ascii_butugychag: the reason why i once suggested breaking up all patches into atomic patchons is that right now we have a stricter than necessary dependency flow
punkman: why I kept saying that I don't like release patches that touch *everything*
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell mod6 i got v.pl into a weird place where it didn't clean up its gnupg tempdir. perhaps consider using an "exit_gracefully" function where you're currently simply "die"-ing.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell mod6 alternatively, consider using mktemp -d
gribble: The operation succeeded.
ben_vulpes: i am struck by a question i find interesting
ben_vulpes: is everyone who hacks on this thing to write and use their own vtronic cockpit controls? or is the production of /a/ vtron usable in other contexts a goal?
ben_vulpes: this is probably a purposes and causes thing, huh. avoid working towards the purpose of usable software for other people, and proceed from the cause of "hell is other people's code"...
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell mod6 stick a random file with .html suffix in the patches dir to reproduce the stale gnupg dir big
gribble: The operation succeeded.
ben_vulpes: probably any non-vpatch file'd do the trick.
punkman: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-01-2016#1390093 would provide hands-off testing to see whether your new patch compiles to different archs, with different libc, etc. think jenkins
assbot: Logged on 30-01-2016 18:41:43; jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-01-2016#1389596 << what would this be good for? you are welcome to sign + post the binaries to ml yourself
punkman: ben_vulpes: what happened to your buildatron?
ben_vulpes: punkman: jenkins? or v.lisp?
ben_vulpes: or ak47.sh?
ben_vulpes: i shut the jenkins down because full syncs of each patch was prohibitively resource and time intensive and parallelized poorly
ben_vulpes: v.lisp has just been languishing on the island of poorly written and embarassing software
punkman: what's ak47.sh
ben_vulpes: and buildroot handily obsoleted ak47.sh
ben_vulpes: a well polished bash turd
assbot: Hacking on the Satoshi Codebase: Some Pointers ... ( http://bit.ly/200Hrru )
ben_vulpes: never for battle
punkman: what's a full sync in jenkins?
ben_vulpes: another entry in the long list of things i've written that never made it into the truck
ben_vulpes: trunk*
ben_vulpes: a full sync of each bitcoind produced by each patch sent to the ml
punkman: just the compiling part and maybe the existing unit tests would be good enough
punkman: I'd help rig it up if the foundation so wishes
ben_vulpes: funnily enough i just nuked its builddir
ben_vulpes: this was god i don't know how many months ago
ben_vulpes: dunno man i don't actually think it's of much value. having actual humans in the actual wot build things is much more important.
ben_vulpes: scripting the whole process in the context of "continuous integration servers" is nifty, but finding the noob caltrops is also important.
ben_vulpes: punkman: you could always contribute to b,tmsr's deficit by standing the jenkins instance up yourself.
ben_vulpes: ah wait no that wasn't ak47.sh
assbot: a tour of bitcoind booting to its first thread ... ( http://bit.ly/1ONsjId )
ben_vulpes: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2016-January/000201.html << i swear i saw some mentione of this earlier but cannot find it now. for those playing along at home, the sig name for these patches that will please v.pl is <patchname>.vpatch.<signatory's_wot_handle>.asc
assbot: [BTC-dev] Tinyscheme Genesis, Cleanup, and Fixes, CORRECTED; -and- Shiva Pedigree Bridge. ... ( http://bit.ly/1SfJl8P )
gribble: The operation succeeded.
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell jurov and eulorans et al you might want to look into this tinyscheme thing
gribble: The operation succeeded.
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell diana_coman ^^
gribble: The operation succeeded.
diana_coman: thanks ben_vulpes , I'll have a look; it's been ages since I last wrote anything in Scheme as such, but if there's a chance of moving the client away from cpp it's certainly worth having a look at
ben_vulpes: diana_coman: i doubt you'll move the client away from cpp, but tinyscheme is a potential route to embedding scheme /in/ the existing client.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform plans to use it to inspect memory of running bitcoinds in real time
assbot: [BTC-dev] (EXPERIMENTAL) Introducing: Shiva. ... ( http://bit.ly/1SN6qPP )
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 09:33:50; ben_vulpes: asciilifeform plans to use it to inspect memory of running bitcoinds in real time
diana_coman: well, there is no hard requirement as such to have the client written in cpp; but it's true that it's quite a huge effort to make an alternative, sane client (for one thing, I'd love a text-only client for instance)
ben_vulpes: diana_coman: no hard requirement, sure, i just imagine that replacing the crystalspace client's going to be no small pile of reverse engineering. i say this knowing nothing about the cs server/client software relationship.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 115900 @ 0.00055539 = 64.3697 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 117200 @ 0.00055835 = 65.4386 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 107750 @ 0.00056069 = 60.4143 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: ben_vulpes: eulora code is several levels more crooked than satoshi's, i tried to ffi python and left that for later in disgust.
jurov: that aside, there are completely different set of requirements, like, easy debugging. if lisp, then rather something with slime and good library bundled.
BingoBoingo: https://www.rt.com/op-edge/330710-politics-america-hate-intolerance/ >> "In these times, the ‘little guy’ cannot afford to pay rent on the trailer home, not to mention a bottle of brew. The ‘little guy’ now possesses a large amount of anger about the political system that doesn't work for him, which shouldn’t be surprising since he repeatedly voted against his own interests during the republican tenure. Or, on the other
assbot: Politics of hate and intolerance alive & well in America’s ‘flyover country' — RT Op-Edge ... ( http://bit.ly/1VyPnit )
BingoBoingo: hand, he voted for change advanced by the Obama team’s marketing "hopium" which resulted in him running in circles backwards in socio-economic terms."
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 130300 @ 0.00055309 = 72.0676 BTC [-] {6}
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 09:36:51; diana_coman: well, there is no hard requirement as such to have the client written in cpp; but it's true that it's quite a huge effort to make an alternative, sane client (for one thing, I'd love a text-only client for instance)
jurov: eulora altclient is not exactly about "reverse engineering", but that the network protocol layer uses C++ primitives with liberally mixed preprocessor and templates
jurov: so far no idea how to convert that into anything saner, or ffi-interface that stuff
BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 395946 | Current Difficulty: 1.2003334065123697E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 397151 | Next Difficulty In: 1205 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 0 hours, 8 minutes, and 22 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 186400 @ 0.00055217 = 102.9245 BTC [-] {4}
wyrdmantis: ;;nethash
gribble: 1033158757.07
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70134 @ 0.00055512 = 38.9328 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: hey trinque jurov phf : would it be possible to take that very nice graph phf showed, turn it into a proper svg and have the nodes clickable ?
mircea_popescu: ideally the result of a click should be a page including at least a) an enumerations of all the keys required to get there ; b) a script that will press to that particular height.
mircea_popescu: and thinking about it on the way from bed to machine, because this idea woke me up : it seems deedbot and the ml management really should be merged. any conceivable reason patches can't be submitted via deedbot's mechanism ? not necessarily to remove the email feeding, but as an add-on ?
punkman: making deeds with all the emails?
mircea_popescu: just, if you want to add a patch, should be able to dump it as dpaste also.
punkman: clearsigned patches get mangles line endings and things
punkman: *mangled
mircea_popescu: can has container.
mircea_popescu: http://www.xenosystems.net/chaos-patch-99/ << this guy is fucking epic lol. "go is gone. Yudkowsky sounds the alarm." and links a fb posting.
assbot: Outside in - Involvements with reality » Blog Archive » Chaos Patch (#99) ... ( http://bit.ly/1KPtcPz )
mircea_popescu: so, so perfect.
mircea_popescu: or to quote a purple prose producer of recent fame in my household, "Her silky smooth butt-crack was flawless, the only interruption along the length of it, was her pink, rosy butt-hole. Underneath her crack, were her fluffy, velvety beef curtains, just looking so, so scrumptious."
punkman: needs moar links
assbot: On that 2015 Record Warmest Claim « Roy Spencer, PhD ... ( http://bit.ly/1KPu1YD )
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 06:49:42; ben_vulpes: what is "the leyla black"?
assbot: What is the Leyla Black ? on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1KPwdza )
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 14:48:21; mircea_popescu: http://www.xenosystems.net/chaos-patch-99/ << this guy is fucking epic lol. "go is gone. Yudkowsky sounds the alarm." and links a fb posting.
asciilifeform: !s lesswrong
assbot: 34 results for 'lesswrong' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=lesswrong
mircea_popescu: nono but the circumstances. he posted on fb ?
mircea_popescu: about the dangers of evil ai ?
asciilifeform: their cult has been 'evaporatively cooling' (y's own term!111) for ages.
mircea_popescu: so that what, the idiot fbheads can click the correct emotional response icon to help the evil ai segment them ?
mircea_popescu: i knew gmaxwell wasn't intelligent enough to come up with that stupid shit on his own.
asciilifeform: and 'post on fb' to these benighted folk is same as voting in the obummer election, etc. - just 'something all civilized do' or whatnot.
mircea_popescu: so he scarfed it up from derpowksi ?
assbot: Evaporative Cooling of Group Beliefs - Less Wrong ... ( http://bit.ly/1KPwUZv )
mircea_popescu: "I was looking at a Java applet which demonstrates the use of evaporative cooling to form a Bose-Einstein condensate, when it occurred to me that another force entirely might operate to increase fanaticism. "
mircea_popescu: ahaha what. it OCCURRED TO HIM ?
mircea_popescu: heavens to herpinstocks, the idea is older than the fucking persian empire.
mircea_popescu: but the very grand intellectualistic value of someone who was watching einsten play out of his bose speakers in his spare time is well noted, of course.
mircea_popescu: how fortunate are we to have such bright minds around us. i gotta get myself one of them bose.
asciilifeform: wrong bose
mircea_popescu: you don't say.
asciilifeform: of all things in the piece, picking at the one that actually made sense ?
mircea_popescu: anyway, it occured to me while i was eating a niels bohr raisin cake (with little electron raisins floating in the batter) that this is how fucking spammers work, too. as discussed here a nujmber of times already.
asciilifeform: though i don't know why he had to go for the condensate, ordinary water behaves in quite the same way
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it didn't make sense.
asciilifeform: now - yes.
mircea_popescu: pretentious fuckwad / out of his weight ignoramus for the fucking win over here.
mircea_popescu: THIS is the product of wikipedia. THIS AND ONLY THIS.
asciilifeform: y suffered from delusions of physics - he was 'raised for physics' by his father, but didn't make the cut, and never lived it down
mircea_popescu: it doesn't "bring science". it empowers ambitious knownothing.
asciilifeform: ended up even writing 'guide to qm' for his cultists
mircea_popescu: and it occurred to me while conducting fart ciclotron reactions in my spare time that there's nothing more dangerous than an idiot with a little knowledge
mircea_popescu: than an ambitious idiot with a little knowledge.
mircea_popescu: and this is what wikipedia does. nothing else.
mircea_popescu: worst fucking idea in the history of ideas, if they just let jimbo fuck children until he fell over the world'd have been better off.
asciilifeform: the hilarious part is that y had a piece on ~this~ also
asciilifeform: y'know, sorta like sc4mz0rz, card sharps, understand fraud better than honest folk
assbot: To Spread Science, Keep It Secret - Less Wrong ... ( http://bit.ly/1Tv2X8d )
mircea_popescu: he's 2nd generation scum, aims to systemd the original scum.
mircea_popescu: this is in fact how it works : we, aim to V the original lispworld. scum - aims to systemd wikipedia.
asciilifeform: the mega-question is why thiel is paying him to do this 24/7
mircea_popescu: java fucking appled NEVER DEMONSTRATED ANYTHING OMFG FUCK YOUR DUMB MOTHER WITH SOMEONE ELSE'S BROOMSTICK
asciilifeform: (and enough to support a harem, if rumour is to be believed)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because thiel got money and no self respect.
asciilifeform: this is an explanation ?
mircea_popescu: i mean that quite profoundly - thiel has seen the narrow horizon of the pen and contented himself that "this is everywhere".
mircea_popescu: this is what having no self respect fundamentally means.
asciilifeform: why not put the money in a pyre and light it?
asciilifeform: would do loads more good than feeding yudkowsky
mircea_popescu: there can not be any good.
asciilifeform: good in the sense of refraining from creating monster
mircea_popescu: o check it out, bose-einstein bombmaking!
mircea_popescu: this is really good cracked.com article
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 06:54:12; ben_vulpes: http://www.northofreality.com/secrets/ << bit of a shame that aramcheck's not in the wot and on patreon, i like his weirdfic.
asciilifeform remembers writing to yudkowsky in the late '90s, when both were harmless and penniless crackpots
asciilifeform: didja know he was thrown out of school ?
asciilifeform: psych breakdown
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 07:11:56; punkman: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390334 what does rebase mean here? it's a term of art in version control
assbot: Git - Rebasing ... ( http://bit.ly/1KPyj24 )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i didn't know they expel ru kids for that
asciilifeform: yudkowsky is an american
asciilifeform: fella has interesting bio, he's an escapee from, iirc, hassidic jews
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390867 << no, i mean moving all stuff downsteream to depend on a' rather than a. this is rebasing the stuff downstream : from a base in a to a base in a'.
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 07:13:19; ben_vulpes: punkman: by my read 'rebase' as mircea_popescu uses it means 'dump into the v tree'
mircea_popescu: american or actual hasids ?
asciilifeform: afaik - actual, but living in usa
mircea_popescu: there is no such thing.
asciilifeform: then i have nfi, i simply do not know enough about subj
mircea_popescu: and for the record : ACTUAL hasidic jews, as found strictly beyond the pale, were some of the more pleasant folk you coulde ever meet, and greatly informs my tolerance of jews, as well as the tolerance of everyone who's not born past the stupid women line in western europe.
asciilifeform: presumably his father being a physicist of some kind, in the secular world, would suggest 'damaged' hassid
mircea_popescu: meanwhile the american hasids are a sort of jehova's witnesses in a slightly altered color scheme
mircea_popescu: ((the stupid women line in western europe is sometimes called the Hajnal line)
asciilifeform never saw this before, but it makes mega-sense
asciilifeform: the orc-human border !
mircea_popescu: there's absolutely nothing human about the sandvaginated saltmarshes.
asciilifeform: term of art
mircea_popescu: not in my art.
asciilifeform: from pelevin's yarn, where the precisely 'sandvaginated' folk living in antigravity sphere called themselves 'human' and, derisively, the still healthy folk below on the ground, 'orcs'
mircea_popescu: i follow the palaiologos tradition. whereby the orcs are a slightly more complex thing.
mircea_popescu: by and large, "people who do not feel comfortable living inside the wall".
mircea_popescu: or, "people with no indoor voice".
asciilifeform: ^ this also.
mircea_popescu: or, "people whose main impulse when confronted with an excuisite jeweled item is to rip out the jewels"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 98235 @ 0.00055449 = 54.4703 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390980 << i remember asking for this some time last year
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 14:27:50; mircea_popescu: and thinking about it on the way from bed to machine, because this idea woke me up : it seems deedbot and the ml management really should be merged. any conceivable reason patches can't be submitted via deedbot's mechanism ? not necessarily to remove the email feeding, but as an add-on ?
asciilifeform: but the things-to-be-done are many, and the hands - few
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha quite possibly. you keep trying to bite corcoduse.
mircea_popescu: do you know what corcoduse are ?
asciilifeform: something like a quince ?
mircea_popescu: nah, they're the fruits of a plum-like wild plum tree, grows everywhere the hasids go
mircea_popescu: pretty sure it was in odessa too. kids tend to eat them - sour stuff, makes them sick.
mircea_popescu: and re saltmarshes, the cannonical line being of course "Die Schweden die haben verflucht schlechtes Geld, wer weiß ob der Oestreicher besseres hält."
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform do you know 'em ?
asciilifeform: the fruit? only from grandfather's botanical book
asciilifeform: but i get the idea
mircea_popescu: aha. well the idea is - eaten too soon! :D
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390865 << i actually never saw this. wtf is this ?
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 07:12:20; ben_vulpes: "gpg: WARNING: not a detached signature; file `buildroot-2015.05.tar.gz' was NOT verified!"?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45500 @ 0.00055671 = 25.3303 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390875 << i'd be surprised if you actually can ever find this.
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 07:14:35; *: ben_vulpes goes digging through the gui for "never ever fucking toss my scrollback option"
mircea_popescu: the item figures prominently in my own mental list of nonsense ; that list is an essential part of why alf's raging against computing makes sense to me.
mircea_popescu: "seriously, you can't repeat what you said to me ? slaves get caned for this!" "but but but mp, it is a computer, it can't save an infinity of stuff" "WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU MAKING A MACHINE SAY INFINITY OF STUFF TO ME" "well it's not really infinite, just..." "bring the cane"
assbot: Loper OS » Seven Laws of Sane Personal Computing ... ( http://bit.ly/1Tv5aAr )
mircea_popescu: fundamental problem in the design of systems, too.
mircea_popescu: which understanding is why i'm so lisp friendly, actually.
mircea_popescu: the derps making osen treat the scrollback as a wholly separate, contextual-less buffer. it's not "what we just said to this guy"
mircea_popescu: and similarly no program replay and for the same reason etc.
mircea_popescu: a large stack of various items all designed to talk into the void. how is this a computer ?
mircea_popescu: it's just a bile of bullhorns.
mircea_popescu: computing gets to grow a fucking indoor voice and progress out of orcdom.
asciilifeform: pile of jewls jewl-rippers tore from their mounts, as was their impulse.
mircea_popescu: s/bile/pile/ s/gets/gots/
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390901 << i think this is by now well agreed upon :)
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 07:27:47; punkman: why I kept saying that I don't like release patches that touch *everything*
asciilifeform: it is actually quite feasible to have a patch that 'touches everything' but is visually inspectable in three minutes - e.g., mod6's proposed 'release patch' that merely tacks a comment to the top of every file.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390907 << a) variety of implementation is considered good for security ; b) community of usage should be user driven not developer driven (or GOD FORBID) design mandated.
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 07:35:23; ben_vulpes: is everyone who hacks on this thing to write and use their own vtronic cockpit controls? or is the production of /a/ vtron usable in other contexts a goal?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the difference lies in the meaning of "touch"
asciilifeform: as for the multitude of vtrons, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, but i am seeing folks suffer from easily-curable issues that were not present in my original prototype (which, recall, had NO state other than patch/seal/keys working set, and did not use the net, and had the 'origin' command, etc.)
asciilifeform: on the other hand i didn't have the graph, or sane parallel leaf handling.
mircea_popescu: check it out, we recreated history!
asciilifeform: 'let thousand flowers bloom'
mircea_popescu: ontogenesis follows filogenesis!
asciilifeform once wrote 'oncogenesis follows philogenesis', but prof did not notice, did not collapse laughing
mircea_popescu: the thing with being a teacher is that it trains you to neglect so much lols.
mircea_popescu: you can't sit there all day laughing your ass off at the endless parade of idjits
mircea_popescu: you'd form a bose-lolstein condensated milk curd or something.
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 14:46:32; asciilifeform: 'who has been in the army, does not laugh in the circus' (tm) (r) (su)
mircea_popescu: he who has been a teacher will not be amused at the zoo.
mircea_popescu: im telling you - cunts run on perl
mircea_popescu: the stuff women spawn into this world is simply out of this world in its broken, surprisingly counterfunctional variety
mircea_popescu: "crooked timber" puts it too lightly by about two biological regnums.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390908 << mno. the idea is that "code usable by other people" is nonsense. instead - write code well, that SHOULD be usable, and if it isn't usable the people can be fixed.
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 07:36:07; ben_vulpes: this is probably a purposes and causes thing, huh. avoid working towards the purpose of usable software for other people, and proceed from the cause of "hell is other people's code"...
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390931 <<< how would this work, i don't follow ? you plan to host a farm of various arches etc, and run automated build and test scripts on it with each release ? patch ?
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 08:05:44; punkman: I'd help rig it up if the foundation so wishes
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390950 << more complicated than that. all in good time, except the boys keep getting excited and outrunning the horses!
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 09:26:17; diana_coman: thanks ben_vulpes , I'll have a look; it's been ages since I last wrote anything in Scheme as such, but if there's a chance of moving the client away from cpp it's certainly worth having a look at
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390962 << it is ; it also pulls a ton of miserable dependencies (graphics!)
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 11:07:31; jurov: ben_vulpes: eulora code is several levels more crooked than satoshi's, i tried to ffi python and left that for later in disgust.
mircea_popescu: "The ?little guy? now possesses a large amount of anger about the political system that doesn't work for him, which shouldn?t be surprising since he repeatedly voted against his own interests during the republican tenure. " <<< aaaahahahaha.
mircea_popescu: check it out - socialists agree it's the victim's fault!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21782 @ 0.00055672 = 12.1265 BTC [+]
assbot: Note on the block size limit | Particulars ... ( http://bit.ly/1RTYex2 )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for some reason none of the 'not terrible' folk express the thing in correct terms, which is that tx is a ~cost~ to other people who run nodes
asciilifeform: the node capacity is just presumed, somehow, to drop from the sky, like 'obamaphone'
mircea_popescu: i don't think many people actually understand how bitcoin works.
asciilifeform: bbbut this is basic
mircea_popescu: the obvious parts especially
mircea_popescu: because the thing is so complicated it encourages people to approach it through narratives rather than observation
mircea_popescu: and the problem with narratives is the same problem train tracks have : 20 miles away from the track is much further than 200 miles DOWN the track
assbot: Logged on 30-01-2016 16:29:32; mircea_popescu: it's fucking ridiculous. the current cost of 14.7kb is something like
mircea_popescu: i know, that's why i put that sort of stuff in. help the thinking hats.
mircea_popescu: anyway, it's miserable design while at it. seriously, X pays Y for his imposition upon Z ?
asciilifeform: and if we calculate the ~long-term~ cost for me of storing 14kB, not only the disk, but the mains current, migrating from disk to disk, parity checks nightly, etc. - this is a pretty penny
mircea_popescu: but this was also discussed variously and from multiple angles.
asciilifeform: esp. since i gotta keep storing it for so long as i care to have any dealing with bitcoin
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform technically, you don't get to factor back-ups, because the chain itself is its best backup.
asciilifeform: a backup that is not under my control is not a backup at all.
asciilifeform: can call it something else, it is useful, aha, but NOT backup.
mircea_popescu: right but you see what i mean.
asciilifeform: miserable design, like carnot engine is miserable, but it is quite unclear that a less-miserable alternative physically is possible
mircea_popescu: no argument.
asciilifeform: but yes, it fundamentally it violates the principle i stated here as 'nobody gets anything just for showing up, or the flies eat the meat' (see the bastard blocks thread, and the single-packet authentication as elixir against ddos threads)
asciilifeform: which is why i predict that bitcoin is condemned to migrate behind the very tall fortress walls of something like gossipd
asciilifeform: where indeed nobody gets value for showing up and being a fly
mircea_popescu: research went into this in the deep, dank cellars of my dirigible. there's a lot of the original rock involved. it may even not be wrong design, horror of horrors.
mircea_popescu: anyway. this is a poorly understood point as of yet at all levels - the clergy and the populace.
asciilifeform: (which it)
mircea_popescu: the whole node conundrum
asciilifeform: it is a working design IF placed behind walls.
mircea_popescu: understand something re that principle of yours : money is fundamentally a community function.
mircea_popescu: there is no objective money.
asciilifeform: if exposed to flies - quite wrong.
asciilifeform: right now there are simply insufficient flies, and their proboscis - insufficiently sharp and long, to make this point properly felt.
mircea_popescu: this is also true.
mircea_popescu: but the point does stand, that gold on mars is not gold but just a metal.
asciilifeform: money is a community thing, aha. but recall that in ancient times peasants lived and died for generations without, in many cases, ever touching money
asciilifeform: just like today most folks die without touching electron microscope.
asciilifeform: and what's the 'original rock' ?
assbot: #bitcoin-assets +m on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1NJywUs )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform original rock in construction is when you encounter stuff that's baseline and can't be dug into. in v-programming, when you've dug your way all the way to the genesis.
asciilifeform: ^ the highlighty thing never worked on any browser i could find, ftr
asciilifeform: aha, i don't firefox
asciilifeform: possibly works there ?
mircea_popescu: takes me straight to "The #bitcoin-assets aristocracy is not incompetent. Whether in anyone's estimation others not named are just as or even more competent is immaterial : arbitrariety is not the problem, incompetence is."
asciilifeform: also reminds me of the 'buluceala' article
asciilifeform: !s buluceala
assbot: 2 results for 'buluceala' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=buluceala
mircea_popescu: weird, works in pretty much all of 'em ;/
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway, re the community thing.
asciilifeform: 'So, are you whiter than him or darker than him ? If whiter, you go before him, if darker after him. Problem of "who goes first" solved, and inasmuch as it's an irrelevant problem anyway, it doesn't matter how it's solved just as long as it's solved. The Arabs implement this exact solution, which is why I never saw buluceala in their very popular mosques. The Romanians do not implement it, or anything else, and as such bulucea
asciilifeform: la is their way of life and they wonder why nothing can ever get done because all available time and any available resources get wasted in an effort to sort a group. (The Italians are the exact same way, by the way, and from what I hear the Greeks idem.)' << from mircea_popescutron
mircea_popescu: community doesn't mean "everyone". nor does it mean "people you'd expect". a guy's harem is not composed of all the women that exist, or all the women he ran into. nvertheless, it works just fine.
asciilifeform: there is this notion, probably rooted in very fundamental christian 'inner light' poison, that the excluding group has the burden of explaining to rando derp who asks 'but why not me!?'
mircea_popescu: no such thing.
mircea_popescu: woman that wants to know why she's not in the harem needs only ask herself.
asciilifeform: not in ~a~ harem
asciilifeform: but there is not necessarily a reason why she is not in ~the particular~ harem, and it is not the duty of that harem keeper to provide a logical 'reason'
mircea_popescu: well i said the not a. woman who wants to know why she isn't in any particular one ~need only ask herself~.
asciilifeform: then yes
mircea_popescu: "what did i do to be in ?" "how did it fail ?" "how did i fix it ?" "how did it fail still ?" "how did i fix that ?"
mircea_popescu: either she keeps going, in which case she's not in the harem yet, or else gives up, in which case there's the answer.
mircea_popescu: "oh but what of equality!" "the only thing equal to all its downstream is 0".
mircea_popescu: which is kinda why both nullities are so fascinated with theoretical socialism and why practical implementations of socialism amount to such resplendent nothing.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mod6 https://7chan.org/pr/src/The_Little_Schemer_4th_2.pdf << a real joy of a b00k, i taught a gurl scheme once from it
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ^ l333337 w4r3z!11111
asciilifeform: socratic method.
asciilifeform: there is a sequel, just as riotously fun, 'the seasoned schemer.'
asciilifeform: you start out like a child, end up getting through lambda calculus, combinators
mod6: time to answer some questions
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 95250 @ 0.00055295 = 52.6685 BTC [-] {6}
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> yo mod6 what does it mean in perl to do my $var = "string" . \n "otherstring" is the period a linebreak escape in perl, and the variable implicitly a concatenation of the two strings << where do you see this? this is not a thing. that would fail to compile/pass-interpreter-smell-test.
phf: mircea_popescu: hey trinque jurov phf : would it be possible to take that very nice graph phf showed, turn it into a proper svg and have the nodes clickable ? << like http://104.131.72.249/patches/? (is in no way bulletproof, so i expect it to be down by the time i come back from breakfast)
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> "gpg: WARNING: not a detached signature; file `buildroot-2015.05.tar.gz' was NOT verified!"? << i've just run this again myselfand logged output here: http://dpaste.com/0P2QXYG.txt I'm not sure how what you saw happened there. :/
trinque: mod6: ah yep, I saw that doing the makefiles
trinque: the signed file is actually a signed textfile of the hash of the thing
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> unrelatedly, while we're ripping the rug out from under mod6, is there a good reason to continue with the inconsistent directory structure of `./.seals' and `./patches'? << this was in alf's original POC. i think it can stay. especially because you *can* name the dirs whatever you wish.
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> ;;later tell mod6 i got v.pl into a weird place where it didn't clean up its gnupg tempdir. perhaps consider using an "exit_gracefully" function where you're currently simply "die"-ing. << this basically /shouldn't/ happen. i'll follow your steps here and try to see what went wrong.
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> ;;later tell mod6 stick a random file with .html suffix in the patches dir to reproduce the stale gnupg dir big << this is what I'll test with.
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> ;;later tell mod6 i believe i have a bug for you: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/8d9ad794-4b47-407e-9db4-a9a8cb2c70b4/ << lol, what did you do to this poor thing!
mod6: <+asciilifeform> ;;later tell mod6 https://7chan.org/pr/src/The_Little_Schemer_4th_2.pdf << a real joy of a b00k, i taught a gurl scheme once from it << hey thanks!
trinque: nice, I taught a girl with that one too, then graduated her to SICP
asciilifeform: soo i have a result
asciilifeform: but also a dilemma
asciilifeform: mod6 et al:
mod6: <+trinque> mod6: ah yep, I saw that doing the makefiles << umm.. thats bad. because that means it doens't happen to me, but apparently it happens "in the field" from time to time?
asciilifeform: i fixed the very subtle version number setting bug
asciilifeform: but i do not know how to issue the patch
asciilifeform: it can be one of two kinds:
asciilifeform: 1) works with shiva-less main trunk
asciilifeform: 2) applied to shiva branch.
asciilifeform: 3) can issue both.
asciilifeform: 4) can let somebody else do it
asciilifeform: what'll it be
mod6: 1
mod6: or 3
asciilifeform: ok gimme 10min or so then.
mod6: something in shiva breaks it up eh?
asciilifeform: not exactly
asciilifeform: just that it touches same files.
mod6: ok no rush here.
mod6: take your time.
mod6: trinque: thanks for deedbotting
mod6: looks good. matches mine exactly.
mod6: danielpbarron: hey there Sir, wanna update the wiki & test the steps from a newb standpoint when you get a moment? Y^
mod6: s/Y//
mod6: ben_vulpes: thanks for testing V. i appreciate that.
mod6: testing really helps at any time, but especially ~before~ we bundle up and release
mod6: so if you see activity in that direction, ask for a test bundle or test code, whatever. good to catch any things like this before I send itout.
mod6: furthermore ...
mod6: <+mod6> <+ben_vulpes> "gpg: WARNING: not a detached signature; file `buildroot-2015.05.tar.gz' was NOT verified!"? << i've just run this again myselfand logged output here: http://dpaste.com/0P2QXYG.txt I'm not sure how what you saw happened there. :/ << im wondering if this could be related to a GPG version thing or something? because the line of code that is executed here is this:
mod6: gpg --verify buildroot-2015.05.tar.gz.sign
asciilifeform: mod6: is malleus in the trunk ?
asciilifeform: i need to know what set to make
asciilifeform: in order to issue the verstring fix
assbot: Index of /v/patches ... ( http://bit.ly/1RU4eWQ )
asciilifeform: FOR FUCK'S SAKE
asciilifeform: turdatron ate my patch AGAIN
asciilifeform: jurov ???
mod6: did you see my comments from yesterday about your re-bake?
asciilifeform: which ?
mod6: ben_vulpes: ok, yeah, you through something into patches that it didn't die gracefully on: http://dpaste.com/1GJP2X4.txt
mod6: this will have to be fixed for next time.
mod6: and next time, let's do this sort of testing before i ship
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38000 @ 0.0005514 = 20.9532 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: my patience with turdatron is at an end.
asciilifeform: at this point i don't give a FUCK why it failed.
phf: asciilifeform: so that new version replaces old patch?
phf: addition?
asciilifeform: it is a patch to mod6's press head.
asciilifeform: as requested.
mircea_popescu: phf pretty much yeah.
asciilifeform: i will no longer use the ml to submit patches.
asciilifeform: it is infuriatingly broken.
phf: asciilifeform: dropped your patch into the graph thingy, http://104.131.72.249/patches/ is doing right thing
asciilifeform: BECAUSE IT IS RIGHT
asciilifeform: and turdatron is a turd
assbot: Logged on 30-01-2016 22:21:25; mod6: and speaking of which, i'd also like to note that all of the sigs (seals) in http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2016-January/000201.html are misnamed. http://dpaste.com/1KRXSBM.txt
asciilifeform: mod6: what prevents you from renaming them ?
asciilifeform: it won't alter the hash
mod6: nothing, i did this.
phf: mircea_popescu: nodes are clickable
asciilifeform: ty mod6
mircea_popescu: <mod6> or 3 << asciilifeform 3
mod6: thats how i tested and built the stuff yesterday at phf's behest.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: which 3
mircea_popescu: "which'll it be"
mircea_popescu: think of it as a poem.
assbot: asciilifeform-programmable-versionstring-fix ... ( http://bit.ly/1WVdJ7n )
asciilifeform: phf: very, very spiffy
mircea_popescu: phf very nice and good.
mod6: asciilifeform: what was interesting on these ones is that not only idn't they contain *.vpatch.asciilifeform.sig -- they were: *.vpatch.asc
mircea_popescu: by now alf no longer really wants the book
mircea_popescu: because what he really wanted was ths svg (not the PDF!!!) of a book
mircea_popescu: well really the ast, but whatevs.
asciilifeform: l0lz wake up up when i can see the actual src in this thing
mircea_popescu: trivial bolt-on.
asciilifeform: but really wake me up when it knows how to eat patchballs from www or ftp etc
asciilifeform: because turdatron delenda est.
mircea_popescu: which leads me to the following : it's not JUST patches that should be "thematically grouped".
mircea_popescu: the whole fucking program is supposed to be written as a tree not as a fucking scroll
asciilifeform: i am SICK AND MOTHERFUCKING TIRED of 'your line is 1 char too long fuckyou'
mircea_popescu: which is what "functions" as originally hacked into fortran/basic were supposed to do
mircea_popescu: excepot from a braindamaged locus of "who could need more than one node level"
asciilifeform: dijkstra, 'structured programming'
mircea_popescu: i had the silent intuition that there'd be a second gate in between the code and the "war of comments" outer gate discussed in thr logs last week. there is! this!
mircea_popescu: proper fucking structure.
mircea_popescu: truth is defended in this order by a) structure and b) text&context.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391302 <<< dawg simmer down, it's not like jurov wrote it with the express purpose of aggravating you.
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 18:31:17; asciilifeform: BURNNN
asciilifeform: incidenally,
asciilifeform: mod6 et al: seems like my verstring patch works with ALL branches
asciilifeform: (shiva and ordinary)
asciilifeform: so the readme is a lie.
asciilifeform: (verstring ~fix~ that is)
asciilifeform: no conflict.
mircea_popescu: wouldn't it be best to test before documenting a feature ? :D
assbot: asciilifeform-programmable-versionstring-fix ... ( http://bit.ly/1WVdJ7n )
mircea_popescu: phf can you also add the text on a futher link ? [code] ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: jurov is not to blame, the original design tip was actually mine
asciilifeform: but turdatron is not usable.
asciilifeform: it refused my latest patch with no logical reason i can discern
mircea_popescu: well as the great robbie williams one said, "at least now we know"
mod6: hey uh...
mod6: ok unpacked ur tarball. verified the sigs.
mircea_popescu: anyway, irc bot based submission is much better because bot can provide error response
mircea_popescu: trinque and ftr that error message should be "fuck you alf" by default.
mircea_popescu: every time it runs into something it doesn't know what to say about
asciilifeform: l0ltr0n
mod6: this patch just comes after the original
mod6: --- a/bitcoin/src/serialize.h 3b61e200efe4b17a7f5384e13ab2a1a5e0a74fce0a097802d5e32bb5d74f88fa6e018f56c36ca9198d726a3a78168f87a6181d498cb7a388bc1f3adefa7cd93f
mod6: +++ b/bitcoin/src/serialize.h ef93153b01fdf024a0ab2ce0f992ea9af50d3423baa147c395bba4cc90575bda0d832c0313428bbbc837c99d549c4ba787b94fad5b871870397a410ba59ea0e9
mod6: --- a/bitcoin/src/main.cpp 02ccc72e42939509fc180861db7ffec50563a84869f35671fcf720090f9782674edcc89c4174175691566fac7277f1ebe0f50253d1e4a995eb960f5b43cce2a3
mod6: +++ b/bitcoin/src/main.cpp 0ccb0c29c0a3217d57f9bc72d87b497e64116a9f79e69277408750ee3dc95738ce52a70afece7a1054314100d84f93f6525ab514b8abd8ce78ab8ebd50e599a2
asciilifeform: mod6: does this break something ?
mod6: --- a/bitcoin/src/main.cpp 02ccc72e42939509fc180861db7ffec50563a84869f35671fcf720090f9782674edcc89c4174175691566fac7277f1ebe0f50253d1e4a995eb960f5b43cce2a3
mod6: +++ b/bitcoin/src/main.cpp 0ccb0c29c0a3217d57f9bc72d87b497e64116a9f79e69277408750ee3dc95738ce52a70afece7a1054314100d84f93f6525ab514b8abd8ce78ab8ebd50e599a2
mod6: damnit
asciilifeform: it sits down happily in my tree
assbot: asciilifeform-programmable-versionstring-fix ... ( http://bit.ly/1WVdJ7n )
mod6: ignore those last two, this from serialize.h
mod6: diff -uNr a/bitcoin/src/serialize.h b/bitcoin/src/serialize.h
mod6: --- a/bitcoin/src/serialize.h bc602bfbc512259fbb6c01f2c1633ff142966bf0752612e9a488cee8a95da7921b98abe646e2f7002243f1981939372e0b53948646398e40525ed442c377f449
mod6: +++ b/bitcoin/src/serialize.h 3b61e200efe4b17a7f5384e13ab2a1a5e0a74fce0a097802d5e32bb5d74f88fa6e018f56c36ca9198d726a3a78168f87a6181d498cb7a388bc1f3adefa7cd93f
mod6: your patch should have antecedent: bc602bfbc512259fbb6c01f2c1633ff142966bf0752612e9a488cee8a95da7921b98abe646e2f7002243f1981939372e0b53948646398e40525ed442c377f449
phf: mircea_popescu: touched signatures?
mod6: not 3b61e200efe4b17a7f5384e13ab2a1a5e0a74fce0a097802d5e32bb5d74f88fa6e018f56c36ca9198d726a3a78168f87a6181d498cb7a388bc1f3adefa7cd93f
deedbot-: [Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski] What the rebooted DeLorean can learn from Singer, Pagani, and Bitcoin. - http://www.contravex.com/2016/01/31/what-the-rebooted-delorean-can-learn-from-singer-pagani-and-bitcoin/
mircea_popescu: phf yes, the list of all signatures seen to reach that leaf.
asciilifeform: mod6: from where comes this antecedent ?
mod6: ok, anyway.. lemme take a look at this.
mod6: so what i want to do
mircea_popescu: !rated phf
assbot: You rated user phf on 24-Jun-2015, with a rating of 2, and supplied these additional notes: Fixed our boxen!.
punkman: mircea_popescu: phf yes, the list of all signatures seen to reach that leaf. << that would just return "asciilifeform" :P
mircea_popescu: punkman no because it has genesis in there.
mod6: start without this patch : asciilifeform_malleus_mikehearnificarum.vpatchasciilifeform-programmable-versionstring.vpatch, or th mod6_der_high_low_s.vpatch
mircea_popescu: ~all~ signatures seen to reach that leaf.
asciilifeform: aha, buncha people signed genesis
asciilifeform: ideally, everybody
asciilifeform: (in the orchestra, that is)
mod6: then recode all this stuff.
mod6: just imagine that they don't exist, now we need to reimplement those changes.
mod6: should I do mine first? then you can make your changes.
asciilifeform: mod6: i am utterly confused now ?
phf: oh oh people signatures, yes
mod6: i wanted a whole replacement for asciilifeform-programmable-versionstring.vpatch, not just the fix.
mircea_popescu: phf actually asciilifeform has a point : two signature lists are needed. complete and dependent. C = all signatures seen on any of the packages pressed ; D = the set of all signatures on which the current press depends - ie, without them you can't reach that leaf.
asciilifeform: replacement?! whyt?!!!
mircea_popescu: lemme formalize this.
mod6: i'll fix all of this stuff.
mod6: i'll be afk for a bit.
mircea_popescu: A signed by a b c d ; B off A, signed by a, c, d. D off A, signed by a, d. C off D signed by d.
asciilifeform: mod6: if you want to backport the patch and the afterpatch, etc. i will read and sign the result.
asciilifeform: but imho this is unnecessary sweat.
mircea_popescu: the first list for C is a b c d whereas the 2nd list for C is D.
asciilifeform: whole point of v is to avoid having to pretend that symphony was farted out in one perfect go.
asciilifeform: we can live with the history !
asciilifeform: manually re-grinding everything every fucking time somebody finds a bug, is scutwork, and the time could be used to do something useful.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile the first list for B is a b c d whereas the 2nd list for B is (a) ; (c) ; (d) ie 3 lists.
asciilifeform: this is my official take on the question, which obviously nobody has to listen to.
asciilifeform: but there it is.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i'd say it's a degree question. if a hole found close to the surface, supuration is advised. if not, let blood carry the germs out. just like the body treats infection.
mircea_popescu: sure, people may maintain sparkly-clean trees for whatever reason anyway. but in general as to the "main" tree, best avoid both horns of the dilemma and tryt and sit in the middle.
asciilifeform: anyway if somebody insists on tamping versionstring and versionstring-fix into one path, i will read and sign it.
asciilifeform: but right now i'ma go to meatspace and won't be back until nightfall.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58050 @ 0.00055672 = 32.3176 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: phf does this make any sense whatsoever ?
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 18:34:13; mod6: and next time, let's do this sort of testing before i ship
phf: mircea_popescu: is that a list of names that correspond to .wot? i.e. each patch has (asciilifeform, mod6, etc.) and then there's a set of all wots for current press?
mircea_popescu: basically i seek to answer two questions, from a management point of view.
mircea_popescu: question 1 is : who are all the people who contributed to this ?
mircea_popescu: question 2 is : who are all the people on whose word i am implicitly depending by building this ?
mircea_popescu: so by building B in the example i am in the situation where i know a and c and d must ALL lie.
mircea_popescu: whereas by building D i am in the situation where i know it's enough for d to lie.
mircea_popescu: (this approach probably makes the ancient "group is the enemy of intelligent life" / "only threat to wot model is agreement" etc painfully obvious - if a, c and d are a compact i'll just note them epsilon and pretend it's one thing)
phf: ah that gives you ability to press purely from wot knowledge, without reading the patch
mircea_popescu: must know who to thank and who to hunt down. that's what management is.
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390963 << look into clasp then, i'd just started digging into it when asciilifeform released shiva
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 11:10:04; jurov: that aside, there are completely different set of requirements, like, easy debugging. if lisp, then rather something with slime and good library bundled.
ben_vulpes: it nominally offers a lot over standard cl cffi, but i have not verified that myself.
mircea_popescu: it is also the fundamental instrument by which intelligent people are to assure their subsistence. because yea, naggum had a very good point with the http://www.loper-os.org/?p=165
assbot: Loper OS » The Wisdom of Erik Naggum ... ( http://bit.ly/1QQJGgA )
ben_vulpes: has the unexpected advantage of making alf barf
mircea_popescu: but the problem per se wasn't the end he approached, but the other end.
mircea_popescu: and if we fix the other end, we actually fix this problem.
mircea_popescu: and even without the economic consideration, from a purely intellectual perspective. what is this inhuman, anti-intellectual "the bitcoin developers" bs ? we're not living in the village of pythagora over here, and we don't expect "anonymity" to stand in for sovereignity like five years old. gimme the motherfucking list.
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell pete_dushenski another translation challenger appears: http://trilema.com/2010/inca-o-pozitie-sexuala/
assbot: Inca o pozitie sexuala on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1QQKamU )
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: i came back to console because i realized that mircea_popescu was making a VITAL point that is in danger of being glossed over
asciilifeform: does anyone recall how my original vtron only showed linear flow ?
asciilifeform: and why i thought this to be sufficient ?
ben_vulpes does not nod
asciilifeform: it is because, in my original concept, the main knob that is to be twiddled by the operator is not the press head,
mircea_popescu: o wb alfie
asciilifeform: BUT THE WOT
asciilifeform: the wot!
asciilifeform: you vary the vot.
mircea_popescu: oh god, the wot!
ben_vulpes: wot wot
ben_vulpes: my wot, mon trezor!
mircea_popescu: who said "the iron! my god, the iron!"
asciilifeform: vtron, in primary mode of operation, is to climb the tree, as high as it can on each branch, operating using the current wotset
ben_vulpes: reheheally?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform still, this is the "orig" for that.
asciilifeform: this automagically gives you 'mod6 & ben_vulpes release', or 'what mircea_popescu is willing to use', or ' asciilifeform's bleeding razor'
ben_vulpes: because i want to press "shiva" into a tree that doesn't have, say, malleus_mikehearnificarum
asciilifeform: you just use different wotsets.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: that's when you bring out the press depth knob. OR alternatively sign the ones you want! and then press using a wot that contains only ben_vulpes
mircea_popescu: anyway, notice the fractal beauty of the world : list 1 is really "the wot" ; list 2 is necessarily the lordship list. and by its very nature ... you can or can not chose various different lordships depending on what it is you're trying to do.
asciilifeform: see, there are multiple ways to go about it
mircea_popescu: EXACTLY like how it worked back whne it worked.
asciilifeform: aha. mircea_popescu has it.
mircea_popescu: it's this sort of "doesn't repeat but rhymes" beauty that makes me thing we're really singing spheres music here.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: clasp is one of those 'lisps without eval' isnnit.
asciilifeform: there are good examples of this kind of thing, from the past, see 'chicken' and 'stalin'
asciilifeform: but it is pretty much the opposite of what we want here.
assbot: Stalin</title><base href="http://community.schemewiki.org/"><link rel="alternate" type="application/rss+xml" title="RSS" href="/?c=rss"><link rel="stylesheet" href="/css/default.css" type="text/css"></head><body><h1 id="title"><div><a href="/?c=s&key=[[Stalin]]">Stalin</a></div></h1><div id="na ... ( http://bit.ly/1WVhvh2 )
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i believe clasp is a standards-compliant commonlisp
ben_vulpes: if you have information to the contrary...
asciilifeform: claims to 'compile to cpp' doesn't it ?
ben_vulpes: nooo, llvm bytecode.
ben_vulpes: has 'really great cpp interop'
mircea_popescu: lol this is a promising thread.
ben_vulpes can hear the retching from here
phf: asciilifeform: original conception requires "sufficiently smart patch" then, unless i'm missing something
asciilifeform: phf: it does not. worked as shown.
asciilifeform: phf: see my original vtron.
phf: oh, if you remove joe from wot, v finds an alternative path
asciilifeform: the highest climb that has no joe.
asciilifeform: to specified level.
adlai: ben_vulpes: "standards-compliant" lol.
adlai: if "standards" is plural, it's already noncompliant
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391028 << i wonder what 'not making the cut' looks like these days. not willing to burn ones youth on the pyre of tenure-track whoring?
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 15:24:32; asciilifeform: y suffered from delusions of physics - he was 'raised for physics' by his father, but didn't make the cut, and never lived it down
asciilifeform: find clasp-master/src -name '*' | xargs wc -l
asciilifeform: 1169705
asciilifeform: go, read.
asciilifeform: happy shithuntin'.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: this is for a motherfucking crystalspace project
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: mno. in yudkowsky's case, it meant being kicked out of high school.
ben_vulpes: adlai: i don't know shit, frere, i just drag in dead birds for the adults to dispose of.
mircea_popescu: <adlai> if "standards" is plural, it's already noncompliant <<< for the record, the reason the enemy uses the plural there isn't that the enemy is this stupid, but that it believes in patchwork. ie, standards : one for this, one for that, together they make up a complete thing.
mircea_popescu: sort of freehand wot if you will
phf: clasp is very much anti-ba, there's no question about it, pulls a lot of projects together, of questionable pedigree
adlai: "anti-ba"!?
asciilifeform: including llvm
adlai: clasp is an answer to a specific problem which nobody here has... it's equally anti-pythagoras
asciilifeform: (the 'llvm is satanic and must die' thing is not as clear-cut as i would like, it is actually MORE readable and hackable than gcc. but i'm allergic, i confess.)
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes you know what "not making the cut" is wqith a woman ? even if you're a saudi prince and your daddy buys her for you ; even if you're an afghan monkey and she deeply believes she has to. there's a point where you make the cut or don't, and that's what it is.
mircea_popescu: physics is a well known whore. behaves the exact same way.
mircea_popescu: do her insides answer to you or don't they.
adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391465 << afaik, clasp will be superior to other lisps only if the bulk of your friction is at the interface itself. specifically, it does NOT have the same level of slime support you'd find in the mature lisp (sbcl and ccl)
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 19:07:51; ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390963 << look into clasp then, i'd just started digging into it when asciilifeform released shiva
asciilifeform: adlai: and here i picked a lisp with 0 slime support
adlai: "lisp"
phf: adlai: clasp is a good fit for tendriling trb, if i had more time, i'd use it in a similar way to shiva. but then i'm already building trb on llvm/clang, etc. it is anti-ba though because of pedigree and ownership problem. can use it, if you have resources to read through 5 or so 100k loc projects
ben_vulpes: FIGHT
asciilifeform: 'scheme is the good half of cl'
mircea_popescu: phf 12 100k loc projects, turns out.
mircea_popescu: and i fear nobody does nor could anyone have such resources.
adlai: modern CL (as opposed to the ANSI doorstop) is a tool that evolved from a standard. r5rs is a standard. tinyscheme is a tool. etc etc... vita brevis, but there are at least a couple usable artes
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391553 << hilariously, this is part of what i do for a living now.
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 19:29:40; mircea_popescu: and i fear nobody does nor could anyone have such resources.
asciilifeform: mega-bezzlatron ~does~ have resources.
mircea_popescu: to no significant eventual effect.
asciilifeform: can't disagree!
mircea_popescu: so then ... it doesn't.
asciilifeform: (pretty sure it all stokes the furnace at the end of the day)
asciilifeform: hey, having resources and having the brains to not stoke the furnace with'em are different things
mircea_popescu: as the linecount you're digesting increases you don't need more people. you need smarter ones. it's not like if you need one brick carried you hire one lout and ifg you need 10000 you hire 10000. it's like if you want 1kg carried you can use a dog, and if you need 10 tons you gotta learn to speak whale now.
asciilifeform: well yes
asciilifeform: there are no louts there, reading code.
asciilifeform: just me.
mircea_popescu: well so then. i don't want 10x as many people that can jump 1m. i want people who can jump 10m now.
asciilifeform: 10 tons.
adlai: phf: also, afaict, clasp is designed for manipulating existing C++ libraries with your own tendrils, rather than tendriling an existing turdatron. tinyscheme is designed for the latter.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'm the 'whale' that moves the 10 tonnes, there.
asciilifeform: (i don't work at '10,000 dogs' shops, as a matter of principle)
mircea_popescu: you know, if human ability were actually infinite, management wouldn't exist.
asciilifeform: it isn't infinite, but varies more than dog/whale.
mircea_popescu: definitely.
asciilifeform: more like whale/euglena.
mircea_popescu: point remains, resource needs don't scale well in this type of problem.
asciilifeform: it scales pretty well, if tmsr were an actual empire it could have a 100% mod6 and a 100% asciilifeform et al
asciilifeform: instead of ~5-10%
asciilifeform: granted this is not 10,000 dogs.
asciilifeform: but nobody ~needs~ 10,000 dogs.
phf: adlai: i don't see the difference. both require you to annotate your classes/method/data somehow. clasp requires less annotation with larger impact then tinyscheme, e.g. it knows about c++ and can do some advanced ffi-ing
asciilifeform: phf: cpp does enough munging at compile time that this whole concept is disastrously meaningless
mircea_popescu: ffi, fast fourier interfacing ?
asciilifeform: foreign function interface
asciilifeform: phf: you can't repl straight into cpp, and trying is guaranteed to bring you to grief
phf: asciilifeform: that's what clasp does
asciilifeform: embeds a cpp ~interpreter~ ?
asciilifeform: even if this were so, this breaks the language semantics.
asciilifeform: think about it.
adlai: while you may want missile guidance on board the missile, you might not want the chip fab on board as well
asciilifeform: a cpp is that is interpreted, and where magic that normally happens during compilation can happen MORE THAN ONCE, and AT RUNTIME, is guaranteed semantic-distinct from ordinary cpp.
asciilifeform: cpp is not merely braindamaged, it is a roadkill that has sat in the sun for all of july
asciilifeform: stop trying to attach life support to it.
asciilifeform: (and this is pointedly not the intent of shiva.)
adlai: my understanding is that nobody here wants to make bitcoind, the minimal concrete-sealed weaponized Bitcoin-that-Exists, able to compile a new version of itself
mircea_popescu: god help us.
asciilifeform: adlai: me.
asciilifeform: obviously not with the cpp garbage.
asciilifeform: but the mythical os.
mircea_popescu: you mean bitcoin-os
mircea_popescu: well it'd pretty damned well be able to, else how is it an os
adlai: asciilifeform: isn't shiva supposed to be an optimal point BETWEEN sentient-AGI-bitcoinOS and jsonrpc on port 8332?
asciilifeform: i can't speak for others, but 'i come to bury ' the garbage, not to praise it.'
phf: asciilifeform: while the goals are different, the mechanism is the same. you annotate classes, methods and get stable refs in your lisp instance, which shares heap with the running c++ process.
adlai: rather than some continually-shifting goalpost that asymptotically approaches whatever sentience seems least broken
mircea_popescu: phf but these adnotations are necessarily not translateable.
asciilifeform: phf: annotate laboriously, by hand, and painfully aware of the impedance mismatches
asciilifeform: rather than automatic claptrap.
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 15:28:44; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because thiel got money and no self respect.
assbot: Peter Thiel (@peterthiel) | Twitter ... ( http://bit.ly/1WVls5k )
mircea_popescu: adlai no, shiva isn't supposed to be "an optimal point". it is supposed to be a CORRECT replacement of a currently broken implementation.
mircea_popescu: and yes, both json and rpc are broken by design
asciilifeform: phf: know the stories where, in the Dark Future of Hello Kitty, man's neurons are replaced one by one with robotic ones, and he doesn't notice ?
asciilifeform: it is my intention to do this to trb.
adlai: lemme put it another way... somewhere in the ANSI spec are probably one, two, or even three ~hundred~ symbols which the weaponized bitcoind-os does not need in its guts. define-setf-expander? define-method-combination? where do you draw the line?
asciilifeform: adlai: ergo why i did not pick cl
mircea_popescu: too soon.
adlai: exactly.
adlai: ergo why the clasp horse is also unnecessary to continue flogging.
asciilifeform: also i laugh when folks take the spew of academitard 'compiler research' claptrap and try to actually use
mircea_popescu: well the other one bated him.
asciilifeform: sorta like going to a toy store to buy power tools
asciilifeform: 'hey this drill whirrs, more loudly even'
asciilifeform: let's use.
mircea_popescu: this log is moving so fast i'm actually getting contiguity issues trying to follow.
adlai: again, not trying to perscribe what's right; obviously asciilifeform understands what he's trying to do infinitely better than i can; but... i think the line is somewhere between embedding an interpreter for a subset of r5rs, and embedding a ~compiler~
asciilifeform: fortunately for mircea_popescu , now i go and pet pet and wander around.
phf: clasp is not "compiler research", is designed to scratch itch of a single person, for doing computational chemistry
adlai: happy wanderings asciilifeform
mircea_popescu: adlai there's no option to embedding a compiler in an os.
adlai: mircea_popescu: in these early days, when Bitcoin does not yet fully Exist, it seems as though everything is an option. the full shiva vision, as i understand it from recent logs, opens the door to doing exactly that, if some energetic idiot decides it's a good idea
mircea_popescu: looky : currently we have a script that pulls dependencies, checks them, and builds.
mircea_popescu: the reason alf wants a cd is because what he really wants is A BOOT CD.
adlai: i don't think it's a good idea and i'm trying to dispel the notion for others who may. i'm a little surprised at http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391599 and probably misunderstood alf.
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 19:40:36; asciilifeform: adlai: me.
mircea_popescu: nor is this eventual situation avoidable at all.
adlai was "it's"ing about "doing exactly that", not about "BOOT CD"
adlai doesn't want a CD because 4/5ths of his hardware doesn't know what CDs are... but this is back to bedrock issues
mircea_popescu: i think maybe you've formed a partial idea of what's being discussed through the age old process of having read a partial set of what's been said.
mircea_popescu: but in any case, compiling bitcoin in bitcoin is not either a goal or liable to be implemented before actually having a bitcoin-fs say.
adlai keeps reading, both logs and seals, and maybe someday will have another partial idea
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, the fact that bitcoin-os is the unavoidable end of this entire process requires things be thought out with a view to that fact.
adlai: well patches, not seals. the latter aren't particularly stimulating reading material per se
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 105484 @ 0.0005514 = 58.1639 BTC [-]
mod6: ok
mod6: so... i've integrated asciilifeform's fix into a new patch that will replace the old one: http://dpaste.com/2KCXN8A.txt
mod6: I'm going to build with this and live test it before I submit to the mailing list.
mod6: bbs.
adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391635 << this thread is also further evidence that 'satoshi' was/included a plumber rather than academic or architect
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 19:45:44; phf: clasp is not "compiler research", is designed to scratch itch of a single person, for doing computational chemistry
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 92692 @ 0.00055672 = 51.6035 BTC [+]
phf: so i added inline patch display to my patch display displayer instead http://104.131.72.249/patches/mod6_fix_dumpblock_params
assbot: mod6_fix_dumpblock_params ... ( http://bit.ly/1QQQHOC )
adlai: phf: this web-facing thing is part of your CL vtron?
phf: adlai: yes
adlai wonders at the boundedness of CL vtrons... probably nonexistent
adlai: in the same sense as "eleven rabbis, twelve opinions"
ben_vulpes: boundedness?
adlai: boundedness [of implementation diversity]
adlai: how many roads must a man walk down before he stops taking the less-trod fork
ben_vulpes: how many rickety fucking buckets of others' design must a man endure before he gets the fuck out and walks on his own feet is the question i'm endeavoring to resolve for myself
ben_vulpes: entirely unrelatedly, can anyone corroborate the story of the russians who burned a shitton of usd on camera and got the then-fed to credit some domestic account or other?
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391110 << i did, not saying that it's not lying through its teeth though: http://imgur.com/Y1tGvZC
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 15:52:04; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390875 << i'd be surprised if you actually can ever find this.
assbot: Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet ... ( http://bit.ly/1QQSFhP )
mod6: ben_vulpes: how we lookin' bud?
mod6: im gonna test this revised patch, if works, send it, then get that SoBA in ship-shape.
ben_vulpes: did you get a chance to repro the issue i ran into with asciilifeform's shiva patches?
mod6: hmm.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31800 @ 0.00055672 = 17.7037 BTC [+]
ben_vulpes: the 'rebaked' ones.
mod6: i might need a reminder. i did go through a bunch of your comments though.
ben_vulpes: !s bug for you
assbot: 17 results for 'bug for you' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=bug+for+you
mod6: oh yeah.
mod6: yeah, no clue what you did there.
mod6: i was able to press all of that out just fine.
ben_vulpes: the rebaked ones?
mod6: just had to stick his stuff into patches and .seals. but in all honesty, im not even sure if the patches & seals I'm using are what is indended at this point.
mod6: lets not worry about that for now. that thing is in its infancy.
ben_vulpes: so if i press those individually, in order, they work. but if i press the last patch, i believe that it fails to find its antecedents.
mod6: i kinda have to turn a deaf ear to a lot of this stuff until the new month starts, and even then, i gotta keep my eye on the prize - dispite any other problems on the periphery.
mod6: so ben_vulpes, understand that there is like a jumble of different things he submitted, and if the wrong ones are incorporated, it might puke.
mod6: like i said, lets just hold off on that.
mod6: it's not hurting anyone, and its not going in the release.
ben_vulpes: okeee
mod6: i can't even take the time to jump down that rabbit hole right now.
mod6: make sense?
ben_vulpes: yeah boss
mod6: ahh, and then there is this now -- when compiling with alf's fix incorporated:
mod6: so that's not the only thing that needed to change.
phf: huh so with original v design, mod6 could sign all the patches that are deemed releasable, and then all you need is mod6.asc in your wot and trb will press
phf: perhaps then trb instructions should be "download mod6.asc into ~/.wot" which is a trust starting point
phf: where's mirrors can contain any number of patches
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391245 << lines 64 and 65 of v.pl. perhaps i can't read perl?
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 17:53:21; mod6: <+ben_vulpes> yo mod6 what does it mean in perl to do my $var = "string" . \n "otherstring" is the period a linebreak escape in perl, and the variable implicitly a concatenation of the two strings << where do you see this? this is not a thing. that would fail to compile/pass-interpreter-smell-test.
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 17:53:34; phf: mircea_popescu: hey trinque jurov phf : would it be possible to take that very nice graph phf showed, turn it into a proper svg and have the nodes clickable ? << like http://104.131.72.249/patches/? (is in no way bulletproof, so i expect it to be down by the time i come back from breakfast)
mod6: lemme take a look.
mod6: what version are you looking at? perhaps my 64 & 65 are different?
mod6: oh oh
mod6: im retard
mod6: one sec.
mod6: my $import = "gpg --homedir $tdir --logger-fd 1 --keyid-format=long " .
mod6: "--import $wdir/$pubkey 2> /dev/null";
mod6: these right ^
ben_vulpes: yessir
mod6: ok so whats going on there is that to preserve 80 cols, i create a command spanning two lines
mod6: "command part A" . "command part B" and set that equal to $import
ben_vulpes: so the '.' is both a line-break escape and string concatenation?
mod6: then in the next line i do this:
mod6: my $res = `$import`;
mod6: and execute $import and set the result (output) of the command to $res
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> so the '.' is both a line-break escape and string concatenation? << its not a line break. its just a string concatenation.
ben_vulpes: well there is a line break between those two strings
mod6: notice how there is a space after '=long '
mod6: yup yup, i put a 0x0a in there just to preseve 80 cols. but perl deoesn't care nor does it add a '\n' to the command string
ben_vulpes: that's what i thought
mod6: ok.
ben_vulpes: thanks for confirming mod6
mod6: np
mod6: some of you out there who are following along will be like, "yeah, what about line 426, or 484 then!! eh!?"
mod6: well, i missed a few, need to clean those up :P
jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391302 lemme see. your beloved gmail marked README as application/octet-stream
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 18:31:17; asciilifeform: BURNNN
jurov: which caused turdatron to skip it while searching for clearsigned part
punkman: everything I've sent has been octet-stream, I think
jurov: punkman what outgoing address/alias do you use?
jurov: did you ever sent anything to ml?
punkman: pub@extemporized.com , I manually set octet-stream for all my attachments, but it's possible the crappy email-sender I use overrode it for the email body
jurov: ah i see. but you send the clearsigned part as Content-Type: text/plain
punkman: ah, ok then
jurov: (example: [BTC-dev] Some test patches and my V implementation)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 116050 @ 0.00055698 = 64.6375 BTC [+] {3}
mod6: asciilifeform: <+mod6> so... i've integrated asciilifeform's fix into a new patch that will replace the old one: http://dpaste.com/2KCXN8A.txt << <+mod6> ahh, and then there is this now -- when compiling with alf's fix incorporated: <+mod6> http://dpaste.com/1AVK5ZP.txt << any thoughts on how to fix0r this?
punkman: web-based turdatron woulda saved you a lot of debug time :/
mod6: meanwhile, im gonna work on getting this SoBA completed. :]
jurov: asciilifeform: can't you just get rid of gmail? or it's the same situation as you and usg?
deedbot-: rejected: 1
felipelalli: !gettrust assbot felipelalli
assbot: Trust relationship from user assbot to user felipelalli: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 3 via 3 connections. |http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/trust/?from=assbot&to=felipelalli | http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/felipelalli/
jurov: punkman you're welcome to contribute a script that checks web submission (upload form for clearsigned text + any number of "attachments") and turns it into email
felipelalli: any ideas why my doc was rejected?
jurov: to mirror turdatron, only clearsigned text is checked if it's someone known to gpg, anything other is passed unchanged
deedbot-: rejected: 1
adlai: felipelalli: nope, but the symptom is reproducible!
jurov: felipelalli: it's expired
felipelalli: jurov, and how can I workaround this? Or this is out of my control? :)
felipelalli: my GPG key is expired you mean?
jurov: if you want you can send it to btc-dev, it ignores key expirations
jurov: yes your gpg key
adlai: what is expired? i was able to load it without any error about this
adlai sees: pub rsa4096/ED5CDE14 2013-05-02 [expires: 2018-12-06]
jurov: felipelalli: did you prolong it recently?
felipelalli: It has expired in my birthday (2015-12-06)
jurov: well, then both mine and deedbot-'s keyring wasn't updated with your update
felipelalli: I have uploaded to MIT.
jurov: you must wait for the botmaster (trinque afaik) to fix it
jurov: yes you uploaded, that part is fine, but bot hasn't downloaded it
adlai: assuming or suggesting that people use automated key upgrade mechanisms is... somewhere between negligent and criminal. at least, criminally negligent.
felipelalli: jurov, nice! Thank you.
adlai: felipelalli: maybe try another http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=add-key
assbot: 30 results for 'add-key' - #bitcoin-assets search
jurov: oh yes! try resubmitting your pubkey to deedbot.
ben_vulpes chuckles
felipelalli: deedbot- gives some feedback after the add-key?
adlai: ben_vulpes: archive.is the best -ception
felipelalli: It should say something like "imported: FCBC64EFDF1D6C1E4E964AEE4D88596A7CDA03F9" - but it didn't.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21832 @ 0.0005514 = 12.0382 BTC [-] {2}
jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390983 this is already done, turdatron links raw version of all email parts (check for yourself)
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 14:42:22; mircea_popescu: just, if you want to add a patch, should be able to dump it as dpaste also.
jurov: so you can pass clearsigned text directly to deedbot like: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=02-01-2016#1359305
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: if i understand the shiva rebake correctly, applying tinyscheme_genesis_vpatch, then tinyscheme_crud_snip, then tinyscheme_repl_fix_fixed bangs the tree into the correct shape?
jurov: trinque: does deedbot allow submissions with detached signatures? like "deedbot- <url1.sig> <url2>"
assbot: Egyptian Lover - I Need A Freak - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1QR2LiJ )
jurov: thay would be much cleaner solution that trying to invent some "container" for patches to prevent whitespace/newline munging
deedbot-: [BitBet Bets Bets] 1.00000000 BTC on 'No' - Rand Paul will be Republicans' 2016 Presidential Nominee - http://bitbet.us/bet/1208/rand-paul-will-be-republicans-2016-presidential-nominee/#b14
BingoBoingo: !up ascii_rear
BingoBoingo: !up ascii_rear
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 20:48:02; jurov: asciilifeform: can't you just get rid of gmail? or it's the same situation as you and usg?
ascii_rear: i can't use mp's filter algo
ascii_rear: gotta be able to receive from not-seen-before addrs
ascii_rear: but also don't have 2hrs/day to hand-sift
ascii_rear: i have a nongmail box but it is rapidly drowning under deluge
phf: ascii_rear: you tried fastmail?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34371 @ 0.0005517 = 18.9625 BTC [+]
phf: well, then
mircea_popescu: omfg no fucking wai.
mircea_popescu goes back to log reading the gap\
mircea_popescu: !up ascii_rear
mircea_popescu: http://104.131.72.249/patches/mod6_fix_dumpblock_params << this is rapidly becoming very sweet. mind adding the select javascript too ? :D
assbot: mod6_fix_dumpblock_params ... ( http://bit.ly/1QQQHOC )
mircea_popescu: !up ascii_rear
trinque: jurov │ trinque: does deedbot allow submissions with detached signatures? like "deedbot- <url1.sig> <url2>" << it does not, but is not rocket surgery to add. seems useful for posting scripts
ascii_rear: and its gangrene stinks!!
trinque: !up felipelalli
phf: kek, Selfimportant html ButtSecks header
ascii_rear: waiwut
felipelalli: kakobrekla, do you have an idea why deedbot- didn't accept my renewed key? thank you.
assbot: That spiffy selection thing. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1jZbjX6 )
kakobrekla: felipelalli ask trinque, i dont run deedbot-
trinque: felipelalli: I thought you were talking about assbot
ascii_rear: maybe we will learn now why it does nothing on my wwwtrons
ben_vulpes: aha i begin to see the wisdom of pressing all reachable leaves now
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391704 << yeah that's the idea, but we specifically dun want to say "trust x thing" in the imperative.
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 20:28:00; phf: huh so with original v design, mod6 could sign all the patches that are deemed releasable, and then all you need is mod6.asc in your wot and trb will press
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, a large chunk of what mod6 is doing is running through the ever-expanding ball of patches and making a curated set.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40211 @ 0.00055583 = 22.3505 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: i'm willing to bet than when there will be turdatron www upload form, asciilifeform will use the most broken browser in existence to try to upload the files
punkman: lol
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 20:41:16; jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391302 lemme see. your beloved gmail marked README as application/octet-stream
jurov: like he does with the email client
mircea_popescu: hey alf, how about you move out of the us ? hm ? HM ?
mircea_popescu: jurov there is some merit to that lol.
mircea_popescu: da fuck, you must be the only one here using gmail.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391760 << if your sig expired it may be that deedbot will still see the expired one until it updates. if it ever does.
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 20:51:15; felipelalli: any ideas why my doc was rejected?
mircea_popescu: really, expiring signatures is a stupid idea.
mircea_popescu: you want to expire a sig, do it by hand.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391794 << yeah but i meant, before it goes in, not after. after yes it does, and it's very nice.
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 21:19:02; jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390983 this is already done, turdatron links raw version of all email parts (check for yourself)
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391802 << thinking about it i think you';re right actually.
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 21:27:52; jurov: thay would be much cleaner solution that trying to invent some "container" for patches to prevent whitespace/newline munging
punkman: gpg already has dpastable ascii containers
jurov: but they are completely unreadable
mircea_popescu: we're going the other way : taking gpg out, not putting more of it in.
ben_vulpes: anyways, mod6 you gotta upgrade v.pl to press *all* reachable leaves. that's the problem i'm running into with asciilifeform's recent shiva rebake
jurov: *human-unreadable
mod6: all reachable leaves
mod6: it does
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 79696 @ 0.00055644 = 44.346 BTC [+] {5}
phf: put everything in tar containers?
phf: fwiw stock selection magic doesn't work out of the box on safari
phf: nor firefox
phf: mircea_popescu: http://104.131.72.249/patches/asciilifeform_zap_showmyip_crud does selection work here for you?
assbot: asciilifeform_zap_showmyip_crud ... ( http://bit.ly/1QR7NvC )
ben_vulpes: can someone confirm that it's just as possible to malleate a transaction low->high s as it is to malleate it high->low ?
mircea_popescu: phf does the archive.is implementation work for yo u ?
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: meaning that transactions can only be malleated from high->low order?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes in what sense "just as possible"
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes nope was @phf's question
ben_vulpes: in that it's possible to malleate in either direction. ease i suppose doesn't figure into the question.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55084 @ 0.00055834 = 30.7556 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: what's your idea of possible ?
mircea_popescu: "is it as possible to turn a grade from 50% to 75% as it is to turn it from 75% to 50%" ?
mircea_popescu: in what sense ? paper will carry anything. the social practice of throwing curves won't. etc.
ben_vulpes: if you have access to the gradebook...
mircea_popescu: if you mine yourself, on your own coin, it is possible to do anything.
ben_vulpes: so a decomposition then
ben_vulpes: i create a transaction with a low s value. someone listening to broadcast transactions can rewrite my tx to have a high s value.
ben_vulpes: correct?
ben_vulpes: (create and broadcast)
mircea_popescu: numerically, there is no way to distinguish between a transaction that was signed high and a transaction that was signed low and malleated to high
mircea_popescu: juist like numerically there is no way to distinguish between a transaction that was signed low and one that was signed high and malleated to low.
ben_vulpes: great, i follow.
mircea_popescu: mostly because the conversion consists of substracting from a constant
ben_vulpes: now, are miners not mining transactions signed low?
mircea_popescu: the miners are mining low-s as is and malleating all high-s and mining them as low-s
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15575 @ 0.00056082 = 8.7348 BTC [+] {2}
ben_vulpes: okay.
mircea_popescu: the benefit of all this pile of legwork is deeply unclear,
mircea_popescu: but the derps ran off with progress and here we are.
ben_vulpes: now were b,tmsr~ to run its own pool mining only high-s transactions, would clients in the wild reject those blocks?
mircea_popescu: i originally thought so but research in here shows that no, it's never checked.
mircea_popescu: feel free to read it yourself, pointer to code was in log
ben_vulpes: sure, i'm mostly confirming my own recollection.
ben_vulpes: but digging as far down into the roots of my conclusions as makes sense to dispel ambiguity
ben_vulpes: uh next
ben_vulpes: how did you come to the conclusion that it was miners doing the malleation, and not nobodies malleating and rebroadcasting?
mircea_popescu: cui prodest.
ben_vulpes: > deeply unclear
mircea_popescu: cui prodest scelus is fecit, he who benefits from misdeed did it.
ben_vulpes: could just as easily be a USG FUD campaign.
ben_vulpes: how do the miners benefit though.
ben_vulpes: it is greater on malleated transactions?! but but
ben_vulpes: this'd invalidate the signature.
ben_vulpes: i'm sure that i misunderstand.
mircea_popescu: if you include the tx, you get the fee. if you don't include it, for any reason, you don't get the fee.
mircea_popescu: since they agreed to only include low-s for whatever random reason / concern trolling / misinformed desire to be nice and good, they're stuck now.
mircea_popescu: note the very usg-tard approach to things : it IS true that ambiguous signatures are bad ; it is DEEPLY UNTRUE that we can counter this by AGREEING among ourselves "not to do it".
mircea_popescu: statutory solutions to bad design, a "western world" specialty.
ben_vulpes: but there's no actual reason why they couldn't mine high-s transactions, adherence to party line aside.
mircea_popescu: there is no real reason to do anything they do anyway
mircea_popescu: adherence to shared delusion aside.
assbot: [BTC-dev] The Bitcoin Foundation: STATE OF BITCOIN ADDRESS ... ( http://bit.ly/1QRacXn )
mircea_popescu: ``heathen command'' << am i the only one seeing a weird set of unmatching quotes here ?
ben_vulpes: that's how mod6 has always quoted things...
BingoBoingo: <ben_vulpes> in that it's possible to malleate in either direction. ease i suppose doesn't figure into the question. << Someone malleating to high-s is why power derps started malleating to low-s
mod6: sometimes when i'm quoteing someone, as opposed to a thing, i'll use `` '' instead.
phf: so selecting works, but visiting url with selection gives me weirdest bugs :o
ben_vulpes: "selecting works!"
ben_vulpes: "viewing, not yet."
mircea_popescu: phf is this a case of "js is useless" or fixable ?
phf: i got tricked into hacking web
mircea_popescu: see what the republic can do to you ?
mircea_popescu: hide your daugthers, nothing is safe.
phf: gotta outsource it to ben_vulpes
mircea_popescu: #b-a corrupts deeper than anything aforeseen.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [DEALCO] 302 @ 0.0034999 = 1.057 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo is actually right, there's some history of derpage in all this.
phf: he can get me a pm at $150/hr and two junior devs $50/hr each in no time. selection will work by next iteration, but will depend on jquery and react
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> since they agreed to only include low-s for whatever random reason / concern trolling / misinformed desire to be nice and good, they're stuck now. << It's power derps malleating tx on the way to miners, including on that realy network.
ben_vulpes: la serenissima might be able to rent my oar pullers if it could convert my deficit spending to turkey-buying dollars
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes serenissima would rather buy coke whores from drexl than west coast web coders.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo is actually right, there's some history of derpage in all this. << username high-s malleator used on social media was 'amaclin'
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: you think i don't know this?
ben_vulpes: how do you think i'd rather spend my dollars, on 'macbook pros' or bitcoins and linux workstations?
mircea_popescu: my bet is diapers and station wagons, but we digress :D
assbot: Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/3HV75KR.txt )
ben_vulpes: diapers are pretty cheap, actually.
ben_vulpes: don't even add up to a whole computer over the year.
mircea_popescu: actually from what i hear, that's the voice of privilege.
BingoBoingo: brb after dinner and 12&12 study to issue qntra statement
mircea_popescu: anyone thinking diapers are cheap is not-poor in the us
mircea_popescu: just like everyone who had jeans was not-poor in su.
mircea_popescu: mod6 weather it is `high' or `low'. <
mircea_popescu: in the email to the mailing list. [R ?]
mod6: oh hey, did i screw that up?
mod6: i don't follow.
mircea_popescu: the first is a mere spelling error. the second, shoul;dn't there be a [R]eference to the email ?
mod6: mod6's vpatch, `mod6_der_high_low_s.vpatch' [R.09]
mod6: ok yeah, there is a ref in there. ^
mod6: spelling error. christ on a pony.
mod6: "Hier lies mod6, couldn't spell."
ben_vulpes: i even pointed that one out to you, but we're mad busy
mod6: oh f. yah you did. dangit.
mircea_popescu: mod6 released V [v99996] [R.05] that resolved a defect and implemented two
mircea_popescu: change requests. The intimate details of the changes are outlined in the
mircea_popescu: email to the mailing list.
mod6 headdrop
mircea_popescu: so then... add a [R.09] at end of that ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67095 @ 0.00055133 = 36.9915 BTC [-] {4}
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: would you confirm that tinyscheme_genesis_fixed.vpatch does *not* depend on shiva parts one and two?
mod6: mircea_popescu: that part is just in reference to V's release in R.05, not the high/low S patch which is R.09
mircea_popescu: so then "the email to the mailing list" symbol shouldn't have a reference ?
mircea_popescu: i dunno, doesn't have to, just asking.
mod6: oh, it does, sometimes if it's been referenced before in the document, i don't re-reference it.
mod6: NOTE: With the publication of the latest version of V [v99996] [R.05] these
mod6: makefiles, as they were submitted to the Mailing List [R.06]
mod6: where that part is above the section for [V]
mod6: i just tried to avoid extra clutter in there.
ben_vulpes: phf: selection works on chrome for me
jurov pats mod6 on the shoulder... no problem, i had to redo monthly treasury report once or twice, too
phf: ben_vulpes: yeah, i fixed more things since i last chimed in, but now end range is not being covered on safari
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes does the selection work on trilema for you ?
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: link me?
ben_vulpes: phf: also, if you'd care to share your llvm/clang compilator i'd love to take a look
phf: so i dropped patches from "[BTC-dev] Tinyscheme Genesis, Cleanup, and Fixes, CORRECTED; -and- Shiva Pedigree Bridge." but i'm still missing something so they are just hanging there separately, http://104.131.72.249/patches/
punkman: there's a part about a dir rename in that mail
assbot: Splendor in the Grass on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1WVE9pC )
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: highlights "uppose if we were all mentally retarded a la United States / Some O"
mircea_popescu: holy shit
mircea_popescu: "riously, so the girl won't fuck because she figures you don't value her if she" << on my system
assbot: Splendor in the Grass on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1QRcmGc )
mircea_popescu: omfg they don't count elements the same way.
phf: yeah, that's what i'm debugging right now
ben_vulpes: have fun boys
ben_vulpes: with that spittoon
assbot: Splendor in the Grass on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1QRcs0E )
ben_vulpes: "naked Natalie Wood"
ben_vulpes: have fun
ben_vulpes: don't know or care
phf: mircea_popescu: it's broken across multiple dom elements
mircea_popescu: i guess i fucked it up when putting it on trilema ? asciilifeform ^ mind saying what the above link does ?
phf: on safari first selection (if we were all...) simply breaks, second one works
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: has blessed us with a new root node with which to fuzz all v implementations
mircea_popescu: phf the truth is that it'd be great if there was a way for reader to select what text he's referencing. but if it can't be made to work then we can't really use it.
ben_vulpes: but it's so close! with only an unknowable amount of further hacking it could totally work!
punkman: why not highlight server-side
phf: ben_vulpes: so shiva 2 of 2 links to rest of tree, shiva 1 of 1 is a genesis with no descendants, and that whole tinyscheme_genesis_fixed tree presses into tinyscheme/ root that's not even inside bitcoin. i'm not sure what ascii is up to
mircea_popescu: punkman server doens't know what reader cares about.
punkman: just need a ? instead of #
ben_vulpes: phf: i see
mircea_popescu: punkman how do you figure this'd work ?
mircea_popescu: the dom is a wholly client side thing, server just spits out a string as far as it's concerned
punkman: it'd work better for viewing, because I've seen broken selections a lot too
mircea_popescu: viewport allignment also client side thing
ben_vulpes: a thing to do might be to leave the genesis press as-is, move the resulting tinyscheme dir into the correct shiva location and then press the rest of the patches reground to reference the shivadir
ben_vulpes: this means that v-pressings have to be idempotent.
ben_vulpes: eg that `v press shiva stans_sweet_patch.vpatch && v press shiva stans_sweet_patch.vpatch' must result in the same tree as running the command once.
ben_vulpes: so that operators can press, migrate dir, and press more.
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell asciilifeform ^^ plz to opine
gribble: The operation succeeded.
jurov: !mpif
assbot: BtcAlpha.com F.MPIF Tracker estimated NAV per share: 0.00021486 B (Total: 426.88 B). Delta: -1.51 B. Last trade for F.MPIF on MPEX was at 0.000209 BTC [-]
jurov: !t m f.mpif
assbot: I don't give a shit who saw what and who did what or who did who.
phf: so if i have a->b->c d->e and i'm pressing to b, i need to make sure that topo sort is d e a b c, so that the press includes d and e
phf: doing by the book kahn topo sort on my graph results in topo a b c d e so pressing to c drops the whole d e subgraph
assbot: Founder of Liberty Reserve Pleads Guilty to Laundering More Than $250 Million through His Digital Currency Business | OPA | Department of Justice ... ( http://bit.ly/1WVGFwa )
ben_vulpes: phf: yuuuup.
felipelalli: mircea_popescu, I know that you think expire a key is a bad idea. I saw you saying that in MPEx FAQ. But why? Could you elaborate more about that? Isn't that useful in case someone dies or lost the control over the key?
felipelalli: trinque, no I was talking about deedbot-. The bot didn't accept my renewed key.
phf: in fact kahn iterates over a set of nodes, so there's no explicit order guarantee
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 97146 @ 0.00056026 = 54.427 BTC [+] {3}
ben_vulpes: phf: the chains must kiss somewhere in order for the ordering to make sense
phf: aye
assbot: OpenPGP Best Practices - help.riseup.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1Prv5r4 )
ben_vulpes: felipelalli: mpex doesn't respect key expiration extension.
phf: i can change my toposort to consider first seen nodes first, which results in the full press like http://104.131.72.249/patches/asciilifeform_shiva_part_2_of_2
assbot: asciilifeform_shiva_part_2_of_2 ... ( http://bit.ly/1Prvdqq )
phf: but that merges nodes from unrelated graphs without any sort of sense or reason
phf: so pressing anything from shiva graph is entirely senseless http://104.131.72.249/patches/asciilifeform_tinyscheme_shiva_bridge
assbot: asciilifeform_tinyscheme_shiva_bridge ... ( http://bit.ly/1PrvlpP )
phf: asciilifeform: ^ plx
assbot: tinyscheme_genesis_fixed ... ( http://bit.ly/1PrvqKh )
ben_vulpes: this is a nifty patchbrowser, phf
ben_vulpes: phf: what do you mean "first seen nodes"?
phf: ben_vulpes: kahn loops over a list of nodes that starts with genesis. on each iteration node in the list is inspected, its children added to the list for further inspection. you can give priority to what was in the list first or give priority to what's in the list last, which will produce either depth first or breadth first walk
ben_vulpes: i suspect v's toposort will need to account for multiple geneses
assbot: Logged on 29-01-2016 18:19:27; phf: right now it seems like an artifact of topo sort
ben_vulpes: either that or find roots first, toposort from each root, and then apply each set of toposorted patches in some arbitrary order
phf: well, original v uses python dictionary for "list to inspect", i.e. order is non-deterministic
ben_vulpes: mhm, i recall
ben_vulpes: i think it's asciibeterministic
mircea_popescu: phf> doing by the book kahn topo sort on my graph results in topo a b c d e so pressing to c drops the whole d e subgraph << this is correct.
mircea_popescu: <felipelalli> mircea_popescu, I know that you think expire a key is a bad idea. I saw you saying that in MPEx FAQ. But why? Could you elaborate more about that? Isn't that useful in case someone dies or lost the control over the key? << how is a bitfield in the gpg key help you in case you die ? or lose control of the key ? neither of these are time-able events.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: this introduces a conflict between "pressing a head presses all signed patches at same leaf-level that have been signed by wot"
ben_vulpes: conflict *with
mircea_popescu: between what and what ?
mircea_popescu: uh. how are unconnected nodes at "the same level" ? they're at an undefined level
mircea_popescu: and undefined is by definition not equal to anything
ben_vulpes: this was a thing i bounced off weeks ago!
mircea_popescu: if d e do not have a common antecessor with c, pressig to c dropps them.
assbot: Logged on 14-11-2015 02:10:00; ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: the press algo must then press all same-tree-level leaves for the given leaf, correct?
mircea_popescu: SAME LEVEL!
mircea_popescu: nodes at undefined level are not same with anything.
ben_vulpes: howzabout another scenario
mircea_popescu: c is level 2. d is level ?.
ben_vulpes: d is level 0, actually
ben_vulpes: as is a
mircea_popescu: no, it is not.
mircea_popescu: a is level 0, for c. d is level ? for c.
mircea_popescu: you're thinking global scope like some sort of perlhead.
ben_vulpes: flow already makes this mistake iirc
ben_vulpes: but there's no guarantee that it renders a b c d e instead of d e a b c
ben_vulpes: BECAUSE FLATTENING TREES
mircea_popescu: anyway. there is no concept of level defined outside of a press.
ben_vulpes refuses to give up
mircea_popescu: if you're pressing c, then all the leaves c depends on have levels, and only they have a level.
mircea_popescu: so a has 0 and c has 2 and d has nothing.
ben_vulpes: what is to be done with c' and c'', then (patches that also depend on b but have nothing to do with c)
mircea_popescu: if you're pressing e, d is 0, and e is 1, and a, b and c are all ?
ben_vulpes: yes i follow, slow as i am
ben_vulpes: but the primes, do i press them? or simply recurse up the antecedent chain cleanly?
mircea_popescu: what primes ?
ben_vulpes: a b {c, c', c''}
ben_vulpes: where c, c' and c'' all depend on b. if i press c, do c' and c'' make it as well?
mircea_popescu: that's entirely up to you neh ? i'd prefer it if i told you to press c for you to limit yourself to pressing c.
mircea_popescu: someone who is doing debugging might wish to see the whole tree all the way down
mircea_popescu: this is up to the user.
ben_vulpes: sure, and i don't take much umbrage at this.
mircea_popescu: generally from what i've understood, the default behaviour was production (1st above), whereas people these days decided they'd like to see development (2nd above). i also don't take umbrage with this.
mircea_popescu: but unconnected graphs are a horse of another feather.
mircea_popescu: you wanna see shiva, press e.
ben_vulpes: sorry for all the dumb questions, just working to tease out into explicitude what everyone else takes for granted.
phf: mircea_popescu: what to do about a b->c->d e->f press to c. a b c? or b c?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes no it's not bad, make sure we're ACTUALLY on the same page as opposed to just jointly excited.
punkman: choosing a position in toposorted list for pressing was just a hack to keep things simple
deedbot-: accepted: 1
ben_vulpes: thank you jurov!
ben_vulpes: and thank you for reporting per my ask.
jurov: yw
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55608 @ 0.00055514 = 30.8702 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 114250 @ 0.00055285 = 63.1631 BTC [-] {6}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17870 @ 0.00055586 = 9.9332 BTC [+] {2}
deedbot-: accepted: 1
deedbot-: [Qntra] Qntra (S.QNTR) January 2016 Report - http://qntra.net/2016/02/qntra-s-qntr-january-2016-report/
BingoBoingo: punkman: Feel free to qntra it up I got a meeting to get to.
deedbot-: accepted: 1
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 415813 @ 0.00056296 = 234.0861 BTC [+] {8}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3432 @ 0.00056417 = 1.9362 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 83175 @ 0.00055921 = 46.5123 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 79800 @ 0.00056567 = 45.1405 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28500 @ 0.00056676 = 16.1527 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: !up TheRealJohnGalt
BingoBoingo: !up alphonse23_
BingoBoingo: !up Norbiss
BingoBoingo: !up raedah
assbot: Instagram ... ( http://bit.ly/1JT7E9J )
ben_vulpes: good evening, BingoBoingo
BingoBoingo: evening Mr. Fox
ben_vulpes: how was the 12/12
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Not bad. Quite a few visitors for a sunday meeting
ben_vulpes: you've been in it for what, 2 months at this point?
mircea_popescu: how many months is it for the special hat ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 78628 @ 0.00056701 = 44.5829 BTC [+] {3}
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes wut ?
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: 3
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Better than hats, they do coins for 1, 3, 6, and then every year.
ben_vulpes: works if you work it
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu wut?
mircea_popescu: no idea why i'm reading random blather about the human fund - money for people. or w/e
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
ben_vulpes: trumpenreich 2016, duh
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 368.95, vol: 4409.94441176 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 375.493, vol: 3441.25724 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 366.85, vol: 20204.78414813 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 369.0, vol: 0.03261465 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 375.360084, vol: 33446.40800000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 369.62307, vol: 241.10449841 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 381.111934904, vol: 33.66723239 | Volume-weighted last (1 more message)
BingoBoingo: ;;more
gribble: average: 372.107348189
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all --currency eur
gribble: Bitstamp BTCEUR last: 340.09811, vol: 4409.94441176 | BTC-E BTCEUR last: 345.15, vol: 45.68 | CampBX BTCEUR last: 340.1442, vol: 0.03261465 | BTCChina BTCEUR last: 346.283202, vol: 33447.39620000 | Kraken BTCEUR last: 343.99974, vol: 2854.81219994 | Bitcoin-Central BTCEUR last: 351.31999899, vol: 33.66723239 | Volume-weighted last average: 345.457610149
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all --currency jpy
gribble: Bitstamp BTCJPY last: 44751.79025, vol: 4417.71642254 | BTC-E BTCJPY last: 45545.180845, vol: 3441.55924 | CampBX BTCJPY last: 44757.855, vol: 0.03261465 | BTCChina BTCJPY last: 45564.6627, vol: 33447.72720000 | Kraken BTCJPY last: 44000.0, vol: 29.32626815 | Bitcoin-Central BTCJPY last: 46224.9288671, vol: 33.66723239 | Volume-weighted last average: 45475.6666147
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all --currency rmb
gribble: BTCChina BTCRMB last: 2477.0, vol: 33448.04360000 | Volume-weighted last average: 2477.0
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 76000 @ 0.00056629 = 43.038 BTC [-]
assbot: Hot Perjury ... ( http://bit.ly/20AYRgN )
phf: a curio for the lisp aficionados http://mumble.net/~jar/pseudoscheme/ an implementation of scheme in common lisp forward ported from lisp machines. a precursor to scheme48, so gets a lot of things right
ben_vulpes: i've been trying to read the tinyscheme sources
ben_vulpes: did not know that tear ducts could weep blood
phf: ben_vulpes: ideally you'd want to read this first http://www.amazon.com/Lisp-Small-Pieces-Christian-Queinnec/dp/0521545668
assbot: Lisp in Small Pieces: Christian Queinnec, Kathleen Callaway: 9780521545662: Amazon.com: Books ... ( http://bit.ly/20havAw )
phf: or rather instead :D
ben_vulpes: one of the things that remains a mystery to me is the recompilation facilities supporting slime et al
ben_vulpes: although that's probably more accurately strictly a SBCL thing.
ben_vulpes: a hundred and eleven fucking dollars!?
ben_vulpes: seventy six eighty on MOTHERFUCKING KINDLE?!
ben_vulpes: I WILL NOTE
phf: :D
mircea_popescu: awww, but all this technology was here to make books cheap and accessible!
BingoBoingo: Hey, Amazon will buy your copy for a $25 gift card though!
mircea_popescu: what, you thought they're only selling at 0.95 for a few years until barnes and noble goes under ?
ben_vulpes: the notion that there is any price for bits not agreed upon by a bid by people who want the bits and an opening of the floodgates by those who have them at an accepable rate is utter horseshit.
mircea_popescu: the notion of some retard somewhere paying a hundred he actually worked for so as to receive a pdf still makes me chuckle.
mircea_popescu: next whores'll be paying to get ramed.
ben_vulpes: those curly horns don't look too fun, but whaddoiknow
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 75800 @ 0.00056672 = 42.9574 BTC [+]
phf: of course per ascii's oft repeated point there's a russian translation, on github, https://github.com/ilammy/lisp
assbot: ilammy/lisp - TeX - GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/20hbVv1 )
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: know anything about deleuze and guatarri in the context of intertextuality?
ben_vulpes: guattari*
copypaste: i have a kindle, but never use the store feature.
ben_vulpes: that'd be a no then?
mircea_popescu: that'd be a wtf is wrong with you.
copypaste: also, i liked your attempt at the merchant rewrite mircea_popescu :)
BingoBoingo: If you need to invoke intertextuality for any reason, your problem is likely wrong.
mircea_popescu: i also know something about finkielkraut and that other fuckwit in the context of amorous disorder.
ben_vulpes: i don't know anything about the topic!
mircea_popescu: ask better questions.
BingoBoingo: Maybe people can actually use it in french, but in the English language if you invoke it, there is a near certainty you and your problem are wrong.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 109479 @ 0.00056618 = 61.9848 BTC [-] {5}
mircea_popescu: you read it, incidentally, ben_vulpes ?
ben_vulpes: what 'it'
mircea_popescu: ;;google le Nouveau desordre amoureux
gribble: Le Nouveau Désordre amoureux — Wikipédia: <https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Nouveau_D%C3%A9sordre_amoureux>; PhilO - Pascal Bruckner - Le nouveau désordre amoureux (16 juin ...: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwqcq_HBKPk>; «Tout le monde couchait avec tout le monde» - L'Express: <http://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/societe/sexualite/tout-le-monde-couchait-avec-tout-le- (1 more message)
phf: Foucault!
ben_vulpes: i did debord a while ago
ben_vulpes: but no, i am a classically poorly-read american.
ben_vulpes: still working through scip, and even that's deficit spending.
phf: i spent some time playing a lot of kriegspiel with a friend of mine
deedbot-: [Qntra] Bitcoin Foundation Address Recap: Next Release Imminent, Shiva Introduced - http://qntra.net/2016/02/bitcoin-foundation-address-recap-next-release-imminent-shiva-introduced/
assbot: Kriegspiel -- About: Overview ... ( http://bit.ly/20hdxES )
ben_vulpes: nifty, BingoBoingo
BingoBoingo: ty ben_vulpes
ben_vulpes: perhaps reference Bitcoin implementation instead of daemon, as daemon refers to how a process gets handled by whatever nix is handling procs locally
ben_vulpes: i will continue to drive for "reference implementation" over "real bitcoin" or such grandiosities
mircea_popescu: anyway, to summarize a century or two of purely french wankery for the benefit of the youthful lisper : what the publish&perish industry did in english on the basis of the bastardized electronic typewriter known as excel is not NEW in any sense, but merely a reimplementation of a traditional french passtime, originally played on more primitive instruments.
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Until it's BitcoinOS it's a daemon. It's important to refer to it as a number of descriptive things for legacy www reasons.
mircea_popescu: deleuze is exactly a worthless word pusher, trying to do "the x of y" like any silicon valley wanna-be. his "x of the y" is a silly "no identity exists save as a piling-on of differences"
mircea_popescu: but basically, and transparently, the driving force behind him, and the whole rest, is "what could we further say".
BingoBoingo: Oh, so basically a different Derrida wank
ben_vulpes: i'm always interested in finding the root nodes the 'further say'ers metastasized from
mircea_popescu: have we said that the icecream is square ? o ? how about the square is icecream ? that too? hmm... "icecream square is that" no ?
mircea_popescu: HA! IDEA! |\
mircea_popescu: but these are treacherous waters and really not advisable for the innocent.
mircea_popescu: especially seeing how there's exactly no benefit to be had.
phf: point illustrated by brion gysin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hw9dmLCdgyI
assbot: Brion Gysin - I Am [1960] - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/201SzVe )
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Husserl is something of a root node, you can get to him through kant->Fichte->Hegel->Marx
mircea_popescu: oh, and your mentioning kant reminds me : the whole "time is imposed by the observer" nonsense, also.
BingoBoingo: Distinct problem though is lots of oversized patches in this V graph
mircea_popescu: al these khagne idjits'd have benefitted immensely from a modest physical education.
BingoBoingo: Well, what other conclusion is a bored German to come to?
BingoBoingo: He came from Prussia, not a Germany with clocks at the time
mircea_popescu: not that time's a prime order concept, but that it's both sad and unbecoming to field the matter with antiquated flintlocks left from 1700.
mircea_popescu: there's a lot more intelligent things to say about time, and certainly better doubts to present than "oh it's secreted by observation". especially in the fucking 60s.
BingoBoingo: It's a problem of making V patches too big, turds find a way
BingoBoingo: Or drugs
pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes: heh. i was actually taking a look at that trilema earlier today. if gabrielradio wants to lay the foundation, i'd be happy to build the house.
assbot: Inca o pozitie sexuala on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1QQKamU )
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: If having more no longer satisfies us, perhaps we’ve reached ‘peak stuff’ | Will Hutton | Opinion | The Guardian ... ( http://bit.ly/1OZE1Cp )
assbot: Logged on 28-01-2016 13:21:58; mircea_popescu: it's a combination of multisecular trends. one is a hate of plastics, that has been brewing for at least five decades. the other is a hate of self, that;s been brewing since ww2, and that expresses itself variously, but for instance in current "carbon"-ecology.
pete_dushenski: in summa : "we should be less individualistic and more like the cattle we properly are. let's stop pretending to be something we're not"
pete_dushenski: which isn't half-bad advice
pete_dushenski: now, to digest 1k lines...
pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391519 << /me starting to appreciate v-power ! (and no, not the shell gasoline)
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 19:22:50; phf: oh, if you remove joe from wot, v finds an alternative path
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 139050 @ 0.00056188 = 78.1294 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 77086 @ 0.0005599 = 43.1605 BTC [-] {2}
pete_dushenski: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/31/teenage-girl-made-up-migrant-claim-that-caused-uproar-in-germany << in related nyooz, 'lisa' is 13yo. no pic but guessing she's not a beached whale, or else no one would've believed her for even a minute.
assbot: Teenage girl admits making up migrant rape claim that outraged Germany | World news | The Guardian ... ( http://bit.ly/1Tw1i24 )
mircea_popescu: so are we going to believe the admission of the girl that admits she lied ?
mircea_popescu: or are we going to think she was true the first time and is lying now ?
pete_dushenski: yea, maybe she has allahusnackbarstockholm syndrome
mircea_popescu: well moreover, a lot of people would a whole lot rather believe it never happened. so...
pete_dushenski: i'd leave a comment bringing this very point up but... the guardian has disabled all comments.
pete_dushenski: too uncomfortabru
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