Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2016-01-10 | 2016-01-12 →
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17900 @ 0.0005039 = 9.0198 BTC [-] {3}
phf: ben_vulpes: i'll take at look in the next few days, but one quick comment, fwiw i built it on a 32-bit openbsd.
phf: the goal was to run it on a libretto and try to eat the first couple of blocks, but it wouldn't even connect to rpc for whatever reason, so i gave up on the whole distraction
deedbot-: [Qntra] Reference Client Patch Bans Bloom Filter Parasites -
phf: (trying to debug via serial cable on a pentium 233 is it's own kind of fun....)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21650 @ 0.00049831 = 10.7884 BTC [-] {3}
BingoBoingo: ^ No promise IP in article was IP actually seen in debug.log
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21542 @ 0.00050644 = 10.9097 BTC [+] {2}
ben_vulpes: programmers and their bonzai trees of complexity
ben_vulpes: nightmare hybrid zen rock combing garden and jenga
mats: i can't visualize this
BingoBoingo: mats: Imagine the rocks are wet and the rake is sodium
ben_vulpes: in freefall
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35104 @ 0.00049865 = 17.5046 BTC [-]
mats: but where is the jenga
ben_vulpes: aha it's backwards jenga
ben_vulpes: you add new bits and try to not knock the whole thing over
mats: one can't just smash japanesu words together with jenga and expect this to be comprehensible
ben_vulpes: all the while gently raking the rocks and snipping ornamentally at the leaves
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4468 @ 0.00049865 = 2.228 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 392774 | Current Difficulty: 1.0388034081545589E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 393119 | Next Difficulty In: 345 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 0 hours, 25 minutes, and 15 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11250 @ 0.00050645 = 5.6976 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5300 @ 0.00050645 = 2.6842 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69350 @ 0.00050571 = 35.071 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26100 @ 0.00049992 = 13.0479 BTC [-] {4}
copypaste: mircea_popescu: i see you're having trouble with - they seized a domain of mine without warning before, and only gave it back when i retained a lawyer in the Bahamas; the domain was
BingoBoingo: copypaste: I suspect the reason you dislike pete_dushenski aping trilema is he comes from boring Canada and his cool factor and empire potential are limited by that.
copypaste: i would further like to let you know that has been sold since you and i registered our domains there, of course without notice to us
copypaste: (if in fact you registered on the creation day of 2009-06-07)
assbot: CentralNic buys domain name registrar (IBS) | Press from 2014 | Press | About | CentralNic ... ( )
BingoBoingo: copypaste: He changed registrars from namecheap when they went derpy web 2.goatse
copypaste: changed my nameservers to IBS controlled nameservers which served their own ads and intercepted all cookies to the domain
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24343 @ 0.00050648 = 12.3292 BTC [+] {4}
copypaste: well BingoBoingo, i'd also recommend you read this in case you need a refresher on how DNS actually works
assbot: The rotten and corrupt Domain Name System (DNS; EuroDNS = thieves) - ... ( )
BingoBoingo: DNS works as NSA spyware
copypaste: people who own domains are absolutely at the mercy of the registering company, because the registering company IS the actual owner according to ICANN
copypaste: and ICANN is a corrupt organization because it's USG affiliated
BingoBoingo: And Glibc DNS functions force dynamic linking which is why excised from trb
copypaste: i really hope will stay online and they won't steal it, but based on my interactions with i'm worried
copypaste: i recommend you retain an attorney in the bahamas like i did
copypaste: BingoBoingo: we all know that the best DNS system is a GPG based one. private key trumps all nebulous ideas of "ownership" and "terms of service".
BingoBoingo: "@qntra we always recommend running your own nodes for security. To run with "altruism" as one's security plan is nothing but a fool's errand"
BingoBoingo: ;;later tell guruvan thank you for stepping up on this issue
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mats: whats this gpg based dns system
copypaste: it doesn't exist but in my own head
BingoBoingo: gossipd
copypaste: but, it would be the best system ever made.
copypaste: (for DNS _)
BingoBoingo: namecoin could have not sucked, but too late for that
copypaste: indeed. the problem with DNS is how entrenched it is.
copypaste: honestly after this happened to me i went into a deep depression that took months to recover from; all of my perceptions of the internet were shattered. and as an aside that's why i no longer own 8chan
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16786 @ 0.00050688 = 8.5085 BTC [+] {3}
BingoBoingo: Muh feels
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7705 @ 0.00050729 = 3.9087 BTC [+]
ben_vulpes: copypaste: were you the guy running mp's ads?
BingoBoingo: But yeah, my perceptions of the internet continually break and have to recompile
copypaste: yes i was ben_vulpes, for the month that they were paid for
copypaste: renegotiation of that contract would have to be with <Jim Watkins>, not me
copypaste: it's probably not worth it though, 8chan is moribund
ben_vulpes: eyeballs are fickle.
copypaste: it has a chance of bouncing back, in the same way that gavin's career has a chance of bouncing back
copypaste: it could happen sure; will it? it's not likely
copypaste: BingoBoingo: now i never make assumptions about ownership. quite the opposite. if it's not backed by a private key i just assume i don't own it, less disappointment that way.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 90300 @ 0.00050662 = 45.7478 BTC [-] {8}
BingoBoingo: K, qntra's slow seems to have a touch of the DDoS. Going to sleep. Anyone who wants to write about Intel's Skylake already having a rowhammer exploit coded for its DDR4 controler feel free to sumbit a piece.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13700 @ 0.00050899 = 6.9732 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3500 @ 0.00051112 = 1.7889 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4350 @ 0.00050313 = 2.1886 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15000 @ 0.00050757 = 7.6136 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29836 @ 0.00050312 = 15.0111 BTC [-] {3}
deedbot-: [BitBet Bets Bets] 1.00000000 BTC on 'No' - Connor McDavid will live up to the hype -
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24088 @ 0.0005144 = 12.3909 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30800 @ 0.00050099 = 15.4305 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18781 @ 0.0005168 = 9.706 BTC [+] {4}
assbot: Verizon Routing Millions of IP Addresses for Cybercrime Gangs ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8150 @ 0.00051705 = 4.214 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26000 @ 0.00051282 = 13.3333 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: Shenzhen closes down 6.6% as China market rout continues - ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4900 @ 0.00051023 = 2.5001 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8250 @ 0.00051023 = 4.2094 BTC [-]
punkman: !up nikthebookie
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32968 @ 0.00051617 = 17.0171 BTC [+] {5}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20082 @ 0.00051713 = 10.385 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40200 @ 0.00051724 = 20.793 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: depends which yurp. the slovakistan healthcare deteriorates so quickly that all pregnant women i know did at least consider it.
assbot: Logged on 10-01-2016 03:54:17; mircea_popescu: but anyway. natural birth has a huge following in the states. almost unknown in yurp.
jurov: only few days ago heating in biggest hospital in bratislava fell out and they had to haul women in labour around
kakobrekla: natural = in the barn ?
jurov: no, home, usually in the tub
jurov: with some professional assistant available
kakobrekla: yeah, midwifes
jurov: lulz were when they asked PM about it while he ran his 3rd pressconference about syrian refugees in month
jurov: he literally said "stfu, the boiler room is not my responsibility"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14341 @ 0.00051737 = 7.4196 BTC [+] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49243 @ 0.00051821 = 25.5182 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10300 @ 0.00051911 = 5.3468 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12700 @ 0.00051603 = 6.5536 BTC [-] {4}
shinohai: srsly? Life in the land of the free ....
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9700 @ 0.00050727 = 4.9205 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4441 @ 0.00050624 = 2.2482 BTC [-] {3}
jurov: They will laugh at you back with your cravings of sugar.
assbot: Logged on 10-01-2016 06:21:12; BingoBoingo: Could simulate these changes with benzodiazepine dependence (which is why people who do the Keto thing recreationally start to feel sick when carbs are introduced, ketosis stops and they undergo a drug withdrawal)
adlai: !t m s.mpoe
assbot: [MPEX:S.MPOE] 1D: 0.00048327 / 0.00050429 / 0.00051911 (1339213 shares, 675.35 BTC), 7D: 0.00047125 / 0.00050131 / 0.00052085 (8567396 shares, 4,295.00 BTC), 30D: 0.00047125 / 0.00049646 / 0.00052085 (85080661 shares, 42,239.77 BTC)
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 03:48:39; kakobrekla: im not convinced absolutity is the absolute condition for measurability
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 03:51:27; adlai: the fact that i mention foucault all the time doesn't mean anybody pays attention to me obsessively quoting it, either
assbot: 3 results for 'foucault' - #bitcoin-assets search
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2015 19:17:09; shinohai: Books too, they had a hard-on for Umberto Eco for some reason, and I could never keep a copy of Foucault's Pendulum
mircea_popescu: << more importantly, it's not clear to me portage is even useful anymore. since v i mean.
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 03:54:29; asciilifeform: << y'know, reimplementing portage in cl (or whatever, fuck, in fortran if you want) instead of python doesn't magically unbreak the foss ecosystem
mircea_popescu: << i had no idea lenin shat in the bidet before.
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 03:59:57; asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: not quite: 'Ленин - жил, Ленин - жив, Ленин - будет жить!'
mircea_popescu: "lenin, lived ; lenin, lives ; lenin shat in the bidet!"
mircea_popescu: <<< certainly. which is why trb nodes are not all advertised, and we're eagerly awaiting seeing this "pure coincidence".
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 04:21:48; trinque: hitler doesn't want you to talk to nodes X Y Z, so he barfs up packets with a heathen commands.
mircea_popescu: that "never happened"
mircea_popescu: and etc.
mircea_popescu: << not exactly, at least not yet. we had an exchange, they backed off. (last i heard was "We have already asked the complainant to contact the webhost as we do not provide hosting services and cannot remove any content from the website. We are awaiting their response and will forward you the details once they respond." which is exactly what one'd expect sane people
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 06:34:49; copypaste: mircea_popescu: i see you're having trouble with - they seized a domain of mine without warning before, and only gave it back when i retained a lawyer in the Bahamas; the domain was
mircea_popescu: would say to try and extricate themselves from the potential mess).
mircea_popescu: from what intel reports they had a cowboy period ~in2014 when they stole a bunch of domains, got slapped with some suits, lost a coupla worth their income for the decade and settled right the fuck down.
mircea_popescu: anyway, judging by the [Ticket#2015121310000406] header it'd seem they sat on this for almost a month - from dec 13 to jan 9th. but whatevers, i was just looking for a pretext to throw the whole dns bullshit away anyway.
mircea_popescu: i want domain names like i want a wide selection of hats.
adlai: "naked people have little to no influence on society" - mark twain iirc?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21900 @ 0.00050485 = 11.0562 BTC [-] {4}
mircea_popescu: this was pre-mp.
mircea_popescu: these days, dressed women will have little influence on society.
copypaste: interesting mircea_popescu. i won't ask where you got that intel from, but it means i wasn't the only one affected
copypaste: and i wasn't the only one to open cases in bahamas courts
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 06:37:06; copypaste: (if in fact you registered on the creation day of 2009-06-07)
mircea_popescu: copypaste tons of people were affected and the eventual sale was related.
mircea_popescu: originally i registered the domain with namecheap ; originally namecheap was a great registrar. meanwhile they went to utter shit, the story is both on trilema an' in the logs.
copypaste: do you have a comment on the article? i think it's spot on but you definitely know all the details already
copypaste: DNS is ICANN and ICANN is USG
copypaste: therefore DNS is USG
copypaste: no way around it.
mircea_popescu: which article is this ?
copypaste: i linked it above in the log
mircea_popescu: ahj saw it
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 06:40:37; copypaste: well BingoBoingo, i'd also recommend you read this in case you need a refresher on how DNS actually works
mircea_popescu: i can't make any sense of said article, myself.
mircea_popescu: so guy is pissed off and likes to call things names. fine.
mircea_popescu: for one thing, if half a mil is " you can just forget about that right away." to you, then on what the fuck is your expectation to participate in the workings of society based ?!
mircea_popescu: obviously EVERY naming system will work exactly like the dns, or like the wot works : either be at the table, or be a child looking for parents.
mircea_popescu: how else ?
copypaste: the wot works better than DNS
copypaste: because the WoT is keybased
copypaste: and DNS is fiat biased
copypaste: i would accept a WoT DNS
mircea_popescu: well, yes, because it wasn't made by idiots. but the fundamental point remains : someone excluded could re-use that article by re-writing 5 words.
mircea_popescu: but in point of fact you can run a dns server right now, and tell everyone to use it, and for everyone who does use it... your version of the ns will be visible.
mircea_popescu: heck, there was a bitcoin-based thing that kinda worked on that premise. namecoin.
deedbot-: [BitBet Bets Bets] 1.00000000 BTC on 'Yes' - Bitcoin to top $700 before Apr 2016 -
copypaste: oh sure, but you don't get to create names on the real DNS
copypaste: the one anyone cares about
mircea_popescu: there is no "real" dns.
copypaste: it's like making an altcoin
copypaste: ICANN has given themselves authority to make new TLDs, ICANN has given themselves ultimate authority over names
mircea_popescu: well yes. your choices are : either have enough power / capiutal / value to acquire enough actual btc to matter in that world ; or else to get used to not mattering in the world ; or else to have even more power and force an alt into being.
mircea_popescu: no, the usg has given icann such authority.
adlai: someday somebody will care enough about this to cannibalize what's left of namecoin and build a proper Bitcoin DNS
mircea_popescu: and every derp out there in indonesia or peru or wherever saving in dollars in preference of my currency, or his president's currency, has given usg such power.
mircea_popescu: if they change that behaviour, the world will re-arrange and so on.
copypaste: "la florida and other places"
adlai: maybe naming systems shouldn't be design around "investment" and flipping ownership each month!
mircea_popescu: that one yeah.
mircea_popescu: there is no other way to design a naming system.
adlai: other than?
adlai wasn't aware that there was one single blessed version, DNS is just the good-enough fiat leftover that we have today
mircea_popescu: this goes all the way down to actual working of language. do we power the ns that calls me racist and evil ? do we power the ns that calls tess d'urberville or w/e her name is fat and obama an idiot ?
mircea_popescu: you can't have two.
adlai: they can bid it off
mircea_popescu: naming is by its nature this : that there will be a group in power, allocating the names, and everyone else can go suck it.
mircea_popescu: ha-ha. this is what i'll call the delusion of heysteve, this "they can bid it off", after
assbot: Logged on 16-10-2015 13:23:33; mircea_popescu: << so a) you'll spend your life driving between bickering nuts. this is a worse deal than what psychs get, at least there you gotta drive to his office. ; b) the blockchain and everything else is entirely superfluous here. your entire idea is "hey, make me the mp of renting in south africa". maybe they will or maybe they won't but you really don'
mircea_popescu: who the fuck do you think you are that they'd bother to "bid it off" ? they won't bid it off in front of you, they'll just ignore your delusion.
copypaste: i don't see why naming has to be this way.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2900 @ 0.00050726 = 1.4711 BTC [+] {2}
copypaste: naming based on the bitcoin blockchain is best. i own this bitcoin private key, i own this domain.
copypaste: it's already like that on the tor network.
copypaste: i own this private key, i own domain derpxxxxx.onion.
copypaste: you can;'t take it away from me unless you get the key. that's how naming should be.
mircea_popescu: you familiar with the name zooko ?
copypaste: dns was good in the time of fiat, it's worthless for the new paradigm.
copypaste: i'm not unfortunately.
mircea_popescu: yes. well, look into the zooko triangle.
mircea_popescu: yes, naming can work like that, if and 94875984375983.jksldak are the same to you.
mircea_popescu: otherwise, a bitcoin vanity address with five specified letters (out of the whole set) takes a day.
punkman: might as well do gpg-signed /etc/hosts entries
mircea_popescu: in fact, v-powered /etc/hosts may even be a serious improvement over the current situation.
mircea_popescu: "i want to use the dns for back-up, whenever what ~these~ people use doesn't contain an answer". seems pretty cool.
mircea_popescu: and incidentally, how the dns was actually designed to be used. the current centralist windowstardian webstupidity only works the way it works because of the userbase. the design is fine, but "everyone"| and "has come to expect" and bullshit like that make people pretend like a suboptimal local maximum is relevant to the graph. well... it ain't.
mircea_popescu: hey panzers... we actually game to doing this ? it really dun cost much and it does resolve an actual problem, provide a serious incentive to participate, makes nice media headlines... low hanging fruit.
mircea_popescu: it can even run as an antispam service in parallel. if i go in my file, you won't be seeing any ads from them in your browser, no matter what they do.
mircea_popescu: it also introduces a kinda dubious but possibly useful ddos protector, in the sense that one can run different ips for the meatriver and for the wotdns.
shinohai: That would be stellar
mircea_popescu: lettuce see what trinque ben_vulpes mod6 asciilifeform davout jurov kakobrekla & co say when they wakeup
mircea_popescu: o hey, what happened to guruvan
mircea_popescu: ;;seen guruvan
gribble: guruvan was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 1 year, 13 weeks, 4 days, 20 hours, 8 minutes, and 19 seconds ago: <guruvan> have the right key in there?
mircea_popescu: !up guruvan
jurov: if you insist on people telling you what you "must" or "we must do" then I'll tell you this: you must study what was done already before spamming opinions around.
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 01:48:18; *: adlai will have to implement his own, so it runs on his 'pogo'
mircea_popescu: << i suspect i had an incorrect idea of your involvement with that thing.
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 06:52:12; copypaste: renegotiation of that contract would have to be with <Jim Watkins>, not me
mircea_popescu: i tend to do this "X's item" because that's how the republic works. obviously, not how the fiatosphere does.
jurov: as you can see i've woken up, still have a half a day to go
jurov: or it's urgent?
mircea_popescu: nah not urgent, just important.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24800 @ 0.00051069 = 12.6651 BTC [+] {3}
copypaste: mircea_popescu: i suspect i also had an incorrect idea of my involvement with that thing
mircea_popescu: <<< if they do it right after a run of bootleg liquour, it also disinfects!
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 11:16:03; jurov: no, home, usually in the tub
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 12:44:25; punkman:
assbot: Gerald Davis is wrong. Here's why. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13591 @ 0.00051259 = 6.9666 BTC [+] {2}
copypaste: i wish there were a statically compiled eulora without all these dependencies
thestringpuller: there's binaries copypaste
copypaste: i keep trying on and off to take MP's invitation to play, but i keep being dissuaded by the large effort required on my part :p
thestringpuller: that's understandable. it's like playing dwarf fortress for the first time I 'spose
copypaste: quite
thestringpuller: i'm waiting for combat/dungeon crawling before I start to get heavily invested.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13100 @ 0.00050414 = 6.6042 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: what are you trying to run it on ?
copypaste: arch linux x86_64, and shitty pinoy internet to boot
mircea_popescu: hm, did you try teh stuff ? i dun recall if anyone ever tried it on arch specifically but by and large should work.
assbot: Ubuntu - Eulorum ... ( )
mircea_popescu: and spit out a usable binary within half an hour.
copypaste: i had some compiler error, i'll have to try again to bring it back up
copypaste: it was getting late so i just shut down and then got busy with other things
copypaste: as things go
copypaste: i only remembered as i was sorting my inbox and saw the invitation again
mircea_popescu: aha. there's a buncha people that can prolly halp if you get a specific error.
jurov: wywialm failed on problems to find corrswtionding arch packages
jurov: so if you get further, you can at least publish them
mircea_popescu: s/corrswtionding/corresponding ?
jurov: corrswtionding -> corresponding
copypaste: perhaps i could even make a PKGBUILD if i get it to work, if it pleases you guys
mircea_popescu: at least if we have some names we can bitch at arch ppl specifically.
copypaste: i have a few PKGBUILDs in the AUR
mircea_popescu: if you do you prolly get some game goodies at any rate.
jurov: copypaste: and do paste the compiler log (whole if possible).
mircea_popescu: one of the most encouraging things about eulora's economy that i see myself is - i keep a running total of player cash and of player assets. and the latter has been a monotonously increasing function ever since forever. the appetite for materials seems outright insatiable.
mircea_popescu: and in fact from the micro perspective i dun recall anything being offered for sale and not selling, yet.
copypaste: i very much love the concept of a 3d game with a bitcoin economy. i've played a few, but all poorly done.
copypaste: made by derps for derps
mircea_popescu: well the gfx here aren't too advanced,
copypaste: i mean poorly done in the community sense, in the conomy sense, in the sense of rules
mircea_popescu: but if you read the #eulora log.... ( )
assbot: #Eulora Log ... ( )
mircea_popescu: i honestly believe it's the best done game, as far as the underlying "rules" go. owner delusion or not.
mircea_popescu: considering it's been played for nigh on a year and people don't even know wtf those rules even are...
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: this insatiable need for materials will only increase when people start killing things and going to war etc.
mircea_popescu: possibru
thestringpuller: reminds me distinctly of star wars galaxies before Sony ruined the game.
mircea_popescu: of course, no major player quit yet. that's usually a principal source of excess goods
thestringpuller: cause "consumer has come to expect" but I don't think consumers will be problem for eulora
thestringpuller: but in essence eulora is more than a game, and more of a living world that people virtually inhabit
mircea_popescu: not so far. ironically... if you go by a timeplay metric, december saw 64722 player-hours, which is seriously more than what MOST games see.
mircea_popescu: for that matter, usual graphics intensive "AAA" title has what, 50 hours in it ? if not 30.
thestringpuller: the time sinks in those games are relative unfortunately because it's more effective to leave player wanting more, thus AAA publisher forces studio to make another game
thestringpuller: diminishing returns can get really dull after say 80 hours into a game with only 50 hours of story
deedbot-: [Trilema] What to do when spammers spam you ? Why... offer them work, of course! Capitalism saves lives. Touch the screen now! Heal! -
thestringpuller: as a side note, I know a player with 300 days of playtime on FFXI. Although it's been out since 2002-2003ish
thestringpuller: (300 24 hours intervals)
mircea_popescu: ;;calc 300 * 24 * 3600
gribble: 25920000
mircea_popescu: well... nobody in eulora there yet.
thestringpuller: Eulora will grow as it needs to. It's impressive.
thestringpuller: WoW killed the MMO, Eulora will rebirth it.
mircea_popescu: hopefully.
mircea_popescu: eulora record is actually a guy with 13919282 connecterd time.
mircea_popescu: not gonna say who, other than it's not even me!
mircea_popescu: fucking unfair.
thestringpuller: that's impressive
mircea_popescu: anyway, the first accounts are from early june, so "nigh on a year" ain'\t really fair. half year.
danielpbarron: probably me
jurov: what does DNS-replacement-by-v need to be done? just take your /etc/hosts, sign and publish, no?
mircea_popescu: but yeah, i did notice it tends to suck people in. not everyone, but some people.
thestringpuller: !up PeterL
mircea_popescu: jurov im thinking more like a rotor script to build a local hosts out of, maybe, deedbotted things ?
mircea_popescu: on the base of sigils etc.
thestringpuller: Eulora has deep gameplay, which creates emergent phenomenon which is by design. The real interesting thing is mircea_popescu has figured out how to do this without spending a million a dollars.
mircea_popescu: user can run it periodically.
thestringpuller: !up ascii_butugychag
PeterL: BingoBoingo, My current lab is not set up to handle anything as dangerous as FOOF, would need a few kBTC to get something like that set up
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller the thing is, the meta-game is incredibly rich and very rewarding. usually the problem with making a game, as an enthusiast, is that fucking hell you know it so it's at best half as fun.
jurov: what's a sigil?
mircea_popescu: but because of the metagame this doesn't actually hold here. much to my satisfaction.
mircea_popescu: jurov concept from v, it keeps a sigil directory.
jurov: are these concepts, like, documented anywhere?
mircea_popescu: but he has a point, mod6 and ascii_butugychag : we should prolly document v.
ascii_butugychag: << much as mircea_popescu dislikes 'must x before y!1111' affairs, this really oughta run on gossipd.
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 15:37:56; mircea_popescu: jurov im thinking more like a rotor script to build a local hosts out of, maybe, deedbotted things ?
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag it oughta, but it can run without it too, and it's seemingly easy enough to get started.
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: iirc mod6 had a pretty good guide to v
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: can, but with a great deal of manual sweat
mircea_popescu: the advantage of prototyping is that most major issues you will spend time working on, you encounter AFTER you're done designing.
ascii_butugychag: does anyone actually need ~more~ sweat on his box ?
mircea_popescu: what's the great deal ?
mircea_popescu: either cron the updater or run it whenever you please.
ascii_butugychag: how does updater know where to connect ?
mircea_popescu: how does v currently know where to connect to build the rotor ?
ascii_butugychag: my v connects nowhere
mircea_popescu: not the question.
ascii_butugychag: 100% filesystem-based
PeterL: so point the updater using a file
ascii_butugychag: i'm just not personally convinced that names gotta be automatic
mircea_popescu: nobody said they gotta be ?
ascii_butugychag: well it is implicit in the reference to zooko's triangle
thestringpuller: ascii_butugychag ben_vulpes mod6 : is there a way to look at what data messages/control messages are going over the wire or force their invocation in trb? or would that functionality need to be patched in to print to log/accept command from some source?
mircea_popescu: the reference was to explain to copypaste why he can't have both worlds / what the use of current dns arrangement is.
ascii_butugychag: thestringpuller: 'wireshark' (read-only)
mircea_popescu: if i had to bruteforce sha256 to come up with the signature for "" i probably wouldn't bother.
thestringpuller: ascii_butugychag: thx. that's what I was thinking. will do.
mircea_popescu: and it would definitely cost more than 10 bux.
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: i can't speak for others, but i was always ok with '6160E1CAC8A3C52966FD76998A736F0E2FB7B452 likes to call himself mircea_popescu so why not'
ascii_butugychag: the whole 'memorable centralized names' thing is inherently statal.
mircea_popescu: sure. but i do notice he never registered
mircea_popescu: (incidentally - if anyone here remembers the ancient discussion re naming services, which is how qntra ended up with that name at least in part - this system would be a necessarily optimal solution to that problem. it'd guarantee you need the minimum possible stroke count to get your desired destination.
ascii_butugychag: he probably also never drove a cart hitched to a pack of stray dogs
mircea_popescu: it'd also guarantee you wouldn't recognize it, but hey.)
ascii_butugychag: i see names as necessarily a local (machine) matter.
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag and there's no argument considered or offered that it's not statal. the discussion is that under some circumstances it is advantageous.
mircea_popescu: iirc i even said - what that guy complains of, we'd also do.
ascii_butugychag: aha i just got off a city train, likewise inherently statal, and advantageous
ascii_butugychag: incidentally there was a ragged black fella preaching about 9/11 inside job
ascii_butugychag: and usg spreading aids, chemtrails, etc.
ascii_butugychag: enjoyed a good hour of this
mircea_popescu: but he wasn't the conductor.
ascii_butugychag: no conductor
ascii_butugychag: 'don't believe me?!! look what's happening to yer greenbacks!!!111'
ascii_butugychag: -- direct quote
mircea_popescu: "Million Mask March: Many younger sovereigns are fascinated with ideas of a youth revolution, anarchy, and hacktivism (a portmanteau of hack and activism,) even though the majority of them are not particularly computer savvy. They often call themselves Anonymous and wear the mask and costume of the central character in the movie V for Vendetta."
mircea_popescu: this is pretty lulzy.
ascii_butugychag: ^ old nyooz ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29811 @ 0.00050889 = 15.1705 BTC [+] {3}
copypaste: Anonymous are (rightfully) viewed as losers, or USG themselves, by most thinking people
ascii_butugychag: cult film, what canyoudo
shinohai: Anons lel
mircea_popescu: "A few take it one step further by initiating violence in hopes of acting as a catalyst for this war. Timothy McVeigh’s goals, for example, weren’t just to murder 168 people, bring down a symbolic building, and punish the government for its role in the standoffs at Waco and Ruby Ridge. He wanted to make his mark in history by providing the Patriot movement with the spark that would light the fires of revolution.
mircea_popescu: Ironically, the Sovereign movement is made up of highly paranoid people who tend to believe that every violent act in recent history is a “false flag” operation set in motion by the evil government, so the odds of such an event triggering a Revolution are quite slim."
ascii_butugychag: where was this
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 12:44:25; punkman:
ascii_butugychag: sovereigns ?!!
mircea_popescu: incidentally, i finally got to the bottom of the shocking absence of anyone but caucasians from argentina (it is, literally, the whitest place on earth, up there with romania and i guess montana)
mircea_popescu: older folk explained it to me. back when they had their various wars, they confronted paraguayans at some point, and managed to sell the slaves on the theory that black men make the best warrirors for which reason they must take the first lines.
mircea_popescu: "y los paraguashos los mataron todos!"
mircea_popescu: i suspect that as the century-old (and probably more grounded) view of black people as naturally cowardly and militarily worthless gives way to this purely symbolic "black is the new manhood", extermination approaches.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26650 @ 0.00050953 = 13.579 BTC [+]
ascii_butugychag: aha, only black fella i saw in b-a was a pilot
mircea_popescu: some limited immigration was permitted of ex spanish african colonies
mircea_popescu: but it mostly provides street vendors, and i'd be surprised if it makes up that many ppm.
mircea_popescu: !up indiancandy1
indiancandy1: HEY GANG
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 14:13:52; mircea_popescu: lettuce see what trinque ben_vulpes mod6 asciilifeform davout jurov kakobrekla & co say when they wakeup
mircea_popescu: mod6 what'd be your definition/specificiation for the concept of sigil ?
mod6: << I do have a usage guide and quick-start guide... but maybe more of whats needed is not a reference manual, but an overall concept paper.
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 15:40:42; ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: iirc mod6 had a pretty good guide to v
mircea_popescu: so that people can correctly develop on top of a shared core
mircea_popescu: rather than you know... mess.
ascii_butugychag: a sigil is a tuple of a seal & the thing-sealed.
shinohai: !up ascii_butugychag
mircea_popescu: i thought sigil was the name of keys in v.
ascii_butugychag: i dun think i named them
ascii_butugychag: but this is a good one.
ascii_butugychag: << complicated. v is deliberately unusable with 'fuzzy' flow
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 13:19:15; mircea_popescu: << more importantly, it's not clear to me portage is even useful anymore. since v i mean.
mircea_popescu: so atm, as a working theory : the correct working of the nosuchdns script would be a) look in sigils directory and build list of sigils ; b) look in repository (where ?) for what's signed by the sigils ; c) create a sort -u list of the aformenentioned and dump it in hosts as > ratrher thjan >> ?
ascii_butugychag: (e.g., you don't know EXACTLY bitwise what you want at a step)
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 what'd be your definition/specificiation for the concept of sigil ? << by definition, for me its a cryptographic signature (embossment) of a given input.
mircea_popescu: mod6 so then what's a seal ?
mircea_popescu: do sigils produce seals or do seals produce sigils.
ascii_butugychag: let's sigils produce seals!
ascii_butugychag: this is the proper meaning.
mircea_popescu: i thought so too.
mod6: ah, to me that's what i took 'sigil' to mean, 'a seal'. I may misunderstand the language.
ascii_butugychag: sigil =~= rsa modulus
ascii_butugychag: seal ~= rsa modular exponentiant.
ascii_butugychag: (at least for now, at some point folks might start using lattice or even, fuck, lamport signatures)
mircea_popescu: maybe in 2017.
ascii_butugychag: (for n00bz: lamport signature is to signing approx. what otp is to encipherment)
mircea_popescu: rather approx.
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag what about this fuzzy flow ?
ascii_butugychag: approx same pain
ascii_butugychag: but less gain.
mircea_popescu: oh oh. yeah, re lamport.
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: as for 'portage', think about it
mircea_popescu: do tell ?
ascii_butugychag: the port tree does not specify the exact hash of executable built at each point
ascii_butugychag: because nobody has a deterministic builder
mircea_popescu: this simply means the port tree is curreently empty
mircea_popescu: and will have to be filled.
ascii_butugychag: it had, iirc, some (spotty) support for pgp
ascii_butugychag: but nothing that would add up to sanity
mircea_popescu: "smart people disagree because they do not share priors ; idiots disagree because they can't follow implications"
ascii_butugychag: first need deterministic buildatron.
ascii_butugychag: unfortunately this is not negotiable
ascii_butugychag: gotta have this x before you can even think about y-ing.
ascii_butugychag: and deterministic in the ~bitwise~ sense.
ascii_butugychag: as in, i build on nintendo, mircea_popescu on cray, we get same elf output so long as we asked for same target and used same src.
ascii_butugychag: all of the idiot indeterminate hiss on current boxes will have to go.
ascii_butugychag: (recall when we diffed rotor builds ??)
trinque: ascii_butugychag: what did you think of my simply checking the hash at the end of a build target?
trinque: did it for downloads; trivial to do for a produced binary as well
ascii_butugychag: as i said,
ascii_butugychag: no, not trivial.
ascii_butugychag: because gcc is full of shit
ascii_butugychag: it shits out system-specific crud into the build.
trinque: sure, trivial to check is all
ascii_butugychag: CHECK is useless
ascii_butugychag: needs to DIE
trinque: mkay, how are you going to get gcc shitting consistently then?
ascii_butugychag: for so long as the crud gets put there, you don't have deterministic build
ascii_butugychag: you 1) patch gcc
trinque: sure, I don't disagree
ascii_butugychag: 2) make sure src is EXACTLY SAME on all boxes.
ascii_butugychag: not same binary? won't hash correctly, flow graph cannot proceed.
trinque slaps his forehead
trinque: yes, having a make target fail when a hash fails is a good idea
ascii_butugychag: you can think of this idea as a more fascist version of 'make'
trinque: my makefiles do that
trinque: moves the built target out of the way if it fails
trinque: was easy
ascii_butugychag: presently, 'make' only cares that a particular file name comes to exist
trinque: read teh include, does precisely what you're saying
trinque: "CHECK_OR_DIE"
ascii_butugychag: but i was discussing a hypothetical v-tronic variant of 'portage'
trinque: yep, would that not be a tree of v-patches on a tree of makefiles?
ascii_butugychag: the thing to understand is that we are doing something quite analogous to the invention of... SANITATION.
trinque: could reinvent the makefile like "ebuild" or w/e, still a makefile
mircea_popescu: <trinque> "CHECK_OR_DIE" << word.
mircea_popescu liked that
mircea_popescu: "By the end of April, the couple was completely broke, unemployed, and effectively exiled from a community they had given up everything to join. Jerad reached out to some of the other local voices in the movement, but found that most such activists were big on words, minimal on action, and did little more than post anti-government pictures and rants on the Internet."
mircea_popescu: am i the only one who sees this eerily reminiscent of "bitcoin nodes" situation ?
ascii_butugychag: the pestilence of faux nodez?
mircea_popescu: until and unless you ban the blooming idiots, your copshootings take forever to propagate
ascii_butugychag: speaking of which - anybody else try my malleus mikehearnificarum ?
mircea_popescu: once you do, it's simultaneous.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3600 @ 0.00050992 = 1.8357 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: “This cop needs to be shot and then displayed for all others to see. Time to let these Nazi thugs who really runs the show here in this country. We need to string all of them up and make an example for the next generation that these acts will not be tolerated. They answer to us, not the other way around. Time we start asking the hard questions and lay the hammer down on those who truly deserve it.” Jerad Miller, M
mircea_popescu: ay 7, 2014
copypaste: where does this quote come from?
mircea_popescu: this 31 yo guy who together with his 22 yo wife shot a coupla cops and then got killed.
copypaste: ah, i meant the first one, my client was scrolled up
copypaste: By the end of April...
mircea_popescu: some obscure usg outlet.
mircea_popescu: "Examples of recent activity
mircea_popescu: September 9, 2014 – Eric Frein, an anti-government survivalist, is currently a fugitive wanted for shooting two Pennsylvania State troopers in an ambush, killing one and wounding the other. According to the State Police Commissioner, Frein had talked about committing mass murder in addition to killing officers. He was recently added to the FBI’s 10 Most Wanted list. General Anti-government
mircea_popescu: August 12, 2014 — Armed with an AK-47, ammunition, and propane canisters, Douglas Lee Leguin set a fire, then called 911 to report it. When Texas officers and firemen responded to the call, he shot at them in order to bring attention to his political complaints. Sovereign Citizen"
BingoBoingo: << Oh no jurov, the people are addicted to NOT having sugar.
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 13:12:42; jurov: They will laugh at you back with your cravings of sugar.
mircea_popescu: ironically... i believe if one were to add up the number of usg agent deaths as evident from prosecution attempts, and then compare that figure with the number of usg agent deaths as reported by the usg for various statistical purposes, a 10:1 difference wouldn't even be surprising.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8441 @ 0.00050414 = 4.2554 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: !up ascii_butugychag
ascii_butugychag: re: earlier thread: for historian types such as pete_dushenski: << my original source for concept in 'v'
assbot: Logged on 15-11-2014 00:27:45; asciilifeform: there was a three-man system
mircea_popescu: will come in handy once we actually have / can afford three men working on any one thing.
ascii_butugychag: << this could almost literally be a quote from that fella on the train this morning
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 16:35:36; mircea_popescu: “This cop needs to be shot and then displayed for all others to see. Time to let these Nazi thugs who really runs the show here in this country. We need to string all of them up and make an example for the next generation that these acts will not be tolerated. They answer to us, not the other way around. Time we start asking the hard questions and lay the hammer down on those who truly deserve it.”
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag or, for that matter, from me.
ascii_butugychag: the emphasis on local police is intensely usgtronic, however.
ascii_butugychag: !s gendarmerie
assbot: 28 results for 'gendarmerie' :
mircea_popescu: not so. you're wrong in this reading, and the usg itself very clearly proves they understand this (for instance in their attempts to hide behind the tired local sheriff dioscussed on qntra)
mircea_popescu: it would be a forced mistake for this gendarmerie to appear. and forced it must be.
ascii_butugychag: local police are all that presently stand between average u.s. pgp user and a dhs torture chamber.
mircea_popescu: i do not believe so.
ascii_butugychag: (in the aggregate, rather than the particular.)
mircea_popescu: local police is what currently stand between random acts of violence and the us president being raped on camera.
ascii_butugychag: consider brazil.
mircea_popescu: and while i have no particular taste for violence, i do wish to see obama, or his successor, raped on camera.
mircea_popescu: what of brazil ?
ascii_butugychag: chaos in the precincts, no presidential rape on camera ?
mircea_popescu: we don't agree on this point.
ascii_butugychag: which? the chaos? or br still having an unraped pres
mircea_popescu: i don't agree that brazil works as an example for your purpose.
mircea_popescu: but be that as it may : as the oathkeepers article derrided here yest nevertheless correctly points out: other people's problems,. to be resolved by those self-same other people.
ascii_butugychag: how else.
BingoBoingo: PeterL: I guess it can wait. I just like how somethign so cool has such an onomatapeia
ascii_butugychag: not by martians, no.
mircea_popescu: and mexico makes for a much better example, in that direction.
ascii_butugychag: how's that
BingoBoingo: !up PeterL
PeterL: BingoBoingo, I don't particularly want to go FOOF myself
PeterL: seems like a nasty chemical to work with
BingoBoingo: Ah, I see
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag numerous examples of pretorian guard heads that thought going with the usg is safe beheaded.
ascii_butugychag: by the next usg stooge, aha
ascii_butugychag: re: malleus thread: did mircea_popescu ever write an article about the error of 'postel's law' ?
mircea_popescu: and i specifically discuss the president rather than the "mayor of the palace" because really, having dagobert cut to pieces in the public place is a worse stigma on the obnoxious pepin than actually shortening him a head more would have been.
ascii_butugychag: after the successful test of malleus h., i've been tempted to write one
ascii_butugychag: looked for old work, found only this -
assbot: The Robustness Principle Reconsidered - ACM Queue ... ( )
mircea_popescu: please do. if i did it'd be fragmentary and so on
PeterL: I have had a reactor make a foof sound as it lit fire, not a pleasant experience (and that was just a simple combustion of THF, nothing explosive)
ascii_butugychag: for n00bz, 'postel's law' went something like 'be conservative in what you send, be liberal in what you accept.'
ascii_butugychag: it has the smell of good engineering and thereby became enshrined in the old canon
ascii_butugychag: but leads to tremendous ecological catastrophe
ascii_butugychag: (in the genuine sense of the word)
mircea_popescu: write the article. i'll read, and if need comment!
BingoBoingo: PeterL: Well, maybe this is a job for the indians or Chicoms
ascii_butugychag: specifically y. kreinin's text,
ascii_butugychag: 'How many problems did you have with hardware compared to OS compared to end-user apps? According to most evidence I got, JavaScript does whatever the hell it wants at each browser. Hardware is not like that. CPUs from the same breed will run the user-level instructions identically or get off the market. Memory-mapped devices following a hardware protocol for talking to the bus will actually follow it, damn it, or ge
ascii_butugychag: 'Low-level things are likely to work correctly since there’s tremendous pressure for them to do so. Because otherwise, all the higher-level stuff will collapse, and everybody will go “AAAAAAAAAA!!”'
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5277 @ 0.00051018 = 2.6922 BTC [+] {2}
ascii_butugychag: the few precious things that ACTUALLY WORK, consistently, every time - your cpu's adder, the bus, etc. SHIT on postel.
ascii_butugychag: by being ~extremely~ tight, and, importantly, well-specified, in what input they accept.
PeterL: garbag in, garbage out
mircea_popescu: your definition of "actually work" is different from HIS definition of "Actually work".
mircea_popescu: consider unpnp, it is the best example.
mircea_popescu: does bitcoin "actually work" with or without it ?
ascii_butugychag: there was a time when alu worked the way upnp 'works'
ascii_butugychag: know when?
ascii_butugychag: when 'computer' was a... job description
ascii_butugychag: and gurlz sat with abacus
ascii_butugychag: gurl hung over? wrong numbers come out
mircea_popescu: and an important thing to point out is also the b-a model.
ascii_butugychag: which is how babbage got his gig
mircea_popescu: #b-a is EXTREMELY liberal in what it accepts, and extremely conservative in who it accepts it from.
mircea_popescu: this happens to be how sexuate reproduction works, also, which makes me suspect it's a peak behaviour.
ascii_butugychag: this works for knights of the round table, but not so much for menial mechanics
mircea_popescu: and you know this how and wherefore.
mircea_popescu: cunt is mechanics.
mircea_popescu: !s cunt runs on perl
assbot: 0 results for 'cunt runs on perl' :
ascii_butugychag: 'assembly line with phds'
mircea_popescu: he BULLSHIT
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag nope. there isn't a person in every cunt, yet they all work.
ascii_butugychag: depends what means 'work'
ascii_butugychag: produce shaved apes fairly reliably, sure
ascii_butugychag: and the abacus gurlz produced... numbers!111 reliably.
ascii_butugychag: just not necessarily the ones you want.
ascii_butugychag: that's the whole notion of a mechanism - that it does something quite specific, in a quite-specific way, that is defined in advance
mircea_popescu: perhaps.
mircea_popescu: this looks to me like a large cave, actually.
mircea_popescu: !rate copypaste 1 HotWheels / 8chan guy
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP:
mircea_popescu: !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.copypaste.1:900d82e7c59245e329102c53b146c1d58cddb571df4cc512b93fdab831b55a4a
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for copypaste with note: HotWheels / 8chan guy
copypaste: thought you guys might get a kick out of this. i'm reading a highly contested law where i live (philippines)
copypaste: this is part of it
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag this thing, that we were discussing. seems to me to make the echo sounds typical of a huge cave, even if we only found a little hole.
assbot: Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet ... ( )
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: dan mocsny had a spiffy essay on man and mechanism in this sense, but afaik it is lost to history
ascii_butugychag: (google nuked it)
mircea_popescu: copypaste dpaste al;ways better for text. and do you kno what deedbot is ?
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag heh.
copypaste: it's a PDF, and it was made by Pinoys, so of course it doesn't copy right
copypaste: that's what i tried first, but it got all misformatted
mircea_popescu: pdf must die already omfg.
ascii_butugychag: mocsny had examples, e.g., man takes 'viagra', turning cock into a mechanism, in the sense that you walk into a forest and are not content to sit on ~any~ old surface, if you are there long enough you start making chairs, polishing the wood, etc
ascii_butugychag: mechanisms.
ascii_butugychag: rather than natural crud as-found.
copypaste: mircea_popescu: here's how Okular (KDE PDF client) interpreted it:
assbot: dpaste: 1GY12RN ... ( )
copypaste: i have no idea how they managed that.
ascii_butugychag: pdf can die when i can type in integral sign and not have it EVER pagebroken.
ascii_butugychag: then and not before.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> pdf must die already omfg. << yes.
mod6: !up ascii_butugychag
ascii_butugychag: i have yet to see a pill against pdf proposed here that doesn't reduce to mircea_popescu's broomstick.
ascii_butugychag: i own a printer. and i intend to keep owning a printer. i like paper. and i don't ever want to see a motherfucking pagebreak in the middle of an equation.
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag what "page"
ascii_butugychag: of dead wood.
mircea_popescu: eh quit smoking.
mircea_popescu: it's good for the environment and ok for you.
ascii_butugychag: eh make me a 1200 dpi screen then
ascii_butugychag: and i'll begin to think about it
copypaste: e-ink eschews the need for real paper
ascii_butugychag: copypaste: tops out at 300 dpi or so
ascii_butugychag: and no colour.
mod6: i like ascii txt
mircea_popescu: mkay, do what i did back before i had a dirigible :
ascii_butugychag has owned possibly every e-ink toy on the market
mircea_popescu: have your dad steal some fucking listing paper already!
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: i own a gigantic crate
mircea_popescu: this "page" nonsense is related to written matter like excel spreadsheets are related to business
ascii_butugychag: but matrix printer tops out at 100 or so dpi.
ascii_butugychag: and looks like shit
mircea_popescu: keep your stuff as rolls like god & newton intended
ascii_butugychag: y'know, rolls still have a horizontal width.
ascii_butugychag: that is fixed.
trinque: CSS has a "don't pagebreak this when printed"
ascii_butugychag: and if 'this' exceeds the pixel count of the page ?
ascii_butugychag: ever read knuth's tex book ?
ascii_butugychag: or at least understand why tex is complicated ?
trinque: you're asking if it can scale things down to fit the page?
trinque: no, I have not read a book on tex
copypaste: CSS has many rules, what matters is how they're implemented.
copypaste: <BLINK> still exists - in theory.
trinque: page-break-inside has pretty wide support
ascii_butugychag: scaling down pixelwise is idiocy if it results in an equation where i cannot read the sub- and superscripts, say.
trinque: so we use our brains and wrap whatever you don't want broken in a box with the above CSS
ascii_butugychag: trinque: i have yet to see even a sane implementation of, e.g., mathml.
trinque is merely making the humble claim that HTML > PDF
ascii_butugychag: and i am NOT interested in equations-as-bitmaps!
ascii_butugychag: because that is idiocy
ascii_butugychag: gotta be searchable, cut&pastable, etc.
ascii_butugychag: first-class citizens.
trinque: reasonable.
ascii_butugychag: and presently only achieved in pdf.
ascii_butugychag: (or rather, postscript, pdf is merely ps rebranded)
ascii_butugychag: ps is a 1980s thing, and was invented for perfectly valid reasons, the malicious bugginess of crapobat etc. are not inherent in it.
mircea_popescu: !up Guest72952
Guest72952: ur chatroom robbed my name
Guest72952: im hurt
mircea_popescu: what name ?
Guest72952: i went to eat
Guest72952: indiancandy1
mircea_popescu: <copypaste> <BLINK> still exists - in theory. << in practice. even used on trilema.
copypaste: no, just in theory. all the widely used implementations have dropped it, at least by default
ascii_butugychag: does anyone recall emma goldman's famous words re: dancing & the revolution?
copypaste: <blink> probably exists on trilema, but nobody notices it, more than likely
copypaste: except the odd reader using IE6 of course!
mircea_popescu: <ascii_butugychag> and presently only achieved in pdf. << have you lost it, man ?! what of pdf is searchable, cut/paster able etc ?
ascii_butugychag: 'if i cannot dance, i want nothing to do with your revolution'
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: pdf crapped out by latex is all of these !
ascii_butugychag: it is ~allowed for~ by the format
mircea_popescu: not what we're discussing here!
mircea_popescu: would it please you if i said adobe must die ?
ascii_butugychag: but iirc mircea_popescu is allergic to the whole notion of vector graphics for-printer
ascii_butugychag: which always struck me as quite broomsticky
mircea_popescu: i'm allergic at the notion of being fed it. i'm niot a printer.
mircea_popescu: just like i'm not interested in binary blob "signed" text.
ascii_butugychag: be fed baudot over smoke signal if you go in for that
ascii_butugychag: everything you see is 'binary blob', you just happen to own a convenient interpreter for it
trinque: how bout math in ascii sexps?
ascii_butugychag: trinque: again, rendered how
trinque: plain text
ascii_butugychag: i'm all for latex-like animal in sexp representation
ascii_butugychag: but i have no interest in READING it with naked eye!!
trinque: no, why the insane notation at all
assbot: Sa muare haterii mei (doi) on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( )
trinque: wasn't the original purpose of the sexp *this* ?
ascii_butugychag: trinque: absolutely motherfucking not
ascii_butugychag: not even mccarthy wanted to LOOK at sexps with eyes!
mircea_popescu: <trinque> how bout math in ascii sexps? << pretty much the only known solution to his problem
ascii_butugychag: they were meant as an intermediate representation
mircea_popescu: it's of course "counterintuitive" to she-brains
trinque: wat
ascii_butugychag: to be rendered by machine into a preferred form
ascii_butugychag: read 'lisp-1' paper.
mircea_popescu: !up ozymandias_
ascii_butugychag: by john m.
ozymandias_: If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution.
mircea_popescu: why can;t you dance ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31900 @ 0.00050698 = 16.1727 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: <ascii_butugychag> everything you see is 'binary blob', you just happen to own a convenient interpreter for it << one. ONE.\
mircea_popescu: there shall not be any more. and sure as fuck not infinity.
mircea_popescu: there may be exactly one.
ascii_butugychag: if i can't read, say, WITHOUT ANY degradation in quality, searchability, without superfluous page breaks or line breaks, 'can't dance'
mircea_popescu: you can't dance anyway. i was asking the ozy nboob
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: mno. you are, for instance, using irc client, which is not same as telnet, isn't showing you (or making you manually type in) the PING and PONG, say
mircea_popescu: hey ascii_butugychag are those graphs pngs ? hm ? HM ?
ascii_butugychag: so there is sure as hell more than one renderer.
mircea_popescu: you lose.
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: whatcha talking about, the text is selectable
ascii_butugychag: in those graphs.
mircea_popescu: the text is, yes.
mircea_popescu: are not.
mircea_popescu: i see no indication as to how the arrows go.
mircea_popescu: suppose i want the circles filled in red. what now ?
mircea_popescu: how do i SEARCH for "arrow pointing like this" ? hm ?
mircea_popescu: learn to alphabet already, ya buncha "visual thinker" illiterate louts!
ascii_butugychag: i agree, whole thing oughta be a sexpr underneath
ascii_butugychag: where you ~could~ search for 'red arrows' etc
ascii_butugychag: but UNDERNEATH.
ascii_butugychag: 'i wanna hug a gurl not a set of loose guts'
trinque: why is sexp such a good representation for programming but not math
ascii_butugychag: trinque: it is a good representation for directly manipulating ast
ascii_butugychag: this is rather like asking why a heap of guts is the correct interface for a surgeon but not a lover !
trinque: that statement does not make any argument for why the seemingly arbitrary syntax of mathematics is good
ascii_butugychag: for ~authoring~ maths - absolutely, gimme sexpr.
trinque: and applies as easily to C++ or any other hell
ascii_butugychag: trinque: because it is compact.
ascii_butugychag: and i don't always like the notation.;
ascii_butugychag: but a 1 line equation beats two pages of ascii crud.
guruvan: what's going on guise?
trinque: ascii_butugychag: there is python (or cursed rubby) which is "more compact" like your equation, yet I prefer lisp
trinque: why?
ascii_butugychag: and i'm not interested in writing word 'nabla' instead of ∇ every time !111
ascii_butugychag: trinque: compact at a price
trinque: this is why urbit did those glyphs or whatever they called them
trinque: why write "if" when you can ?!? or w/e
ascii_butugychag: now that's garbage.
ascii_butugychag: just like perl is.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41650 @ 0.00050414 = 20.9974 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: nothing much guruvan, some tweet of yours got linked
ascii_butugychag: people who ~live and die~ by motherfucking compact equations, ALWAYS invent hieroglyphs
guruvan: saw that - can hadly believe it's been so long since I've been in here
ascii_butugychag: just like mechanic buys a hammer and NOT a brick.
mircea_popescu: just like everyone tickles the woman in random way in private. this is math porn what you're proposing.
guruvan: I see you guys still remember how bitcoin works :)
ascii_butugychag: find me an actual working, practicing maths pro who disagrees with me on this.
mircea_popescu: possibly the only group left. there's been some sort of strange deluge or something.
ascii_butugychag: who wants to use motherfucking words
ascii_butugychag: as if it were euclid's greece
mircea_popescu: hey, euclid's greece did alright.
ascii_butugychag: that tower only gets so-high.
mircea_popescu: find me actual working programmers that want to use static linked binaries. like it were 1970s MIT!
trinque: still no reason put why using words and sexps is a good thing in programming, a bad thing in mathematics
mircea_popescu: !up ascii_butugychag
mircea_popescu: "that tower only gets so high!"
ascii_butugychag: trinque: a good and necessary thing in mathematics. but i don't want to view them with eyes!
trinque: give a reason! lol
ascii_butugychag: because 1-line equation can be 4 pages of sexp ???
mircea_popescu: let's make it plain : the forum language will be alphabetic, not hieroglyphic. how you paint the meaning from the letters into little icons in your own livingroom - your problem.
mircea_popescu: but i do not wish to see them, pray with them, and so following.
ascii_butugychag: then forum doesn't do maths.
mircea_popescu: the forum is whenever one talks to another publicly.
trinque: "because."
mircea_popescu: if you're not fucking, you're in the forum.
ascii_butugychag: and i notice that mircea_popescu links to bitmaps of gurlz, not homeric descriptions in 10,000 words...
mod6: hawtbutts.txt
mircea_popescu: <mircea_popescu> quick test : does blink for anyone but me ? << lemme reiterate
assbot: Sa muare haterii mei (doi) on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38569 @ 0.00050657 = 19.5379 BTC [+] {2}
trinque: if a guy were trying to understand the rationale behind using dense symbols in mathematics from this conversation, he would fail.
assbot: Butters now Supposed to run full nodes to use lite wallets : Buttcoin ... ( )
mircea_popescu: trinque yet the explanation is very simple : a certain set of brain circuitry is deeply involved in novel thought (about everything, including mathematics) and at the same time refractary to structure.
mircea_popescu: generally people trying to think in this particular sense try and dope it.
mircea_popescu: such as by using structureless or poorly structured "symbols".
mircea_popescu: this, obviously, is anathema to communication.
trinque: aha, seemed entirely psychological. "the mysterious symbols of the world of mathematics! greek letters even!"
mircea_popescu: it is also fundamentally why math "is hard". for every non-retarded young adult who believes math is hard you have a case of a child who developed his own, highly personal set of shitty symbols, and then never received a good explanation as to what the difference between his and "everyone else"'s is, so got lost.
mircea_popescu: because, obviously, the problem of translating between sets is untractable.
mircea_popescu: the problems people encounter with statistics are probably the most obvious place to study this issue.
BingoBoingo: Apparently social media is talking about asciilifeform's Malleum patch when they were largely afraid to discuss qntra on Oregon
assbot: Cyril Blanc on Twitter: "@MrChrisEllis @dnivi3 @PQMerkle" ... ( )
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo prolly a good time to link
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3300 @ 0.00050414 = 1.6637 BTC [-] {2}
guruvan: BingoBoingo: classic - banning light clients is now censorship - I'll let who I like connect to my nodes tyvfm
BingoBoingo: Seriously, what part of "MINE!!!1111!!!" don't people understand. Fucking socialism.
BingoBoingo: Anyways guruvan I'm glad you stopped by. Keep coming back, it works when you work it.
phf: pdf is ~plaintext~ container format that lets you encode an hierarchical structure of nodes of type. there's a handful of standard node types geared towards fixed page layout. there's also a handful of types that let you embed content, i.e. inline a binary blob <</Filter/FlateDecode/Length 10>>stream....10 bytes....endstream. latex produces pdfs with intimate awareness of the format's abilities, i.e. sensible plain text nodes that
phf: annotate visual layout nodes with semantically meaningful components (pages, paragraphs, etc.)
guruvan: thanks BingoBoingo - will be around more this year :) - it's gonna be a crazy year
mircea_popescu: !up ascii_butugychag
phf: but of course there's tons of companies that have some variation of "breakup my text into individual pictures of letters with precise x/y positioning, for extra points place the nodes in a random order so that tools like pdftotext barf"
BingoBoingo: guruvan: Seriously. Wasn't much to do in 2015 except lay groundwork for 2016
ascii_butugychag: << abuse is no argument. mechanic can bash in skull with wrench. does not follow that wrench ought to be soft.
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 17:57:01; mircea_popescu: such as by using structureless or poorly structured "symbols".
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 17:44:07; ascii_butugychag: find me an actual working, practicing maths pro who disagrees with me on this.
assbot: 1 results for 'let me formalize from:mircea' - #bitcoin-assets search
ascii_butugychag: will take my maximally-compact notations from my cold, dead hands.
guruvan: agreed BingoBoingo - it was a long year of much work, and much that's just been tossed by the end of it too
mircea_popescu: what, do i not count ? is systems theory not math ?
mircea_popescu: i'll tell you that i do prefer spellking out "sum x over y for i to j" than squiggling it up. heck, i have the girls read out bash commands explaining what they do.
mircea_popescu: and etc.
ascii_butugychag: philosophy. (not a dirty word, just maths that haven't been mechanized)
mircea_popescu: and we come back to the same "bad math" problem :
mircea_popescu: this "notationed" math is ALSO not math that's been mechanised.
mircea_popescu: it's just been shittified.
ascii_butugychag: and yes, e.g., maxwell's equations stated verbally might be more pleasing to a n00b
ascii_butugychag: but DEATH to somebody who needs to formally ~manipulate~ them.
ascii_butugychag: and needs to hold a MAXIMUM of thought from the page in his head
mircea_popescu: i never had a problem.
mircea_popescu: as we speak i hold all the pages i hold anyway.
phf: presumably mp disagrees with iverson's "notation as a tool of thought" paper in principle
BingoBoingo: <ascii_butugychag> philosophy. (not a dirty word, just maths that haven't been mechanized) << Prolly hard to mechanize "Fear and Trembling"
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu doesn't do mathematics, this is evident. perhaps he did at one point, but not now.
ascii_butugychag: what other notational element, i wonder, would he have us give up? matrix ?
ascii_butugychag: verbalize the elements?
ascii_butugychag: let's have verbal quaternion ?
mircea_popescu: which part of what i said dja actually disagree with ?
ascii_butugychag: the 'notation as obscurantist claptrap'
mircea_popescu: is this a symbol ?
ascii_butugychag: which this
mircea_popescu: 'notation as obscurantist claptrap'
mircea_popescu: why not use पॢ, i wonder.
ascii_butugychag: because it saves no space/time.
ascii_butugychag: because we did not have any reason to agree on the hieroglyph.
assbot: How Nvidia breaks Chrome Incognito | charliehorse55 ... ( )
mircea_popescu: if im stuck with reading some "maximum thought" concoction i have to spell it out and read it anyway.
mircea_popescu: now : i do not propose that this is either better, or obligatory for anyone else. whoever can fuck whatever bottle they most like. but i also can't let stand this theory that somehow obscurantist claptrap is the only way to think.
mircea_popescu: one can think just fine in an alphabet, no need to play the egyptian priest.
ascii_butugychag: as if using longhand made text somehow magically comprehensible to all and unpriestlike.
ascii_butugychag: !s variety speak
assbot: 57 results for 'variety speak' :
mircea_popescu: alphabet has its advantages.
mircea_popescu: unrelated to content.
ascii_butugychag: also has its crippling limitations.
mircea_popescu: that part's still in dispute.
BingoBoingo: From the mines: "Page C3 of today's NYT in print: "It's a good time to be David Bowie.""
mircea_popescu: <phf> presumably mp disagrees with iverson's "notation as a tool of thought" paper in principle << i do not. i do however disagree with the theory that tool is substitute sufficient.
mircea_popescu: yes you can figure out what quarks do in either matriceal or formulaic form. but if you can't afterwards SAY what the fuck you found to either heisenberg or schroedinger, the problem's in your head.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5550 @ 0.00050697 = 2.8137 BTC [+] {2}
phf: ah
mircea_popescu: there's many things in this "thought" bag.
phf: that's like chinese math, transformation on formulas carried out mechanically by memorizing the book
mircea_popescu: it's one thing to figure something out. it's another thing to figure out what you figured out. and so on.
mircea_popescu: if you're lucky and enough work has been put on doing the transforms that a function was found. plenty of times the transformation's either not obviously or not at all formalizable.
mircea_popescu: i can if you wish pick a page of strings theory for you to transform into any other theoretical framweork of your choice. but might as well take a page of source from gcc and write the lisp.
mircea_popescu: which reminds me of our very own brave sir gabriel_laddel and his thing
ben_vulpes: is HOSTALIASES a thing on linuxen besides ubuntu? v-dns sounds nifty, but i'd like to maintain my own entries.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes technically you could only put your own pubkey in there, and still let everyone else benefit from yours
mircea_popescu: while you only building your own.
mircea_popescu: anyway, afaik hostaliases is standaerd on all linuxen, but it runs into problems with sanitation, for things that run as root
mircea_popescu: such as ping or w/e
phf: i've spent most of my college years learning math by sometimes translating problem into sexp and running it inside lisp, to get a hang of the numeric or combinatoric behavior of the problem. there were parts of the problem that were easier to grok in sexp and then there were parts that i eventually wrote an approximation of latex formula reader for. i don't really have a clear idea of where the boundry is though
mircea_popescu: importantly, the boundary must be where another begins and you end.
mircea_popescu: this "you gotta run the city in which i wrote the letter to read the letter" thing is for the birds.
mircea_popescu: i ain't building no cities to read anything, ever.
phf: so what do you do when not everything fits in head?
mircea_popescu: you restructure the abstraction tree, which is clearly broken.
phf: hmm
mircea_popescu: you'll note that variety speak or no variety speak, i can explain the whole thing or any part to anyone of any persuasion. that i may not feel like expending the effort for any random derp is true, but also not germane.
mircea_popescu: this, importantly, is not a feat of magic.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27650 @ 0.00050413 = 13.9392 BTC [-] {3}
phf: my impression of traditional education is that when everything doesn't fit in your head, you continue cramming it, until in the flash of insight, a way of restructuring the tree comes to you. in this case notation allows for a caching mechanism. somewhere on a blackboard there's a cluster of meaning, that you no longer have in your head, because head is full, so having that cluster contain higher density of information allows for a more
phf: rapid load
mircea_popescu: !up ascii_butugychag
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 18:46:27; mircea_popescu: this "you gotta run the city in which i wrote the letter to read the letter" thing is for the birds.
mircea_popescu: phf to that the obvious counter is that sure, but before you've reached a point where you can actually speak of it... it's premature to speak of it ?
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 18:33:28; mircea_popescu: yes you can figure out what quarks do in either matriceal or formulaic form. but if you can't afterwards SAY what the fuck you found to either heisenberg or schroedinger, the problem's in your head.
ascii_butugychag: << notation is very often a tool for pseudointellectual flimflammery, yes
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 18:36:12; mircea_popescu: if you're lucky and enough work has been put on doing the transforms that a function was found. plenty of times the transformation's either not obviously or not at all formalizable.
ascii_butugychag: but so is 'plain language.'
mircea_popescu: only to noobs.
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 18:45:40; phf: i've spent most of my college years learning math by sometimes translating problem into sexp and running it inside lisp, to get a hang of the numeric or combinatoric behavior of the problem. there were parts of the problem that were easier to grok in sexp and then there were parts that i eventually wrote an approximation of latex formula reader for. i don't really have a clear idea of where the boundry is thoug
mircea_popescu: and rotor is mechanized comunion, strangely enough.
ascii_butugychag: and macsyma is mega-spiffy, using it as we speak even
phf: mircea_popescu: aaah now i see what you mean by obscurantist claptrap
mircea_popescu: look at lacan's "work" to truly see what i mean, and look at all the junk coming out of the usg's 3rd generation to truly know what i mean
mircea_popescu: actually... lemme take a screenshot here.
ascii_butugychag: and i notice they aren't abusing integral signs
ascii_butugychag: (the climatologists and 'economics' - perhaps are)
ascii_butugychag: but in either case, a liver largely consisting of scar tissue is not an argument against having had a liver in the first place.
mircea_popescu: << there, consider that.
assbot: dpaste: 0A0WRTM ... ( )
mircea_popescu: she has not actually anything to say to it. she;'s some 25 yo from nowhere who has figured out which side the butter's breaded on and is off to washington to live with alfie.
mircea_popescu: BUT if the symbol "activist" ran into any trouble... there's a newly minted "educator" symbol to the rescue.
ascii_butugychag: snorefest!
mircea_popescu: i don't think the postmodern symbological deluge has any sort of match or point of comparison.
ascii_butugychag: and yeah we have titanic dormitories full of these here
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38100 @ 0.00050815 = 19.3605 BTC [+] {5}
mircea_popescu: the only reason her bullshit sinks, however, is that i do not permit symbologistics.
mircea_popescu: the only reason she exists is the perhaps well intended, but also castrated inclination of educated males to go "oh, i wonder what the hyeroglypsh mean, can't be discarded out of hand"
ascii_butugychag: i thought it was because it was solid brick with no flotational volume ?
mircea_popescu: which by now is so pervasive even ged-educated nigger in the ghetto knows enough to scream "you don't know what it's like"
ascii_butugychag: nah she exists for the same reason electrical wires running to my house are warm
ascii_butugychag: just an unfortunate fact of thermodynamic loss
mircea_popescu: there's a reason unicode wars (you know, the thing with the integral ?) are mostly around "how to color figurines" now.
mircea_popescu: this "abstractions" thing mostly works for thine enemies.
mircea_popescu: you save some time, they get saved from extinction.
ascii_butugychag: if all of the railroads are in the hands of hitler, it does not follow that i ought to take an interest in travel by oxcart.
mircea_popescu: perhaps.
ascii_butugychag: not 'save some time.' but ABLE TO DEAL IN CONCEPTS of the level i deal in, AT ALL
mircea_popescu: yet all the wires being in the hand of hitler doth make you take an interest in gossipds.
ascii_butugychag: it isnt an oxcart
ascii_butugychag: but more like what i wanted out of the net to begin with.
mircea_popescu: well it isn't anything, so far.
mircea_popescu: i dunno who wanted "the railroads" out of reality.
ascii_butugychag: but since it was referred to, i assumed mircea_popescu was thinking of the idea.
ascii_butugychag: (on my own desk, it is more than an idea, but this is not official yet)
phf: as far as i understand, the point is to walk with mp to his vantage point to see something or other. for example that the railroad runs from hitlertown to the work camps. pretty sure he'll just be delighted if you invited him to your own private railroad that goes from your living quarters to your wineries.
ascii_butugychag: i'm entirely with iverson on this one.
ascii_butugychag: 'notation is worth +80 iq'
ascii_butugychag: in the right hands, yes
mircea_popescu: there is no such thing as iq.
mircea_popescu: in which sense, the quote is correct.
ascii_butugychag: tell this to the room-temp iq folks.
mircea_popescu: also, placebo is worth 20 hp.
mircea_popescu: (this has in point of fact been measured, and stands as such)
ascii_butugychag: when mircea_popescu calculates for own reckoning, does he use roman notation? if not, why not?
mircea_popescu: i have been known to
mircea_popescu: (in order to bother girlies.)
mircea_popescu: believe it or not, latin numeral calculation IS actually possible. and they had all sorts of tricks, too
ascii_butugychag: many things are ~possible~
ascii_butugychag: !s befunge
assbot: 6 results for 'befunge' :
ascii_butugychag: walking on your hands is also... possible
ascii_butugychag: and circus acrobats know some spiffy tricks.
mircea_popescu: more's the point : when you calculate for your own reckoning, do you use inches or milimeters ?
ascii_butugychag: usually the latter
mircea_popescu: know anyon who doesn't ? etc.
mircea_popescu will bbl.
ascii_butugychag: actually like most folks living in usa who do any machine work, i own two sets of everything.
ascii_butugychag: incl. drill bits.
ascii_butugychag: this is, i know, sad.
phf: what's wrong with a moscato anyway? :o
punkman: "Postel tarpit (n.) - A system that has tried so hard to accept all possible input that any change becomes backwards-incompatible"
punkman: wonky definition but I like the name
assbot: Cook Computing - Postel's Robustness Principle Revisited ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16200 @ 0.00051465 = 8.3373 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11150 @ 0.00050411 = 5.6208 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30500 @ 0.00051576 = 15.7307 BTC [+] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37900 @ 0.00051794 = 19.6299 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9100 @ 0.00051867 = 4.7199 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9500 @ 0.00050411 = 4.789 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 104171 @ 0.00050296 = 52.3938 BTC [-] {6}
BingoBoingo: <ascii_butugychag> but in either case, a liver largely consisting of scar tissue is not an argument against having had a liver in the first place. << B.. But Discriminashun, Cundishuns...
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2200 @ 0.00051198 = 1.1264 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29750 @ 0.00051239 = 15.2436 BTC [+] {2}
deedbot-: [Qntra] Zero-Conf Shenanigans Lead To Peter Todd Reddit Ban -
thestringpuller: damn i wanted that story
BingoBoingo: thestringpuller: You could have submitted something.
thestringpuller: i didn't know it was news cuz coinbase.
thestringpuller: next on bitcoin scammers in VC world: "Coinbase sues Peter Todd for 0.01btc"
shinohai: That sounds more like Roger Ver
thestringpuller: the dude who had to move to tokyo cause US wouldn't let him visit?
thestringpuller: "risk of becoming an illegal immigrant"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3007 @ 0.0005135 = 1.5441 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66306 @ 0.00051291 = 34.009 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21187 @ 0.00050737 = 10.7496 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15263 @ 0.00050217 = 7.6646 BTC [-]
deedbot-: [Qntra] Earliest Possible Date For XTCoin Fork Passes -
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6400 @ 0.00051011 = 3.2647 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17619 @ 0.00051986 = 9.1594 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3312 @ 0.00051763 = 1.7144 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: !up raedah
jurov: "I need your agreement in order to republish your contributions under the MIT license. The reason for relicensing Electrum is two-fold: firstly, we want to make Electrum more attractive to developers looking to integrate lightweight Bitcoin functionality into their systems, and a more permissive license is helpful in this regard."
jurov: "Secondly, we want to release a new version of Electrum for mobile devices and tablets. In order to make Electrum available in various app stores (such as Microsoft's Windows Store or Apple's App Store) we cannot keep the restrictive GPL license, as publishing Electrum on some of these stores may break the terms of the GPL."
jurov: gpl stuff can't be in appstore, rly?
mircea_popescu: are you going to give it ?
BingoBoingo: <jurov> gpl stuff can't be in appstore, rly? << Ya Rly
mircea_popescu: miserable move on their part, actually.
guruvan: you not a fan of MIT license mircea_popescu ?
mircea_popescu: but it seems par for the course. all the pimply faced wanna-be bill gates business majors know how to do anymore is cast out a net for suckers, wait until the rate of catch stops, and then try to spin it off and sell it.
mircea_popescu: so everything starts as gpl, welcomes any sucker foss head to contribute, then "progresses" to a mit license and hey, maybe apple wants to buy it!
jurov: probably not. but my contribution was like, 5 lines.
mircea_popescu: it's shameful. if you're going to prostitute yourself, at least do the world a favour and do it in istanbul, in the nude, in the dedicated quarter for ephebs
mircea_popescu: guruvan i like isis a lot more than i like mit.
mircea_popescu: and i'm one of the few guys that publicly burned the coran.
guruvan: well...that's just gonna mean they don't like you :-
mircea_popescu: they're idiots, but at least they're productive. unlike the mit imbeciles who
assbot: MIT genuises with lightbulb - YouTube ... ( )
BingoBoingo: !up ascii_butugychag
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 23:09:29; mircea_popescu: they're idiots, but at least they're productive. unlike the mit imbeciles who
mircea_popescu: yes. productive.
mircea_popescu: wake me up when your imperial/european drill bits produced a robot that routed the usg at tikrit.
ascii_butugychag: usg 'fought' to churn inventory and guarantee lockheed et al earmarks.
ascii_butugychag: and to prevent ghaddafis
mircea_popescu: mit ain't routing anyone. ever.
ascii_butugychag: mit is so that smart kidz dont tmsr.
ascii_butugychag: they actually called me up last month..
jurov: "Hello, thanks for asking, but I refuse to change the license of my contribution. I cannot with clear conscience recommend a Bitcoin wallet with closed source modifications. Would you use one yourself, really?"
jurov: ^ mi rather mild-mannered reply
mircea_popescu: no but you don't understand, they're only trying to.
mircea_popescu: might even make a good qntra piece. this sort of miserable behaviour needs some castigation.,
mircea_popescu: fucking emblematic of the new usa : "1. hey, we're trying to save the world, help us ; 2. hey, the rate at which new people join to help us dropped off so now we'll build an oil refinery instead, maybe shell wants to buy one!"
mircea_popescu: fuck you with a fucking stick, who the heck is supposed to fall for this ?
mircea_popescu: who. 20year olds, obviously. and... they do.
mircea_popescu: same fucking thing with "bitcoin dev companies", however many different groups are running this scam by now.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23040 @ 0.00050125 = 11.5488 BTC [-] {2}
jurov scans his private #electrum log, omfg deze gems
jurov: <ThomasV> [20151130 17:22] Tribaal: I would not be too concerned about closed-source forks, in the case of Bitcoin software.
jurov: <Tribaal> [20151130 17:23] ThomasV: How so? If my fork steals your wallet, I would be pretty sure you'd mind :)
jurov: <ThomasV> [20151130 17:24] that's my point. I think nobody would use a closed source fork
jurov: i'm tired and want sleep, whoever is doing qntra, can have it
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 80527 @ 0.00051023 = 41.0873 BTC [+] {2}
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> might even make a good qntra piece. this sort of miserable behaviour needs some castigation., << for srs jurov
BingoBoingo: It can wait for you to wake up
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9631 @ 0.00051024 = 4.9141 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: in other news, the new merchant of venice is actually 40% done!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9000 @ 0.00051687 = 4.6518 BTC [+] {2}
asciilifeform: l0l neato
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15150 @ 0.00051279 = 7.7688 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: ;;later tell kakobrekla
assbot: dpaste: 0B92T3F ... ( )
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: in other nyooz,
asciilifeform: ~considerably~ smoother performance on the trb+malleus nodez
asciilifeform: (vs historical)
asciilifeform: may be simply on account of the ~80% drop in traffic, though.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell BingoBoingo it is not an accurate description of malleus patch to say that it only nukes peers using bloom filters. it nukes any peer which issues any command whatsoever unsupported in trb.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I haven't seen any other commands in debug.log yet. Perhaps leave a comment on post?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: it won't show up in the log as a distinct thing
asciilifeform: just 'heathen.'
BingoBoingo: I mean before using the patch. I've only seen bloom filter from multibit/Shildebach et al hit my node.
BingoBoingo: Other commands may emerge, but bloom filter request is the only one I have seen in the wild.
mircea_popescu: anyway, maybe all this "soft-fork" bullshit is really a good opportunity to start a #b-a mining pool.
mircea_popescu: anyone want to run a pool ?
asciilifeform: on submarine ?
mircea_popescu: let's not get overdramatique.
asciilifeform: interesting idea, but what's to keep a public pool from infinite ddos 24/7.
BingoBoingo: Who says public pool? Or single point of failure? Why not fork p2pool?
mircea_popescu: iirc p2pool was unfixably slow.
assbot: Software - Bitcoin Wiki ... ( )
shinohai: <<< /me would certainly try to obtain miners to mine on a #b-a pool
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 00:59:53; mircea_popescu: anyway, maybe all this "soft-fork" bullshit is really a good opportunity to start a #b-a mining pool.
mircea_popescu: shinohai a few people have asked, which is why i said.
shinohai: It would be handy to mine own tx's but would require considerable hashpower, no?
mircea_popescu: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 392907 | Current Difficulty: 1.0388034081545589E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 393119 | Next Difficulty In: 212 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 5 hours, 45 minutes, and 15 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
mircea_popescu: not really. to guarantee same-day inclusion, you'd need 1/10/24 * 10^11 = 0.5% of the current hash rate. to guarantee the usual thing wires guarantee (2-3 days) proportionally less.
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 446.27, vol: 7498.99347541 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 444.001, vol: 6295.41647 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 446.8, vol: 14550.86099406 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 447.226002, vol: 37121.74600000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 447.37, vol: 112.39650116 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 454.453760989, vol: 15.66709175 | Volume-weighted last average: 446.714667061
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7300 @ 0.00051688 = 3.7732 BTC [+]
mod6: ftr: im still laughing about kako's buddy who needed the condoms in thailand
shinohai: Good to have friends that will ship you rubbers just like that when necessary.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33732 @ 0.00050901 = 17.1699 BTC [-] {5}
mod6: ikr, solid guy
mod6: would trade again
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 01:13:37; mircea_popescu: not really. to guarantee same-day inclusion, you'd need 1/10/24 * 10^11 = 0.5% of the current hash rate. to guarantee the usual thing wires guarantee (2-3 days) proportionally less.
asciilifeform: at a given time.
asciilifeform: else you slip.
mircea_popescu: and it being a random process, "guarantee" is necessarily an average sort of concept.
ben_vulpes: kilo-log-line day, huh?
mircea_popescu: good stuff.
ben_vulpes: i caught snippets over the oar, looking forward to it.
ben_vulpes: << whattabout the pronounceable mnemonic hashes a la urbit?
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 13:56:49; mircea_popescu: yes, naming can work like that, if and 94875984375983.jksldak are the same to you.
ben_vulpes: fantub tasslyb or what was it
mircea_popescu: and let me guess, you'll get them from... hets ?
ben_vulpes wonders if his destroyer still floats
ben_vulpes: hets?
assbot: Logged on 08-05-2015 01:24:40; assbot: dpaste: 2E0CYZQ: Speakables ... ( )
asciilifeform: pretty useless
asciilifeform: ^ my implementation of mr. mold's early syllables
asciilifeform: (he changed them out later)
ben_vulpes: why useless? and changed to?
asciilifeform: some others
asciilifeform: and useless in that i never found a serious use for it
ben_vulpes: ;;rated gernika
gribble: You have not yet rated user gernika
ben_vulpes: mwell i owe ya one
mircea_popescu: if you think i'm about to load my head with random strings...
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11200 @ 0.00051688 = 5.7891 BTC [+]
ben_vulpes: << eve, but with btc, and on an island not in space
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 15:21:54; copypaste: i very much love the concept of a 3d game with a bitcoin economy. i've played a few, but all poorly done.
mircea_popescu: nah, eve has an inflation problem larger than the usg's.
ben_vulpes: in the sense of a game that is most effectively played with spreadsheets.
mircea_popescu: the "spreadsheets in space" thing referred to how its graphics/engine is absent,
mircea_popescu: not to how you play it.
ben_vulpes: you played trader without spreadsheets?
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> nah, eve has an inflation problem larger than the usg's. << And a problem where some things had absolutely no market anywhere, like slaves.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes sure.
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu even got suicide ganked once
BingoBoingo: He was mining in his little pickup truck with a new recruit and then he got FOOF'd
mircea_popescu: yeah hey bb weren't you in 1btc ?
mircea_popescu: how come you're not euloring ?!
BingoBoingo: Newsing is awfully time consuming.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the bitcoin eve society had like... a space station fully built and i dun remember how many of the not-titan class ships, a dozen or some shit
BingoBoingo: The things I have to see
mircea_popescu: but the game is incredibly boring.
BingoBoingo: The fucking "jumps" were the worst part of hauling
ben_vulpes: sinfully boring.
mircea_popescu: in tyhe end i was using that society, what was their name
ben_vulpes: and the mega-pvp, even worse.
mircea_popescu: i think i had them haul 5 bn worth of isk in 10-20mn installments
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34800 @ 0.00051688 = 17.9874 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: but i do recall BingoBoingo did a bunch of hauls in one of those what were they called ? obelisk ?
BingoBoingo: Nah the smaller thing. By the time I trained to the obelisk is about when I bored out of eve. Fucking jumps
BingoBoingo: The prospect of locking up CPU time for 8 hour autopilot runs + normal Jita lag was too much
mircea_popescu: anyway, iirc what we did was, we had a full space station that produced fuel
ben_vulpes: time based skilling, bleh.
mircea_popescu: and fuel was in high demand so we bought some precursors from jita and sold the fuel to the people in low sec
mircea_popescu: that and some worm hole digging, i recall going with hanbot
BingoBoingo: time based skilling was nbd
mircea_popescu: and with that other chick, what was her name
mircea_popescu: dude how long ago was this ? 2012 ? 13 ?
ben_vulpes: dang.
mircea_popescu: feels like 30 fucking years, i reemember it as from under a concrete slab.
BingoBoingo: Summer 2013. After I'd visited here and before I was sitting here full time
mircea_popescu: i remember we kinda had enough of the shit at the same time and that guy, what's his name, the accountant guy ended up inheriting it all
mircea_popescu: smickles, that's right!
ben_vulpes: holy shit smickles
mircea_popescu: ;;seen smickles
gribble: smickles was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 1 year, 30 weeks, 5 days, 21 hours, 45 minutes, and 38 seconds ago: <smickles> easily a few more bil in things like BPOs and BPCs
ben_vulpes: ;;seen smickles
gribble: smickles was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 1 year, 30 weeks, 5 days, 21 hours, 45 minutes, and 40 seconds ago: <smickles> easily a few more bil in things like BPOs and BPCs
BingoBoingo: Ah, I missed that part
mircea_popescu: yeah cuz we had a fully researched or whatever it was ? bp to make that battleship
mircea_popescu: the good one.
BingoBoingo: Even jurov got sucked into it with the S.MPOE/1BTC share convertability
mircea_popescu: that alone was like 1bn then. prolly 15 bn by now lol
BingoBoingo: Inflation is a hell of a drug
assbot: North Korea Hwasong Gulag ... ( )
asciilifeform can't wait for a map of washington made in pyongyang
asciilifeform: with names.
danielpbarron: ben_vulpes> you played trader without spreadsheets? << what is it for? I use strictly txt files in my various Eulora activities
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30673 @ 0.00051044 = 15.6567 BTC [-] {2}
thestringpuller: LOL smickles has only beeng gone a year. I thought it was longer than that.
ben_vulpes: year and thirty weeks
thestringpuller: i see him on steam occassionaly. must have taken early retirement.
ben_vulpes: danielpbarron: recalculates values whenever inputs change?
ben_vulpes: danielpbarron: has equations in his text files?
danielpbarron: in one called profit.txt yes
asciilifeform: what's in ruin.txt ?
danielpbarron: cat: ruin.txt: No such file or directory
ben_vulpes: << aheha this from the guy who when looking at a dsl for a rules engine complained "but but what's wrong with the sexprs?!"
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 17:40:46; ascii_butugychag: and i'm not interested in writing word 'nabla' instead of ∇ every time !111
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> what's in ruin.txt ? << Enemies whose char would make suitable black for darkening wizard tower stones
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: wai wut
ben_vulpes: 'tis in the log
asciilifeform: rules engine ?
asciilifeform digs futilely for the thread
ben_vulpes sighs, goes looking as well
ben_vulpes: doubt rules engine made it into the log
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6908 @ 0.00050125 = 3.4626 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: at any rate, the question of sexprs vs infix ('rich syntax', in derp terminology) is orthogonal to '∇ vs nabla' thing
asciilifeform: and (λ (x y) (....)) ~is~ superior to (lambda...
asciilifeform: and the keyboard of a civilized person ~ought to~ have a alt-graph metakey and a λ printed on the front facet of the L.
asciilifeform: and to compare this to the idiot 'smiley' crapolade is lunacy
asciilifeform: shit, shinola. both black, 'spreading works', the similarity ends there.
ben_vulpes: motherfucker
ben_vulpes: where did this come from and where did it go
asciilifeform: lemme guess, it was a gabriel_laddel thread
ben_vulpes: doubt it.
ben_vulpes: memory implies it was a link followed from some acl conference sponsors list.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16400 @ 0.0005035 = 8.2574 BTC [+] {4}
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: can you recall any ?
asciilifeform: i must've slept through this.
asciilifeform: as did assbot.
ben_vulpes: i've been digging, but the line's not showing in the logs.
ben_vulpes: not even searching for from:ben_vulpes asciilifeform http
ben_vulpes: the sample code had some declarative rules, and your complaint was something along the lines of "why'd they get rid of the parens?!"
ben_vulpes shrugs
ben_vulpes: 'tis lost.
asciilifeform: let's do a brick-in-your-face-obvious illustrative case.
asciilifeform: λf. (λx. f (x x))(λx. f (x x))
asciilifeform: lambda f. (lambda x. f (x x))(lambda x. f (x x))
asciilifeform: (the alert reader will recognize the infamous 'y combinator.')
asciilifeform: now WHICH ONE IS READABLE
mircea_popescu: the latter.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu speaks like a fella who never has to.
asciilifeform: has to any of it.
mircea_popescu: look... i read what i read. what do you want from me ?
asciilifeform: idk, get out old notebook from school, and see how many pages it'd take you to ~unambiguously~ and ~rigorously~ english-verbalize, e.g., green's theorem ?
mircea_popescu: in 6th or 7th grade at some point i discovered sums and the sigma. i was enchanted for about a year. throughout highschool i just wrote them out.
mircea_popescu: because it seriously is no fucking gain.
asciilifeform: and when you have 11 of them nested ?
asciilifeform: also wrote out ?
mircea_popescu: besides the fact that it paginates poorly.
mircea_popescu: if you have 11 nested you fucked something up.
asciilifeform: then you're writing a graphics engine, mayhap
mircea_popescu: look : if you have 11 sums nested you fucked something up.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13750 @ 0.0005086 = 6.9933 BTC [+] {3}
asciilifeform: what next, if i need to define an operator i also fucked up ?
asciilifeform: or to use more than 26 variables ?
mircea_popescu: just define whatever the fuck and work on one sum at a fucking time already.
mircea_popescu: if i see void alfun (1, 2, 3, 4 .. 26); ima think you can't code.
asciilifeform: who said code.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu didntcha do peano, frege, et al? how did you manage with 26 letters ?
mircea_popescu: by looking at parts at a time!
asciilifeform: we ran through all of latin, greek, went through much of hebrew on one chalkboardfull
mircea_popescu: the conceptual equivalent of writing fucking subroutines you nut you.
asciilifeform: reusing letters in 1 proof
asciilifeform: is like reusing
asciilifeform: toilet paper.
asciilifeform: during the course of ONE SHIT.
asciilifeform: washing it, yes.
mircea_popescu: dude get out. there's 7 bn people alive today, not to mention historically, and you think having twenty or a hundred slices of tp makes a difference ?
mircea_popescu: they're all equally dirty anyway.
asciilifeform: typically the only way any of it makes a difference to me is between grasping and not-grasping a thing.
mircea_popescu: well so fine, have at!
mircea_popescu: i'm not telling you how to grasp things, you're the one that keeps going "no true scotsman would go around without a parasol" or w/e.
mircea_popescu: be the scotsman with a parasol, what do i care.
asciilifeform: my position was 'maths can only adequately happen on a graphical terminal'
mircea_popescu: this is a self-ridiculing proposition.
asciilifeform: relatedly, i spend a great deal of time in uni maths library. to this day. and every so often i end up picking up a thing that was typeset on the cheap, in the dark ages, using typewriter
asciilifeform: EVEN THERE folks laboured to ascii-art the sigmas etc.
asciilifeform: inked in the integral signs.
mircea_popescu: what can i tell you.
mircea_popescu: yeah i had a raft of that retarded shit too
mircea_popescu: machine written for text and then hand drawn for symbolics
asciilifeform: didja ever walk up to the author, and ask 'why didntcha do plain text like euclid'
mircea_popescu: i don't remember any of it. nobody does, people who wrote it included.
mircea_popescu: yes, actually. i generally said this si fucking stupid and you people suck.
asciilifeform: aha but generally
asciilifeform: or what, mircea_popescu would've stayed in mathematics if not for the squigglies
mircea_popescu: there's plenty of squigglies in physics too. i never much cared.
mircea_popescu: there's no particular boon to understanding to be had from squiggling.
asciilifeform: it isn't about magical force of squiggle, but elementarily FITTING A THING ON A PAGE that would not otherwise fit in one eyeful.
mircea_popescu: my brain doesn't work by thje eyefull iom not a fucking toad omfg
asciilifeform: and if your working memory is titanic and you laugh, all that is needed is to come up with an example that straddles the line ~for you~
mircea_popescu: do you think i presently notated the merchant of venice so 3555 liunes fit in one page ?
mircea_popescu: it's still in my fucking head. i read it. wtf.
asciilifeform: just like you can brag about being a muscle man, but i can always fill a knapsack that you cannot move with, so you cannot say 'it does not matter what a knapsack weighs!111'
asciilifeform: merchant of venice != theorem
mircea_popescu: and you're gonna paint it red and fix it ?
mircea_popescu: because why!
asciilifeform: same basic idea as cpu cache
asciilifeform: there is such a thing as fits-in-head
mircea_popescu: i'm not a fucking cpu.
asciilifeform: your head is a finite thing.
mircea_popescu: yes, and your option is to either do a retarded sort of implicity tree by using hyeroglyphicd
asciilifeform: just like everybody;s.
mircea_popescu: or else make the thing plain text and sort it in your head like a functioning brain already.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6285 @ 0.00051687 = 3.2485 BTC [+] {3}
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu posts the plaintext rigorous green's theorem, i promise to read it..
mircea_popescu: you people.
mircea_popescu: that dude goes hey, rewrite this chunk of the english cannon, it is broken
mircea_popescu: then you with this
mircea_popescu: what do you think i am, a race horse ?
asciilifeform: if i have to be shiva, mircea_popescu can be a racehorse!111
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9165 @ 0.00051704 = 4.7387 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: half the fucking things i do here each day and every day is exactly that, force people to properly plaintext their shit.
mircea_popescu: and he still wants a proof because the log is not here or something
asciilifeform: speaking of this & earlier thread, a treatise on 'v' philosophy is definitely a necessary thing
asciilifeform: i tried to write it, actually, and ran out of juice
asciilifeform: ended up writing v instead
asciilifeform: easier.
mircea_popescu: got any pieces ?
mircea_popescu: i don't see this emerging other than by piecemeal correction, honestly.
asciilifeform: nothing immediately usable. might take another stab at it on the train tomorrow
asciilifeform is watching the scrolling logs from his trb nodez, it is like music, so smooth
asciilifeform: no 'blackholing', etc., any of it.
asciilifeform: (since patch)
mircea_popescu: For any smooth, simple closed positively oriented curve in a plane, if two functions are defined on any open region containing the area bounded by that curve, should those functions have continuous derivatives in the region then the integral over their sum is the integral over the region's integration of their differential.
mircea_popescu: how's that.
asciilifeform finds himself mentally converting this to proper format !11
asciilifeform: also reminds me of canonical ru kidz rhyme,
asciilifeform: 'Тело, впернутое в воду Выпирает на свободу. С массой выпертой воды Тела, впертого туды!'
asciilifeform: (archimede's law)
mircea_popescu: let me put this another way : the first, the cheapest and most formidable weapon every science teacher has to ferret out the cheat
mircea_popescu: is to hold up a piece of exam paper and say "now explain to me what's in here".
asciilifeform: now this, yes
mircea_popescu: you know this is so. you know it distinguishes the pass from the cheat.
asciilifeform: ought to include even building rubber band model.
mircea_popescu: so then... what are we on about!
asciilifeform: the canonical representation that is to be worked with by a serious user.
asciilifeform: (vs a kid asked to prove that he hadn't cribbed.)
asciilifeform: can you picture a computeralgebratron that eats english ?
asciilifeform: that doesn't make user want to eat his pistol ?
mircea_popescu: but this is not the point!
mircea_popescu: i eat it.
mod6: i like the idea that we could have a regular char set, like 127 bit ascii, and do everything from this. and if you need Sigma, its SIG, or LAMBDA, its LMA or Absolute Value, ABS.
mircea_popescu: no fucking way, this isn't how derive worked!!11
mircea_popescu: pssshhhh
asciilifeform: mod6: visit a university library and read the atrocious typewriter manuscripts.
asciilifeform: and weep.
mod6: haha.
mircea_popescu: did you or did youi not type ABS(x dx) in derive until you dropped!
mod6: it just seems like stuff like this works well: <+mircea_popescu> For any smooth, simple closed positively oriented curve in a plane, if two functions are defined on any open region containing the area bounded by that curve, should those functions have continuous derivatives in the region then the integral over their sum is the integral over the region's integration of their differential.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sure did
mod6: and then when it doesn't there's alway some short hand one could do without resorting to unicode or PS.
asciilifeform: mod6: now verbalize a tensor.
mircea_popescu: "a tensor"
asciilifeform: or so much as an ordinary quaternion.
asciilifeform: connection from dropped (banned)
asciilifeform: connection from dropped (banned)
asciilifeform: connection from dropped (banned)
asciilifeform: connection from dropped (banned)
asciilifeform: ^ lulzz
mod6: i dunno? sig = [T(e1)T(e2)T(e3)]
asciilifeform: ahahahaha but not verbal !!
asciilifeform: you used... notation!11
mircea_popescu: and for the record : NO THEOREM, no rule or function or anything in ALL OF MATH can survive without the [usually more important] limits and domain definition.
mod6: something like that? im not really only saying verbal. im just saying, hey, lets practice safe ascii.
mircea_popescu: i couldn't care less you use sigma or the integral. what matters is the foreword
asciilifeform: there is always chunks we haven't any shorthand for, yes
mircea_popescu: now simbolize "positive oriented curve"
mircea_popescu: so then what the bloody hell.
asciilifeform: verbal dressing is 'part of balanced diet.'
mircea_popescu: the "symbolized" math thing makes kids stupid
mircea_popescu: (they focus on the domain and fail to comprehend the limit. it's how we neded up with the power rangers in the first place.
mircea_popescu: the heresies of barbarians are not accidental, but driven by fundamental stupidities of their culture.)
asciilifeform: they are driven by what the broken pieces are that they find to glue into mosaics, are of.
asciilifeform: whether roman frescoes or 19th c. mathematics.
mircea_popescu: i bet you they all grew up as kids among a herd of wolves worshipping the symbol, never once thinking to make them write it down in words.
mircea_popescu: and then you wonder why idiot anglos have "issues" with word problems.
mircea_popescu: wonder away.
asciilifeform: wai wut
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> "a tensor" << haha, i missed this
asciilifeform: 'tenser, said the tensor' (tm) (r) (bester)
mircea_popescu: yeah well ?
asciilifeform: lacan et al made the exact same kind of salad from words
mircea_popescu: not at all.
asciilifeform: as mathemasturbatory abusers from symbols
mircea_popescu: nah, those are just idiots, the lacan troop were actual trolls.
mircea_popescu: guy had a (rather transparent) profit motive.
asciilifeform: takes an expert entomologist to distinguish the result
mircea_popescu: this it does.
mod6: I guess this does actually effect us a bit -- i mean, lets say we wanna do some math modeling or expound upon some properties of something fourier whatever, and send it to the ML... now you gotta have it in ascii otherwise you can't sign it.
mircea_popescu: the reason we spend so much ink on this is that it is in fact the biggest problem we met yet.
asciilifeform: y'know, just because you force the 8th bit of every bt to 0 doesn't make it 'human-readable'
asciilifeform: as the xml bozos taught us, to much grief
asciilifeform: in fact, this is exactly the kind of error that gave us xml
mircea_popescu: you're so far not content with A FINITE ALPHABET!
asciilifeform: finite includes the symbols of cultured men
mircea_popescu: you can't finite the infinite arbitrarily.
mircea_popescu: for all you knwo your kid will come up with novel shit.
asciilifeform: eh that's easy
asciilifeform: culture stopped.
asciilifeform: but in point of fact glyphs ought to work like amiga .MOD music file format.
mircea_popescu: anyway, i'm not prepared for this matter to get a ruling.
mircea_popescu: much further argument must yet be heard.
asciilifeform: i.e. you would embed the glyph, if it is a non-traditional one, and represented as an s-expr driving a vectorizer
asciilifeform: in a logical way
mircea_popescu: "as the xml bozos taught us, to much grief"
asciilifeform: (in .MOD, instrument patches are part of the file)
asciilifeform: i'm half-convinced that naggum painfully killed himself to pay for xml.
mircea_popescu: they tried the same sleigh of hand, basically. "oh, driving a vectorizer in a logical way"
mircea_popescu: how about you drink benzene and talk to the stove.
mircea_popescu: in a logical way.
asciilifeform: thing is, anything the xml folks did was doomed to be an act of retardation. because they ~were~ the wrong people.
asciilifeform: the wrong people had a seat at the table.
mircea_popescu: ya im sure you're special.
mircea_popescu: the secret to winning the war isn't to make the other motherfucker die for his country. it's to discourage this motherfucking from thinking he can walk up the wall.
asciilifeform: it was a classical 'committee' thing.
mircea_popescu: so it was.
mircea_popescu: it'd have failed even more miserably if god himself sat with budhha and fucked the actual shiva on that very table.
asciilifeform: the whole xml (actually sgml, the root of the disease) crock of shit was fundamentally an intellectual crime in that it set out by pretending that sexpr did not exist, that lisp never happened
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> how about you drink benzene and talk to the stove. << haha
asciilifeform: and 'reasoned' from there
asciilifeform: and bloviating louts got to 'solve' the 'problem'
asciilifeform: in the now very familiar usgtronic sense.
mircea_popescu: they did all sorts of stupid shit, but again, the whole "a wizard did it, to a vectorizer, logically" is enough to sink that ship.
mircea_popescu: everyone always wanting to have jets.
asciilifeform: 'truetype', the thing that made the adobe partners rich, was actually this
asciilifeform: and it worked.
mircea_popescu: ;;google truetype exploit
gribble: Project Zero: One font vulnerability to rule them all #1: Introducing ...: <>; Microsoft Windows TrueType Font parsing zero-day vulnerability ...: <>; Recent Zero-Day (1 more message)
asciilifeform: you are actually looking at it right now.
asciilifeform: exploitability does not drop from the sky, no.
phf: could be looking at bdf/pcf
asciilifeform: i can write an exploitable calculator, what of it.
mircea_popescu: ima give this theory a very cautious maybe.
asciilifeform: incidentally, sgml was ibm grasping for a relevance toehold
asciilifeform: knowing that it Musted Die
asciilifeform: searched for a way to sink a claw into the living.
asciilifeform: like any proper кощей.
asciilifeform: ibm cavorted in a 'lisp never happened' parallel universe for a loooong time.
asciilifeform: arguably, even NOW.
asciilifeform: and the bloody mess worked as a magnet for ten thousand insect men
asciilifeform: fond of 'libraryizing', categorizing, classifying, filing and misfiling.
asciilifeform: see, e.g., RDF/
asciilifeform: these buggers ~won~, in the sense of extinguishing all life in anything they touched.
mircea_popescu: eh, life managed to extinguish itself on its very own well enough.
trinque: asciilifeform │ and (λ (x y) (....)) ~is~ superior to (lambda... << with this I have no problem at all.
asciilifeform: l0l trinque missed mega-thr3ad
trinque: :( but I am enjoying it!
phf: apropos i like how cl does it, there's a set of characters that are predefined to be standard and portable, and it's basically an mp set: alphabet, digits, top row, handful of controls like newline. each character has a numeric code and a verbose name #\a #\b #\space #\newline. there's a handful of predicates that let you query characters basic nature, upcasep/downcasep/whitespacep. that's it. an implementation though can choose to
phf: include any number of extra characters, say code 120 #\lambda, and also decide how it wants to present them to console/file (say, by writing unicode, or letting user choose the encoding). so a maxima machine can have a set of mathematical symbols for there and then, but not with any sort of claim to univesality.
asciilifeform: phf: iirc originally standard was to understand what glyphs are
asciilifeform: it is how character became a distinct type
asciilifeform: non-interchangeable with numerics
asciilifeform: but it was nixed, because folks other than symbolics were allowed to have their tard-say
asciilifeform: and so the result was, as always is from committee, a chimera.
mircea_popescu: wait, wut ?
assbot: 13. Characters ... ( )
mircea_popescu: "In general, characters in Common Lisp are not true objects; eq cannot be counted upon to operate on them reliably. In particular, it is possible that the expression
mircea_popescu: (let ((x z) (y z)) (eq x y))
mircea_popescu: may be false rather than true, if the value of z is a character."
mircea_popescu: oh get the fuck out.
asciilifeform: 'Each character code is composed from a character script and a character label. The convention by which a character script and character label compose a character code is implementation dependent. [X3J13 did not approve all parts of the proposal from its Subcommittee on Characters. As a result, some features that were approved appear to have no purpose.'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is CORRECT
mircea_popescu: correct to what.
asciilifeform: and it is a preemptive and permanent cure for the unicode retardation.
asciilifeform: characters as a distinct animal from numerics.
mircea_popescu: and how do i search ?
assbot: CLHS: Function SEARCH ... ( )
mircea_popescu: "The implementation may choose to search sequence-2 in any order; there is no guarantee on the number of times the test is made."
asciilifeform: you can search any set of anything for which equality is defined!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that was a warning not to attach side effects to the act of comparison
mircea_popescu: who the fuck writes code like this.
asciilifeform: (who would? i've nfi)
asciilifeform: but, as when reading a municipal fire code,
asciilifeform: know that ~somebody~ must have.
mircea_popescu: dude if you imagine it is acceptable for me to sit here looking at two strings AND NOT KNOW exactly what the machine will do if i tell it to search
mircea_popescu: you're from another universe.
asciilifeform: the machine will compare every element to your search item.
asciilifeform: what part of this is a mega-mystery.
mircea_popescu: does it bubblesort ?
asciilifeform: this is not implicit in the act of searching
asciilifeform: on any system
mircea_popescu: i wish to know wtf it does omg.
asciilifeform: by default, it starts from beginning and iterates, comparing each thing, until finds or until runs out of thing.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10831 @ 0.00050125 = 5.429 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: this is how search on an unsorted list works anywhere in the universe
mircea_popescu: iterates ? what, by one item ?
asciilifeform: how else
mircea_popescu: no, this is not how search works "anywhere" in the universe.
asciilifeform: i get it, mircea_popescu wants boyer-moore
mircea_popescu: the bit discussing the cheating involved in the asm translation of search in c was added to the log about a year ago
mircea_popescu: recall it ?
asciilifeform: was this the old-unixen thread ?
mircea_popescu: well now ima gonna have to search won't i ;/
mircea_popescu: the idea was that it sacrificed outlier cases to get a better performance curve geared towards more common cases
mircea_popescu: by jumping the index, smashing stacks and doing all sorts of shenanigans.
phf: asciilifeform: i think numerics is a truly dodgy tradeoff. it took me until quite recently to grok that "character code == ascii" or "character code == unicode codepoint" are not the only two possible interpretations.
asciilifeform: phf: and yet one still finds people arithmetizing on characters, thinking that they are doing nothing wrong, then wondering why unicode is retarded and anything involving it is a crock of shit where so much as a fart runs in O(N) at best
mircea_popescu gives up in frustration. if anyone recalls the damned thing say.
mircea_popescu: "As an example, table 13-1 shows the character labels, graphic symbols, and character descriptions for all of the characters in the repertoire standard-char except for #\Space and #\Newline."
mircea_popescu: what is # ?
phf: a reader dispatch character
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: pound-quote
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10100 @ 0.00050125 = 5.0626 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: mno. if we read the very table referenced, we find
mircea_popescu: SM01 # number sign
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is an in-band magic sequence denoting a named character
mircea_popescu: so apparently characters are introduced by ... an escape sequence (lol)... which happens to be... NUMBER SIGN ?
mircea_popescu: is this deliberately self-mocking humour ?
asciilifeform: it's what grew on the keyboard.
mircea_popescu: this doesn't make you lol ?
asciilifeform: could've just as easily been a ^
mircea_popescu: but it isn't.
mircea_popescu: so characters ARE numbers, aite ?
asciilifeform: only in the sense everything else on the machine is.
asciilifeform: BUT they are not a ring.
mircea_popescu: no, in the sense that they are specifically labelled thus with a label specifically made to label numbers.
asciilifeform: they are not a ring.
asciilifeform: and they are not ordered.
mircea_popescu: right, "|they could have also called it penis sign"
mircea_popescu: they aren't ordered ? so "a" > "b" returns undefined ?
asciilifeform: returns whatever satan prepared for this sinful occasion, yes.
mircea_popescu: but this is blatantly not how the alphabet goes.
mircea_popescu: a comes before b.
phf: mircea_popescu: file:///Users/pf/Desktop/documentation/HyperSpec-7-0/HyperSpec/Body/13_af.htm
phf: err
mircea_popescu: lol ty .
asciilifeform: * (> #\b #\a)
asciilifeform: debugger invoked on a TYPE-ERROR in thread
asciilifeform: #<THREAD "main thread" RUNNING {1002A18C03}>:
asciilifeform: The value #\b is not of type NUMBER.
phf: hehe, where do people normally get this shit from???
asciilifeform: ^ sbcl 1.1.6
asciilifeform: phf: l0l!! everybody has this problem, aha
assbot: CLHS: Section 13.1.6 ... ( )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so is there a special function to inquire which of two comes before in the alphabet ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there is NOT a 'the alphabet' in the cl standard !
mircea_popescu: "Of the standard characters, those which are alphanumeric obey the following partial ordering:"
mircea_popescu: this shit's so retarded...
mircea_popescu: partial ordering ? rly ?
asciilifeform: the committee could not and did not, afaik, remotely contemplate attempting to invent unicode or similar.
mircea_popescu: so if i sort a file containing a bunch of words, i do not know if i should look for ___stuff at the end or beginning or scattered anywhere.
mircea_popescu: who comes up with this shit ?
asciilifeform: and it is ~wrong~ to IMPLICITLY arithmetize on non-arithmetic objects.
asciilifeform: asking what 'A' + 'B' is equal to,
asciilifeform: is talking-to-the-stove.
asciilifeform: while drinking benzene by the litre.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, sorting lists of words is the most basic, primary, entrly level task for any scribe.
mircea_popescu: and i should not be surprised, lest the scribe gets her ass colored.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you can trivially define a partial ordering when sorting
mircea_popescu: i can also trivially define the new location of washington dc.
asciilifeform: but have to ~explicitly~ do it
asciilifeform: hey it could mov
asciilifeform: like ulab batur !!11
mircea_popescu: the fucking point of having an alphabet is that no, it couldn't move.
asciilifeform: kept movin' till, when, 20th c?
asciilifeform: ru alphabet moved plenty
mircea_popescu: and no, i won't be looking for the beatles records past the why records.
mircea_popescu: yes but ru are idiots.
phf: mircea_popescu: wait, partial ordering in this case means that alphabet is ordered. it's meaningless things like "is _ greater then a" that are not defined
asciilifeform: and the latin christendom, clever ?
mircea_popescu: phf and if idiots make functions going ___function where in the ordered list do i look for them ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's besides the point :D
asciilifeform: incidentally, was anybody else cruelly shocked as a kid when discovering that the 8th-bit upper 'ansi' character of msdos is NOT standardized ?
asciilifeform: and failing to find it on one's first unix box.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> and it is ~wrong~ to IMPLICITLY arithmetize on non-arithmetic objects. << What would Terry Davis say about this?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: why not ask him ?
asciilifeform: iirc he's findable
BingoBoingo: Not full of benzene
BingoBoingo: findable yes, predictable output???
phf: mircea_popescu: there are parts of standard that are underspecified :)
mircea_popescu: im unimpressed.
asciilifeform: picture if satan lifted his magic wand, and, somehow, mpex and glbse (!) and havel0l, et al, had to ALL sit down and STANDARDIZE the stock exchange ...
phf: the only redeeming quality in this case, that there aren't better standards available, except for maybe Ada (i've not looked). you end up with trade offs, or hard constraints that make the result non-portable. a positive aspect of cl standard is that you get reasonably similar behavior on very wide range of hardware, but i agree that things could always be better
asciilifeform: in a way that doesn't leave the crud exchanges simply going to a pit to die
asciilifeform: because oh noez, they get voicez!11111
asciilifeform: representation!
asciilifeform: this is sorta what happened. symbolics co. had to 'compromise' with the turd vendors
asciilifeform: whose lisps didn't even run on a real graphical console
asciilifeform: (the entire process took place at all, as i gather, because foolishly smbx thought it could finesse the process)
mircea_popescu: and why did they ?\
mircea_popescu: nothing wrong with "fuck you, you're childrten, go away. this is the spec."
mircea_popescu: it's after all what mpex did. the children did go away.
mircea_popescu: the "concerned parents" wanna-bes with them.
asciilifeform: because this was not quite it.
asciilifeform: there were multiple licensees of the original mit machine
mircea_popescu: anyway. i have no intention to bake in historical idiocy, and especially not of this ilk.
mircea_popescu: i have had enough seawater in the shape of bitcoin genesis
asciilifeform: (early on, it was not clear that smbx would annihilate the rest)
asciilifeform: much less that it would shortly after, die.
mircea_popescu: depending on who you asked, it was "not clear" that mpex will bury mtgox, let alone bitcoinica.
asciilifeform: was it mircea_popescu who had the article with the giant and his chair ?
mircea_popescu: now that...
mircea_popescu: among many others, im sure.
mircea_popescu: anyway. i have nothing against lisp, neither historically nor intellectually. but this is an unsatisfactory notion of an alphabet.
mircea_popescu: while the idea that "letters aren't numbers, sit down" is sound,
mircea_popescu: there's as the romanians say, "mai e mult pina departe". there's a lot to go to far away.
asciilifeform: so is A > α ?
asciilifeform: or not ?
asciilifeform: or do i not get an α ?
mircea_popescu: pick one.
mircea_popescu: also, do you get two A's ?
mircea_popescu: because capital alpha is A.
asciilifeform: and how about ∀ ?
mircea_popescu: you actually aim to use a dword for the alphabet encoding ?
mircea_popescu: how's it gonna fit in your head ?
asciilifeform: this is not implicit in the question, is it
mircea_popescu: suppose you limit yourself to a hundred or so of these.
mircea_popescu: that way i can look at a piece of paper with them
asciilifeform: see mircea_popescu you are arithmetizing in your head
asciilifeform: from decades of habit
mircea_popescu: mno, i am merely in the habit of having a mendelev table on my fucking wall.
mircea_popescu: nature makes do with a hundred or so. you're better ?
asciilifeform: what if i said that α ought to live as an s-expr equalling (low (greek 0)) ?
mircea_popescu: is that tetha ?
asciilifeform: (this is not a notation on any existing system, i invented it)
mircea_popescu: so you're going to just have indexes ?
asciilifeform: it has useful semantic structure
mircea_popescu: isn't this contrary to everything you been saying to date ?
asciilifeform: and is operable
asciilifeform: e.g., i can turn it into an aleph
asciilifeform: or an upper-case
mircea_popescu: why specifically "low".
asciilifeform: indices make sense ~where defined~
mircea_popescu: why not (cool(aromatic(1))
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: because buncha medieval bozos decided they like small/big letter
asciilifeform: because these are not meaningfully-toggleable properties of a character ?
asciilifeform: break the thing into its proper subatomics.
mircea_popescu: so do we have the complete set of "meaningfully-toggleable properties" of characters set in stone ?
asciilifeform: at least for the chars a cultured man might use
mircea_popescu: is greek low 0 equal to low greek 0 ?
phf: welcome to unicode land
asciilifeform: either true or an error and the machine kicks you for asking
mircea_popescu: phf which is why i said, it's contrary to everything he was saying.
asciilifeform: i don't see how.
asciilifeform: unicode is an idiot ordering of EVERYTHING
mircea_popescu: what's the uppercase of integral sign ?
asciilifeform: itself.
asciilifeform: thing about it
mircea_popescu: what's the lowercase of the sum sign ?
asciilifeform: (if you ask for uppercase(.......) for any .... that includes such a sign, what do you expect to see ?
asciilifeform: this is, again, consistent with sanity
mircea_popescu: what happened to σ ?
mircea_popescu: and for that matter ς ?
asciilifeform: and you would set fire to a machine that behaved otherwise!
mircea_popescu: (yes, greek sigma has two lowercases!)
asciilifeform: they oughta be separate chars in alphabet then
asciilifeform: if one must have'em both.
mircea_popescu: but what of low ?
mircea_popescu: low 1 0 ?
mircea_popescu: well... tenser, said the tensor σ!
mod6: hah
mircea_popescu: also, iirc ς is worth 200 in greek
asciilifeform wonders if there are folks reading this on ascii terminals going 'wut'
mircea_popescu: so logically, the tensor is the lowercase of the sum, and it's equal to two Cs
mircea_popescu: i think we're close to a math breakthrough here.
asciilifeform: now all we need is some meta-lsd to inject straight into my eyeball
asciilifeform: so i can grasp.
mircea_popescu: do you get a Σ to be the sum and a self-same Σ to be the uppercase sigma ?
asciilifeform: connection from dropped (banned) << that banlist thing needs massage: why can same bugger come back 4x within the hour??!!
asciilifeform: on both boxes, no less
mircea_popescu: well do you actuallty ban or just bitcoind
asciilifeform: the latter
mircea_popescu: oh, how endearing.
asciilifeform: ah iirc this is 'attempted connect'
mircea_popescu: you think this shit works ? what are you, new ?!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what do you have in yours, a shell callout to iptables ?!1
mircea_popescu: pretty much.
asciilifeform: and we barfed over nss!11
mircea_popescu: what can i tell you.
trinque: gun to fire today, gun to fire tomorrow.
asciilifeform: i've always wanted a '/dev/banhammer'
asciilifeform: echo p.q.r.s > /dev/fuckyou
asciilifeform: what happened to yoooooooneeex filoooosophy!111
asciilifeform: simplicity.
mircea_popescu: this is not a bad idea
mircea_popescu: /dev/ded
asciilifeform: /dev/sad.
phf: there's probably /dev/ban on plan9
trinque: socat is capable of such an abomination pretty easily
asciilifeform: phf: quite likely!
asciilifeform: << btw lisp world actually is equipped to answer this in a non-retarded way:
assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 04:30:11; mircea_popescu: do you get a Σ to be the sum and a self-same Σ to be the uppercase sigma ?
asciilifeform: they are 'eq' but not 'equal'.
mircea_popescu: i don't see why you think this answer is not retarded.
asciilifeform: because these are useful notions?
asciilifeform: that i use every motherfuckin day?
mircea_popescu: Tubro, the fat Panamanian God of Money is a useful notion
asciilifeform: on my desk, two sheets of paper inscribed with the word 'alas' -
asciilifeform: but not equal
mircea_popescu: should it be in the lisp "repertoire" too ?
asciilifeform: because they are not the SAME sheet
asciilifeform: you see no difference between this and a random piece of excreta ?
mircea_popescu: there is no actual meaning to proposing Σ-which-i-interpreted-as-sum and Σ-which-i-interpreted-as-plotin are somehow different in the "eq" manner but similar in the "equal" manner.
mircea_popescu: because the computer is not in your fucking head.
asciilifeform: if all you get is a Σ on paper - then, no
mircea_popescu: a sign is a sign.
asciilifeform: but mapping is not 1 to 1.
mircea_popescu: it carries no meaning.
mircea_popescu: attempting to make the sign carry your guts is not going to result in a functioning computer.
asciilifeform: which is why we don't
mircea_popescu: apparently we just think we don't.
asciilifeform: as in the mircea_popescu> because capital alpha is A. example,
asciilifeform: two different objects can render to same glyph
phf: mircea_popescu: this a hypothetical mechanism you guys are discussing. this is not actually in lisp
asciilifeform: because life suxx etc
mircea_popescu: phf i know.
mircea_popescu: but i think it's very instructive because i suspect we're uncovering a psychotron here.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not a matter of "glyph". A actually is both.
mircea_popescu: it'[s not that "my girlfriendf" and "his wife" all "look like the same woman"
mircea_popescu: you're fucking the same woman.
assbot: CLHS: Function EQ ... ( )
assbot: CLHS: Function EQUAL ... ( )
assbot: CLHS: Function EQL ... ( )
assbot: CLHS: Function BIT-AND, BIT-ANDC1, BIT-ANDC2... ... ( )
assbot: CLHS: Function =, /=, <, >, <=, >= ... ( )
phf: i think if my lisp rendered same character but claimed that they are not char=, i would be very unhappy
asciilifeform: is quite certainly in lisp.
asciilifeform: phf: apparently you don't greek enough...
mircea_popescu: phf well if you have this tag-and-glyph duality you're wide fucking open to the issue.
phf: you can't make any statements about chars using eq. eq is a special beast used to test ~von neumann~ identity. and all the comments in the spec are related to that. sometimes (eq 1 1) but (eq 123123 123123) is not
phf: it's a totally technical low level detail for explicitly managing your memory, and speeding up operations
phf: you can expect eq to compile to some asm level equality procedure
mircea_popescu: or in a less charitable view, it's a half assed attempt to hand-gcc.
phf: bringing this into char discussion makes no sense whatsoever because spec explicitly says you can't
phf: mircea_popescu: correct
asciilifeform: phf: my point was to illustrate the notion of meaningfully different concepts of equality-predicate
mircea_popescu: it didn't work.
asciilifeform: only a subset of which sanely applicable to characters
asciilifeform: fact is, a system which tries to pretend that it makes sense to ask what A + ∀ is equal to, or even whether A > ∀, makes no more sense than one which tries to define the mass of the colour purple.
asciilifeform: one which lets you programmatically specify an operation which yields A when given an ∀, is marginally saner
asciilifeform: but in point of fact this actually reduces to the naming problem !
asciilifeform: from this morning !
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2016 13:49:26; mircea_popescu: naming is by its nature this : that there will be a group in power, allocating the names, and everyone else can go suck it.
asciilifeform: arguably 'how to draw an alpha' is a a name-problem question
asciilifeform: as is the answer to arbitrary crapolade, e.g., whether A > ∀.
asciilifeform: what would make sense is for folks plugged into a mircea_popescutron to get the requisite answer when they ask it
asciilifeform: see my ancient idiocy,
assbot: kyristor ... ( )
mircea_popescu: at the rate this discussion is going, the alt-"lisp" will need a pun function which tells you if the string was used in pun.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6950 @ 0.00050643 = 3.5197 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: but as far the machine is concerned, there is no difference between sum-sigma and letter-sigma. nor any meaning to any symbol. and so the whole "oh we gotta have universal quantifier as a symbol" is to my eyes an exercise of naming the function "understanding" so as to get ai.
mircea_popescu: the computer ain't working any better because it "knows" supposedly that ∀. and neither is anything else.
mircea_popescu: you can say "for any x" just as well as you can say " ∀ x".
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