#trilema | 2015-10-08

assbot: Logged on 08-10-2015 01:56:30; asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'incienso, ...., sandalo hierbas especificas que dejaran tu hogar libre de malas ondas!!' << mega-win!

mircea_popescu: but in their defense, while "onda" does strictly mean "wave", it is very amply used figuratively to denote bad fit, bad feeling, dubiousness of all kinds.

mircea_popescu: the way you say "i have a bad feeling about X" is mala onda.

mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-10-2015#1294742 << i'm with him, make her run track until exhaustion collapse three times each day for a few months, make some boots out of the spare skin, she'd be passible.

assbot: Logged on 08-10-2015 04:38:36; BingoBoingo: cazalla: That sounds dangerously close to sympathy with the MayoGendered

mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-10-2015#1294756 <<< opportunity kindly provided by inept nigger on chinese funds borrowed on guarantee of john q random citizen-derp's ass.

assbot: Logged on 08-10-2015 04:53:32; trinque: it occurs to me that the Syrian war is a decent opportunity for Russian demonstration of force to the world at large

mircea_popescu: omfg with the fat links already.

mircea_popescu: obese people are more revolting than rape and genocide.

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42556 @ 0.00049931 = 21.2486 BTC [+] {2}

mircea_popescu: those foam pics are someyhing else.

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13968 @ 0.0004997 = 6.9798 BTC [+] {2}

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15682 @ 0.00049976 = 7.8372 BTC [+]

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58100 @ 0.00049511 = 28.7659 BTC [-] {2}

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40050 @ 0.00050016 = 20.0314 BTC [+] {2}

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34087 @ 0.00049457 = 16.8584 BTC [-] {3}

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67500 @ 0.00050167 = 33.8627 BTC [+] {4}

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49600 @ 0.00050334 = 24.9657 BTC [+] {3}

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12175 @ 0.00050006 = 6.0882 BTC [-]

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23591 @ 0.00050507 = 11.9151 BTC [+] {3}

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13609 @ 0.0005055 = 6.8793 BTC [+]

asciilifeform: !up ascii_field

ascii_field: https://cryptome.org/2015/10/usa-shop-prostitutes.htm << weev lulz

assbot: US Attorneys shopping for prostitutes on taxpayer dime. -- Leaks incoming ... ( http://bit.ly/1Pk0onn )

ascii_field: and in other nyooz, https://sites.google.com/site/itstheshappening

assbot: The Shappening ... ( http://bit.ly/1Pk0paJ )

ascii_field: 'Concretely, we estimate the SHA-1 collision cost today (i.e., Fall 2015) between 75K$ and 120K$ renting Amazon EC2 cloud computing over a few months.'

ascii_field: see also http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=24-09-2015#1284794

assbot: Logged on 24-09-2015 14:12:48; asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=24-09-2015#1284625 << aha. but ever notice that it's sha1, and can't be changed to anything else? and, likewise, self-sigs are hardcoded to use sha1? it is pestilentially pervasive in the rfc, and Must Die

punkman: oh nice

punkman: what's a freestart collision?

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41050 @ 0.00050101 = 20.5665 BTC [-]

BingoBoingo: <fluffypony> I mean, they'll bloom forever-ish, but only in summer/spring << Been going more summer to october here...

punkman: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=293382.0

assbot: REWARD offered for hash collisions for SHA1, SHA256, RIPEMD160 and other ... ( http://bit.ly/1Pk0VFC )

punkman: "Note that the value of your SHA256, RIPEMD160, RIPEMD160(SHA256()) or SHA256^2 bounty may be diminished by the act of collecting it." heh

BingoBoingo: lols https://archive.is/LI8b2

assbot: rsynnott2 comments on BitVPS customers find out they aren't able to access services and no backups exist. Sorry for your loss. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Pk1L5u )

BingoBoingo: "Rabbits have very strong feelings about the ACW. It's one of the reasons you never see black people with rabbits, as rabbits remain dogmatic supporters of the CSA and slavery to this very day. Your average rabbit is basically a furry Nathan Bedford Forrest."

jurov: bitvps' colorful history prolly deserves longer writeup

jurov: just from my bad memory - it started as joint venture of an underage admin and other person who was supposed to actually pay bills

trinque: no backups is mindbogglingly bad

jurov: then it got listed (supposedly without consent of the latter) and later delisted from mpex

jurov: then it got sold to new owners

jurov: around that time coinbr was a customer and after a ddos got unceremoniously kicked out

jurov: then it got listed on buttfunder and btctct

jurov: then that went sour, too (i stopped following long before that)

punkman: well obviously they suck, but isn't backup usually the customer's responsibility?

jurov: re: to that - insert as second row that the bills really got unpaid, twice during the half year while coinbr was there

jurov: dunno why i did not move earlier

trinque: punkman: sure but what's your reputation worth

trinque: a host should always back-up

trinque: lest they be tarnished with the mark of "lost everything that one time"

punkman: trinque: well sometimes the host offers a backup service for a fee, at least as far as cheap vps boxes go

trinque: I'd say "lost one box due to hardware failure" is on the customer, "lost the whole damn service" is definitely on the provider

jcpham: ^ this is such a pain in the ass

trinque: what is

jcpham: anyways I'm glad i had bitvps qm destroy my vm months ago

fluffypony: trinque: no backups is the norm, just ask usagi

trinque: !s backups

assbot: 166 results for 'backups' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=backups

fluffypony: jcpham: are you in serious mode or back to your old nick for shits and giggles?

jcpham: i find it seriously a pita to get voiced

trinque: :''(

jcpham: i'm awol until i setup another bnc which is never

trinque: curl ... | gpg --decrypt is so hard

jcpham: super

trinque: I am being entirely sarcastic

trinque: it takes me all of 10sec

jcpham: i'm counting down the moments before i /part because freenode might split

jcpham already gets enough weird emails without the threat of an ip disclosure by accident

trinque: so sasl

trinque: these are all trivial problems

fluffypony: jcpham: just use IRC cloud, I mean I trust you aren't saying anything super sensitive on Freenode anyway

jcpham: funny story about bitvps, the first day i joined irc rg ipwhois'd my netblock and starting looking up my ASN and doing research on me

jcpham: and that was my intro to bitcoin

fluffypony: classic rapeghost

jcpham: oh neat xchat has an sasl thingy

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7125 @ 0.00050101 = 3.5697 BTC [-]

jurov: http://dandygoat.com/hillary-adopts-new-goth-look-to-appeal-to-youth kek

assbot: Hillary adopts new ‘goth’ look to appeal to youth — The Dandy Goat ... ( http://bit.ly/1LCpcY4 )

trinque: We were hemorrhaging support to that [expletive] hippie Bernie Sanders << top kek

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36400 @ 0.00050041 = 18.2149 BTC [-] {3}

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17557 @ 0.00050101 = 8.7962 BTC [+] {3}

ben_vulpes: > airgapped@ip

BingoBoingo: http://www.themaneater.com/stories/2015/10/7/mu-jolted-lbc-discrimination/

assbot: MU jolted by LBC discrimination – The Maneater ... ( http://bit.ly/1WQ5gTj )

BingoBoingo: http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/education/mu-to-require-incoming-students-to-take-diversity-training/article_f27818ca-fd99-5ffc-9e19-98309c8b1ae9.html << Fucking Hamiltonians

assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1NqHU57 )

BingoBoingo: https://archive.is/Afvwy

assbot: Students protest Thomas Jefferson statue, call for its removal | Local | columbiamissourian.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1NqIbF4 )

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21100 @ 0.00049975 = 10.5447 BTC [-] {3}

BingoBoingo: "We are told to believe that transsexuals were born that way, intermediate in gender. Yet a striking fraction of the most publicized cases in recent years have been men who were quite masculine in their 20s. (Its been noted that Jenner and several other famous transsexuals are Republicans or Libertarians.)" << http://takimag.com/article/the_republican_drug_steve_sailer

assbot: The Republican Drug - Taki's Magazine ... ( http://bit.ly/1NqMdNT )

jurov: er.. and cissexuals aren't masculine?

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5700 @ 0.00049967 = 2.8481 BTC [-]

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69917 @ 0.00049823 = 34.8347 BTC [-] {4}

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21236 @ 0.00049622 = 10.5377 BTC [-]

BingoBoingo: <jurov> er.. and cissexuals aren't masculine? << Who knows anymore.

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57850 @ 0.00050106 = 28.9863 BTC [+] {3}

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 79400 @ 0.00049236 = 39.0934 BTC [-] {3}

ben_vulpes: http://motherboard.vice.com/read/i-broke-bitcoin << ahehuehahahaehuaheha

assbot: I Broke Bitcoin | Motherboard ... ( http://bit.ly/1R1L0dr )

mod6: So not sure what happened yesterday, but my bitcoin v0.5.4-TEST2 died yesterday while I wasn't looking.

mod6: It /had/ been keeping sync for over 2 months.

ben_vulpes: jordan pearson: you have no business writing about bitcoin

mod6: Def didn't run out of disk space or anything. And I don't see anything insane in the logs.

ben_vulpes: ohai deedbot-

mod6: I'm gonna fire it back up and see how far it is behind.

trinque: ben_vulpes: tenyks doesn't know how to re-snag a nick :(

ben_vulpes: mod6: interdasting, mine crapped out last night too

mod6: hmm.

BingoBoingo: OOM crash?

mod6: height=377906

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 73953 @ 0.00050197 = 37.1222 BTC [+] {6}

mod6: i didn't see any messages like that. nothing weird in the logs. just stopped at one point.

mod6: After I restarted it did an immediate REORGANIZE

mod6: its catching up now...

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4590 @ 0.00050443 = 2.3153 BTC [+]

mircea_popescu: <jurov> just from my bad memory - it started as joint venture of an underage admin and other person who was supposed to actually pay bills <<< we don't even know wtf it all was, but hard drugs appear retrosepctively to have been involved.

mircea_popescu: <BingoBoingo> http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/education/mu-to-require-incoming-students-to-take-diversity-training/ << better than requiring them to take basic fucking math.

assbot: Columbia Daily Tribune | Columbia Missouri: Education ... ( http://bit.ly/1R1LRek )

BingoBoingo: I jsut can't believe they are vandalizing the Thomas Jefferson statue and the original Jefferson Grave marker

mircea_popescu: who needs math just as long as they know the obese aren't people, transgender is just the sign of an overactive imagination, all women are lezzies and so forth.

mircea_popescu: <ben_vulpes> jordan pearson: you have no business writing about bitcoin <<< or reading vice.

mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo hm ?\

BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: There's a Thomas Jefferson statue on campus along with his original grave marker. As part of outrage over a group of people overhear someone say nigger in a phone conversation, Social Justice Whale Hamiltonians want the statue and the grave marker removed.

mircea_popescu: ...

mircea_popescu: and this matters because ?

mircea_popescu: o wait, the hamplanet mobility solution providers are actually gonna do it ?

BingoBoingo: Because SJWhales aren't supposed to have this kind of power in Missouri. I thought being in Missouri gave them other things to be outraged about.

BingoBoingo: They might.

BingoBoingo: The might remove it because a group overheard some drunk's phone conversation.

mircea_popescu: where's the "Thomas Jeffersson thinks niggers suck" campaign.

mircea_popescu: srsly, what the fuck are young adults doing over there.

mircea_popescu: every teen everywhere knows the right response to outrage is escalation.

mircea_popescu: except these droolbodies.

BingoBoingo: Seriously. Or the "this sidewalk is too high traffic for yall to park your scooty puffs"

BingoBoingo: Apparently since I left there's a Libtard "Let's get rid of all the nice things" movement that sprung up

mircea_popescu: this blatter saga is something else.

BingoBoingo: The don't like the Jefferson monuments, they don't like the Research Reactor

BingoBoingo: Blatter is something else.

mircea_popescu: i mean i get it, usg interest can't push asad out, etc.

mircea_popescu: but they can't even push the fifa guy out ?

mircea_popescu: da fuck is next.

BingoBoingo: Next is prolly can't push the IOC out

mircea_popescu: "usg fails to push its out shit out of its own rectum, send halp!"

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 61450 @ 0.00048894 = 30.0454 BTC [-]

BingoBoingo: http://gotnews.com/breaking-gotnews-com-ellmers-affair-reporting-leads-to-kevinmccarthy-departure/

assbot: BREAKING: GotNews.com Ellmers Affair Reporting Leads to #KevinMcCarthy Departure - GotNews ... ( http://bit.ly/1R1Ndpl )

mircea_popescu: yaimsure.

mircea_popescu: obscure.derp reporting leads to things!

BingoBoingo: Fuck only knows anymore

BingoBoingo: They also got this though http://gotnews.com/breaking-gotnews-com-ids-first-department-of-justice-employee-on-ashleymadison/

assbot: BREAKING: GotNews.com IDs First Department of Justice Employee on #AshleyMadison - GotNews ... ( http://bit.ly/1R1NybE )

BingoBoingo: "Heres the first: Assistant U.S. Attorney Martin S. Bell. Hes based in New York and used Ashley Madison at work. He works for the controversial U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara."

mircea_popescu: pretty cool, but... how exactly did they "get" it. public is public.

BingoBoingo: Yeah, like all the other Ashley Madison stuff.

BingoBoingo: Starting with Bharara's office was a nice touch, but a lot of trying hard

mod6: ok node is all caught up

BingoBoingo: I'm jsut wondering though why they have javascript from fucking coinbase on their page

mircea_popescu: srsly.

mircea_popescu: anyway, can't hurt to make contact. who knows, maybe only superficially stupid.

BingoBoingo: Eh, I'll keep digging in the news mines and look for stuff while I think about it.

asciilifeform: ;;later tell mod6 i saw nothing anomalous on my remaining node... plz post your log at time of crash ?

gribble: The operation succeeded.

asciilifeform: ;;later tell mod6 also check system log for segfault, and post that, if found.

gribble: The operation succeeded.

mircea_popescu: ;;google مارتیا خوار

gribble: Manticore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manticore>; Manticore - Mythology Wiki: <http://mythology.wikia.com/wiki/Manticore>; Manticore - The Castlevania Wiki - Wikia: <http://castlevania.wikia.com/wiki/Manticore>

mircea_popescu: ha!

mod6: ok asciilifeform will look

mod6: 221M messages

mod6: looks like i sustained a port 22 attack over the last 3 days.

mod6: that might have had an impact.

mircea_popescu: lol!

mircea_popescu: now i gotta look.

mircea_popescu: ;;bc,stats

mircea_popescu: nothing here. up to date, 100 conns.

mod6: nice. ok, might have just been me.

mod6: 87825 attempts on ssh since Oct 1st.

mod6: that actually doesn't seem like that many.

mircea_popescu: always an idea to move ssh and lock that port.

mod6: ^

mod6: beware: this is ~10Mb

mod6: asciilifeform: http://thebitcoin.foundation/misc/20151007_v054-TEST2_last200k.debug.log.txt

assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1L2IK4p )

mod6: oh guess i was wrong, wasn't 377906, was: height=377901

mod6: my bad.

asciilifeform: mod6: nothing interesting here

asciilifeform: mod6: any segfault ?

mod6: not that I saw, no.

mod6: nothing in logs, or in terminal stderr or whatnot.

asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-10-2015#1294954 << and since no one seems to have picked up on what this means, i suppose i must now draw a picture.

assbot: Logged on 08-10-2015 18:22:39; ascii_field: and in other nyooz, https://sites.google.com/site/itstheshappening

asciilifeform: section 12.2 of rfc4880 sayeth,

asciilifeform: 'A V4 fingerprint is the 160-bit SHA-1 hash of the octet 0x99, followed by the two-octet packet length, followed by the entire Public-Key packet starting with the version field. The Key ID is the low-order 64 bits of the fingerprint.'

asciilifeform: do i need to carry on, or is it clear ?

mircea_popescu: if you're intimating someone's going to create a sha-1 collision and thereby obtain a key that hashes to the collision, you're exaggerating justalittle.

mircea_popescu: otherwise yes, gpg is, and remains, slated for replacement.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: cost of a sha1 collision is less than a year of schmuck pay at this point.

mircea_popescu: yes, but that's still not a key.

asciilifeform: it'll be a 'key'

mircea_popescu: not any string of bits is a key tho

asciilifeform: notice that 'the entire Public-Key packet' leaves plenty of tweakable bits on top of the modulus

mircea_popescu: true.

asciilifeform: so, generate something like a reasonable modulus, and then proceed.

mircea_popescu: you can calculate your chances of succeeding right now.

asciilifeform: notice that the length of the packet is not even bounded

mircea_popescu: they're unsplendid.

mircea_popescu: (but we did do a campaighn of updating from sha-1 about last year, for digests etc)

asciilifeform: sure. but this does nothing for key fp.

asciilifeform: which is hardcoded to sha1..

mircea_popescu: the only scenario that does anything in, is when one acquires a key from dubious source.

asciilifeform: thing is, let's recall how key familiarity works right now. e.g., mircea_popescu's business card.

asciilifeform: it does not contain the modulus he signs with. only bottom 64b of the sha1 of....

mircea_popescu: aha.

mircea_popescu: the pupose of the business card is to filter contacts tho.

asciilifeform: point being, gpg --keyserver wherever.the.fuck --recv-key 0xfingerprint can now return magical key.

asciilifeform: the chore that everybody here has been putting off into indefinite future - that of ~actually distributing one's entire modulus~ - is a necessary thing.

mircea_popescu distributes his pubkey off his blog.

mircea_popescu: the "chore" of having and maintaining blogs is NOT negotiable. you must, you MUST be your own facebook washington post vice gawker etc.

asciilifeform also

mircea_popescu: this was never negotiable.

asciilifeform: there are folks in wot who have neglected this.

mircea_popescu: these also tend to be folks for whom this bullet won't likely be fired.\

mircea_popescu: it's expensive, and foer that matter - we've yet to see this wonder in the wild.

mircea_popescu: so far we're at the "one mirrored moduls"

mircea_popescu: oh, speaking of which...

mircea_popescu: Naphex you ever got that quote ?

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: https://github.com/coruus/cooperpair/tree/master/pgpv4 << contains, iirc, example of collision

assbot: cooperpair/pgpv4 at master · coruus/cooperpair · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1NAUUnm )

asciilifeform: (how found - not specified)

asciilifeform: https://web.archive.org/web/20100430025638/http://imc.org/ietf-openpgp/mail-archive/msg30980.html << mainly interesting for having been deleted from the ml

assbot: how close is OpenPGP tied to SHA1 ... ( http://bit.ly/1jeUdnW )

mod6: ok, updated mod6.net with my pubkey.

asciilifeform: where does btcalpha get its pubkeys ?

asciilifeform: how about assbot?

asciilifeform: as to where the bullet might be aimed, the phuctor dataset suggests a certain pattern

mircea_popescu: deleted ?!

asciilifeform: aha, hence 'archive.org'

mircea_popescu: assbot and btcalpha get them from servers (older implementations) ; deedbot- gets them correctly (you gotta supply the dpaste with it)

asciilifeform: pattern: folks who 1) are somehow interesting (german number theorists, etc) 2) have a very threadbare, if at all present, volume of published signed material 3) communicate their key to other people largely in the form of a fingerprint

mircea_popescu: 2 really reads like "idiots" to me.

mircea_popescu: folk who think they're too damned important to irc, blog etc.

mircea_popescu: "oh, that's hearn's job"

mircea_popescu: yes, fucktard, let it be hearn's job. next you'll be fed by cockroaches. it's their job to move food around.

asciilifeform: !b 1

assbot: Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/3TRA5RA.txt )

asciilifeform: but i disagree that folks who largely listen, and seldom talk, are necessarily 'idiot'

asciilifeform: if anything, the net needs more, rather than fewer, of them

mircea_popescu: do you know what the term meant, originally ?

asciilifeform: sure. those bedeviled with... ideas

mircea_popescu: notrly. pretty much exactly : doesn't talk much. sorta eternally amazed.

mircea_popescu: deaf&dumb being the other kind.

asciilifeform: there are also people who are not really mute by any reasonable definition but this one. e.g., knuth

asciilifeform: large volume of material, afaik none of it signed.

mircea_popescu: sadly.

asciilifeform: they then are the targets.

asciilifeform: for this bullet.

asciilifeform: and anyone else who'd make a satisfying splat.

asciilifeform: the point i wanted to make is that the original attitude of 'keys are people' was predicated on ideally 'stiff' keys

asciilifeform: really, it is 'key plus body of signed material' is a man.

mircea_popescu: yes.

asciilifeform: and this still is predicated on an assumption, to date unproven, that rsa sig operation is not malleable.

mircea_popescu: it certainlty is malleable (provably so)

asciilifeform: (it is conceivable that one might produce a key which will verify mircea_popescu's signed body of works, but which, if encrypted to, resulting ciphertext could be read both by mircea_popescu AND by hitler.)

mircea_popescu: supposedly not ~usefully~ malleable.

mircea_popescu: this is not conceivable.

asciilifeform: solely because rfc2440/4880 is retarded

asciilifeform: not on account of rsa per se.

BingoBoingo: https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml/blob/master/spec/amp-html-format.md << In other news Google struggles to get up to qntra's mobile friendly design

assbot: amphtml/amp-html-format.md at master · ampproject/amphtml · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1jeWjUL )

mircea_popescu: it IS however conceivable that a pubkey might be created which carries the fingerprint 6160E1CAC8A3C52966FD76998A736F0E2FB7B452 but if used to encrypt to mp will respond with "this doesn't decrypt wtf did you do". which event will be very interesting to see .

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: except the ideal scenario for firing this weapon is precisely a case where the resulting message never reaches mircea_popescu

asciilifeform: instead it'd be a funkspiel between hitler and mr schmuck, the latter having believed that he is speaking to mircea_popescu

mircea_popescu: right.

mircea_popescu: except, i do not normally expect to be spoken to by people i do not know.

asciilifeform: aha.

asciilifeform: but if knuth wants to write in - then tough cookies.

asciilifeform: or al schwartz

asciilifeform: et al.

mircea_popescu: they are too old to be alive anymore, is the sad truth of the matter.

mircea_popescu: they may only survive as dead people./

asciilifeform: the part that bugs me is that the fundamental premise of public key crypto is a kind of downer

mircea_popescu: how you mean ?

asciilifeform: that is, the idea was that it is not necessary to meet in the flesh to form a working relation

asciilifeform: (if you can meet in the flesh, you could exchange one time pads just as well)

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42900 @ 0.00050442 = 21.6396 BTC [+] {2}

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what happened to the third ?

mircea_popescu: the ONLY way to meet new people is via recommendation.

mircea_popescu: "talk to this guy - here's his php"

mircea_popescu: pgp*

asciilifeform: also works.

mircea_popescu: no. not also.

mircea_popescu: this is the only thing that owkrs, or ever has worked.

mircea_popescu: this is what gossipd is built upon, also.

asciilifeform: 'here is me, and this is my pgp' also works, is what i meant.

mircea_popescu: there is nothing else. in very particular, there is NOT this bullshit star pattern of "everyone reads vice".

asciilifeform: aha

mircea_popescu: the deep fundamental reason usg exists needs to go away. not merely the usg, or preet bharara's head.

mircea_popescu: the notion that people may read "newpspaers" made by people they don't know.

asciilifeform: the basic result here is that pgptronium is conserved, if you will.

mircea_popescu: this is rank nonsense, and the cornerstone of stupidworld.

mircea_popescu: trust is conserved. yes.

asciilifeform: the one thing remaining to add is that, theoretically, it is not necessary to distribute pubkeys at all!

asciilifeform: because they can be derived from signed material

asciilifeform: with a modest expenditure of cpu.

mircea_popescu: some people don't sign so much.

asciilifeform: they are candidates for the treatment described earlier.

mircea_popescu: but an extractor is a fundamental tool, yes.

asciilifeform has intended to produce one for a long while, but it is not a priority presently

asciilifeform: my original observation, though, stands - the time to stop thinking of pgp 64bit fp as 'the man' is not when arbitrarily colliding sha1 costs a penny! it is now.

asciilifeform: other thing is, the problem goes a little deeper. one might craft, for instance, a filter which eats mircea_popescu's www and substitutes hitlerine signatures for all of the signatures contained therein.

asciilifeform: and the matching hitler key, for the key normally appearing in http://trilema.com/contact-pgp

assbot: Contact : PGP on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1jRZXEJ )

mircea_popescu: there aren't any signatures contained therein.

asciilifeform: deedbot, then

mircea_popescu: but herein the problem gets fractured. how many things does it need to filter ?

asciilifeform: this of course demonstrates the point mircea_popescu made earlier, whereby no one who he was not properly introduced to, could ever hope to escape this.

mircea_popescu: (turns out mp deliberately isn't keeoping the pobkey and the signerd material in the same place. har har who knew! )

mircea_popescu: i said and i repeated there';s major value to jointing the wot early. to the point that it was throughout the greatest gift one could give his rest of his life.

mircea_popescu: yes, this was, and perhaps still is true.

mircea_popescu: \as you say, the time to join the wot isn't when sha-1 collisions cost a penny.

asciilifeform: no mega-shocking result - pgp is not a magical fountain of phree-energy-style 'trust from the aether', but rather an amplifier of trust established - to some extent - in the meat.

mircea_popescu: there is no pill for fixing late adopter lameness.

asciilifeform: the other thing is, to the extent that the integrity of the wot as we now have it is predicated on sha1 not costing a penny to break, some of the sweat that went in to forming the wot may end up having to be re-sweated

mircea_popescu: the people who went to oregon first, got homesteads. the people who go now - get to pay rent.

mircea_popescu: there still is time.

phf: oh hey i wrote a poc for pgp filter at toorcon, when that other wifi mitm came out. no need to figure out what's where, just sit on the http stream, catch text/*, grep it for gpg headers, and then rewrite on the fly

asciilifeform: phf: this only leads to laughs unless you can somehow be there for the rest of the two would-be pen pals' lives

asciilifeform: sitting between them

mircea_popescu: yes, rewerite, but with what.

phf: asciilifeform: of course

asciilifeform: 'quod licet' usg 'non licet bovi' (tm)

mircea_popescu: doing this is actually a strategic mistake i'd be more than happy to see executed.

asciilifeform: let's picture, say, an isis beheading is held on top of a banner containing an fp

mircea_popescu: exponential costs. modest benefits. very much in line with all the other bad choices that sunk the ship of state.

mircea_popescu: has this ever happened ?

asciilifeform: not afaik

asciilifeform: but i suggested it some months ago, and so it is conceivable that it will.

mircea_popescu: let's picture a unicorn raping a lolipop ?

mircea_popescu: mmm.

phf: mircea_popescu: back then it was kek, these days i could probably get a hackernews frontpage "fundamental vulnerability found in gnupg, no one is safe!" either way completely irrelevant. just reminded me, it was 2005 or so

asciilifeform: the fundamental issue that bothers me is that a broken hash is where 'protocol' begins to decay into 'promise'

asciilifeform: systems which rely on a hash, ultimately contain trace elements of 'promise'

mircea_popescu: a hash is a fundamental building block of crypto

asciilifeform: the weaker the hash, the more 'promise' and less 'protocol'.

asciilifeform: hash is the proverbial 'hole through which the night walks in'

mircea_popescu: you can't really have pneumatics without valves.

asciilifeform: tesla begs to differ

mircea_popescu: and yes, valves is what always fucking breaks.

asciilifeform: (he had a whole host of motionless pneumatic building blocks based on vortices)

mircea_popescu: no wonder dupont had him killed.

asciilifeform: and to that we have analogy: the pure-rsa variant

asciilifeform: where nothing needs to be hashed.

asciilifeform: and symmetric crypto is also not made use of.

mircea_popescu believes he proposed this originally.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu did propose putting it to battlefield use

mircea_popescu: but i am reserved as to the hashlessness

asciilifeform: normally everybody proposes it and then writes it off as 'we haven't the cpu or the entropy'

asciilifeform: 'and passing moduli around bloats messages'

asciilifeform: thing re: hashes is that every hash, being a many-to-one function, is by definition guaranteed to collide.

asciilifeform: the only question concerns the difficulty of finding said collisions

asciilifeform: and in most cases it is not in any way knowable.

asciilifeform: today - gigabux, tomorrow - penny (pointedly ~not~ because of any advance in cpu, but on account of mathematical efforts)

asciilifeform: in ~that~ sense alone, a hash is a cheque drawn on a total unknown.

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 92700 @ 0.00048955 = 45.3813 BTC [-]

mircea_popescu: myeah.

mircea_popescu: oh, btw, phf you ain't ever gonna collect your eulora prize ?

phf: mircea_popescu: will do around saturday. i'm still in transit, so no working client

mircea_popescu: ah k

mircea_popescu: whenever i hear of someone saying they're in transit i always picture a person inside an intestine.

phf: well, i'm on amtrak, so might as well be

asciilifeform thinks 'sic transit gloria mundi'

mircea_popescu: why don't you fly ?

phf: inertia, there was a point when amtrak was also inexpensive in addition to being cheap

mircea_popescu: nothing but terrorists in this chan i swear.

mircea_popescu: but i gotta say "why don't you fly" "inertia" is a damned good answer.

mircea_popescu: whenever something doesn't fly that's usually why

phf: mp gets them every time

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how is unpadded rsa supposed to work ?

asciilifeform: the 'padding' thing is an entirely separate animal

mircea_popescu: from hashing ?

asciilifeform: yes

mircea_popescu: ...

phf: i'm waiting for this channel to catch up with me, i'm going to go through some routine dc check, like a metal scanner or security clearance, and it's going to be "step this way sir." some gruff looking gentleman holding b-a printouts..

mircea_popescu: they're fucking inverse functions. one does many-to-one, the other needs an arbitrary bytecount.

asciilifeform: phf: nah it'll be quick and humane, more of a michael hastings sort of affair.

mircea_popescu: phf link them to the place where ytou said you're against sedition.

mod6: that might have been a different d00d

asciilifeform: iirc it was midnightmagic

mircea_popescu: what, different dood on the internet ?

mircea_popescu: what is this.

mod6: haha. i recall there was a guy before phf's time that was like, "i can't hang in here! too much sedition!" or something

mircea_popescu: been a bunch of those.

mod6: fair enough

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'padding' is a misnomer for a variety of possible processes, all of which have the objective of making sure that a message is never close in phase-space to another plausible message

asciilifeform: (and especially not close in the phase space of cryptographic malleability, for the kind of crypto in use)

mircea_popescu: https://www.reddit.com/r/butt/comments/2xoik6/heres_30_butts_in_case_youve_forgotten_what_they/

assbot: reddit.com: over 18? ... ( http://bit.ly/1jS26Aa )

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha.

mircea_popescu: but just as far as the general principle goes. how are you going to do "padding" w/o hashing ?

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: can do a one-to-many permutation.

asciilifeform: yes, expensive.

mircea_popescu: and moreover, just as bad as hashing.

asciilifeform: mno.

mircea_popescu: provably mno or just mno.

asciilifeform: whaddayamean, i gotta prove

asciilifeform now will have to prove, pissed

mircea_popescu: heh mkay.

asciilifeform: l0l

asciilifeform goes off to eat dinner before it dies a 2nd time

mircea_popescu: and more-moreover, your one-to-manyh permutation will be implemented as a hash fun ction.

mircea_popescu: laters.

deedbot-: [Trilema] La Chacarita - http://trilema.com/2015/la-chacarita/

mod6: ah cool, you got a chance to walk through there!

mod6: eh, maybe not the same place

mod6: lol during kindergarten years

mod6: arg! i gotta finish the documentation on this thing so i can play new eulora!

mircea_popescu: !up mitch_callahan

mircea_popescu: mod6 maybe you're thinking recoleta. i did that one a while back.

mircea_popescu: i think at least.\

mitch_callahan: sweet, voiced up. :)

asciilifeform still needs to post his recoleta pics

asciilifeform: fully 90% of what was in the camera, even.

mircea_popescu: who're you, mitch_callahan

mitch_callahan: mircea_popescu, I was using menahem, but my key expired.

mitch_callahan: n00b mistake, bitcoin-assets is my crypto 101

mircea_popescu: ah

mitch_callahan: i wanted to change my nick anyhow

mircea_popescu: !rarte

mircea_popescu: !rated menahem

assbot: You rated user menahem on 26-Apr-2015, with a rating of 1, and supplied these additional notes: New blood.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i discovered a new japanese restaurant (in china town) whereby i had an exceptional peruan soup.

mircea_popescu: i poured a little on the floor for your soul.

asciilifeform: mmm

asciilifeform honoured

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