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Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

nubbins`: so the roomie that's being kicked out: he puts on a pot of water to boil yesterday
nubbins`: heads upstairs, the water boils, boils, boils down to a quarter-cup before he wanders back down
Chillum: milled stone may be the choice for something to last for 100 years +
nubbins`: says "oh, i forgot", pours his quarter-cup of water into a mug, puts the pot (which has only contained water) into a dirty sink for someone else to wash
Chillum: worked for the Egyptians
nubbins`: and walks away without turning off the stove burner o.O
decimation: Chillum: yeah but what are you gonna write on it? Chillum wuz here?
Chillum: decimation: a bitcoin wallet with 1 bitcoin, think about how much it will be worth in 4000 years!
asciilifeform: 1 bitcoin...
asciilifeform: (worth)
decimation: Chillum: and how are you gonna keep some random chump from ambling by and liberating the contents?
Chillum: perhaps I should just write "Chillum was here"
Chillum: seriously though, create a giant pyramid over it
asciilifeform: forget the pyramid, just leave n bits off the key.
Chillum: hehe, make it so that you ahve to brute force it for 4000 years?
decimation: pass them through oral history?
asciilifeform: y years
asciilifeform: what f where f(y) = n, exercise for reader.
Chillum: it would be nice if there was a public/private key system somehow based on time
decimation: asciilifeform: but if your purpose is to send bitcoin to random person, just send it to a random address?
Chillum: like you could encrypt a message that could be decoded until a specific date
asciilifeform: decimation: what the 'purpose' is of this, i will leave to the shrinks.
asciilifeform: of the future.
Chillum: I found this: but that is trusting a 3rd party which is lame
assbot: ... ( )
asciilifeform: Chillum has rediscovered 'slavecoin'.
decimation: heh
nubbins`: where's hari seldon when you need him
Chillum: never heard of slavecoin
asciilifeform: !s slavecoin
assbot: 26 results for 'slavecoin' :
asciilifeform: Chillum: it's a #b-a exclusive, afaik.
nubbins`: whoever finds your milled stone will have to get to the end of the first book before he figures out wtf is going on
Chillum: I will have to include a stone version of the block chain
nubbins`: anyway i'm gonna have a jazz smoke and head to bed. if someone gets portatronic pogotronic static-o-matic bitcoind recipe posted to ML by month's end, i'll send you a free hand-bound book
decimation: maybe you could sculpt a facsimile of yourself and cut its fuckkin' hand off
Chillum: jazz smokes are the best smokes
nubbins`: ^
nubbins`: nite
Chillum: I am jazzing right now
asciilifeform: ;;ud jazz smoke
gribble: | jazz smoke isn't defined. Can you define it? * Meaning. Random Word. Ten Words Trending Now. trap queen · swamp donkey · on fleek · sex · dutch rudder ...
asciilifeform: hm.
nubbins`: ;;ud jazz cigarette
gribble: | A slang term used for Marijuana cigarettes during the 1920's in the United States. Cannabis cigarettes were sold in jazz clubs during this period thus the origin of ...
Chillum: weed ascii, weed
asciilifeform: aha.
nubbins`: one of the more comical euphemisms
nubbins`: on that note...
asciilifeform expected it to be something more specific - weed smoked through trombone, or the like
Chillum: that is called trombonging
asciilifeform: obligatory :
assbot: Soldiers Smoking Weed During Vietnam War - YouTube ... ( )
Chillum: shotgunning is based off of trombonging
Chillum: which itself is based on trumptoking
Chillum: which is smoking through a trumpet
Chillum: completely unrelated to harp-hooting though
asciilifeform: how the hell does one smoke a harp ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30800 @ 0.00025019 = 7.7059 BTC [-] {2}
decimation: actually if you want to have something amusing stand the test of time, why not make a '10,000 year clock' like those yahoos in texas
asciilifeform: decimation: if they were serious about the 10,000 - they would have parked it on the moon
asciilifeform: rather than down here, where it waits for the scrap dealers of aztlan circa 2080s
decimation: yeah I don't think they are serious, apparently it partially depends on visitors winding it
decimation: is aztlan the 'blade runner'-style distopia?
asciilifeform: decimation: nah
asciilifeform: decimation: more of an extrapolation of present-day mexican turf wars with a pseudohistoric flavour
asciilifeform: (think mussolini's relationship with rome)
decimation: yeah, the movie was naive to think that the chinese would take over before the central americans
asciilifeform: decimation: the traditional picture is each empire getting its 'correct' continent
asciilifeform: 'rice kingdom' is a civilization type, after all
asciilifeform: doesn't really work in climates without rice.
asciilifeform: or so went the reasoning.
decimation: certainly geography and civilization are correlated
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski:
assbot: You know what doesn’t wash? Your pathetic attempts to “teach the controversy.” That’s what. | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( )
asciilifeform: see also:
assbot: Logged on 22-03-2015 02:22:03; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the problem with jurisdictions discussed recentlier is deeper than it seems. plenty of usians do not think other places are "real places".
Chillum: harp hooting is when you play a harp while making obnoxious hooting noises at passing women
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: quite so.
pete_dushenski: the world is as we learned it in social studies
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: the interesting, and perhaps nonobvious - tidbit - is that these folks -actually- perceive 'american law' and 'god's law' (whether or not they worship any gods) to be one and the same
asciilifeform: it isn't, as far as i can tell, a pretense
pete_dushenski: i have the same sense.
Chillum: amazing what some nutbars believe
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: though that this thought and sympathy with defectors can co-exist is, to me, baffling
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: it is the 'sympathy' of torquemada for the heretic
pete_dushenski: i mean, doesn't someone have to be in the right ?
asciilifeform: ready to hug him, kiss him good-night before lighting the pyre, so long as he repents
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53200 @ 0.00025446 = 13.5373 BTC [+]
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: hm. suppose so eh.
asciilifeform: the american puritans invented a term of art for this, 'love the sinner and hate the sin'
pete_dushenski: and when snowden dies for our sins, we can be free
pete_dushenski: because we are all the sinners
pete_dushenski: we just want other people to atone for it
pete_dushenski: "you fast on yom kippur, ima fucking eat this pizza"
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: at any rate, snowden deserves his share of being pissed on for his failure to say 'yes, if you are a servant of usg i want to see your miserable existence end on'
asciilifeform: 'sooner - better'
asciilifeform: in a way he is buying into the inquisitor's proposition.
asciilifeform: by failing to immediately reply with exactly this.
pete_dushenski: of course, but he's awfully timid for that headsoff bizniz
pete_dushenski: he grew up american, never knowing war or hunger
asciilifeform: not as if he were personally asked to work the guillotine
pete_dushenski: but, must still imagine it
pete_dushenski: and its uses and purposes
asciilifeform: but could so much as admit that 'though i am a german, a good nazi is a dead one'
pete_dushenski: but a non-nazi german would've still witnessed abuses and tragedies, first hand, that would make a deskmonkey faint instantly
pete_dushenski: or at least there's a greater probability of this
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: it is difficult to imagine that cia employee would have no concept of what usg dishes out to the rest of the planet (as well as own subjects)
pete_dushenski: mebbe your friend the joo was shipped off in a cattle car
asciilifeform: just as an exterminator probably has some idea of what the ant hill experiences
pete_dushenski: pictures don't smell
pete_dushenski: pictures don't say goodbye
pete_dushenski: cia employee has seen pictures, that's it
pete_dushenski: not foot soldiers, these
asciilifeform: thing is, plenty of folks who have never killed so much as a rat, happily howl for blood of this or that enemy
asciilifeform: it is an instinct, like sex
pete_dushenski: well snowden is also "educated"
pete_dushenski: which in usian means "isolated"
asciilifeform: the desire is not really connected with whether you have the talent, or opportunity, to do it
pete_dushenski: ok i can see that
pete_dushenski: still depends on whether you see value in it, or imagine yourself as 'above such barbarity'
pete_dushenski: or 'mebbe there's another way'
pete_dushenski: 'a better way' (tm)
asciilifeform: to the extent we even have an accurate picture of a non-fictional man 'snowden' - he isn't particularly clever.
asciilifeform: supposedly, e.g., 'waited to leak because didn't want to sink obama election' etc.
pete_dushenski: lol
pete_dushenski: definitely an utopian idealist streak in there
asciilifeform: very much, going by the public statements, a believer in some idea of a return to a mythical 'old' usg
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 92373 @ 0.00024603 = 22.7265 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: that didn't 'need' to be killed
pete_dushenski: yup. like your old dog that just needs another surgery to return her to her former puppious glory
asciilifeform: at some point, somebody could publish a compendium of everything herr snowden spoke under actual gpg signature
asciilifeform: (is this a null set ?)
pete_dushenski: i'd be surprised if it was
asciilifeform: because 'we fuck people but do business with keys' (TM)
asciilifeform: in so far as this compendium remains hypothetical - snowden's beliefs are 'angels on a pin'
pete_dushenski: interviews shed some light as to his stances, i think it's pretty clear.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: did he sign'em ?
pete_dushenski: well, not the videos
asciilifeform: or, for that matter, the documents ?
asciilifeform: (if he had, we wouldn't necessarily know, the greenwald gang mutilated all beyond recognition)
pete_dushenski: greenwald, i ain't, so you'll have to ask him
pete_dushenski: right.
pete_dushenski: but there's no shortage of video about
asciilifeform: since mircea_popescu is asleep, i shall fill in for him, and point out that: not signed - not vouched for by anyone in wot - may as well be a piece of litter on the street.
asciilifeform: a bottle washed up from the sea.
asciilifeform: any and all 'snowden interviews' fall into this class of item
asciilifeform: the message in the bottle may be true. or not
pete_dushenski: well do we even know his fingerprint or have his public key block ?
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: there is some key, somewhere, supposedly associated with the character.
assbot: ... ( )
pete_dushenski: ^heh, pgp key associated with 'hushmail' acct
assbot: Public Key Server -- Get "0x4db8a08821b7141f " ... ( )
asciilifeform: that key, properly speaking, -is- snowden
asciilifeform: the -other- snowdens are dubious in whatever ways
asciilifeform: the more so, to the extent they appear to diverge from the authentifiable one.
pete_dushenski: i won't really argue that.
pete_dushenski: twould be to argue against maffs
asciilifeform: not sure how many folks are ready for this mental leap
asciilifeform: just as there were people who could not make the leap to 'wire is lifeless and small but can kill elephant'
asciilifeform: but it remains
pete_dushenski: as ever, many will be left behind.
asciilifeform: that - to a historian, or whatever other kind of remote third party - it is keys that 'are people'
asciilifeform: while people, to the extent that they cannot be connected with a key, are just bags of meat.
pete_dushenski: right. w/o keys, we'd just be blobs of flesh and bone, indistinguishable from any other
pete_dushenski: lol
asciilifeform: if anyone recalls, iirc it was in a mircea_popescu article that we find observation that 'to this day the holes in the mains socket have to remain small'
pete_dushenski: such an echo chamber, this place
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: the basic concept is due to hanbot's 'shall be delivered'
pete_dushenski: i'm not familiar with said concept.
pete_dushenski: !s shall be delivered
assbot: 29 results for 'shall be delivered' :
pete_dushenski expects bfl-related forum posts
assbot: Shall be Delivered | The Whet ... ( )
asciilifeform: ^ monumental masterpiece
asciilifeform: in all seriousness.
asciilifeform: a good bit of why i even came to this place
pete_dushenski: huh. fancy that.
asciilifeform: like 'the cold equations', but done -right-
asciilifeform: if i were to live for another twenty whole years, i could wish to produce something equalling this.
pete_dushenski: ah, i remember reading jurov's piece from that competition as well.
pete_dushenski: i'd like to see another such competition one of these days
BingoBoingo: !up eric
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 79277 @ 0.00024249 = 19.2239 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: rewatching citizen4 snowden gedanken film. Forgot they showed the NSA facility under construction in Mormon Judea as a backdrop for so many narrations. Awfully close to the interstate.
BingoBoingo: Federal appellate court room also featured. Looks more drab the local county oppression centers.
BingoBoingo: Douche DOJ lawyer in a pedo bow tie
BingoBoingo: Also video judge broadcasting from hospital chapel
BingoBoingo: !up ColinT
BingoBoingo: Jacob Appelbaum setting OWS fuckers up for greater surveillance...
BingoBoingo: Such great lulz in this film for decompression
BingoBoingo: Glen Greenwald opening the conversation with Snowden by trying to write a story about snowden during day 1 of year 0
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31072 @ 0.00024074 = 7.4803 BTC [-]
pete_dushenski: ;;later tell hanbot those last two paragraphs of 'shall be delivered' ... goosebumps.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 65300 @ 0.00024328 = 15.8862 BTC [+] {3}
BingoBoingo: TEMPORA
BingoBoingo: And then... Greenwald shuts down his Guardian coworker
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: comment replied, in case you dun check on these things.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: "Magic Mantle of Power" was Snowden's technical term for the red hood
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33600 @ 0.00024639 = 8.2787 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37228 @ 0.00024639 = 9.1726 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 80520 @ 0.00025435 = 20.4803 BTC [+] {3}
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: tenure does not exist in canada? << it does. but like a thursday night of caviar and dom p, isn't for everyone.
pete_dushenski: or mebbe it was only open to kokkarinen in city he didn't want to live in.
pete_dushenski: some are more 'mobile' than others
pete_dushenski: << heh. i also received this e-mail
assbot: Logged on 09-04-2015 02:22:03; BingoBoingo: danielpbarron:
BingoBoingo did not
pete_dushenski: "Okey dokey, but this smells very much like a conspiracy theory. Especially the action item at the end: "spread the word." If you had ended with "These are the concrete things we all should be doing" then I'd be more sympathetic... assuming those things weren't just "BE EXTRA PARANOID! THEY ARE OUT TO GET US!" "
pete_dushenski: ^via chief satoshi dress-up artist :
assbot: gavinandresen comments on There is a targeted attack on Bitcoin occurring right now, coordinated by national agencies. I know this because I am an insider with prior involvement in a key operation. ... ( )
pete_dushenski: such lulz, this guy!
ben_vulpes: <nubbins`> [03:53] and i walk around for a half hour... rolling it << i chased myself around my brain trying to get a look at myself for an hour or four on acid this one time
pete_dushenski: mebbe when john oliver wears holes in his knee pads, gavin can fill in
pete_dushenski: heya ben_vulpes
ben_vulpes: evening pete_dushenski
pete_dushenski: it goes ?
ben_vulpes: ca va?
ben_vulpes: well, well.
pete_dushenski: lol yup. twas a full, productive day. i'll sleep well tonight
ben_vulpes: lucky you
ben_vulpes: i'll probably stare at the ceiling for an hour or two, thinking about the infinite amount of shit i should be taking care of before clocking out for the con
ben_vulpes: arbeit macht frei
pete_dushenski: ah, you leave so soon ?
ben_vulpes: tuesday morning. some 24 hours of travel, each way.
ben_vulpes: for the serene republic!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16900 @ 0.00024795 = 4.1904 BTC [-]
ben_vulpes: <decimation> [04:16] yeah I don't think they are serious, apparently it partially depends on visitors winding it << tbh i find this delightful and entertaining
ben_vulpes: perhaps a whole cult springs up around it someday - "to wind the clock!"
pete_dushenski: it wouldn't be much less travel from here to meat-b-a. timisoara woulda been faster to travel to.
pete_dushenski: how many days are you gone in total ?
ben_vulpes: 10.
pete_dushenski: sweetness
ben_vulpes: "lifestyle business", i keep reminding myself while reviewing the books.
pete_dushenski: i have nfi what you're talking about. lol which books be these?
ben_vulpes: i plan to bike around, wander around a few neighborhoods, post up in cafés to get some personal hax in, take tango lessons in the evening, nap, eat steak drink wine, sleep, repeat, con, etc.
ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski: "books" << the ledgers?!
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell mircea_popescu heh maybe i'm not the worst jew after all
gribble: The operation succeeded.
pete_dushenski: lolk stan already took that award anyways
pete_dushenski: but seriously jeez you make 'the ledgers' sound like the fuckin dead sea scrolls
ben_vulpes: bookkeeping's fucking important.
pete_dushenski: well, this'd go back to that 'did the burning of alexandria's library matter or nyot' question
ben_vulpes: how?
pete_dushenski: well in that memories, skills, and ideas, are passed down regardless of whether they're recoverable in written form 2,000 years later
pete_dushenski: people have dozens of other avenues for information distribution and storage other than centralised paper recrods
pete_dushenski: records*
ben_vulpes: no man, when i say "the books" i mean my derpy little company's p/l statements, outgoing bills, outstanding invoices, the like
pete_dushenski: o well then that was a tangent for nothing ;/
pete_dushenski: !b 8
assbot: Last 8 lines bashed and pending review. ( )
ben_vulpes: point being that some weeks i'm very glad to have structured my life as i've done so.
pete_dushenski: this being one of those weeks ?
ben_vulpes: next tuesday when i punch out for ten days will definitely.
pete_dushenski: mobility is a hell of a drug, and a hell of a luxury
ben_vulpes: heh i actually hate running around
ben_vulpes: but *doing a thing* is different.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42550 @ 0.00024795 = 10.5503 BTC [-]
pete_dushenski: and what a thing it'll be. you boys will have a blast
ben_vulpes: it'll be a trip, that's for sure.
pete_dushenski: and this channel will be awfully quiet without you, mp, and alf!
ben_vulpes: light logs the past few days even
ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> [04:58] << shivers and nightmares
assbot: Shall be Delivered | The Whet ... ( )
ben_vulpes: every time, pretty much.
pete_dushenski: quiet trilema too. i imagine that there are many preparations underway for your arrival :)
ben_vulpes: i've been hardening my liver
ben_vulpes: and will doubtless get drunk under the table by asciilifeform
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20960 @ 0.00025557 = 5.3567 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11200 @ 0.00025601 = 2.8673 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 87406 @ 0.00025612 = 22.3864 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29722 @ 0.00024795 = 7.3696 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43678 @ 0.00024552 = 10.7238 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5185 @ 0.00024716 = 1.2815 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69600 @ 0.00024598 = 17.1202 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53170 @ 0.00024683 = 13.124 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66310 @ 0.00025667 = 17.0198 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 351360 | Current Difficulty: 4.944639068824144E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 352799 | Next Difficulty In: 1439 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 19 hours, 40 minutes, and 9 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 48126215253.6 | Estimated Percent Change: -2.66991
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 65300 @ 0.00024857 = 16.2316 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36600 @ 0.00024663 = 9.0267 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20050 @ 0.00024686 = 4.9495 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33550 @ 0.00024436 = 8.1983 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48900 @ 0.00024341 = 11.9027 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56950 @ 0.00024925 = 14.1948 BTC [+]
jurov: hello
jurov: mircea_popescu: withdrawals pls
mats: heh
assbot: Microsoft creates a container for Windows - Computerworld ... ( )
davout: "Microsoft creates a container for Windows, reinvents toilet bowl"
mats: this is a bad idea and so is ntoskrnl support for docker
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15000 @ 0.0002572 = 3.858 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 293850 @ 0.00026252 = 77.1415 BTC [+] {6}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 86500 @ 0.0002433 = 21.0455 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 84150 @ 0.0002507 = 21.0964 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66350 @ 0.00026549 = 17.6153 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 61250 @ 0.00026457 = 16.2049 BTC [-]
funkenstein_: this guy wrote a couple papers over a year ago, claiming vulns in mining
funkenstein_: and
funkenstein_: totally bogus
funkenstein_: if any of you care i can write it up
fluffypony: funkenstein_: the game theoretic Nash Equilibrium stuff isn't bogus, as far as I can see
Adlai: what is there to write about it, at this point, beyond "no mining pool operator is honest enough to publicly disclose their selfish mining hashrate allocation"?
fluffypony: it is in the best interest of larger mining pools to attack smaller ones, for the most part, and even to attack each other (as long as it isn't a matter of mutually assured destruction)
funkenstein_: i'm not saying game theory is bogus, but their analysis of the return based on the so-called attack
fluffypony: oh I haven't looked at their specific data, just what they were generally positing
funkenstein_: the "selfish mining" suggests that not broadcasting a found block could somehow help you
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70900 @ 0.00026742 = 18.9601 BTC [+] {4}
funkenstein_: the other one suggests that mining for a pool and throwing away found blocks could somehow help you
Adlai: it helps you by hurting your enemy worse than it hurts you, for certain ratios between your total available hashpower, your selfish-allocated-hashpower, and the hashpower under attack
funkenstein_: Adlai, their formulae are flawed.. they assume total network hashrate -m- is the same even though you are throwing away solved blocks
funkenstein_: also calling somebody an enemy and then hurting them is not rational behavior. looking at your collected BTC is rational behavior.
funkenstein_: throwing money away is hardly an "attack"
mircea_popescu: jurov you still need this ?
mircea_popescu: funkenstein_ i'd read it.
mircea_popescu: fluffypony how is it not ?
jurov: what?
mircea_popescu: jurov you highlighted me for withdrawals. you still need it ?
fluffypony: mircea_popescu: how is what not?
jurov: of course. and it's not me, but a coinbr client
mircea_popescu: dude am i the only one with a scrollback or something. how is the "nash equilibrium" stuff sensible.
funkenstein_: ok cool, I'll give it a shot :)
mircea_popescu: even leaving aside the rank nonsense of the particular "analysis". the concept that it is somehow game-theoretic feasible for a one-of-many arrangement to attack everyone is at least bizarre.
mircea_popescu: territoriality developed in living things for instance specifically to try and pierce this problem.
fluffypony: mining pools aren't laid out like that though
mircea_popescu: so model a case for me ?
fluffypony: they're super concentrated
fluffypony: two mining pools that control 25% of the hashrate each, mining pool A and B
mircea_popescu: so ? even if there's only two - the +ev outcome is collaboration not hostility.
mircea_popescu: which is the real risk here : if pools collaborate TOO MUCH we end up with usg 2.0
fluffypony: it is in A's best interest to setup a new pool, C, and then DDoS B so that C's % of the hashrate grows
mircea_popescu: unless there's actually C1...Cn and any of THEIR hash rate grows.
fluffypony: in fact, since the cost of starting and operating a pool is low, and they already have the technical know-how, they can setup a whole hoard of seemingly legitimate pools
fluffypony: and attack all the pools they don't want
mircea_popescu: no, because the cost is principally social.
mircea_popescu: you seem to go on this remnant of forum dumb where the technical costs are relevant in bitcoin. they are not.
mircea_popescu: the barrier to entry to making mpex is not "making the software". same for pools,
fluffypony: but we can't observe the social fabric
funkenstein_: they don't mention DDOS in the papers anyway
mircea_popescu: same for a wallet or anything.
mircea_popescu: fluffypony the fact we can't observe it doesn't allow us to value it at 0.
fluffypony: because the owner of pool A and pool B could be the same
fluffypony: and miners don't care who owns a pool
mircea_popescu: funkenstein_ we left aside the idiots in question and are discussing the theoretic theory.
fluffypony: just that it has low latency and is stable
funkenstein_: lol good move
mircea_popescu: miners care deeply who owns a pool.
mircea_popescu: which is why large miners make their own.
Adlai is genuinely curious to see whether funkenstein_'s criticism extends beyond "this behavior is not rational, for me and my rational friends"
mircea_popescu: small miners don't care, but this is universal - they don't care about anything, including rig safety.
mircea_popescu: jurov upon inspection seems it went out a while ago ?
Adlai: the observation which seems correct is that they don't account for the drop in difficulty caused by hashpower diverted towards attack... but i'm not certain that this lack of accounting is in their favor
mircea_popescu: which attack is this ?
Adlai: withholding valid blocks from competing pools
mircea_popescu: eh that's been done to death.
funkenstein_: the real equilibrium is to send zero of your miners off to throw their hash rate at nothing
mircea_popescu: the discussion i mean. there's srsly nothing there.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54900 @ 0.00025801 = 14.1647 BTC [-]
Adlai: afaict, the only people who can credibly back up such a statement are pool operators
fluffypony: mircea_popescu: "miners care deeply who owns a pool" - we're getting into the realm of the anecdotal here, the mining farms I supply ASIC racks to don't care about the people running the pools they use at all, and they don't run their own
fluffypony: you may know some that do
mircea_popescu shrugs. derps in reddit care who said god hates faggots. yet people who actually have stuff riding on this don't care about stuff that matters. i dunno, seems rather anecdotal.
Adlai: and they can't credibly say "we're not withholding blocks from competing pools", only "our submitted shares are not suggestive of such an attack being performed against us"
mircea_popescu: Adlai the attack itself, as a model, does not work.
mircea_popescu: fluffypony if miners actually don't care, how do you explain 50btc/btcguild's demise after their collusion with gavin last year ?
jurov: mircea_popescu yes it did, nm
Adlai: it may indeed be a DoS on minds, withholding relevant problems by suggesting subtly irrelevant ones in their stead
mircea_popescu: i mean... they should still be here, riught ? they owned a year ago, right ? what happened ?
mircea_popescu: yet they're gone.
fluffypony: they're not talking about a situation like that
mircea_popescu: someone, somewhere, must have cared.
fluffypony: they're talking about a surreptitious attack where the attacker is not known
mircea_popescu: right. so people don't care unless they do ?
fluffypony: even though, in reality, it is a competing pool
mircea_popescu: right.
fluffypony: Pool A won't attack Pool B and then put out a blog post bragging about it
Adlai: and, miner C could be mining on pool A, and getting paid according to pool A's public stats, but actually be "working" on an attack against pool B
mircea_popescu: fluffypony let's see this. pool A has 25% of hash rate. pool B has 30% of hash rate. there's 45 other pools each with 1%.
mircea_popescu: now, pool A does the following :
mircea_popescu: 1. makes 500 new pools. complete with persuasive admins (1 per) who keep social media profiles etc.
mircea_popescu: 2. ddos' pool B. as if ddos is not actually a solved problem.
Adlai: ultimately funkenstein_'s article could consist entirely of a link to
assbot: ... ( )
mircea_popescu: as a result of 1 and 2, 50% of people mining on B move, leaving it with 11% hash rate. the resulting 24% difference moves to pools, 90% of which are A's.
mircea_popescu: right ?
mircea_popescu: the cost of 1) is what, 100k ? 500k ? the cost of 2) is what, 100k ? 500k ? the benefit from the gained market share is... what ?
fluffypony: DDoS isn't a solved problem for Stratum, and especially not for mining where latency is of the utmost concern
mircea_popescu: wait, a pool makes virtually no money.
mircea_popescu: this attack makes 0 sense.
mircea_popescu: do you have any idea how long it'd take a pool (just that, nothing else) to make back 100 dollars after server costs ?
fluffypony: miners configure their mining setup with failover pools, but it failsover based on latency as well as a pool being unreachable
fluffypony: so all they have to do is inconvenience the pool and miners will failover
mircea_popescu: so
Adlai: why is ddos an issue here? this attack is not a ddos
mircea_popescu: Adlai the "withholding" thing is idiocy of prime order. it existe,d historically (ie, cca 2011) and was a problem for early pools. but it was SHARE withholding, not block withholding. it was fixed meanwhile.
fluffypony: also, as I understand it, we're talking about a future time when running a pool *is* more profitable than it is now
mircea_popescu: people became intellectually enamoured with it and keep spouting it everywhere, as a sort of cargo-cult bitcoin "knowledges"
mircea_popescu: fluffypony yes fluffs, in a game theoretic universe where cows are spherical and it rains glass, one could accidentally make a cow snowglobe.
fluffypony moooooos
mircea_popescu: and that's my point here : these are discussions of no substance used by reddit dorks to be discussing things.
mircea_popescu: bitcoin equivalent of "did leia really enjoy it" or w/e.
Adlai: the really funny bit from the (second) paper is "This would push miners to join private pools which can verify that their registered miners do not withhold blocks"
Adlai: the only way to _verify_ that your miners haven't withheld blocks, rather than trusting their word for it, is to check those nonces yourself
mircea_popescu: trivially solved with wot anyway.
Adlai: how?
mircea_popescu: because identity being expensive, it's no longer productive to attack.
Adlai: such an attack, properly executed, would be indistinguishable from bad luck
mircea_popescu: orly.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82900 @ 0.00026878 = 22.2819 BTC [+] {3}
mircea_popescu: so i give you nonces 1-100 to hash , and fluffy nonces 101-200. and you report nothing found, and he reports nothing found. and then one day a block on nonce 76 is found and you are forever fucked.
Adlai: "one day"?
mircea_popescu: yes.
Adlai: a when the same merkle root shows up again?
Adlai: as you like to say - mkay.
mircea_popescu: or when i feel like testing some nonce blocks,.
mircea_popescu: which, after all, i can do.
Adlai: sure, but now we're back to
assbot: Logged on 09-04-2015 12:34:19; Adlai: the only way to _verify_ that your miners haven't withheld blocks, rather than trusting their word for it, is to check those nonces yourself
mircea_popescu: but the problem is solved by a wot.
Adlai: addressed != solvedh
mircea_popescu: which is what this is : inexistent problems that don't exist being misunderstood as existing by people who don't understand how anything works, and then failing to see that even should they exist, the solution also exists.
mircea_popescu: the rub, of course, being the entire "oh but bitcoin is anonymous"
mircea_popescu: no it's not fucking anonymous. it's pseudonymous. different fucking things. identity still exists!
mats: interesting.
assbot: ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 75000 @ 0.00026894 = 20.1705 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: << muy butthurt.
assbot: The Terrible Unspoken Implications Of Star Wars Slave Leia ... ( )
mircea_popescu: fwiw, i had no idea leia is supposed to be anything BUT the slave chick.
mircea_popescu: dude with the article must have had some pretty odd searches in the past. my "google images" for princess leia consists of 20 hits of the woman wearing some sort of white overalls, with the 17th being her in actual atire.
mircea_popescu: ah, finally found the truely iconic max hardcore.
assbot: ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26750 @ 0.00026178 = 7.0026 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: mats 100 bucks ? srsly ?
mats: heh. tacit admission that you can't buy this kinda time either way, imo.
mircea_popescu: "In order to encourage participation we would like to be able to award more substantial prizes. If you would like to donate to this cause, please contact us!"
mircea_popescu: yeah, herp, contact "us". who the fuck are us.
mircea_popescu: mats well, it's training, i gather. trainee pieces aren't either useful or valuable, per se. so you're not really "buying" anything.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 97350 @ 0.00026947 = 26.2329 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21400 @ 0.00026364 = 5.6419 BTC [-]
lobbes: re: withholding blocks. So basically, mircea_popescu, you are saying that anything gained from withholding said blocks would be outweighed by the potential destruction of one's reputation (which is expensive to build)?
lobbes: but to Adlai's point, could there not be one derp out there who 'withholds' enough until that 'one day' to make it worth it (in his eyes)?
lobbes: perhaps I am missing something
Adlai: if miners and pool operators choose to conduct such attacks against eachother (note that the attacks are against eachother, not against "bitcoin"), they can be fought... the attack becomes more expensive, and mining becomes more expensive, due to the defense
Adlai: with "the defense" taking some form such as a pool operator negrating a miner who has an unreasonable dropoff of share-finding luck just below the difficulty threshhold
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 80950 @ 0.00027136 = 21.9666 BTC [+] {2}
lobbes: hmm, okay that makes sense
Adlai: this is expensive for the pool operator because he needs to send redundant work units to various miners, to get them checking eachother
lobbes: so the 'attacker' is disincentivized due to this rising cost, and the fact that 'statistically' he is being outed by not finding his shares at the expected rate (thus, reputation suffers)
danielpbarron: height=318707 vs height=222108
bitstein: "I'm not dead yet!"
assbot: Stellar Consensus Protocol: Proof and Code - Stellar ... ( )
bitstein: "Is the new system live? Not yet."
bitstein: Still cracks me up: "There are at least 177 instances in which ripple and stellar’s code matched up. In its haste to get its currency established, Stellar simply copied ripple’s open-source code but evidently its search-and-replace missed many instances where the code still says 'ripple.'"
assbot: The Race to Replace Bitcoin | Observer ... ( )
Chillum: my new computer is so quiet it seems like something is missing
mats: such incompetence. how hard is it to use sed?
lobbes: 'but evidently its search-and-replace missed many instances where the code still says 'ripple.' < l0l
Adlai: according to the papers' model: there is no incentive to be the first attacker, but there is incentive to be the Nth, N+1st, etc
Adlai: painting this picture of a mining commons on the brink of tragedy
Adlai: concern trolling in a fancy typeface
bitstein: At SXSW, I snuck into a Bitcoin 2.0 panel Jed McCaleb was on. During the Q&A I got up and asked, “Last December the Stellar blog had a post called ‘Safety, liveness and fault tolerance—the consensus choices’ that described how there was a fork in the ledger and subsequently, Stellar had essentially collapsed into a centralized system. Can you elaborate on what happened and why people should trust Stellar in its aftermath?” He
bitstein: gave a long answer describing the fork and giving lip service to this new consensus mechanism in the works, but failed to address the second part. So before they moved on, I followed up, “But right now, Stellar is a centralized system?” He begrudgingly responded, “It runs on one node, yes.” After my question they all went right on back to talking about how awful centralization is and how great the decentralized future is.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22400 @ 0.00027201 = 6.093 BTC [+]
mats: i'm confused as to Kaminsky's role in all this
mats: conned or what? lent his name for a buck to some trash?
funkenstein_: did kaminsky do anything other than allow his name listed as technical advisor?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 75200 @ 0.00026971 = 20.2822 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15000 @ 0.00026797 = 4.0196 BTC [-]
mats: dunno.
assbot: Intel ME huffman dictionaries - Unhuffme v2.3 ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58000 @ 0.00027252 = 15.8062 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7200 @ 0.00026797 = 1.9294 BTC [-]
assbot: Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34584 @ 0.00026507 = 9.1672 BTC [-]
ben_vulpes: huehuehuehu
[]bot: Bet placed: 3.5 BTC for No on "Gold to drop under $1000 before August 2015" Odds: 11(Y):89(N) by coin, 13(Y):87(N) by weight. Total bet: 9.21237 BTC. Current weight: 82,570.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 86035 @ 0.00026076 = 22.4345 BTC [-] {3}
[]bot: Bet placed: 2.166 BTC for No on "Bitcoin to drop under $150 before July" Odds: 14(Y):86(N) by coin, 15(Y):85(N) by weight. Total bet: 15.79172615 BTC. Current weight: 86,260.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8417 @ 0.00025739 = 2.1665 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 207700 @ 0.00025817 = 53.6219 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82813 @ 0.00025446 = 21.0726 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70600 @ 0.00024972 = 17.6302 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55200 @ 0.00026507 = 14.6319 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57200 @ 0.00026507 = 15.162 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: lobbes no dude, i am saying about 50 other things.
mircea_popescu: model this attack and i'll show you one thin that's wrong with it enough to sink it.
mircea_popescu: i'm never going to be able to show you ALL the things that are wrong wqith it, being that it's nonsense.
mircea_popescu: you're like the guy going "so mp you're saying the perpetuum mobile could not exist because X ?" sure, x if you want it.
funkenstein_: <-- my writeup from earlier convo
assbot: e-Print archive, viXra:1504.0072, “The Majority is Enough” a Rebuttal of Two Proposed Vulnerabilities of Bitcoin Mining ... ( )
mircea_popescu: bitstein the observer makes the valid code replace point, but STILL names its article "the race to replace bitcoin". as fucking if. "the race to waste imbecile capitalist money, the new hot valley term for what was once known as a venture capitalist" was radioactive or something.
mircea_popescu: <mats> such incompetence. how hard is it to use sed? << real muppets use excel.
mircea_popescu: <Adlai> concern trolling in a fancy typeface << word.
mircea_popescu: <mats> conned or what? lent his name for a buck to some trash? << intelligent people have a lot of trouble avoiding locklin's mistake.
mircea_popescu: da fuck is vixra.
funkenstein_: arxiv backwards
mircea_popescu: and im not reading a pdf. what the fuck funkenstein_ .
funkenstein_: lol i throw it on a blog then
mircea_popescu: dude...srsly. a walled garden/proprietary platform is bad in and of itself. it's not bad only if it becomes big.
mircea_popescu: the difference between this stupid diqus shit and just writing for gawker is 0.
mircea_popescu: own your content, AND EVERYTHING ABOUT IT. you don't need someone else deciding anything whatsoever. not what url to use. not when to "put up a warning page". not. ANYTHING.
funkenstein_: hmm i hadn't thought of it like that
mircea_popescu: you don't want me to think "hey that was a great piece, i wonder IF ARXIV ORG HAS MORE"
mircea_popescu: fuck them. you want me to tihnk "i wonder if you have more"
mircea_popescu: you know ellison ? << watch this.
assbot: Harlan Ellison -- Pay the Writer - YouTube ... ( )
mircea_popescu: !up ascii_field
ascii_field: re: the whole pdf thing ...
ascii_field: it would help if there were actually a proper replacement for it.
ascii_field: (html plus jpegs are not one)
mircea_popescu: then people wonder about kaminsky. EXACT SAME THING. you lot have been so mentally stunted by the stupid welfare state, you do this sort of shit. "oh, i wonder if arxiv backwards . org paid funkenstein_ anything". no dude, they didn't, he's just silly like that. like everyone in that country.
mircea_popescu: ascii_field "replacement" in what sense ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35002 @ 0.00024832 = 8.6917 BTC [-]
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: in the sense of accurate and resolution-independent mapping to flattened dead tree
funkenstein_: ascii_field how about .ps
ascii_field: funkenstein_: pdf is more or less ps plus a bit of header
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24292 @ 0.00026686 = 6.4826 BTC [+] {2}
funkenstein_: mircea_popescu, their (arxiv / vixra) competion is journals that charge the author per page
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22800 @ 0.00024832 = 5.6617 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: !up Guest63251
mircea_popescu: no dude, that's how *they hope to make money*. later on. once "we" and "contact us" have got enough of this fuzzy baseless trust made by appealing to a certain naivity of the intelligent.
mircea_popescu: "o look, they're hippy dippy cool and got cat pictures". what "they" ? and it's not THEIR fucking cat, either.
ascii_field: plankton filter feeders.
mircea_popescu: 'cause that's all they know, facebook model. pretend like "we" are interacting with the stakeholders but stay anonymous, and then if/when this gets big enough, assert a new identity and whoopdeedoo, claim you're worth a billion.
mircea_popescu: "because people follow us". well fuck you, back when YOU were anonymous, joe schmoe and lucy lue followed you. not "people".
mircea_popescu: now that you wish to be facebook inc, suddenly *they* gotta be you know "people", to take the place of the vague "we".
mircea_popescu: oldest scam in the book, this identity transfer. keep your identity, it's yours.
mircea_popescu: and for that matter, it's not only the most valuable thing you'll ever have - it's outright the only one.
mircea_popescu: !up ascii_field
mircea_popescu: ascii_field how about forget .ps which is fine, and .tex
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: aha lol 'tabletrons' etc. viewer gadgets expected to render .tex now ?
mircea_popescu: the failure of widgets is a problem of the widgetmaker. do not ask me to solve it till i market a widget.
ascii_field: and, to use gnu's terminology, .tex is often 'not the preferred format for modification' - as in, it is frequently machine-generated
mircea_popescu: ascii_field dude, pdf is not for modification either
mircea_popescu: you wanna modify it, use a txt
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: you are proposing equivalent of selling raw crude at the petrol station
mircea_popescu: pdfs are ALWAYS machine generate.d
mircea_popescu: what the fuck you wrote one by hand ?!
Chillum: Portable Defence Failure
ascii_field: .tex plus illustrations, whatever perl crud etc. was used to munge data into figures, possible latex preprocessing, etc. sometimes takes GB of ram and hour of fast cpu
ascii_field: at least for academic papers, or high res scans
ascii_field: to go to raster of given res, that is
mircea_popescu: so does pdf, in same conditions. except you gotta use either a windows bundle or else more perl crud munged together.
ascii_field: -to- pdf
mircea_popescu: right
ascii_field: but pointing out that asking printer or tablet makers to build machines which can swallow .tex is a nonstarter
mircea_popescu: every printer i ever saw ate tex wtf.
mircea_popescu: you mean like a desktop ?
ascii_field: -unprocessed- tex
ascii_field: this is quite like proposing that bitcoind be built -on- the pogo.
mircea_popescu: so because -unprocessed- pdf doesn't actually exist you figure this is an argument ?
ascii_field: at every boot.
ascii_field: i actually do not like pdf, for various reasons, some of which overlap with mircea_popescu's. i prefer a wavelet-compressed format, 'djvu'
ascii_field: but don't try to say 'you should like scrolling and pixellated graphics, forget about paper and author-specified pagination'
ascii_field: because fuck no.
mircea_popescu: i dunno im saying this.
ascii_field: the 'we want everything in www-readable plain text' concept sorta implies.
mircea_popescu: but fwiw, my experience as an actual author is that the html format is WAY better than the pdf format for the web, which is why trilema is not delivered in pdfs.
mircea_popescu: now, one's experience may vary, i've not printed a book in a decade,
mircea_popescu: but it still seems to me a narrow corner case notrly contemplated here.
ascii_field: www works fine for text and the occasional bitmap
ascii_field: but there are folks who read maths, or blueprints, or scanned historical documents.
mircea_popescu: actually trilema as-is works better for ALL of these than pdf.
ascii_field: wut
mircea_popescu: me being a folk who reads maths, and historeical documents. even the original blueprint.
mircea_popescu: ? or what part specifically ?
assbot: Come see me dream math. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( )
ascii_field: i insist on these to be either on a) paper b) device with dimensions and pixel density of paper, which i own - but in both cases - retaining the original pagination
ascii_field: and fucking -hate- scrolling
mircea_popescu: you hate scrolling ?
ascii_field: aha
mircea_popescu: yeah, well there it is.
mircea_popescu: i grant you, if you hate scrolling you'll have to engage in strange to compensate.
ascii_field: i like moving eyeballs in y as well as x axis
ascii_field: this is normal!
mircea_popescu: normal ?
ascii_field: x-only is like seeing life through a tank periscope
mircea_popescu: as in "what everyone does" normal or as in "what should be done" normative-normal ?
ascii_field: as in what the meat likes
ascii_field: because of how it was shaped
mircea_popescu: your meat knows ?
ascii_field: sorta like mircea_popescu's insistence on 1cm tall characters
ascii_field: the meat - otherwise rebells
mircea_popescu: do you also hate inequal pixel sizes ? like, you know, is your monitor square ?
ben_vulpes: yeah mircea_popescu how does your meat know that 1cm?
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: would love a square display with square pixels
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes at least my thing's consistent.
ben_vulpes: consistently arbitrary.
mircea_popescu: ascii_field but do you have one ?
ascii_field: nope
mircea_popescu: because if you don't, seems to me you're looking through that tank periscope anyway
mircea_popescu: given that people's horiz precision is what, 3x their vert precision.
mircea_popescu: also ... normal.
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: what i do have is 4 lcd laid out in such a way as to fill my field of vision
ascii_field: so no, no periscope.
mircea_popescu: lol.
mircea_popescu: but the pixels themselves! every inch is 100 sideways and 40 vertically.
ascii_field: though out here i am in a 'tank', yes
mircea_popescu: anyway. i don't hate scrolling. i hate the situation where my field is fixed.
mircea_popescu: scrolling provides a hook into endlessness.
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: the shape of the pixels is considerably less interesting if you have ones sufficiently small to enable affine transforms of whatever kind you like, without visible distortion
mircea_popescu: and it's how i get through a million words a day.
mircea_popescu: ascii_field you're eliding the point. the fact that your misshapen pixels allow you to not see the distortion means your meat is made to look through a tank periscope in the first place.
mircea_popescu: if it weren't, the square eye wouldn't put 3x more focus on horiz than it puts on vert sync.
ascii_field: i suppose you could also say that i scroll, but simply prefer to do it with eyes rather than fingers
mircea_popescu: ascii_field the problem is that you always have a finite workspace.
ascii_field: re: pagination - author-controlled pagination, i find, is often valuable information
mircea_popescu: i find the very concept of "page" retarded.
ascii_field: think of every time you have to wiggle the y axis to fit a figure on the display
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27900 @ 0.00025643 = 7.1544 BTC [+]
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: i find reading anything - other than plain text - not designed with a particular viewport geometry in mind - physically painful.
ascii_field: like an ill-fitting set of clothing
ascii_field: designed for no particular body
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29500 @ 0.00027062 = 7.9833 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: well don't look at the sky then.
ascii_field does not often read the sky
mircea_popescu: for this reason ?
mircea_popescu: and is your underwear bespoke ?
ascii_field: no, because not much of an astronomer these days
mircea_popescu: it'd seem to me it'd be more painful to have panties made for no particular cock than you know, a shirt.
ascii_field: underwear << i would if i could (TM)
mircea_popescu: well... my tailor here'd prolly do it. it'd be weird as all fuck... but hey.
mircea_popescu: it never occured to me to ask for tailored undies.
ascii_field would wear tailored fucking socks if he could
mircea_popescu: i srsly couldn't be bothered.
ascii_field: tailors ought to use 3d scanner, imho
ascii_field: but afaik none do
ascii_field: then again what do i know of tailors
mircea_popescu: stupid idea.
ascii_field: less than i know of surgeons
mircea_popescu: tailor tailors for the body, it's sinnewy depths, not for the skinshape.
mircea_popescu: you'd have to sonar it.
ascii_field: so then.
ascii_field: sonar.
mircea_popescu: assbot disapproves.
mircea_popescu: !up ascii_field
ascii_field: l0l
ascii_field: hell, nmr it
mircea_popescu: yeah, so instead of one very competent craftsman,
mircea_popescu: have a bunch of techs and mandatory clothing insurance.
ascii_field: l0l!
ascii_field: !s tuba compressor
assbot: 2 results for 'tuba compressor' :
ascii_field: re: socks: i am reminded of dan mocsny's piece on how very few people can give honest answer to the question of whether they want, e.g., a harem - because they don't have the option in menu
ascii_field: perhaps i -wouldn't- wear tailored socks, in practice
mircea_popescu: "option" ? in "menu" ?!
mircea_popescu: yeah, you wouldn't.
ascii_field: but recall the thirsty man in the desert who 'could drink a river'
mircea_popescu: myeah.
mircea_popescu: anyway, who the fuck gets women off a menu
mircea_popescu: you know the harem is not like, a block of cheese. it's an abstract name given to a complex social reality.
chetty: ascii_field, also know as can't think outside the box
mircea_popescu: like you know, "an empire". yes the empire may sink, but usually not in water.
ascii_field: chetty: not that one cannot use imagination. but it is folly to say 'i would not want atomic dirigible' unless that choice is actually there, like the decision of whether to buy a laser printer
mircea_popescu: chetty lol @those tomatoes.
mircea_popescu: ascii_field note that i wasn't commenting on whether i or anyone else would or not would want x. merely on how much sense x makes, given other things.
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: who the fuck gets women off a menu << the fella with an already-assembled harem, such as mircea_popescu ?
mircea_popescu: maybe you want an ak with a curved barrel, for all i care.
mircea_popescu: ascii_field mno.
ascii_field: ak with a curved barrel << krummlauf !
mircea_popescu: yeah the nazis had something
mircea_popescu: stupid idea, but hey, they did have it.
ascii_field: ultra-famous
ascii_field: and not obviously a bad idea under the circumstances
mircea_popescu: exactly.
mircea_popescu: obviously a bad idea, just not in their circumstances.
mircea_popescu: "this is the sort of item you only ever want because you fucked something else up"
mircea_popescu: widely seen in computing.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 369 @ 0.01000002 = 3.69 BTC [-] {2}
ascii_field: !s alien problem
assbot: 2 results for 'alien problem' :
mircea_popescu: and where's that pic nubbins put in, with the "you do not want an adaptor, you think you do becaus you fucked up the light arrangement"
ascii_field: the mains cords, aha
mircea_popescu: myeah.
ascii_field: (iirc britain had a periscopic rifle sight/trigger stick in ww1, for roughly same problem)
mircea_popescu: << this guy is such a ho.
assbot: Author and Screenwriter Harlan Ellison Rants about Youth and Publishing - YouTube ... ( )
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: ellison is interesting for another reason. he is the undisputed emperor of 'wrote a few good stories in the '50s, famous for nothing in particular since'; loudly rants demanding eternal copyright because 'creaaaatorz have riiiiiightz!!111!!'
mircea_popescu: remind me, what's his relation to scientologee ?
ascii_field: mark halperin is another
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: supposedly ellison witnessed the legendary bet b/w heinlein and hubbard. but afaik that's all..
mircea_popescu: kinda goes with the woman's complaints about the what was it, hugo award ?
mircea_popescu: i recall when i was a kid, some of the first books printed in shiny covers etc were various sf works, which is how i even ended up owning some (ender's game, dune, other americas, crap like that) - they looked good.
mircea_popescu: and they all sported various awards, nebula, hugo, whatever.
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: that was more of a 'how dare they make an upvote ring, that's -ours- to do'
mircea_popescu: i was suspicious at the time. had an argument with other teens, with me going "that's prolly just some shit they made up for the cover"
mircea_popescu: was a big scandal in the tiny cup. evnetually tho... lo! i am vindicated.
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: hugo is voted on, iirc, by folks who go to (or at least buy ticket to...) 'worldcon' - an sf event attended mainly by writers (in practice, the wannabees i spoke of earlier)
mircea_popescu: this doesn't qualify it for "some shit they made up for the cover" ?
ascii_field: it was made up long ago, when the american writers all knew one another
mircea_popescu: right. it's basically if they start putting on "as seen in" on shit long after we all left.
mircea_popescu: dude... it was a joke when we made it.
ascii_field: sorta like that
mircea_popescu: naggum's point re fields applies eminently.
assbot: Victor Davis Hanson: Modern American universities are failing on four counts - San Jose Mercury News ... ( )
mircea_popescu: sf in the 50s was a spare cycle endeavour of the people who at the time didn't have bbs yet.
chetty: my amazement on where that got published
mircea_popescu: !up ascii_field
mircea_popescu: chetty what's mercurynews ?
ascii_field: 'Colleges need to publicize the employment rates of recent graduates and the percentage of students who complete their degrees so that strapped parents can do cost-benefit analyses like they do with any other major cash investment.' << anyone recall the law school debacle ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 262594 @ 0.000272 = 71.4256 BTC [+] {6}
ascii_field: (a great many - published such figures; turned out, to no one's surprise, fabricated wholesale; then somehow entire brouhaha magicked away )
chetty: well its San Jose, the heart of soicalism country
mircea_popescu: ascii_field nobody goes to jail for THAT kinda fraud right ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46359 @ 0.00026574 = 12.3194 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: fraud that makes the consumer "consume" is a-ok
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27500 @ 0.00025544 = 7.0246 BTC [-]
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: not only this, but feeds the academic mandarin class
ascii_field: who get to not only avoid starvation but live like civilized people (naturally, referring to the winners in the tournament market, not the chinese grad students here)
ascii_field: regardless of whatever result metric
ascii_field: because they, approximately, hold 'title of nobility' in usa.
ascii_field: performance metrics, in usa, are for the worker bees.
mircea_popescu: << btw, re why is he famous etc.
assbot: Harlan Ellison & Robin Williams discuss LRH - YouTube ... ( )
ascii_field recalls the eternal 'the late cooper's daughter, in her december.. why was the famous? who could remember?'
mircea_popescu: heh. he never shat a plum.
ascii_field: (for those who missed, << megaclassic)
assbot: ... ( )
ascii_field: but no, ellison only shat a few basic prunes.
ascii_field: but was 'friends with them all' and ended up in the usa sf wot.
mircea_popescu: in other news, is Casey McKinnon really a man ?
ascii_field: wut
mircea_popescu: some canadian chick.
ascii_field: << that one ?
assbot: Casey McKinnon ... ( )
mircea_popescu: yea
ascii_field: sooner i am a dog.
mircea_popescu: ?
assbot: ... ( )
mircea_popescu: really fucking weird face.
ascii_field does not see what is odd here
mircea_popescu: anyway, back to ellison, guy apparently wrote a shitton. i suppose it's mostly that we don't give a shit about their pulpy universes.
ascii_field: he did
ascii_field: i happen to own a copy of most of it
mircea_popescu: which makes it seem like he did nothing.
mircea_popescu: o, really ?
ascii_field: the bulk - is quite unreadable
ascii_field: he was, imho, of a particular school of writing where threw shit at a wall hoping that some would stick
ascii_field: possibly with the help of lsd etc
ascii_field: some - did stick
ascii_field: but he persisted in letting his snr fall, fall...
mircea_popescu: i think they all did that, in the olden penny a word days
ascii_field: some with more lsd, some with less
mircea_popescu: "readers" meant "people more than willing to root through the shit, because literacy is new and printing only last year became affordable"
mircea_popescu: his nostalgia is misplaced. the first time they came up with synthetic fibers people wore them out of pride. "look at me, i am one of those withthe industry"
mircea_popescu: as they cheapened and broadened they took their proper place. not because "there aren't real wearers anymore"
mircea_popescu: but because they always sucked.
mircea_popescu: pulp was never literature. it seemed like it, because of the nonsenser that was early 19th century new york.
ascii_field: at any rate, you will find that folks obsessed with 'eternal copyright' etc. are invariably 'smallinteger-hit wonders'
mircea_popescu: obviosuly.
ascii_field: 'my fucking lottery ticket should be worth $infinity'
mircea_popescu: nah, not what's going on there imo.
mircea_popescu: more like "i have so little, please don't make it less."
mircea_popescu: it's something like this :
assbot: ... ( )
ascii_field: another 'why is he famous?!' fella who goes on, and on, and on... about 'eternal copyright now!111!1' is jaron lanier
mircea_popescu: this one i never heard of.
ascii_field: !s lanier
assbot: 10 results for 'lanier' :
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2015 17:38:08; mircea_popescu: "Jaron Lanier is one of the world’s great polymaths. He’s a computer scientist, composer, visual artist, and the author of a new book, Who Owns the Future?, published last month "
mircea_popescu: lolok.
ascii_field: i mentioned him at least once as specifically an example of a particularly vile species sometimes called 'digerati'
mats: i had the worst day
mats: working for idiots is awful
mircea_popescu: << check it out, back when they had to hold up the mics, still raving about 1984 and orwellian society.
assbot: 1984 Orwells Warning With Harlan Ellison - YouTube ... ( )
mircea_popescu: mats o ya ? what happened ?
mats: my manager dicked around on a server and threw me under the bus when he fucked up
mircea_popescu: heh.
mircea_popescu: so walk, what.
ascii_field: not walk. fly, on atomic dirigible
mircea_popescu: he doesn't sound old enough to need a job, that doesn't sound like a job good enough to want, etc.
mats: gotta eat.
ascii_field does not, afaik, know anyone in local meatspace who 'doesn't need a job'
ascii_field: it isn't strictly an age thing, beyond a certain point
mircea_popescu: mats so walk next time.
mircea_popescu: !up ascii_field
mircea_popescu: doesn't sound like you'll face a dearth of opportunities.
mats: after i clean this up imma start looking, but, i'm still 'entry level' as far as years-employed goes
mircea_popescu: fuck that. why would you ever take a standard that disadvantages you ?
mircea_popescu: when you're young, you only talk in performance terms.
mircea_popescu: when you're old it's time for "years employed" metrics.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 75250 @ 0.00024999 = 18.8117 BTC [-] {3}
mircea_popescu: you never, ever, no matter what happens, accept a metric that puts you behind.
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: now you know why i'm in my mousetrap.
mircea_popescu: that's to be done with your teachers, not with the fucking employers.
mircea_popescu: ascii_field no ?
ascii_field: can't speak for mats, but basic idea is that once you leave your meatwot, you are a fungible machine. this is a situation that, as mats put it, 'resets you to entry level' - and overwhelmingly favours the very young
mats: as you know, a proper master is rare...
mircea_popescu: ascii_field nominally. not factually.
ascii_field: there is not so much employment in the world for the 'naggum' variety of engineer. and one hundred percent of it is built on meat wots, years-long personal relationships and 'ins'.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 597 @ 0.00259003 = 1.5462 BTC [-] {8}
ascii_field: step outside of this, and you are fighting with the monkeys for monkey food.
ascii_field: ('www dev' etc.)
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 1000 @ 0.002575 = 2.575 BTC [-] {2}
ascii_field: one very important fact is that a 'naggum' - if he is the genuine article - is a -destroyer- of jobs for his own kind, rather than creator thereof
ascii_field: one could argue that this is not true, and that 'there is still as much work for systems engineers today as in '70 - because nothing really works' - but 'as much work' does not mean 'as much employment'
mircea_popescu: i really don't agree with any of these.
ascii_field: hm?
ben_vulpes: "more work" << obligatory:
assbot: ... ( )
mircea_popescu: ascii_field you propose that if you were taken to a jungle, you would have trouble exterminating monkeys ?
mircea_popescu: on what is this you-them difference predicated then ?
mircea_popescu: aesthetic considerations ? skin tone ?
ascii_field: why stop at monkeys
mircea_popescu: your term.
ascii_field: one man in the field would likely fall to sufficient cockroaches
mircea_popescu: uh...
ascii_field: what then is the difference between he and they
mircea_popescu: wait, no man was ever killed by cockroaches. what are you on about ?
ascii_field: probably would make more sense with ants.
ascii_field: plenty killed by ants.
ascii_field: granted, usually 'played with handicap'
ascii_field: but the crashed pilot in the jungle likewise plays with handicap vs beasts which grew up there.
mircea_popescu: you know, the shapeshifting amoebic consistency of your position suggests to me that you'd rather it weren't discussed after all. which is it ?
ascii_field: here i don't have a position as such, only observations
mircea_popescu: mkay.
ascii_field: these observations are based 'in my light cone' naturally.
ascii_field: speaking of exterminating monkeys, recall the thread with the strength of pan troglodytis ?
mircea_popescu: you'd obviously avoid pissing them off and snipe them
ascii_field: while the rifle has rounds - yes.
mircea_popescu: i didn't say rifle.
mircea_popescu: firesharpened sticks, what.
ascii_field: the point, which i evidently failed to get across, is that the man vs chimp contest requires the man to at least get a chance to sharpen a stick, in order to use his advantage over the beast
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48845 @ 0.00024411 = 11.9236 BTC [-] {2}
ascii_field: put the two together bare-handed - chimp will tear off limbs and rape the corpse
ascii_field: does not matter how clever was the man
mircea_popescu: the other point, which for some reason you don't seem inclined to appreciate, is that if the difference between man and beast doesn't exist, then the nominal difference is spurious.
mircea_popescu: so just say "a monkey among monkeys"
ascii_field: if only
ascii_field: man makes a terrible chimp
ascii_field: this is why the zoologist gets eaten every time
ascii_field: if he visits enough
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 86327 @ 0.0002417 = 20.8652 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: i dunno.
mircea_popescu: i never met an eaten antrhopologist.
mircea_popescu: (zoologists usually stick to amoebae)
ascii_field: iirc there is a hypothesis that it is why they attack - he fails to respond to some important chimp gesture of dom/sub protocol handshake
ascii_field: << just one randomly selected example
assbot: Jane Goodall Institute Chimpanzee Eden Attack Leaves American With 'Multiple And Severe Bite Wounds' ... ( )
mircea_popescu: this was in a cage ?
ascii_field: nope
ascii_field: or, hm
ascii_field: 'when two chimpanzees grabbed his feet and pulled him under a fence into their enclosure...'
mircea_popescu: "Andrew F. Oberle was giving a lecture to a group of tourists at the Chimp Eden sanctuary on Thursday when two chimpanzees grabbed his feet and pulled him under a fence into their enclosure, said Jeffrey Wicks of the Netcare911 emergency services company."
mircea_popescu: dude come on.
ascii_field: what is surprising? the thing has roughly 5x the strength of a man, per gram of muscle.
mircea_popescu: what is surprising is that you're passing off chimps in a zoo for chimps in the wild,
ascii_field: tears man like paper. like hydraulic pistons of bulldozer.
mircea_popescu: !up ascii_field
mircea_popescu: and generally that this conversation keeps sliding towards less and less related stuff.
ascii_field: (i very clearly recall incident of specialist who dealt with chimps in the wild, getting 'chimped' after many uneventful years. but lost the link.)
ascii_field: to get back to original point, that i attempted to make, - division of labour exists, and not everyone is a universal and reshapeable everything.
BingoBoingo recalls suprise at mircea_popescu's default chimp being the blowjob species
mircea_popescu: why ?
mircea_popescu: ascii_field well, anything may happen, sure.
mircea_popescu: similarly, shopper got shot in muggery after many years of safe shopping.
ascii_field: this is more of a 'that day was suddenly torn limb from limb by the other shoppers' thing
ascii_field: iirc
mircea_popescu: ascii_field the difference between smart and stupid is that smart can be stupid, but stupid can't be smart. that's it.
mircea_popescu: if this condition is not satisfied, you're looking at mere kinds of stupid.
ascii_field: not sure if this will make sense, but living as a stupid -social- organism takes a lifetime of practice.
ascii_field: consider organic vs congenital brain damage
mircea_popescu: your liking it is not in discussion.
ascii_field: not liking per se, but sustainably (without external feeding) functioning.
mircea_popescu: so you're telling me you couldn't flunk tests. because it's "in your nature" to pass them.
mircea_popescu: can you see how this would essentially be socialist ideology ?
mircea_popescu: "no need to pay creators for creating - it's what they do"
ascii_field: could quite easily flunk tests. could not convincingly worm into the company of folks who grew up doing so.
mircea_popescu: why not ?
ascii_field: didn't grow up drinking their swill, speaking their hundred-word language, watching their sporting crud, etc.
mircea_popescu: so ?
mircea_popescu: not like it's hard.
ascii_field: mircea_popescu could convince an eskimo that he is an eskimo ?
ascii_field: if not, why not ?
mircea_popescu: surely.
mircea_popescu: and if i couldn't that failure'd score pretty high up on the priority board.
ascii_field takes off hat, does not know anyone else who would dare to attempt it.
mircea_popescu: im a tall lanky white eskimo from romania. problem ?
ascii_field: l0l
ascii_field: 'stop sending the blacks' (TM)
ascii_field recalls how richard sorge, perhaps greatest spy who ever lived, still stuck to impersonating a german - rather than japanese - official, while in jp
mircea_popescu: nevertheless.
mircea_popescu: speaking of spies, i was kinda surpriosed to see news item linked yesterday casually point out the deep reason for why exactly us gaver up on actual humint to focus on mostl pointless sigint
mircea_popescu: "we can't afford to train and then to lose the agents what with these new techniques"
mircea_popescu: i thought that wasn't mentionable.
ascii_field: mentionable, like everything else, so long as the context is sufficiently obfuscated (or can be presumed to be unknown to the chumps)
mircea_popescu: aha.
ascii_field: just like the other tidbit from yesterday, re: the arctic exercises.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47650 @ 0.00025471 = 12.1369 BTC [+]
ascii_field: and before we say 'the americans and their wasted effort on pointless sigint' - let's recall how they set up a whole planet as chumpers who can't access a sane computing system at any price...
ascii_field: (pedants will answer 'desinfo ain't sigint' but in usa they are presided over by the same people)
mircea_popescu: the planet needed no help with that.
mircea_popescu: let's not credit passing swallows for rain shall we.
mircea_popescu: next you're going to tell me growing autism is the intentional effect of tradecraft.
ascii_field: the sparrow may not be to blame for the spring, but the matter of the birdshit on statue - another.
mircea_popescu: looky here : nothing works unless individuals sovereign over them.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30000 @ 0.00025471 = 7.6413 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: the car is functional today to the degree that it is functional for this reason.
mircea_popescu: ic had no such luck. you could say shockley made a bad king.
mircea_popescu: rocketry exists because of that nazi us citizen, not because of any government, or other group of people. and on and on.
ascii_field: aha.
mircea_popescu: there's always going to be fields with and fields without the luck.
mircea_popescu: this - spring.
mircea_popescu: (and before anyone wants to argue re ford : the man pissed on a field of patents, ignored the law and basically ordered anyone messing with his stuff murdered.)
ascii_field: ^ ditto edison
mircea_popescu: for that matter - electricity had a bad king, and it still sucks to this day, as discussed yest
ascii_field: who in fact invented modern patent trollage
mircea_popescu: granted, not as bad as shockley.
mircea_popescu: people, if left to do what threy will, will just make piles of shit. it's what people do.
ascii_field: except for the ones who won't
ascii_field: (paulgraham, pre-braindamage, called the difference 'good taste' but not sure if this is descriptive)
mircea_popescu: "people" in the collective.
ascii_field: then trivially yes.
Adlai: pg: "hackers, like painters, both make things" rando troll: "so do chickens"
mircea_popescu: it may be good taste, but it more likely is a firm decision to burn anything and everything until it either behaves or goes away.
ascii_field: ^ that -is- good taste
mircea_popescu: well ok then.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26900 @ 0.00025471 = 6.8517 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: anyway : the people who never burn anyone elementarily fail at this.
mircea_popescu: kinda how it only takes a moment;s survey to reealise a field/group/whatever will never amount to anything worth the mention.
mircea_popescu: ascii_field hey, we discussed last year this guy that was really butthurt about some professor stealing his invention ? up in canada ? something to do with mathematica maybe ?
mircea_popescu: heh.
mircea_popescu: !up ascii_field
ascii_field:!topic/sci.math/t7Szo6EFZvc << this ?
assbot: Google Discussiegroepen ... ( )
ascii_field: wolfram is a u.s.-based fella though
ascii_field: !s wolfram
assbot: 43 results for 'wolfram' :
mircea_popescu: aha
ascii_field: he later backed down, paper was printed, there were no lawsuits, iirc.
mircea_popescu: that, but im not linking google groups.
ascii_field: but much anger to this day.
assbot: Stephen Wolfram, A New Kind of Science ... ( )
ascii_field: ^ canonical
ascii_field: particularly,
ascii_field: 'The real problem with this result, however, is that it is not Wolfram's. He didn't invent cyclic tag systems, and he didn't come up with the incredibly intricate construction needed to implement them in Rule 110. This was done rather by one Matthew Cook, while working in Wolfram's employ under a contract with some truly remarkable provisions about intellectual property. In short, Wolfram got to control not only when and
ascii_field: how the result was made public, but to claim it for himself. In fact, his position was that the existence of the result was a trade secret. ...'
ascii_field: 'Wolfram, for his part, responded by suing or threatening to sue Cook (now a penniless graduate student in neuroscience), the conference organizers, the publishers of the proceedings, etc. '
mircea_popescu: heh
ascii_field: wolfram is sui generis. owns a tame publisher, for instance
ascii_field: that prints his 'great insights' and those of his user base
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6241 @ 0.00025471 = 1.5896 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: that really is not hard to do.
mircea_popescu: pod and so on
ascii_field: to my great shame, i pumped thousands and thousands of usd into wolfram's pockets.
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: it isn't an on-demand print, either
ascii_field: 'top shelf' lithography and typography
ascii_field: the man is a crank who grew up as 'next big physics mind' who ended up coming to nothing. but turned out that he was good at harnessing other folks to pull his imperial cart.
mircea_popescu: also not THAT expensive these days
ascii_field: so he ended up as a mad king of a small kingdom of sorts
mircea_popescu: lots of these, it turns out.
ascii_field: 'mathematica' has competitors in the exactly same sense that mpex does.
ascii_field: to this day.
mircea_popescu: apparently everyone who's not proud to work for corporate america a la buffett is busy trying to carve a small kingdom of flies type of arrangement
mircea_popescu: from the idiots trying to get "real estate developments" on arid hills in south america
ascii_field: buffett has kingdom. well, had. it was conquered meanwhile
ascii_field: as i understand
mircea_popescu: to derps making "submarines" because hey, can't just admit bitcoin has it and humbly join.
ascii_field has not yet read all of the man's writings
ascii_field: anyway, i happen to know more than a reasonable man ought to, about wolframism
ascii_field: what he did was, essentially, steal a usg mega-product - macsyma, the first really universal computer algebra system, thousands of man-years of
ascii_field: a certain lisp
ascii_field: and hired some folks to cough up a gui for it
ascii_field: and marketed
ascii_field: he also had it delisped
ascii_field: so that 'serial number is filed off', so to speak
ascii_field: and would not be bound by the (iirc murky) legal status of the stolen original
ascii_field: (gpl did not yet exist, and ianal, but the story is complicated - it -was- taxpayer-funded research)
ascii_field: << some detail of what
assbot: Why Wolfram (Mathematica) did not use Lisp | The (λ) Lambda meme - all things Lisp ... ( )
ascii_field: << l0l! apparently he's still sc4mz0r1ng folks
assbot: Subscription Center | ... ( )
ascii_field: ... or being sc4mz0r3d himself
ascii_field wasn't there, didn't see
ascii_field: << won.
assbot: Subscription Center | ... ( )
ascii_field: that was quick.
ascii_field: 'My real concern, of course, was not that he was using optimized data structures so much as that he seemed on target to reintroduce numerical error back into a world that we had worked hard to make 'exact' (Macsyma used bignums from Lisp) or at least 'arbitrarily exact' (Macsyma had a derived type called 'bigfloat' that was internally a pair bignums, acting more or less as a ratio but with lots of other hidden bits to
ascii_field: assure that any decimalization had enough bits to be precise to a given number of digits). Stephen's aim seemed to be to sacrifice correctness for speed. He seemed clear on that the error was not a problem for him...'
ascii_field: ^ he 'wriggleys gummed' the thing, too.
ascii_field: (modern mathematica is, grudgingly, bignummy.)
Pierre_Rochard: !up ascii_field
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25568 @ 0.00027439 = 7.0156 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30000 @ 0.00026632 = 7.9896 BTC [-]
mats: Schwab FFS "password must contain at least one letter and no symbols Have one or more numbers between first and last character Password must be between 6 and 8 characters in length"
mats: really? i could attack that on a laptop from 2005.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 204264 @ 0.00025593 = 52.2773 BTC [-] {5}
mats: scratch that... 1995.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes << dude is that yours ?
assbot: Logged on 02-04-2014 16:43:00; benkay: bounce: the only solution is to be the competent management you wish to see in the world :)
ben_vulpes: yeah why?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17685 @ 0.00025044 = 4.429 BTC [-]
mike_c: yeah? you claiming to be gandhi now :)
mircea_popescu: re earlier discussion with funks and alf.
assbot: On owning things on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( )
mircea_popescu: mike_c ben_vulpes i seriously thought i had come up with it, then searched for it, found vulpes
mircea_popescu: was o.O check me out!
mircea_popescu: no wonder the ancients didn't have "intellectual property". too cultivated to imagine it's workable.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 65150 @ 0.00025031 = 16.3077 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17147 @ 0.00024736 = 4.2415 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48161 @ 0.00024736 = 11.9131 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 86900 @ 0.0002686 = 23.3413 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17685 @ 0.00026031 = 4.6036 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 161 @ 0.01 = 1.61 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43200 @ 0.00025089 = 10.8384 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: Obama Initiative Promotes Linkrot | ... ( )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu et al:
BingoBoingo: Beautiful
asciilifeform: in other news, #glibc is one of the quietest channels one could imagine short of an entirely dead one.
asciilifeform: in past 24 hrs, only some spew from a diffbot, and a query from a n00b re: 'ghost' vuln.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 77800 @ 0.00025562 = 19.8872 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52800 @ 0.00024942 = 13.1694 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: 'archive' link in newest qntra post appears to be dead.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Fixed, was missing the f in pdf
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 151922 @ 0.00027672 = 42.0399 BTC [+] {4}
mats: TIL AMD now contracts out their fabs
asciilifeform: mats: -all- of'em ?
mats: i believe so.
assbot: AMD Goes Fabless - March 8, 2012 - ... ( )
asciilifeform: takehome message appears to be 'buy your last x86 cpu while you can.'
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64335 @ 0.0002472 = 15.9036 BTC [-] {2}
BingoBoingo: I'm looking for Investment advice. Any thoughts on Mayweather vs. Pacquiao?
decimation: asciilifeform: have you ever tried 'picolisp'?
asciilifeform: decimation: aha
asciilifeform: decimation: i found that it is only any good as a 'textbook example'
asciilifeform: 'throwback' lisp similar to elisp
asciilifeform: i.e. having dynamics scope
asciilifeform: which brings the infamous 'funarg problem' back from the dead
decimation: the guy claims to have built a small hardware processor that 'runs' picolisp
asciilifeform: *dynamic
asciilifeform: decimation: this is not hard
decimation: no, it sounds like a very simple mechanism
asciilifeform: see also 'scheme-79'
asciilifeform: - or my article on the subject,
assbot: DSpace@MIT: The SCHEME-79 Chip ... ( )
assbot: Loper OS » Shards of Lost Technology, and the Need for High-Level Architectures. ... ( )
decimation: ah so the 'funarg problem' appears when you only use a stack
asciilifeform: but in general 'simple lisps' are not hard to implement
asciilifeform: there are approximately as many of them as there are folks with comp sci. degrees.
asciilifeform: what is difficult is to implement one that is worth -using-
asciilifeform: esp. since the 'jewel of simplicity' aspect tends to dissipate very, very quickly in unskilled hands trying to implement a modicum of actual optimization
decimation: yeah for example I have been trying to 'optimize' a std::vector<std::complex<float >> turd
decimation: in C++
asciilifeform: ew
decimation: C++ does 'just work' but if you want to use the standard functions in any way other than designed it becomes a massive hairball
decimation: because you are immediately faced with re-writing the whole thing from scratch
decimation: kinda like bitcoin & boost libraries
asciilifeform: even the standard aspects have questionable solidity of specification.
asciilifeform: (not even speaking of cross-platform portability, but the fact of any two compilers on same platform eating up the same input and producing comparable, valid output)
decimation: from what I gather from naggum, stroustrup basically spent most of his time marketing C++
decimation: and his marketing consisted of 'yeah we can include your crazy shit in the language'
asciilifeform: like PL/I before.
asciilifeform: but there can be no great charlatan without the great - in its own way - gaggle of imbecilic chumps to go with him.
decimation: it seems that any sane implementer carefully sticks to a subset of the language - or a particular compiler/library
asciilifeform: aha.
asciilifeform: just as no one actually 'programs in c.'
decimation: right
asciilifeform: (it is quite impossible to do, outside of a classroom)
asciilifeform: this is -one- of the reasons why ada (and to a slightly-lesser extent - common lisp) is interesting
asciilifeform: one can -actually program in the specified language-
asciilifeform: and no deviation from the spec is tolerated.
decimation: well, it appears to come with a very well specified standard library
decimation: actually I kinda wonder why ada hasn't gotten more traction, given that it is far more 'portable' than C is
asciilifeform: because it declares war on microshit and unix, 'a pox on both their houses'
BingoBoingo debates whether to seed Mayweather/Pacquiao on BitBet
asciilifeform has never heard of either until now
decimation: asciilifeform: that's a good point. in many ways, controlling the 'standard library' on a platform is way more important than the kernel
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i can't help but wonder - who is playing the sport bets other than BingoBoingo ? somebody must be...
decimation: after all, when Linus promises not to 'break userland', he's promising to be a good slave
BingoBoingo: * asciilifeform has never heard of either until now << Both fighters 5 years past their prime. One Black, one Island folk. Both old enough hard to see this happening without a loss of life.
asciilifeform: decimation: if he 'broke' it, he will simply be left holding the short end of a fork
asciilifeform: trademark or not.
asciilifeform: orhpanned chain, if you will.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I'm not comtemplating betting, but marketmaking insurance
assbot: Fax Toy - Random Stuff You Fax To Us ... ( )
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Seems the predominant name for this match is "Debate 5 years too late"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58900 @ 0.00026885 = 15.8353 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: thestringpuller: You got any thoughts on the fight?
BingoBoingo: !up stunna
BingoBoingo: stunna: You ever do any prop betting?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 72100 @ 0.00024678 = 17.7928 BTC [-] {2}
stunna: BingoBoingo: With friends for fun sure but nothing too serious
stunna: BingoBoingo: I agreed to some guy's terms a year ago for the warren buffet bet thing and he pulled out, I got lucky he got cold feet
stunna: BingoBoingo: Would have been out quite a few coins
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nice.
BingoBoingo: stunna: Ah. I'm debating whether to throw down to 2BTC necessary to open up the Mayweather Pacquiao thing on BitBet, leaning towards dumping my stake on the Azn even though Vegas is against him.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: when weighing the lot, i discovered, to a bit of surprise, that there is ~50g of variance between the individual units.
mircea_popescu: prolly power units
asciilifeform: the infamous tea kettles inevitably came to mind
stunna: BingoBoingo: It's really all the same EV + fees, would make the fight more exciting to watch though if you put money down
asciilifeform: but yes, probably a fairly boring chinese variation in this or that.
stunna: BingoBoingo: tickets to get into that fight are ridiculously expensive, $5-6,000 for the worst possible seat all the way in the back
BingoBoingo: stunna: Well, Bitbet would be lower fee than a sportsbook (1%), just wondering if other money would come in to correct the odds.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo marywether still boxes ?!
stunna: BingoBoingo: I know extremely little about sports betting, but there's probably enough people betting on there to keep the odds at whatever the official payouts are
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Yeah. Him and Pacquiao have just been doing old people set up fights these past few years, because boxing is uncompetitive as hell
mircea_popescu: it cant be competitive.
mircea_popescu: that worked with a LE of 35.
BingoBoingo going to see how baseball/hockey do tonight and maybe submit the funded bet
mircea_popescu: what odds do you see on it ?
assbot: Cause for concern? Mayweather and Pacquiao camps trade barbs over tickets, rooms, contract - Yahoo Sports ... ( )
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I'm seeing decimal odds pay 2.69 x stake for betting on Pacquiao
mircea_popescu: i thought you wanted the other one ?
BingoBoingo: But the fight isn't until May 2nd (3rd in GMT land)
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: << CoinBase's outgoing mailserver, localbitcoins members list
assbot: Coinbase Outgoing Email Hacked | ... ( )
mircea_popescu: is it ?
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: It's what it appears to be.
mircea_popescu: anyway, bitbet sports are iffy - the one time i put money on an obscure event i recall it being covered reasonably, like 9 to 1 or somesuch
mircea_popescu: but you never know
BingoBoingo: I'm going to think about it. There's still time
BingoBoingo: World cup managed to get bets, but seemed to have a broader appeal
BingoBoingo: Next Saturday seems to be the time to pull the trigger on the bet
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13500 @ 0.00025278 = 3.4125 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56300 @ 0.00024498 = 13.7924 BTC [-] {2}
BingoBoingo will probably make the decision Saturday on whether or not to stake the Bitcoin of 688 people on The last great boxing match ever.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu:
assbot: On owning things on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( )
mats: 688?
mircea_popescu: ;;google 688 attack sub ms-dos
gribble: 688 Attack Sub | Old MS-DOS Games | Download for Free or play in ...: <>; 688 Attack Sub (DOS) - Game Play - YouTube: <>; 688 Attack Sub - Sega Retro: <>
mircea_popescu: shit i loved that game.
mats: oic
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32587 @ 0.0002517 = 8.2021 BTC [+]
mats: exercise for the bored: spot the bug
assbot: xchat/dcc.c at master · linuxmint/xchat · GitHub ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37517 @ 0.0002517 = 9.443 BTC [+]
mats: relevant:
assbot: DEFCON 17: More Tricks For Defeating SSL - YouTube ... ( )
mats: "just looking at the shape of this code, you know there's got to be a bug in here somewhere"
BingoBoingo: mats: DCC is perfect occasion for fixing code with delete key
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23900 @ 0.00025278 = 6.0414 BTC [+]
mats: i remember the days when you could pwn entire channels with dcc bugs
decimation: re: TeX discussion < at least TeX is vastly superior to microsoft word, especially when it comes to collaboration on revision
mats: BitchX used to go down with %s%s%s%s
BingoBoingo made his weirdix weirdcoind with the delete key and .h substitutions
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 106000 @ 0.00024403 = 25.8672 BTC [-] {4}
[]bot: Bet placed: 3.1 BTC for No on "Silver at or over $22/oz before October" Odds: 20(Y):80(N) by coin, 22(Y):78(N) by weight. Total bet: 9.955139 BTC. Current weight: 90,058.
[]bot: Bet placed: 2 BTC for No on "Obama Approval Rating over 50% before July" Odds: 14(Y):86(N) by coin, 20(Y):80(N) by weight. Total bet: 3.13121127 BTC. Current weight: 42,499.
[]bot: Bet placed: 5 BTC for No on "Light Sweet Crude Oil (WTI) to drop under $35 before June " Odds: 6(Y):94(N) by coin, 7(Y):93(N) by weight. Total bet: 24.21280975 BTC. Current weight: 62,947.
[]bot: Bet placed: 10 BTC for No on "Bitcoin to drop under $150 before July" Odds: 9(Y):91(N) by coin, 9(Y):91(N) by weight. Total bet: 25.79172615 BTC. Current weight: 85,740.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29200 @ 0.0002407 = 7.0284 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19150 @ 0.00023945 = 4.5855 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60500 @ 0.00025278 = 15.2932 BTC [+]

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