Hide Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2014-03-16 | 2014-03-18 → ↓
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [RENT] 50 @ 0.00511804 = 0.2559 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4496 @ 0.00088989 = 4.0009 BTC [-] {2}
ozbot: Bitcoin Barron Challenges Berkshire - Slashdot
BingoBoingo: Let's get news of the berkshire bet on /.
Diablo-D3: people read /.?
Diablo-D3: just put it on hn
BingoBoingo: OF course people read /. WTF is HN?
artifexd: "All email received unencrypted is automatically deleted unread." <- Should there be a comma between "deleted" and "unread"?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 9 @ 0.05259833 = 0.4734 BTC [+] {2}
Duffer1: i would, dunno if it's grammatically necessary though
Mats_cd03: barron?
Mats_cd03: what are you, illiterate
BingoBoingo: Mats_cd03: It's the fancy spelling
BingoBoingo: Twice the R's twice the poweRR
Mats_cd03: google doesnt think so
BingoBoingo: Google sucks
BingoBoingo: Also, slipping typos past /. editors is a thrill
Mats_cd03: fuck you
Mats_cd03: cancer
joecool: <Diablo-D3> people read /.? < the english language is tricky on this point, it is true that people have read /. however I do not think people still read /.
joecool: also wtf is HN
Diablo-D3: joecool: read as still read
Diablo-D3: news.ycombinator.com
joecool: o hacker news
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52805 @ 0.00089261 = 47.1343 BTC [+] {4}
dub: !ticker mp s.mpoe
assbot: [MPEX:S.MPOE] 1D: 0.00079506 / 0.00083849 / 0.0008949 (798560 shares, 669.59 BTC), 7D: 0.00079084 / 0.00083345 / 0.0008949 (8266767 shares, 6,889.96 BTC), 30D: 0.000745 / 0.00085513 / 0.0008982 (30247797 shares, 25,866.00 BTC)
dub: wat
BingoBoingo: Roller coaster day
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 3 @ 0.06899866 = 0.207 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 63 @ 0.006 = 0.378 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 5 @ 0.06899865 = 0.345 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 80 @ 0.005965 = 0.4772 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5300 @ 0.00089405 = 4.7385 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 39 @ 0.00344999 = 0.1345 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38200 @ 0.00089443 = 34.1672 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18150 @ 0.00089119 = 16.1751 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17359 @ 0.00089485 = 15.5337 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10896 @ 0.000895 = 9.7519 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 2 @ 0.0680001 = 0.136 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52484 @ 0.00088812 = 46.6121 BTC [-] {6}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29819 @ 0.00088652 = 26.4351 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13300 @ 0.00089246 = 11.8697 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13179 @ 0.00089382 = 11.7797 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13650 @ 0.00089225 = 12.1792 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8107 @ 0.00089012 = 7.2162 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18294 @ 0.00089004 = 16.2824 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 136 @ 0.00348023 = 0.4733 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 50 @ 0.00349999 = 0.175 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5841 @ 0.00089507 = 5.2281 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17360 @ 0.0008957 = 15.5494 BTC [+]
ozbot: 4.250 billion | Next Diff in 1319 blocks | Estimated Change: 12.0150% in 8d 1h 25m 20s
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 624.17, vol: 5229.17631623 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 619.0, vol: 3520.16353 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 622.9, vol: 3034.80102891 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 644.03, vol: 27.03976344 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 634.7904, vol: 7.60273383 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 641.971901103, vol: 37.82252322 | Volume-weighted last average: 622.418876926
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06899943 = 0.138 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06899942 = 0.138 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13600 @ 0.00088761 = 12.0715 BTC [-] {3}
bounce: oh, nice to wake up to a spurious paste. another reason to hate trackpads.
mircea_popescu: when did miscreanity become stupid anyway ?
bounce: because if it wasn't, it gets bailouts
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4900 @ 0.00088908 = 4.3565 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: wait what ?
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo hacker news
mircea_popescu: joecool hacker news
mircea_popescu: o look, mpoe is trading 88 now ? i guess short sellers got bored or what
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo "Tychoon" ?!
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 9 @ 0.11950724 = 1.0756 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 3 @ 0.05259698 = 0.1578 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 3 @ 0.05259698 = 0.1578 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 2 @ 0.05259698 = 0.1052 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11700 @ 0.00088908 = 10.4022 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: Tychoon, Barron... Things were bound to go wrong when I tried to submit to Slashot completely sober/
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.615 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 7 @ 0.06909855 = 0.4837 BTC [+] {7}
BingoBoingo: Still the name of the game is challenging the editors to catch these things
mircea_popescu: why not work with them
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3200 @ 0.0008882 = 2.8422 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: That is an interesting question.
isthisreallyreal: Hi guys! :)
isthisreallyreal: Anyone care to explain what's going on here ? :p Im totally new to this. Haha
Curious_George: hey there
kakobrekla: this box is internet relay chat aka irc
kakobrekla: you type stuff in and other people can see
kakobrekla: then they can reply back if they wish to do so
isthisreallyreal: haha, not that basic! I'm just wondering exactly what you're talking about here:)
kakobrekla: see the topic, follow the links
isthisreallyreal: A user from bitcointalk refered me here to gain some more experince about bitcoin in generel.
kakobrekla: well start reading then
mircea_popescu: isthisreallyreal just read the logs.
kakobrekla: or you can chop them up and make a nice wooden table
isthisreallyreal: And also, do you guys know any good marketplace where i can buy and sell with bitcoin?
kakobrekla: buy and sell what?
isthisreallyreal: stuff, like phones or anything acutally..
isthisreallyreal: I can only find places to BUY bitcoins, not buy WITH them..
kakobrekla: overstock for example
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57337 @ 0.00089642 = 51.398 BTC [+] {5}
isthisreallyreal: overstock.com? I can only see that you can buy with regular currencys on that site!
kakobrekla: yes the implementation is poor
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 3 @ 0.60646667 = 1.8194 BTC [-] {2}
kakobrekla: but theres a "buy now with bitcoin" button on the bottom of product page
isthisreallyreal: Sorry to bother..! but where do i find the "log" ?:)
kakobrekla: the. links. in. the. topic.
kakobrekla: ;;topic
isthisreallyreal: thanks alot !!
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 67 @ 0.00595003 = 0.3987 BTC [-] {3}
isthisreallyreal: Do you guys use "bitcoins" regularly? :p Or what you find interesting about it?
isthisreallyreal: and btw, have you heard of thecoinbay?
kakobrekla: whats that
mircea_popescu: isthisreallyreal you need to stfu and read now, before you go on everyone's ignore.
kakobrekla: ebay with coins id guess
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17500 @ 0.00089713 = 15.6998 BTC [+]
hdbuck: im new too, delighted to finally make it to the high sphere, have read the logs about what happened on the 4th of feb.. still trying to figure it all out. cheers. :)
thestringpuller: !ticker m s.mpoe
assbot: [MPEX:S.MPOE] 1D: 0.00079506 / 0.00087709 / 0.00089713 (838186 shares, 735.17 BTC), 7D: 0.00079084 / 0.00083456 / 0.00089713 (8310811 shares, 6,935.92 BTC), 30D: 0.000745 / 0.00085545 / 0.0008982 (30408720 shares, 26,013.21 BTC)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13800 @ 0.0008974 = 12.3841 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 2 @ 0.05259507 = 0.1052 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 863 @ 0.00089705 = 0.7742 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 3 @ 0.06999999 = 0.21 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 3 @ 0.11950724 = 0.3585 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 2 @ 0.06999999 = 0.14 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 5 @ 0.05087319 = 0.2544 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.606 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 5 @ 0.06999999 = 0.35 BTC [+] {4}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 4 @ 0.11950724 = 0.478 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.11950724 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7951 @ 0.00089528 = 7.1184 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 27 @ 0.11950724 = 3.2267 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9395 @ 0.00088963 = 8.3581 BTC [-] {2}
cazalla: patting a rabbit with an open palm (as in the video) blocks it's vision which can make it become defensive
cazalla: i breed NZ whites for meat, some of them would do the exact same thing or even bite if i harassed them as in that video
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5350 @ 0.0008895 = 4.7588 BTC [-]
ozbot: Turkish PM to hold consultations with Azerbaijan on Crimea - Trend.Az | Mobile version
Mats_cd03: luls nato
mircea_popescu: this guy said it best :
ozbot: Twitter / JamesKerLindsay: Turkey occupying Cyprus discusses ...
Mats_cd03: dinosaurs behaving like the world still belongs to them
chetty: news flash: pot calls kettle black
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 77 @ 0.00331241 = 0.2551 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: wao-ender large boeings can't fly that way.
mircea_popescu: in fact, it's unsafe for them to be even within one kilometer of each other.
wao-ender: yeah, comply with safety rules while hijacking plane.
wao-ender: I think for upthrust is one km still safe
mircea_popescu: the problem is mostly the turbulence
mircea_popescu: if you watch racing, it's like the slickstream
Apocalyptic: mircea_popescu, he could stay at a reasonable safe distance while still being close enough to show as 1 spot on the radars imo
mircea_popescu: in racing however the road is there to keep the cars up, and turbulence only causes a problem at high speeds, because the cars are designed so that the air pushes them on the ground.
mircea_popescu: there are occasionally accidents where a car follows a leader too close and ends up losing contact with the ground because of the disrupton in airflow
mircea_popescu: Apocalyptic well, you ever watched a radar ?
wao-ender: also, I'm reading, there was 50 seats blocked for some special cargo on the plane?
Apocalyptic: not a military one though
mircea_popescu: so how do you figure two 80 meter long objects a mile apart could appear the same one object
mircea_popescu: one mile long ?
mircea_popescu: if they actally thought that they'd have reported the aliens invading o.O
Apocalyptic: anyway satellite pictures should determine that
mircea_popescu: anyway, getting back to the airflow problem : in racing the road keeps the cars up, but in flight planes are kept up by their drag
mircea_popescu: in order for it to generate enough force to keep all those tons in the air it has to have a certain density and flow pattern
mircea_popescu: basically if you try to fly a boeing behind another you'll just fall
mircea_popescu: and you'll probably fall for 100s of feet at a time because of inertia etc.
Apocalyptic: that i would be more likely to believe
mircea_popescu: leaving aside how incredibly dangerous it is (engines also need air, may likely stop etc), it's just not possible to smoothy fly that way
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1861 @ 0.00089206 = 1.6601 BTC [+]
wao-ender: I think mh370 flying at different altitude
mircea_popescu: well so then they're visibly distinct
mircea_popescu: good military radar works in micrometre by now you know
wao-ender: dunno how they made it, but this conspiracy with sia68 is really interesting
Apocalyptic: mircea_popescu, I have no knowledge of a radar indentifying how long an object is or whatever
mircea_popescu: well interesting it may well be, but it's fiction.
Apocalyptic: either it reflects the waves or it doesn't
Apocalyptic: I suppose you could achieve that with a special setup with multiple coordinated radars
mircea_popescu: radar is basically video in lower wavelengths, it's not that different.
mircea_popescu: it can see shape and "color" and everything you can see.
chetty: I wonder have radar setups gotten lazy? that is only bothering to look for transponders?
mircea_popescu: yeah but all of them ?
mircea_popescu: including military ? it crossed what, > 100 different sites.
chetty: well then we get to how may military vs civiliand radars along the way
Apocalyptic: pretty sure military radars don't give a fuck about transponders or not
mircea_popescu: yeah, wouldn't make much sense to limit themselves to that.
wao-ender: 'military' hm, how can you know that military doesn't hiding something from public?
mircea_popescu: yeah well.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12156 @ 0.00089206 = 10.8439 BTC [+]
Mats_cd03: we'll find out six years from now that they've been dead all along and were never actually on the island
wao-ender: > i don't see how they can make that up from shipping 3-4 tons of mangosteens
wao-ender: > which, to me, suggests there was something either hidden in the mangosteens or the manifest is fraudulent
Mats_cd03: oh wait, wrong plot
asciilifeform: who has a link (crackpot or otherwise) to the 'fifty reserved seats' thing?
wao-ender: here we go
ozbot: No hazardous cargo, just tonnes of mangosteens on flight MH370, says airline CEO - The Malaysian In
wao-ender: no hazardous cargo.
asciilifeform: any cargo is hazardous if the fellow with the remote control (usg) would rather that it not reach destination.
mircea_popescu: wait, mangosteens ?!
Apocalyptic: what's that ?
Mats_cd03: i wonder what a crashed airplane with mangosteens in hold would look like
mircea_popescu: is this a lowtax plot to troll the world ?
Mats_cd03: i do love me some mangosteen
mircea_popescu: plane went down because, "SO DONT FUCKING BUY IT, DONT FUCKING DRINK IT, DONT FUCKING CLICK MY LINKS."
wao-ender: Studies suggest that higher doses of xanthones may depress the central nervous system in animals and cause sedation.
mircea_popescu: this is what the us army has come to be, btw : those blondish dudes in a buzz cut with glasses.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19500 @ 0.00089457 = 17.4441 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: yeah lol
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6615 @ 0.00089689 = 5.9329 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13450 @ 0.00089142 = 11.9896 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 5 @ 0.05085001 = 0.2543 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06899959 = 0.138 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 4 @ 0.11950724 = 0.478 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 35 @ 0.0060241 = 0.2108 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what's so special about those?
asciilifeform: they look like ordinary 'office plankton'
asciilifeform: they're probably 'desk flyers', though
asciilifeform: grunts who are actually sent out in the field are usually more muscular-looking.
blackwhite: morning gents
dR3: g'day
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 1000 @ 0.0001499 = 0.1499 BTC [+]
kakobrekla: hello.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06899937 = 0.138 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14450 @ 0.00088806 = 12.8325 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.6053 BTC [-]
bitcoinpete: "In manufacturing, technology eliminates and relocates jobs, but welding robots will never design their own cars. It ain’t gonna happen. In finance, jobs on Wall Street and in The City will be eaten up by Bitcoin, but the invention of the distributed blockchain can’t replace creativity and trust. Kurzweil’s singularity be damned."
ozbot: It’s The People, Not The Protocol, Stupid | When Bitcoin Met Pete
blackwhite: nice strawman
blackwhite: welding robots do not have to design their own cars for cars to be designed automatically
asciilifeform: people far from engineering would be astounded at how much of every widget is already designed 'automatically,' for any reasonable sense of the word.
blackwhite: Even circuit boards are designed by "other circuit boards"
asciilifeform: e.g. electrical engineering, at today's universities, largely consists of learning to crank CAD and sims like SPICE.
asciilifeform: very few of the grads know anything but the most surface treatment of why the sim works the way it does
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 56 @ 0.00345674 = 0.1936 BTC [+] {5}
asciilifeform: historical note. when CNC machining was new, various business folks had delusions that they could be rid of the need to hire machinists.
asciilifeform: the result was, apparently, in the words of those living then, 'production of scrap metal at very high speeds.'
asciilifeform: a master machinist eats very well even today.
asciilifeform: even though he will not turn the cranks by hand.
ozbot: Major Discovery: 'Smoking Gun' for Universe's Incredible Big Bang Expansion Found | Space.com
asciilifeform: for some reason i thought that the slow cooling of the 5k background hum was already 'smoking gun.'
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 1000 @ 0.0001499 = 0.1499 BTC [+]
hdbuck: analysts at Citi Group told me he got offered to have his sort of pension fund in BTC?! such pokerface those banks. ^^
asciilifeform: hdbuck: what prevents anyone from having whatever in btc?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 200 @ 0.00332744 = 0.6655 BTC [-] {7}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 4000 @ 0.0001499 = 0.5996 BTC [+]
hdbuck: asciilifeform: nothing, just that he confirmed to me that banks have already started to deal with btc behind the curtain
asciilifeform: i thought this was old news.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 200 @ 0.0033091 = 0.6618 BTC [-] {5}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 4800 @ 0.00014998 = 0.7199 BTC [+] {2}
Apocalyptic: asciilifeform, ?
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: various hedge funds; and some consumer bank in france, if i recall
Apocalyptic: interesting, missed that
hdbuck: in france?!
asciilifeform: i last heard of it ages ago, might have vanished.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3750 @ 0.00088745 = 3.3279 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4652 @ 0.00088801 = 4.131 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] [PAID] 2.33749062 BTC to 3`951 shares, 59162 satoshi per share
Apocalyptic: "The recent collapse of bitcoin exchange Mr. Gox has caused alarm in the industry about the stability and security of the virtual currency" // they must include that everywhere...
thestringpuller: ;;ticker
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 623.71, Best ask: 625.58, Bid-ask spread: 1.87000, Last trade: 623.7, 24 hour volume: 6843.50990414, 24 hour low: 619.46, 24 hour high: 635.0, 24 hour vwap: 626.355003951
thestringpuller: ;;ticker --markets all
gribble: (ticker [--bid|--ask|--last|--high|--low|--avg|--vol] [--currency XXX] [--market <market>|all]) -- Return pretty-printed ticker. Default market is Bitstamp. If one of the result options is given, returns only that numeric result (useful for nesting in calculations). If '--currency XXX' option is given, returns ticker for that three-letter currency code. It is up to you to make (1 more message)
thestringpuller: ;;ticker --market all
chetty: show me the money / err alarm
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 623.7, vol: 6842.45497403 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 617.0, vol: 3741.72887 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 621.61, vol: 4251.82494996 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 635.01, vol: 62.51398694 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 611.454206, vol: 2820.20400000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 630.0, vol: 7.87890985 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 636.312876, vol: 52.31340017 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)
benkay: "stability and security"
benkay: look, there are no exchanges. there's no exchange rate.
benkay: look, end-users are responsible for their own security. it's not fucking secure.
benkay: davout why does bitcoin-central never get press mentions?
davout: benkay: define 'press mentions'
davout: coindesk ?
benkay: what do you take me for?!
davout: :D
mircea_popescu: bitcoinpete that's EXACTLY where the bad news starts for them.
davout: we do get some press, but usually it's paymium that's mentioned
mircea_popescu: they rationalize away "oh but bitcoin will never be smarter than us". sure it won't. then mp comes, and you're beyond fucked.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 6 @ 0.065 = 0.39 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> a master machinist eats very well even today. << yes, but he's not in a union is he.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 2514 @ 0.00015 = 0.3771 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: and o hai guise.
mircea_popescu: "The controversial owner of MPEx is" o look, i r controversial nao.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21098 @ 0.00088801 = 18.7352 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: so which one of you runs bitcoinx.com ?
mircea_popescu: JEFFREY SCOTT OWNBY. Ex BFL VP ?! you gotta be kidding me.
ThickAsThieves: bitcoinx is pretty old, i doubt anyone here runs it too
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves apparently owned by ex bfl officer ?
ThickAsThieves: it lives only cuz it comes up high on google searches for bitcoin mining calc
mircea_popescu: seems to have started jan 2013, then taken a 11 month break to december
ThickAsThieves: ironically i probly used it to determine i should ask for a refund on my BFL
mircea_popescu: https://twitter.com/bitcoinXnews wait, 2012ish by the twitter they link
ozbot: bitcoinx.com (bitcoinXnews) on Twitter
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 6 @ 0.05085001 = 0.3051 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 98 @ 0.00348885 = 0.3419 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 3 @ 0.05085 = 0.1526 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3800 @ 0.00088741 = 3.3722 BTC [-] {2}
ozbot: Ukrainian government refuses to remove troops from Crimea, prepares for war
mircea_popescu: what, again ?
mircea_popescu: didn't they call a general mobilisation nobody showed ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24800 @ 0.00088648 = 21.9847 BTC [-] {3}
LordPutin: but we won crimea fair and square, they even voted to join us
mircea_popescu: someone should make an ipo of a totally insane thing and just keep posting wall of text after wall of text of completely rambling, nonsensically, perhaps machine-generated text whenever someone says something
mircea_popescu: no wait, it's been done to death by hand already.
LordPutin: ipo bot
mircea_popescu: bo.ti.po
chetty: botipoo
LordPutin: satoshi spaceship
mircea_popescu: lol chetty
BingoBoingo: S.IPO.BOT
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 300 @ 0.00088801 = 0.2664 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 1590 @ 0.00349675 = 5.5598 BTC [+] {8}
artifexd: mircea_popescu Your 1 million atc wall on x-bt.com is gone. Eaten up.
mircea_popescu: coolness.
BingoBoingo: Oh, half an hour ago there were still a 300k or so left.
thestringpuller: stupid ipos
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5900 @ 0.00088748 = 5.2361 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 2 @ 0.05085 = 0.1017 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 10 @ 0.04997799 = 0.4998 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 3 @ 0.0491 = 0.1473 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 33 @ 0.00349999 = 0.1155 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 3 @ 0.069166 = 0.2075 BTC [+] {3}
ThickAsThieves: wow, i didnt know that the owners of about 130,000 properties are without their title deeds in Cyprus
ThickAsThieves: some having multiple owners and mortgages
mircea_popescu: yeah it's a mess
mircea_popescu: greece is similar, bulgaria less so but also.
mircea_popescu: very dangerous to buy property in non-torens lands.
asciilifeform: e.g. usa
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06898999 = 0.138 BTC [+]
ThickAsThieves: is there any argument to say they unit of account of Bitcoin is a bitcoin?
ThickAsThieves: or is it satoshis in all cases?
ThickAsThieves: and if so, is satoshi a documented name, or just what people say?
Dimsler: i don't think it matters
jurov: sometimes mili, micro, nano
Dimsler: microtransactions of that nature aren't possible
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9800 @ 0.00088636 = 8.6863 BTC [-]
ThickAsThieves: my question wasnt whether it matters
ThickAsThieves: merely if someone asks What is the unit of account in Bitcoin?
ThickAsThieves: what is the correct answer?
Dimsler: bitcoin
ThickAsThieves: i prefer a response from someone i think knows what;s up
ozbot: Gym Bro Successfully Gets Fake Feminist Thought Catalog Essay Published
Apocalyptic: artifexd, how do you know it was mircea's ?
BingoBoingo: Trolls trolling trolls getting trolls
jurov: ThickAsThieves: you want like "official" answer or what?
artifexd: There is reference to "satoshi" as the base element in the reference client code. All the code uses satoshi as the amount of accounting.
BingoBoingo: Apocalyptic: It's establishment and purpose were announced
Apocalyptic: somehow missed that too
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves the satoshi is quite clearly the only unit of account, a "bitcoin" is just a courtesy style.
Dimsler: satoshi is a denomincation
Dimsler: unit of account is bitcoin
mircea_popescu: the satoshi name is not documented, other than through ancient convention
Dimsler: ThickAsThieves, nobody in here knows whats up
mircea_popescu: Dimsler no actually exactly backwards
Dimsler: actually yes that is backwards
Dimsler: no wait
Dimsler: it depends on symantics
Dimsler: denomiations of bitcoin are just that
ThickAsThieves: it depends on malwarebytes mostly
Dimsler: satoshi as th elowest denomination
mircea_popescu: inasmuch as bitcoin protocol happily handles half a bitcoin
mircea_popescu: but can not handle half a satoshi
mircea_popescu: it should be pretty obvious what the unit of account is.
artifexd: If you're asking about the code, then the code keeps track of amounts in satoshi. API's accept amounts in satoshi.
ThickAsThieves: but the protocol does call it a satoshi?
ThickAsThieves: or does it not call it anything at all
Dimsler: i dont' think its actually named
Dimsler: its not called anything at all
artifexd: It is named in a comment. Variables don't contain the name.
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves does not call it anything at all.
artifexd: At least in the reference client.
mircea_popescu: artifexd has it.
mircea_popescu: "Some other questions: 1) how naked would you like the models to be?"
mircea_popescu: shit people ask me...
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 4000 @ 0.00349999 = 14 BTC [+] {2}
ThickAsThieves: on the probabilities of a bitcoin wallet being hacked, can any of you review this short text to tell me if it is generally acceptable? http://dpaste.com/1739894/
ThickAsThieves: to me it seems that hacking an addy would be even less probable than how this writer has approached it
asciilifeform: what's next? probability of nuclear war?
ThickAsThieves: just lookin for some insight on bitcoin, i'll leave the wars to the media
asciilifeform: just asking the question is an abuse of statistics
mircea_popescu: "both of these figures are reasonable estimates"
mircea_popescu: thjey're asspulls.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 200 @ 0.00349997 = 0.7 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: can be reasonably considered "absolutely secure" << depends by whom where for what purpose etc.
mircea_popescu: services to describe at least superficially describe their security policy
mircea_popescu: too much describe, and also who are you to make recommendations to people running services ?
ThickAsThieves: absolute is obviously a horrible choice of wording
mircea_popescu: let's translate it for a moment.
ThickAsThieves: whwn i share who wrote it, you'll understand why i'm questioning it
Apocalyptic: is it Amir ?
ThickAsThieves: there's really only one guess
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 4500 @ 0.00014999 = 0.675 BTC [+] {3}
ThickAsThieves: who is constantly trying to look smart while displaying stupidity?
ThickAsThieves: other than me
ozbot: dpaste: #1739920
mircea_popescu: there, that should put it in perspective.
mircea_popescu: now go make a... what, a wh petition.org ?
mircea_popescu: talk at a ##conference ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lol!
mircea_popescu: no but srsly. we are reddit, hear us roar already.
ThickAsThieves: the text was via vitalik
mircea_popescu: he's seriously wasting his talents in bitcoin
mircea_popescu: he should be in /r/wmd
ThickAsThieves: or climatechange/
mircea_popescu: no because that is actually intended as a chump party.
Apocalyptic: don't you know he's busy with ethereum
Apocalyptic: or whatever it's called
mircea_popescu: eterheum
Apocalyptic: "The 19-Year-Old Behind Ethereum, a New Digital Currency, Is Insanely Smart"
ThickAsThieves: such branding
bitcoinpete: o allo
bitcoinpete: mircea_popescu: haha beyond beyond.
mircea_popescu: wasn't ethereum more like a new ripple than a new bitcoin ?
mircea_popescu: heh i guess they covered it by calling it "digital currency"
Apocalyptic: that probably best describes it indeed
mircea_popescu: technically it could be a new ven
ThickAsThieves: it's a new mastercoin
bitcoinpete: ;:eauth bitcoinpete
bitcoinpete: ;;eauth bitcoinpete
gribble: Request successful for user bitcoinpete, hostmask bitcoinpete!~bitcoinpe@S01060016cbc6cced.ed.shawcable.net. Get your encrypted OTP from http://bitcoin-otc.com/otps/165749929F9A6BDD
mircea_popescu: but mastercoin was a new ripple once ripple got its guts ripped out
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7200 @ 0.00088636 = 6.3818 BTC [-]
ThickAsThieves: but ripple never asked you to relinquish your bitcoins to use it
bitcoinpete: ;;ident bitcoinpete
gribble: Nick 'bitcoinpete', with hostmask 'bitcoinpete!~bitcoinpe@S01060016cbc6cced.ed.shawcable.net', is not identified.
bitcoinpete: ;;verify freenode:#bitcoin-otc:da8bab51c90fb8c7142143eaa83df8ade8e8e0aa699576b2863f7245
gribble: Error: 'freenode:#bitcoin-otc:da8bab51c90fb8c7142143eaa83df8ade8e8e0aa699576b2863f7245' is not a valid http url.
benkay: if you want to avoid flailing around in public, you can get down with gribble via pm, bitcoinpete
Apocalyptic: bitcoinpete, try ;;everify
bitcoinpete: ;;everify freenode:#bitcoin-otc:da8bab51c90fb8c7142143eaa83df8ade8e8e0aa699576b2863f7245
gribble: You are now authenticated for user bitcoinpete with key 165749929F9A6BDD
bitcoinpete: benkay: sorry dude
benkay: sheesh bitcoinpete stop burning my electrons
bitcoinpete: benkay: I coulda sworn I went through that rigamarole once before… hopefully this is the last public flailing
benkay: ;;gpg eauth benkay
gribble: Request successful for user benkay, hostmask benkay!~user@76-251-110-24.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net. Get your encrypted OTP from http://bitcoin-otc.com/otps/39F274AFBC7ACAC7
benkay: ;;everify freenode:#bitcoin-otc:a38d09183a201e377da24b96a6e0747f0e7fc58b5b0a0f8f24ab10bd
gribble: You are now authenticated for user benkay with key 39F274AFBC7ACAC7
benkay: worth doing once a day.
benkay: sometimes in public, sometimes in private.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 12 @ 0.05108899 = 0.6131 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16800 @ 0.00089112 = 14.9708 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17400 @ 0.00088636 = 15.4227 BTC [-]
hdbuck: what's with MP's statement on twitter saying there is no such thing as Bitcoin core devs?! *mind blown 2*
benkay: nobody uses anything post 0.6
benkay: everyone calling themselves a core dev has hacked on the cpp hairball that turned into 0.7 and then 0.8
mircea_popescu: well for further mind blown, consider there's no bitcoin jesus, either o.O
mircea_popescu is kinda surprised nobody claimed to be bitcoin santa.
hdbuck: mircea_popescu: gosh was convinced it was you ^^
mircea_popescu: i guess in the end people do suck.
mircea_popescu: i only bring gifts to chicks that dress properly.
lopp: Nobody uses bitcoind > 0.6? Are you saying that http://getaddr.bitnodes.io/dashboard/ is so underwhelming because it's only counting nodes >= 0.7?
bitcoinyeezus: lopp: who knows
bitcoinyeezus: lopp: do you run your node constantly?
lopp: i do
bitcoinyeezus: does everyone?
lopp: only the really nerdy / early bitcoiners from my experience bother running full nodes
bitcoinyeezus: well then who can know what the whelmingness of that thinger implies abouty reality anyways?
midnightmagic twitches uncontrollably at mention of "bitcoin jesus" down in the Caribbean complaining about how slow it is to open a bank account as a recent import from the US
bitcoinyeezus: kinda messy questionspace.
midnightmagic: apparently two days to wait to renounce US citizenship was too much for him, cause "they're after me." wtf.
mircea_popescu: lopp well "nobody" more in the sense of bitcoin owned
artifexd: loop: At the bottom of that page " Bitnodes uses Bitcoin protocol version 70001 (i.e. >= /Satoshi:0.7.x/), so nodes with older protocol version will be skipped."
bitcoinyeezus: (just 'cause it has Satoshi in the client string doesn't mean shit about the authors)
lopp: right, it's relatively underwhelming because it used to report > 100,000 nodes
lopp: as yeezus noted, we don't really know enough to say whether or not these numbers should be underwhelming. I'm of the opinion that we don't have enough insight into the load that the nodes are bearing.
bitcoinyeezus: mircea_popescu only knows that by volume owned statistic because he's actually the owner of the 'satoshi hoard'.
lopp: that is, how much more volume of requests could the average node be handling before it is straining its computational / bandwidth resources
bitcoinyeezus: what does load have to do with anything?
midnightmagic: there is virtually no load. i run an experimental node that deals with a few dozen transactions a day on an eeepc 701 just for fun.
mircea_popescu: yeah the load isn't really significant
mircea_popescu: it's more in terms of security, due to various graph splitting attacks that coudl conceivably be deployed
bitcoinyeezus: we must all be talking past one another today.
lopp: gotcha - I keep hearing that it's trivial but I guess I'd prefer to see actual numbers regarding, say, how many SPV client requests the average node is handling / how many historical block and tx lookups it's handling, how many invalid txs it's deciding not to relay, etc
bitcoinyeezus: lopp: sit down and figure it out. write it up, post it somewhere. contribute to bitcoin nollij.
lopp: that's the direction I seem to be headed :-)
bitcoinyeezus: real dearth of people doing stuff in btc.
midnightmagic: a bunch of us are trying to connect via non-internet connections to at least measure any attempt at chosen-cut/isolation attacks.
bitcoinyeezus: my ass just got hammered with work as well
bitcoinyeezus: have you heard of such attacks happening, midnightmagic?
midnightmagic: bitcoinyeezus: I have heard of them. I have never personally witnessed one happening.
mircea_popescu: i've never seen proof of one happening either.
midnightmagic: ^^ probably running more-connected nodes than I am.
mircea_popescu: the theoretical possibility still exists, in a variety of very difficult to model variants
mircea_popescu: this'd eminently be one of those asciilifeform "parachute first pls" cases
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 7 @ 0.06898999 = 0.4829 BTC [+] {2}
asciilifeform: didn't somebody just bring up 'leased lines' as a kind of pill against net splits?
diametric: probably
asciilifeform: as i gather, you'd want to covertly connect two nodes (in 'distant') parts of graph with leased line
midnightmagic: There is a really neat paper that asserts that if you know "enough" about the edges of a connected graph network and measure the messages, you can map most messages sources.
midnightmagic: where "enough" is smaller than I ever expected it to be
mircea_popescu: midnightmagic the tor stuff ?
midnightmagic: and "measurement" is just.. like a few nodes.
asciilifeform: old news.
midnightmagic: mircea_popescu: No I'm trying to find the link now, it's a really weird little paper that nobody I mention it to has heard of.
midnightmagic: asciilifeform: local meshnet, POTS, satellite, moon, and ham frequencies.
asciilifeform: even 'truck loaded with tapes' if low latency is not a critical requirement.
ozbot: As Female GitHub Coder Claims Harassment, Silicon Valley Stands At Crossroads | Wired Business | Wir
Apocalyptic: carrier pigeons even
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 1921 @ 0.00015 = 0.2882 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: silicon valley stands at a crossroad indeed. one way, despair and utter hopelessness
mircea_popescu: on the other, total extinction
mircea_popescu: i pray they have the wisdom to choose correctly.
benkay: what happened to manners?
mircea_popescu: "A software engineer named Julie Ann Horvath sent shock waves across Silicon Valley over the weekend" = "nobody gave a shit, so we'll just keep yakking about it"
mircea_popescu: too much press, too little olive oil.
asciilifeform: i read the first turd, and my puny brain was utterly unable to determine wtf the deal was.
ozbot: Hey, stupid women ? We need to talk. Smart women don’t want to be with you anymore. pe Trilema - U
mircea_popescu: this, basically.
asciilifeform: yeah i read this even, but i still don't 'get' it. what does the woman want?
asciilifeform: 'hush money' ?
mircea_popescu: she wants attention.
mircea_popescu: and to be told that she's important, and valuable, and remarkable and all the rest of the shit women her age want
mircea_popescu: except since she's incapable of fidning a boyfriend, she would like obamacare to pay for it.
mircea_popescu: and obamacare does pay for it, because what else is govbernment for
mircea_popescu: if not to make people happy.
asciilifeform: aha, the 'Professionally Sad'
mircea_popescu: just... the social media generation.
mircea_popescu: notice how nowhere is it mentioned what the fuck the woman actually did at any point.
mircea_popescu: an entire generation of these, ballas spent some time discussing the zuckerberg woman
asciilifeform: probably something like 'untergruppenführer'
mircea_popescu: they're not as much professionally sad as professionally useless
mircea_popescu: i wish some of those "business leaders" or w/e they are actually came forward to plainly state that they don't care, they'll never care, and the peons can get back to the mine.
asciilifeform: afaik, these folks aren't in it for the money - if the 'doxxing' is to be believed, leah for instance is loaded
mircea_popescu: obviously this isn't liable to happen in any venue that's doomed.
mircea_popescu: which is how i conclude silicon valley ain't got much more life left in it.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform hoiw's she loaded ? she just has rich friends.
mircea_popescu: her constant welfare is dependant strictly on those folks continuing to like her.
asciilifeform: i recall she had lands/estates or something?
mircea_popescu: she owed on a 175k mortgage. that ?
asciilifeform: hm right
asciilifeform: living on borrowed money, then, nm
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2200 @ 0.00088898 = 1.9558 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8450 @ 0.00089119 = 7.5306 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 800 @ 0.00015997 = 0.128 BTC [+] {3}
ozbot: Neighbourhood Pool Watch: 18.1 Who owns 1HTM4TYSXF5yZKLpco6MTUUNfSBCiiwGsU ?
mircea_popescu: this guy is doing a lot of plant art.
mircea_popescu: "Every post from MPOE-PR I read gives me physical pain"
mircea_popescu: bwahaha she wins.
asciilifeform: there seems to be a 'garlic/vampire' dynamic with mpoepr.
mircea_popescu: how;s that ?
asciilifeform: the only folks who have a been with the woman seem to be obvious malefactors
mircea_popescu: a that. yeah.
mircea_popescu: i was thinking more along the lines of, hey dear pentagon, if you're looking to start a research project into how to give people physical pain over the wire... i got the only documented case of this happening working for me.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if you recall, i found you in the first place because of a letter from mpoepr. she was never anything other than impeccably polite to me.
mircea_popescu: she's a well brought up young lady, what.
mircea_popescu: she's polite to me too.
mircea_popescu: probably they're mostly incensed because she knows too many words.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 3 @ 0.06898999 = 0.207 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: "women in tech", but only for just as long as a) they're stupid and b) they don't ever do anything let alone make calls.
mircea_popescu: gotta keep them bitches in their place, you know.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 142 @ 0.06898999 = 9.7966 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 4 @ 0.06800005 = 0.272 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 4 @ 0.0506 = 0.2024 BTC [-]
midnightmagic: I think this is the paper here: http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.0354
midnightmagic: "Identifying Infection Sources and Regions in Large Networks"
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 4 @ 0.06962498 = 0.2785 BTC [+] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7200 @ 0.00088743 = 6.3895 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 2571 @ 0.000149 = 0.3831 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4600 @ 0.00088972 = 4.0927 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5400 @ 0.00088972 = 4.8045 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 1000 @ 0.00349999 = 3.5 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 200 @ 0.0035 = 0.7 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 45 @ 0.0035 = 0.1575 BTC [+]
ThickAsThieves: The latest version ofthe LMB Holdings (Neo & Bee, Easycoin, Neo Xchange) prospectus has been posted at https://www.lmb-holdings.com
ThickAsThieves: The document is currently accessible using Google Docs at this link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1khGADbJeu0efCNZ13lnz8BucG7PfS5Cl9lBZ1sncY-4/
ThickAsThieves: Please note that an updated link to a PDF version will be posted at lmb-holdings.com soon.
ThickAsThieves: Also, additional updated information will be provided later this week.
benkay: i think you mean in two weeks
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CFIG] 15 @ 0.08012265 = 1.2018 BTC [-] {7}
Apocalyptic: soon-ish
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 181 @ 0.0035 = 0.6335 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 2000 @ 0.00014896 = 0.2979 BTC [-] {5}
benkay: okay i have found a use for the alts
benkay: training wheels
benkay: from the local bitcoin room: "omg i broke my doge-wallet"
benkay: "good thing it's just doge, and not bit."
benkay: "ya i guess you're right el oh el oh el"
asciilifeform: benkay: i thought that's what btc 'testnet' was for.
benkay: one would, would one not?
benkay: alert readers these are not, tho.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21721 @ 0.00088632 = 19.2518 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 5 @ 0.06620002 = 0.331 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 9 @ 0.0662 = 0.5958 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 6 @ 0.0662 = 0.3972 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 4 @ 0.0662 = 0.2648 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 32 @ 0.05108899 = 1.6348 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 314 @ 0.00085529 = 0.2686 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 600 @ 0.00084356 = 0.5061 BTC [-] {6}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 220 @ 0.0035 = 0.77 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 5 @ 0.06440003 = 0.322 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 174 @ 0.00083764 = 0.1457 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 7 @ 0.0510727 = 0.3575 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 53 @ 0.0035 = 0.1855 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 20 @ 0.0644 = 1.288 BTC [-] {5}
mircea_popescu: benkay kinda the idea all along
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 100 @ 0.0035 = 0.35 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 10 @ 0.064388 = 0.6439 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 200 @ 0.00596155 = 1.1923 BTC [-] {6}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5650 @ 0.00088721 = 5.0127 BTC [+]
ThickAsThieves: Nate Silver's prediction site: http://fivethirtyeight.com/
ozbot: FiveThirtyEight | FiveThirtyEight’s NCAA Tournament Predictions
ThickAsThieves: maybe some BitBets are in order
mircea_popescu: if nate silver, whoever he is, gets some sctatch together
ThickAsThieves: "We may have gone from conceiving of government as an entity that builds roads, dams and airports, provides shared services like schooling, policing and national parks, and wages wars, into the world’s largest insurance broker."
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16119 @ 0.00088732 = 14.3027 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 35 @ 0.0035 = 0.1225 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06898998 = 0.138 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 223 @ 0.0035 = 0.7805 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 15000 @ 0.00015998 = 2.3997 BTC [+] {7}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [COG] 5 @ 0.03988054 = 0.1994 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 25 @ 0.60512519 = 15.1281 BTC [-] {7}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10700 @ 0.00088773 = 9.4987 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 200 @ 0.0035 = 0.7 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: soo, BingoBoingo bitcoinpete jborkl and generally ppl doing blogs : ima be doing a little bit of sec wikileaking in a few hours.
mircea_popescu: it;s going to consist of raw material, you can comment whichever way so get your pencils ready.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13617 @ 0.00088857 = 12.0997 BTC [+] {2}
steven-__: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/20nequ/leah_mcgrath_goodman_i_have_learned_this_about/
Mats_cd03: nate silver is well known as a statistician
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47235 @ 0.00089226 = 42.1459 BTC [+] {4}
steven-__: he used to post on 2+2 and had a blog raitng the best burritos in his city
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 200 @ 0.00088997 = 0.178 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 50 @ 0.0035 = 0.175 BTC [+]
steven-__: http://burritobracket.blogspot.com/
ozbot: The Burrito Bracket
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 354 @ 0.0035 = 1.239 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 1000 @ 0.0035 = 3.5 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 100 @ 0.0035 = 0.35 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 428 @ 0.0035 = 1.498 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 120 @ 0.0035 = 0.42 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4133 @ 0.00088971 = 3.6772 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 4 @ 0.06898992 = 0.276 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 78 @ 0.00349999 = 0.273 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 761 @ 0.00349999 = 2.6635 BTC [-] {5}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 102 @ 0.0035 = 0.357 BTC [+]
benkay: mircea_popescu: released on trilema?
mircea_popescu: steven-__ that's like rather old #suckstobeleah posturing neh ?
mircea_popescu: bc.info down huh
steven-__: I think she said this recently in an effort to stay relevant
mircea_popescu: was last week afaik
ThickAsThieves: yep BC says it's a database server thing
ThickAsThieves: and "all coins are safe"
mircea_popescu: i imagine they would be.
asciilifeform: so, got me first digital scope. a bit pissed that it has... moving parts. (fan, and, more outrageously, relays!)
mircea_popescu: electromechanical relays are teh best no ?
asciilifeform: surely somebody makes solid-state relays that don't attenuate 100Mhz.
asciilifeform: (yes, i know, they're almost certainly in the $10K american gizmo that my unit is a chinese copy of.)
asciilifeform: funnily, the instrument (a 'rigol ds1102d') has a 'declassification guide' chapter in manual
asciilifeform: which shows which locations on the mainboard are RAMs and therefore should be used for target practice
asciilifeform: when unit is written off
asciilifeform: this tells us that nato folks probably buy these.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9659 @ 0.00088736 = 8.571 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: and, that they believe in a serious way, in the 'sram remanence' hypothesis.
asciilifeform: (gizmo has 'flash' on board also, being a cheap linux pc really, but it is not the only chip marked.)
mircea_popescu: may be just "what is done" according to the chinese corp in question
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 48 @ 0.00354687 = 0.1702 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: my apologies if i'm the only one who finds this interesting.
asciilifeform: actually i admit i've always been curious about ion migration in sram cells, but the literature is mostly silent on the subject.
asciilifeform: to no one's great surprise.
mircea_popescu: so what'd ion migration do ? show whether the user likes vi or emacs ?
mircea_popescu: or uses a lot of pine ?
asciilifeform: same idea as crt 'burnin'
asciilifeform: except, in sram
asciilifeform: one would need, likely, an instrument built for the purpose to read out the 'bias' on the bits
mircea_popescu: i get that. hence the pine comment.
asciilifeform: rather than merely using the chip as prescribed
asciilifeform: correct.
bitcoinpete: mircea_popescu: sharpened and ready
mircea_popescu: hehe isn't irc fun.
bitcoinpete: mircea_popescu: totally.
bitcoinpete: also, was this sarcastic or serious? 01:47:56mircea_popescu:"Being quiet and studious is broadly unknown in a western culture that prizes views, likes and the inane extraversion required to generate them." no see, that's attacking people's self esteem.
bitcoinpete: did I go too far?
dexX7: he's never sarcastic and i'm serious
dexX7: tricky now, eh? ;)
ozbot: Reposessing web hosting accounts with Photoshop
mircea_popescu: would-be bitbet hackjer confesses
dignork: mircea_popescu, so the only problem he found is that you;re not supposed to smile on photo-id, lol
mircea_popescu: i wonder how many of the internet haxxors ever had a passport made in the first place.
mircea_popescu: i mean for one thing you can't even get one till you're 18 in many places
asciilifeform: turns out that many people in usa haven't a passport.
dignork: mircea_popescu, but googling for "us passport sample" gives plenty of much more beleivable exmaples
mircea_popescu: well googling.
asciilifeform: (and may or may not have ever seen one)
artifexd: My daughter had a passport before she as a month old.
mircea_popescu: what are you trying to do over here, give people sprains ?
mircea_popescu: artifexd im sure she'll rtemember that :D
artifexd: She won't, but mom and I will.
artifexd: Anyway, the point was that in the US, pre-18yo passports are common.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15650 @ 0.00088558 = 13.8593 BTC [-] {3}
mircea_popescu: i thought that was a major issue in the us because of kidnapping concerns
mircea_popescu: (ie, married couple has falling out, either one of them takes kids to mexico)
asciilifeform: afaik you don't need passport for mexico.
asciilifeform: (from usa)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform when i crossed there it was like... lolk.
artifexd: I can state with certainty that Ecuador has rules requiring notrized documentation from the not-present parent for taking a child out of the country. The US doesn't.
asciilifeform: nm, cancelled in '04 it seems
asciilifeform: now u.s. folks need passport to return from anywhere.
artifexd: My wife has taken our daughter to Ecuador a couple times and no one asked me a damned thing.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 97 @ 0.00354687 = 0.344 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 28 @ 0.00357998 = 0.1002 BTC [+]
ughlol: mircea_popescu: found out you're a billionaire.. sorry to have spoken rudely the other day
ughlol: :P
mircea_popescu: you had ? i hadn't noticed.
ughlol: i did
ughlol: i mean, i dont want you hiring a hitman with btc to take me out right? :P
ughlol: mircea_popescu: now, getting straight to the point, do you invest? =P
BingoBoingo: K pencils at the ready for this data dump
mircea_popescu: sometimes.
ughlol: mircea_popescu: mind a pm?
mircea_popescu: yeah, you're prolly better off talking in public anyway.
mircea_popescu: more people here thjan just me.
Dimsler: it doesn't count if they are you minions
Dimsler: your
ninjashogun: guys, I'm watching htis channel as actually in talking with ughlol I'm the one who mentioned mirceau as being high-net-worth. he's from India and has access to a much poorer network of investors than some western countries
ninjashogun: I was talking about how many billionaires/millionaires I know as an American (just 1-2 of the former even if we include mirceau) :)
jurov: ughlol have you read recent trilema stuff?
ninjashogun: I'd like to introduce ughlol based on my conversations with him.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 145 @ 0.00613706 = 0.8899 BTC [+] {8}
jurov: iirc there were some pieces about you both
ughlol: jurov: not really, no..
ninjashogun: ughlol is working on an extremely interesting social network for real spaces, based on shared interests - for exmaple, at a bar if someone is into the exact same bands as you, then you could both be notified.
ninjashogun: so it would work (my words) as an "introduction service" that - if two people both opt in - introduce each other.
jurov: wasn't that the rape stuff?
ninjashogun: That is a feature he is interested in adding, has nothing to do with the social network.
ughlol: jurov: The rape intervention is a part of a much bigger app.
ninjashogun: Another example I can think of is let's say two people are both open source developres. If they put that, then they'd be notified if they're at the same bar - very cool.
jurov: oh okay. just go read trilema then.
ninjashogun: Due to its double-opt-in nature, it is especially good as a dating solution.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 100 @ 0.00358 = 0.358 BTC [+]
ninjashogun: He is also an engineering student in India, and as such he has access to a very good source of labor.
ninjashogun: On the downside, he has no access to a venture capital ecosystem.
ninjashogun: In addition I've seen some of his skills in pentesting and security, and think he is the real deal in terms of what he can program. Here is his site, where you can see his photo and full name as well:
jurov: i don'thave a vulture capital access, too and i'm fine
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 500 @ 0.00358 = 1.79 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: vulture capital lol
ughlol: jurov: I think you can understand that it is difficult (not impossible, but difficult) to create something from nothing.
mircea_popescu: interesting way to put it
jurov: ughlol, such as... bitcoins?
ughlol: mircea_popescu: Interesting indeed, but ofc, I am looking for investment.. You can call yourself a venture capitalist, investor, angel investor or whatever you like :)
ughlol: jurov: not bitcoins, but a mobile app
ninjashogun: sociostop.com is his current address
ughlol: a social networking app that is meant only for mobile devices
BingoBoingo: Wait, isn't this just what Tinder and Grindr do?
ughlol: since the social networking scene is shifting off computers and onto mobile devices.
BingoBoingo: Except with rape as a feature
ninjashogun: and you can see his face, name, and profile there
jurov: grindr doesn't do rape afaik
ughlol: BingoBoingo: Tinder was active since 2012, and they dont have much..
ninjashogun: BingoBoingo, I would forget about that portion. It's very germane in India where it is a big problem. If he were from Detroit he would put in bullet tracking information based on echolocation - how far away is that shooting? :)
ughlol: I want to create a social network that completely revolves around location services
ThickAsThieves: ...these guys are scamming, sorry
ughlol: ThickAsThieves: can I at least discuss the idea?
ThickAsThieves: i cant stop you
ThickAsThieves: but i cant respect you either
jurov: you don't discuss, you just pew out nonsense
ughlol: There might be people interested in investing in such an idea.
BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: What ever happened to your Dogecoin investor?
BingoBoingo: ;;lasers
gribble: ┌━ ┄ ┄ ┄ ┄ ┄ ┄ *pew!* *pew!* *pew!*
jurov: ughlol the people considered it, wrote blog about it and rejected it
jurov: and you dn't even want to read it
jurov: so gtfo
ughlol: jurov: I would love to read, can you give me a link?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 100 @ 0.00358 = 0.358 BTC [+]
ughlol: jurov: are you talking about http://trilema.com/ ?
jurov: yes, on rilema.com some of the top right
jurov: *trilema
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 44 @ 0.00358 = 0.1575 BTC [+]
ozbot: “You cannot fix a machine by just power-cycling it with no understanding of what is going wrong.â€
ninjashogun: so, ThickAsThieves, here is a COMPLETE scrollback: http://pastebin.com/iTLNPmmq
ThickAsThieves: no thanks
ThickAsThieves: ive been readin all day
ninjashogun: I'd like you to read through it and apologize. no way would I fabricate this, with timestamps, just for some 'scam'. I also don't know him personally.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 555 @ 0.0036 = 1.998 BTC [+]
ThickAsThieves: i'm already feeling woozy
ThickAsThieves: gotta save myself for this trilemaleaks event
ninjashogun: Well given that you have just taken it upon yourself to accuse me of being a scammer with ughlol it's up to you to take about 35 seconds to scroll through that and determine that, in fact, I have just met him, and you're a fucking troll who should either stop trolling and apologize or (obviously) eat shit or die
ThickAsThieves: i dont have to do shit for you
ninjashogun: So it's really all the same to me, but I would prefer if you'd do the noble, proper thing and take a few seconds to do that.
Dimsler: fuck
Dimsler: the trolls that this channel attracts
ninjashogun: No, of course you can sit around trying to slander and destroy people's reputations. Thanks for doing the right thing and taking 15 seconds to admit you're wrong though.
Dimsler: man nobody is giving you a penny in here
Dimsler: gtfo
ThickAsThieves: you are demonstrably capable of ruining your own rep
Dimsler: lol what rep?
nubbins`: HAHAHAHAH
Dimsler: two clowns
nubbins`: ninjashogun are you in here with your ideas again?
ughlol: Im sorry you feel that way.
ninjashogun: nubbins`, no I just introduced ughlol
jurov tries to think of suitable slanderous soul memepic
ThickAsThieves: now i'm putting you both on ignore for when you come back in a few weeks with your hands out for some other bullshit
benkay: ninjashogun: you ain't introducing shit we already ran him out of here.
ThickAsThieves: at least youll need to change your IP
nubbins` chuckles
Dimsler: lol
Dimsler: clowns
nubbins`: YOU GUISE
ninjashogun: I think his idea is perfectly fine.
Dimsler: what the idea
Dimsler: entertain all of us
ninjashogun: There's just one part of the scrollback that is funny - and that shows he's still a student :)
nubbins`: so go make things with him
Dimsler: with how sutpid itis
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 2 @ 0.05108999 = 0.1022 BTC [+]
ninjashogun: ctrl-f "i wanna be a billionaire" - http://pastebin.com/iTLNPmmq
jurov: Dimsler use teh log.. and there was moar yest
ninjashogun: that part is funny :)
ughlol: nothing wrong in wanting to be a billionaire! :P
ninjashogun: i wanna be a billionaire - and a programming job can't even make me a millionaire - id have to struggle hard just to make ends meet
Dimsler: oh yeah
ninjashogun: that is very funny :)
Dimsler: two idiots
ninjashogun: and really shows his age
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 15 @ 0.0655 = 0.9825 BTC [-] {6}
ninjashogun: But he could have the same attitude if he were in San Francisco.
ughlol: Why is everybody trolling?
ughlol: mircea_popescu: Now you understand why I wanted to pm?
ninjashogun: ughlol - it's the nature of htis channel, I told you
Dimsler: because you're a retard
ninjashogun: ughlol, mirceau is not going to invest in you, unless oyu had a ton of traction
benkay: Dimsler gets it
ninjashogun: you would need to have a lot of different users already.
benkay: dude ninjashogun if you say traction around mp he'll probably just kill you and feed you to the harpies
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 16 @ 0.065 = 1.04 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 2 @ 0.0516 = 0.1032 BTC [+]
ughlol: true
benkay: social media does not fly here.
dub: guys guys guys
jurov: rape whistle billionaires either
ninjashogun: benkay - he doesn't like that word?
Dimsler: lol
Dimsler: its like
dub: we're forgetting how important young people are
Dimsler: scammers trying to scam the scammer
nubbins`: dub ;(
ughlol: Dimsler: :) You're so full of yourself. Give me your name, and I'll destroy your rep. Only if you have the courage.
nubbins`: it's why i weep for tomorrow
ughlol: And now Im done sugar-coating shit
Dimsler takes out his cheque book
ughlol: just to appease you, the filthy rich
Dimsler: how many million
Dimsler: should i write out for you?
ughlol: Dimsler: just your real name bro.
nubbins`: lel.
ughlol: I bet you dont have the guts either way.
dub: oh wow
nubbins`: why you puffin' up your chest bro?
dub: cause internet
Dimsler: i know
Dimsler: frontin
ughlol: nubbins`: because I think I have an idea that works.
dub: ;;google greater internet fuckwad
gribble: Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory | Know Your Meme: <http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/greater-internet-fuckwad-theory>; Online disinhibition effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect>; Penny Arcade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_Arcade>
Dimsler: no you don't
jurov: it whistles
ughlol: And just because you're trolls doesn't mean you can talk shit about it! :)
Dimsler: if you did why would you be in here
ughlol: Dimsler: that is your opinion.
nubbins`: ughlol: that's lovely, an idea! congrats :D
ughlol: Dimsler: to try to gather investment ofc.
Dimsler: no i think thats fact
nubbins`: most people don't get that far
ughlol: precisely
BingoBoingo: ughlol: Have you tried #dogecoin ninjashogun Seemed to find interest there before
ughlol: no BingoBoingo.. I haven't..
Dimsler: lol why are you people entertaining him?
jurov: it's her, no?
Dimsler: its a woman?
ughlol: wow
BingoBoingo: ughlol: In #dogecoin you may even find people who want to try your social thing
Dimsler: ughlol, where from nigeria are you from?
dub: why didnt you say so? where to I sign
ughlol: Dimsler: Its funny you ask. Because there were repeated statements saying Im Indian. You must be illitereate.
ughlol: But thats okay.
Dimsler: nigerian?
ughlol: Illiterate*
ughlol: Indian.
Dimsler: why are you here?
Dimsler: everyon said no
dub: india and nigera are basically the same place
ughlol: to try and find investment for a business.
Dimsler: we are not interested
Dimsler: now leave
ughlol: dub: and you failed in geography.
ozbot: Interacting with fiat institution, a guide pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
mircea_popescu: there we go.
steven-__: are you saying in this log you have never used source control only heard about it?
ughlol: Dimsler: You are not interested.
Dimsler: nobody is interested
ughlol: So you gtfo?
steven-__: Mar 17 22:52:09 <ninjashogun> how do you do source control?
steven-__: Mar 17 22:52:15 <ughlol> Github
steven-__: Mar 17 22:52:22 <ughlol> though i've never used it for any of my projects
ughlol: I wanted to speak to mircea_popescu .
Dimsler: lol why
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo bitcoinpete
ughlol: If he says he's not interested, I'll leave immediately.
benkay: holy shit mircea_popescu!
Dimsler: mircea_popescu, tell the troll to leave
jurov: ughlol, you want to talk to him even after what he write on his blog?
ughlol: Yes.
ughlol: Just to discuss.
ughlol: I feel theres nothing wrong in that.
ughlol: But only if he likes.
Dimsler: lol
ughlol: If he asks me to leave, I'll gtfo.
Dimsler: online panhandling
Dimsler: masked as a scam
ughlol: Im not even asking for money.
ughlol: Im asking you to listen.
ughlol: and think without bias.
bitcoinpete: mircea_popescu: bam!
mircea_popescu: so now that everyone else can be busy, ughlol what was it you wanted to discuss ?
ughlol: mircea_popescu: let me know if you have 10minutes to spare.. after that, I'll not bother you.
ughlol: But on pm, if you dont mind.
jurov: what if he rapes you?
steven-__: what about the log?
ughlol: I know im practically nothing, and probably don't even deserve talking to someone like you.
ughlol: But I admire billionaires.
Dimsler: ughlol, why? hes just a scammer like you are
ughlol: Thats my dream, which I might never reach.
Dimsler: you might even learn somethin from him
mircea_popescu: it's not practical to discuss things with me privately. we have no basis for that, and whatever you say is perhaps useful for others, later.
ughlol: Dimsler: Yes, I am sure I can learn something from him. Hence I want to talk.
BingoBoingo: "Asking them to pick up your daughter and throw her over a cliff however is an illegal request."
jurov: Dimsler she learned nothing so far
jurov: 10 mins wont change that
Dimsler: oh well
ughlol: mircea_popescu: I wont ask you about investment. Just want to learn and understand your opinion. I read your blog article, and what you say makes a lot of sense. Thats why.
ughlol: Its a request.
mircea_popescu: so go ahead and ask, what.
ughlol: Over pm please?
mircea_popescu: lemme explain how this works.
ughlol: Otherwise all your friends - Dimsler, jurov, etc will keep interrupting with their comments.
ughlol: ok?
mircea_popescu: i'm currently donating my time discussing things with people who otherwise would never get to talk to me, because i believe in some things.
Dimsler: lol
mircea_popescu: you can't try to leverage that into something that otherwise costs a whole lot of money.
ThickAsThieves: thanks for the post MP
ughlol: Im only asking 10mins on a private chat.
ThickAsThieves: very interested to see how they proceed, assuming you'll share
pizzaman1337: yeah, awesome post. Keep us updated! :D
ThickAsThieves: also interested to see how they proceed, knowing you are sharing
Dimsler: nie gavarit pa rusku?
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves i dun imagine there's any proceeding to be had.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re: sec: lol!
ughlol: mircea_popescu: Can you spare 10mins on pm, or you want me to gtfo like everybody else wants?
mircea_popescu: very cheeky attitude, "here's the extrusion process we expect everything to go through, we'll just keep repeating it"
mircea_popescu: sorta feels like talking to customer support.
Dimsler: mircea_popescu, which post are they talking about
mircea_popescu: ughlol you know what a fake dichotomy is ?
mircea_popescu: Dimsler latest prolly.
Dimsler: nvm
Dimsler: got it
ughlol: mircea_popescu: yes, a little bit.
ughlol: a false dilemma
ninjashogun: ughlol - you should not try so hard for a PM now
mircea_popescu: aha. so, take your time, ask whatever it is you need to ask.
ninjashogun: ughlol - access to mirceau (I just read the most recent few lines, haven't been reading scrollback) is, as he correctly states, a VERY good opportunity
ninjashogun: you should use it for when you have shipped, have a good idea, paying users, and good traction.
benkay: tiberius?
benkay: is that you tiberius?
ughlol: oh
ughlol: okay
ninjashogun: nobody invests in the idea stage.
ughlol: my bad then
ughlol: mircea_popescu: simple question, if i create a prototype for the app that i want to build, would you even consider investing in it?
mircea_popescu: ughlol no.
mircea_popescu: you don't have the position to promote that particular thing. you need a different idea.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Is the timestamp on that last email correct?
ughlol: mircea_popescu: a different idea how?
ughlol: You want me to completely change the idea?
ughlol: Or modify it a little bit?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40450 @ 0.00088766 = 35.9058 BTC [+] {3}
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo no it is not. fixed now and ima check the whole stack.,
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Thanks. WOnder how long it will take for the SEC position to align with the reality of MPEx as SRO
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, I saw your article on ughlol and think it completely misrepresents ughlol's idea and is extremely unfair. As long as it includes no identifying information, it's a simple troll and abuse of your power - which is fine. It will disappear off the Internet and nobody will read it again. However it is in no way accurate based on my conversation with him.
mircea_popescu: ninjashogun can you be specific ?
ninjashogun: is the one I'm talking about.
mircea_popescu: that much i understand.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo may take another secx.
ninjashogun: Based on my impression, the same thing could have been said about Twitter or Facebook.
mircea_popescu: i don't have a very good impression of either.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [RENT] 20 @ 0.0056864 = 0.1137 BTC [-] {2}
ninjashogun: Facebook could be called: "A myspace based on a radical idea. You can ONLY register if you have a .edu account! They have literally just blown myspace out of the water by getting AT MOST 0.5% as many users, because at most 0.5% - one in one two hundred - people in the world uses an active .edu account."
ninjashogun: "Why limit yourself to 6 billion people when you can limit yourself to FIFTY MILLION?"
BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: Based on reading the public conversation in this channel it seems the Rape WHistle app came first and today's social network idea is new.
mircea_popescu: ninjashogun i think you perhaps misjudge the quantity of luck involved in facebook becoming facebook.
ninjashogun: It was what was on his mind at the time. What you're missing is that it was on his mind due to a pain point (read news about India).
Dimsler: ninjashogun, yeah right
Dimsler: your scammer pal
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, yes, this is the big defense of trolls. That if it does succeed it's luck, if it fails then obviously it's because it was a dumb idea just as shown by the trolls.
mircea_popescu: Dimsler why so aggro anyway
Dimsler: i dunno
Dimsler: lol
Dimsler: i'm not aggro
ninjashogun: Dimsler, did you catch the fact that I posted my whole convo (where I first met him) with ughlol?
BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: The fact of the matter is that you can not recharacterize old text as a misrepresentation of a bunch of new text, yet to be released
Dimsler: ninjashogun, can you and ughlol panhandle elsewhere?
ninjashogun: Dimsler, I haven't asked for anything.
ninjashogun: I also consider it a terrible suggestion to ask for funding here, so on that I'm agreed.
ninjashogun: I told ughlol as much.
mircea_popescu: depends who.
ughlol: Yes, you did..
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves didn't even ask and ended up with "his" altcoin financed lol
mircea_popescu: much to his chagrin
ughlol: I was very impressed with mircea_popescu's suggestions last time.. thought I would give it a shot.
mircea_popescu: (dja even own any atc tat ?)
ninjashogun: However, we do need to keep a few things in mind. Did you know that VC's (private VC's, managing Limited Partners' cash) get a little bit short of the NASDAQ in returns over the 10-year period of their funds?
mircea_popescu: so i guess now you can appreciate the luck point.
ninjashogun: The net result (the 2 and 20 basis) of VC's working 60-100 hours a week on investment opportunities, proprietary dealflow, networking, term sheets, introductions, everything.... is a return just shy of passive over the counter index investment.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13100 @ 0.00088768 = 11.6286 BTC [+] {2}
benkay: ninjashogun: so why would anyone play a retarded game like that?
ninjashogun: benkay because (I heard this from a guy named rmah, active on #startups) because VC's are WAY better salesmen than you or I will ever be.
ninjashogun: they sell their funds to their LP's (limited partners)
ninjashogun: that's why those people play those "retarded games".
benkay: so you want to run the same scam here?
ninjashogun: But when Mark Zuckerberg was at Harvard and scamming some guy with a map site out of $2000 that he used to partly build Facebook....
ninjashogun: benkay - no, I don't seek investment here
benkay: lottery argument.
benkay: fails.
ninjashogun: and I also think that ughlol is wrong to do so.
ninjashogun: benkay - the lottery argument is that it's a net loss. But the whole of the PE (private equity) market is a net gain (for all participants). It's an inflating pie.
ughlol: I wanted to interact with mircea_popescu ..
ninjashogun: When you buy a lottery ticket you get less than a dollar on each dollar you spend. (on average). But investments aren't the same.
ninjashogun: ughlol, you can interact with him here. But I woudn't solicit funding at this stage.
benkay: kakobrekla: i think tiberius is back
ughlol: I agree.
ughlol: mircea_popescu: you didn't tell me, you said I need to change the idea. Completely? In what way?
mircea_popescu: ughlol do you understand the concept of "rent seeking" ?
ughlol: mircea_popescu: quite honestly, no..
Dimsler: well then learn it
ughlol: googling it
mircea_popescu: yes, well, basically economic activity can be divided in entrepreneurial (which expands the pie) and rent seeking (which redistributes the pie)
ninjashogun: benkay- here's a way to think about the 'lottery argument'. Do you think it would be a net gain or a net loss for the economy if we took IBM's market cap -- $192.19B -- converted it to cash, and then funded about $200k into a graduate student's new "company" (about the money Google was funded with).
mircea_popescu: your idea is principally of the second type, and as such it requires the usual trappings of rent seeking (ie, power).
ninjashogun: And we did that with not just one graduate student (or pair), but we did it with 10,000 of them - all over the world. Per year. For 100 years.
ughlol: mircea_popescu: I agree.. yes.
ninjashogun: After you do that for 100 years, do you think you produce MORE or LESS net value for the economy than IBM's current value?
mircea_popescu: ninjashogun you have your answer ready : vcs do exactly that, and they lag the indexes.
benkay: probably less. most grad students are brainwashed rule-followers.
mircea_popescu: so no, it'd not be a good idea.
ninjashogun: every year 10,000 founders per year seed funded with $200K... for 100 years.
ughlol: mircea_popescu: So I would need to create an economic activity that expands the pie
ninjashogun: mirceau_popescu- not really. VC's make VERY few seed-stage investments. mostly series A.
ughlol: Is that what you're trying to tell me?
mircea_popescu: basically.
ughlol: okay
mircea_popescu: ninjashogun giving money to people for the reason that they're people never ends well.
ninjashogun: but my point is that out of those 10,000 companies per year, most years would have SEVERAL that become billion-dollar companies.
BingoBoingo: benkay: Don't forget the part where generally grad students are physically, emotionally, and morally broken... Or Aspies
mircea_popescu: africa is chiefly a shithole today because the west has been dilligently observing a progreamme of giving them "free" shit.
mircea_popescu: there's nothing more expensive than free.
ninjashogun: Hell, YCombinator funds just 43 startups per year, also has seed funding of only $150K, and has already produced two billion-dollar companies (dropbox and airbnb)
ughlol: mircea_popescu: do you have any suggestions on how I may modify the idea to expand the pie instead of redistribute it?
ninjashogun: and that's with just 43 startups per year.
Dimsler: must support liberia
Dimsler: the real africa americans
mircea_popescu: ughlol notrly. you're not known well enough for me to do anything like that.
Dimsler: you can blame terrorist mandela
ninjashogun: BingoBoingo, that's an important point
ninjashogun: BingoBoingo, but they're often aspies who develop importnat proprietary technology.
Dimsler: for the ongoings in africa
benkay: ninjashogun: the notion that ughlol is founder material falls on its face when he dances like a monkey in here asking "how ams i even make money guys?"
mircea_popescu: stick around, learn, make sense, over time you may become useful.
benkay: but yeah, learning, working, delivering.
benkay: those things matter.
ughlol: mircea_popescu: done. Will do :)
ughlol: and benkay :P that was funny. lol.
benkay: glad you have a sense of humor
benkay: if only ninjashogun were educable
ninjashogun: benkay - as I probably mentioned, ughlol is not "founder material", today, in several senses. He is in India, with a very poor VC network, he is currently a university student who has never run a business, and he does not have a personal network that makes him investable. I don't necessarily suggest investing in him today.
benkay: he might learn a thing or two from you
ughlol: he was just standing up for me benkay.. :)
benkay: hey guys i'm going to copy whatsapp
benkay: can i list on mpex?
ughlol: lol
ughlol slaps benkay with a stinky trout
ughlol: :P
benkay: it's going to be worth 20B 'cause facebook bought the other one for a lot of money
ughlol: LMFAO
ughlol: do i really sound like that?
BingoBoingo: benkay: WhatSnatch, the all vag chat network
benkay: ur all gonna miss out on this one
mircea_popescu: wetsnatch ?
benkay: k boarding plaane
benkay: later all
ninjashogun: ughlol, however notice how many of those questoins are addressed if you juts create a business (with no funding) and start getitng users? Then you are already in some sense an experienced (if first-time)founder, as well as having a real track record of shipping code (sometihng benkay was asking about.)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'snatchat.' 'twatter.'
ughlol: ninjashogun: I agree. I will get to that immediately. :)
ughlol: at least then, Dimsler might think im not just some random scammer
mircea_popescu: snotchat
Dimsler: oh shutup
Dimsler: you're a random scammer
ughlol: they insult, bit at least I can learn something
ninjashogun: ughlol it doesn't matter what Dimsler thinks or (more likely) says
ughlol: I love you too Dimsler
ughlol: true
ninjashogun: ughlol, you can't learn much here
ninjashogun: you can mostly learn to keep things confidential
ughlol: haha
ughlol: true, that
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ninjashogun: For example, notice if instead of your actual idea you had said, you have an idea for a local app based on a new way of connecting people. Then they can't object. They would sound like idiots, because there is no way that EVERY possible local app is a bad idea.
ninjashogun: they don't really have enough information - never give them enough information to act like an idiot.
mircea_popescu: every possible local app is a bad idea.
mircea_popescu: now what ?
ughlol: Hmm, thats true.
ughlol: lol mircea_popescu :P
ughlol: you just have to argue huh?
ninjashogun: now you sound like you're kididng, mirceau :)
ughlol: thats what I like about rich people
ughlol: they just dont give a fuck! :D
ughlol: and thats awesome!
mircea_popescu: druggies are the same way.
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ughlol: lol
mircea_popescu: anyway : there isn't a magical word manipulation thing that makes businesses.
ughlol: mircea_popescu: maybe youre a mix of both?
mircea_popescu: i suspect i'm the only clean one here actually.
ughlol: haha
ughlol: yeah right
only_: mircea not even alcohol?
mircea_popescu: i drink, sure. but that's a drug now ?
mircea_popescu: seems sugar'd have a better shot.
ughlol: rofl
ninjashogun: ughlol, above where you agreed that you should just build it (by yourself, no funding). with a web app it should be possible. thousands of people have done that.
ninjashogun: however it is still hard
ninjashogun: for example (this is laugh-worthy) I have just used vagrant to get a PHP server up. I've never used PHP (used Python a bit, as well as C++ and Perl).
ughlol: Yes, I'll work hard towards developing a prototype and getting users.
ninjashogun: to get from where I am today to an MVP will probably take me a month.
ughlol: maybe then mircea_popescu would be interested! :)
ninjashogun: it's really hard.
ninjashogun: ughlol, doubtful
ughlol: lol
ninjashogun: however as I mentioned to you there are a TON of sources of interest to you once you have users.
ughlol: maybe other investors?
ughlol: Yes, true.
mircea_popescu: ninjashogun a dubious proposition. look at the recent business insider refinance,
mircea_popescu: or look at the sad history of digg
ninjashogun: just a few include: angellist, kickstarter and indiegogo, sell gold or points, b2b deals or referral fees, there is even crypto stock if you want to raise online funds.
ughlol: and mircea_popescu, thanks for pointing out that rent-seeking thing.. I think I understand what you mean. :) I'll work on changing the idea and creating a prototype! <3
ughlol: ah well, need to go now guys
ninjashogun: what do you mean on - business insider refinance?
mircea_popescu: ughlol how old are you anyway ?
ughlol: will visit here more often! :D You guys are stuck up, but real fun! :D
ughlol: mircea_popescu: 19
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ninjashogun: I thought you were about 21
ughlol: I look real old dont I :/
ughlol: damn.
ninjashogun: you should definitely ship anything.
mircea_popescu: eh, whatever you do it's gonna be good for you.
only: much love ughlol, don't give up the good fight
ughlol: thanks only!! :)
ughlol: mircea_popescu: <3 ^_^
only: lol
ughlol: cya later guys
ninjashogun: just remember not to say enough to make your startup more specific than a category, then you can never receive a "no" and will interest people who can work on it or help you with it.
Dimsler: oh yeah
ninjashogun: if they're not interested you can get a firm no right away without also hearing that you're an idiot.
Dimsler: teach him how to be abetter scammer
ughlol: Will definitely keep that in mind ninjashogun! Thanks for the introduction here, and sorry that your rep went down.
ughlol: Dimsler: yeah yeah, blah. I love you too. Happy?
ughlol: Dont get butthurt because I forgot to say I love you.
ninjashogun: Dimsler, I think some aspects of recruiting cofounders, investors, and even customers, have something in common with 'scamming'. So is putting an MVP up.
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ughlol: cya later everybody! :)
ninjashogun: There was a story about an MVP with fake buttons that didn't do anything - they just said "Download as Excel File" for example and see who clikced on it to guage interest.
ughlol: bye ninjashogun, mircea_popescu, Dimsler <3, only!! :)
ninjashogun: that's a "scam" because it exposed functionality that was a lie.
only: cheers mate
ninjashogun: but it helped the startup hone in on what the market wanted.
ninjashogun: Likewise, I've talked with MANY people associated with YCombinator-backed startups (the most famous incubator) and worked for one.
ninjashogun: Many early employees report that founders are full of "half-lies".
ninjashogun: I agree. The job of a founder is to create a half-lie, and the job of the cofounders and early employees is to add the other half.
ninjashogun: + of the investers, and in some cases the customers who are early adopters and willing to put up with buggy-ass #$#@$
ninjashogun: because they believe in the vision.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re: SEC piece: the use of rsa signing is not unknown among u.s. bureaucrats;
asciilifeform: but it is generally limited to DOD desk-flyers, and uses an ms-outlook plugin
asciilifeform: key is kept on a card
asciilifeform: read by winblows driver
mircea_popescu: oh great.
asciilifeform: used to have one myself.
mircea_popescu: ninjashogun what's the problem with being called an idiot iyo ?
asciilifeform: card had mug shot and a serial number (for being taken prisoner, among other things! because contractors can also star in beheading vids.)
mircea_popescu: anyway, this vapid "half lie" model, and all the cruddy webapps/mobile apps stuff has very little life left in it, even in the fiat world.
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, well the main problem is that you need to reserve your hardest edge for when you need it the most. I've spend very long hours discussing very deep technical points without calling something "idiotic". It can be broken, wrong, unexpected, totally incompatible, etc. Those words are more specific.
mircea_popescu: this isn't the fiat world.
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, and more importantly those words allow the problem to be fixed.
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, my 'half-lie' model applies to everything that is new and being built.
ThickAsThieves: i did end up with some with some ATC, but haven't had the chance to keep up with it. it seems without tender loving care it cannot thrive.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what they use that as a sort of cardano ?
ninjashogun: There are a TON of errors that are always hidden and swept under the rug.
mircea_popescu: ninjashogun no , it does not. it has nothing to do with anything other than the particular way the usg implements welfare for a certain subset of the youth population.
ninjashogun: The image of a startup is like a duck -calm above the water but paddling like hell underneath.
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, sorry what are you talking about not working?
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves so you're basically like thickoshi... abandoned it ?
mircea_popescu: ninjashogun none of the examples you cut out of the real world and pasted onto your model as "eventual upper bound results" have anything to do with the model itself.
BingoBoingo: ThickAsThieves: Mabe try loving it again?
ThickAsThieves: i'm more likely to "
ThickAsThieves: come bacl"
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, could you be more specific please!
ThickAsThieves: probably
mircea_popescu: the vc circus as you represent it has not produced facebook, has not produced google, will never produce anything.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i think it takes hash of something and signs it (with embedded key) then shits it out
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, I'm sorry you are factually mistaken.
asciilifeform: api is half-documented somewhere
mircea_popescu: well then we can end this conversation right here
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asciilifeform: a little like the 'opengpgsmartcard' but more winblowsy
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, let's walk through it. If Facebook had been the same in every way, except Mark Zuckerberg was transplanted to be an Oxford student instead (same skills, same drive, same ideas) - what would have happened?
ThickAsThieves: if i had access to reliable and worthy crypto developers i'd have probably spat out several companies and things by now
mircea_popescu: ninjashogun counterfactuals are good for reddit masturbation. this isn't a good venue for it.
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, the ansewr is very simple. he would not have gotten an investment or interest from peter thiel. Or any VC. And nobody outside of 10,000 people would know the word "facebook".
ThickAsThieves: problem is i'm not ready to commit to being a "CEO" of anything
ninjashogun: It shows you very clearly the role that VC money plays.
mircea_popescu: and oyu know this because why
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asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in case this isn't obvious, it is trivial to patch a chump's ms-outlook to color a mal-signed message the requisite colour.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform wait but isn't that illegal ?!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it was 'pki' crapola all the way down
ThickAsThieves: well that's *one* of my problems...
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, I've lived in Boston, New York, San Francisco, Paris, Berlin (a bit) as well as some Eastern European cities. I've been interested in startups in all of them, have worked for one in the first dot-com bubble in the 90's. I can tell the difference between different climates and how people behave in them.
asciilifeform: thing worked exactly the way alert reader would expect it to.
mircea_popescu: you don't understand dood, i read in the guardian that the us caught a bunch of russian spies by displaying a dazzling array of technical superiority.
asciilifeform: rusty staples?
mircea_popescu: ninjashogun or so you think.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform remember the hot ukrainian chick ? anna whatever ?
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, let me put it to you like this. If ughlol were farther along, and actually already convinced 10 engineers at his university to be 'cofounders' for equity totalling 5%, 95% to him (which would show GREAT founder skill) and got some traction. HIs company would still probably die, and those 10 people would leave. Because he is in India.
mircea_popescu: you know what a non sequitur is ?
ninjashogun: Now you repeat hte same thing in Cal Tech and he has a term sheet for $1M at $3M valuation within 3 weeks of launch.
ninjashogun: and his company may OR MAY NOT die. But if it takes off, it's (in part) due to investor sentiment.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah them
ninjashogun: To use another example. Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak built what turned out to be $500B company in very large part on the investment climate in the area.
ninjashogun: if they were two kids doing hte same thing in just about any part of the world, they would have nothing 30 years later.
mircea_popescu: jesus god.
mircea_popescu: dude, you know like a thin sliver of the pudding top.
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, yes, I know this.
ninjashogun: I know it from trying to build a hardware business, and suddenly seeing that none of that sliver is interested.
mircea_popescu: well so then stop hopping up and down on it
mircea_popescu: it's damned thin
asciilifeform: hasty pudding, no less.
mircea_popescu: here's a little known anecodte, kinda instructive as to the sort of guy jobs was :
asciilifeform: (for many years i thought 'making hasty pudding' meant 'shitting one's pants.')
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, in a lot of ways it's enshrined into the way MANY people think. Some of it is legal (only accredited investors can be targeted; accredited investors display groupthink). Other parts of it are cultural - a lot of people just feel the same way.
mircea_popescu: actually look at that, it's on wikipedia.
ozbot: Breakout (video game) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
mircea_popescu: grep for bushnell offered
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ninjashogun: is this about the money jobs didn't share?
mircea_popescu: no, it's about wozniak working his ass straight for 700 bucks, over 4 days.
mircea_popescu: that comes down to... 7 dollars an hour.
mircea_popescu: now tell me again about "the environment"
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, the way I interpret that is that Steve Jobs used the $5000 to start Apple and make his friend a billionaire.
mircea_popescu: woz was never a billionaire.
ninjashogun: fine, a $100Millionaire
ninjashogun: More to the point - for our purposes - you would not have lent the young Steve Jobs $5000 yourself, even if he had to repay 10x the amount, 50x the amount, 100x the amount, ore ven 500x the amount (at any point in the future) All of which would have been in his power.
ninjashogun: instead, he had to scam his friend for it. Just like Zuckerberg had to scam some map guy out of $2000.
asciilifeform: 'had to' ? jean valjean ?
ninjashogun: steve jobs could have borrowed $5000 from you and relent 500x as much. But you wouldn't have been interested. That is $2.5M.
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, yes, "had to"
mircea_popescu: you're on to creating counterfactuals about me now ?!
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mircea_popescu: what's this, risk taking for fun and profit
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, fine. Lend me $17,000 now and at some point in my career I will repay you 500x (8.5M). I am 30 now and it has to be in the next 30 years.
mircea_popescu: so you're zuck now ?!
ninjashogun: I don't have to be zuck to repay $8.5M. Tens of thousands of people can do it, not just a few hundred billionaires.
BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: is roughly a pound of flesh, with reasonable blood loss acceptable security?
mircea_popescu: i wish us schools went back to teaching logic and shit instead of all this self esteem and marketing bs they do
asciilifeform: ninjashogun: get a credit card?
only: lol
asciilifeform: ninjashogun: sell motorcycle?
asciilifeform: 17k isn't a fortune
ninjashogun: I don't htink $8.5M is a fortune. if I had that in cash today I wouldn't sit on it, I would do further startups.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: One problem is mainstreaming, all the US students get exposed to the special ed curriculum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainstreaming_%28education%29
asciilifeform: ninjashogun: you said you wanted 17k
ninjashogun: That doesn't mean I consider it a lot of money.
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asciilifeform: ninjashogun: if you know how to turn it into 8.5M, then borrow it from whoever
asciilifeform: the local mob, if you must
mircea_popescu: "We survive on donations averaging about 50 lei. Now is the time we ask. If everyone reading this right now gave 25 lei, our fundraiser would be done within an hour."
mircea_popescu: fuckwits
mircea_popescu: they can harp about obscure currency nobody heard about, they still won't bow to bitcoin
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I don't know how to turn it into $8.5M. If I did I wouldn't be talking about the next 40 years, would I?
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, likewise steve jobs did not know how to make a $500B company when he was 25.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27200 @ 0.00088165 = 23.9809 BTC [-] {3}
ninjashogun: sorry, next 30 years ;-)
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo "Access to a special education classroom, often called a "self-contained classroom or resource room", is valuable to the student with a disability."
mircea_popescu: so if it's valuable to X, why should Y pay for it ?
mircea_popescu: how great is this, they've invented the free lunch (again)
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I am not interested in being involved with the local mob. You seem to consider this a short-term thing, but that's not at all what I stated, is it?
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, "then borrow it from whoever". Funny how that goes, isn't it? That loan is how I came into this channel. It doesn't work like that.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Cause self esteem. Seriously this shit started in the 1980's
asciilifeform: ninjashogun: if you live in usa, just about any bank will give you a credit card good for $20K+
asciilifeform: but, you gotta pay it back
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i think you have to have a residence and income
asciilifeform: am i mistaken in my understanding that you don't like the 'paying back' part ?
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I'm from the USA but at the moment I'm not living there, I've been working on my proprietary hardware startup in a much lower-income country.
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, yes, you are quite mistaken in your understanding that I don't like the paying back part.
asciilifeform: ninjashogun: then why not go to a bank?
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, because I don't have assets?
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, because I've been working on my startup for no salary?
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, because banks don't consider incorporated companies with assigned intellectual property to be meaningful collateral?
asciilifeform: ninjashogun: if you take some employment (even temporarily) bank will lend you $.
ninjashogun: I don't have the time to take employment, even temporarily. Two months ago I was invited to give a demo with the working prototype as part of closing a $150K investment. I need to finish it.
asciilifeform: i'm not the least bit of 'rockefeller' but i shred & throw out 3-4 unsolicited 'platinum' cards in the snailmail every week or so
asciilifeform: they try to shove these things down your throat here
ninjashogun: More to the point, at this point taking the employment you talk of would entail abandoning my team here, all of my work and living arrangements (about $150/month burn rate), as well as somehow moving to an expensive city and working full time there. My startup would cease to exist.
asciilifeform: these people salivate, they dream, of lending money
asciilifeform: ninjashogun: take one of your loyal men and order him to do it, then
mircea_popescu: 150/month living arrangements ?!
mircea_popescu: that's a very small amount of harem right htere.
dub: its funny I dont get unsolicetd cards from my primary bank anymore
dub: after my house was burgled and an unopened one was used to defraud them :)
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, given my high-risk profile what APR would you (personally) extend me on between $7K-$22.5K (amount I take depends on APR) with no collateral except a registered Delaware C-Corp I'm currently full owner of (100%) going to 90% after an investment clears that I've committed to - the company has intellectual property including a patent that is pending and trademark that has been assigned, as well the equipment I
ninjashogun: would spend most of the money on can also become collateral.
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asciilifeform: ninjashogun: around here, you only need collateral in the usual sense for a cash loan, but not for 'revolving credit'
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, yes, rent in a very small room in a very large shared apartment, is $111 (after some clever negotiation from me based on how infrequently the room could be rented out due to its size). This includes all eelectricity bills, the Internet (that I'm using now) hot water, gas, utilities.
asciilifeform: for the latter, you just need a human with some proof of income
mircea_popescu: incredible.
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I have no proof of income due to the fact that I have been working without pay for my startups (startup at the moment)
ninjashogun: sorry, I meant to write: without pay for my startup (and now startups) - as I started working on the jobs site one after spending more than a month trying to collect the loan I closed
asciilifeform: ninjashogun: so you built the mexican factory prior to, rather than after, securing funding. this is not a fatal mistake
mircea_popescu: well once your hardwar estart-up succeeds this will be pretty epic material.
asciilifeform: just take one of the loyal men and order him to get temporary job and borrow.
ninjashogun: I was extended this loan (basically) we did up paperwork for it and then I've been trying to collect it for over 5 weeks without luck. I can't get back in contact wiht the person (after exchanging many forms of contact). so so much after how easy it is to get a loan.
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, sorry - I don't get your analogy?
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ninjashogun: asciilifeform, oh, you liken my arrangement here to a mexican factory? Well the problem with that is that this is where the development was being done, not production. We ahve a manufacturing partner lined up actually, production will be in China.
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I had to make an unbelievable amount of progress to get offered a seed round on a hardware project that has not yet been completed and has no traction.
asciilifeform: ninjashogun: traditionally, one first secures capital and only then gets on the hook for business obligations (employees, factory floor, etc.)
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, at this point I need the loan in order to get to the stage of prototype that the investors need to test (as part of their due dilligence also) and see in close to the final form factor.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 37 @ 0.0036944 = 0.1367 BTC [+] {4}
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I know how one "traditionally" secures capital, but it is usually against assets such as a house, etc.
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, in startups, on the other hand, it's usual to build an MVP using processes that don't scale, and without spending much money, until financing is secured.
asciilifeform: ninjashogun: if i were anyone else, i'd swallow this. but i'm doing much the same thing you said you did (hardware startup) but without passing begging hat
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 84 @ 0.00373263 = 0.3135 BTC [+] {2}
ozbot: S.NSA pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, did you already discuss a $7M investment, implying a valuaiton of $15M, with a VC who has recently made a $400M exit in another consumer hardware company?
asciilifeform: ninjashogun: i know what you'll answer: 'having a day job sucks.' and sure. but then you can pay for hardware, prototype runs, etc. without begging
asciilifeform: ninjashogun: nope. and i'm not a baron, duke, anything, no titles of nobility
asciilifeform: and implied values thereof
ninjashogun: I don't mean to say anything about hte level of ambition you have in your hardware startup but usually a certified lab for developing ours costs $60K, which I am going to do on about $8K in used eBay equipment.
ninjashogun: (this is certified 2.4 ghz wireless equipment, this portion)
ninjashogun: Note that the wireless portion doesn't exist at all. I don't even have a specan (spectrum analyzer). The only eqiupment I developed is with large arduinos, as well as mockups of what it could look like.
asciilifeform: sometimes you just can't play. i, for instance, might like to start a pharma company, but i checked my sofa cushions and there is not $1B to be found therein
asciilifeform: (which local government requires for clinical trials)
ninjashogun: But you can't show an investor a mockup, and a bundle of wires, and say, imagine if the latter looked like the former!
asciilifeform: so i didn't start a pharma co.
asciilifeform: imagine that
asciilifeform: ninjashogun: try 'gold phoenix ltd.' (china) for prototypes.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i thought you used to be a duke
asciilifeform: very reasonably priced and respected
asciilifeform: ahahaha
mircea_popescu: how's the esteemed mr yarvin these days ?
mircea_popescu: still leaking ?
asciilifeform: (for those not in the know: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1352)
asciilifeform: seems like it.
asciilifeform: like a sieve.
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, again, this is why I mention that Steve Jobs (a kid who stole $5000 from his best and only friend to start Apple), Mark Zuckerberg (a guy who scammed a map website guy out of $2000 to start facebook), and Larry Page (a poor grad student who had to give $50B away in equity to get an immigrant to code up his Larry Page Rank), also did not have the means to play.They couldn't play. They did anyway.
mircea_popescu: maybe we should have a bet : katecraig wood delivers before yarvin's submarine plane stops leaking.
mircea_popescu: ninjashogun you know what the selection fallacy is ?
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, fine. AirBNB had to sell Cereal. Yes Cereal. To fund their idea of a C2C ebay of Rentals.
mircea_popescu: no listen.
mircea_popescu: you only know the names of these dudes because you know the names of these dudes.
ozbot: Obama O's: Hope in every bowl
ninjashogun: that's what they sold
mircea_popescu: you don't know the names of all the dudes that you don't know the names of.
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, so how would I learn from them? What use are they to me?
mircea_popescu: well, they'd be the use to you that they'd give you a useful picture of the world.
asciilifeform: day 1: a certain mr. smith wins lottery, $100M, lights $100 with $100 full of cocaine, on tv. day 2: stinking bum knocks on yer door - 'lend me $5.' you: 'why should i lend to a stinking bum?' bum: 'if i'd had $5, i could've won just like smith'
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, also, if my investors don't know of them, i can't leverage their background to get an investment, either.
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mircea_popescu: as it is you're proceeding on a very poor sample
mircea_popescu: generally, the prisons are full of people who perceived they can't afford to play their chosen game and decided to try and play anyway.
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, I think your model is a very, very fair one under normal circumstances. (Such as the Efficient Market Hypothesis.) However, I have very deep theoretical proof that your model is mistaken, and that these founders were in fact leveraging the same opportunity inefficiency that I am.
mircea_popescu: well, not a bad way to spend a life.
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, I don't know about the criminals, generally they're not very smart. But I do know about founders and creating something.
asciilifeform: ninjashogun: so what are you wasting time with us for? go rob someone
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I was actually responding to the earlier statement (day 1: ...lottery) with my statement about his model being wrong.
ninjashogun: The lottery model of startups is simply mistaken and wrong.
ninjashogun: You can know this for a fact ,because
mircea_popescu: and evil.
ninjashogun: I don't know if it's evil or not but it's factually mistaken.
asciilifeform: the lottery model applies when you are (from our point of view) a total wildcard.
BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: That doesn't mean you can't grab a tire iron and supply a pawn shop with tvs until your enterprize is "funded"
mircea_popescu: technically speaking the cards in the deck are a deterministic machine
mircea_popescu: so not really any sort of lottery.
asciilifeform: it's a lottery to the fellow who doesn't know the rng seed.
ninjashogun: You can convince yourself of this fact by being nearly 100% sure that more than $190B in wealth would be created if 10,000 qualified engineering and bioscience etc grad student founders were funded at $200K each for 100 years. It's not a lottery - it's just some unusual percentages.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i wonder why not more people starting businesses from inside a us prison
mircea_popescu: they get free food and net access afaik
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, the answer is that they do not have the right socioeconomic perspective.
mircea_popescu: what's a socioeconomic perspective
asciilifeform: afaik the u.s. socialist party was run from inside of a jail for a while.
asciilifeform: so for certain values of 'business' - it wurks.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Net access not so much, but... mail and telephones were good enough for IBM
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, it's the same reason (to be honest) that very few Romanians found startups and that you would have had far more trouble finidng cofounders if you didnt' want to do it alone, than you would have in (for example), Berlin, Rome, Brussels, London, Paris, Tokyo, etc.....
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i thought they had interwebs too, no ?
ninjashogun: it's a cultural issue.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Maybe in limited cases, but The US isn't quite Norway or Denmark
asciilifeform: i'd venture to guess that there are many romanian startups. just not registered officially.
asciilifeform: (with bureaucrats)
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, that is part of what I mean
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, can you imagine doing due dilligence on a company that isn't even registered? That means only best friends can invest. Your pool of potential investors is literally limited to 7-20 people, no matter who you are in Romania. (Because that's how many people you trust through highschool.)
ninjashogun: I'm generalizing, but only a little bit.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 106 @ 0.00374 = 0.3964 BTC [+]
ninjashogun: It's what was different about Palo Alto, for example.
mircea_popescu: i dunno, rav for instance is a romanian startup
mircea_popescu: so is gecad
mircea_popescu: and a bunch of other stuff.
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, I don't mean to pick on Romania. For many of my examples I'm really thinking of Hungary, and using it as an analogy.
asciilifeform: ninjashogun: did i just fall through time warp? 'mpex' not built yet?
mircea_popescu: ungary is a tiny country.
ninjashogun: The question isn't whether it was built - but how many Romanian cofounders or investors were on board?
ninjashogun: romania has 21M people in it, Ungary has 10M
mircea_popescu: doesn't seem likely you'll ever know that.
ninjashogun: so about half the size by population
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, well I could just ask you. Not really that interested.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29820 @ 0.00088581 = 26.4149 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: every country ends up doing something. while hungary owned porn romania owned computers.
mircea_popescu: each his own
mircea_popescu: but i know plenty of hungarian folk that really killed it in the 90s
ninjashogun: mostly on state privatization though no?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5282 @ 0.00088895 = 4.6954 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: no, on porn.
ninjashogun: The ones I know that made a killing did so by immigrating to the United States :)
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, what does your hardware startup do?
ninjashogun: or what are you building?
asciilifeform: ninjashogun: a small gizmo, described here: http://trilema.com/snsa-first-product-the-cardano
asciilifeform: ninjashogun: it's on mp's site, he's co-author
ninjashogun: I'm reading that page
mircea_popescu: where did pankkake disappear to anyway
ninjashogun: that first paragraph isa joke right? ("what's the idea")? like it's pseudo-lofty, right?
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: That's a very good question
ninjashogun: anyway it's a good intro :)
mircea_popescu: ninjashogun people who don't have to supervise their own humours to please a third party behave differently than the us norm.
asciilifeform: ninjashogun: not joke
ninjashogun: It's an intersting introduction. In the end I like it :)
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i recall he was prepping for some surgery i hope they didn't end up cutting the wrong part.
ninjashogun: I just wasn't sure if the tone is somewhat pseudo- or ironic, or it's meant to be read "straight"
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: That would be a terrible shame
asciilifeform: well, that's how Korolev died
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform did i actually write that ?!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the intro thing? one of us did
asciilifeform: forget which
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mircea_popescu: half why i even keep that blog, if i didn't write the shit up i'd end up forgetting it all.
asciilifeform: used to just piss thing out into emacs orgmode but it helps when people harangue you to remember shit.
ninjashogun: So, I like the idea very much.
ninjashogun: That you've put here.
ozbot: Everything you know about Ukraine is wrong | PandoDaily
mircea_popescu: this is like remarkably good.
mircea_popescu: im starting to like pando
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I have a suggestion for your next version. My suggestion is that the air gap with the computer be maintained, by running (a different brick) that is a wireless access point. You can connect to its wifi and use Firefox on localhost to upload and sign or upload and encrypt/decrypt files, which it would then serve back. This requires a computer with access to WIFI. However, I think in general a network stack
ninjashogun: is more resilient than a USB stack against, for example, man in the middle attacks (if someone knows that you will use that usb drive they could put a fake USB controller in that MITM attacks it.
ninjashogun: this suggestion isn't for the current version, which as a piece of hardware is great.
asciilifeform: 'he crowds in Kiev, which can swell up to a million on a good day and are always in the hundreds of thousands, are there out of their own homegrown sense of outrage, not because some State Department bureaucrats willed them there' << author knows, or not, what it costs to feed & shovel shit for 1M-strong crowd ?
asciilifeform: ninjashogun: wifi. with ssl, right. troll much ?
ninjashogun: it would also save a connect and disconnect. And can be done unobtrusively at a computer, without having to insert a USB stick.
ninjashogun: it could also come iwth storage, so that it could be used as a "wireless storage device" (thru the browser). rather than have to plug and unplug a usb stick.
asciilifeform: trolling or total ignorance of the engineering realities. which?
mircea_popescu: to further save costs, the entire thing could be done over the web, as an app
mircea_popescu: with the dongle as a central server
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, let me think about this.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform have an aspirin.
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, Why not? assume that the other end is in the person's home. Then the wireless key is truly unusable.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'watch this video of Yanukovych’s snipers murdering unarmed protesters and tell me who the real fascists' << lol
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, in fact it could be set to ONLY sign/encrypt/decrypt the next 1 message or 2 messages. So that it can't be stolen off someone's body, as it's in theri home and will only sign the next 2 things.
ninjashogun: I think this would be an interesting application for using one's private key without having it in one's possession.
mircea_popescu: definitely.
mircea_popescu: could even be an app
ninjashogun: :) I undrestand what you're doing with the USB thing. However, I, personally, do not consider USB stacks to be very secure.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform btw, did you vote ? :p
mircea_popescu: but srsly, what are your politics on the matter ?
ninjashogun: I think there are a lot of unknowns over USB and it is a frequently underestimated attack vector, with very little security research being done.
asciilifeform: 22 yrs. in mordor
mircea_popescu: yes, there was a referendum neh ?
diametric: ninjashogun: but you do configure wifi secure? lol..
diametric: consider even.
ninjashogun: I think wifi security has more attention paid to it, yes. Even when it's broken. Many eyes make security deeper.
asciilifeform: me mom & pop voted 'nay' in ua indep. referendum in '91.
asciilifeform: then we got on the plane.
mircea_popescu: how did that split ? 15/85 ?
ninjashogun: But this is not to detract from what you've done, asciilifeform (and mircea_popescu ?) Overall the device is a VERY good step.
ninjashogun: and I like the basic idea of not having your key on another PC.
asciilifeform: 92+ 'yay'
BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: Doesn't Wifi violate the intent of an airgap even if there is "air" involved
ninjashogun: BingoBoingo - yes, absolutely.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so what was so bad about independence ? (trying to educate myself)
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: our friend is either trolling - or slept in a cave for years
ninjashogun: BingoBoingo - you are right and for this reason I probably shouldn't ahve called it an "air" gap.
ninjashogun: BingoBoingo, however, it is absolutely doubtless that wifi protocols get roughly 100x as much security research as the usb protocol does.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: decolonialization is fun for some people, less for others.
BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: I mean why not some sort of cable that might only incidentally happen to function as an antenna, for which shielding is possibly. WHy demand an active antenna throwing your bits around?
ninjashogun: BingoBoingo, also, in my personal opinion as a security observer, a man in the middle attack with a PC (or laptop) being opened, and a second usb host being inserted between the real USB and the device, whose purpose is to subtlely alter what is being signed, is a very real risk.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: there is a version of the apparatus (exists on my desk only, for foreseeable future) with no cables. slide cards in/out.
ninjashogun: BingoBoingo, since this device as described does NOT retain the signed document in memory, it is therefore signing something without knowing what it is, if it has been transferred between the PC and storage medium.
ninjashogun: I mean it retains no knowledge of what it signed. The person can't go home and check everything they've signed.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: but in that version, you lose the card crypto
ninjashogun: What changes with Wifi? Well, you can still have a man in the middle, but it would be much more prohibitive. It would need a complete access point that connects to the device masquarading as the computer, while exposing itself to the computer and hiding the true signal from the computer. It's possible, but more difficult. And in the end the computer can do a complete secure session (in javascript with the browser) compl
ninjashogun: etely defeating the MITM.
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asciilifeform: ninjashogun: wifi mitm takes all of five minutes to set up.
asciilifeform: try it personally
asciilifeform: don't take my word for it
BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: My concern with WiFi is packet capture.
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, packet capture is not a concern because you can establish a higher secure channel from Firefox on the computer all the way to the final device. This is possible because hte device can have a known fingerprint.
ninjashogun: and it doesn't matter if there are devices in the way.
diametric: mircea_popescu: your email exchange with the "SEC" is fantastic.
ninjashogun: However, the current version transfers files in the plain over the USB protocol. it is 100% vulnerable to a USB mitm - which could probably be made so small that it almost fits in a usb drive.
dignork: ninjashogun, your Firefox will trust almost any certificate, unless you'd verify it manually
mircea_popescu: diametric why so ?
asciilifeform: ninjashogun: suggested experiment. take a radio transmitter (a household walkie-talkie will do) and transmit, with a computer sitting nearby.
asciilifeform: watch the output with a receiver, see the little fuzz on the wave?
asciilifeform: our friends at ft. meade call this 'NONSTOP'
asciilifeform: (not to be confused with 'TEMPEST')
diametric: mircea_popescu: I enjoy your style of writing, and I wonder if she was prepared for that kind of response. I'm highly interested to see if anything else comes of it
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, ....?
mircea_popescu: she was utterly unprepared, from what i hear.
mircea_popescu: the entire social stack was unprepared.
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, okay.
asciilifeform: i wish i had the energy to explain here, for stone age man, how a radio works
mircea_popescu: apparently somehow they still don't see me coming, it's fascinating.
asciilifeform: but essence is: there is an amplifier. it takes a small signal, uses it to modulate a carrier wave
ninjashogun: dignork, it doesn't matter who firefox trusts. You can run a complete tunnel using javascript all the way to the final end-point. The whole point of PKI is that it doesn't matter who sniffs packets.
BingoBoingo: I wonder how Many interns have been charged with reading trilema nao.
mircea_popescu: a javascript pki tunnel
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I get your point.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo bout a dozen in the bucharest residentura.
ninjashogun: it makes sense to me. You can always assume any computer will have javascript, and a wifi.
ninjashogun: the wifi connects either a) to your device or b) to a MITM that connects to your device
asciilifeform: ;;google NONSTOP TEMPEST
gribble: An Introduction to TEMPEST - SANS Institute: <http://www.sans.org/reading-room/whitepapers/privacy/introduction-tempest_981>; NSA TEMPEST Documents - Cryptome: <http://www.cryptome.org/nsa-tempest.htm>; NACSEM 5112 NONSTOP Evaluation Techniques - Cryptome: <http://cryptome.org/nacsem-5112.htm>
dignork: ninjashogun, your javascript is downloaded by firefox, from forgeable location ... p0wned
ninjashogun: dignork - hmmm.. Well, on Mac and Linux you could do an md5sum or sha1sum on the javascript before you run it. On Windows you can only use a custom certificate, signed by yourself, and know the issuer.
asciilifeform: ninjashogun: cardano is optionally usable inside a faraday cage. put that in your pipe & smoke.
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ninjashogun: asciilifeform, this is not to take anything away from cardano - I like it.
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I was just suggesting some directions for version 2 or 3.
ninjashogun: (my hardware has future versions as well, that we haven't done any work toward)
asciilifeform: 'browser'? 'javascript'? 'ssl'? no thanks
asciilifeform: i don't have anything against a man who eats turd. but i will eat, and serve my friends, sausage. not turd.
asciilifeform: and to me they are not the least bit similar.
ninjashogun: Overall I would suggest you consider it due to the amount of security attention that 1) the WIFI stack 2) browser communications, have received. You can leverage that.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: ninjashogun: remember to ground the faraday cage
mircea_popescu: yeah, leverage.
mircea_popescu: leveraged security is like pretty cool
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HMF] 100 @ 0.0160071 = 1.6007 BTC [-] {6}
ninjashogun: what, do you not like the word?
BingoBoingo: Like leveraged gambling... Until they come for your kneecaps
mircea_popescu: i despise the entire thinking process that got you there.
ninjashogun: Fine, you can take advantage of that; you can make us of it; you can profit from it; you can be an indirect beneficiary of it; you can depend on it; you can rely on it; you can take it for granted
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo, mircea_popescu - be so kind as to take care of our dear guest. i'ma lie down now.
ninjashogun: make use of*
mircea_popescu: i tihnk it's been enough for a day tbh.
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, before you go -
ninjashogun: what is that APR?
ninjashogun: on the $7-$22.5K?
asciilifeform: in gringolandia, 20% mebbe.
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, if I can have up to a 3 year grace period I would accept that with the full $22.5K.
BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: Have you considered that rather than leveraging a complex behemoth of other people's work which was produced with the potential of malice towards your intended cause, you could just make something simpler.
ninjashogun: BingoBoingo - I always consider the simplest hting that could possibly work.
BingoBoingo: Wifi and browsers are never the simplest things
ninjashogun: I disagree, I think firefox running javascript is one of the simplest things to develop and target 100% of PC's with. Also it would work on some tablets, which have no USB subcomponent at all, but do have copy and paste and wifi connections.
BingoBoingo: For all of the "work" on Wifi and browser security neither is particularly secure
ozbot: Mozilla Firefox is exploited four times at HP's Pwn2own hacking contest- The Inquirer
ninjashogun: on an iPad and iPhone, you can copy the text, connect to the brick's wifi, paste it, copy the result, and then reconnect to your normal wifi. These things don't have a USB stack at all.
BingoBoingo: Sure, but your wifi broadcast traves how far from its point of origin?
ninjashogun: Again, it doesn't matter if you reimplement PKI over javascript.
BingoBoingo: Then your browser can scarcely sandbox javascript?
ninjashogun: Better than it can a usb subsystem, yes.
ninjashogun: I don't think packet sniffing is a problem if you tunnel over it.
ninjashogun: Again, none of this is to take away from the design as I've already read about it here. I like it a lot.
dignork: ninjashogun, alternatively, you could tunnel over usb
ninjashogun: dignork - yes, it would also be a good idea.
ninjashogun: dignork - but then they could no longer treat it as a mass-storage device.
BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: I'm not defending his design. I'm am suggesting your "improvements" are abominable
BingoBoingo: Honestly the improvement from USB would probably be RS-232
ninjashogun: BingoBoingo - I learned of this literally 20 minutes ago. My improvements already have something that can at least theoretically work with an iPad and iPhone, which loads of people do their surfing on in the evening, and certainly don't want to keep keys on.
ninjashogun: you're on the couch on your iPad, want to sign something an email it. Are you going to keep your key on your iPad?
BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: Are you familiar with the actual concept of an airgap.
ninjashogun: BingoBoingo, Yes, I am. I realize this is not an airgap.
ozbot: How to airgap. A practical guide. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
BingoBoingo: It isn't just about the definition of an airgap, but of the motivations behind it as well that make radio the wrong medium for connecting to such boxes
asciilifeform: ok i'm back, because this is just too precious.
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asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: you'll be happy to learn that the box has rs232 now. (ttl level voltage)
BingoBoingo: Sweet!
BingoBoingo: I have a reason to get another SE/30
ninjashogun: on http://trilema.com/2013/how-to-airgap-a-practical-guide/ - I would also suggest running several copies of hte same hardware next to each other. If they're all doing something, how is someone going to know which is the one that is of interest. This can even subvert someone physically ocming in and using it in your absence.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: still gotta yank cables before rsa rom receives power though.
ninjashogun: also the EM radiation might be similar when coming off of several similar computers.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: That's fine.
BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: Or just blast the area with cheap crt tv's playing reality shows, sound off.
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, by the way don't let the haters take anyting away. All of my suggestoin are at a single layer - and do not in ANY way impact the basic idea you've come up with with mircea_popescu --- which is a VERY good one. I don't really add anything in my suggestoins - it is the same design. You should patent it.
asciilifeform: ninjashogun: if you did not know the fact that a radio transmitter radiates not only what you want, but the state of nearby circuit, you know now.
asciilifeform: this was a carefully kept secret for decades (if only from american public) so there is no shame in not knowing
ninjashogun: the basic thing that you came up with is an escrowed key service embodied in a physical device that does not disclose the key, but uses it and discloses the result. This is a very good invention.
ninjashogun: asciilifeform - how could it be kept from the public? Wouldn't every electrical engineer with a scope see it?
asciilifeform: perhaps Semmelweis should have patented doctor washing hands.
BingoBoingo: It's probably not too late for that
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 50 @ 0.0038 = 0.19 BTC [+]
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, the fact is, if you want to get this into millions of people's hands you will have to invest half a million in research and manufacturing. it could be the only secure device in their whole household (if they run windows.)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform actually dr semmelweis is a major moment in the cultural history of medicine
asciilifeform: 'U.S. Patent XXXXXXX: Method of preventing cadaverous poisoning using liquid dihydrogen monoxide.'
mircea_popescu: when otherwise nice, smart guys realised that they had literally killed hundreds of women
asciilifeform: i mentioned S for a reason.
mircea_popescu: a major cultural shock, that.
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, if you have to compete with Kingston copying your idea then you are dead in the water. You can't even make it to market.
ninjashogun: maybe 20 years is too long for a patent to be valid - then consider donating it after 3 years or 7 years. You can assign it to a protective Open Source patent fund.
BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: I think the point of the Cardano is it serves people who can not even entirely trust the security of *nix systems
ninjashogun: BingoBoingo, I like it. It's also something you can unobtrusively carry around.
BingoBoingo: Generally that distrust is the sort that comes from an abundance rather than a dearth of knowledge
mircea_popescu: "it made me so miserable that life seemed worthless" and so on
asciilifeform: if kingston, ibm, fuck, elektronika, were physically capable of building cardano, you would already have one.
ninjashogun: BingoBoingo - in the eventual wifi version, no one would have to know that you even use it. if being surveilled by site, it wouldn't be obvious that it's on your person. (or whether it is).
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, that's not true. They don't like to innovate.
asciilifeform: there is an engineering term, 'ullage'
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, but they do love to use other people's innovations.
asciilifeform: do you know it?
ninjashogun: me? no.
asciilifeform: it's the key ingredient in hydrogen bomb, for instance.
asciilifeform: it means, roughly, 'emptiness'
asciilifeform: a correctly-shaped absence of something.
dignork: ninjashogun, take RasPI, hook up wifi dongle and build one, maybe someone will buy, why arguing?
bitcoinpete: All done mircea_popescu
ninjashogun: dignork - you misinterpret my tone if you think I'm arguing. I like the idea of the Cardano very much, I think it's a genuine, useful, good, and non-obvious innovation, and I encourage asciilifeform in building it and getting it to market.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 10 @ 0.06894998 = 0.6895 BTC [+] {2}
ozbot: Mircea Popescu: “The SEC Won’t Let Me Be.” Or, “I’ve Been Expecting You.” | When Bitcoin
asciilifeform: required reading:
ozbot: Loper OS » Don’t Blame the Mice.
asciilifeform: if you could take raspi or whatever, remove the mystery meat, add analogue rng - you would not need cardano.
ninjashogun: dignork - further I don't have any problem with it in the current form. I think asciilifeform should patent it. I also suggest he work on just one layer of the solution, which is the physical transport layer, and consider bluetooth or wifi.
asciilifeform: but if you take raspi, or pc on your desk, or whatnot, and remove the diseased meat, you will have... an empty crate.
mircea_popescu: bitcoinpete now the work of submitting to hn and the smokinggun and so on begins :D
ninjashogun: dignork, but for the next version.
ninjashogun: dignork, after selling thousands of this one :)
asciilifeform: ninjashogun: you were told about 'nonstop' and continue to suggest radio transmitters. inattention, or willful ignorance ?
asciilifeform: which is it
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I told you? You can consider the link totally insecure and still use it....?
asciilifeform: radio carries bits from nearby wires. do i have to draw a picture, or what ?
dignork: ninjashogun, you missed the point, transmission creates side-channel leak
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, the way a tunnelled layer works, is it's OK to give a copy of every bit to an Evesdropper, they still can't make out the plain text.
asciilifeform: not merely the wires connected to the radio, carrying payload. nearby.
ninjashogun: dignork - are you saying that hte presence of WIFI will leak the CPU state?
asciilifeform: am i speaking chinese? what part of this isn't clear
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, are you saying that the presence of WIFI will leak the CPU?
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, the paper that proved that also suggested mitigation strategies...
asciilifeform: there is a very simple mitigation strategy. you don't need to burgle ft. meade to learn it.
asciilifeform: it's the one we use.
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, OK. If you think it is impossible to prevent WIFI from broadcasting the full contents of the CPU and RAM then you would have to design around it to make my suggestion possible, which may be too difficult.
bitcoinpete: mircea_popescu cool. just submitted it to smokinggun. what's hn?
ninjashogun: hn is hackernews normally
mircea_popescu: hos network
mircea_popescu: or hacker news
BingoBoingo: bitcoinpete: sumbit it to /.
mircea_popescu: one or the other
bitcoinpete: noted :)
ninjashogun: BingoBoingo: I hate to be the one to break it to you. I thought you heard. /. had a stroke and is in a nurinsg home :(
ninjashogun: nursing
asciilifeform: ninjashogun: your homework is to prove, given K bit rsa key with factors P,Q, there exists N, where N is number of bits you need to learn to factor into P,Q in polynomial time.
mircea_popescu: for some reason he has a hardon for slashdot
BingoBoingo: I'm old
diametric: mircea_popescu: that picture is fantastic, i was literally just having a conversation about redheads with someone moments ago.
ozbot: MtGox.com
asciilifeform: ninjashogun: your second homework is to play ussr national anthem using a pc, c or cpp program, and a shortwave radio.
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I've done that :)
asciilifeform wanders off to play with pet redhead
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.60989987 BTC [+]
diametric: Login to see how many imaginary coins you had
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I get your point but obviously if you can learn a single bit of a key, you can learn them all. Not one bit should be leaked, ever.
mircea_popescu: diametric i love it too hehe
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, anything that leaked one bit, could be repeated until you have them all. It only works if you can't learn any of them, except by brute-forcing all of them together.
ozbot: The Techtopus: How Silicon Valley’s most celebrated CEOs conspired to drive down 100,000 tech engi
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, further, as a practical matter you are not being asked to transmit a real key. You are just transmitting a stupid session key that is used to sign a single document. And if that session key is used in javascript, which is VERY far from the metal (it's a VM, running in interpreter, JS running in a C++ program, firefox, running on Windows) you would have to have insnae precision on learning exact CPU state.
mircea_popescu: lmao this reminds me of the original tucker max wage fixing story.
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I don't even mena to "sign" a single document. Just to transmit it. And receive back hte signed version.
ninjashogun: personally anyone who could bruteforce all that, while breaking wireless encyrption and your whole network stack, can see the damn document as far as I'm concerned. and they still wouldn't have my private key.
BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: Maybe you are the wrong audience as you aren't concerned very far
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 50 @ 0.0038 = 0.19 BTC [+]
dignork: ninjashogun, as simple as possible, wifi transmitter on key-storage device will leak cpu state of key-handling process, game over.
ninjashogun: dignork - but above and beyond what the computer leaks anyway by itself?
ninjashogun: dignork - because all computers obviously already leak some information through faint EM
dignork: ninjashogun, so you keep your key off your computer, to avoid exactly that
ninjashogun: dignork - if what you are saying is true than there should be a huge market for a USB wifi stick that is just 8 feet of shielded USB cable with a power conditioner on either end, so that your wifi transmission happens the fuck away from your CPU.
ninjashogun: nobody is this paranoid :)
dignork: ninjashogun, that's because a) people store useless trash on their systems and don't care/ b) they calculate the risks and live with it
dignork: ninjashogun, c) they're idiots
ninjashogun: or c) this is tinfoil hat nonsense :) :)
mircea_popescu: you're in a very poor position to evaluate any of these contingencies.
ninjashogun: I tend to go from first principles.
ninjashogun: I guess I could radically underestimate how much CPU state a wifi transmission can carry away.
ninjashogun: and what distance
ninjashogun: it's just that a CPU does so much, you know? it's 2 or 4 cores at 4 ghz with megabytes of just CPU cache and then hundreds of megabytes of active ram and programs
mircea_popescu: no, you could radically overestimate how much you understand of what's being discussed.
ninjashogun: I'm trying to invest in some 2.4 ghz wireless equipment (spectrum analyzer among other things) and would be the first time I use one.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 5200 @ 0.00015 = 0.78 BTC [-] {3}
ninjashogun: I'm currently developing a wireless version of my prototype, and it is true that I am still learning it.
bitcoinpete: Haven't used HN before, but here's my shot at it.
dignork: ninjashogun, let's say it's a complicated attack, and it costs 1M$, which you don't have, then you can safely assume you shouldn't care :)
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 1675 @ 0.00015 = 0.2513 BTC [-] {3}
ninjashogun: anyway I'd think there's a market for in-between, people (like me) who don't care that much, but would rather not keep a key on a PC
mircea_popescu: silent circle ?
ninjashogun: or tablet
dignork: ninjashogun, but 1M$ is overestimation, if it costs 10K$, should you care?
Duffer1: ninja but why would i buy yours over the cardano?
ThickAsThieves: <bitcoinpete> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7419574 /// nothing much loads
ninjashogun: Duffer1 - it' snot 'mine'. It's a feature suggestion for the cardano v2 or v3. it's still the cardano. 95% would be the same, including the basic invention that they described.
Duffer1: oh i see
ThickAsThieves: i cant believe you guys are still so weak to trolling
ThickAsThieves: ninjashogun ir probly furuknap or some other past annoyance
mircea_popescu: we're old people.
BingoBoingo: ThickAsThieves: Prolly Thermos
mircea_popescu: old people buy spamvertised dietary supplements and so on
ninjashogun: I've introduced myself...?
ninjashogun: I'm Robert, as I mentioned. I hadn't talked to you guys before.
ninjashogun: I stopped coming here and returned due to ughlol mentioning it. I think you guys are mostly trolling in here (which is fine).
mircea_popescu: you're confused.
bitcoinpete: ThickAsThieves good call. deleted that one and did a text one instead: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7419618
ninjashogun: When I had been coming in here it was following an experience over a similar channel (related to doge) on a loan. As someone here (asciilifeform?) explained, I should have 'no problem' getting a loan of $20K. In fact I did have "no problem" on it, but in the end I couldn't collect it, and had come in here over a few days to see if anyone were interested in the same.
Duffer1: ah, i have indeed heard of people drowning fighting their rescuers
ThickAsThieves: thats broke too pete
ninjashogun: on it->with it
mircea_popescu: ninjashogun anyway, you talk too much.
ninjashogun: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7419618 is showing as dead for me, bitcoinpete
mircea_popescu: ideally you want a 1k to 1 read:written lines
ThickAsThieves: ughlol and shogun made it easy to be dismissed, they started every conversation with their hands out
blackwhite: evening gents
mircea_popescu: so now stfu for a few months and spend hours reading the logs.
ThickAsThieves: even after being given links to educate themselves
ninjashogun: ThickAsThieves, I read your links. I didn't start any more conversations though.
ThickAsThieves: even after being made an example
mircea_popescu: mebbe by autumn i feel like clearing my ignore list again or something.
thestringpuller: ;;seen nubbins`
gribble: nubbins` was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 3 hours, 10 minutes, and 25 seconds ago: <nubbins`> most people don't get that far
ThickAsThieves: ;;seen pankkake
gribble: pankkake was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 2 weeks, 1 day, 23 hours, 10 minutes, and 2 seconds ago: <pankkake> reminder http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/08/12/android_bug_batters_bitcoin_wallets/
ThickAsThieves: musta got rich on ATC and quit the game...
mod6: ^^^
mircea_popescu: he's now atc rich
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 5 @ 0.052 = 0.26 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: ThickAsThieves: Maybe he's eyebrow deep in pussy http://headfucking.net/headfucking.mpg
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 3 @ 0.0521 = 0.1563 BTC [+]
cazalla: BingoBongo: looks like heisenberg
Duffer1: oh lawd
BingoBoingo: cazalla: It is from his site
mircea_popescu: "Two U.S. Air Force commanders in the 422nd Air Base Group at RAF Croughton have been relieved over a loss of confidence in their abilities."
mircea_popescu: one wonders what that'd be.
ThickAsThieves: they were better at receiving head than giving it
mircea_popescu: may have something to do with all the drones the us lost in the ukraine.
ThickAsThieves: do you think a scientist stating evolution is a fact is arrogant?
mircea_popescu: turns out they are kinda useless in actual military operations.
ninjashogun: BingoBoingo, that is hilarious
ninjashogun: see you guys later. I'm going off to bed.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 100 @ 0.0038 = 0.38 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: The problem with drones is it is way to tempting to stick them in places where they don't belong.
mircea_popescu: i guess people in the us are so starstruck with "technology" they forget they're just little radio planes.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.6098974 = 1.2198 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they can sack them, they can shoot them, a kid with $100 of kit can still take the next toy plane home.
mircea_popescu: kinda the problem, yes.
asciilifeform: i haven't the link, unfortunately, but the story goes:
mircea_popescu: the sackings will continue until the dollar improves
asciilifeform: that these buggers were originally supposed to use the rsa-signed gps
mircea_popescu: btw, what happened ot your sleep
asciilifeform: what sleep.
mircea_popescu: it's like sex but without moving.
asciilifeform: the $ that was supposed to buy the golden toilets (signed gps rx-ers) walked away.
asciilifeform: then they fitted consumer gps rx.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 28 @ 0.05265349 = 1.4743 BTC [+] {4}
asciilifeform: and, until recently, 'predator' video backhaul was... plaintext.
dignork: asciilifeform, do you mean the story with fake gps transmitters, which diverted drone?
asciilifeform: for a similar reason.
asciilifeform: dignork: it.
asciilifeform: there are now several such stories.
asciilifeform: probably more than i personally know of.
mircea_popescu: the word around the backchannels is that the usaf gets back about 2/3 of the drones it sends out
asciilifeform: (i'm not a model plane driver for a living, i only know the ones that every idiot knows now.)
mircea_popescu: and if this keeps up for another 3-4 years the rest of the world will own more drones than the usg.
dignork: asciilifeform, i loled about this story with my friend who builds them for non-US army, and she said that it won't work with their drones, cz they'll fallback into gps-less mode, once there will be delta between compass/altimeter and gps readings
asciilifeform: in the '80s, there was quite a bit of $ spent on navigation using optical terrain tracking.
asciilifeform: no idea if this survived herr reagan or not.
asciilifeform: judging by the use of 'gps' in 'predator', my guess is 'not.'
mircea_popescu: yeah contour nav is still used.
mircea_popescu: but on large icmb type of things. tehy've not really fittedf it to the 10lb shits yet
dignork: asciilifeform, US considers shutting off gps in some cases, so pbbly their drones can work gps-less too.
asciilifeform: dignork: this requires fitting receivers for the u.s. proprietary (crypted) gps to all hardware
asciilifeform: as it is, they famously lack enough even to supply infantry
asciilifeform: because they're $10k each.
asciilifeform: (why? ask the folks who make them, not me)
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 277 @ 0.00380202 = 1.0532 BTC [+] {3}
mircea_popescu: and they still suck.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: one could probably get within 1% of 'gps' by using camera and images mooched from a crawl of 'google earth'
asciilifeform: at least over land.
mircea_popescu: a lot of their spec is edge cases tho.
mircea_popescu: "you need to hit whether there's been a fire or not"
asciilifeform: you only need terrain tracking, etc. to correct for accumulated error in inertial (gyro) nav
mircea_popescu: many countless ways to throw camnav for a loop, including lulzy things like silly strings
asciilifeform: the latter can be had for $5 (it's in every ipnohe etc)
asciilifeform: 3-axis 'mems' gyro
mircea_popescu: nav-ready gyro is expensive.
asciilifeform: one that can be used alone ('Brandy Snifter gyro' or mechanical) is costly
mircea_popescu: mech is still the golden standard.
asciilifeform: solid-state (dollar store 3-axis chip) is adequate if you can occasionally correct.
mircea_popescu: i'/d suggest you try this theory out, but instead just lie down D:
asciilifeform: other thing
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 220 @ 0.00381 = 0.8382 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: you don't need elaborate navigation if your target helpfully shouts radio
asciilifeform: that you can then triangulate.
asciilifeform: (phased array using squadron flying in a triangle 1km on each side, say)
asciilifeform goes back to play with pet
dignork: asciilifeform, i tried 3-axis chip, it had a huge margin of error on a toy q-copter :(
ozbot: Warren Buffett says he wants to pay more tax (then structures a deal to ensure he does the exact opp
BingoBoingo: WHat's that thing you say "If you can, you must"
mircea_popescu: something like that.
mircea_popescu: decent write-up on the topic tho
mircea_popescu: this pando stuff is like a breath of fresh air, it almost reads like press from before digital ruined it all.
mircea_popescu: "OP, I know cryptostocks makes it seem as though starting your very own security is a sort of past time accessible to anyone who'd like to try, sort of like adopting a pet fish. This has nothing to do with bitcoin securities in fact and everything to do with play-pretend exchanges exploiting those who'd like to try but aren't ready for one reason or another."
mircea_popescu: i gotta hire this woman.
Duffer1: is she not already on payroll?
mircea_popescu: time machine ftw.
Duffer1: oh ^.^
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06894978 = 0.1379 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 100 @ 0.00382 = 0.382 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46814 @ 0.00089084 = 41.7038 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06894986 = 0.1379 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 50 @ 0.0059705 = 0.2985 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30497 @ 0.00089043 = 27.1554 BTC [-]
benderp: so i dunno what happened but i pooped out a 3kword monster
benderp: it's kinda rough as these airplane pieces can be
benderp: uhh wide ranging too
ozbot: The SEC doth breach itself upon the rocks of MPEx, and Popescu himself
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 87 @ 0.003849 = 0.3349 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 173 @ 0.00385 = 0.6661 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: how was your flight
mircea_popescu: meanwhile back at the ranch, bitbet invented a whole new kind of hell.
ozbot: BitBet - Bitcoin to surpass Berkshire as an investment
mircea_popescu: and bc.info is still down.
bitcoinpete: benderp: fantastic article. quite enjoyed "engaging in nefarious activity to palp the testicular fortitude of the people who matter and actually set policy in Bitcoin"
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