#trilema | 2013-10-28

gribble: MtGox BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 207.30000, Best ask: 207.80000, Bid-ask spread: 0.50000, Last trade: 207.30000, 24 hour volume: 14695.42472329, 24 hour low: 192.20589, 24 hour high: 208.36000, 24 hour vwap: 202.88589

jurov: http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/columnist/wolff/2013/10/27/ceos-are-often-clueless-about-technology/3182203/

ozbot: Wolff: How CEOs are clueless about technology

jurov: ^ for anyone who is still fearing govt will kill bitcoin

pankkake: are there people who really fear that? or simply think they will *try* (which is annoying enough)

pankkake: I don't really see the relation with the article though

pankkake: ;;later tell mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-08-2013&bots=true#273774

gribble: The operation succeeded.

mircea_popescu: pankkake no, see, it's a bad power

pankkake: bad power supply? cable?

mircea_popescu: see, a drive popped yest. so this was suspicious, was looked into extensively. nothing found. new drive was put in.

mircea_popescu: ~1 hour later, this drive also popped.

mircea_popescu: that particular power strip apparently puts noise in burns drives. i have no spare powers because a lot of shit in there.

mircea_popescu: and etc.

pankkake: hard drives are very capricious… power, cables, airflow :/

mircea_popescu: i have never heard of shit like this before.

mircea_popescu: anyway, no attack, no data loss, no anything. just fucking obnoxious power.

jurov: mircea ic, you thought too hard about good entropy sources.. so one got manifest :D

KRS1: bad ground?

pankkake: I tested my appartment, depending on the wall it has bad ground or reversed polarity. must have been wired by monkeys

lurker: the best electricians!

lurker: hi

KRS1: hush you are supposed to be lurking

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CFIG] 1 @ 0.17777 BTC [-]

lurker: I am shhhh

KRS1: ok

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 81 @ 0.00599893 = 0.4859 BTC [-]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [XBOND] [PAID] 0.69348300 BTC to 1`386`966 shares, 50 satoshi per share

davout: pankkake: reversed polarity? with alternative current?

davout: :-)

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 50 @ 0.00599699 = 0.2998 BTC [-]

mircea_popescu: jurov, totally

pankkake: well, I don't know really, of course it doesn't make sense. but something was reversed according to my tester

pankkake: http://www.audiograal.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/testeur.jpg depending on the wall, the errors weren't the same

pankkake: (ok, not polarity)

davout: pankkake: where did you learn electronics? bfl?

davout: :D

Apocalyptic: haha davout

lewicki: chevron 7 is now locked

pankkake: I had the lowest score of my last eletronic classes actually!

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.6000001 BTC [+]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.6 BTC [-]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 9 @ 0.05750001 = 0.5175 BTC [-]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 160 @ 0.00114754 = 0.1836 BTC [-] {4}

bitesak: ;;ticker

gribble: MtGox BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 206.01000, Best ask: 206.02000, Bid-ask spread: 0.01000, Last trade: 206.02000, 24 hour volume: 15499.07585503, 24 hour low: 192.22880, 24 hour high: 208.50000, 24 hour vwap: 203.41622

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 8 @ 0.5812 = 4.6496 BTC [-] {2}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 34 @ 0.00571013 = 0.1941 BTC [-]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 100 @ 0.00571012 = 0.571 BTC [-] {2}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [LABCO] [PAID] 0.54749128 BTC to 40`316 shares, 1358 satoshi per share

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 1 @ 0.34998999 BTC [+]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 220 @ 0.0011 = 0.242 BTC [-]

ThickAsThieves: Free migration of NEOBEE shares from Bitfunder to Havelock ends soon! https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=289730.msg3427655#msg3427655

smickles: $email

mpexbot: smickles: No new messages received.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 186 @ 0.00571005 = 1.0621 BTC [-] {2}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 22 @ 0.0056309 = 0.1239 BTC [-] {2}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.61 BTC [+]

jcpham: smickles!

jcpham: greetings and salutations

mircea_popescu: well that was painful.

nubbins`: i've got this condition where it's really difficult for me to find the ketchup in the fridge

abracadabra: put a big yellow flag on the ketchup bottle

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 1834 @ 0.0011 = 2.0174 BTC [-]

bob_: omg mpex is back.

bob_: almost.

Azelphur: mpex fought the law and the...mpex won

bob_: almost. some stuff is weird.

nubbins`: abracadabra: i seriously searched for 30 minutes last night. open the fridge this morning, ketchup sitting alone on the bottom shelf

bob_: heh. the s.nsa ipo is back on!

bob_: looks like 10 days of data missing. well, those trades probably weren't important anyway :D

mircea_popescu: bob they're just not showing.

mircea_popescu: also trade is not active atm.

the20year: what exchanges are working decently?

nubbins`: mircea_popescu: one of the big problems with higher education is that students think "ok, i just attend these classes, get this degree, and i'm employable", which is just not true. getting a university degree, college diploma, whatever, doesn't mean you're employable, doesn't mean you have skills, doesn't mean you know how to do anything besides graduate from a program. the value isn't in the degre

nubbins`: or the individual classes, the value is being in an environment where you have ready access to the tools you need to educate *yourself*. nobody understands this anymore, and so they just show up and mope through classes and go home, not communicating with people who could offer advice, not seeking out opportunities to gain useful knowledge. just going through the motions and passing tests until the

nubbins`: get a sheet of paper that says "B.Sc. (hons)", and then working a shit retail job until one day they realize (or not) what they should have been doing all along

nubbins`: and it takes a 3 minute job interview to separate those who went through the motions from those who took the opportunity to educate themselves

pankkake: getting drunk with friends were the best learning experiences I got from higher education

pankkake: well, and the internships

pankkake: didn't even bother coming back for the diplomas

nubbins`: spending six years learning that i didn't want to spend the rest of my life working in an office was the best learning experience i got

nubbins`: very, very expensive lesson, but sometimes it must be so

KRS-: nubbins: not sure if you went to college or not, I did and I learned a lot. A lot of what you said is true, but you can't discount a degree someone has attained.

jurov: so... since mpex now advises to vent our rage here... y u no backup machine mircea???

nubbins`: KRS-: i spent 6 years in university. i'm discounting the notion that possession of a degree automatically confers knowledge, wisdom, or experience. :)

nubbins`: i know lots of very intelligent university-educated people, but i also know some complete fucking morons with the same credentials

KRS-: Ok I see what you are saying and you are right. Those who are just good test takers who finished a program stick out like a sore thumb imo.

bob_: certainly not experience, but it does generally mean some knowledge.

KRS-: Most of the time you can tell just by talking to them.

pankkake: I wouldn't employ most of the people who got the diplomas I got

bob_: CS majors know what O(n) means. English majors who taught themselves html do not.

jurov: nubbins`: i'd reject such advice before my 3rd uni year as outright blasphemous

nubbins`: well, that's the problem. kids are throwing tens of $ away, under the impression that it will make a difference in their lives. but unless they have the drive to take what they want and the self-awareness to know what it is, it'll never be anything more than a costly waste of time for them

the20year: I'm still pretty happy with the fact I have never attended formal college

nubbins`: tens of $? lel. tens of thousands of $

bob_: 100's.

nubbins`: this is why a bachelor's degree is the new standard for employability

nubbins`: because everyone has one

the20year: I wonder how much that piece of paper would cost me

nubbins`: completely avoiding the fact that they're as useless now as a HS diploma was not long ago

mircea_popescu: jurov because at some point your system is either cenrtralised or it isn't.

jurov: btw, i'd happily employ genial teenagers.. but how to find them and how to keep them motivated for my cause?

the20year: Develop a hiring system

KRS-: the20year: cost me $60 I got 2% for 12 years financing still paying lol

nubbins`: you can't "keep" people motivated

mircea_popescu: you know genial = friendly, happy people. genius is prolly what you mean

KRS-: $60K

jurov: the20year: can you elaborate?

nubbins`: ah a hiring system. why has nobody thought of this!

nubbins`: can part of the system be "nobody gives a fuck if you have a degree"

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 400 @ 0.0011 = 0.44 BTC [-]

nubbins`: anyway. walk around any campus and ask some young faces why they're there. see how many say "because my parents expect this of me". see how many are thinking the same but are ashamed to admit it.

nubbins`: can you think of a bigger waste of money? or TIME?

the20year: Personally, i try and develop a plan of finding people who can be motivated, either by time or money, then provide a roadmap so they can see how they will gain good income for working with me over a set period of time

jurov: as compared to?

jurov: nubbins`: ^

the20year: I hate hourly pay, so what I typically offer is contract pricing, pay-for-performace models, so as they get better ,their wages automatically increase, and then if they don't work well they'll quit on their own without dragging down the company too much

nubbins`: as compared to spending time figuring out what you want from life

jurov: the20year: the coworking space i'm affiliated to, is trying exactly this

jurov: and it is all but easy

the20year: That's how I run RentalStarter, working with contractors

the20year: Hit the goals? You get a bonus. Miss them? You make less money

nubbins`: university is just a 4 (or more) year extension on the autopilot that's been running these kids' lives

the20year: Pretty much, they do what they're told without thinking

the20year: My cousin went to school for history, then he realized he can't get a job there, so now he's getting another degree in logistics

jurov: again, what alternative do you suggest?

the20year: I asked him "Who are you applying to after college" and he didn't think he could get employed ,even though a logistics degree is amazing to have

assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!

the20year: Build a business, learn to run it

jurov: you know, just telling them this outright does *not* work

nubbins`: i suggest not going to university. at least, not until you know what the fuck you want and have at least a general idea of how to get it

nubbins`: but suggestions are advice, and the funny thing about advice is that nobody wants to hear it until they're ready

the20year: Very true

nubbins`: and nobody's ready until they've sunk $60k into a degree in german film, or history, or biology

jurov: i could have had a business, even in opensource development long ago (nerd's wet dream i guess), but was afraid how to explain to everyone around

the20year: So why couldn't you explain it?

jurov: because...how it can be more important than school?

nubbins`: EVERYTHING IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN SCHOOL

the20year: Most will have to learn the hard way

nubbins`: NOBODY REALIZES THIS

the20year: I ask people to spend no less than 30 hours of research on the degree they want, speicifcally in how it will improve employability

the20year: I don't know how many people I know with psycology degrees who are flipping burgers still

nubbins`: science degrees are the biggest trick of all

jurov: also, i was not able to put consistent work output then due to psych problems

the20year: And I asked them all "When you saw that the unemployment rate for someone with that degree is 20% or more, why did you think it was a good idea?"

nubbins`: what the fuck are you gonna do with a biology degree? become a biologist?

nubbins`: great, how about the other 200 people in your graduating class?

nubbins`: working at pet stores and Liquor Mart

jurov: but they can't get somewhere where they have maths! even if their life depends on it...

nubbins`: now, to be fair, i'm squarely in the group of people who figured this all out after the fact

nubbins`: so it's not like i did things the smart way

nubbins`: but in my defense, i was told that this shit was basically a golden ticket

nubbins`: what a lel that was

nubbins`: the other half of this is that people tend to settle. "well, i'm done school, no more learning for me"

nubbins`: and they just stop taking in new information and learning new skills

KRS-: big mistake

nubbins`: that's almost worse, spinning your wheels so slowly that you don't even notice you're sinking into the mud

KRS-: thats what makes the difference between a ceo and someone who spends their life in their entry-level position

nubbins`: yes

nubbins`: but i think the problem in a lot of cases is that people just don't want anything

nubbins`: they're content to just float along

the20year: yep

the20year: Why not? The government will take care of them

nubbins`: every now and then they have an attack of guilt at the waste their life has become, but why dwell on that when it would take so much effort to change!

the20year: in modern society there's no problem, punishment or negative towards someone who doesn't want to do anything with life

bob_: not everything is more important than school. i'm looking at a resume right now that does not have a college listed, but does have that he attended "tony robbins - power to influence"

bob_: i'd rather see a degree

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 134 @ 0.00550271 = 0.7374 BTC [-] {7}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 266 @ 0.00530292 = 1.4106 BTC [-] {8}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 60 @ 0.00579997 = 0.348 BTC [+]

nubbins`: the20year: let me find you a quote

the20year: "Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."

bob_: yeah, i think tony robbins said that.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 61 @ 0.00540004 = 0.3294 BTC [-]

nubbins`: "The Brutor takes pride in the troubles of their life because it all adds to their stature. They marvel at failure, such as bad grades in school, or getting hassled by cops who tell them only to move along. ... Any punishment for his actions becomes a badge and holds no real consequence because jail is holding him back from nothing but killing time"

the20year: Calvin Coolidge

bob_: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYYp0TgNfGE

ozbot: Anthony Robbins- Tony Robbins Persist to Achieve - YouTube

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 100 @ 0.05611302 = 5.6113 BTC [-] {8}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [KCIM] 1 @ 0.399 BTC [+]

jurov: bullshit

jurov: it's impossible to some day decide "i'll be persistent" and stick to it for years

mircea_popescu: why ?

nubbins`: correct. persistence is a skill like any other

jurov: if you're otherwise happe and satiated

nubbins`: you need to work on it

jurov: *happy

nubbins`: jurov: happy and satiated are not synonyms

jurov: i did not say that

nubbins`: you came pretty close

nubbins`: many people are unhappy, yet satiated

nubbins`: that's what leads to change

nubbins`: being happy *and* satiated? you've got it knocked. don't change a thing.

jurov: man starts very unhappy or hungry. then one sets their goals to prevent it happening again

KRS-: a degree at the very least shows that someone can stick to something and complete it..for that, comes some value. as a hiring manager i'd rather see a degree.

nubbins`: KRS-: arguably the only concrete value a degree holds

nubbins`: but there are plenty of other ways to prove that

KRS-: the importance them comes down to whether or not you can tell if someone is just a good test taker or actually has knowledge and knows how to apply it

nubbins`: yes!

nubbins`: how many interviewees see it as yet another test that they must figure out how to pass

nubbins`: wholly missing the point of the entire exercise

nubbins`: and ending up in an unsatisfying job?

KRS-: but how many times have people been hired just because they can spit good game at an interview only to find out they are incompetent jerkoffs

nubbins`: plenty of those around, too

KRS-: salesmen come to mind

nubbins`: i used to work with a girl who had a B.Eng. with honors, and she wrote the worst code i've ever seen. variables called "resultset1" and "string3", seriously

nubbins`: "why the fuck did you guys hire her?"

nubbins`: "she was great in the interview"

kakobrekla: tits?

nubbins`: irrelevant, but no

the20year: interview = sacj

the20year: '*sack

nubbins`: no, she was just smart on paper and knew how to interview

KRS-: pfft

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 39 @ 0.00540004 = 0.2106 BTC [-] {2}

nubbins`: but that didn't quite overcome her crippling lack of social skills or job knowledge

nubbins`: go figure

dexX7: http://www.nasdaq.com/markets/ipos/company/winklevoss-bitcoin-trust-909930-72927

ozbot: WINKLEVOSS BITCOIN TRUST IPO - NASDAQ.com

the20year: Nice

jurov: mircea_popescu: seems my rant about not having spare machine for mpex got lost

jurov: but i insist, why you have to wait for The One Holy Server to be rebuilt?

nubbins`: <mircea_popescu> jurov because at some point your system is either cenrtralised or it isn't.

kakobrekla: yeah but reduncancy doenst have to kill centralisation

kakobrekla: ba

jurov: nubbins` how it precludes having regularly updated spare server?

mircea_popescu: kakobrekla the problem is centralisation + security as a combo.

nubbins`: jurov: shrug, i only paste ;)

mircea_popescu: you CAN seamlessly failover on errors, if the result of errors is nil and convenience of not having errors is what counts.

mircea_popescu: however, if the result of errors is not nil, you can't just shrug and move on

mircea_popescu: in my case, i have to, everytime something unexpected happens, see why the fuck it happened before i can move on

nubbins`: or, put another way, a backup box is no good if it's a backup of a compromised machine

mircea_popescu: exactly.

kakobrekla: well there you have it jurov!

kakobrekla: :>

jurov: hm... so next time psu or raid controller dies, we'll be few days offline, again. cuz it could been a hack?

bob_: right, but, if you had a backup, once you decided it was just a power problem that fried your drive, you could recover faster.

mircea_popescu: what do you want me to do ;/

bob_: ^ what jurov said

mircea_popescu: last time it was a motherfucking "hack"

mircea_popescu: or w/e successful social engineering

nubbins`: hm, bob makes a point

mircea_popescu: bob_ yes, in principle. see, here's the thing : the more complex the security model becomes, by that very fact the more complex recovery processes become

mircea_popescu: this is unavoidalbe.

mircea_popescu: at some point the dilemma is, "either people will complain becauyse it takes too long, or people will complain because x edge case wasn't covered in the security design"

mircea_popescu: also unavoidable.

bob_: agreed with the theory, but in practice you could probably reduce the downtime with some improvements to architecture.

jurov: i mean, if you can do process with one machine, you can do the same with the second one with small marginal costs

lewicki: .d

ozbot: 390928787.63809 | Next Diff in 1552 blocks | Estimated Change: 24.0238% in 8d 4h 7m 29s

jurov: to have at least hardware fails covered

mircea_popescu: jurov yes, but then at some point you have machines in disagreement. how do you resolve this ?

mircea_popescu: also, machines don't cost 0.

mircea_popescu: so would you have a faster & better main server, or a shittier main so the back-up is there ?

mircea_popescu: depends, right ? if you never have catastrophic failures of the sort, the incremental gain from the better server is everyone's benefit.

mircea_popescu: however, if you do noboduy cares you were < .1 seconds forever, cause well... days offline.

jurov: well i'm all for shitty servers, and lots of them... you gonna scale up and hadle faults quickly someday anyway

mircea_popescu: anwyay, mpex is very much an adaptive beast. it's the best i can do, honestly, because i don't know the correct way to build bitcoin systems

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 130 @ 0.05510001 = 7.163 BTC [-] {2}

mircea_popescu: i daresay nobody does. we're finding out.

bob_: we are trying to figure that out :) since you don't allow high-frequency trading anyway, nobody cares if it's < .1 seconds or < .2 seconds.

Namworld: I'm alive

jurov: hi Namworld

mircea_popescu: bob_ except when ipo or w/e

mircea_popescu: yes, 99% of the time 99% of your shit isn't at work / needed.

kakobrekla: im just joking btw. i dont have a license to drive a bus.

bob_: so given that security is the most important thing, and we all understand the complexities involved, I think we can still agree that 2 days down for a failed hard drive probably warrents a blame-less post mortem with the goal of improving the system for the future?

mircea_popescu: blameless or blameful, you know ? what can i do, i'm doing it.

bob_: blameless.

bob_: glad to hear :)

mircea_popescu: but for all the shortcomings of distributed models, which exist, the centralised model has its problems.

jurov: well, just sayin'. maybe you study all chips with electron microscope and then second machine would really double whole expense...

mircea_popescu: well, see, before the 2nd drive went in and got fried, i had already sent the 1st to be cut up

mircea_popescu: so now i will get a pretty expensive lab bill saying "power fluctuations caused bla bla bla"

nubbins`: http://books.google.ca/books?id=f8gTJ3-MWzEC&pg=PA288

nubbins`: paragraphs 2-4

nubbins`: never trust a computer

pankkake: is it any good? I only read the Frank Herbert originals

nubbins`: a lot of people who like Frank's really dislike Brian's, but i enjoyed it

lurker: not the same style, not the same depth - forget the herbert name and it's decent

nubbins`: ^

pankkake: I see. thanks

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 150 @ 0.07374266 = 11.0614 BTC [+] {3}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 90 @ 0.075 = 6.75 BTC [+]

nubbins`: http://imgur.com/Q61qWo3

dexX7: omg :D

nubbins`: cant stop laughing

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 24 @ 0.074 = 1.776 BTC [-]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 100 @ 0.075 = 7.5 BTC [+]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 10 @ 0.075 = 0.75 BTC [+]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 100 @ 0.00530115 = 0.5301 BTC [+] {2}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 96 @ 0.00530073 = 0.5089 BTC [-] {2}

kakobrekla: better http://imgur.com/a/usnAh

wao: :D

ThickAsThieves: http://buttcoin.org/cringiest-bitcoin-video-ever

kleeck: Oh... no.

kleeck: I just stopped it.

kleeck: I can't deal with that level of fail.

dexX7: lol wtf

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 50 @ 0.00569993 = 0.285 BTC [+]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 20 @ 0.00569993 = 0.114 BTC [+] {2}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 100 @ 0.005301 = 0.5301 BTC [-] {3}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [LABCO] 450 @ 0.000499 = 0.2246 BTC [-]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 100 @ 0.0056 = 0.56 BTC [-]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 100 @ 0.005391 = 0.5391 BTC [-] {3}

KRS-: lol jurov i'm in I.T. i feel your pain

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [LABCO] 470 @ 0.00049953 = 0.2348 BTC [+] {2}

jborkl: I am angry just watching that video

jborkl: what a moron

kakobrekla: well a little sync practice and is good to go

nubbins`: yeah

nubbins`: he obviously didn't do a dry run of his presentation before the real thing, hey?

jcpham: what is this video

jcpham: shouldn't adviser be advisor

nubbins`: i think a lot of things should be other things

jcpham: in areica there is no such thing as an adviser

jcpham: all i see are grammatical errors already

jcpham: first few notes of floyd and dancing lost me

[\]: this made me lol http://buttcoin.org/the-reddit-bitcoin-tipping-bot-is-the-worst-way-to-promote-bitcoin-and-the-shills-wont-shut-up-about-it

kakobrekla: The whole r/bitcointip subreddit still doesnt tell me shit so I just google default bitcoin address and get this lovely address in return.

kakobrekla: 1BitcoinEaterAddressDontSendf59kuE

kakobrekla: That seems like a good address. I decide to send my bitcoins there to that nice guy or gal can do something great in the world with that money.

kakobrekla: lol

nubbins`: heh

bob_: holee shit. asciilifeform - the force behind s.nsa - is from washington DC? conspiracy!

the20year: lol

the20year: what exchange?

dexX7: mpex

the20year: how difficult is it to get a lsiting on there?

kakobrekla: !jd

assbot: Just-Dice stat: 6106 BTC profit, 62.0k BTC invested, 210.04 mio bets, 4.29 mio BTC wagered

dexX7: i don't know, but mp is the one who approves the listings, i guess

the20year: trying to figure out what I should do if BF closes shop

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 52 @ 0.0053 = 0.2756 BTC [-] {4}

kakobrekla: go back to glbse?

kakobrekla: oh wait.

Diablo-D3: ;;ticker

gribble: MtGox BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 208.00200, Best ask: 209.50000, Bid-ask spread: 1.49800, Last trade: 209.49999, 24 hour volume: 10670.51827506, 24 hour low: 200.42000, 24 hour high: 209.79000, 24 hour vwap: 206.06603

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 3 @ 0.5814 = 1.7442 BTC [-]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.5813 BTC [-]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 27 @ 0.5720901 = 15.4464 BTC [-] {7}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 54 @ 0.00522592 = 0.2822 BTC [-] {2}

nubbins`: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1pecgp/blockchaininfo_celebrates_500000_wallets_with/

ozbot: Blockchain.info celebrates 500,000 wallets with free bitcoins : Bitcoin

nubbins`: site down

nubbins`: lel

asciilifeform: bob_: fact.

dub: fkn chemtrails

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 20 @ 0.0051 = 0.102 BTC [-]

skinnkavaj: pankkake

skinnkavaj: Here is a new investment

skinnkavaj: https://www.litecoininvest.com/security/SKETIS.INVEST

skinnkavaj: They are a security exchange platform

ozbot: Litecoininvest

skinnkavaj: They will offer one platform for LTC, BTC and XPM

skinnkavaj: All profits from fee trading will bee through that SKETIS.INVEST

skinnkavaj: I think they will overtake a lot of Litecoinglboal and BTCT trading

skinnkavaj: And XPM security trading will be interesting.

Apocalyptic: <skinnkavaj> And XPM security trading will be interesting. // i lol'd

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 5 @ 0.07599999 = 0.38 BTC [+]

skinnkavaj: Valuation for all 3 exchanges: 250K LTC.. Currently worth = 2782 BTC

skinnkavaj: It's an investment in both LTC and their 3 exchange platform.

pankkake: I've been thinking about starting an xpm mining operation (there are some cheap deals you can profit from), but it certainly wouldn't be denominated in xp

skinnkavaj: Apocalyptic: Tell me a better investment.

pankkake: m

dexX7: hm?

pankkake: xpm as a currency is stupid

Apocalyptic: ^^

dexX7: skinnkavaj: are you behind www.litecoininvest.com?

pankkake: the coin that can be 51% attacked with $1000 + amazon ec2

skinnkavaj: dexX7: Not behind it, but bought shares today.

dexX7: so are you operating a passthrough or what?

skinnkavaj: No no

Apocalyptic: skinnkavaj, "better" in what sense ? more reward potential ? less risky ? better ratio ?

skinnkavaj: SKETIS.INVEST is officially from Litecoininvest

dexX7: ah so you are just promoting it?

skinnkavaj: dexX7: No one has told me to do that. I do it because I am a share holder, this is asset channel and to rub profits in pankkake and Apocalyptics face latero n.

dexX7: i'm just asking

dexX7: because it wasn't clear what your role was

dexX7: and skinn... and sketis sound more or less similar D:

skinnkavaj: This week they will be launching their BTC security exchange

skinnkavaj: I have no URL though. It's not presented yet.

dexX7: i have it

dexX7: :D

dexX7: he should open a thread on btctalk

mod6: speaking of bad drives, my lappy drive died also :<

jurov: RIP. these fkn chemtrails, you know.

mod6: ya srsly.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 47 @ 0.0053 = 0.2491 BTC [+]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 25 @ 0.00534941 = 0.1337 BTC [+]

pankkake: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24486685 RIP USD

ozbot: BBC News - China and ECB sign $57bn currency swap deal

jurov: ;;ticker

gribble: MtGox BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 206.99000, Best ask: 207.40932, Bid-ask spread: 0.41932, Last trade: 206.96100, 24 hour volume: 10522.93290146, 24 hour low: 200.42000, 24 hour high: 209.79000, 24 hour vwap: 206.35675

wao: ;;bcstats

lurker: ;;market buy 100000

gribble: This order would exceed the size of the order book. You would buy 37088.785 bitcoins, for a total of 6626978770.6762 USD and take the price to 99999999999.0000. | Data vintage: 0.0037 seconds

lurker: samn, I wanted to buy for 20M$ in BTC. I guess the Vii will have to be patient...

pankkake: it's probably only looking at mtgox though

lurker: ;;market buy 20000

gribble: A market order to buy 20000 bitcoins right now would take 4511753.5588 USD and would take the last price up to 248.6458 USD, resulting in an average price of 225.5877 USD/BTC. | Data vintage: 94.1080 seconds

lurker: ;;market buy 50000

lurker: ;;market buy 40000

lurker: meh

pankkake: perhaps they'll buy DPR's coins!

lurker: no, Ripple!

pankkake: yeah, the advantage is that there is no shortage of them :p

mircea_popescu: lol

mircea_popescu: 37k all the btc left, srsly ?

lurker: print'em!

dexX7: here is a nice way to track the books: http://blockchained.com/depth_mtgox_15d.png

smickles: i might be here now

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 16 @ 0.31501013 = 5.0402 BTC [-] {3}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 2 @ 0.31501012 = 0.63 BTC [-] {2}

dexX7: there is another really awesome graph i stumbled upon lately: http://coinsight.org/graphs/reddit_subscribers.png :D

pankkake: lol

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 4 @ 0.31501009 = 1.26 BTC [-] {2}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 9 @ 0.31500016 = 2.835 BTC [-]

lurker: ;;ticker --market all

gribble: MtGox BTCUSD last: 207.99400, vol: 10505.75742485 | Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 195.37, vol: 12532.34495373 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 188.88, vol: 8286.85443 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 195.85, vol: 3319.8770489 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 185.98, vol: 336.11482793 | Volume-weighted last average: 197.579214505

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 100 @ 0.00105014 = 0.105 BTC [-] {4}

ThickAsThieves: http://bitcoinmagazine.com/7798/decentralization-key-to-bitcoins-success/

ThickAsThieves: decentralize all the things!

lurker: TAT: decentralization is essential. BTC enemy n°1 is centralization (51% yada yada)

pankkake: centralization is often misunderstood. for instance, mining isn't becoming centralized

lurker: BTC can't survive without being decentralized enough.

lurker: pankakke: it's being concentrated ATM

lurker: pankkake* sry :)

pankkake: I highlight all spellings :p

lurker: technically, it's not a spelling mistake since it's a name :P

Bugpowder: ThickAsThieves: Did you short your AM PTs all the way down?

Bugpowder: Looks like my call to short it at 1BTC would have been profitable, if I had pulled the trigged and not gotten stopped out. :-P

mircea_popescu: lurker how do you know all this ?

mircea_popescu: i mean "BTC can't survive without being decentralized enough". what's enough and how do you know ?

lurker: pandora's box

lurker: gimme a min :)

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 877 @ 0.00501262 = 4.3961 BTC [-] {16}

lurker: mircea_popescu: there might be a way to attack this mathematically but I don't know if there is an exact answer to "how much". The extreme min. would be to have 2 trusted but untrusting miners.

lurker: However, that means a lot of centralization will have happened.

lurker: I can see this if these 2 miners are, say, banks, with lots of customers, all using bitcoin.

lurker: The problem is getting from where we are to there.

lurker: ATM, bitcoin survives on geek greediness and criminals.

lurker: They don't want centralization.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 195 @ 0.005 = 0.975 BTC [-]

lurker: If the winkelvoss types start "attacking" the bitcoin market, it will have the effect of a middlecoin on the latest scamcoin.

mircea_popescu: i think you're jumping to conclusions on very little data, and the shape of those conclusions is visibly more influenced by your own ideas of the world than the actual reality of the matter

lurker: you might be right, but it's gut feeling.

lurker: that's the kind of thing you "just know" but you can't put it into works (2 different parts of the brain)

lurker: words*

lurker: (and it's late - I'm not particularly articulate at this hour)

mircea_popescu: right.

lurker: anyway, the centralization/decentralizatio n"issue" in bitcoin always struck me as ironic.

mircea_popescu: why ?

lurker: the fact that there is a "51%" problem at all for a system based on trust/demand/decentralization

lurker: that means the weakness of bitcoin IS centralization

lurker: when you have centralization, you lose trust and without it you lose demand and value.

mircea_popescu: the system is not based on "trust/demand/decentralization". the system is based on the blockchain because it has to use some solution for the byzantyne problem once it's decentralised.

mircea_popescu: the 51% attack is a weakness of the particular solution used to implement decentralisation.

mircea_popescu: it'

mircea_popescu: s important to put these things in their right order.

lurker: decentralization/trust/demand

mircea_popescu: uh, not THOSE things.

mircea_popescu: those things are by and large irrelevant in this discussion.

lurker: hmmmm

mircea_popescu: looky here. you decide to make a system. next step, is to decide whether it shall be centralised or decentralised.

lurker: are we talking markets or technology?

mircea_popescu: if you take the former, you can asume the implementation is friendly.

mircea_popescu: if you take the latter, you can't so asume. the implementation has to be somehow forced to stick to the design

lurker: ripple is friendly?

mircea_popescu: the particular way bitcoin forces this is through the blockchain.

mircea_popescu: friendly to the design, not friendly to you.

mircea_popescu: (design) ? (implementation)

lurker: back to my earlier questions: are you discussing technology or market (money)?

mircea_popescu: this distinction doesn't work in bitcoin as you'd expect.

lurker: you're right, and wrong.

mircea_popescu: anyway, a very simple example to understand what i mean : suppose the law says nobody may search your house without a warrant.

mircea_popescu: what makes the actual cop at your door (implementation) follow this principle (design) ?

mircea_popescu: in a centralised system, the assumption is that the implementation is friendly to the design, and the cop will do what the fuck the law says he should do.

lurker: I'm crystal on your meaning, no sweat.

mircea_popescu: as the implementation becomes less centralised (for instance through the workings of democracy, and lawmakers pushing agendas etc),

mircea_popescu: the cop of today can't be so trusted.

lurker: It comes down to the same thing: can you be sure that system is doing what you expect it to? (= do you trust the system)

mircea_popescu: yes, it does. being happy always boils down to 1. identify what to do to be happy and 2. doing that.

lurker: Trust is what the blockcahin builds.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 1 @ 0.31500016 BTC [-]

lurker: Many miners (many copies of the blockchain) builds trust in the blockchain itself.

lurker: kind of a quorum.

lurker: or quanta, à la gold value.

lurker: Then comes demand for the quanta and that creates value.

asciilifeform: lurker: L. Lamport. "The Byzantine Generals Problem."

asciilifeform: http://www.cs.cornell.edu/courses/cs614/2004sp/papers/lsp82.pdf

asciilifeform: read and then come back...

asciilifeform: (and then he'll come back and ask why 51% attack in btc, and not a 67% attack. and it'll be fair.)

mircea_popescu: for that matter, demand does not create value. value creates demand.

mircea_popescu: this is why the qe does not improve the position of the us.

lurker: asciilifeform: I'm not looking at it from the technology standpoint.

lurker: mircea_popescu: chicken or egg?

lurker: you can't have value before you have demand.

asciilifeform: lurker: unless you know the theoretical limits of the tech, you're stuck pontificating.

asciilifeform: sorta like people who ponder solutions to energy crisis without ever having heard of thermodynamical laws, the carnot engine, etc.

mircea_popescu: in a sense, the tech creates the ontological limits of the discourse. this is not visible as much in "classical" applications, because somehow it's obvious that your particular abilities to deal with weak nuclear force are involved.

mircea_popescu: but in more advanced applications, there's little way to distinguish between "tech" and "the rules of the world"

lurker: OK, so what, for you, creates the value of bitcoin?

mircea_popescu: the fact that it gives better answers to several classes of problems

mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/category/bitcoin/

ozbot: Bitcoin pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.

mircea_popescu: read through there, i've written out many cases.

VanCleef: bitcoin is a new global scam tho

lurker: mircea_popescu: I don't see anything that would put value before demand.

mircea_popescu: VanCleef you're not even kidding, i get a lot of (mostly, older, mostly white, mostly male, republican types) very indignant at how they knoiw btc to be a scam

asciilifeform: has nobody ever heard of 'hawala'?

asciilifeform: they've been doing 'bitcoin' since the caliphs.

mircea_popescu: and they had a pretty good solution for the byzantine generals, rtoo.

VanCleef: it is a scam

VanCleef: looking at what happening to mining

dexX7: hey asciilifeform, do you have a blog or something similar, too? it's not the first time i see you posting something interesting

VanCleef: taking satoshi to court over this

asciilifeform: dexX7: sure. 'loper-os.org'.

dexX7: ah ty

asciilifeform: VanCleef: say you're trying to catch a bus, and run late. you run after it, and jump, don't quite make it, fall into traffic. the end. buses are a scam?

mircea_popescu: yes.

mircea_popescu: definitely.

VanCleef: what do buses have to do with scamming people out of money?

VanCleef: catching a bus isn't involving yourself with a pyramid scheme

lurker: asciilifeform/mircea_popescu: bitcoin is a bus. do you care what engine it has? (on this, night night / arrevedere)

VanCleef: think of it more like this

VanCleef: say you spent 100grand on a bus ticket right and instead of the bus driver picking you up he crashes into your living room and starts raping your grandmother

VanCleef: you wouldn't get a bit upset?

skinnkavaj: Anyone here remember what price Litecoinglobal shares was at launch?

asciilifeform: VanCleef: are you thinking of something other than the difficulty increase?

asciilifeform: because the latter is in no way a surprise

mircea_popescu: perhaps a surprise in degree, but certainly not in kind

Kleeck_: who runs litecoinglobal?

Kleeck_: not burnside, I take it

dexX7: he did

Kleeck_: he sold it?

dexX7: hm?

dexX7: he was the admin there the whole time

Kleeck_: I was told that the site was coming back into operation?

Kleeck_: Maybe I was ill informed.

dexX7: ah, i think you mistake it with www.litecoininvest.com?

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 23 @ 0.00501 = 0.1152 BTC [+]

samson_: !dgc

samson_: !offline

samson_: oops - sorry - wrong channel

KRS1: hi

mircea_popescu: There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.

mircea_popescu: let's play guess the author

asciilifeform: naggum?

mircea_popescu: hehe nope. sci fi guy.

asciilifeform: heinlein?

mircea_popescu: nope.

KRS1: my god people you have google and you still get it wrong

nubbins`: foundation, good books

mircea_popescu: yeh

dub: chopra?

mircea_popescu: chopra ?

dub: deepak

mircea_popescu: nah.

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 133 @ 0.00534938 = 0.7115 BTC [-]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 5 @ 0.59999 = 3 BTC [+]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.6 BTC [+]

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