Hide Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2013-10-08 | 2013-10-10 → ↓
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller link to that bet ?
Namworld: Isn't it odd? Bitfinex still around. It's Bitcoinica 2.0 pretty much.
Namworld: Guess they managed to outdo their predecessor.
Lennix1: well namworld I don't want to disillusionate you, but it seems that the only thing Ukto is doing, is watching his pile of bitcoins grow and grow
Namworld: Now to see how long it lasts. I'm curious
kakobrekla: outdo by time
kakobrekla: not by volume
Namworld: Yeah. Well volume is reasonable, but not amazing I guess?
assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!
kakobrekla: ass has it
Namworld: Ukto has been bleeding money on lawyers lately, or so I've heard.
Namworld: And he'll fix the thing and refund fees, any mishaps like this costs him in credibility and trading volume.
mircea_popescu: Namworld in the catatonic state it's in it can last indefinitely. icbit.se is still around too.
Namworld: He had trades working back in order in less than 10 minutes from being notified.
mircea_popescu: was it actually going for the entire day ?
Namworld: Now he has to fix trading fees that were charged
Namworld: Well not the full day. I guess for like a few hours, not sure.
Namworld: Maybe like 6-8 hours
mircea_popescu: couldn't have been that many trades anyone, someone'd have noticed/bitched.
Namworld: Bitfinex volume isn't that low. There's like 1 million usd and 2000 BTC loaned out for margin trading right now.
Namworld: It's bigger than icbit.se if I'm not mistaken.
Namworld: icbit.se volume is incredibly low AFAIK?
kakobrekla: aha finex has a new page
Namworld: They changed the interface. It's quite decent now.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 10 @ 1.239 = 12.39 BTC [-]
Namworld: Volume is a bit bigger than before. I'd say it's decent.
Namworld: Well there's enough liquidity for it to work for any margin trader.
Namworld: I'm just too afraid to use it knowing they used Bitcoinica's source code.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 9 @ 1.20246666 = 10.8222 BTC [-] {2}
Namworld: Also pretty much stole their source code...
mod6: dont get zhou tonged
Namworld: Pretty much
Namworld: Still, I'm impressed
Namworld: They didn't get owned so far
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 1.17 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 200 @ 0.00290019 = 0.58 BTC [-] {5}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 400 @ 0.001055 = 0.422 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2700 @ 0.00083991 = 2.2678 BTC [-] {2}
dub: do they have backups?
Namworld: I put like 12000 USD back in April selling at 150-160, made a few hundreds in interest, bought back BTC at 90-95 USD, withdrew BTC. Now I have a few hundreds USD in lending lol.
Namworld: Arf, forgot about that
Namworld: They claim daily backup and offline wallet
dub: I had forgoten btc on ozcoin until it got stolen
mircea_popescu: Namworld i can confidently say their volume is < 100 btc.
mircea_popescu: anyone can print any numbers they want on their own website.
Namworld: They have 10000 BTC according to their website stats (1 million USD + 2000 BTC)
Namworld: Would it really be surprising considering the scam IPOs which collected far more?
dub: story checks out
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 200 @ 0.0029 = 0.58 BTC [-]
Diablo-D3: well, I guess thats the end of the DMC buyback.
kakobrekla: go back to glbse
mircea_popescu: except the scams didn't collect far more, they claimed to have collected far more.
mircea_popescu: which is generally and universally a very easy claim to make.
Namworld: What happens with that?
kakobrekla: they did collect more than 10k
kakobrekla: the scams
mircea_popescu: anyway, im off to bed. nn & gl.
Namworld: True, true. Like LetsDice IPO
Namworld: Probably most of the BTC was invested by owners
Namworld: "invested"
assbot: Just-Dice stat: 1191 BTC profit, 56.1k BTC invested, 162.93 mio bets, 4.01 mio BTC wagered
Namworld: Just fake demand
Namworld: JD has 40x Coinroll's BTC wagered and like 1.25x Coinroll's profit on same house edge.
Namworld: Nakowa took it all
kakobrekla: anyone got a clue how is sdice doing
Namworld: idk, make a script and scout the blockchain for said clue
kakobrekla: i think theres new phishing email going around
kakobrekla: >This mail was sent your account. FBI Shuts Down 'Silk Road' Online Now Bitcointallk.org Warning Situation Your donation can support this https://bitcointalk.org Now that this news is true we need the help of people who are willing to help us with your donation, you can do this and to support our staff at a time that is happening now, we are in need during the donation and therefore call and ask for help much as you can for technical updat
kakobrekla: > improvements to our Projects and support the future of Scene Bitcoin Bitcoin: 1YiyQPSR656jLZAU7oEnpcxBZTvAFU8uU Litecoin: LfDKcZHUuQKrr14pt5iBuPnsWRUiFcSzYo if you send just 0.1 or some btc to wallet you very help us Your donation can support this peace thanx for sent your btc
dub: loool
dub: sad part is if these fucks could find someone that speaks english that shit would probably yield with 80% of the forum tards
Namworld: Any scam mails would yield like 100x better results if proper English was used...
Namworld: I guess illiteracy and staying poor goes hand in hand.
CopperWireBeard: You no right!
nubbins`: ;;later tell mircea_popescu check your email when you get a chance; further evidence as to why i leave the artwork to others ;(
gribble: The operation succeeded.
nubbins`: oh hey a new personal message from the bitcointalk.org forums!
nubbins`: i better get some btc ready to send
nubbins`: oh, it was actually a legit message, now i feel silly
KRS1: Idk scammers from Nigeria do rather well.
KRS1: and they're actually quite pleasant and polite. Can't say the same for those form Somalia.
kakobrekla: yeah those are snakes!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3300 @ 0.00084793 = 2.7982 BTC [+] {2}
nubbins`: time for bed!
ozbot: [BitFunder] Asset Exchange Marketplace + Rewritable Options Trading
Diablo-D3: can someone tell me where hes quoting that from?
Diablo-D3: oh I found it
Diablo-D3: its actually on the damned website
dub: I like how theymos hasn't mentioned the hack or recommended changing passwords in any comms to users
dub: dude is a stand up guy
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 1.135 = 2.27 BTC [-] {2}
mod6: well if he doesn't mention it, i guess it never happened.
ozbot: [BitFunder] Diablo Mining Company [shifting gears]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6900 @ 0.00084451 = 5.8271 BTC [-]
Diablo-D3: dub: because there wasnt a hack
Maraneth: Hello
Diablo-D3: it was just government interference
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6800 @ 0.00083952 = 5.7087 BTC [-] {2}
Maraneth: Does anyone know how to change passthrough shares into direct shares?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 766 @ 0.00083949 = 0.643 BTC [-]
dub: Diablo-D3: wat
Namworld: Void? What about the holdings? You can't pocket them for yourself.
Namworld: This logic is flawed. Any entity wishing to comply to regulations should attempt to close properly. Which certainly doesn't entail voiding existing contracts and pocketing assets. That may only hurt your plans.
Namworld: Auction assets and do a forced buyback.
Namworld: Should be short and expeditive.
Namworld: Complying involves typically excluding further investments from non-eligible investors and proper closure. Not voiding and keeping assets.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 400 @ 0.00083921 = 0.3357 BTC [-]
Namworld: Isn't your identity known? If you just pocket DMC's assets like that... Not going to look nice.
Namworld: That kind of behavior would actually look really bad...
dub: what assets?
Namworld: Should be around 300 ASICMINER-PT left among others
Namworld: Was a 11 DMC to 1 ASICMINER-PT conversion and should be good for about all outstanding shares
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 150 @ 0.00106601 = 0.1599 BTC [-] {3}
Namworld: Plus some other assets that could be considered pretty much valueless.
dub: I guess thats something
Namworld: Something like 40'000 USD
dub: you're right about the rest though, the days of play exchanges are over
Namworld: I recommend liquidation and payout to all holders and close.
Namworld: Easy to sell ASICMINERs and auction the other stuff.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 1448 @ 0.00113839 = 1.6484 BTC [+] {4}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 1600 @ 0.00025 = 0.4 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 622 @ 0.00024992 = 0.1555 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 3104 @ 0.00023489 = 0.7291 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 2043 @ 0.00021474 = 0.4387 BTC [-] {5}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 7957 @ 0.00020005 = 1.5918 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 644 @ 0.00019997 = 0.1288 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 2747 @ 0.000185 = 0.5082 BTC [-] {3}
Diablo-D3: [02:27:41] <Namworld> Void? What about the holdings? You can't pocket them for yourself.
Diablo-D3: Namworld: no, but the company is free to keep them in the company's pocket.
Diablo-D3: Namworld: dont worry, DMC has not been critically injured in vain.
Diablo-D3: It'll be back.
Diablo-D3: Namworld: and if you're worried about your shares of your asset, you can have them.
Diablo-D3: Namworld: all 106 shares of BTC-MINING are yours.
Diablo-D3: its what you wanted, anyways, and I dont see amazingrando ever being brought to justice
dub: lol
Diablo-D3: Namworld: if you think Im just going to run from the SEC, Im not.
Diablo-D3: Namworld: but DMC was never created merely to make money. It was created for much grander purposes.
Diablo-D3: Namworld: oh, dont get me wrong, it made lots of money, all of which ended up in investor's hands
Diablo-D3: Namworld: but dont say shit like "you're running off with company assets"
Diablo-D3: No, I'm funding a war against those who want to see Bitcoin fail.
dub: DMC: The war against failure
pankkake: are you saying DMC won't Run?
phish: lol
Diablo-D3: pankkake: at least you used that for a joke
Diablo-D3: I mean, where DMC is going, we don't need roads.
pankkake: hehehe
ThickAsThieves: off a cliff?
Diablo-D3: ThickAsThieves: no, but I tend on pushing the SEC off one
pankkake: don't be mean, Diablo might cry
Namworld: You still can't take DMC's assets
Diablo-D3: Namworld: good. Im not.
Diablo-D3: DMC is retaining them as per the shareholder contract.
Namworld: No, because you're voiding shares. It's effectively theft.
Diablo-D3: Namworld: no, effectively the SEC has done this.
Diablo-D3: I'm only complying.
Namworld: You can't arbitrarily void them. SEC would agree it wasn't done properly. But you can't void past actions.
ThickAsThieves: While I wasn't around for the earlier offenses, it does seem that DMC always manages to find a the worst way to manage its assets
Diablo-D3: No, but shareholders also have no right to the assets as per the contract.
Diablo-D3: ThickAsThieves: not at all. for the majority of DMC's life, its been almost entirely invested in AM
ThickAsThieves: So, tell me, what will this move afford you for DMC's future?
Namworld: No right to assets, but you don't either.
Diablo-D3: ThickAsThieves: the only failures have been Namworld's BTC-MINING and yochdog's BTCMC
Namworld: You can keep it running as it is right now or liquidate and force buyout.
ThickAsThieves: just auction the assets
ThickAsThieves: pretty simple
Diablo-D3: ThickAsThieves: not viable.
Diablo-D3: ThickAsThieves: and theres virtually no assets lefct
ThickAsThieves: i assume anything other than what youve chose is 'not viable'
Diablo-D3: Namworld helped amazingrando run off with 106 BTC
Namworld: There's ASICMINERs left.
Diablo-D3: yochdog is in the process of liquidation
ThickAsThieves: meh, i'm not sure why i got into this conversation
ThickAsThieves: surely it will only be a chore
Diablo-D3: ThickAsThieves: I dont know either. You dont own any DMC afaik.
Diablo-D3: Namworld: you clearly think the contract says something it doesn't.
ozbot: Reasonable man theory legal definition of Reasonable man theory. Reasonable man theory synonyms by t
dub: <DMC> its like that, and thats the way it is
Namworld: It doesn't need to. If you sell share in a company and then void shares and get away with it all...
Namworld: It's theft.
Namworld: The no rights to asset clause is merely an indication that we can't directly make a claim on the asset. Not that the manager can take those assets for himself/other endeavours.
Namworld: They remain in DMC and DMC holders are entitled to income/profit. Or in case of activity ceasing, 100% of liquidation value.
ThickAsThieves: ;;ticker
gribble: MtGox BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 137.72001, Best ask: 138.49968, Bid-ask spread: 0.77967, Last trade: 137.72001, 24 hour volume: 8146.15003935, 24 hour low: 135.80000, 24 hour high: 139.50000, 24 hour vwap: 137.54397
ThickAsThieves: ;;nethash
gribble: 1605753.10322
Namworld: That's certainly not a proper way to close down.
Namworld: Liquidating and distributing would probably greatly reduce liabilities.
Namworld: Voiding those shares is a silly idea.
ThickAsThieves: particularly if he expects anyone to ever invest in his efforts in the future
ThickAsThieves: though that ship has likely sailed
Namworld: Well I assume it would have to be non-BTC investors. But good luck pulling it off using stolen assets to jumpstart it.
ThickAsThieves: hmm, shouldnt DMC be frozen at this point?
Namworld: Probably
Diablo-D3: Namworld: it already is afaik
Diablo-D3: er, ThickAsThieves
Diablo-D3: I think ukyo said hes freezing all american assets
ThickAsThieves: you need to freeze it yourself
ThickAsThieves: he's not doing that stuff til the 1st
Namworld: Diablo-D3, you can't close DMC like that and you know it.
Diablo-D3: dont think I can
Diablo-D3: Namworld: as per the contract, I actually can.
ThickAsThieves: Issuer > Edit Profile > Options
Namworld: As per the contract, you can't
Namworld: There's no clause allowing you to reallocate assets to other people or void shares.
Namworld: You're killing off any chance you have at DMC 2.0
Diablo-D3: Namworld: assets have not been reallocated.
Diablo-D3: Namworld: nor has DMC been closed.
Namworld: They have. Shares have been voided.
Diablo-D3: You seem to be confused.
Diablo-D3: Shares of DMC do not make DMC exist.
biteesak: ;;bc,24hprc
gribble: 127.94
Diablo-D3: DMC exists independently of shares existing.
Namworld: If DMC doesn't exist, the transfer of funds for that inexisting company sure took place.
Diablo-D3: If DMC doesn't exist, then what are we discussing exactly?
Diablo-D3: Because I'm pretty sure it exists.
ThickAsThieves: without the shares and holdings, DMC arguably does not exist
ThickAsThieves: since it does nothing
Namworld: I said "If", which is not the case. Even if DMC wasn't properly registered, the contract exist and is valid.
Diablo-D3: ThickAsThieves: companies that do nothing frequently exist.
Diablo-D3: Namworld: yes, and the contract states shares have no claim to the assets unless the company is closing, thus assets would be liquidated
Diablo-D3: Namworld: DMC is not closing.
Namworld: It occured. Your identity is known. There's tracks of the whole ordeal. You're arbitrarily voiding DMC 1.0 shares and taking the assets to start and sell shares in DMC 2.0
Diablo-D3: Namworld: no, no shares in DMC 2.0 will ever exist.
Diablo-D3: that would just be playing into the SEC's game
Namworld: Well funding will exist.
Diablo-D3: Yes, funding by people who meet SEC accreditation.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 1979 @ 0.00286784 = 5.6755 BTC [-] {7}
Diablo-D3: Which I believe no one in the Bitcoin community can meet.
Diablo-D3: Namworld: I dont think you realize how dangerous the SEC currently is to America.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 521 @ 0.00285103 = 1.4854 BTC [-]
Namworld: One complaint about it and good luck managing to get any funding for DMC 2.0 in any sort of legal way. The fact DMC 1.0 shares were sold to non-accredited people doesn't give you any legal basis to void them.
Namworld: You know it.
Diablo-D3: Namworld: You can claim what you want.
Diablo-D3: But DMC has no USD denominated assets, nor physical assets.
Diablo-D3: What DMC has is virtual assets paid for using virtual money.
Namworld: Doesn't matter that there's no USD assets. That just means it might be hard/impossible to seize. Not that no wrongdoings would be found.
Diablo-D3: Paid for by people who I believe were in on this scam from the beginning.
Diablo-D3: And then dragged me into it using lies.
Diablo-D3: So, I'm washing my hands of this.
Diablo-D3: When the SEC comes, it will be all up to the rest of you to deal with.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 1000 @ 0.0028018 = 2.8018 BTC [-] {7}
ozbot: National Parks Closed For Annual Remajestification | The Onion - America's Finest News Source
Diablo-D3: Namworld: I mean, you don't even have a right to even have this argument with me
Diablo-D3: "amazingrando stole all the money, oh well"
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 1499 @ 0.0027001 = 4.0474 BTC [-] {6}
Namworld: That Nefario lied to you doesn't discharge you from responsibilities to DMC 1.0 holders. You know it. What's been done is done.
Diablo-D3: You owe DMC 106 BTC, far more than your shares in DMC are worth.
ozbot: Crowdfunding: With JOBS Act Title II, the web will ‘eat financing and investing’ | VentureBeat
Namworld: I owe only what BTC-MINING has in assets, nothing. You can go after me for mismanagement or whatever else.
Diablo-D3: bitesak: people close to the matter have already admitted its going to be worthless
Namworld: Just like you owe DMC 1.0 holders DMC 1.0's assets.
Diablo-D3: Namworld: but you dont get it, do you
Diablo-D3: Im not going after you because I've admitted that you were in on it.
Namworld: in on what?
Diablo-D3: Same with yochdog, he knew what he was going to do since day one
Diablo-D3: who knows how much money he made off with.
Namworld: Ah, accusations, you say?
Diablo-D3: But DMC's two largest assets? btc-mining and btcmc.
Diablo-D3: two of which can never be liquidated because, frankly, they don't exist.
Diablo-D3: And I don't think they ever did.
ozbot: BitBet - DMS will still be traded at the end of 2013
Diablo-D3: But I'm washing my hands of this
Diablo-D3: DMC cannot afford to sue.
Namworld: They did exist. They all do. What you propose is theft, pure and simple.
Diablo-D3: What I propose has already been completed after a year of babysitting it.
dub: whats DMS?
Diablo-D3: Namworld: I'll tell you one thing though
Diablo-D3: Namworld: when the SEC asks you to do something, you don't discuss it with others, you just do it.
Diablo-D3: Namworld: and its in your best interest to just do it.
ThickAsThieves: SEC told someone to do something?
Diablo-D3: ThickAsThieves: the SEC has told a lot of someones to do something.
ThickAsThieves: so wise, this man
Namworld: Well the SEC might disagree with you arbitrarily voiding shareholders who sent you funds. SEC wants compliance, they don't say "Well all that occured without us never existed, don't sweat it."
Diablo-D3: Namworld: This discussion is over.
Diablo-D3: The shareholder contract has not been violated, more than 100% of shareholder funds have been returned.
Namworld: To some, while others get nothing?
Namworld: You get away with all the extra DMC 1.0 made?
Namworld: If I'm not mistaken, DMC 1.0 as per contract is entitled to all those profits that were made over initial investment.
Diablo-D3: Namworld: DMC has made no extra, and ends in debt.
ThickAsThieves: I used to trade and hold DMC, then I read trilema articles from back in the day
Diablo-D3: Namworld: you are in error.
Diablo-D3: ThickAsThieves: yes, like, mp knows anything about stocks.
Namworld: In debt? How so?
Diablo-D3: Namworld: money owed to DMC exceeds what DMC has in "assets" (if you can call them that)
Namworld: Unless DMC "OWES SOMETHING TO SOMEONE", it's not in debt.
Namworld: That's the reverse, some are in debt to DMC, DMC is not in debt.
Namworld: DMC made a profit.
Diablo-D3: DMC made a very small profit.
Diablo-D3: And it took over 2 and a half years to even get that far.
Diablo-D3: DMC ends in failure.
Namworld: Still a profit. Holders are entitled to it.
Diablo-D3: Thats just the way it is.
Diablo-D3: Yes, and holders were paid it, in full.
Namworld: No, assets remain
Namworld: They were not paid in full.
Namworld: In fact, some weren't repaid at all.
Diablo-D3: Read the contract.
Namworld: I read it already.
Diablo-D3: Each share represents 0% of the ownership in the company assets. In the event of liquidation, 100% of the revenue from sales of the assets and 100% of the growth fund, minus any expenses incurred from the operation or liquidation of the company will be paid to shareholders.
Diablo-D3: So tell me, Namworld, what does that paragraph say
Namworld: No liquidation occured. So assets remain with DMC and still pay out dividends. Hundreds of ASICMINER left.
ThickAsThieves: it says you will liquidate assets and payout the profit
Diablo-D3: Namworld: notice the line about dividends
Diablo-D3: 1) 50% of all mining revenue will be distributed to shareholders in the form of dividends (henceforth referred to as "dividends"). These dividends will be paid monthly, split evenly among all shares regardless of class or issuing date.
Diablo-D3: There has been no mining revenue... ever.
Diablo-D3: In the history of DMC.
Namworld: Well then, DMC's assets are stuck in DMC, idling. You still can't repurpose them for DMC 2.0
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3947 @ 0.00083997 = 3.3154 BTC [+] {3}
Diablo-D3: Namworld: I can repurpose them for DMC to remain in DMC.
Namworld: Then you can't void DMC 1.0 holders
Diablo-D3: Nothing in the contract prohibits that.
Namworld: Nothing in the contract allows you to either.
biteesak: this does not seem very honest..
Namworld: Thus you cannot void 1.0 holders arbitrarily.
Diablo-D3: bitesak: what the entire community has done isnt very honest
biteesak: so the opportunity to stick out is rather big
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4550 @ 0.00084191 = 3.8307 BTC [+] {3}
Diablo-D3: Namworld: Fine, hows this.
Diablo-D3: DMC is now closed. The expenses incurred from the operation and liquidation of the company is the current value of all assets.
Diablo-D3: I shall now pay out the final sum total of BTC: 0.
Diablo-D3: It has now been paid.
Namworld: So, could you please tell me what those expenses are? Because I know there's ASICMINERs left and liquidating those on the market would cost almost nothing.
Diablo-D3: Namworld: payment to the CEO for doing his job.
Diablo-D3: Which makes me the lowest paid CEO in the history of business.
biteesak: is that the best you can do ?
Namworld: I'd have to say, quite possibly the worst move one could do if they want to start a proper business requiring the funding you're seeking.
Diablo-D3: Namworld: Im not even sure if Im going to.
Diablo-D3: Namworld: making a profit means basically 60% of the money goes to the government
Diablo-D3: unless you're just so large you can get away without paying taxes
Diablo-D3: which I doubt any company in this industry will ever become
Diablo-D3: Namworld: so whats the point of building a company if the rich can just steal it all anyhow
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2628 @ 0.00083919 = 2.2054 BTC [-]
Diablo-D3: Namworld: I just don't see the point of the startup game anymore.
Diablo-D3: The government changes the rules to suit themselves, everyone is out to cheat steal and lie, and a tiny fraction of a percent ever win.
biteesak: so might as well do the same whenever possible
Diablo-D3: Namworld: I'm sorry DMC did not succeed, but thats the way it is.
Namworld: So your answer is to act like the government but against government regulation to open DMC 2.0 as per government regulation??
Namworld: That's a bit fucked up.
Diablo-D3: Namworld: like I said, DMC 2.0 may not happen.
Diablo-D3: This whole experience has left a bad taste in my mouth.
Namworld: And if DMC 2.0 does not happen, why not close down by liquidating what's left and doing a forced buyback as per contract?
dub: its the libertarian dream
dub: fuck everyone because taxes
Namworld: I know it's been bad. But I haven't taken any salary either for fixing the aftermath as best as I could.
Diablo-D3: Namworld: Because I have decided, thanks to you, that this is the cost of DMC in the end.
Diablo-D3: It doesn't pay to be the nice guy always trying to do the right thing.
Namworld: I'm richer now and trusted. I've made back my losses with amazingrando because people seem to appreciate working with me.
Namworld: I'd say it pays to be nice.
Diablo-D3: So then pay DMC the 106 BTC you owe through BTC-MINING.
Namworld: I can't afford to pay over 1500 BTC.
Diablo-D3: Then thats the way it is.
Namworld: The difference being, in this case, you're admitting to yourself taking the remaining assets.
Namworld: Either keeping for yourself as salary or for DMC 2.0 or whatever.
Namworld: Do as you please, but that's low, compensating yourself like that when shit happen and leaving the others. I hope remaining holders aren't too damaged by that.
Namworld: If you're fed up and just want to take it, no need to feed bullshit arguments that don't hold any credibility.
Diablo-D3: whats the current value of an AM share anyhow?
Namworld: 1 BTC
Namworld: At 1000 AM and 11 DMC to 1 AM trade, there should be a bit over 300 AM or 300 BTC left.
Namworld: With over 3000 DMC left outstanding
Namworld: Wow, more than I thought.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1622 @ 0.00083919 = 1.3612 BTC [-]
Namworld: It's no effort auctioning/selling the remaining assets to highest bidder and paying out liquidation to current shareholders for a closing as per contract.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5225 @ 0.00084096 = 4.394 BTC [+] {2}
Diablo-D3: Namworld: there, I edited the final notice as per your requests.
Namworld: Suit yourself
Diablo-D3: Namworld: how many shares of DMC do you have left?
Namworld: Not sure.
Diablo-D3: go find out.
Namworld: Yes, that's what I was checking.
Diablo-D3: go find out if you can still transfer shares to me while the asset is locked
Namworld: I haven't had a single holder before today which claimed that I owed them something, that made accusations or complained at all.
Diablo-D3: Ill trade you them for 42 AM.
Namworld: Hmm, let me do a counter proposal...
Namworld: I'll transfer them to you, nothing asked in return, on the condition you liquidate and payout the remaining holders.
Namworld: I want to see DMC's assets be properly liquidated and paid out.
Diablo-D3: Namworld: nope, Ill do it for 11:1 AM.
Diablo-D3: which Im still offering to shareholders.
Namworld: You're still offering it? You said all shares were void if I'm not mistaken.
Diablo-D3: did you not read the edit?
Namworld: Ah, I see the corrections. Assets will not be repurposed for DMC 2.0 hmm
dexX7: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77469.msg3289371#msg3289371 was edited to "As per the shareholder contract, DMC is now closing and liquidating."
ozbot: Diablo Mining Company
Namworld: Yes, that's satisfactory.
Diablo-D3: Namworld: but whats left of DMC _will_ resolve its debt to me.
Namworld: BTCMC/unclaimed AM trade-ins?
Diablo-D3: yes, unless someone offers something worthwhile for the BTCMC
Namworld: I'd quite prefer a proper liquidation.
Diablo-D3: I seriously doubt anyone will offer anything for BTCMC that even comes close to what is owed or what yochdog claims is left
Namworld: I suppose only AM holds any actual value right now.
Namworld: Very well.
Diablo-D3: I think I calculated that if yochdog cant find a buyer for the hardware, its basically worth about 1.5BTC
Diablo-D3: maybe 2 or 3 if he does
Namworld: You should probably mention the 11:1 trading prominently however.
Diablo-D3: Namworld: cant mention it any more prominently than it is
Namworld: Shares transfered.
Namworld: Well it is more prominent now indeed.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4750 @ 0.00084316 = 4.005 BTC [+] {2}
Diablo-D3: there, I think thats the final edit.
Diablo-D3: Namworld: whats the email you gave to friedcat/
Namworld: I have none I think. Well I auctioned my ASICMINERs long ago...
Namworld: Not sure if he still has it.
Namworld: Let me PM the email to you anyway.
Namworld: ok, well I'm off for now. This has dragged on quite late. Good night.
Diablo-D3: Namworld: I sent the PM to friedcat
Namworld: Thank you.
dexX7: Diablo-D3: considering you wanted to void all shares, i must say it's a honorable move to change your mind and offer the 1:11 exchange
ThickAsThieves: good on him, but to be fair that is the way it was before
dexX7: that's a different topic
Diablo-D3: I have no clue how long I can offer it though
Diablo-D3: At the very most, its less than 30 days (nov 1st)
Diablo-D3: but bitfunder could just glbse tommorow
Namworld: Well if they keep to their word, only purchasing more assets will be halted for US residents.
ThickAsThieves: that already is the case
Diablo-D3: Namworld: prepare for the worst.
ThickAsThieves: it's the selling that goes dark on the 1st
Namworld: Withdrawing/redeeming shares/etc will be accomodated with as much as possibe.
Namworld: Hopefully it works long enough for things to close down as best as possible.
Diablo-D3: btw, Im wondering what the biggest remaining shareholders will do
Diablo-D3: one guy has 550, one guy has 1774
Diablo-D3: those two could put a serious dent in the remaining shares
dub: they could put a serious dent in the evolutionary process if allowed to breed too
Namworld: They can claim 211 AM
Diablo-D3: Namworld: you missed the point
Namworld: Ah, you mean in outstanding shares
Diablo-D3: ;;calc 3947 - 1774 - 550 - 456
gribble: 1167
Diablo-D3: that seems wrong
Diablo-D3: there isn't enough left
Diablo-D3: ;;calc 1167 - 144 - 100 - 91
gribble: 832
Diablo-D3: yeah, theres no way theres 832 left
Diablo-D3: ;;calc 1167 - 144 - 100 - 91 - 107
gribble: 725
Diablo-D3: yeah no way
ozbot: Inside Bitcoins Conference to Be Held in Las Vegas, Jered Kenna Will be Keynote Speaker | Forex Minu
Diablo-D3: Namworld: Im going to laugh if I find out bitfunder fucked up the count
jurov: "With 20mission, Jered Kenna aims to foster a collaborative living environment for startup executives, developers, designers and artists." sooo gay
ThickAsThieves: "He is one of the most eloquent speakers in the Bitcoin economy."
Diablo-D3: ;;calc 3947 - 456
gribble: 3491
Diablo-D3: ;;calc 430 - 32
gribble: 398
Diablo-D3: ;;calc 430 - 42
gribble: 388
dexX7: ;;calc 430 - 3947 / 11
gribble: 71.1818181818
dub: who ever heard of living with the people you work with anyway
Diablo-D3: dub: yeah, thats like
dub: its an entirely retarded prospect
Diablo-D3: marrying your cofounder
dub: unless you market is homeless fucktards like taaki
Diablo-D3: YO DAWG, I HEARD YOU LIKE WOMEN AND COFOUNDERS, SO I MADE YOUR COFOUNDER A WOMAN, SO YOU CAN FUCK HER WHILE YOU GIVE HER THE SHAFT
mod6: haha
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4100 @ 0.00084415 = 3.461 BTC [+] {3}
BingoBoingo: So, Buttfunder is dead before I could even make money on a Bitbet for that shit.
Diablo-D3: basically
Namworld: Correction, until further notice, it only stops servicing US customers and requires ID.
Namworld: I guess that's synonymous to dead tho
Namworld: Well I've had enough of all this. Off to sleep. Will probably close my PTs and the rest and only leave my loan active, perhaps.
Namworld: I prefer to manage only something on which I have a clear 100% responsibility on no matter what.
Namworld: Easier and straightforward
Namworld: Good night.
BingoBoingo: Eh, It's taken me too long being on IRC to find the right Buttfunder joke. I'm kind of enjoying the Irony that 'Muricans that despise MPEx and MP that despises 'Muricans seem like they are going to have to get along some way. Probably in a way that involves 'Muricans learning options because MPEx ain't getting LabCoin, but still.
BingoBoingo: It is Fall 2012 all over again.
Diablo-D3: happens about every year
BingoBoingo: Diablo-D3: I wouldn't be surprised if it accelerates in the next year where even moar dispoasable exchanges pop up.
BingoBoingo: It seems at this rate Meni Rosenfield will be able to raise 5KbTC capital on UsagiFunder before Thanksgiving.
mircea_popescu: in other news : today we will have the S.NSA first product announcement.
bitesak: great
KRS-: Meni makes a lovely Musaca.
mircea_popescu: every pirate ship needs a good cook ?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [XBOND] [PAID] 0.69348300 BTC to 1`386`966 shares, 50 satoshi per share
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Please I've been waiting on it. I have already bet on it. Only donation m blog received so far got rolled into the Yes of this: http://bitbet.us/bet/545/no-such-labs-higher-market-cap-than-s-mg/ because fuck invesitng or hedging. Let the betting begin,
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 1.11001 = 2.22 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo lolwhat a concept.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I don't have enough fingers to count how many bitbets I have been nearly all of both sides. I don't know what pankkake is smoking about yall abing slective.
mircea_popescu: wait srsly ?! betting with yourself ?
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Yes, That is the beauty of mutual betting. Betting with myself until other people in the market correct the odds as they do so well.
mircea_popescu: interesting. is it productive over all these many bets ? or even been keeping track ?
mircea_popescu: i guess it wouldn't take that much to cover the 1% bitbet rakes.
BingoBoingo: The latest example is here where I am all of the yes and a good portion of the no. I could lose on a no, but it would be covered by http://bitbet.us/bet/113/bitbet-will-we-worth-more-than-satoshi-dice/ winnings.
BingoBoingo: Linking errors and mistypes are a peril, but for whom?
mircea_popescu: for everyone involved
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo o right, you were doing sports picks on your blog i recall
mircea_popescu: well, bitbet can certainly use more of that.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Well, If the Cardinal win the World series... I can probably find some BitBets on Bowl Games.
BingoBoingo: Then again I've also spoiled the line bets on forum advertised picks because I was too late. Also because fuck bookies.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 37 @ 0.0094001 = 0.3478 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I did sports picks on the blog, but my method is strictly just eyeballing match ups before I have the opportunity to form a real opinion. I may be a shutty method, but it has served me well. Who knows what I could achieve if only I had a monkey and a dart board.
mircea_popescu: go to the bookies in your town, get one to back you.
mircea_popescu: maybe throw in a dartboard
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5450 @ 0.0008408 = 4.5824 BTC [-] {2}
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: LoL, I'd have to go to Vegas... This whole Illinois and/or Missouri being the most corrupt state in the union deal. They won't allow house edges lower than the sanctioned lotto offers. And so I plan to keep doing to line betting sites what it did to that Blockbet.net place which mysteriously disappeared sometime around the NCAA basketball tournament.
BingoBoingo: Pretty sure I didn't kill it with basketball though.
BingoBoingo: If my ever so faulty memory serves me right they lifted lines from Vegas books for the World Baseball Classic. They completely forgot the part where the house vig was supposed to cover their trouble and not be a contributing factor to money they would bleed when the serious gamblers caught them in the ncaa tournament.
BingoBoingo: I file the incident under reasons I don't buy mining equipment.
mircea_popescu: so basically wait wait just a second here.
mircea_popescu: are you saying the site FAKED its supposed bust, because it was betting its own book and lost ?
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Honestly that is how I think Blockbet.net went down.
mircea_popescu: add another reason to "why not use random line betting btc site sprouted after last week's rain"
mircea_popescu: i did think the "bust" was a little suspicious.
BingoBoingo: If I were into Bitcoin both earlier and stupider I can't say I wouldn't have tried something similar, but GPG contacts and all
BingoBoingo: If dorks ever realized how much power they could get from simply having old, long GPG keys...
BingoBoingo: I also ripped into solar wind mining again, because it is their fault http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2013/10/09/a-sample-gpg-signature/
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13400 @ 0.0008476 = 11.3578 BTC [+] {6}
ozbot: The NSA's Hugely Expensive Utah Data Center Has Major Electrical Problems And Basically Isn't Workin
BingoBoingo: Who would have anticipated giant Faraday cages could also be giant antennas?
BingoBoingo: Also apparently Google has been hiding their GPG wizardry this whole time: https://services.google.com/corporate/publickey.txt
kleeck: .d
ozbot: 189281249.28103 | Next Diff in 1517 blocks | Estimated Change: 17.4643% in 8d 16h 39m 31s
mircea_popescu: bitesak lmao
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo that's not new by any means.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Maybe not to you, but I've been wondering why the gmail address I dump all my ciphertext to isn't getting cipher text in my notifications from them.
mircea_popescu: a well. dif story :)
mircea_popescu: so basically the nsa has created the world's largest bug zapper
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Aren't they all. Except that pointless and whitless one?
mircea_popescu: and is using it on its own techs
mircea_popescu: bugs that they are.
jurov: if nsa repurposed the DC to bitcoin mining, no wonder
BingoBoingo: I'm just wondering how much data their zapper lst that they actually wanted.
BingoBoingo: Like Tor I imagine it wasn't all of it, but enough of it to clear two or three people.
BingoBoingo: I've seen yesterday's posts about random wanabee deaers getting busted. I wanted to make a post about retain a fucking lawyer now. Everystory I read about actual Silk Road people involve to much stupid though.
nubbins`: why retain a lawyer when you can just sell a bunch of coke instead?
BingoBoingo: nubbins`: Case you can get a lawyer to just make bail for cheap. Then if you get busted have the good one keep you out of jail.
nubbins`: i was joking :(
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 1.11001 = 2.22 BTC [-]
nubbins`: i know a guy who got busted a couple of years ago
BingoBoingo: nubbins`: This is IRC everyone is joking, or incredibly serious.
nubbins`: he didn't retain a lawyer
nubbins`: and now he's not allowed to drink, do drugs, or leave his house
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 10 @ 0.011 = 0.11 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: nubbins`: Fuck him them. My drive through law trick must be a miracle man then (and this is the dude I didn't trust beyond making my bail).
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 1.11001 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: Have any of yall been on TradeFortress's network CoinChat, because I am running out of ways to call RealSolid and scammy fuck and Mcxnow something to avoid at all costs.
bitesak: somehow I feel the next announcement on s.NSA will inspire more than the bug zapper NSA story
mircea_popescu: best learn teh law.
bitesak: mircea_popescu, have you stopped using twitter for mpex feed ? seems last trade was in june
BingoBoingo: thank you mircea_popescu
ozbot: MPEx (MPEx1) on Twitter
BingoBoingo: bitesak: all of the payment addresses to yes on this bet http://bitbet.us/bet/545/no-such-labs-higher-market-cap-than-s-mg/ actually go to me.
mod6: bitesak: i've got a twit feed going @bitotter
bitesak: thanks
bitesak: BingoBoingo, you mean in the sense you are taking care of the NO side and will reap the YES?
BingoBoingo: bitesake: That is what I have set up now. I am th only yes on that bet, and I could win it simply in the week after IPO.
mircea_popescu: bitesak twitter basically decided i'm spamming them
mircea_popescu: i had been trying to get it "sorted out" but they're kind of unhelpful so... what can i do.
BingoBoingo: bitesak: Let us not forget this gem I sextupled my money on http://bitbet.us/bet/113/bitbet-will-we-worth-more-than-satoshi-dice/ by having simply identified in December Erik was too unreliable to spearhead a public asset backed by a GPG signed contract. For every other bet it is just the same sort of eyeballin'
bitesak: how does that compare to buying shares in S.Bitbet and S.NSA rather than the bitbet venue as the depth seems way bigger the S. way
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Aparently some other asshole has a twitter account in the name BingoBoingo, so I'll have to settle for BingoBlog or something when I get to it.
mircea_popescu: it's not such a great name anyway
mircea_popescu: (contrary to what you may think)
BingoBoingo: bitesak: No particular way other than a gambler. If people want to hedge fuck them because I'm gambling this shit.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Nothing apparently is a good enough name to break some brain wallets.
ozbot: Researchers find new, ultra-low-level method of hacking CPUs – and there’s no way to detect it |
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform for your lolz ^
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2500 @ 0.00084947 = 2.1237 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: It apparently seems that Tor exits have to be honeypots. I've been running on for half of a week and been getting nothing but boring througn MITM attacks. No matter what bandwidth I offer Tor exits, the tor seems to adapt n a way that either recognizes me attacking its exits or suggests it is sucking some NSA dick.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 72 @ 0.011 = 0.792 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CFIG] 1 @ 0.1010375 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CFIG] 6 @ 0.1005001 = 0.603 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [DEALCO] 24 @ 0.007 = 0.168 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: Maybe the next few days will offer something else, but so far I'm finding little more than Iranians who would probably rather the US get their story if only it wasn't so boring.
kleeck: .d
ozbot: 189281249.28103 | Next Diff in 1513 blocks | Estimated Change: 17.2608% in 8d 16h 27m 18s
BingoBoingo: I mean how wide does the "tor foundation" advertise their exit bandwidth being? There is not way I get all of the fringe cases exiting and nothing else if this shit ain't random. I'm probably burning some logs and just advertising Tor as more compromised than imagined.
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell bingoboingo maybe do a full study of the matter and publish the results.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 37 @ 0.011 = 0.407 BTC [-]
nubbins`: sweet! doing a zine workshop next tuesday
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2000 @ 0.0008474 = 1.6948 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 1 @ 0.36101001 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 1.2759999 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2300 @ 0.000849 = 1.9527 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 4 @ 1.2759999 = 5.104 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2612 @ 0.00084947 = 2.2188 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 51 @ 0.01100001 = 0.561 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 26 @ 0.011 = 0.286 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 16 @ 0.01000003 = 0.16 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15953 @ 0.00085049 = 13.5679 BTC [+] {5}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 3325 @ 0.000183 = 0.6085 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 10694 @ 0.000183 = 1.957 BTC [-]
ozbot: London Police Order Registrars To Shut Down A Bunch Of Websites Without Any Legal Basis; Threaten Re
bitesak: conspiracy to defraud seems like an extremely large concept
nubbins`: bitcoin is a pretty large concept
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 6 @ 1.275999 = 7.656 BTC [-]
bitesak: easydns claims to be a NSA-Free Zone :) and actually seems to be standing up to this farce
bitesak: on the bright side, all this inspires the likes of MP & co to develop S.NSA products
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 1.12 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 13 @ 1.10230769 = 14.33 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 5 @ 1.085 = 5.425 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 4 @ 1.060001 = 4.24 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 29 @ 0.01118 = 0.3242 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 15 @ 0.01000268 = 0.15 BTC [-] {2}
nubbins`: joke's on you if S.NSA products have backdoors
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 40 @ 0.01 = 0.4 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 20 @ 0.01000001 = 0.2 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 20 @ 0.01 = 0.2 BTC [-] {2}
_mjoiii: Guys a plea for help...
_mjoiii: Anyone know of a method for tracking the transfers to Havelock?
topace: tracking tranfers ?
_mjoiii: The lack of liquidity there is killing me and I don't see any improvement after recent news.
_mjoiii: Won't us traders be transferring shares there?
topace: quite possibly
_mjoiii: Not 1:1 tacking but just an indication of the progress
topace: to initiate share transfer, follow the instructions for the specific assets
topace: we arent doing any transfers automatically
_mjoiii: No no not me, I've been w Havelock all along and happy to have a Canadian option. Just can't buy or sell much without affecting prices.
_mjoiii: So really looking forward to having more company there.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 637 @ 0.00085195 = 0.5427 BTC [+]
nubbins`: _mjoiii: are you trying to buy or sell? ;)
_mjoiii: Both generally, today thinking of selling some neobee.
_mjoiii: Take look at that book. Sell 2t and it drops to 0.001
_mjoiii: Sorry, 25
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 40 @ 0.01 = 0.4 BTC [-] {2}
nubbins`: yeah, volume is the problem with anything btc-related
nubbins`: only two funds have a 7-day volume > 100 btc
nubbins`: i suppose people coming over from bitfunder & btctctctctctc will change that somewhat
_mjoiii: That is my hope too.
ThickAsThieves: Don't expect too much change
ThickAsThieves: the factbeing that people are moving assets
_mjoiii: Why not?
ThickAsThieves: not coins
ThickAsThieves: this is a turtle market
kakobrekla: "buttfunder & btctctctctctc" - sounds like some strip joint
nubbins`: i always get confused as to what letter it ends on
nubbins`: their fault for putting half the name in the tld
kakobrekla: yeah its extra confusing
ThickAsThieves: so now that we caught up on processing all the migration data, we encountered a technical limitation with Bitfunder and we will have to require ALL TAT.ASICMINER migrators from BTCT to resubmit their info using a Havelock account
kakobrekla: will you still be doing passthroughs?
ThickAsThieves: we haven't made any hard decisions in that regard
ThickAsThieves: we have a decision tree we have to climb through
ThickAsThieves: which requires meetings with various parties about various nuances
ThickAsThieves: there's no simple way to proceed
kakobrekla: i guess that comes with diligence
ThickAsThieves: in the meantime the immediate issues are the shareholders in limbo, and dividends
ThickAsThieves: i have no problem saying that Bitfunder has not made this easy
ThickAsThieves: whereas Havelock has
kakobrekla: Want to play bitcoin? Step 1: Move out of US. Step 2: Done.
ThickAsThieves: it's not even that simple
ThickAsThieves: but that's within the decision tree
topace: :)
ThickAsThieves: we've been working hard behind the scenes to legitimize our role into a real bitcoin investment bank
ThickAsThieves: we have a plan we've been executing
ThickAsThieves: but it does sorta require exchanges to do the same
robitnik: Does "we" include Neo?
robitnik: Or LMB
Jere_Jones: ThickAsThieves: "turtle market"? As in "turtles all the way down"?
ThickAsThieves: we is me, my partner, our team, and our lawyers
ThickAsThieves: turtle as in, hiding in its shell
ThickAsThieves: i figure "bear" market isnt quite fitting
Jere_Jones: Ah. Ok.
Jere_Jones: Nope. Still don't get it.
ThickAsThieves: what do turtles do when they are scared?
ThickAsThieves: shrink into their shell
ThickAsThieves: dont dwell on it too much
Jere_Jones: I think I get it now. Maybe. Back to work for me. :)
nospinzy: you think people would invest in webproperties from flippa
kakobrekla: in wha?
nospinzy: anything
nospinzy: anything that is a good price
nospinzy: and has income
nospinzy: let me find an example
_mjoiii: Does that mean websites?
nospinzy: a fund to buy websites
nospinzy: active websites
ozbot: yourenotstupid.com - Website for Sale on Flippa: PR 3 Affiliate Reviews Site for As Seen On TV Produ
nospinzy: like that for example
_mjoiii: Is the idea to bundle profitable sites and sell units?
nospinzy: no the idea is to run the sites
nospinzy: and pay out a dividen
zoinky: that site brings in 2k a month?
kakobrekla: 2k page views [via bots]
nospinzy: dollars
nospinzy: its an example
nospinzy: i wouldnt invest in that
zoinky: which would you invest in?
_mjoiii: Would be interesting to see portfolio/projections.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 138 @ 0.002 = 0.276 BTC [-]
ThickAsThieves: so basically flippa is website templates pretending to be businesses
mike_c: it is affiliate websites that have stopped being profitable for their owners.
_mjoiii: Except those that are monetized and apparently profitable.
mike_c: who are now trying to make one last buck off them.
zoinky: pretty much
zoinky: its buying toxic websites
_mjoiii: Wondered about that in the past. If their sales pitch is correct, why are they selling?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8100 @ 0.00085206 = 6.9017 BTC [+] {2}
ThickAsThieves: it's a tricky area, as i myself have been in a position before of having profitable things i no longer wanted
ThickAsThieves: sometimes people just wanna move on
ThickAsThieves: or make better money on other things
ThickAsThieves: "Keith, the very first guy Sean's Outpost fed with Bitcoin Died last night"
ThickAsThieves: that's some headline
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 370 @ 0.001161 = 0.4296 BTC [+] {2}
pankkake: conclusion: don't eat Bitcoins
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 544 @ 0.00085209 = 0.4635 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 98 @ 0.00199 = 0.195 BTC [-]
ThickAsThieves: "Ulbricht's public defender said Ulbricht would not protest his detention as he awaits his transfer to New York. He retains the right to pursue bail after he arrives in New York."
ThickAsThieves: public defender?
ThickAsThieves: the thot plickens
kleeck: Jeeze man.
kleeck: Crack that wallet and get some representation.
pankkake: if impossible he could probably easily raise funds for his defense. weird
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2950 @ 0.0008511 = 2.5107 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 61 @ 0.010002 = 0.6101 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 1.0589 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3800 @ 0.00084995 = 3.2298 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 7 @ 1.01575714 = 7.1103 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3500 @ 0.00085209 = 2.9823 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 4 @ 0.95775 = 3.831 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 16 @ 0.0100021 = 0.16 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 98 @ 0.00207 = 0.2029 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.951 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] [PAID] 32.48744832 BTC to 6`684 shares, 486048 satoshi per share
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 487 @ 0.0008521 = 0.415 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 10 @ 0.92476999 = 9.2477 BTC [-] {6}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 10 @ 0.01117 = 0.1117 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 900 @ 0.0008521 = 0.7669 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 1004 @ 0.00118994 = 1.1947 BTC [+] {5}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 53 @ 0.0100021 = 0.5301 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CFIG] 54 @ 0.09661668 = 5.2173 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 695 @ 0.00963942 = 6.6994 BTC [-] {18}
kakobrekla: Meni Rosenfeld. has a new thing
ozbot: Bitblu - crypto investment management
kakobrekla: and ripple guy
pankkake: wait they have a job offer for a third "founder and c?o" lol
mircea_popescu: lol good one
ThickAsThieves: i bet the salary = you get to be a founder!
mircea_popescu: is that the ceo salary ?
mircea_popescu: sometimes it looks like every aluminum siding, vacuum & bible and car salesman is now doing bitcoin.
ThickAsThieves: you'll get a kick out of the headshots for the vegas conference
mircea_popescu: if they get shot in the head they won't be able to have open casket funerals.
kakobrekla: The vision of bitcoin is going to be set at conferences like this.
kakobrekla: —Alan Safahi of ZipZap tells The Wall Street Journal.
mircea_popescu: lmao. jerkoffs will jerkoff.
mircea_popescu: also, zipzap = ziggap or zipzap = clueless fuckwits who have no idea history exists ?
Scrat: circlederp
mircea_popescu: Scrat dude, the "vision". the vision matters! herpes!
jborkl: "More bad luck! My power supply just died! I highly recommend not buying this power supply! http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817152044
jborkl: Off to the store to hopefully find one that isn't an arm and a leg on such short notice."
jborkl: KNC Supernova
mircea_popescu: supernova. nice name.
jborkl: Ty ty
kakobrekla: zipzap is this it seems http://www.zipzapinc.com/
kakobrekla: dunno how is it related to btc
mircea_popescu: so here it is :
ozbot: S.NSA first product - The Cardano pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
mircea_popescu: also, mpex deposits flushed if anyone was waiting.
jcpham: if only my internets worked
jcpham: i could read trilema
mircea_popescu: well, get a government that's not shutdown
mircea_popescu: then maybe your internets'd work.
Kleeck_: yes, the government runs the internetz
mircea_popescu: everything, outdoor monuments, the internets, rain...
Kleeck_: haha
mircea_popescu: best & biggest government in teh whole world! real power rangers those people.
Kleeck_: the fuckin Ocean
Kleeck_: The USG is spending more money trying to prove that the "shutdown" is a big deal.
mircea_popescu: pls to not suggest the govt doth not help and doth not matter,
mircea_popescu: or it's the booby hatch for you.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4258 @ 0.00084941 = 3.6168 BTC [-] {3}
Kleeck_: I wasn't suggesting that at all.
Kleeck_: But the booby hatch sounds nice.
mircea_popescu: that's because you don't know what a boobie is.
Kleeck_: I... I thought I did...
mike_c: what's the target cost for the cardano?
mircea_popescu: it's a... bird.
mircea_popescu: mike_c tba :)
Kleeck_: Yes, and a breast.
Kleeck_: Of, possibly, a female.
kakobrekla: i miss the option of forcing my own key innit
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla yup
mircea_popescu: the 0 1 8 problem. if you can so can someone else. no good.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1500 @ 0.00084933 = 1.274 BTC [-]
kakobrekla: 0 1 8?
mircea_popescu: ;;google zero one infinity
gribble: Zero one infinity rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_one_infinity_rule>; Zero One Infinity Rule: <http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeroOneInfinityRule>; Zero-One-Infinity Rule - Catb.org: <http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/Z/Zero-One-Infinity-Rule.html>
kakobrekla: id live with the fact someone can replace it
kakobrekla: but not read it
mircea_popescu: why's your key so great you want to keep it anyway ? i bet you it wasn't gen'd on hardware rngs for instance.
kakobrekla: its not that i want to keep it
kakobrekla: i just want to define it
mircea_popescu: but whay ?
kakobrekla: so i can keep it!
jborkl: he meant defile it
pankkake: 0 1 ∞
mircea_popescu: you mean keep it as in backup it ?
Namworld: So he can keep using it/store it/transfer it to a replacement device
Namworld: Assuming he got an offline backup
mircea_popescu: one problem i see with this directly is that people will keep insecure copies and then go "o noes someone hacked my cardano and stole my key!11"
Namworld: And keep the Cardano while on the move
mircea_popescu: i think the better solution is to use a master and sign a cardano for the move.
kakobrekla: my copy is on paper and on a safe place
mircea_popescu: sorta use the cardano as a subbie in that context.
kakobrekla: and i want to keep that backup
Namworld: What if the master cardano breaks?
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla well i didn't mean you. i meant people!
Namworld: You're kind of screwed
mircea_popescu: Namworld master doesn't have to be a cardano necessarily.
Namworld: True
mircea_popescu: it can be, sure, but if you don't trust it you can just use it as a sub to your main key which you keep traditionally.
Namworld: Well I suppose that could work
Namworld: Definitly
kakobrekla: yet you cant use it for mpex if you dont have main key
kakobrekla: except if you reg a new key
mircea_popescu: you can as long as you reg it there.
kakobrekla: which is 'disposable'
kakobrekla: which sux
kakobrekla: no way to have backup to mpex acc then
Namworld: If the cardano breaks, you're out of shares and need to pay for a new account.
kakobrekla: if the device breaks
Namworld: No backups
mircea_popescu: well yes, using a device of this type for that purpose seems like you're asking for trouble.
mike_c: the cardano should backup the private key to the cloud.
mike_c: (kidding)
mircea_popescu: sorta like carrying cats in your pant pocket
mircea_popescu: anyway, we'll get a better idea as to how reliable the things are after they've been in the wild a year or two. atm all i can say is they should be pretty reliable.
Vexual: prp?
kakobrekla: yeah its a serious device for serious security but its so serious you cant have backups and so its not usable for serious stuff.
mircea_popescu: it's so secret you can't have backups.
mircea_popescu: this is a frontline itam. you go into enemy territory with it.
mike_c: still.. a straight up better replacement for securID?
mircea_popescu: mike_c i think so.
mircea_popescu: also much better scp than scp.
mircea_popescu: also much better 2fa.
Vexual: i like the faraday cage bit
mircea_popescu: in principle you could design your garage door/house door to take a usb stick
mircea_popescu: and just open them with a purpose cardano.
Vexual: a thin lead case perhaps, so one can be sure it's in ones pocket
mircea_popescu: whiuch, even if someome smacks you over the head, can't be cloned
mircea_popescu: because no backup
kakobrekla: so they just terminate you on spot
kakobrekla: without giving you a chance!
mircea_popescu: carry a bigger stick.
mircea_popescu: Cardano on a stick!
Vexual: my solar storm has begun
mike_c: another question you won't answer yet (even though potential investors would love to know), target release date?
mike_c: 2013? 14? 15?
mike_c: well, not 13.
mircea_popescu: mike_c should be here before xmas, so you can all make nice gifts to peopkle.
mike_c: no way
mike_c: wow
Vexual: how much?
mike_c: he's not saying yet
bitesak: Good evening ! will these devices be assembled in Romania?
mircea_popescu: bitesak they shall be assembled at a secret & undisclosed set of locartions
Vexual: made in notchina
mircea_popescu: for teh obvious reasons.
mircea_popescu: Vexual nah, it's not oursourced.
mircea_popescu: we're actually making it.
Vexual: wise
jborkl: mircea - you in the pool with those guys
mircea_popescu: jborkl umm i can't read that stuff, what's it say ?
jborkl: I am just looking at the picture'
mircea_popescu: yeah. im the duck.
jborkl: I wonder why it is 3 white dudes and one mexican dude mining at a chinese pool?
jborkl: with martinis
jborkl: and a rubber ducky
Vexual: not a mexican, just a rich dude with a tan
jborkl: that one has the least amount of btc
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 12 @ 0.0088 = 0.1056 BTC [-]
Vexual: so it seems
mircea_popescu: lmao jborkl
mircea_popescu: the mexican is there to bean flavour the sausage soup they're making.
jborkl: They are all staring at each other and appear to be wearing lipstick :/
jborkl: ok, who p2pd in the pool
pankkake: at least it wasn't a whale taking a dump
bitesak: would one be able to order and pay via fiat or is this strictly through bitcoin ?
Vexual: lol
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 601 @ 0.00853068 = 5.1269 BTC [-] {10}
mircea_popescu: bitesak bitcoin.
bitesak: this will help make GPG more accessible and usable
mircea_popescu: hopefully.
mircea_popescu: i would think you know, if anyone that groks gpg gives one to their numerous gfs
mircea_popescu: gpg could take over the world.
bitesak: precisely, I was speaking about GPG with my gf and this would be a good christmas gift
mircea_popescu: yeah cause very easy to use, very hard to fuck anything up.
bitesak: and thanks to Bitcoin_
ozbot: anyone-hashing-in-the-datacentre-yet
jborkl: 2 jupiters for 350gh - bam tearing it up
mircea_popescu: howlong have those been up ?
mircea_popescu: curious if anyone ran a knc thing for more than a week or so by now
Vexual: look for smoke signals
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.94 = 1.88 BTC [+]
FabianB: mircea_popescu: so this is a simplified and bigger version of http://www.gnupg.org/howtos/card-howto/en/smartcard-howto-single.html ?
mircea_popescu: as best i can see it has little in common really.
mircea_popescu: that thing's a joke, really.
Vexual: will the girlfriend christmas package include lingerie, your email and a digital camera?
mircea_popescu: Vexual we're working on something.
Vexual: good, i like drama
FabianB: mircea_popescu: maybe, but there seem to be 4096 versions too, and can handle kakobreklas wish for programmability (which of course decreases security)
mircea_popescu: which kinda is the point.
asciilifeform: anybody make one with a zapper?
mircea_popescu: as best i can see the smartcard is a sort of fun and games project, let's play with smartcards. it doesn't have the critical features such as separation of key from slate.
mircea_popescu: such as hardware rng, such as the zapper yes,
mircea_popescu: it's a laundry list.
asciilifeform: only people I know who include the zapper are, well, classic NSA. and they don't have a retail store.
mircea_popescu: they do, but they only sell to iran
FabianB: what's a zapper?
Vexual: cyanide pill?
asciilifeform: Vexual: if you were to introduce key importation, the zapper would have to come with cyanide.
asciilifeform: whereas the answer to the inquisitor's 'where are the other copies' is correctly 'nowhere.'
Vexual: what is zapper?
Vexual: rom write?
bitesak: the ability to destroy the key?
asciilifeform: bitesak: we have a winner.
asciilifeform: see 'How does it work ?' section 'D'.
bitesak: good night !
pankkake: well, I get the point of the device, but no backup is a dealbreaker for me
FabianB: mircea_popescu: hmm.. but could gpg's smarcard api be used with cardano for signing/encryption instead of copying files?
jurov: asciilifeform: you have not considered adding a display? it's the thing i like about trezor
jurov: so that stuff to be signed can be verified right on the device
mircea_popescu: FabianB perhaps. i'll have to look into that.
mircea_popescu: jurov he tried, but couldn't get it past me.
pankkake: also how do you communicate with it? you will need some software on the host?
jurov: pankkake: it's in tfa
mircea_popescu: pankkake nah, just normal stick
jurov: mircea and why not?
Vexual: add a discharge cap to smoke the usb hub just for fun
mircea_popescu: jurov cause i'm that kind of asshole.
pankkake: oh, you put your thing it its filesystem. clever
jurov: didn't you violate contract with this executive meddling?
mircea_popescu: no. my contract clearly states all employees must have unprotected sex with me.
mircea_popescu: it's written in blood.
Vexual: tansylvania style
pankkake: I guess you can write software using it, of course, but it's clever
jurov: poor stanislav...
mircea_popescu: pankkake yeah the idea is, you can make a simple bash script to backup sites
mircea_popescu: without relying on any outside protection.
mircea_popescu: that's a good usecase, you know ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2750 @ 0.00085157 = 2.3418 BTC [+] {2}
pankkake: how would it work, to encrypt a, say, 4 GB file?
mircea_popescu: the encrypt is not handled by the cardano
mircea_popescu: decription admittedly may take a minute at that size.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3450 @ 0.00085214 = 2.9399 BTC [+] {2}
pankkake: oh I'm dumb. you only need the pubkey for that
pankkake: but yeah, the decryption then…
pankkake: it would have to work in a "streaming" way
pankkake: and I don't think you can do that with a filesystem
mircea_popescu: (why streaming)
pankkake: does the cardana have gigabytes of storage?
pankkake: cardano*
mircea_popescu: C) Working slate ROM. This Flash ROM is removable, and may be inspected or replacedx by customers either before deploying the unit or at any point during.
mircea_popescu: if it doesn't you can solder your own in.
mircea_popescu: o wait. no need to solder, cause nsa made it replaceable.
pankkake: ROM is Read Only Memory right? so I don't get it
mircea_popescu: it's the same thing you find if you crack open any usb stick
pankkake: I wouldn't call it ROM
mircea_popescu: but then again you're french.
Vexual: cdr is rom
pankkake: well you're ROManian…
jurov: mircea_popescu: really, what happens if i put on it 4GB file to decrypt? where will it put the decrypted file?
mircea_popescu: jurov well hopefully it has a 8gb slate, it puts it right there
mircea_popescu: pankkake no srsly, it's what they're called.
jurov: especially if gpg compressed it while encrypting
pankkake: but you will confuse people. Flash memory could be clearer
mircea_popescu: ram is volatile, rom is not volatile. it's what the words mean.
mircea_popescu: if it confuses people it's because people gotta learn what the words mean.
pankkake: anyway, I think an optional, streaming interface would be good
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 26 @ 0.0089858 = 0.2336 BTC [+] {3}
Vexual: 3 letter? didn't read, too long
mircea_popescu: pankkake maybe, but it'd be a diff product. this one separates itself from computer when touching the key,
mircea_popescu: so as to rpotect from a variety of snooping techniques such as diff analysis from the host.
pankkake: it doesn't have to be different - it would simply be another service provided by the device; and would probably provide less attack vectors than the filesystem
pankkake: I mean, it can perfectly provide both
jurov: oh, and have you considered safely erasing decrypted stuff once it is used?
mircea_popescu: jurov the writing scheme is most-used rather than least-used
mircea_popescu: consequently, you can trash the bits yourself by repeatedly copying/deleting a file to it.
pankkake: jurov: there is actually a better way: use a one-time-encryption key for the filesystem. each time you reboot it, it is effectively erased
mircea_popescu: pankkake it's never rebooted.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 43 @ 0.008989 = 0.3865 BTC [+]
pankkake: then unmount/remount
pankkake: just forget the password
mircea_popescu: something like that.
Vexual: call it solid state, it sounds more expensive than rom or flash
jurov: hmmmm... cuz safely erasing today's wear-levelled flash memory is non-trivial endeavor
pankkake: it's less IO expensive than erasing the data (but more CPU expensive as anything written is encrypted)
jurov: or you use something custom?
mircea_popescu: jurov which is why this is optimised the opposite way. it will wear down the bits.
mircea_popescu: yes, tis custom.
pankkake: custom how?
mircea_popescu: custom as in, it optimises for maximum wear.
mircea_popescu: as opposed to how commercial flash drioves work (optimised for least wear)
pankkake: doesn't really respond to the "is the decrypted data recoverable"
jurov: ^this
mircea_popescu: it does. if you are concerned about this point, copy a file repeatedly until the bits die, and so then it won't be.
mircea_popescu: if you're not, you're not.
pankkake: that sucks, and as stated, you have ways to make the concern go away *and* not wear the thing
mircea_popescu: sometime life sucks.
pankkake: your product is flawed, there are easy ways to fix it and yet… no?
mircea_popescu: the product is fine. you have an issue being somehow convinced you can design stuff while simultaneously not having a clue what rom is.
mircea_popescu: this issue is not of the world.
pankkake: and I'm only getting evasing responses now. pathetic
Vexual: associates seeking similar outcomes leaving earth
jurov: Vexual: it's your brainwallet?
Vexual: whoops wrong window
mircea_popescu: if it is he has no btc ;/
Vexual: ASSOLE
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1050 @ 0.00085235 = 0.895 BTC [+]
nubbins`: heuristic outcomes
Vexual: nice. i couldnt think of a suitable h
jurov: pankkake, we'll see when the design will come out...
pankkake: it's not hard to give clear answers
jurov: if it really it will be required to run shred /dev/sdf; mkdosfs /dev/sdf every time
jurov: then i guess bigger animals than us will start making fun of it
mircea_popescu: jurov there's a lot of sales copy there but i dunno how it's supposed to work/be implemented.
mircea_popescu: so i have no idea.
pankkake: "I don't know" is a better answer than "it's fine" when it's not
mircea_popescu: pankkake listen man, sometimes you will confront this situation where your imagination does not meet reality. people will tell you this, you will have to somehow digest it.
mircea_popescu: there's no way around it, and petulence certainly ain't it.
jurov: whose petulance?
mircea_popescu: the definition of petulence is "i've not done anything to date but i will declare your item "flawed" because i am upset that you don't agree with what i think is the case".
pankkake: again, if your product has no instand erase of its decrypted contents, it loses a great deal of attractivity - telling users they have to shred themselves is far away from the goal of having an easy secure device
mircea_popescu: can you quote where this goal you imagine for me was stated ?
jurov: <mircea_popescu> yeah cause very easy to use, very hard to fuck anything up.
mircea_popescu: hardly a goal. but anyway, let's go throuigh the thing to make sure we're all on the same page, har har.
mircea_popescu: if you have remote control of the connected pc, but no physical control of the stick,
pankkake: and the worst thing is, it's not a big deal to fix. there is no reason to start going all like "it's not a problem"
mircea_popescu: you can't read the deleted part of the work slate.
mircea_popescu: if you have physical control of the stick, you can remove the working slate, but still can't read it, because it has a cypher.
pankkake: you can read the raw filesystem of usb sticks
mircea_popescu: if you are real good and manage to extracrt the cypher out of the chip and decode the working slate, you might be able to read whatever's not been destroyed on the drive.
mircea_popescu: the definitive protection to this is a) don't lose physical control of the stick and b) destroy the slate.
mircea_popescu: this is how the thing is intended to work. there aren't and won't be unrelated cases glued on because people think they're cool.
mircea_popescu: because this isn't a cool thing, this is a useful thing.
pankkake: no, you can simply read the whole filesystem silently, when it is plugged
mircea_popescu: and you know this because ?
pankkake: because that's how USB Mass Storage works
mircea_popescu: right-o.
asciilifeform: ok I should probably chime in here. Easy answer:
asciilifeform: we have a session block cipher key for working slate in SRAM
mircea_popescu: bah ruining all my fun.
pankkake: asciilifeform: wow, so… that what I was proposing!
pankkake: see? don't deny the issue, especially if it is already fixed
mircea_popescu: eh get out
mircea_popescu: i gotta make this guy sign an nda.
mircea_popescu: pankkake : did you read the "At the end of this procedure, the working slate will have been re-formatted, and will appear empty - as Cardano no longer possesses the old block-cipher key." part ?
asciilifeform: without saying much more, the quick answer is: if some part of the draft spec seems illogical / bizzare / 'couldn't physically wurk', the answer is generally 'the obvious fix.'
pankkake: no. I TL;DRed it. but that was no reason to say that my concern was invalid - it was valid, and actually taken care of
mircea_popescu: which means it's invalid.
pankkake: ugh…
Vexual: sscience
Vexual: can i get a 9 pin plug instread of usb? :)
pankkake: you mean a 9 in plug?
asciilifeform: Vexual: for your VT-100?
Vexual: yeah im saving up for a new computer
nubbins`: hey! my bitbet was accepted
nubbins`: thrilling
mircea_popescu: how did that happen!
mircea_popescu: and i gave clear orders no futher bets to be accepted!!1 the entire system is breaking down!
Vexual: whats the bet?
ozbot: BitBet - Havelock will announce US restrictions by Guy Fawkes Night
nubbins`: it's en vogue these days
Vexual: are you the no nubs?
nubbins`: not sure how to answer
nubbins`: i thought you were asking if i didn't have any nubs
pankkake: while the "ASICMINER weekly dividend drops below 0.005 per share in 2013" was getting rejected it is now too late, as the last one was 0.004
ozbot: Oops: Azerbaijan released election results before voting had even started
Vexual: private fibre
asciilifeform: speaking of Azerbaijan, has anyone here done the TOR exercise suggested in MP's comments?
nubbins`: which exercise is that?
mircea_popescu: lol azerbaijan govt is truely efficient.
ozbot: Dear Guardian : stop being retarded. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
nubbins`: someone mentioned it earlier today
pankkake: given I know people who had police visits quickly after running exit nodes, I won't
asciilifeform: don't do it on a residential pipe.
pankkake: and probably don't do it on your name, but with some kind of legal shield
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 1 @ 0.36110131 BTC [+]
pankkake: I mean, legal entity
Vexual: more 802.11s!
asciilifeform: it is best done under the flag of an organization existing for some other not entirely related purpose.
asciilifeform: with the commander's approval, naturally
asciilifeform: or if you're a cheapo you can just rent an Amazon EC2 instance.
asciilifeform: they Officially love TOR.
pankkake: won't Amazon rat you out?
asciilifeform: last i checked tor exits were explicitly permitted in their TOS
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 2 @ 0.42999999 = 0.86 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 33 @ 0.11248786 = 3.7121 BTC [-] {8}
asciilifeform: the fact of them sneaking a peek at your results if they feel like it is another matter.
pankkake: having the server pulled off isn't the real concern, the real concern is them giving your personal info to the police
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform don't you find that amazon love quite damning ?
asciilifeform: and if you diddle traffic in an easily detected way, TOR foundation will add your node to its blacklist.
pankkake: there are many other providers who explicitely say TOR is OK
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 22 @ 0.10165454 = 2.2364 BTC [-] {5}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 2 @ 0.43 = 0.86 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: pankkake like who ? (i've not been watching this any)
pankkake: some others that automatically shut you down (I know one who monitors for both TOR and Freenet)
asciilifeform: there is no shortage of damning. TOR's authors really love it when you run it on VPS hosts, saves them some $ on running their own diddled nodes.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1000 @ 0.00085235 = 0.8524 BTC [+]
pankkake: I'm running a relay on an EDIS node
mircea_popescu: Arvixe (hosting) Openly and respectfully state that while they dont permit a TOR exit on shared hosting accounts, you are very welcome to run one on a VPS account.
asciilifeform: 'shared hosting' typically means no persistent processes
asciilifeform: so, no IRC either, etc
pankkake: hehe, I remember when you could rent "shells" and the number of resident processes was limited
pankkake: for the same price you can probably get a dedicated server now
asciilifeform: my advice to anyone who does the exercise is to look up what happened to the Swedish fellow who did likewise and published the results in an academic paper.
asciilifeform: and then draw appropriate conclusions.
Vexual: you can kiss those 4 centibits goodbye nubbins
pankkake: anyway, the tor list of isps is a good source even if you don't care for TOR
asciilifeform: the TOR source is a good source even for those who don't care for TOR
asciilifeform: it is one thing to say 'gotta be a honeypot, bureaucrats wrote it' and another to see just how the pot is intended to function
asciilifeform: and under what conditions it is usable as something else.
ozbot: Tor Researcher Who Exposed Embassy E-mail Passwords Gets Raided by Swedish FBI and CIA | Threat Leve
asciilifeform: yes, him.
Vexual: no wait, the other ways around
pankkake: the tor project explicitely says you should not trust exit nodes
asciilifeform: it says quite a few things
asciilifeform: such as, for instance, that a healthy person should eschew Winblows
asciilifeform: words are cheap.
pankkake: TBB ships with HTTPS anywhere, not that it is enough…
pankkake: actually, even torbrowser on linux is quite risky
pankkake: unless you forbid any non-tor traffic, like Tails does
asciilifeform: anyone who even thinks of 'browser' when thinking about TOR, etc. is already in a state of damnation.
pankkake: what do you mean?
asciilifeform: refer to the 'dumb users' section of the latest TOR dirt leak (even if you believe that the 'leak' is disinfo, the section applies to most users.)
asciilifeform: so consider the case of a TORist who proceeds to log into gmail, etc. while on a circuit
asciilifeform: game over.
asciilifeform: or the similar case of 'cookies' enabled
pankkake: right
pankkake: that's why Tails is great: use it to do your thing and this only
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.9530003 = 1.906 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 42 @ 0.00866 = 0.3637 BTC [-]
blastbob1: i was dreaming about a irc based exchange on the tor network
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.9530002 BTC [-]
pankkake: hmm and you would put orders through bots?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.953 BTC [-]
pankkake: I like it - tor or not
blastbob1: faster than any web on tor atleast
kakobrekla: assbot speaks mpex
pankkake: I don't like websites or browsers, so :)
mircea_popescu: blastbob1 you are aware this is how mpex works yes ?
blastbob1: heard some rumours yes
ozbot: The many ways available for talking to MPEx pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
mircea_popescu: there, spec. why live on rumors.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 51 @ 0.00867 = 0.4422 BTC [+]
blastbob1: Can you accually buy and sell with it also?
pankkake: $proxies
kakobrekla: i hear rumours?
ozbot: Awesome - Rumours - YouTube
Azelphur: proxies? have places started blocking mpex? XD
pankkake: simply prepare for the worst
kakobrekla: most of those are offline
kakobrekla: proxies
pankkake: is that indented?
pankkake: intended
kakobrekla: i doubt
Azelphur: mircea_popescu: I spot a kivy screenshot
nubbins`: Vexual: not my bitcents! i'm in it to win it
Vexual: yes well you must have seen snl last week too nubbins
nubbins`: sadly, no :(
Vexual: the thinking persons merican news and currnt affairs
nubbins`: i thought that was the onion
Vexual: no thats just to confuse old people
nubbins`: ah! i have so much to learn
nubbins`: i get most of my news through the glorious red lens of the canadian broadcasting corporation
Vexual: the red lens is the bc bud?
nubbins`: i was referring to their strong slant to the left
nubbins`: although i think i recall that in other places red is the right-wing color of choice?
nubbins`: hard to keep track
mircea_popescu: Azelphur hm ?
Azelphur: in your blog post
Azelphur: I spy python+kivy
mircea_popescu: some people don't know the glory of perl
Azelphur: you mean, the terribleness
mircea_popescu: im in such a trollish mood today
Vexual: tell that to a t1000 terminator, theyre all perl
nubbins`: i thought they were written in RPG IV
pankkake: you can run a kivy application on a desktop too?
nubbins`: sure
mircea_popescu: you can run anything on linux.
mircea_popescu: that is what the word means.
pankkake: I knew it mostly as a way to write Android applications in Python. if it can run without the android crap, it's great
mircea_popescu: i think it's pretty much useful as a way to write for smartphones, but it does run in linux.
mircea_popescu: which means it can be run on the toaster oven or w/e.
pankkake: well I'm on a project where most of GUIs suck, and we only support one dead mobile platform. kivy was on our radars
mircea_popescu: jesus that sounds bad.
pankkake: not really. we're like mpex, mostly CLIs :p
Vexual: also not actualy self aware
pankkake: looks like no java required for kivy on desktop. yay
mircea_popescu: nope. it's a decent tool.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 32 @ 0.00881 = 0.2819 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: apparently wikipedia has one good article on it.
nubbins`: "This is a list of non-pornographic, English language films"
pankkake: FPM is a good unit
pankkake: there's also youtube videos with only the fucks
mircea_popescu: the fuckdebit
nubbins`: f/m^2 as the fucks accelerate
ozbot: Jay And Silent Bob Strike Back: The F*cking Short Version - YouTube
mircea_popescu: english is so banal. i can only imagine what that'd have sounded like in romanian.
pankkake: indeed, I wonder if other language have such a popular curse worse
pankkake: word*
pankkake: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM8Mq4yz2Hw (though the joke is also the translation)
ozbot: fuck you - YouTube
mircea_popescu: m'embeterai
pankkake: it's funny because it's true. French translations are pretty tame
pankkake: saperlipopette !
ozbot: injuraturi - YouTube
mircea_popescu: this is one of the better romanian strings.
mircea_popescu: interestingly, the chick is actually french and she doesn't speak romanian. learned it phonetically.
pankkake: nice
mircea_popescu: (Marthe Felten)
ozbot: Hercules Returns: "Testiculi's father".. Part 1 - YouTube
nubbins`: huh, virtex is issuing debit cards now
nubbins`: cool
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 26 @ 0.008989 = 0.2337 BTC [+]
Lennix: any updates from ukto regarding refunding the bugged fees?
pankkake: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYoeBn247CU that movie is an insult goldmine and a classic
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 34 @ 0.009 = 0.306 BTC [+] {3}
mircea_popescu: According to Pileggi, Scorsese cold-called the writer and told him, "I've been waiting for this book my entire life." To which Pileggi replied "I've been waiting for this phone call my entire life".
pankkake: I'm becoming addicted to zero fee transactions. it's like gambling except you eventually win
kakobrekla: coincontrol build is perfect for that
kakobrekla: you can easily add bloat btc to make it free
kakobrekla: or select apropriate input
pankkake: it's how I chose the amounts I bitbet usually, I take a full input :)
mircea_popescu: it does have a cost tho
kakobrekla: you can do 1 satoshi tx and attach 100 btc to it for bloat and its free
Vexual: a satoshi saved is a satoshi earned
mircea_popescu: in the sense that old coinbase are worth that many btcdays
pankkake: indeed. I was actually thinking of how a service could try to lower its fees by coinbase optimization
kakobrekla: have one big input of 1k btc and shave off btc
kakobrekla: change address always self
pankkake: if the change address is self, then it's still considered old?
Vexual: no
pankkake: that's why I thought of having multiple old coinbases, of many values
kakobrekla: just make it big enough
Vexual: 1000 btc ages quickly
pankkake: oh, the bigger it is, the faster it ages?
kakobrekla: "btcdays" is the unit
kakobrekla: 1 btc per day
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CFIG] 1 @ 0.13085 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 29800 @ 0.00018099 = 5.3935 BTC [-] {4}
kakobrekla: 0.5 btc would take 2 days
kakobrekla: 2 btc would take half a day
pankkake: I see. cool. I wasn't able to find a good documentation on the matter earlier
kakobrekla: ;;calc (60*60*24)/1000
gribble: 86.4
kakobrekla: looks like 86 seconds for a 1k
kakobrekla: a sendtomany every block easy
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 14 @ 0.008821 = 0.1235 BTC [-]
Vexual: hows the 250k block gonna work in 5 years?
Vexual: plebs will only be able to send coins using services affiliated with mining conglomerates?
mircea_popescu: pretty much
Vexual: cool, im gonna buy noumea so i can learn improper french properly
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 5 @ 0.43 = 2.15 BTC [+]
pankkake: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 262659 | Current Difficulty: 1.8928124928103292E8 | Next Difficulty At Block: 264095 | Next Difficulty In: 1436 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 1 hour, 37 minutes, and 4 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 220202781.137 | Estimated Percent Change: 16.33629
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 85 @ 0.009 = 0.765 BTC [+] {2}
nubbins`: anyone feel like fielding a couple of questions about coloured coins?
Jere_Jones: Anyone know what's going on whty Ukyo lately?
Jere_Jones: s/whty/with
Vexual: hes maybe moving to okinawa
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 40 @ 0.009 = 0.36 BTC [+]
Vexual: waiting on a visa for his cat
Jere_Jones: He seems to be MIA for over a week now.
Vexual: biosecurity is pretty big in japan
mircea_popescu: ;;seen ukyo
gribble: ukyo was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 1 week, 3 days, 20 hours, 26 minutes, and 51 seconds ago: <Ukyo> So speculate all you want. :)
mircea_popescu: ;;seen ukto
gribble: ukto was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 1 week, 2 days, 17 hours, 12 minutes, and 18 seconds ago: <Ukto> yeah. there are easier ways. :)
nubbins`: after an admittedly short search, i wasn't able to find a whole lot of technical info on the theory behind colored coins, but i found this odd snippet in a paper:
Vexual: im joking people, hes moving to tokyo
nubbins`: "A valid Bitcoin transaction which does not follow the special colored format, will be recognized by the Bitcoin network, but not as a legitimate color-preserving transaction by the colored coin network. The color of these coins will be lost, and hence users and software clients need to be careful to avoid doing this and losing their value."
Vexual: cat is true
nubbins`: but why the fuck would you design it in such a way that the "color of the coins" (i.e. your shares in company x or whatever) could ever be lost?
nubbins`: it boggles me
Vexual: otherwise its racist?
Vexual: couloured coins isn't even a thing
nubbins`: that's it
nubbins`: it's because shit like i pasted doesn't make sense
nubbins`: and things that don't make sense don't get implemented
pankkake: why even use the bitcoin blockchain?
nubbins`: hash power!
pankkake: merged mining!
nubbins`: separate blockchain would be vulnerable to 51% attacks
pankkake: well, ok, you have to add incentives to merge mine it
nubbins`: but let's say i own 100 shares in company x
Vexual: le nuage
nubbins`: why can't i just send pankkake a dust transaction with "xfer 100 S.GEM" in the note field?
mircea_popescu: nubbins` because idiots.
mircea_popescu: see also
mircea_popescu: ;;google why i nixed
nubbins`: i mean, if the idea behind colored coins is that you have to make this huge tree of transactions that have some sort of magic dust in them
gribble: nixed - definition of nixed by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus ...: <http://www.thefreedictionary.com/nixed>; Why I nixed p2p, colored coins and all that jazz pe Trilema - Un blog ...: <http://trilema.com/why-i-nixed-p2p-colored-coins-and-all-that-jazz>; Why I Nixed the Knicks | The New York Observer: <http://observer.com/2012/11/why-i-nixed-the-knicks/>
nubbins`: why not tie the shares to the address, not to any particular coins?
nubbins`: i send a dust tx to address 1abc, with note "xfer 100 s.gem", so address 1abc is assumed to always possess those 100 shares, permanently
nubbins`: no losing them
nubbins`: until they send a dust tx to someone else saying xfer 50 s.gem or whatever
pankkake: from what I understand, colored coins aren't much better than asicminer-style direct shares
nubbins`: tying assets to individual coins and not addresses doesn't make any sense
nubbins`: the only thing direct shares need is a way to post bids and asks
nubbins`: without relying on a website
mircea_popescu: because the handkling of fixed addresses is poorly understood because, again, idiots.
pankkake: I'm still waiting for any technical insight on colored coins, so far I only see circlejerks (like the reddit shirt fundraiser)
nubbins`: nothing that couldn't be trivially implemented in any desktop or web-based bitcoin client
nubbins`: another tab next to "receive money" on your blockchain.info account
mircea_popescu: nubbins` here's the thing : if you do it with addresses you don't really need the blockchain, might as well do it to gpg signatures.
mircea_popescu: which reduces to a slightly braindamaged reimplementation of mpex.
nubbins`: mpex servers melt tomorrow, no trading; i can still send a dust tx to transfer my colored address shares
Vexual: you got a dude with an ak guarding your private key?
nubbins`: i'm assuming you keep records of who owns what? suppose you didn't have to
nubbins`: Vexual: don't we all?
Vexual: few do
mircea_popescu: nubbins` you can, but you have an escrow problem each time you do.
nubbins`: escrow is a problem?
mircea_popescu: yes, escrow is a problem.
nubbins`: multi-sig transactions
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 58 @ 0.009 = 0.522 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: multi-sig txs are not a solution to the escrow problem really.
Vexual: og blockchain is the gold standard, accept no substitutes
mircea_popescu: they;'re a useful tool in some contexts, but you still need to have an escrow agent
mircea_popescu: if that agent melts down... no transactions.
mircea_popescu: which brings you back to exactly where we started.
Vexual: whats the point?
nubbins`: if the transacting parties agree, there's no need for the escrow agent at all, but you're correct in that the system would hinge on having a supply of readily-available escrow agents
nubbins`: although
nubbins`: it's trivial to verify a legit tx
mircea_popescu: depends on the state of the blockchain at that time
mircea_popescu: if it's forked, it may be impossible.
nubbins`: well, if it's forked, lots of things are impossible
mircea_popescu: not for mpex.
mircea_popescu: moreover, you will have a sensible delay in all trades. what's better, one day a year of no trading or half hour lost to settle each individual trade ?
mircea_popescu: today is like design 101 day
Vexual: got a logo yet?
pankkake: from what I see, this is going the way of the decentralized facebook
nubbins`: y'know, i think everything but the delay could be worked around
mircea_popescu: just about. decentralised trust is about as clever as decentralised cunt.
mircea_popescu: you got nothing to rub against.
pankkake: are anti-whatever programs having an opposite effect? yes
mircea_popescu: Vexual logo for what you mean ?
pankkake: colored coins?
pankkake: it's the first step to any successful project!
nubbins`: the logo looks horrible in my head
Vexual: nothing to rub against, that bests beans in the sausage soup
Vexual: lmao
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 600 @ 0.00123997 = 0.744 BTC [+] {3}
Kleeck_: LOL: oops! http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/10/09/oops-azerbaijan-released-election-results-before-voting-had-even-started/
pankkake: http://mpex.co/favicon.ico even MPEx has a logo!
Vexual: i mean logo for beardy italian gpg stick
[\]: people still use favicon?
nubbins`: faviconcoin
pankkake: why wouldn't you have favicons?
nubbins`: having no favicon implies boorishness
Vexual: if i may suggest, a bearded italian
Vexual: im pretty sure theres no copywrite on those images
Vexual: the name of the guy, who your gpg key is named after, whos name i forget becuase i didn't know of him before
asciilifeform: Vexual: he is also known for inventing... the crankshaft.
Vexual: really?
Vexual: i must have really skimmed wikipedia that time
mircea_popescu: i have no idea what's going on...
asciilifeform: well, the modern version thereof
Vexual: whats the name again?
asciilifeform: err, not the crankshaft, the gimbal shaft
Vexual: like some trustless gyroscope
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 1 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: o you mean the cardan joint ?
asciilifeform: but I first learned of him because of 'Cardano's Grille'
asciilifeform: possibly the most fun low-tech cipher machine possible
mircea_popescu: which suggests a great line to me : whenever someone wants to featurecreep me, i shall go "we're doing a cardan joint not a thomson coupling here"
Vexual: you know rastas replace the word vital with ital
Vexual: and italians improved had made hash production in the himilayas
Vexual: they are very good at first principals
asciilifeform: the obsolete crypto method in question: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardan_grille
asciilifeform: who knew it was on pediwikia
Vexual: a beautiful culture in tune with an old language, great for thought
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mircea_popescu: ome free time, why not try something new? Vibrators.com has been giving away this free vibrator for years as a bonus gift with customers’ orders and it receives great reviews. It is fairly powerful, quiet, and uses a single AA battery (not included). It is 5 inches long and 1 inch in diameter, a smaller vibe. It is emblazoned with the Vibrators.com logo on one side, so that you will forever remember our generosity.”
Vexual: i remember something an old italian man told me, ingenious, i have to poke it in with a stick
Vexual: its probaly funnier when you've seen his wife
asciilifeform: gimbal joint built into the stick, or the wife?
Vexual: whats latin for gspot?
mircea_popescu: punto g ?
Vexual: sounds like a diesel
KRS-: somoene's wife sounds like a diesel?
Vexual: if you're doing it right
ozbot: AlKpote - Bande de p****** de sales p**** - Clip officiel - YouTube
KRS-: lol true i guess never thought about it haha
KRS-: hmm..good song..my whole house is vibrating because of my HiFi
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 1 @ 0.11909998 BTC [+]
kakobrekla: only could afford for one whore?
Vexual: lots of speakers is best life
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.96000101 BTC [-]
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