gregorynyssa[asciilifeform]: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2023-08-16#1030270 << `simonstylites` is not the Chinese ML programmer whom I mentioned.
dulapbot: Logged on 2023-08-16 14:36:08 asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-08-15#1029760 << fella claims to be a reader iirc, but not knows that asciilifeform in recent yrs hasn't even always time to answer mail, much less bake machine arch ? trololol
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-08-15 23:01:02 simonstylites[signpost|deedbot]: I can't wait to use Loper OS.
gregorynyssa[asciilifeform]: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2023-08-17#1030313 << It has some advantages over Linux.
dulapbot: Logged on 2023-08-17 15:21:23 asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-08-17#1029799 << what keeps you on winblows?
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-08-17 01:57:16 gregorynyssa[deedbot|signpost]: However, I still use Windows on a daily basis.
gregorynyssa[asciilifeform]: Aside from my own Linux distribution, Slackware is the best.
gregorynyssa[asciilifeform]: I mean, best according to my own needs.
gregorynyssa[asciilifeform]: signpost: I would be glad to speak further about Pentacle since it has some commonality with my own work.
gregorynyssa[asciilifeform]: I like how GoboLinux places every program in its own folder, in the manner of Windows.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: signpost's pentacle links statically, you can do precisely same thing there
asciilifeform: ( for that matter, even heathen crapple's os, where nuffin links statically, has 'erry proggy in own dir', this aint exclusive to microshit )
dulapbot: (asciilifeform) 2022-03-04 asciilifeform: (4) internet of the future(tm)(r)(c), i.e. whitelist and 'license to www' a la aol
asciilifeform: ^ 1 in endless series of tards like weev, who, instead of 'let's p2p hosting', insist on sitting on reichnet and whining about censors...
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-12-22 deedbot: weevlos voiced for 30 minutes.
PeterL[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-08-18#1029887 << is there something stopping you from having separate folders for each program on other distros?
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-08-18 00:51:07 gregorynyssa[signpost|deedbot]: I like how GoboLinux places every program in its own folder, in the manner of Windows.
asciilifeform: PeterL: on a heathen linux, dynamics libs thrown about in n diff /usr dirs, typically
asciilifeform: *dynamic
PeterL[asciilifeform]: so what happens if you move them?
asciilifeform: PeterL: PeterL: e.g. 'libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.14' not found' and similar idiocy
asciilifeform: and the dependency hell it creates, often enuff not curable without demolishing ~errything on the box
PeterL[asciilifeform]: ah, so the program assumes you have the lib it needs instead of bringing it with?
asciilifeform: aha
PeterL[asciilifeform]: but.. why?
asciilifeform: and absolutely universal on 'modern' distros
PeterL[asciilifeform]: does it make it more efficient or something?
asciilifeform: PeterL: see logs. nominally 'for seekoority' but factually forced by drepper & his fellow nsa assets to help maintain vuln footprint
asciilifeform: good % of asciilifeform's early trb work was specifically to build statically-linked binary of same
asciilifeform: later on , signpost baked a (initially gentooesque) linux where only musltronic gcc is present
asciilifeform: and the problem goes away entirely
asciilifeform: ( musl being a sane replacement for glibc where drepper's vandlism isn't present and static linking worx 100% )
asciilifeform: *vandalism
PeterL[asciilifeform]: I suppose I see the benefit of having to only patch a hole found in one place instead of rebuilding every program, is that the correct way this is reasoned?
asciilifeform: was how it was pushed, yes
asciilifeform: (drepper et al of course not bothered to mention that 'upgrade' can ~introduce~ as well as patch hole..)
PeterL[asciilifeform]: but then you have to worry about a "fix" breaking things that use it?
dulapbot: (asciilifeform) 2020-04-03 shinohai: Latest glibc "update" broke ~75% of coins.
dulapbot: (asciilifeform) 2020-07-26 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-26#1017239 << there's ~6 years of history here ( and that's simply from asciilifeform's pov, other folx struggled longer. ) in '15, found that glibc project has been operated by wreckers, for years. and deliberately sneaks dyn. loads into 'static' builds. after some work, found cure -- to throw glibc the fuck out.
asciilifeform: think of 'dynamic linking' this way -- you had a proggy and thought you knew its behaviour space, and nao a total stranger changed arbitrary aspects of how it worx.
asciilifeform: ~best~ case scenario is that it simply bombs on start
asciilifeform: for erry vuln the dreppers claim to fix, they introduce N new ones. once you know this, seeing dynamic linking anywhere near safety-critical proggy (or pretty much anywhere else) oughta induce gag reflex.
asciilifeform: the only place it is ever of practical use is occasions when you wanna run e.g. 'valgrind', where you gotta hijack malloc and free
asciilifeform: ( arguably best proggy from a determinism pov is one ~without any linking whatsoever~, dynamic or static. but there aint many of these, 'm' is the only example asciilifeform can personally give )
PeterL[asciilifeform]: dynamiscism seems to be inviting murphey's law
gregorynyssa[asciilifeform]: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2023-08-18#1030405 << Under static linking, all of the functions which a program needs are included within the executable.
dulapbot: Logged on 2023-08-18 16:16:35 PeterL[asciilifeform]: ah, so the program assumes you have the lib it needs instead of bringing it with?
gregorynyssa[asciilifeform]: Under dynamic linking, the executable needs other files (dynamic libraries) in order to be executed.
gregorynyssa[asciilifeform]: Within the community of Windows, the inconvenience of dynamic linking is reduced by distributing .exe and .dll files within the same .zip file.
gregorynyssa[asciilifeform]: By always keeping the .exe and .dll files in the same folder, there are no path-related errors.
gregorynyssa[asciilifeform]: The community of Linux rejects this practice, and insists that the dynamic-library files must be scattered across the filesystem.
gregorynyssa[asciilifeform]: Thus, when using Linux, you must constantly tinker with filepaths to get executables working.
gregorynyssa[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-08-18#1029896 << In my opinion, paths should not be hardcoded into executables at all.
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-08-18 16:13:12 asciilifeform[4]: PeterL: on a heathen linux, dynamics libs thrown about in n diff /usr dirs, typically
gregorynyssa[asciilifeform]: It is nearly possible to create a distribution of Linux with zero hardcoded paths within executables.
gregorynyssa[asciilifeform]: Some traditionally hardcoded paths such as /bin/sh and /etc/fstab are hard to remove, though.
gregorynyssa[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-08-18#1029923 << From a Determinist perspective, even malloc(3) should not be used.
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-08-18 16:32:41 asciilifeform[4]: ( arguably best proggy from a determinism pov is one ~without any linking whatsoever~, dynamic or static. but there aint many of these, 'm' is the only example asciilifeform can personally give )
gregorynyssa[asciilifeform]: Every program should allocate all of its memory in a single block upon starting up.
gregorynyssa[asciilifeform]: (This being achieved through ELF segments, not through brk(2).)
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: read the linked proggy, that's precisely what takes place there, lol
asciilifeform: (and not limited to elf segment either)
asciilifeform: nope re any other libcism either
asciilifeform: (builds w/out linking, there's nuffin to link)
asciilifeform: technically invoked ld, but simply to get the elf header in
asciilifeform: ( subj )
dulapbot: Logged on 2023-08-18 23:02:08 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: read the linked proggy, that's precisely what takes place there, lol
gregorynyssa[asciilifeform]: I have not used your M program because I have no MIPS III programs which I need to run.
gregorynyssa[asciilifeform]: I seem to remember that you wrote M in one or two days, is that right?
gregorynyssa[asciilifeform]: Was there any particular MIPS III program which you needed to execute?