unpx[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform same. And what scares me is that I don't know why.
phf[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-13#1018298 << i thought awt disable addrcast, so the only way AT recovery happens is if everyone but one station changes ip at a time, and the synchronizes before the next station does
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-12-13 19:24:34 asciilifeform: in AT still sees 'no packets received' from unpx
phf[asciilifeform]: at least i'm not getting any addrcast messages from anyone
phf[asciilifeform]: and you've changed your ip at least once in the past few months, because i remember updating it
phf[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-09-18#1013124 afaik this is the last release
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-09-18 20:15:50 awt: [9971 with mcrypt, potential prod loop fix, ac disabled by default][http://share.alethepedia.com/blatta/]
asciilifeform: phf: aha iirc disabled by default currently; and to add to headache, of course old vers dun even relay addrcasts
asciilifeform: phf: does your pestron proto eat addrcast ?
awt[asciilifeform]: Yes, addrcast disabled by default. Need to randomly space out the broadcasts.
asciilifeform: a ty awt
phf[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform, it logs packets that are not otherwise explicitly silenced ("ignore" is the only message type that's like that)
phf[asciilifeform]: it keeps them around as ephemera, so i can inspect them and maybe live repl a real response, and, having done, that crystalize that into concrete code.
asciilifeform: ( for the nat drill mechanism to work, both ends gotta support 'prod' and 'addrcast', and the peer they have in common has to relay the 'addrcast'. and, on top of this, if 1 or both are in 'symmetric nat', the old mechanism aint enuff; need the 'hammer' described in new draft)
asciilifeform: phf: nifty
billymg[asciilifeform]: trb node operators to be required to register as money service providers
phf[asciilifeform]: i don't for example rebuild backlog, i just (prod) and then (GETDATA (RED-PACKET-BROADCASTNETCHAIN last-red))
phf[asciilifeform]: so i've been doing it like that for couple of weeks, until i wired prod into process-packet mainloop, now it does the second step automatically. i still manaully (prod) on boot :>
billymg[asciilifeform]: getting awfully close to http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2020-12-17#1026649
bitbot[asciilifeform]: (asciilifeform) 2020-12-17 asciilifeform: say this yr they ask 'do you hodl'. next 'please list addrs'. and 2022 -- list privkeys.. will list ?
asciilifeform: billymg: lol, and dun fughet that mp3 users required to pay royalties to fraunhoffer, and torrent users, required to pay mpaa
asciilifeform: phf: atm afaik just about erryone doing some variant of 'hand-cranked addrcast'
phf[asciilifeform]: and (prod) is just (SPOOL (MAKE-RED-PACKET :type :PROD …))
phf[asciilifeform]: i'm doing that old school lisp machine development style thing, where "handcranking" is "code you haven't written yet, but strongly aligned with"
asciilifeform: phf: recall how pestronics started with 'let's see if can lightly patch an old irc relayer'
billymg[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform: my guess is it won't pass as is, precisely for that reason (everyone will then know they have no power to enforce). better for them to re-propose it every couple of years to create fud, shake weak hands, corral users into "regulated wallets", and promote some controlled opposition figure as the hero who defe
asciilifeform: billymg: per asciilifeform's pov, worst thing that's happened to bitcoin to date was its 2010s 'legalization' and the 'institutional' 'law-abiding' vermin crawling in and pumping/dumping
phf[asciilifeform]: the worst thing that imho happened to bitcoin is the original 16k spike, but it's probably driven by this legalization
phf[asciilifeform]: subjectively, i feel like the 16k spike was the reason why tmsr ~really~ went under
phf[asciilifeform]: was the moment when everyone but mp looked at their hodl and realized that it's nowhere near large enough for "to the moon", the time put into tmsr projects suddenly was weighted against substatntial, life changing sums
phf[asciilifeform]: well, at least it was the case for me. the amount of time i put into btcbase and vtools for them to be basically "open source" (i.e. unpaid work for kommunity, that came more with abuse and responsibility, than even kudos)
asciilifeform: ( oblig )
asciilifeform: and see also re: a moar fundamental boojum.
dulapbot: (asciilifeform) 2021-11-17 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-17#1066486 << there's imho a quite serious systemic defect in bitcoin (and no, i'm not aware of any possible 'fix') -- the reward structure favours early-adopting morons
phf[asciilifeform]: right, a combination of "early hodls" and the fact that the most effective means of legitimate bitcoin, that is without goxing or similar, is to put excess fiat into it
billymg[asciilifeform]: phf: as in, spike to ~$16k at the end of 2017 resulted in "oh shit, this thing's got legs. i should be grinding to stack more coin, not working for free for republic"?
phf[asciilifeform]: billymg, yeah that's a very concise and proper way of putting it
phf[asciilifeform]: but i'm thinking i wasn't the only one in that boat (judging by the frequency of ascii rants about "day job" and "where the money at", which mostly started around that time)
phf[asciilifeform]: and i don't think it was tmsr only either. why sell pizza for satoshis just to participate in bitcoin economy, if can go work for goldman sachs and make fat stacks, and then buy btc with that
phf[asciilifeform]: imho that spike basically destroyed "bitcoin economy" overnight, hippies that bought acid of silkroad2 suddenly turned into hodlers
billymg[asciilifeform]: i always imagined there was some link between republic and desire/ability to earn coin. as a lurker/outsider i didn't fully understand how but assumed something like step 1) join republic, become lord; step 2) ... ; step 3) profit
billymg[asciilifeform]: partly because of mp's alleged 100k btc stack, thought "his inner circle must be doing well"
phf[asciilifeform]: billymg, this is a point of dispute, but at least for me the hodl aspect was the least desirable element. the way i remember things is that lords were supposed to be independently wealthy (in coin, dollars or free time), and the goal was to build novel parallel economy first, benefit from it in wordly possessions second.
phf[asciilifeform]: the early catechisms, before hodl, were novel ideas about pgp contracts and corporations, counterparty relationships mediated by strong crypto, novel system of trust. there's a reason it's the most serene republic, the previous serene republics being venice, genoa and lucca
phf[asciilifeform]: the idea, again because this is what attracted me to tmsr therefore that is what i saw, was to build infrastructure for the future of business relationships, the way republic of venice is a foundational blueprint for western business world
billymg[asciilifeform]: that was my main appeal too, a parallel economy and wot being stood up so to be ready for the inevitable fiat world collapse
billymg[asciilifeform]: and it appeared to me that there was a moat being built around this tmsr economy, and i didn't want to be on the wrong side of it
asciilifeform: from asciilifeform's pov, the 'lift' was a source of frustration strictly : 'dun matter worth a shit whatcha do, even if you invent antigrav, still will make for pale shadow of 'was there when exch rate was 1$' '
phf[asciilifeform]: i also don't think that bitcoin is that interesting without tmsr and it's outright boring as a hodl
asciilifeform: approx as interesting as e.g. ftp (today, rather than in golden age of w4r3z ftps)
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018338 << from asciilifeform's pov, 'stack coin' was rather tedious proposition, in that 'could spend 100% of salary for yrs, and still not make appreciable + in even modest stack', again as result of the 'lift'
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-12-14 12:33:39 billymg: phf: as in, spike to ~$16k at the end of 2017 resulted in "oh shit, this thing's got legs. i should be grinding to stack more coin, not working for free for republic"?
phf[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018349 << but _tmsr_ economy never existed, was kind of like state of the art rocket, that didn't even fell on launch, was just continously being worked on
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-12-14 13:05:19 billymg: and it appeared to me that there was a moat being built around this tmsr economy, and i didn't want to be on the wrong side of it
asciilifeform did some 'stack' but purely as side effect of the piz crackpottery and mp's 'i wanna buy anuther bmw' episodes
asciilifeform: phf: quite accurate analogy
asciilifeform: 'let's build mars rocket, at some pt surely someone will come up with some fuel'
phf[asciilifeform]: well, the fuel part is i guess the ambiguous and disputed part, and it's step 2 in billymg's "tmsr earning coin plan"
phf[asciilifeform]: mp's final opinion, once everyone was removed, was that the entirety of tmsr was useless, and therefore not funding it was the smart thing to do
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018343 << afaik the only folx in that period who took in ~palpable~ coin were 1) mp, from operating pyramid 2) handful of folx who played in same
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-12-14 12:46:48 billymg: i always imagined there was some link between republic and desire/ability to earn coin. as a lurker/outsider i didn't fully understand how but assumed something like step 1) join republic, become lord; step 2) ... ; step 3) profit
asciilifeform: for the most part, mp not spent his coin, but rather 'paid' people with the jingle of his purse, like hajja nasreddin
phf[asciilifeform]: i'm not personally privy to that, mostly because i guess never wanted to be paid in coin jingle, didn't take on any "once it's running the money will come" projects
asciilifeform took on, tho not from any strong notion that 'money will come'
phf[asciilifeform]: although one of the projects in retrospect might've been profitable, it was supposed to be a kind of btc onlyfans
phf[asciilifeform]: it would've had at least one customer!
asciilifeform: there were some # of projs where 'we have 1 customer' (i.e. mp) 'and here's anuther' (also mp, different glove) but no 3rd
asciilifeform: elementarily, a room fulla paupers + 1 moneybag aint 'an economy'
phf[asciilifeform]: but for example how much coin did diana actually saw? i had an exchange with her my last days, on her channel, the logs for which i believe are lost, since she seemed to have perged the logs from her blog.
asciilifeform: but rather moar resembled those 19th c. british bridges where suited gentlemen threw copper coins into the mud below the bridge to watch the 'mudlarks' (hobos) dive for'em
phf[asciilifeform]: and to her abstract "one ought to answer why tmsr in their heart first" i answered with "well, you're actually being paid large sums of coins". she was not pleased :>
asciilifeform: phf: if one believes the s.mg communiques (still up on mp's fossilized www) can count that coin
asciilifeform: phf: prior to s.mg, 'mpoe.pr' (hanbot) also had salary in coin, was also in statements on mp's www
asciilifeform: these 2 were afaik the only known 'unprincipled exceptions' he made re 'dun pay people a wage'
phf[asciilifeform]: i guess one has to go through the backlog of s.mg? reason why i brought up diana is because in her recent blog post where she reflects on loss, she make it seem like the 60btc or whatever which is s.mg budget holding whatever, of which 30btc is diana's (i might have the numbers exa
phf[asciilifeform]: ctly wrong, but the point stands), are lost.
phf[asciilifeform]: so i guess there was salary, but then there was also company shares
asciilifeform knows for certain only re s.nsa piggy, which was operated in precisely this style, i.e. all keys strictly in mp's pocket
phf[asciilifeform]: right, you also have insight into it? i guess the s.nsa budget of whatever it was 10s of btc was never actually ever moved?
asciilifeform: iirc ~20 coin were used up ( for hosting, and coupla times to reimburse asciilifeform when bought parts for protos )
asciilifeform: outta total of iirc ~300
phf[asciilifeform]: i guess it was mp stake in coin to your stake in sweat equity. but since mp was managing coing and doing reimbersement, in order to move any of your company's alleged coin you had to come to him
asciilifeform thought it was rather strange where , in the episode where mp asked asciilifeform to extract & liquidate forkcoin from mp's hodl, and asciilifeform requested that same process carried out for snsa piggy, d00d refused
phf[asciilifeform]: not your wallet not your coin :D
asciilifeform: phf: correct, afaik all of his ops were conducted this way. didn't even seem peculiar at the time, 'naturally he won't put it where sumbody could walk off with it'
billymg[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018351 << i agree that a btc with warren's 'kyc trb nodes' makes no sense (it's just a reich checking account with extra steps), but assuming this never comes to pass then i still view it as interesting. just as torrents still continue to work and i continue to use them
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-12-14 13:07:39 phf[awt]: i also don't think that bitcoin is that interesting without tmsr and it's outright boring as a hodl
phf[asciilifeform]: lol, that explains a lot of things
asciilifeform: fwiw the hodl ref'd above (where at the end he said 'of course i've moar, but let's stop here, is enuff') summed to ~3k.
asciilifeform: already asciilifeform started to suspect alcohol problem, in the end he had a fit re the small commission (mutually agreed!) asciilifeform was charging.
asciilifeform: summer of '17.
asciilifeform: d00d chronically had genuine trouble remembering what he had agreed to mere week prior.
asciilifeform started out trying to show him how to do this chore w/ own hands, but he even answrd 'wai not you do it, make a commission'
phf[asciilifeform]: see i thought when you said in the past "paid with coin jingle" you meant it figuratively in a sense that s.nsa pay outs were meager, less than in any case than the demands of the lifestyle you're accustomed to, but there just weren't any to begin with
asciilifeform: phf: not 100% 'with jingle', d00d was entirely willing to occasionally do 'barrelhead' transaction
asciilifeform: 'i need an auto, wire to xxx' etc
asciilifeform: but this was for barrelhead trades, rather than 'sweat for snsa'
signpost[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018327 << just about every other bill also started with language to skewer self-custody, removed in amendment process, fwiw.
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-12-14 12:05:48 billymg: asciilifeform: my guess is it won't pass as is, precisely for that reason (everyone will then know they have no power to enforce). better for them to re-propose it every couple of years to create fud, shake weak hands, corral users into "regulated wallets", and promote some controlled
signpost[asciilifeform]: not that it's particularly reassuring
asciilifeform: phf: ~work~ was 'paid in jingle'.
asciilifeform: ( unless you were diana / hanbot )
signpost[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018332 << correct in my case. I went and got my biz sold, was meanwhile grunting out a linux distro for the guy and receiving this for my trouble.
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-12-14 12:11:54 phf[awt]: was the moment when everyone but mp looked at their hodl and realized that it's nowhere near large enough for "to the moon", the time put into tmsr projects suddenly was weighted against substatntial, life changing sums
bitbot[asciilifeform]: (trilema) 2019-11-25 mircea_popescu: seems to me today november the 25th we've not moved inch one away from nov 12th, though it's been two weeks. i don't expect anything substantially different will occur in the remaining two, so i'll just conclude that for whatev
asciilifeform: signpost: if in e.g. 2010 'it is nao prohibited to run btc noad!', mpaa tasked with ferreting out violators, arguably would've been moar interesting times, perhaps steady 100bux or whatnot exch rate, actual honest work re stego & network health, and no goldman pumpers
signpost[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018344 << fwiw I made the guy aware I had a growing PAYMENTS BUSINESS for christ's sake and zero flowed my way
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-12-14 12:47:45 billymg: partly because of mp's alleged 100k btc stack, thought "his inner circle must be doing well"
signpost[asciilifeform]: would've netted him an actual return on any shares bought too.
asciilifeform: signpost: d00d had all the cocaine he needed, etc. and ran tmsr the way boy runs an ant farm, strictly for entertainment, 'watch'em scamper for crumbs', is asciilifeform's pov re the denoument years
asciilifeform: for wat he needed 'return'.
signpost[asciilifeform]: life goes on, but this was about the time I decided to reallocate effort, yes.
signpost[asciilifeform]: the game's fun for those meant for the game
asciilifeform: did seem genuinely surprised re the ants walking outta the ant farm via hole
signpost[asciilifeform]: in either case, he had the right to do what pleased.
signpost[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018351 << I agree; without repair to culture, novel monetary instrument means very little.
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-12-14 13:07:39 phf[awt]: i also don't think that bitcoin is that interesting without tmsr and it's outright boring as a hodl
signpost[asciilifeform]: those that think money's at a level beneath culture have spent too much time in the corporate empire.
asciilifeform: with the kind of 'friends' btc has, not needs enemies, lol
signpost[asciilifeform]: absent a tmsr producing businesses (which require either capital or approx 10y of sweat) you have sequoia, andresson, et al owning "fintech" as tentacles of the reich.
signpost[asciilifeform]: but anyhow, we're here not there.
asciilifeform: signpost: from asciilifeform's pov, there simply wasn't the capital to even have sporting chance of any interesting mega-proj taking off.
asciilifeform: (once you substract mp's jingling but tightly-closed purse)
asciilifeform: e.g. asciilifeform offered to help bake silicon, set up pirate radio net, etc. but would've req'd actual spend. and unsurprisingly d00d wasn't interested
signpost[asciilifeform]: sure. I've never been opposed to producing works for fun so long as nobody's cracking a whip.
asciilifeform: pretty sure we had this thrd at least 1ce, but -- to the extent mp had political/megalomaniacal aims, was interested in carrying'em out only to the extent it could be done by folx 'doing tricks for peanuts'. (or, hypothetically, by other moneybags, somehow politically aligned -- but none turned up)
signpost[asciilifeform]: to be charitable, without other moneybags showing up, world ain't changing.
asciilifeform: the moneybags, near as asciilifeform can see w/ naked eye, like 'world' precisely as it is.
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-12-07 11:55:31 asciilifeform: mp for his part was visibly (and sympathetically) frustrated at presiding over band of clockmakers rather than pikemen. but if wanted the latter, oughta have config'd his time machine correctly.
asciilifeform: d00d wanted shaheeds, but neglected to invent a suitable religion that'd offer the req'd 72 virgins
asciilifeform: phf: upstack, was this the diana piece in question ?
signpost[asciilifeform]: may also be something fundamentally broken about revival/memberberries movements.
asciilifeform not looked at diana's www for rather long while, and found the above a difficult read, is rather like reading e.g. catholic apologists, extreme case of 'limba de lemn'(tm)(r)(mp), one'd need some kinda dope to fully make sense of the text
asciilifeform: signpost: wat are/were memberberries ?
signpost[asciilifeform]: "reboot old europe in bitcoin" for example.
signpost[asciilifeform]: not that it doesn't appeal to me, but it might be rather like fighting a riptide. the sea of transmayo slaves will move as it does without even noticing ya
asciilifeform: that aint the problem imho
asciilifeform: problem is e.g. 'let's reboot sound money' 'but how to prevent goldman from issuing unbacked paperized obligations in it' '..'
signpost[asciilifeform]: the answer is the sovereign kills them for it, and this won't happen while common law and pretend democracy of transmayo slaves.
asciilifeform: well ~whole appeal was 'dun need million-man army, they kill themselves' somehow
signpost[asciilifeform]: probably the sovereign who does so doesn't even need bitcoin.
asciilifeform: witness the ~0 interest of crowned heads in bitcoinism.
asciilifeform: (why, when running own kingdom on printolade precisely like washington does)
asciilifeform: imho there was (still is, theoretically) useful direction to press, to test orig. hypothesis -- suppose trb worked as well as e.g. warez torrent, from strictly technical pov
signpost[asciilifeform]: some of those same are piling up gold atm. plenty of interest in sound money, just not at the slave layer.
signpost[asciilifeform]: possibly those same have use of BTC if the "multipolar" thing holds a while and chinese don't end up permission-coin-ing world trade.
asciilifeform: even this, mp wasn't partic. interested in achieving
asciilifeform: for that matter, 'btc economy' how-to aint any kinda mystery.
dulapbot: (asciilifeform) 2022-01-14 asciilifeform: operate, if you will, 'half-duplex' economy.
asciilifeform: recipe's right there.
asciilifeform: not even req's shaheeds. only folx with some modicum of surplus.
asciilifeform: but nooo, erryone simply wants to 'ride hodl lift'
signpost[asciilifeform]: entire stack's still worth building as post-collapse tool, not of everything, but of fiat empires, which can indeed happen.
asciilifeform: the correct time to build up btc economy is ~before~ ~nobody has a surplus and focuses on 'naked survive' imho
signpost[asciilifeform] just holds no delusions about coming to power himself in such a scenario
asciilifeform: work on oddball new tech req's material surplus + leisure.
asciilifeform: recipe 'make sumthing useful in yer spare time; sell it for btc' impeded by, imho : 1) the difficulty of making anyffin useful enuff such that sumbody'd be willing to part w/ btc for it ;
asciilifeform: 2) the difficulty of coming up with btc
asciilifeform: 3) difficulty of transacting, operating dysfunctional softs, evading censors & snoops
asciilifeform: (3) was/is addressable, if anyone gave enuff shit, and asciilifeform burned MBs of bw describing how (and even supplying, gratis, various moving parts for subj)
asciilifeform: (2) could be addressable if 'moneybags' weren't cocaine-addled morons as a class
asciilifeform: (1) ditto
phf[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018465 << that's my point about the hodl culture
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-12-14 14:32:23 asciilifeform: recipe 'make sumthing useful in yer spare time; sell it for btc' impeded by, imho : 1) the difficulty of making anyffin useful enuff such that sumbody'd be willing to part w/ btc for it ;
phf[asciilifeform]: speculation kicking in before functional economy destroyed even the potential for the economy
phf[asciilifeform]: and consider that tmsr was extreme take on btc implications the effect that it had on us, necessarily had a more pronounced effect on elsewhere
phf[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018437 << yes, ftr i find the text to be entirely coherent. i think your personal animocity towards diana clouds your perception of her texts
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-12-14 14:10:14 asciilifeform: phf: upstack, was this the diana piece in question ?
asciilifeform: phf: fwiw asciilifeform rather liked diana. (who was afaik the only 1 to e.g. actually read all of, at the time, ffa, and even wrote 'crib sheets' for others)
asciilifeform: imho diana simply picked wrong ship to go down with.
signpost[asciilifeform]: the women obeyed, which in-world is precisely what they were commanded.
asciilifeform: aaha, was aboutt say
asciilifeform: 'not bug, feature'
phf[asciilifeform]: that reading is too postmodern for my taste, where we condermn people for their beliefs and alliegences. kind of like bringing up that someone's nazi before a conversation with that person even has a chance to take place. early tmsr could be accused of mp apologism, by somebody lik
phf[asciilifeform]: e kako, even though our positions were internally consistent. how much validity there is to the position ought to be explored separate
asciilifeform: point was, asciilifeform was never able to properly hate diana -- possibly nonmaskable irq from sex organs, nfi. but per asciilifeform's pov, behaves 'like ant removed from anthill', maybe after n yrs can think like a human again
signpost[asciilifeform]: my read of that post is she's taking what she built for eulora and doing what she likes with it. and good for her; she should.
asciilifeform: folx actually baking whatever goodies on own volition imho a++
signpost[asciilifeform]: that critique has to be born by all, not just her.
signpost[asciilifeform]: all larped, all failed, life goes on
signpost[asciilifeform]: larp only assignable in retrospect anyway. maybe some other timeline we're all sitting at the first congress of tmsr.
phf[asciilifeform]: well we're back in the argument from where my renewed participation in this venue started :> how much value there was to mp's approach, how much credit is his exclusive for establishing this approach, etc.
signpost[asciilifeform] will shut up a while as he wants to hear what phf has to say for its merits.
asciilifeform: the folx for whom their work was 'ticket to mp lottery' -- walked. who remains -- presumably has 'biological itch in arse', curiosity. but asciilifeform can only speak for self there; fwiw not 'skipped beat' after 'tmsr kaput'
phf[asciilifeform]: i still think that the log + blogs was a brilliant way to distill the essence of structured communication and adapt it to novel technology
asciilifeform: 'intelligence amplification'(tm)
phf[asciilifeform]: and ~personally~ i kind of dig the high culture "letters from M--" style that came with it
asciilifeform: fwiw asciilifeform's ~entire interest in kompyooting.
asciilifeform: there was 'sumthing for erryone' (or just short). some -- req'd an mp, some no
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-12-07 11:06:38 signpost: the hallowed status of the logs, and putting them at their right place, among a peerage.
phf[asciilifeform]: i notice what kids these days call "code switch" when talking about tmsr business, my sentences start taking, with many assides and subcomments, a victorian literary shape, so as to, in the shortest way possible, communicate with highest precision all necessary thought, so as not insult esteemed reader with too low of s/n.
asciilifeform for instance , interested in logical conclusion of cryptological wot, i.e. 'new internet' where 'freedom of association' via structured relat.s of trust. but this aint a seekrit.
asciilifeform on other level, interested in ~physical~ 'new internet', but this is 'bridge too far' atm
phf[asciilifeform]: and when reading diana's blog posts, i'm reminded of that particular style, since it rarely has an opportunity to present itself in the modern, decadent world.
asciilifeform must bbl for a spell
signpost[asciilifeform]: this kind of interwoven identity authorship in a peerage atop hypertext logs was/is a technological superpower, yes.
phf[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform, you're like an ultra-technologist in my victorian fantasy, maybe as you're not as interested in inter-human aspect of what tmsr proposed and where mp was the strongest, you reject that element as the least important. "this technological wunderwaffen i've tinkered in
phf[asciilifeform]: my laboratory over the weekend will solve the problem of precise communication once and for all, so as there will be no confusion, when communicating amongst men, henceforth!"
phf[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018493 << when i retire from my worldly responsibilities i'll sit down indeed to compose the authoritative encyclopedia of tmsr inventions, the marvelous gpg contract, the mechanised web of trust, the forum that is mediated by the electronic
phf[asciilifeform]: telegraph technology! the future that could've been
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-12-14 14:51:40 signpost: will shut up a while as he wants to hear what phf has to say for its merits.
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-12#1018239 << worx as speced in html draft
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-12-12 16:35:05 asciilifeform[jonsykkel]: phf: addrcast & prod, but atm not fully worx ( partly b/c not erryone on latest ver. of blatta (nfi whether all worx in smalpest) ) partly on acct of symmetric NATs and 'hammer' not yet exists in blatta
asciilifeform: phf: the 1 imho key win from 'press on technologies' is that they have a shelf life (unlike group of excitable shaheeds) and thereby can accumulate
asciilifeform: e.g. lispm patiently waited for 3 decades; p2p mostly waited, 'frozen in amber', for 20y; rsa's been waiting since '77 and still waits
phf[asciilifeform]: that position is self-evidently false, excalibur is entirely useless without an arthur to wield it
asciilifeform: whereas 'gang of shaheeds', once becomes clear to'em that there aint anyffin ~novel~ to do (and esp. if goaded by charismatic fuhrer to throw themselves at enemy mg for ~0 reward) eventually goes home.
asciilifeform: phf: excalibur precisely illustrative of the phakt tho -- it was able to wait for arthur
asciilifeform: who, yes, req'd
asciilifeform: even bitcoin still 'waiting', and likely will continue (enemy was able to smother the fire to an ember, but not put out)
phf[asciilifeform]: i mean, we know where you stand on this subject, rehashing the same arguments over and over is kind of silly
phf[asciilifeform]: but your arguments on the subject are always full of holes! "genera vs personality cult" genera always wins particularly if you opposite to some small time personality cult. but even there "genera still waits" and no indication it won't do so indefinitely
asciilifeform: phf: was in re: earlier item. asciilifeform partial to efforts that at least potentially cumulative/multigenerational, rather than 'write in sand'.
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-12-14 14:59:24 phf[awt]: asciilifeform, you're like an ultra-technologist in my victorian fantasy, maybe as you're not as interested in inter-human aspect of what tmsr proposed and where mp was the strongest, you reject that element as the least important. "this technological wunderwaffen i've tinkered i
asciilifeform: politicking -- 'writes in sand.'
asciilifeform: and indeed 'if no arthur', excalibur may well 'wait' until vanishes under volcanic strata.
asciilifeform not alleges otherwise.
asciilifeform simply observes that politicking w/out novel tech not historically gives interesting result.
phf[asciilifeform]: that's not "simply", that's an opinion statement, that just happens to coincide with your preferred opinion, presented as self evident!
phf[asciilifeform]: without right kind of politcking can't produce galleons, sometimes it's the case of "too much politicking" like in feudal japan, but in other cases possibly that not enough. the oft cited example of disney executive herding animators
phf[asciilifeform]: but also what's interesting, greece as the cradle of our civlization arguably produced a lot of interesting results, in thought and practice, but not just no novel tech, mocked and opposed technology as a less-than-manly enterprise
phf[asciilifeform]: and unfortunately in the baby with bathwater department, i think that mp's point re "engineers" was fundamentally correct. mp was in fact often times correct, the way RT is correct about us politics: if you choose the right kind of truth, can easily wield it to support your argument, while keeping the truth true
phf[asciilifeform]: so one could make a pro technology argument by pulling a once in a lifetime technology like transistor, or marine chronometer, OR make a pro politicking argument by pull the heights of western culture. and then use either to support either "polishing a lense" that results in a life
phf[asciilifeform]: time dedicated to one or dozen very polished lens and nothing else OR encourage one petty tirant's dysfunctional tendencies
phf[asciilifeform]: both directions are lacking, and the ~humor~ of my original statement, about the victorian technologist, is that attempting to solve communication problems with a technological wunderwaffen is as much a folly as trying to build a technology wunderwaffen through slave beatings
asciilifeform: phf: aint wrong, in either direction one can easily walk straight into own arse and never emerge.
asciilifeform fwiw not 'indifferent to people-talking', hence wai put effort into trying to come up with tooling for subj, rather than disappearing into a verisimilitude-esque walk into some abstraction
lobbes[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform: at the risk of sounding like a dingleberry, I think you (with laserlike precision I might add) just misunderstood the punchline of phf's victorian technologist analogy
lobbes[asciilifeform]: feel free to dingle my berries if I'm wrong. (I just smoked a bunch of weed so I'll go back to read-only mode for now)
asciilifeform: lobbes: asciilifeform not telepath, and not infrequently misunderstands argument
asciilifeform: pretty sure that understood phf's tho ( imho -- entirely reasonable admonition against '1nce the rockets go up, who cares where they come down, that aint my department, said wehrner von braun'(tm)(r)(lehrer) )