jfw: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-04#1020075 - and just 'cause diana_coman was running off didn't mean there was no point responding, so: seems it morphed in my head from what was written to the phrase "high-strung" as I'd heard it more. I think I get it; makes more sense as applied to the writing than to an instrument though, they don't seem to mind being tuned and in fact demand it
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-04 17:59:29 diana_coman: jfw: ah, not at all stuffy/bombastic/pretentious, no; and not nervous either; and note that I use adverbs correctly, it's highly (not "high") strung for a reason! if you think of how you tighten/loosen up strings on a guitar, that's pretty much the analogy there - you kept stretching and tuning and fiddling with it that the result is a highly strung (and generally too tightly but not only that) text/string.
jfw to sleep
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-04#1020087 - ah, perfect then! say I want to see what was in the paste given there - how do I find the link to the bot's archived version?
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-04 23:02:37 lobbes: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-02-27#1019473 << I missed this earlier, but archiving should already be occurring in this channel. Currently lobbesbot is set to silently snarf urls-to-parse from all channels it sits in, so this channel ought to be covered
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-04 16:47:26 BingoBoingo: This is the most recent 'churn3' I've produced http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=VxhL
ericbot: Logged on 2020-02-27 13:03:46 diana_coman: lobbes: how does that link-archiving work, can I have it in here too or what does it require?
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-05#1020089 - indeed there's point in responding! (and glad I didn't have to chase it up, too) ; re instrument - it's one thing to tune it, sure; it's another thing to tighten the string TOO much, that's the thing; it makes the very same sense for instrument as for writing - tuning is fine, but too much/incorrect "tuning" will sound rather poorly/break stuff.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-05 01:42:19 jfw: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-04#1020075 - and just 'cause diana_coman was running off didn't mean there was no point responding, so: seems it morphed in my head from what was written to the phrase "high-strung" as I'd heard it more. I think I get it; makes more sense as applied to the writing than to an instrument though, they don't seem to mind being tuned and in fact demand it
diana_coman: jfw: and I'd say the asking in #t re sigs was useful and productive, possibly not even as difficult as it seemed, was it?
diana_coman: speaking of which - dorion, did that point make full sense for you in the end? or is it still rather fuzzy in parts/overall/unsure?
ossabot: (trilema) 2020-03-04 mp_en_viaje: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-03-02#1958772 << in retrospect, i suspect maybe you don't take my meaning.
diana_coman: one full minute for ossabot to act, sheesh
dorion: diana_coman pretty sure it makes full sense.
jfw: diana_coman: ah ok. And yeah, the asking was useful & not too difficult.
jfw: diana_coman: are you familiar with Knuth's approach to literate programming (possibly he coined the term)? I took a peek down that rabbit hole, seems like there might be something to learn there before we go reinventing comment characters
jfw: in the interests of openness, mini-thread from across the river yesterday: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-03-04#1008422
snsabot: (asciilifeform) 2020-03-04 jfw: And since I was poked about it: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-02-05#1006048 - doesn't seem to describe what MP has in mind, though I could see it as the first guess from initial description.
BingoBoingo after two visits finially has a receipt for inscribing my birth certificate in the civil registry. Estimate for that was not sufficiently pessimum, but that ordeal is over.
dorion: diana_coman in working on the history of main actors in Bitcoin article, I'm struggling most with the introduction in that it seems like I should put Bitcoin in context of other currencies/payment systems.
dorion: or at least I think doing so would build a stronger context for why the reader ought to care anything about Bitcoin in the first place.
dorion: In my own experience, the driving force that ultimately lead me to Bitcoin was the realization of the problems with first fiat, then the disadvantages of gold compared to Bitcoin.
dorion: It seems most people remain content with fiat because they've not looked at it critically.
dorion: one precursor article I have in mind would show how the fiat bureaucrats have been deliberately undermining currency. another would show how their system creates the bubbles they then blame on capitalism.
dorion: I can then also layer on what I learned about the centralization of the correspondent banking system while working with euro pacific bank.
BingoBoingo returns from the far more pleasant experience of scheduling appointment to renew the local id.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-05 11:55:45 dorion: diana_coman pretty sure it makes full sense.
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-05#1020104 - to some extent (though I esp recall his literate/illiterate vs structured/unstructured, heh); iirc he proposed in fact an even stricter separation of code from comments since his "language" (web was it called?) was meant to have then 2 processors, one for generating the code (aka for machine execution and so absolutely unreadable) and one for generating the book (aka for ...
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-05 12:05:59 jfw: diana_coman: are you familiar with Knuth's approach to literate programming (possibly he coined the term)? I took a peek down that rabbit hole, seems like there might be something to learn there before we go reinventing comment characters
diana_coman: ... human consumption and so meant literally as a "book of this program")
diana_coman: jfw: thinking of it now I think he just picked some "special chars" and the like, basically had two interpreters/processors and that was that; did you have something specific in mind from there?
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-05#1020105 - jfw, would you mind summarising that mini-thread for me? The snr there used to be so bad I had stopped reading it altogether (though kept logging it for a while merely for not getting around to cleanup time) but trying to read it now following your link I even fail to extract any signal at all.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-05 12:13:15 jfw: in the interests of openness, mini-thread from across the river yesterday: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-03-04#1008422
snsabot: (asciilifeform) 2020-03-04 jfw: And since I was poked about it: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-02-05#1006048 - doesn't seem to describe what MP has in mind, though I could see it as the first guess from initial description.
jfw: diana_coman: 'web', yes; though I got the idea there was more to the processing than just separating comments from code. Some kind of 'natural language' emphasis and macro substitution. (Though I wonder if that ends up any different from a macro facility provided by the language itself.)
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-05#1020107 - congrats BingoBoingo on one fight with the local bureaucracy, I gather; do you need to register your birth certificate in Uy for the local id or why the bother?
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-05 13:18:50 BingoBoingo: after two visits finially has a receipt for inscribing my birth certificate in the civil registry. Estimate for that was not sufficiently pessimum, but that ordeal is over.
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: I needed to register it to renew the id. They didn't need it on their books to give it to me the first time, but for some reason the want it for the renewal.
diana_coman: jfw: iirc the processing simply extracted the bits relevant for the chosen branch (code/book) and otherwise the emphasis at processing time was more on typesetting and the like; the rest was still at comment-writing time really; though there was possibly some enforcing in that iirc you had to write first an explanation of what you mean to do and then the code (+ maybe the usual book contents structure though I don't recall in detail ...
diana_coman: ... how/where was that spec)
diana_coman: BingoBoingo: ahaha, that's so typical bureaucracy, yes.
BingoBoingo: In the local fashion, the floor was laid out like bad video game dungeon. "complete this obstacle, proceed to next room" Final room was covered in posters declaring that it isn't the fault of the trabajadores that the service sucks...
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-05#1020108 - dorion, I can see what you mean there; you still have 2 options though: 1. if you'd rather finish now this article and publish, you can simply make those points concisely in the introduction since they are part of the wider context but not your current focus and provide the relevant links as supporting references; 2. if you'd rather switch and write the bitcoin article ...
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-05 13:36:52 dorion: diana_coman in working on the history of main actors in Bitcoin article, I'm struggling most with the introduction in that it seems like I should put Bitcoin in context of other currencies/payment systems.
diana_coman: ... instead, you can switch to that but I suspect you'll then find you'd much rather have already written one/several of those pending articles from your own series, heh
jfw: diana_coman: asciilifeform had reacted to his understanding of MP's suggestion, saying it'd be massively impractical. He invited me to comment, so I pointed out the proposal had since been clarified; still I found myself uncertain why the change was necessary or important. He drew out his initial RSA performance point. That's about it.
diana_coman: jfw: wait, he invited you to comment on his own understanding of MP's suggestion? uhm, how would you do that? lol
diana_coman: what was this understanding or what am I not getting?
jfw: well, the claim he'd made about it at least. His notion was that every source file in, say, Linux kernel was to be rsa-signed (which was also what I'd thought at first).
diana_coman: fwiw I don't think that the proposal is yet fully clarified, no; it has been discussed a tiny bit, mainly thanks to your questions yesterday but that's far from clarified; so I have no idea what exact vision is the "massively impractical" though obviously, it's not hard to come with any number of such visions.
diana_coman: jfw: uhm, that would be easily settled though with a ...question, no?
diana_coman: lol
jfw: yes, I think his priors make him assume the worst and tune out the rest
jfw: spyked had asked that question.
dorion: diana_coman I'd rather write the pending articles first to build up to the Bitcoin article.
diana_coman: well, at least I guess I got now what the mini-thread was about; mainly about asciilifeform's understanding formed by tuning out bits; anyways, thanks jfw for bridging it in since you spent some time on it anyway.
jfw: yw diana_coman.
diana_coman: dorion: sounds rather more sensible indeed; do ask though if the intro is still troublesome or something.
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-05#1020111 - this may or may not be, you know? for one thing, who knows what's in the mind of men and all that; for the other, do you mean that as in "they didn't have where/what to look at to get started on the critical look "?
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-05 13:38:25 dorion: It seems most people remain content with fiat because they've not looked at it critically.
diana_coman: dorion: ah, now I realised I read your statement precisely the opposite, lol
dorion: diana_coman ok. as I started on the outlines up the tree from where I was, an article on what money is an why it's important looks like the proper starting point. then why and how socialist attach money.
dorion: diana_coman part of the challenge as I see it is money wasn't correctly defined/understood until the late 19th/early 20th century. as I see it, the austrians first did this, which is a reason why their forecasts have been consistently correct.
BingoBoingo: dorion: Another part of the problem is how incredibly young the fiat thing is.
diana_coman: dorion: hm, let's see, for instance the essences series, a theory of economics, thinking about money and all the bitcoin-explaining articles - not enough refs for an intro?
diana_coman: ah, there's a ref right for that, if only brain cooperates
diana_coman: essentially allocation of resources , ah
dorion: BingoBoingo I could see it. But devaluation/debauchery goes back a long way.
diana_coman: heh, both add to it and can work but not what I had in mind :( it was more to dorion's point re pretty much how /what understanding of underlying reality is baked in one monetary system or another
dorion: part of what I want to point out one of the articles up the tree is keynes and greenspan's own words that show they know what they're doing.
diana_coman: dorion: beyond those specifics though, the point at hand for your writing as such is simple: you do have something to add, sure, but that is mainly your inside & direct experience at the bank - and you'll certainly set this in the wider context, sure; but that is not to say you don't already have plenty for one intro on the article you've started on and the rabbit hole you are attracted by is huge
diana_coman: I know; and you must realise that the same words you read have been there for a long time so it's not like people don't pay them attention just because they aren't in a fresh article or something
diana_coman: I suppose I can add the squares do morals. a porno to the pile of refs relevant but not the one.
diana_coman: BingoBoingo: yes! thank you!!
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: You're welcome
dorion: diana_coman agree on both points. perhaps intermediate step is to outline what I have in mind for the other articles so at least it's out of my head and easier to judge if I can limit the rabit hole spelunking.
diana_coman: though hm, now re-reading it all I think there was some discussion too because I distinctly recall the issue of allocation/distribution of resources in more detail, hm
dorion: diana_coman http://trilema.com/2015/whoever-said-resource-allocation-is-a-solved-problem-deserves-a-kick-in-the-nads/ ?
diana_coman: dorion: outline away for sure; and yes, you basically have a lot of unwritten articles that got triggered by the "omfg, he's FINALLY writing, let's go!!!"
diana_coman: dorion: that's a preview/early thing only, hm.
diana_coman: anyways, don't let this fully eat up the time now
dorion: diana_coman ok, I'll get to the outlining and the finally writing.
diana_coman: there is also the dialogue on economy for that matter but ...still not quite there.
diana_coman: and now the dig got me into early euloran history, lol; nevertheless, for the economy curious
billymg: dorion: not trilema, but there are some good greenspan quotes in here http://www.contravex.com/2014/10/27/the-revolution-was-fiat-the-reaction-is-bitcoin/
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-05#1020113 - dorion, at any rate, it's pretty much *this* what you have most interesting to add because you get to talk there from the inside; the rest is all the context really and you can link it in and even weave it together but it's not likely to be much addition as such.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-05 13:48:22 dorion: I can then also layer on what I learned about the centralization of the correspondent banking system while working with euro pacific bank.
diana_coman: billymg: eh, it's not like it has to be trilema or something; but certainly can't build anything other than nonsense on *just quotes*; and for that matter if he needs greenspan quotes, I'm sure he can find plenty, lolz; (as an aside, contravex is "not trilema" in that pete dushenski at that time was just re-writing what he understood of trilema so dunno exactly what not-trilema)
dorion: billymg thanks! I'd read that before (and a lot more contravex), but it was a while ago and I'd forgot that article used that essy. the gold and economic freedom essay was one half of the greenspan I was going to quote, the other half was greenspan on 60 minutes about deliberately talking nonsense, 'syntax destruction' as he calls it.
dorion: diana_coman, noted on the inside perspective.
billymg: diana_coman: ah, i didn't know that before. a lot of his posts on the surface sound like (or appear to try to sound like) trilema so that certainly explains that!
diana_coman: billymg: I guess the clearest statement he has written himself would be this
billymg: diana_coman: i hadn't seen that one before, thank you
diana_coman: yw
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-05#1020131 - heh, I'd class it as entry level; for some fun, see the place that sends you mad perhaps.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-05 15:27:00 BingoBoingo: In the local fashion, the floor was laid out like bad video game dungeon. "complete this obstacle, proceed to next room" Final room was covered in posters declaring that it isn't the fault of the trabajadores that the service sucks...
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: It does seem some number of levels removed from that, mostly for the lack of more than one floor. The challenges were not physically arranged in linear fashion. Now, if the ministry of tree hugging where I had to go file an affidavit that I know how to throw away trash to import things swapped buildings with the civil registry...
BingoBoingo: The worst horror stories I've heard though all involve regularizing foreign professional degrees through the Universidad de la Republic
diana_coman: I guess the equivalence/recognition of degrees is always classed on higher levels of bureaucratic hurdles because of work rights and the like
BingoBoingo: Every venezualan doctor and dentist I've met has at least two years of coursework and the entire clinical component to redo in la manera Uruguaya.
diana_coman: well, so do they find it to be very different?
BingoBoingo: They find it more... primitive.
diana_coman: lol; but that could take more time to learn, indeed! how to make do *without*
BingoBoingo: And they very much resent the Cuban government's ocular surgeons that don't have a general medical education coming in and removing cataracts
diana_coman: eh, resentment is very easy to find reasons for.
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: The dentist I take Spanish lessons with doesn't complain about a lack of materials here so much as the content in the courses in Uruguay lagging Venezuela by some number of decades.
BingoBoingo: Ergonomics is her big complaint
diana_coman: BingoBoingo: yes, and I fully get the frustration; but it's nevertheless the rather naive sort of attempting to judge on professional grounds what is in fact simply the politics of a situation.
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: Indeed. The situation with the Cuban cataract removal specialists also has behind it that they do one thing and Cuban pays for it.
diana_coman: it's in a sense very much the equivalent of this really; the point of the exercise (and the cuban doctors example just reinforces it) has nothing to do with the actual clinical experience or anything related to the medical act as such.
ossabot: (trilema) 2020-03-04 mp_en_viaje: "people shouldn't lie" "motherfucker, I WAS TELLING A STORY!!!" what, "nevertheless!!!" what is this, jeffersonian democracy ?
BingoBoingo: I can see it.
diana_coman: at any rate, what rubs there is that on one hand "they are behind us!!!" but on the other hand the hard reality is that "the advanced" are the ones without the choice because look that all that advanced is not enough by itself so...
BingoBoingo: This "advanced" on its own does seem to be quite the tricky trap. At what cost and how many other things were missed to advance on this one front and not all these others.
BingoBoingo: And the big "is it actual advancement" question
diana_coman: and moreover, there is always the fact that "they are not as good as we *actually* are" is ~always the retort /way to compensate really.
BingoBoingo has not met anyone trying to regularize a foreign law degree here, but with ~1/4 of the graduates here being abogados or escribanos...)
diana_coman: well, law I'd say is always dubious to "regularize" since it's country specific by definition.
BingoBoingo: Indeed that's a start over from zero situation.
diana_coman: dorion: and otherwise perhaps follow those links from http://trilema.com/2010/alan-greenspan-si-criza/
diana_coman: the article itself translates to Romanian Greenspan's talks but the links get you to the original so there's nothing lost.
diana_coman: and otherwise in English directly, I suppose this
diana_coman: adding to the list for the logs, re [trilema.com/2014/lets-pretend/][gold vs bitcoin]