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BingoBoingo: dorion: If diana_coman thinks it would be a good use of your time, you can try writing tight prose for Qntra.
BingoBoingo: Also, I'm curious what the legal codes are like in Panama. Have you read them yet?
asciilifeform: diana_coman: plox to comment at your earliest chance. nitpicks/flames welcome.
ossabot: (trilema) 2019-10-21 feedbot: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=3486 << Loper OS -- TMSR North Ameristan Rack Prospectus: Initial Draft.
dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-21#1007048 << here I am laughing at myself cause I started to type... by whole world/public I meant the stakes are higher to do it correctly... and then realized that's working towards a purpose. (clears throat) If it's worth doing, do it for yourself to see it done well and have it for future reference. Do it on the blog because it lets you do it
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-21 17:55:51 diana_coman: dorion: you may be overestimating how much "the whole world" actually reads anything, lol; (and at that it's a natural overestimation pretty much ~everyone does at first); other than that, the blog medium is about more than just the public aspect - it *also* allows you to link and therefore to build on your own already-spent effort in a way that paper just can't do.
dorion: better.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-21 18:02:34 diana_coman: dorion: as you say you'll finish this series this week, I'd say focus on it then and get it done and we talk afterwards, so next Tuesday since otherwise tomorrow we still pretty much continue from where we left off last time so there isn't a big gain.
dorion: BingoBoingo I've read the Private Interest Foundation and Corporation laws, but not many of codes beyond that. Panama has territorial taxation, which means foreign earned income is not taxed and organizations structure themselves accordingly.
BingoBoingo: dorion: That's most of the world. What I mean is do they have a https://www.impo.com.uy/bases/codigo-civil/16603-1994
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-22 01:20:43 dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-21#1007048 << here I am laughing at myself cause I started to type... by whole world/public I meant the stakes are higher to do it correctly... and then realized that's working towards a purpose. (clears throat) If it's worth doing, do it for yourself to see it done well and have it for future reference. Do it on the blog because it lets you do it
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-21#1007052 - this might be an idea, I'll keep it in mind.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-21 22:11:16 BingoBoingo: dorion: If diana_coman thinks it would be a good use of your time, you can try writing tight prose for Qntra.
diana_coman: dorion: re sources and referencing: there is always a primary source aka the original author; if that's what you read, then you reference it directly as you did there ie Bastiat's Broken Window Falacy + link (and note that even in this case referencing includes the edition which in turns indicates the translator if any etc); if however it's *not* that, then it's secondary source and you *have to* indicate which of all possible ...
diana_coman: ... secondary sources have you read & therefore are you referencing.
diana_coman: all this is important on a rather basic level for intellectual activity, quite similar to food hygiene being important for body activity (and yes, not doing it properly strucks civilised people that notice it with the same sort of disgust essentially)
whaack: billymg: mega-congrats on obtaining the new property
billymg: whaack: thank you, sir
billymg: looking forward to being neighbors
billymg heads off to salt mines
diana_coman: billymg: I thought the whole point was to get out of the salt mines; or what, does the new property come with salt mine attached so you feel "like home" ? lolz
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: ty. And its not a dorion specific offer. If you think any of your pages would benefit from being drilled in Qntra style journalism, I will make myself available. After eating through more of the current pressing que, I'll probably blog out a proposal for Bingo's Qntra J-school short course.
dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-22#1007069 << It occurs to me I've had this concept, "My education started when I quit school." This is in part true, because my drive to learn was reactivated for the first time in over a decade in the nuke sense; I started to seek rather than wait to be assigned.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-22 03:46:29 diana_coman: dorion: re sources and referencing: there is always a primary source aka the original author; if that's what you read, then you reference it directly as you did there ie Bastiat's Broken Window Falacy + link (and note that even in this case referencing includes the edition which in turns indicates the translator if any etc); if however it's *not* that, then it's secondary source and you *have to* indicate which of all possible ...
dorion: However, without the proper structure to write about what I was learning, pretense leads to deskilling which if uncheck inflates the pretense and accelerates the deskilling. So thank you for the sourcing and referencing likbez, diana_coman.
dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-22#1007077 << ftr, it does interest me as qntra's been a boon to my reality processing; but in the short term reckon it's better keep deadline and heed c. jung's, "who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes."
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-22 11:46:37 BingoBoingo: diana_coman: ty. And its not a dorion specific offer. If you think any of your pages would benefit from being drilled in Qntra style journalism, I will make myself available. After eating through more of the current pressing que, I'll probably blog out a proposal for Bingo's Qntra J-school short course.
BingoBoingo: dorion: Kinda why I defer to diana_coman rather than yourself in this matter.
dorion: BingoBoingo right, understood ty.
jfw: diana_coman: I'm settled in & looking forward to conversation, at your convenience.
jfw: dorion and I grabbed cervezas yesterday, over which he aptly recounted what had just come together for him about the long history of my, shall we say, independent streak.
jfw: I could open with this, unless there's another way you'd prefer to proceed.
dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-22#1007078 << let me proactively correct my error on the referencing/sourcing there. I reckon' drawing the nuke quote from btcbase was caused by searching in #o search box rather than #t, which lead to looking in 'pre-dragon' logs. 'so help me my own intelligence and cursed be my own
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-22 12:44:58 dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-22#1007069 << It occurs to me I've had this concept, "My education started when I quit school." This is in part true, because my drive to learn was reactivated for the first time in over a decade in the nuke sense; I started to seek rather than wait to be assigned.
ossabot: (trilema) 2016-08-30 asciilifeform: 'motivation from fear is a firecracker, from interest - a nuke' as the americans used to say
dorion: stupidity.'
diana_coman: dorion: heh, good for you; and yes, there's no bot to cite the line from btcbase logs + it's unclear for how long those will stay up, anyway
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-22#1007077 - noted and thank you; that post sounds like a good idea at any rate; and fwiw I honestly had in the back of my mind to send your way any fit person I might meet but at least so far most still have to practice their basic writing more before attempting a qntra at any rate.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-22 11:46:37 BingoBoingo: diana_coman: ty. And its not a dorion specific offer. If you think any of your pages would benefit from being drilled in Qntra style journalism, I will make myself available. After eating through more of the current pressing que, I'll probably blog out a proposal for Bingo's Qntra J-school short course.
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-22#1007086 - that sounds like a very good thing to do; by now I guess you two balance yourself not-bad in many ways so good for you
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-22 14:47:07 jfw: dorion and I grabbed cervezas yesterday, over which he aptly recounted what had just come together for him about the long history of my, shall we say, independent streak.
diana_coman: jfw: and yes, quite a good way to start, why not; I'm listening.
jfw: Alright. I was born in 1989, an only-child and pretty much a "last chance" as my mother had just turned 41.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: if you have 5min, plox to help asciilifeform resolve 'catch 22'. asciilifeform is drawing prognoses for rack expansions. but presently does not know the magnitude of near-term demand. how many irons and of what type do diana_coman &c co contemplate parking in asciilifeform's usa rack ? ( no commitment implied, but i need to get gauge )
asciilifeform: ( the other side of this medal, is that i gotta make certain that the capacity for even initial l1 demand, is actually there )
jfw: My parents were long time members in the Lyndon LaRouche organization / political campaigns / "cult" / "movement"
diana_coman: asciilifeform: I personally would get one dulap for myself; depending on whether there is some concrete plan re expanding l2/bringing occupants/this-sort-of-non-technical-consideration too (please,please Stan!), there are the 2 S.MG servers looking for a house too.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: ty for the estimate. i thought, tho, that the smg orchestra is to be spread across planet ?
diana_coman: asciilifeform: as in: mirrored aka multiple servers really; not as in... what exactly do you have in mind there?
jfw: For those unfamiliar, this was a thing that started around the 1960's as a fork of the leftist 'Students for a Democratic Society' - LaRouche believed he had 'fixed the flaws in Marxism' or something like that. The message changed over the years -- 'single-issue' it was not -- but generally tried to associate with the Democratic party (to the displeasure of said party itself).
asciilifeform: as in, mirrors in multiple continents
diana_coman: jfw: I am still following you, don't worry.
diana_coman: and yes, I am not very familiar with lyndon larouche.
diana_coman: asciilifeform: yes but mirrors; need one in each place, right?
asciilifeform: larouche << very colourful american crackpot figure
asciilifeform: sorta resembles e.g. zhirinovsky
diana_coman: the 2 are production + dev; they are not mirrors of one another, no.
jfw: He ran for President at least 4x, once from federal prison. Ran on donations and print publication subscriptions
jfw: One of the perhaps more unusual aspects of their teachings was Classical (European) culture as the ~only culture worth a hill of beans
jfw: (unusual at least in the American landscape of the time)
diana_coman: quite unusual, I can imagine.
jfw: The stick that kept supporters in line was the ever-imminent collapse of the global monetary/financial system, sometimes with a side of impending nuclear war. "The system is FINISHED!"
jfw: So young me got quite the sense of proximity to specialness and urgency
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i'm not familiar in detail w/ the smg architecture, but was working under impression that mp's plan was to put e.g. 1 in euro rack, 1 possibly in mine, 1 in... tbd, and so forth
diana_coman: jfw: hm, I can see the urgency; why /in what way specialness?
jfw: While I'd be listening to Bach, Mozart, Beethoven & friends at home, my peers were listening to the Spice Girls or who knows what
diana_coman: asciilifeform: yes yes; on TOP of those basic 2.
diana_coman: jfw: ah, huh; ok.
jfw: specialness - outsiders were seen as asleep, zombies, the herd
asciilifeform: so , i'ma count smg presently as 2 prospective boxen, 500w total. ty diana_coman .
diana_coman: asciilifeform: yes; yw.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: before i let off -- didja succeed in getting euro rack just yet ? ( for asciilifeform's professional curiosity re prices/what-one-gets there )
jfw: So I had on the one hand a warm and stimulating intellectual culture at home and with parents' associates, but on the other a detachment from the larger society
diana_coman: jfw: well, at times that is a bonus (depends on society :P )
diana_coman: but I get what you mean, yes.
diana_coman: asciilifeform: no, atm it's on hold until I get somehow to day with the full huge log of stuff to do /that was pushed back because of urgency etc.
jfw: Yet my parents perceived, at least reportedly, to have no options besides sending me off to public school with the rest (in en_US, this means bottom-of-the-barrel 'free' government-sponsored school)
asciilifeform: ok. ty diana_coman , this was all i needed here. ( tho if you have moar crit re prospectus later, dun hesitate to send in. ) i'ma let off nao tho.
jfw: Peers would get insecure at how far ahead I was intellectually, and the system had minimal resources to help me along
jfw: At the same time, I was behind on height / weight / general physical aptitute, for which it likewise had minimal accomodation. One 8yo gotta be the same as every other 8yo!
diana_coman: myeah, quite usual "school" scenario
jfw: Another obstacle I had was some sort of food hyper-sensitivity. I'd call myself "vegetarian" as an approximation that people seemed more comfortable with, but it was more like, had a short whitelist of things that wouldn't evoke disgust
jfw: Thus fitting in all the less at shared mealtimes.
jfw: (Wasn't till college that I got around to mostly dealing with this by quite deliberate action - gradual desensitization to one thing at a time basically)
jfw: Yet another brushstroke - not watching TV at home ("yeah of course we HAVE a TV, can watch movies - just not cable / channels!" - still incomprehensible to my average peer.)
diana_coman: in fairness it's quite easy anyway to be incomprehensible for average age-based-peer but yes, I know of no-tv-shock.
jfw: By the time high school came around, my interests had started gravitating toward science / technology and specifically computers. I wanted to apply to the region's sci/tech magnet school, "TJ", but it was in the next county over and my folks wouldn't hear of it, imagined things would be getting better Real Soon Now. Needless to say they didn't
jfw: To their credit they came around and I got in as a sophomore transfer. It was a mixed blessing because at least I was in a more stimulating environment and could better relate to people,
jfw: but, was stuck getting up before sunrise, commuting by bus 3 hrs/day and had to choose between spending "free" time on computing interests or homework, or sleep
jfw: Made friends on the bus pretty much, but we'd always be tired and a bit stressed in that time. Later was able to get involved in theater tech, which was fun and at least somewhat sociable.
diana_coman: jfw: what is "theater tech"?
jfw: Then down to Charlottesville for college, where I'd finally get a bit more relational stability
jfw: Set construction and stage crew is what I did, also includes lights/sound operation
diana_coman: aha, ok.
jfw: I continued the theater interest, doing tech for "Shakespeare on the Lawn", also sampling other clubs like "Virginia Atheists & Agnostics", which while largely a left-leaning crowd, was where I first encountered the notion that "hey, maybe you shouldn't look to the government to solve all problems, go read Hayek"
jfw: Also took up my first 'sport', with a ski team that would carpool out to the mountains 2x/wk during the season.
diana_coman: not like the government hadn't tried by then to show you the sort of "solve" they offer, lolz.
diana_coman: and aww @ ski; /me misses the Alps.
jfw: quite. Oh, I missed the first bursting of the happy bubble... was sometime in early teenage years that I read some outside criticism of the LaRouchies - which came across as mainly mud-slinging sour grapes, but got me thinking that my intellectual diet had been a bit unbalanced and I needed to expand the horizon.
jfw: Being in the Engineering school I didn't get much exposure to whatever nonsense they were surely teaching in what passed for 'liberal arts'. In economics, I was first enthralled by Milton Friedman, and later Peter Schiff (yes)
diana_coman: I see.
jfw: But perhaps as the ready-made career path was on a good track -- I was doing summer internships with a Northern VA IT consulting firm I'd go full time with after graduation -- I didn't engage to the same degree as dorion
jfw: Speaking of graduation, I almost didn't: while I did great in the CS courses, I didn't invest the effort that in hindsight would have been necessary in the side requirements, particularly math and "Science, Technology and Society" aka some kind of philosophy for engineers, and writing was a particularly sore spot
diana_coman: jfw: o.O how is that great in CS without...maths??
jfw: Tthe math part there is one regret, because I've always liked it. Well, things like differential equations which I can't say I've yet had a need for
jfw: (I'm sure in something like shrysr's fluid dynamics, one would need)
jfw: 'Survey of Modern Algebra' I did OK at, upon putting in the effort. That was things like group theory and possibly the first "you actually gotta prove things now, not just replay formula"
diana_coman: jfw: fwiw writing is certainly pre-uni skill in any sane place.
jfw: funny thing there is I chose UVA over Va. Tech because, of the places I was accepted and could afford, it's the one that had more rigorous admissions including essay
diana_coman: jfw: so ok at algebra; barely literate at analysis, is that it?
jfw: Not sure what "analysis" covers so I guess that'd be a "yes"...
diana_coman: lol, ok.
diana_coman: mathematical analysis, it's a branch; but go ahead.
jfw: let's see, so I go off to work in IT, system administration basically, which was something I had become skilled enough at along the way, but not really my driving interest or what I'd studied
jfw: But I had a high priority on building up savings, to have more leeway to make decisions, so I stuck at it for ~1.5yr.
jfw: Meanwhile continued to hear how doomed USA was, from a different angle than in childhood; and yes, also encountered Stefan Molyneux. I was taken with his approach of focusing on your own problems before talking about the outside world and risking projecting.
diana_coman: jfw: was this work still close to your parents' home/were you still in the same environment out of office hours?
jfw: ~25 minute drive; I got my own place across from the office after the first 6 months.
jfw: I definitely didn't like living with parents for more than couple weeks at a time. (net cutting up a bit right now...)
diana_coman: jfw: so at the time your plan was to save some money and then ..?
jfw: I can't say I knew up front.
diana_coman: jfw: all right; sysadmin; and then?
jfw: In 2013, the Snowden news happened, and the impacts of Obamacare had trickled down to the paychecks, to the tune of something like 60% premium hikes
diana_coman: ahahaha; right.
jfw: I decided it was time to get out. Willing to lose the job if I had to, but they kept me on board for part-time work
jfw: Had also broken up with a girl earlier in the year, and didn't have the strongest relationships otherwise locally, so the decision was easy enough in that regard
jfw: Came down to Panama, with a refundable onward ticket to Chile in the event that didn't work out. No contacts there and barely any Spanish, so I worked through the beginner stuff as quick as I could.
diana_coman: jfw: why/how come Panama of all places?
jfw: I'd been reading & listening to a fellow going by "Simon Black" who had sung its praises -- though tempered with reservations. There was the territorial tax thing where in theory my income could be siphoned by neither US nor Panama, and one could get permanent residency for <$5k
diana_coman: asciilifeform: ^ :P
jfw: In practice, there's still "self-employment tax" i.e. Social Security to deal with; it's supposedly possible by adding a third jurisdiction and the ensuing paperwork & costs.
diana_coman: jfw: ok; landed in Panama without much of a concrete plan otherwise I gather; gobbled up Spanish and basic stuff as quickly as possible; what came you way then?
jfw: So I stuck around to get the residency process done, at which point (2014) I'd got a year's lease, met dorion, and through him the then-Coinapult crowd
diana_coman: jfw: were you just living out of your savings at that point or what?
jfw: But not being in much need of income or them seemingly in much need of me, I stuck to my own thing
diana_coman: jfw: what was your own thing?
jfw: Savings carried a while, then I'd top up by remote work
diana_coman: where/what sort of remote work?
jfw: The same company as before, doing the portion of their server upkeep as could be done remotely
jfw: well, more than server upkeep -
jfw: they were doing an ERP deployment which brought up all sorts of integration problems with existing systems, so I did some glue coding for example
diana_coman: at least very useful sysadmin/work if they wanted you even remote.
jfw: Also got to do some travel for a consulting gig with a client of theirs.
jfw: Yeah I'd established my value pretty clearly to them at least.
jfw: My own thing:
jfw: Despite things going fairly well at the office, I wasn't seeing it going in the direction I wanted, and the pay seemed to have reached a ceiling
diana_coman: jfw: well uhm, to the extent it was just remote work, I don't quite see how/why was it your own thing; it was...their thing.
diana_coman: but anyway, ok; so 2014, met coinapult via dorion but not sucked into it; and then?
jfw: I wanted to re-dedicate myself to the programming craft, so did various exercises on my own. (For their thing I had gone part-time.)
jfw: (here, collecting thoughts.)
jfw: I was making some effort to be informed about Bitcoin, because it certainly seemed pretty significant and the market concurred, though I hadn't identified useful channels for doing this.
diana_coman: what market is that?
jfw: e.g. BTCUSD exchanges
diana_coman: jfw: did you buy btc in 2014 or how come you got to it anyway?
jfw: I had bought a small amount in late 2012, and added a bit more through 2013
jfw: Was succumbing partially to the temptation of selling to top up income in 2014-15 as I recall.
diana_coman: jfw: ok, give me the main milestones from 2014 on and how you ended up ...uhm, teaching people or is that training or what?
jfw: alright. The Coinapult hack was... 2014 or whenever it was. Dorion was destabilized as he mentioned, we started hanging out more
jfw: I'd go meet with Ira (ex-CTO) from time to time, he still seemed an interesting character at least
jfw: In early 2016, it turned out the new, much-downsized Coinapult had been running with ~no IT help for about a year. I took them on as a part-time gig; within 2 months I'd seen this was a mistake and got out.
diana_coman: heh, good for you.
jfw: Or possibly was fired, rumor would have it. They never told me as such!
jfw: At this point, by dorion's urging I had put on my thick skin and started following #b-a / trilema; the BitBet drama was happening at the time which was pretty perplexing from the outside.
diana_coman: I guess ~everything is pretty perplexing from the outside.
jfw: In the sense that, I could buy the argument of whoever happened to be speaking
diana_coman: ahahaa
diana_coman: that means -> have no idea.
jfw: yup
jfw: heh, dorion pointed out it could be good to mention my first buy-in price: $13 and 37 cents from a limit order on... campbx I think it was.
diana_coman: dorion: yo, mention here if you have mentions, don't prod him behind the scenes! lolz
diana_coman: dorion: so now you get to answer: why would that be good to mention?
diana_coman: jfw: followed the bitbet drama; then?
jfw: ah correction, he said 'fun' to mention, and was earlier in thread.
jfw: Ira was on a 'decentralizing' mission
diana_coman: jfw: awww, saving his skin there.
jfw: He was trying to make a kind of programming co-op or 'guild' he called it, where one could bid for tasks, receive rep / btc, recorded in Git
jfw: Also at this time dorion & his contact were toying with the brokerage idea, which was much more interesting to me, but I did some tool development tasks for Ira for cash
jfw: Through that I soon found that the support he had shown me in my struggles with new-Coinapult soon turned to friction and he didn't have much regard for my input, so I got out of that too.
dorion: diana_coman word. jfw cause btc is about money and selling usd at $13.37 to the btc is leet.
diana_coman: dorion: well, money and timing, lol.
jfw: Mid to late 2016 we commit to our own business. I think he and I saw it as a chance to do everything 'properly'; my thinking now is we hadn't adequately processed the good and the bad of Coinapult and pretty much took a "do the exact opposite" approach
diana_coman: jfw: ftr that idea sounds about as inept as what I've heard from reading uni students only quite recently.
jfw: The third partner in question was a fiat equities broker who told us he had lots of interested clients and seemed like he could get bank accounts
diana_coman: dorion: does jfw's eval above sound right to you too?
diana_coman: jfw: was this dorion's idea+plan & he drafted you in for the tech or what was your role in it?
jfw: 'that idea' refers to the 'guild' thing ?
diana_coman: jfw: yes; ira's idea.
dorion: diana_coman let me properly read (was also drafting article leaving jfw the mic, which is why I wasn't talking in chan).
jfw: The idea started with he and the other guy, then I got on board for tech, yes.
diana_coman: jfw: as to your business idea 1. it's not yet fully clear what it was 2. at least you had the sense to draft in someone with some finance experience (or so it seems)
diana_coman: dorion: serves you right for earlier jfw-prodding :P
diana_coman: jfw: since you had followed even the bitbet story at the time, hadn't you stumbled upon hanbot's posts?
jfw: The idea was: 1. get corporation and bank accounts; 2. BTC exchange accounts from which to fill orders when the local book didn't supply, operating by API as securely as we could manage; 3. provide GPG interface for client order submission. We understood this would mean people trusting us, so made security a high priority
jfw: I had seen some of them, yes. Fully digested, probably not
diana_coman: jfw: except finance is not at all only tech; sigh.
jfw: but yes I did at least know I and he couldn't do it on our own.
diana_coman: for the logs: hanbot's posts aka MPOE-PR on bitcointalk.org , see http://trilema.com/2013/mpoe-pr-almost-two-years-in-the-swamp-an-anthology/
dorion: diana_coman jfw is correct. ira was making open source brokerage, exchange and wallet software. the idea was to post bounties for the tasks, financed by consulting he'd aimed at negotiating with start ups.
diana_coman: dorion: so this still involved ira?
dorion: originally yes.
diana_coman: I see; ok.
jfw: We thought his existing software would provide a starting point; upon looking closer we found there really wasn't much there and what there was, was a mess
dorion: right, since ira was planning to publish everything, the idea was to evaluate what he published over time and see that we could use for our purposes.
diana_coman: jfw: ahahaha, doesn't that sound familiar.
diana_coman: jfw: all right; what is the current biz ?
dorion: the main part that sunk coinapult was the misallocation to support the masses, our plan was to appeal only to high value clients.
jfw: If I may, before getting to current - the main problem that we percieved with the previous, was getting the elder (relative to us at least) finance partner up to speed on tech / security
jfw: He'd be all friendly and say he'd put in the time, but not follow through. THen likewise with more basic things like forming company.
diana_coman: dorion: such parts don't appear in a ...vacuum, I think you said, remember?
diana_coman: jfw: oh boy; next I'll hear he sent you to London/somewhere to work with his good-friend there on some business and then it just..somehow, did not work out; lolz.
dorion: diana_coman right.
jfw: So we had poor judgement, didn't do diligence on him I suppose.
diana_coman: jfw: I was just amused because it's such a ...how to put it, an old story if you will; don't worry now about it though.
dorion: diana_coman didn't go that far. we were patient with him because on the other hard, the development work continued to be chewed away at, but not delivered.
dorion: diana_coman that happened to Benjamin Franklin!
diana_coman: dorion: ha! well don1
diana_coman: dorion: now go and see to your draft and leave jfw alone for a bit, will you?
dorion: yes, on it!
jfw: (also true re development delays.) So current biz is to find people with BTC, or interested in it, but lacking knowledge of how to hold it in a good way, and provide a decent hardware & software option and training on its use.
diana_coman: jfw: so what's the decent hardware & software option?
jfw: The hope also is that some of these grow into longer term trade relationships with more secure individuals.
jfw: Machines with blob-free Coreboot/LinuxBIOS, at least one 'online' and one laptop for 'offline'; one way at a time optical isolation for comms between the two; FUCKGOATS TRNG; my Linux distro; TRB node for the 'online'
diana_coman: jfw: o.O did you buy FG or make your own from the schematics or what?
jfw: We bought 5 in the original release - at the time thinking 'just for us'. Ability to source more is a worry now for sure.
diana_coman: jfw: what trade is that meant to be re "longer term trade relationships"? more/further training or what?
jfw: no, BTC / other assets
jfw: is this stupid to contemplate?
diana_coman: jfw: so are you educating your market there or how do you see this?
diana_coman: jfw: I don't quite get what you are trying there.
asciilifeform remembers jfw as 1 of the 'mystery' FG buyers from '16-17. ( tho tradition is that asciilifeform does not mention who buys FG unless buyer 1st publicly speaks, jfw spoke, during the '#t went dark' thread , re subj. )
diana_coman: jfw: if you don't actually know, that's an answer too.
jfw: Educating our network, with the idea it could become a market, where previously nobody with money outside here would have a clue what we were saying re GPG etc.
diana_coman: jfw: that in itself is certainly not a bad idea as far as I can see; the unclear/dubious part was re mid/long-term vision; but anyway, you're focused mainly on the tech I gather so possibly not all that clear on that part.
jfw: possibly, yes
diana_coman: jfw: now the trouble is this gap that you accumulated and quite knowingly/with intention over those past few years; eg on one hand good enough to buy fg 2-3 years ago but somehow not good enough to say hi at the very least.
diana_coman: jfw: I don't know if you appreciate this but you can't just pop in with "hi guyz, here's my OS"
diana_coman: jfw: what was your plan anyway re this? since I remember you did have some intention this year at least to introduce yourself
jfw: I do, and wish to dig out of this hole, because what else can I do. Unsure how though.
asciilifeform found it esp. interesting that someone would buy fg but not 'say hi', given as it is imho intrinsically an artifact that is worth little unless you have a sense of who made it, and why, and have proper wot link-up to its origin
jfw: Plan was to try to engage conversations where I could, get blog up to introduce self more propelry
jfw: *properly lol
jfw: asciilifeform: I could see at least it was only option without the 'whitening' and only vendor even talking about that
diana_coman: asciilifeform: funny how you say that when it maps so close to some of your hangups, lolz.
jfw: focused on verifiability
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i've 9000 hangups, lol. which 1 are you thinking of ?
diana_coman: asciilifeform: you evaluate the tech very well and even prod it at length; but you don't particularly see the need for that to talk to the guys who made it and/or "ah, they won't answer anyway" etc.
jfw: asciilifeform does at least seem to have less hangup on 'talk to people' than jfw...
diana_coman: or at least that's how it seems from here
diana_coman: jfw: well, you've been talking here for hours, what are you on about!
jfw: floodgates opened!
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i've moar of a chronicle-talks hangup than 'talks' per se ( had to have endless talks w/ factory people when made FG; iron vendors; and most recently, rack folx ) but the experience is so frustrating that difficult to bring self to write about it at length .
diana_coman: asciilifeform: he's quite hang up on chronicling too, no worries :))
diana_coman: jfw: on the tech side, how dearly are you married to strictly your stuff there?
jfw: I'm quite open to exploring polygamy, lol
diana_coman: jfw: ahaha, not bad as an answer at least.
jfw: in particular I absolutely want to learn Ada
diana_coman: jfw: what progr languages do you know anyway?
jfw: C, C++, Python, Java (if life depended on), JS (likewise), OCaml, Scheme... I'd file under "know", though "read spec cover-to-cover" only for Scheme. Dabbled in more, to be sure.
asciilifeform: 'read spec' != 'know' tho. can read schematics of bmw for years, but not know how to drive etc
jfw: of which, hmm, CL, Haskell, Mathematica (long ago), VB (likewise), x86/amd64 assembly, 6802 machine code. I'll not offend anyone by counting 'html' a prog lang
asciilifeform: jfw: in which of these didja have occasion to write nontrivial (i.e. not school hw) proggy ?
diana_coman: jfw: what is what you want most (ONE thing) out of the effort I'll ask from you in here?
jfw: asciilifeform: true, though also non-homework doesn't necessarily mean non-trivial, let me review and get back to you on that.
jfw: ah forgot SQL for at least the 'dabbled', possibly others. diana_coman: thinking...
diana_coman: jfw: re languages it's ok, I wanted to get some idea of exposure & types more than anything else.
jfw: diana_coman: if this isn't too broad a "one thing", I want integration of my professed values, my actions, and what's good for me.
jfw: I want respect / recognition and see that as the path to it.
diana_coman: jfw: what are your professed values?
diana_coman: (works as a one thing; not too broad for that, no)
diana_coman: jfw: or are those still to be found (ie do you just mean there harmony basically)?
jfw: To pursue useful knowledge; to act on it and share it and its fruits with those who deserve; to honor one's word. Would be a start.
jfw: But to the extent currently perceived values are stupid, I want to change them, yes.
jfw: ^ would be high-level values, besides lower ones like 'this computer and not that computer'
diana_coman: jfw: ahahah, computer choices are at most some specific application of values, not themselves values, lolz.
diana_coman: jfw: why/how come you think I'm anyway able to help you with such a thing?
jfw: Because I have seen you hold people to the truth or getting to the root of matters, facing discomfort and doing what is needed. I perceive you to be highly effective in your own affairs, and enjoy the good esteem of MP who is likewise in his.
jfw: *and to enjoy
diana_coman: jfw: as long as you don't think I'm some sort of perfection, it might even work.
jfw: I understand you are indeed human and that just means I gotta communicate myself all the more clearly.
diana_coman: jfw: and more to the point, I *can* make mistakes too; your bet and hope there is that my mistakes are less worse than yours and/or my recovery from them is better than yours.
jfw: Indeed. And it may be a while but I will be happy if some time I can help you see a mistake of yours.
jfw: I understand there's no guarantee about you, but neither is there on any other path.
diana_coman: jfw: indeed; the issue though is one of commitment really, esp since by taking you on I have to take on this bridge-that-gap thing that is potentially very charged.
jfw: Would you like to reflect on it further, or ask me more questions?
jfw: I'll be re-reading the log for sure
diana_coman: jfw: do you get what the WoT is and how it works?
diana_coman: (and lol, do you think I wouldn't just say precisely "will reflect and let you know" and/or ask the questions I needed?)
jfw: It is a representation of the graph of trust or distrust and their respective certainty level in human relationships. How it works, I think means how to use it effectively at which I think myself a beginner.
jfw: heh, glad at least I knew what you might say, sorry for the noise then.
diana_coman: jfw: it's not just noise, more a matter of knowing what is whose worry really; it's not serving anyone (and you especially) well to confuse the roles really.
jfw: gotcha.
jfw: huh, "how it works" probably not the same as "how to use it" as those are separate clauses in the canonical article title...
diana_coman: jfw: anyway, given your long time on the fence (that wasn't spent idly from what I could see) + http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-15#1006462 , I'm inclined to think you know it's not just "get out" if/when inconvenient
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-15 23:18:01 jfw: The neighbors are probably wondering who died; as far as I could tell it was gonna be either my 5-year best friends relationship with him, my potential relationships with ~everyone here, or a particularly stubborn bit of our own stupidity.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-22 19:06:08 jfw: huh, "how it works" probably not the same as "how to use it" as those are separate clauses in the canonical article title...
jfw: http://trilema.com/2014/what-the-wot-is-for-how-it-works-and-how-to-use-it/ that is (wasn't avoiding citing, just digging for link.)
diana_coman: jfw: all right; I'll take you on; I'll set you up with an account on yh by the end of this week; meanwhile you still have at least 1 article to write&publish on your blog for sure.
jfw: Thank you Master Diana Coman. There a specific article you have in mind there or just getting the flow started?
diana_coman: jfw: http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2019/hello-world/?b=illustrate&end=#select - that bit there is such a bunch of avoidance that you'd better start with the illustration mentioned
jfw: Will do.
diana_coman: and no, don't agonize; see the 3-steps process: 1. write down *the draft without worrying about everything at once* 2. proofread and basic revision 3. *after some time, at the very least 1 hour* re-read and do ONE proper, full revision if/as needed
diana_coman: jfw: and then you publish it, that's it; if it sucks, it's ok, you'll get told in clear enough terms.
whaack: jfw: if you went to TJ then you may know of my high school, Stuyvesant. Do you come to CR ever?
jfw: How should I approach "discuss my status in considering submission to Diana Coman's mentorship if I can get it", given the considering is complete? Just saying that?
diana_coman: jfw: that would be a 2nd post, namely write-up your experience from stumbling on #o to now; on post 1 though focus on the adventures to bringing blog online, it's enough for one post.
jfw: whaack: I've heard of it, yes, and my dad was a Bronx Science kid. Was gonna mention earlier but figured, first things first. Pleased to meet you btw. Haven't been to CR as yet.
diana_coman: jfw: for that matter it would be quite useful to you to look back and structure the whole thing + write it up for later, it's been close to a month anyway by now.
whaack: jfw: i may want to keep my 90 day visa in order until I get residency in CR so I'll likely be making a trip to Panama in the next 3 or 6 months
jfw: whaack: cool, keep me posted, I'd be glad to meet up somewhere or have you over.
diana_coman: jfw: shrysr whaack get yourselves a proper avatar on your blog, will you? mp-wp will use whatever you have as avatar.png on your domain eg mine is http://ossasepia.com/avatar.png
diana_coman: blogs*
jfw: diana_coman: ack on looking back on month, avatar.
diana_coman: whaack you blog that.
jfw: Probably going to be visiting family back north around Christmas but otherwise should be around.
whaack: diana_coman: certainly.
whaack: and also I will get an avatar pic up by tonight
dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-22#1007357 << congrats jfw. I've not read through the backlog, but will tonight after the Junto. (jfw and I've been organizing a 'learning group' which meets a couple times a month, in the Benjamin Franklin spirit, for nearly 2 years now.)
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-22 19:08:40 diana_coman: jfw: all right; I'll take you on; I'll set you up with an account on yh by the end of this week; meanwhile you still have at least 1 article to write&publish on your blog for sure.
dorion: bbl.
whaack: (btw for those reading the logs, the relationship between TJ and Stuyvesant is that they are both magnet high schools in the US that have math teams that do well in national scholastic competitions. The entrance exam for Stuyvesant, the only criteria that is considered for admission, is the same entrance exam used for Bronx Science)
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