diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-25#1003976 - that's actually how it works, it's never about what you "like" really, it's always about what you will not live without or in other words, no matter how scrumptious the carrots you see, it's still the stick that actually makes you move.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 19:57:54 lobbes: in other words, no matter how "happy" I was there was always something "missing", and this gnawed at me day after day. I'd rather be the best me I can be, as diana_coman says, rather than just waste away
jfw: Here's to that, lobbes; and this all speaks to me - the pangs of doubt, but gnawing unhappiness with "plant-happiness".
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-23 10:23:29 diana_coman: jfw: probably the above is of interest to you too.
jfw: diana_coman: I'm caught up on present log, and numerically at least I'm getting more efficient at this. Monday night + Tuesday I got much of my whirlwind of thoughts captured in writing; I'd like to review this to see what sticks or should be expanded and published. I have not yet managed to get into the back log.
jfw: My esteem for you has only grown from reading so far -- but I have not yet killed the lingering doubts, so I will keep at it.
jfw: ('doubts' in the context of the linked convo, that is: as to whether this is the path for me.)
diana_coman: jfw: so spell out those doubts and look at them properly esp. what's their root or they are very unlikely indeed to go away.
diana_coman: if this is of the sort "I think I'm better off on my own" then it's quite easy to sort out too - set yourself a big goal and a deadline for it - e.g. "I'll make it to lordship on my own steam by April 2021 or I'll go on 1st of May 2022 on my knees to whoever will take me and do something useful with me"
diana_coman: if it is though of the protection/avoidance sort, you either face it or get screwed by it.
diana_coman: shrysr thimbronion whaack whaack_travel crucial and therefore mandatory reading: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log-raw/trilema?istart=1938185&iend=1938213
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-26#1003986 - that should be 1st of May 2021, of course.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 05:27:48 diana_coman: if this is of the sort "I think I'm better off on my own" then it's quite easy to sort out too - set yourself a big goal and a deadline for it - e.g. "I'll make it to lordship on my own steam by April 2021 or I'll go on 1st of May 2022 on my knees to whoever will take me and do something useful with me"
shrysr: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-26#1003977 << ima chew on this and will write a post. fwiw a draft was written yest.. but ofc has a lot to refine.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 03:18:24 diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-25#1003976 - that's actually how it works, it's never about what you "like" really, it's always about what you will not live without or in other words, no matter how scrumptious the carrots you see, it's still the stick that actually makes you move.
shrysr: hmm, shdnt ^ have also shown lobbes message as well
diana_coman: shrysr: how do you mean?
shrysr: as in i referenced your line, which is referencing lobbes line > and iirc earlier bot wd show each line being referenced?
diana_coman: bot cites only one line, not several; when several lines are cited it's because of interplay between bots (ie if you cited from ossabot's log a line that included a citation from snsabot's log then you'd have both)
shrysr: ah right. ok.
thimbronion: diana_coman: http://younghands.club/2019/09/26/takeover-irc/
shrysr: diana_coman: yea cite i guess is correct word here. fwiw i setup that citation + bibliography thingy yesterday. Guess it shd be easy henceforth to cite stuff in whatever I write henceforth.
shrysr: well atleast technical papers for sure.
shrysr: diana_coman: what exactly *is* lordship, and how does it tie in to being master? also - if you are a lord, and MP is a lord, but you work for MP? shdnt that make him .. like extra-lordy or something?
lobbes: this here republic has a complex social hierarchy, akin to feudalism with its various fiefdoms.
lobbes: but I'm unequipped to properly explain it, I think, and I risk explaining it wrong. in any case /me looks forward to diana_coman's explanation
shrysr: hey thimbronion - you might find it useful to check out feedbot. I use RSS readers n all, but this is quite handy for focused younghands notifications, i.e i guess there is no need to re-post link in chan unless diana_coman wants it. note: I have been using it, but not sure what
ossabot: Logged on 2019-08-19 14:21:06 diana_alt: shrysr: never mind, you need to be L1 so not yet; leave feedbot alone
thimbronion: shrysr: thanks. I'll check it out.
shrysr: lobbes: actually, it was explained earlier, but i was thinking abt the feudal relationship between the lords here.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-13 11:38:50 diana_coman: shrysr: anyway, the core of the code was essentially what you'd call now a "code of conduct" but otherwise and more to the point, an attempt to state the relationship between lord (liege/master) and knight (as lower, trained nobility)
lobbes: at least in my case, there is this example. I originally created an auction bot (prototype back then) for MP's #eulora channel. In a sense, while I am technically in the lordship as well as he, *he* is still the one who granted me a license to operate such a bot in his channel(s).
lobbes: I was reminded of the fact that I operate on his land, in a sense, in when "debating" if to have the new auctionbot deal in euloran currency (eCu) or straight btc. I was met in the forum with a "bot deals in ecu or I kick it from chan and have someone else stand up a bot"
lobbes: That solved that in sort order, you see. That is the wonders of actual captialism; it cuts through and gets right to the point
shrysr: ty lobbes, that example helps.
lobbes: yw. I'm glad it did!
shrysr: I guess the query also extends to what does an empty castle or chan signify in terms of lordship? Is there a lord's pledge too or it that each lord completely free to set the law/behave however in their fief? And is attaining lordship only based on completing chosen goal and lol what about retaining lordship?
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 05:27:48 diana_coman: if this is of the sort "I think I'm better off on my own" then it's quite easy to sort out too - set yourself a big goal and a deadline for it - e.g. "I'll make it to lordship on my own steam by April 2021 or I'll go on 1st of May 2022 on my knees to whoever will take me and do something useful with me"
diana_coman: shrysr: MP is the King if you go with the feudal titles ie absolute top of the tmsr hierarchy
diana_coman: thimbronion: yo, you've put in the wrong link to your *own* website, lmao; I agree it probably would have been easier to have it thimbronion.com but...you chose it as thimbron.com, lolz
thimbronion: diana_coman: doh!
diana_coman: thimbronion: note that "pick one" is not something to sweat over - remember that the goal is to end up on ALL of them ANYWAY
diana_coman: so in this sense, whichever one you "pick" works just fine
diana_coman: the "pick" is simply - go and stand up a server on that network; the first non-freenode one on which you got that, is "the pick"
thimbronion: diana_coman: my best summary of the criteria so far is: one of the top 3 networks (specifically excluding freenode which may not even be in the top three anyway)
diana_coman: thimbronion: sweating over this "choice" is premature optimisation; given that we want to be in the end on all of them, the *only* real consideration currently would be "the easiest to setup a server on and bridge from"; but since you can't know that upfront really, it doesn't matter much
thimbronion: diana_coman: got it.
diana_coman: ie start literally by standing up a server on whichever network works; you can pick it rolling a dice for all it matters
diana_coman: shrysr: thimbronion L1 means level 1 in the ratings-web that has deedbot at its centre; specifically: those rated directly by deedbot are "L0"; those rated by someone that deedbot rated are "L1" and so forth
diana_coman: until very recently (yesterday), L0 meant the lordship so you'd be in L1 if a lord rated you (positively,ofc)
diana_coman: so shrysr you can use feedbot because I rated you;
diana_coman: once the new model is deployed (lordship = rating 9 from MP rather than rating>0 from deedbot), I'll get around to update the ratings too;
diana_coman: thimbronion: http://younghands.club/2019/09/26/takeover-irc/#comment-29 (but yes, you should follow the rss feeds for younghands.club esp the one for comments)
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-26#1004001 - note though that there is no reason why one lord can't work for another, what; don't mix tmsr hierarchy (which is at the end of the day about *role*; yes, roles can't be fulfilled by those undeserving but that doesn't mean that role *makes one deserving*, ugh)
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 12:14:05 shrysr: diana_coman: what exactly *is* lordship, and how does it tie in to being master? also - if you are a lord, and MP is a lord, but you work for MP? shdnt that make him .. like extra-lordy or something?
thimbronion: diana_coman: followed
diana_coman: shrysr: let's detangle this: MP is the king (absolute ruler) of TMSR; he (as the absolute ruler that he is) then proceeds to markedly split the population into 2 groups: the lordship and the rest;
diana_coman: an important part to note there is that these are *not fixed* groups
diana_coman: ie non-lords can become lords and the other way around; this is important because absent such mobility, what you get is going nowhere in a short time
diana_coman: now, what makes a lord? strictly speaking, MP's decision and ultimately yes, it's his choice; but there are some crucial criteria that are more like "minimum bar" rather than anything else:
diana_coman: ie a lord, as a minimum, is someone holding a fief (so active and in charge of some tmsr-relevant piece) + participating in the tmsr court/ halls (aka #trilema)
diana_coman: note that lordship is ultimately a recognition of *usefulness* , nothing more, nothing less
diana_coman: and the important part there is that it *follows* (not precedes) said usefulness but it doesn't say anything about (nor impose restrictions on) the lord's nature or private arrangements or whatever
diana_coman: and for that matter, one can be a master without being a lord, perfectly fine
diana_coman: shrysr: to round it up: making it to lordship means strictly "have intelligent and relevant things to say + be so active and useful to tmsr that the other lords want you among them in #t"
diana_coman: note that there isn't even any requirement to ...accept lordship, after all; while it hasn't yet happened, I don't see why it wouldn't, some time.
diana_coman: so now, the above is *not* to be mixed with one's own nature or their current interests; one can be a slave and part of the lordship; one can be a Master and not part of the lordship; *any* combination really.
shrysr: diana_coman: ty. i think i understand now. Was also wondering - what happens to the system + model if the king is marooned on mars or drops dead?
diana_coman: for that matter, lobbes is a lord; this doesn't mean that he's barred from getting help in here (or I'm not barred from helping him), what sense would that make
diana_coman: shrysr: it's a republic of people, not systems/models; as such, if at that time there is someone able to actually be a King, then it goes on as they steer it; if not, it dies whatever death it dies.
diana_coman: shrysr: what happens to this chan here if I get marooned on mars or I drop dead?
shrysr: well tbh lol i kindda worry about that.... (not that much.. but thought has occurred). I presume... chan wd just die unless someone decided to take up the cause/purpose of the chan.
diana_coman: shrysr: it's not just "decided" really; I mean: sure, one can decide to anything but whether it works or how it works depends on a whole lot more than "decided to"; there is however *no possible escape* from this; the moment you try to make it "independent of individuals", the only possible result is ...sterile bureaucracy.
diana_coman: shrysr: essentially, what happens when the King dies (or equivalent) is that the republic as-it-was dies one death anyway but in some happy cases, it manages to be reborn/reincarnated in the same place (in the shape that the new King gives it) and quickly enough that the population doesn't suffer too great losses, that's pretty much it.
diana_coman: ie "continuity" is to some extent an illusion: sure, it's named the same and it follows even perhaps similar principles but to the extent that it is what the King makes it, it can't be said to be "the same"
diana_coman: and there is no need or desired for it to be "the same" either, it should change; continuity of the above sort is quite enough really (I suppose the usual "you can't step twice in the same river" might help to illustrate why not the same)
shrysr: re: sterile bureaucrazy - yes.. i see what you mean.
shrysr: re: not same + what king makes it : yes, i get that.
diana_coman: but yes, it's basically *the reason* why one would defend the king/the master, if nothing else.
asciilifeform: shrysr: do you know the story of english prof. bentham ?
asciilifeform: shrysr: fella had himself stuffed after died, so 'could continue to sit at meetings'
asciilifeform: shrysr: when i think of attempts at 'continuity in spite of errything!11' -- is what i picture.
asciilifeform: iirc diana_coman for many yrs was in england, perhaps has even seen this mummified 'chairman'.
shrysr: asciilifeform: not heard of prof bentham. but lmao :)) that picture explains it rather well.
diana_coman: asciilifeform: neah, I have no curiosity really but fwiw the "Parlament debates" here are usually hillarious, quite more fun than any plays/sketches they manage to write/act otherwise.
asciilifeform: people make fun of mummified lenin, but at least the latter did not demand to be wheeled into meetings of politburo after died
diana_coman: asciilifeform: I don't know bentham demanded that though, hm; iirc he asked to be dissected (ie body used for study) and then preserved, that's all.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: possibly legend. but is what i associate with him.
diana_coman: onth I wonder how long it would take until some committee or another notices if one of its "members" is stuffed.
diana_coman: aha,it's a perfect illustration, yes;
asciilifeform: iirc bentham could be seen at oxford , until someone made off with the head...
diana_coman: possibly why not seen; I've been to Oxford otherwise quite a number of times so I think I'd have spotted him.
shrysr: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-26#1004057 << conversely - it is not impossible for lordship to overthrow the king? needn't kill him while asleep or something, and I can tie in with lobbes example - but lordship + rest cd establish separate 'republic' if 'pissed off' with the king? (Doesnt mean they wd be successful ofc). And the
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 14:43:56 diana_coman: but yes, it's basically *the reason* why one would defend the king/the master, if nothing else.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 12:46:38 lobbes: I was reminded of the fact that I operate on his land, in a sense, in when "debating" if to have the new auctionbot deal in euloran currency (eCu) or straight btc. I was met in the forum with a "bot deals in ecu or I kick it from chan and have someone else stand up a bot"
shrysr: vassalage relationship i.e protection n guidance, is offered by the king to the lords - yes?
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-13 11:43:09 diana_coman: as for the feudal relationship of vasselage - the core of it would be that : a. the lord offers protection and guidance, possibly also a fief b. the vassal in return pledges unconditional loyalty and support when asked for it (in pretty much whatever form is asked for)
asciilifeform: shrysr: historically we had several folx who went away with 'i'ma make my own tmsr! with hookers and blackjack!' but 0 interesting came of these.
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-26#1004071 - they can desert, of course, though it makes about ~0 sense really (why start from 0 when there is the thing already); as asciilifeform points out though, cast-aways and splits did happen but with 0 real effect
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 15:22:54 shrysr: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-26#1004057 << conversely - it is not impossible for lordship to overthrow the king? needn't kill him while asleep or something, and I can tie in with lobbes example - but lordship + rest cd establish separate 'republic' if 'pissed off' with the king? (Doesnt mean they wd be successful ofc). And the
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-26#1004074- afaik it hasn't been made explicit/stated as such, no; and remember that in the original medieval code, vasselage was an add-on essentially so possibly not (yet) relevant really
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 15:22:56 shrysr: vassalage relationship i.e protection n guidance, is offered by the king to the lords - yes?
diana_coman: the important part is that the King is the ultimate authority (the one with whom the buck stops); as such, public authority flows inevitably from him, yes; that's about it.
diana_coman: shrysr: remember that tmsr is still this thing here, growing as it sees fit; it's not a "let's copy medieval times" or something - to the extent that the growth happens (for reasons related to what growth is) similarly to that past thing, the same structures will naturally follow and therefore the same names might meaningfully be used
diana_coman: but that doesn't mean that we're stuck now in having to import everything just because it was done then.
shrysr: diana_coman: right. i understand.. and that makes sense to me as well...there has to be some basis i guess, and it has to be built/modified as required. fwiw /me likey tmsr. Though I guess I am somewhat uncomfortable with the concept of a King, but I'm aware 'things' depend on how the King, and Lords are i.e people based. i will admit i've even worked with some leaders at minez who have made me wanna ...
shrysr: be like them (someday) fwiw. though ofc such ppl seem rather rare and still hard to access but imho it makes all the difference. Particularly the fluidity between lordship <--> rest is quite interesting to think of.
lobbes: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-26#1004076 << important to note why this is, too: not everyone is fit to wear the crown. Goes back to diana_coman's point earlier about titles following action, not the other way around. Sure, many splintered off and "declared themselves King" because "pissed" or whatever, but they had neither the influence nor resources (be they capital, intellectual,
ericbot: Logged on 2019-09-26 18:24:04 asciilifeform: shrysr: historically we had several folx who went away with 'i'ma make my own tmsr! with hookers and blackjack!' but 0 interesting came of these.
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-26#1004015 - there's no requirement (at least not as yet) to have/maintain a castle, no; think of it: I'm Marquess Eulora, not #o, for that matter
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 13:02:26 shrysr: I guess the query also extends to what does an empty castle or chan signify in terms of lordship? Is there a lord's pledge too or it that each lord completely free to set the law/behave however in their fief? And is attaining lordship only based on completing chosen goal and lol what about retaining lordship?
lobbes: experience, connection-based resources) to perform the job of a proper King
diana_coman: the 2nd question there doesn't quite make sense to me - what you cite is something specifically-crafted for a particular profile.
shrysr: diana_coman: re 2nd Q : ok, ya i thought it was general, but gathered from above thread that its not like that.
diana_coman: shrysr: fwiw, being uncomfortable with there being a King is one of those cases where it's your problem, not the reality's fault; it links in to today's mandatory reading
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 05:45:53 diana_coman: shrysr thimbronion whaack whaack_travel crucial and therefore mandatory reading: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log-raw/trilema?istart=1938185&iend=1938213
shrysr: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-11#1002085 << i get the point. but fwiw (though i prolly dont know enough) - i dun think i can be averse to trying to become you...or atleast part of you or asciilifeform in the process. i think its not just the logs that have to be eaten..lol the master(s) also to be eaten. absolute vulnerability also involves absorption?
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-11 17:21:31 diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-11#1002075 - ?? the whole point is to become the best he can be, not to become fucking me or bingo or someone else, ffs.
diana_coman: shrysr: lol, that is more likely to depend on your own representation of it (ie if you see it in terms of eating or whatever); yes, learning from someone means inevitably copying their style to start with (not just superficially, no)
diana_coman: so in this sense, certainly; and it's true that the more attuned the relationship, the deeper the "copy" but it's always super-imposed and ultimately mixed until at some point - I'd hope - you make out of everything you got + "copied" on the way, your own style
diana_coman: ofc, that doesn't mean that one wouldn't be able to even trace perhaps what you learnt from where; there's no problem with that.
diana_coman: shrysr: absolute vulnerability involves openness - to change (aka learning) through all available means so yes, absorbing too, why not.
diana_coman: speaking of castles, this #ossasepia castle here is now licensed as can be seen at any time in the [deedbot.org/deed-596500-2.txt][license deed].
diana_coman: speaking of castles, this #ossasepia castle here is now licensed as can be seen at any time in the license deed.
diana_coman: now that I finally got the order of [][] right, I still have to remember the http apparently.
lobbes: congrats on the castlehood!
diana_coman: thanks!
shrysr: diana_coman: congrats on the castlehood! I cd understand less than half though and only bits and pieces.
shrysr: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-26#1004088 << :D do you get an additional title now ?
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 16:32:13 diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-26#1004015 - there's no requirement (at least not as yet) to have/maintain a castle, no; think of it: I'm Marquess Eulora, not #o, for that matter