amberglint: asciilifeform: hi, are you still reading this channel? I didn't see any response to my latest message on loggers
asciilifeform: wb amberglint
asciilifeform: yes still reading
asciilifeform: it's a hot spare for the pestnet
amberglint: asciilifeform: apparently someone imaged an Ivory and promises to post pics soon: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36642581
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2023-07-08#1115091 << wasn't me (maybe phf?)
dulapbot: Logged on 2023-07-08 11:28:04 amberglint: asciilifeform: were you the one who gave him an Ivory? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36642581
asciilifeform: i haven't very many to spare , and quite reluctant to give to 'maaaaybe i'll decap without smashing it and maybe sometime will post pics that may nor may not be suitable for reversing' folx
amberglint: I thought so, but there aren't many people with stashes of them :)
amberglint: there were a couple of related auctions recently, with obscene prices
amberglint: one for a MacIvory, another for an XL1201
amberglint: the XL1201 had a faulty console and was missing a mouse
asciilifeform: i have 1 working one in a machine, a pre-release chip, and anuther 2 of the type in the machine
asciilifeform: amberglint: saw the auctions. australia d00d
amberglint: yeah, him
amberglint: I offered the best price I could for a MacIvory but was turned down
asciilifeform: err, 3 spares of the type in the box
asciilifeform tried as recently as last yr to work out a deal with a microscopy shop but fell through
amberglint: did you do any work on a testbench with the secret docs provided by phf?
asciilifeform: amberglint: sadly nope, not had time
asciilifeform: as i understand, it may very well take at least 3-4 (if not moar) dies to get a proper image of all layers
amberglint: is it possible to at least extract the microcode ROM from the first die?
asciilifeform found out that one can rent time on electron microscope at the uni he lives next to, but they haven't a decapping facility
asciilifeform: amberglint: the rom mask is public (in fact is in the genera cd iirc)
amberglint: oh
asciilifeform: ( see also )
dulapbot: (pest) 2022-11-02 asciilifeform: phf: re microcode btw: there's a 'si:read-rom-word' in genera/distribution/sys/sys/wired.lisp . seems to eat argument n and walk out nth word of the rom. ( not tried it on mine yet )
asciilifeform: ^ can read out the 1 from yer particular unit if you've a working box
asciilifeform not knows whether same on all released versions
amberglint: I presume there is zero leaked information on the format of this ROM
asciilifeform: the microcode isn't worth much w/out reversing the die tho
amberglint: I can't remember, do you already have a copy of the paper "The Symbolics Ivory Design and Verification Strategy"?
asciilifeform: not sure
asciilifeform suspects that to this day, no 1 person has 1) sufficient bolix dies + 2) the moneys + 3) the time/inclination for proper reversing. not knows how to fix this tho. aint about to send priceless irons to some rando without any obligations
amberglint: asciilifeform: in case if you don't have it, someone scanned it recently: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gjyrkomdrxx7rx9py3n6f/ivory-design-verification.zip?rlkey=km0i1o7vysxzbzfr4lfeb6e9a&dl=0
asciilifeform: oh hm loox familiar
asciilifeform replied to forum thrd fwiw
amberglint: have you seen this talk? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uljtqyBLxI seems to be the last attempt to put hardware GC in commercial hw, so far
amberglint: I was recently surprised to discover that the Genera 8.3 ISO has some source code that's not in the more widely-distributed leak
amberglint: Symbolics C, Pascal, Fortran iirc
amberglint: some graphics card drivers
amberglint: unfortunately not for the latest(?) one, the Framethrower - this one only has binaries in both distributions
asciilifeform: hmm pretty sure i had 8.3 but not noticed these
asciilifeform: not seen the gc talk (will watch at some pt)
amberglint: "<palter> There was a release, Genera 8.3 I think, where we "accidentally" released all the sources to our customers because we were afraid we were going to go out of business and it would've been lost."
amberglint_: oops, something happened to my link, sorry
amberglint_: resending: I tried to diff after reading this message from Gary Palter
asciilifeform: amberglint_: here's the 8.3 isos if you dun have'em
amberglint_: asciilifeform: yes, this is the exact iso I checked
asciilifeform has the Official physical disks, but not checked whether these differ from above
asciilifeform: amberglint_: did the ns src turn up in there too ?
asciilifeform not looked
amberglint_: sadly no
amberglint_: no NS source, this was my first thing to check
amberglint_: there wasn't any trace of NS on that iso at all
asciilifeform: evidently not 'all the sources' then, yea
amberglint_: asciilifeform: it's nice to chat with you, I have to go now, bye!
asciilifeform: thx amberglint_