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mats: happy january 6
whaack: morning
whaack: !e height
trbexplorer: whaack: my valid commands are: src, uptime, version, help, view-address, view-balance, view-raw-block, view-block, view-height, view-merkle-root, view-txn, view-utxos, view-raw-txn, verify-block, push
whaack: !e view-height
trbexplorer: block_height: 717447
asciilifeform: good morning whaack , mats , et al
asciilifeform: $ticker btc usd
busybot: Current BTC price in USD: $42711.34
asciilifeform: cheapcoinz!111
asciilifeform: !w poll
watchglass: Polling 14 nodes...
watchglass: 205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.089s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=717449
watchglass: 205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.093s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=717449 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.097s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=717449
watchglass: 54.39.156.171:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.116s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=717449
watchglass: 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.143s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=717449
watchglass: 205.134.172.28:8333 : Alive: (0.144s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=717449 (Operator: whaack)
watchglass: 71.191.220.241:8333 : (pool-71-191-220-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.167s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=717449 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.021s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=717449
watchglass: 143.202.160.10:8333 : Alive: (0.305s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=717449
watchglass: 54.38.94.63:8333 : (ns3140226.ip-54-38-94.eu) Alive: (0.254s) V=88888 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.8.88.88/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=717449
watchglass: 94.176.238.102:8333 : (2ppf.s.time4vps.cloud) Alive: (0.362s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=716830
watchglass: 82.79.58.192:8333 : (static-82-79-58-192.rdsnet.ro) Alive: (0.371s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=717012
watchglass: 103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.642s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=717449
watchglass: 75.106.222.93:8333 : Alive: (0.447s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=717449
asciilifeform: billymg: very nifty! i'ma backport this to my logotron when i get a chance
asciilifeform: (tho to date not choked in this particular way -- wouldn't hurt to have the belt'n'suspenders)
verisimilitude: Doesn't asciilifeform have a Lisp Machine?
verisimilitude: Why not build the program in Genera?
verisimilitude: Alternatively, I see no reason why this program couldn't use the emulated terminal, which at least works decently. Mine ACUTE-TERMINAL-CONTROL has the necessary functionality in its READ-EVENT function.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i've only 1 such machine, and for all i know at any given time it's on its final hour
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: purchased it for reversing, not daily use
verisimilitude: That's horrible. Sell it to me.
billymg: asciilifeform: awesome, yeah, i figured it might be useful to others as well, just as a failsafe. i'll keep an eye on it to make sure it doesn't fail in any strange ways and then publish as an actual signed vpatch
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: not intending to sell until i've a 100% clone
verisimilitude: I've considered running the Genera emulator.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: lemme know if you need a copy (iirc is relatively easy to find on www atm tho)
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: if you want actual machine, write to dks, he might have 1 or 2 left
verisimilitude: The issue is I've been too lazy to try. Then again, I really should find the time at some point.
verisimilitude: He didn't answer my last email, but I could try again.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: expect to pay 6-7k$
verisimilitude: Hell, I no longer recall if I actually sent an email, actually.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: doesn't hurt to check ebay periodically also (mine was from dks via ebay)
verisimilitude: Of course, the GNU/Linux underneath would still suck.
verisimilitude: On an emulator, that's.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: not only, but emulator per se is a bit halfbaked, crashes with regularity
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-06 19:50:35 verisimilitude: Alternatively, I see no reason why this program couldn't use the emulated terminal, which at least works decently. Mine ACUTE-TERMINAL-CONTROL has the necessary functionality in its READ-EVENT function.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: elaborate (which emulated terminal?)
asciilifeform considered ansi-style terminal, but could not swallow the handicaps (can't handle single-leftclick for links; can't copypaste from it w/out sucking in hardlinebreaks)
verisimilitude: I refer to an ECMA-48 compatible terminal, such as xterm.
asciilifeform: see above then
verisimilitude: The first complaint isn't true.
verisimilitude: A single left mouse click can be detected.
verisimilitude: The text can be trivially made into a hyperlink, by simply redrawing the name with underlining enabled.
asciilifeform: possibly (not tried, simply observing that not seen a proggy which does to date)
verisimilitude: The CHIP-8 MMC has some mouse functionality.
asciilifeform: right, the colourization would work (as in e.g. 'midnight commander')
asciilifeform: dunno how you'd cure the cut'n'paste thing tho
asciilifeform: w/out it the proggy's ~useless
verisimilitude: That can be found here.
asciilifeform: mouse select + 'copy' must work exactly as in e.g. www browsers
verisimilitude: There's a protocol for this that could be implemented.
verisimilitude: I don't recall if it be with name.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: if you recall, plox to post
asciilifeform: cuz to date i've not seen a term proggy from which can select e.g. page of text and then paste w/out linebreak pollution
asciilifeform: middleclick select oughta work, as in www browser, and not merely kbd-triggered cut/copy
verisimilitude: I've spent far too much time learning about this garbage.
asciilifeform: afaik if yer mouse-selecting in a terminal, the default behaviour (which shits linebreaks into the payload) always triggers
asciilifeform: but if there's a pill against this which reqs 0 user behaviour modification, asciilifeform would like to hear about it
verisimilitude: As the UNIX-HATERS Handbook claims, the issues with terminals are fixed by replacing them with the much costlier issues of X11.
verisimilitude: I've found it.
asciilifeform: half-troo -- they aint actually fixed, xterm preserves most of the old headaches
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: not clear that this solves copy-from-term, or for that matter pasting from somewhere other than the proggy itself (e.g. from www browser or emacs)
verisimilitude: Run the emulated terminal in Emacs, and configure it to avoid that side of the issue.
verisimilitude: This seems like a complete solution.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: what part of ' asciilifeform doesn't want an emacs dependency in this ' is hard to understand ?
verisimilitude: Emacs would only be used to solve the copying issue.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-04 08:53:53 asciilifeform: to date this was the reaction of erryone asciilifeform described the thing to , in meatspace. 'what do you mean, you want a machine screw? have this here wood screw'
verisimilitude: Perhaps hacking the terminal itself would be a solution.
verisimilitude: The terminal could be configured to avoid this newline issue.
asciilifeform: so lol, now i also need a patched xterm just to use w/ 1 proggy ??
verisimilitude: I was thinking a patched st.
verisimilitude: It's from the suckless idiots, but it's usable.
asciilifeform: what part of 'standalone proggy' hard to understand, lol
verisimilitude: At that point, just combine st with the program.
verisimilitude: Anyway, I'm only trying to help.
asciilifeform: yea but this 'have a wood screw' aint particularly useful for actually solving the stated problem
asciilifeform: ty tho.
verisimilitude: I wasn't trying to waste our time, but I suppose I've.
asciilifeform: what asciilifeform wants is full-fledged x11 proggy, where interface not distinguishable in any way, other than the 1 described, from adult text editor. e.g. has scroll bars, supports mouse wheel, mouse selection, unmutilated cut'n'paste, arbitrary (incl. var width) fonts, and 0 gigantic wads of legacy shitcoad.
asciilifeform: (other than xorg per se, i suppose. but speaking of what gets ~linked~ into the proggy)
verisimilitude: I think I'd sooner kill myself than experience that slow and painful death.
verisimilitude: Yes, what an issue writing that would be.
asciilifeform: dun necessarily have to be slow&painful (to run), after all not includes emacs..
asciilifeform: to write -- well asciilifeform not found an approach to writing it to date, and looked since '07
asciilifeform: this is prolly the closest thing anyone will find to a workable pill, and it's still imho loathesome
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-05 18:41:21 asciilifeform: when used w/ 1 of these, emacs simply listens on a socket and puts the letters where it is told to, sends keystrokes back to $process, etc
verisimilitude: Something I failed to include in this article was the ``Any colour, any shade, so long as it be this one.'' problem.
verisimilitude: So, I'm going to include this in a later article, but I think a better society would've by now punished these idiots for harming computing so badly, such as, say, by burying them to their necks in an ant mound.
verisimilitude: It's ridiculous to live in a society with such a useless priest class.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: errything in the linked piece is imho 100% tru, but does fail to mention that often enuff (e.g. in the case of the proggy we were discussing earlier) the option to actually 100% escape from the cumulative pile of idiocy simply aint there
asciilifeform: i.e. you need a new arch, new os, new compiler, new graphics stack, new fucking planet
verisimilitude: It's there, only when a subset be possible.
verisimilitude: Graphics aren't included in this subset, of course.
asciilifeform: often enuff, all 'subset' gets you is an arse-nail chair.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-04 14:19:11 asciilifeform: is sorta rather like how i'd rather sit on a wooden crate than a plush chair with a nail permanently affixed to the arse pad
verisimilitude: I can use Common Lisp well enough, as an example, but Common Lisp can't do many things I'd like for it to be able to do.
verisimilitude: Perhaps APL is a better example.
verisimilitude: I can use APL for anything, except real work.
asciilifeform: why's that? (no ffi??)
verisimilitude: Well, I've never learned how to bring data into GNU APL, for one.
verisimilitude: It's also not very fast.
verisimilitude: Still, for exploring computation, it's pleasant.
asciilifeform: that's the thing with not being able to frictionlessly interface w/ other proggies. ends up with 'can't use for real work'(tm)
asciilifeform: enuff friction, and it may as well be on an ancient bolix box 1 blown capacitor away from valhalla
asciilifeform: sometimes curable w/ heroic work; for instance asciilifeform will be able to bake an ada pestron once he (or someone else) comes up w/ tcp and sqlite glue for same
asciilifeform: (the existing ones aint anywhere close to usable)
asciilifeform: ( what'd this look like? see e.g. asciilifeform's udp and mmap glues. )
verisimilitude: I'll eventually and slowly finish the libraries for my Pest in Ada. Neither TCP nor SQLite are necessary, from what I see.
asciilifeform: both are quite tricky to implement w/out heap allocation, will note
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: how do you propose to bake irc frontend w/out tcp ?
verisimilitude: I don't intend to is how.
verisimilitude: Mine will write messages to a file, and that's it.
asciilifeform: lemme guess, you want to bake own ansi terminal frontend?
asciilifeform doesn't care how other folx bake pestron for own use, but not eager to personally make use of 1 built in style of 'edlin'
verisimilitude: The interface will be horrible, but the program simple.
asciilifeform finds even 'weechat' gnarly, for reason of impossibility of pasting from it anywhere w/out linebreaks pissed into output
asciilifeform: it mangles incoming pastes, similarly
verisimilitude: I expect to have a Common Lisp program to translate the messages to HTML, as a public log, and I could access this through Emacs, with another buffer for writing messages.
asciilifeform: say you want to paste to/from a direct msg session tho
verisimilitude: I've already envisioned examining the conversation as a data structure in Common Lisp, by INSPECT.
verisimilitude: Yes, that will be quite inconvenient, in comparison.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: if you 'live in emacs' seems simpler to bake an elisp thing for the frontend
verisimilitude: I'd need a special interface for that.
verisimilitude: I've also considered that.
verisimilitude: Still, Common Lisp is better.
asciilifeform: iirc several folx here irc through an emacsism
verisimilitude: I'm also using ERC.
verisimilitude: I just have a nohup emacs.
asciilifeform: see, that's what the irc frontend in pest gets you, can use existing irc clients incl. erc
verisimilitude: I don't like IRC.
verisimilitude: I use IRC, but I don't like it.
verisimilitude: Similarly, I shit, but I don't like it.
asciilifeform: is entirely tru that you can't e.g. thread in it (while pest protocol in fact supports threading)
asciilifeform: so until there's a dedicated client, there'll be no threading
asciilifeform: otoh picture if asciilifeform had not specified use of irc as wartime frontend. doubt we'd have thimbronion's draft, or any other, it'd be in same state as asciilifeform's hypertext thing
asciilifeform: 'have you considered patched xterm' etc
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i'm sitting in front of an entire box fulla 'i use , but dun like' fwiw
asciilifeform: describes literally entire contents of hdd.
asciilifeform: (customer:'this soup was terrible, i want refund' waiter:'but you ate entire bown' customer:'with spitting! i ate with spitting!')
verisimilitude: Part of why I don't write much, is I want perfection or nothing, and something that can't be ideal may not be worth trying.
asciilifeform: fairnuff
verisimilitude: I suppose I be spewing hot air.
asciilifeform: well on e.g. asciilifeform's www there is a tag 'hot air' but also a 'cold air'.
asciilifeform: e.g. pest spec is 'cold air'.
verisimilitude: This can change. I don't look back on my terminal libraries very fondly, but they were nice for their time.
verisimilitude: I got terminal control in pure Common Lisp, at the least.
asciilifeform: often enuff can only choose b/w 'hot air' and 'nice for its time'. if you dun have the resources to rebake the machine.
signpost: life's meaningless, therefore use your time however you like.
verisimilitude: Right now, my favorite library is my doubly-linked list library.
signpost: I don't have verisimilitude's kinks, but I don't begrudge them
asciilifeform: wb signpost
verisimilitude: I want a program I can smile at, or nothing.
signpost: howdy asciilifeform
signpost: anyway doesn't seem such a waste to grunt out a bespoke UI for pest, since others with IRC frontend are already in motion
asciilifeform: indeed imho not at all a waste
signpost: the capacity for threading's super interesting; I look forward to pest-usenet
asciilifeform: esp. if it's usable, or at least easily glued to sumthing usable hypothetically
signpost: would probably stop using the loathsome wordpress blog for that
asciilifeform: signpost: various heathen chatrons support threading; asciilifeform noticed early on that we get it 'for phree' simply by having the netchain thing
asciilifeform: (afaik all irc clients sadly insist on displaying msg sequentially, tho)
signpost: yep, seems like it will be useful.
signpost meanwhile dusted off the v-linux project for a break from the fountain code item.
signpost: latter works in python but take more check-blocks than the paper states, can't see the error in my math yet.
signpost: approx 2-3% moar than should, I think
signpost will get the thing posted for critique before long.
signpost: grunted the CL one forward a bit too. displaced arrays are mighty nice for slicing up an underlying buffer.
signpost: verisimilitude: "because I want it, fuck you" is perhaps every man's motivation, or not a man.
asciilifeform: signpost: indeed imho is common motivation of all folx 'worth the paper they're printed on'. the rest 'buy from corner store' and bake nuffin of interest
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-06#1071433 << generating the oddball statistical distribution called for in the orig. paper is a bit tricky
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-06 20:57:28 signpost: latter works in python but take more check-blocks than the paper states, can't see the error in my math yet.
asciilifeform: (and ftr asciilifeform not had chance to verify that it behaves as stated there)
asciilifeform speaking of luby's but iirc the moar recent encodings require similar mechanism
asciilifeform must bbl
verisimilitude: I agree it's in the nature of a true man to create what he wants, signpost.
signpost: even wanting impossible things is fine; some of them end up possible later.
verisimilitude: I want many impossible things.
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