signpost: morning folks, find an ircd-ratbox config here http://trinque.org/2021/06/19/our-nascent-network
signpost: no guarantees that it's correct, just a place to start
signpost: I noticed that ratbox-services has a challenge/response mechanism for auth, curious if it can be adapted for our needs.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039826 << 100% agree, this has always been about my own freedom, regardless of the way that word has been trashed in the english language.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 14:18:44 asciilifeform: not interested in construction of reichs; rather, the opposite.
signpost: there is no life of the mind under totalitarianism, neither if wearing a pantsuit nor crown.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039829 << there were various knobs for managing this in the usual ways which I declined to configure in ratbox, would rather solve properly once with e.g. challenge/response mentioned above
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 14:20:01 asciilifeform: thimbronion: i expect at the very least some token spambot efforts.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039836 << zero interest in a commercial IRC network. this thing's a scaffold; the real item's yet ahead, and fully decentralized.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 14:21:57 PeterL: not that you need to sell the network for use, does not generate money
signpost: consider that every user running his own relay is a shitty p2p net if you squint.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 14:22:20 asciilifeform: PeterL: my other notion is that erryone who wants to be taken seriously oughta run a relay & peer w/ others.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039848 << as you moderate your own living room, I'd expect. however you want, or not at all.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 14:26:29 verisimilitude: So if I were to run a node here, I'd be expected to moderate it?
signpost: I haven't looked into it yet, but I expect it'd be possible to relay only certain channels, such that a particular node can have w/e other channels, e.g. signpost's unauth'd guest lobby
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039876 << 32 totally reasonable, trivial to set this in ./configure step for ratbox
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 14:43:02 asciilifeform: 9 is ludicrous; in my current config iirc is 32
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039888 << specifically, it's a ponzi, like most modern tech businesses.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 14:48:36 verisimilitude: Software is increasingly being written by idiots who don't even aim for proper functioning; it's just a game to them.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039948 << >> http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-19#1040076
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 17:56:39 billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-17#1039741 << i agree that channels seem kind of silly with only a dozen or so users, however i'm not sure how i feel about "no 'channels', just nets"
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-19 11:42:42 signpost: I haven't looked into it yet, but I expect it'd be possible to relay only certain channels, such that a particular node can have w/e other channels, e.g. signpost's unauth'd guest lobby
signpost: minimal standard is best standard when coordinating among friendly peers; no need to tell billymg what to do in his house if the parties don't spill into my wine cellar uninvited
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039960 << the flatness here supposes equals among freely-associating peers, not all-comers.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 18:35:44 asciilifeform: i.e. absolutely flat topology, yet w/out any 'democracy' or any '-cracy' at all.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039985 << this. if you're down and out, "have friends". I'd welcome folks in my WoT using my relay when they need to (ex: traveling and their own relay becomes inaccessible)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 18:45:54 asciilifeform: the idea, billymg , is to have the subordinate type of connection be an exception, rather than the rule
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039938 << obviously I meant the present, not the archaeological ecosystem.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-18 16:47:29 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: 'must' is bogus there, there were similar guis in '90s at 100x smaller mass.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039939 << my own term for these older, efficient, snappy, raster-based GUIs is "classical WIMP."
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1040024 << agreed, death to this notion that there's a "the work". god is dead, and we have killed him.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 19:08:58 asciilifeform: but 'the net' in my scheme no longer is a collectivist entity that has 'desires', if this makes sense.
gregorynyssa: I even have a theory that classical WIMP as deliberately killed by The Powers That Be as part of a larger mind-control agenda.
gregorynyssa: its death was not an accident. asciilifeform's blog-post about Hypercard's death supports this thesis, but the conspiracy runs beyond one corporation's financial interests.
gregorynyssa: the failure of Linux to sustain (or even support, in the first place) classical WIMP following its death on Windows is strong evidence that
gregorynyssa: Linux Foundation and GNU were involved in this mind-control agenda.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1040036 << sure, it'd be foolish to summarily reject what was said/done in that era.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 19:13:56 billymg: asciilifeform: right right. i'm just musing on how it seems much closer to what was talked about before as the desired model -- castles (chans, then) among a republic --and how it's coming about now
gregorynyssa: I believe that GCC killed static linking in the belief that such a move would increase the influence of anti-classical WIMP toolkits such as GTK and Qt.
signpost: time to grab oneself by the balls and start again.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1040037 << highest priority project should be ownership of one's time.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 19:17:47 Aerthean: Yeah, I've been following along. I keep wishing to have more useful time to contribute, difficult to do more when brain gets tired from work.
gregorynyssa: this is because the exclusion of static linking leads to (or, further strengthens) the framework-centric approach to software-development.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1040051 << imho this means bvt's other WoT connections, if any, had no meaning.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 19:34:34 asciilifeform: observe how quickly e.g. bvt lost interest in e.g. ffa when mp took off his mask
signpost: heh, hopefully gregorynyssa checks the logs soon and joins us.
signpost bbl
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: I understand that you are a fan of non-WIMP approaches in the vein of Jeff Raskin, but WIMP itself was never fully mastered, owing to the conspiracy. I would rather master WIMP first, before moving onto non-WIMP.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-19#1040108 << I just read the logs, and will proceed to study trinque's new article.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-19 12:12:34 signpost: heh, hopefully gregorynyssa checks the logs soon and joins us.
asciilifeform: signpost: a++; finally built 'ratbox' here; will config it and pgpgram prolly tonight/tomorrow
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-19#1040099 << ftr didn't mean 'musing' in the sense of "funny you should mention this thing that was already discussed before" but rather "funny how it took so long"
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-19 12:05:26 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1040036 << sure, it'd be foolish to summarily reject what was said/done in that era.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 18:40:09 asciilifeform: p2p net. which, despite various posturing, mp wanted like a dog wants beets.
asciilifeform: signpost: i'ma swap it into place instead of the 'unreal' that is currently running, as soon as i smoke test it on another port and see that it'll readmit folx immed. after switching on
asciilifeform: signpost: while on subj, if we're doing single channel, imho would be rather bizarre to continue w/ '#asciilifeform'. let's e.g. #a ('arse'!net) or #pipe or sumthing short for nao (i've looked into 'does protocol even require a channel' but all sorts of clients would behave weirdly w/out one)
asciilifeform: ^ other relay participants invited to comment ^
asciilifeform: billymg: makes sense
billymg: asciilifeform: i'm forever interested in coming up with something that somehow satisfies both of these: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1040055 <> http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-19#1040103
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 19:37:46 asciilifeform: i personally would rather -- in my non-commercial hours -- work strictly with the internally motivated.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-19 12:08:31 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1040037 << highest priority project should be ownership of one's time.
asciilifeform: billymg: elaborate ?
billymg: asciilifeform: something that you work on out of "internal motivation" but that also pays the bills / allows you to "own your own time"
billymg: the "in my non-commercial hours" seems like a bug
asciilifeform: billymg: 'if wishes were horses, beggars would ride' etc. never had such a thing and dun expect to
asciilifeform: ( if yer doing sumthing where 100% internally motivated -- why would anybody bother to pay you ? )
billymg: asciilifeform: how much you like what you do doesn't factor into it with potential customers though, does it?
billymg: if i suspect you thoroughly enjoy assembling FGs that doesn't mean i still wouldn't want to pay what it's worth to me
asciilifeform: ftr the process of assembling & testing (coupla hrs ea.!) FGs was quite unenjoyable.
billymg: asciilifeform: yeah i guess that's the issue, once the problem is solved the "repeating/maintaining it for customers" part isn't any fun
asciilifeform: billymg: it aint that 'liking what you do' has 0 effect -- but as i understand, it is similar as with whores, very few of whom 'like' in the usual sense, but the troo 'pros' conceal, very effectively, their dislike, like talented actors might
asciilifeform: i suspect that very few dentists enjoy, in the usual sense of the word, drilling teeth.
asciilifeform: they approach it much the same way as asciilifeform approaches commercial work.
asciilifeform: get it over with for patient and for self as quickly and painlessly as possible (but not more so)
billymg: asciilifeform: the whore analogy is accurate. saw posted somewhere how working in silicon valley is basically whoring because not just expected to get work done but expected to show enthusiasm/excitement at Nth rewrite of dickpic app
asciilifeform: billymg: i have never done time in such a shithole and cannot directly comment
billymg: asciilifeform: it resonated with me, managers openly graded individuals on "passion"
billymg: asciilifeform: but what does a dentist do then on the weekend?
asciilifeform: billymg: sounds like (american caricature of) sovok
billymg: probably not more drilling
asciilifeform: billymg: well, mine worx on his harley, for instance.
asciilifeform: funnily enuff he once revealed that the uv-cured epoxy in both of his shops is just about the same
billymg: asciilifeform: heh, interesting
asciilifeform: so sometimes, in fact, more drilling.
asciilifeform: billymg: possibly 1 reason why i've no direct exposure to the 'must show enthusiasm' nonsense is that since '16 i've not accepted any work that'd require me to leave my house
billymg: asciilifeform: i can see it but it seems like a bit of a stretch to compare drilling:harley fixing :: programming for client:programming for self
billymg: asciilifeform: this is the only kind i'm doing these days and it's definitely an improvement
asciilifeform: billymg: for 1 thing, you can stack'em up..
billymg: asciilifeform: isn't the "stack" thing only +ev if "salaried" position? if working by the hour then doesn't matter if 10x3 or 30x1
asciilifeform: billymg: depends, yes.
asciilifeform: errything depends on the concretes.
asciilifeform does not and has never done 'sexy, exciting' commercial worx; for many yrs nao maintains old proprietary softwares. (to say more would be 'kiss & tell'.)
billymg: asciilifeform: this is what i would love to find
asciilifeform: the people who do not 'pay' with 'exciting', pay with moneys.
billymg: but i suspect it's not something you "find" but that you cultivate over decade
asciilifeform: and, another valuable thing, ask very few q's off subj. (the clients, is known to me, read my www, and in some cases even the logs, but generally passively)
asciilifeform: billymg: most recent one actually found me.
asciilifeform: pointedly, asciilifeform does not work commercially on anyffin pertaining to bitcoinism, or in fact any 'trendy' or public-facing system fullstop.
billymg: asciilifeform: ah, this also makes sense
asciilifeform: there is nothing factually exciting in commercial softs happening today. but plenty of 'exciting'-flavoured crapola for drawing in disposable 19yos to work for, effectively, minwage.
asciilifeform: skip the 'exciting', insist instead on payment on barrelhead.
asciilifeform: billymg: waitasec i thought for some reason that you were a graphics artist, not programmer..?
billymg: asciilifeform: interface designer by trade, which often included implementing the interfaces, which led to more and more JS as React became "the standard", which eventually led to "full stack" programming
asciilifeform: aa.
asciilifeform: one one hand sounds particularly unpleasant, but presumably at least plentiful work.
billymg: plentiful but always of the "let's get excited" variety
asciilifeform: ah hm.
asciilifeform: what asciilifeform does is sorta on polar opposite end of the spectrum.
billymg: i have a small client now that is happy that i just do what's needed and do it well
asciilifeform: the other 'insight' , while we're on this thrd, is that no one is ever about to pay a worker enuff so that he could stop.
asciilifeform: (this, when stated bluntly, seems elementarily obvious, but some folx still seem to not grasp)
billymg: asciilifeform: that is actually what made my shift from the frontend to the backend more active. seeing that the frontend will always be public facing
billymg: it was also after discovering bitcoin and the logs
billymg: and realizing that any degree of self-sufficiency in the future will require ability to code and configure servers
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo for instance went from (iirc) philosophy degree, to configging machines and all kindsa handy skill.
billymg: i should expand, i'm not even fundamentally against "public facing" roles, and in fact did quite well in them, what i am allergic to is the trannyism that infected all of it in the last 5 or so years
billymg: once i found myself self-policing my language in meetings i knew there was no future in it for me
asciilifeform: billymg: there's a kind of phase transition sometimes called 'snake loses his legs'. where a vestigial/newly-superfluous organ atrophies.
asciilifeform: billymg: in this case, it was the actual software-development, in 'tbtf' shitholes.
asciilifeform: actually permitting the 20sumthings to touch the coad (not even to say, satan forbit, to ~develop new~) is generally -ev.
asciilifeform: so instead they give'em various social games to play.
asciilifeform: *forbid
billymg: asciilifeform: how is the actual software development "newly superfluous"?
asciilifeform: billymg: complexity collapse.
billymg: asciilifeform: i.e. the "back to no indoor plumbing" path we're on?
asciilifeform: aha.
asciilifeform: the absolutely last thing anyone actually needs, is ~more~ software-fecal mass.
asciilifeform: the disposable 19yo, otoh, has automatic animal urge to do one and only 1 thing, add, add, add mass.
asciilifeform: because how else to become something other than disposable, than by 'job seekoority'.
asciilifeform: soo, giving'em something to do, in a competitive format, that doesn't contribute directly to accretion of mass, is -- for the tbtf -- adaptive.
asciilifeform not implying that anyone has ~consciously~ adopted this algo. merely that it is adaptive; and appears not to contradict observed givens.
asciilifeform: for the 'gendercommitt' people -- also adaptive; learning to actually program is rather much like work; homo redditus will happily take the pay w/out bothering with the study of the (largely obsolete, see above) profession.
billymg: the problem is those "games" they're given to play interfere with those trying to get real work don
billymg: done*
asciilifeform: ... while not necessarily realizing that he is entering yet another, ancient profession..
billymg: although i guess what you're saying is doesn't matter, there is no more "real work" to get done
asciilifeform: aaha.
asciilifeform: not in the shitholes in question, at any rate
asciilifeform: their entire existence is typically in the role of a theatrical prop for stock scamola.
billymg: right
billymg: i guess i had the opportunity to see this transformation play out in real time. when started at the company was about 150 lean, when left, 1500
asciilifeform: ergo, hollywood-style special effects in fact are sufficient in place of whatever 'real thing'
asciilifeform: billymg: i may have said this before, but imho the thing happening to the tbtf-softs co's is a maggotization of an existing corpse, rather than a devourement by predators
asciilifeform: the trans-xyz-etc folx would've been laffed outta the room even 20y ago. the only reason why not now, is that they aint particularly nuttier or more useless than the 'normal' people in the room on typical day now.
asciilifeform: the nominal 'clowns' and 'audience' in the circus -- no longer reliably distinguishable.
asciilifeform: also don't fugher that old-fashioned homosex is conducive to promotion (they promote one another, for obv. reason) , this was a thing in ye olde nsdap w/ ernst rohm, and in hollywood, and etc
asciilifeform: *fughet
asciilifeform: i.e. there is no 'martian invasion'; dying civilization is decomposing along very familiar, historically, lines.
billymg: asciilifeform: ftr my use of "trannyism" was meant as wide brush label for all of the various "social causes" over actually-doing-things people
asciilifeform: upstack -- there's a fissure, a la late-sovok, happening, where softs (and other) industry separates, silently and unofficially, into 'boutique' and 'essential'.
asciilifeform: in 'boutique' -- just about anyffin with a www.
billymg: asciilifeform: if the clowns being tolerated are a symptom of the complexity collapse, (because "real work" is superfluous anyway), what then triggers the complexity collapse
asciilifeform: in 'essential' -- the items standing b/w current state and transition to 'full rhodesia'. e.g. petro, transport, finance (complicated, but ultimately reich's complex, expensive subst. for Gosplan), nukes, etc.
asciilifeform: billymg: accretion.
asciilifeform: ( see e.g. )
billymg: asciilifeform: sad state of affairs
billymg was kinda hoping for an answer to "who is it that should be hung"
asciilifeform: the fulltime golf fuckers of course also consider all of themselves '100% essential', but it aint as if worker bee can requalify to become a ~that~
verisimilitude: This is a depressing conversation.
asciilifeform: wb verisimilitude
verisimilitude: I wonder if things fail soon, or this is just a repeat of the unrest of the 1970s.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: depends which 'things' -- some already by any standard failed.
asciilifeform: moore's law, for instance. (while shitware 'developers' continue to bloat, bloat, bloat... headed head 1st into concrete wall)
verisimilitude: I don't see why Moore's law should persist indefinitely.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: 'civilized' world's entire economic paradigm stood on presumptions of magical infinitely-growing things. incl. ic densities.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: literally all of their economic arrangements are predicated on these infinities, and cannot live w/out'em , like auto engine cannot run under water
verisimilitude: Perhaps it will finally give way to using the transistors in a better design.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: go and try, lol, to fund anything resembling 'better design'.
verisimilitude: I know I can't.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: it's a fundamentally 'terrorist' item, that, if could be funded, only could be by something other than 'system'.
verisimilitude: Anyway, it's very clear to me ``whom to hang'', billymg.
asciilifeform: it's the hook asciilifeform bit, like mindless fish, to work for mp for yrs.
asciilifeform: thought that he was genuinely interested in this.
verisimilitude: It's the hook I rejected.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: smart. better imho in fact to die in a ditch.
verisimilitude: I see myself as a leader more than a follower, although I've also noticed it seems to be more comfortable not quite at the top of a hierarchy.
asciilifeform: in fact, it is fundamentally foolish imho to believe that someone who profits from the continued operation of the reich (i.e. not simply 'rich', but w/out working) could genuinely take an interest in its destruction.
asciilifeform will bbl.
verisimilitude: Part of why most software sucks is they don't learn complexity analysis, and even mock it. However, that pales compared to simply not knowing anything about what they do, piling things on.
asciilifeform: signpost: i gotta say, 'ratbox' docs are garbage. apparently i gotta dissect it to find where it wants the configs; and write init.d scriptola for it by hand??
verisimilitude: Say, asciilifeform, I heard my first Russian pop song or whatever today. The lyrics of the chorus were in English: ``American boy, American joy, American boy for always time''
thestringpuller: hmm
thestringpuller: I guess my client is dropping messages now. Log look different than client. *shrugs*
thestringpuller: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-02-04#1031018 << usually good opportunity to purchase crackhouses and gentrify the area for the millennial yuppies who spend 10 dollars on an avocado at whole foods.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-02-04 13:47:10 asciilifeform: without this drug, many folx suffered 'cold turkey' and went off into sunset. sorta how i picture, life ebbs away in a crackhouse if no moar crack is delivered.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: lemme guess, you didn't bother to read past 3d of log??
asciilifeform: (or would know why)
asciilifeform: (quite evidently didn't read the linked above thrd, either...)
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i have deeply nfi, don't follow the subj
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: i'm a slow reader. i have comic books from 2015 still unread.
verisimilitude: It simply amused me.
thestringpuller: i tried once reading 1-700 of amazing spider-man, got to issue 20 before quitting