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← 2021-04-30 | 2021-05-02 → ↓
xristos: hey lisp oldtimer, pls don't ban me
verisimilitude: Who here is the oldtimer?
shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-01#1034922 << Welcome xristos ... do you have a blog or personal website?
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-01 00:11:42 xristos: hey lisp oldtimer, pls don't ban me
xristos: shinohai: i do but somehow i ended up in the wrong channel, my apologies ;p
asciilifeform: $ticker btc usd
btcinfobot: Current BTC price in USD: $57067.58
asciilifeform: !w poll
watchglass: Polling 15 nodes...
watchglass: 185.85.38.54:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 185.163.46.29:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.022s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=681378
watchglass: 205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.082s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=681378
watchglass: 108.31.170.100:8333 : (pool-108-31-170-100.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.105s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=681378 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.082s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=681266
watchglass: 54.39.156.171:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.175s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=681378
watchglass: 205.134.172.28:8333 : Alive: (0.144s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=681378 (Operator: whaack)
watchglass: 192.151.158.26:8333 : Alive: (0.145s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=681378
watchglass: 143.202.160.10:8333 : Alive: (0.228s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=681378
watchglass: 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.222s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=681378
watchglass: 84.16.46.130:8333 : Violated BTC Protocol: Bad header length!
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-03-02#1032672 << this is just fascinating, and coincides in some respects with my own theories.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-03-02 12:22:32 asciilifeform: ru writer alex rosov takes the thesis further -- he gives (fairly solid) argument that a decision was made (by bluebloods of 'civilized' world) in 1968 to halt technical progress. ( and, consequently, to nail sovok, because otherwise it'll eat'em, not having 'gotten the memo' that r&d must stop )
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-03-02#1032666 << any evidence of this? I was researching a similar subject, so I find this fascinating.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-03-02 12:18:20 asciilifeform: trinque: near as i can tell, the folx who ~factually~ run usa (vs. the muppets who get trotted out for 'elections') are 5+ generation bluebloods
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-03-02#1032676 << if I may say so, I regard white Americans to be their own, newly formed ethnic group, similar to the Boers of South Africa.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-03-02 12:26:05 trinque: at any rate, my contention is that race is one of the mechanisms by which they pit white kulaks against lower tiers.
gregorynyssa: IMO the sooner they can admit this, and stop claiming to represent white people or Western society at large, the better for all parties involved.
gregorynyssa: as "Neo Saxons" they deserve the right, like every other ethnicity, to fight for their survival and collective interests, etc.
gregorynyssa: unlike the Boers, the "Neo Saxons" of America still have the plurality/majority of population, and, in many states, clear majority.
trinque: gregorynyssa: you think this "white american" identity stays whole for a historically relevant amount of time?
trinque: I'm skeptical, as I said in linked thread.
trinque: imho the erosion of that foundational myth is a prime cause of current american instability.
trinque: when I look at california, pacnw, texas, the southeast, new england, the midwest, I see completely distinct places which will fracture when the BRRRRRR holding them together runs out.
verisimilitude: It's lasting despite all of the work so far to destroy it.
verisimilitude: When I look at ``World Star'', affectionately known as ``Worl' Sta, Worl' Sta'', I see a group which no amount of money can make behave.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-01#1034956 << IIRC regional cultures are less fractured than before.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-01 13:38:12 trinque: when I look at california, pacnw, texas, the southeast, new england, the midwest, I see completely distinct places which will fracture when the BRRRRRR holding them together runs out.
gregorynyssa: the southern Midwest eg. Kansas, Missouri, Iowa (I am from Midwest, but northern half) and South used to be enemies
gregorynyssa: today they are both considered "red states." see each other as kin. worship at same churches.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-01#1034953 << that is, on a structural level, the purpose of the Alt Right, even if they are reluctant to admit it.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-01 13:33:23 trinque: gregorynyssa: you think this "white american" identity stays whole for a historically relevant amount of time?
gregorynyssa: do you think Alt Right is dying? I think it is getting stronger.
verisimilitude: Going further, it's natural for races to show animosity towards the others; will the technologies which have been shown able to inhibit this, such as television, stay for a historically relevant amount of time?
trinque: verisimilitude: your /pol/ sense of race is nonsense ftr.
trinque: spouted like someone looking for a reason to be noteworthy, lacking any other.
trinque: gregorynyssa: what evidence is there that it's getting stronger?
trinque: upstack, what's the evidence for a coherent "it"?
verisimilitude: I don't visit 4chan's /pol/. Historically, different peoples don't get along unless they're of similar strengths.
verisimilitude: There are exceptions, sure.
verisimilitude: Anyway, I'd rather discuss programming, so I abstain from the rest of this.
trinque: gregorynyssa: taking the capitol riots as an example, that's evidence, if anything, of the severe decline of the US, not the strength of anything else.
trinque will brb, but this thread has been discussed since the days of the other alt-right thing that wasn't going anywhere, for the same reasons.
trinque: strikes me as the armchair hopes that someone else, somewhere, is doing something, rather than oneself.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-01#1034974 << the Capitol riot wasn't among my list of considerations.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-01 15:29:32 trinque: gregorynyssa: taking the capitol riots as an example, that's evidence, if anything, of the severe decline of the US, not the strength of anything else.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-01 15:23:03 trinque: gregorynyssa: what evidence is there that it's getting stronger?
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-01#1034970 << shared beliefs, such as Alt Right's rejection of "mind body dualism," desire to apply Evolutionary theory to everyday problems, appropriation of Nietzschean thought.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-01 15:25:03 trinque: upstack, what's the evidence for a coherent "it"?
trinque: where!
trinque: boomers dying are being replaced by whining millenials; what nietzschean thought
shinohai: Re: this thread, I personally think nation that is obsessed with race/gender identity et all is sure sign of empire in sharp decline.
trinque: shinohai: "shit, nothing distinguishes us, and there's less to go around"
shinohai: (tm) (r)
trinque: gregorynyssa: I would like to know how you arrive at "alt right rejects mind-body dualism"
trinque: most of them are spouting what christian gargle they can find written on walmart kitsch
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-01 15:56:26 trinque: gregorynyssa: I would like to know how you arrive at "alt right rejects mind-body dualism"
gregorynyssa: So has Vox Day, Richard Spencer, Jordan Peterson.
gregorynyssa: * so have ...
trinque: I do not see anyone with significant power on that liast.
trinque: *list
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-01#1034994 << that is because all senior leadership-positions are held by Baby Boomers.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-01 16:00:33 trinque: I do not see anyone with significant power on that liast.
gregorynyssa: but in another decade, they will be gone.
trinque: this generation that sits politely waiting for its turn is the same one invoking nietzsche?
trinque: I'm reminded of the servile relationship between gen-x and the boomers
trinque: take peterson, almost killed himself with anxiety meds.
trinque: spencer's been doing a fat lot of nothing but larping and promoting his "brand" for decades
gregorynyssa: fair points.
trinque: since we're discussing nietzsche, until man accepts that he's doomed, stop crying, deal with it, etc., he'll hide in the fog of derealization.
gregorynyssa: I think it is worth noting that SJW thought is itself based on a body of assumptions which are not quite Christian, and not quite Atheist.
trinque: all of it is hiding from the encounter with one's own end.
gregorynyssa: SJW thought is closely tied to the milieu in which the Baby Boomers grew up.
trinque: either mother socialism comforts the badthought away, or fetish-of-power larping distracts, same shit.
gregorynyssa: without the Baby Boomers, it is going to fall apart.
trinque: absent moving past the fundamental problem, it'll be same shit, different flavor.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-01#1035009 << are you suggesting, on a literal level, that people become Lefists in order to cope with the fear of death?
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-01 16:06:03 trinque: either mother socialism comforts the badthought away, or fetish-of-power larping distracts, same shit.
trinque: no, they become whatever best distractst them.
trinque: *distracts
trinque: bleh, shitty apple keyboard.
trinque: the alt-right return to "traditional thought" - as they perceive it - is itself cargo-cultism for w/e made grandfather less afraid than grandson
trinque: grandfather's metaphysical world broke in ways grandson is incapable reassembling on the same terms.
gregorynyssa: would you mind going into more detail? how did it break?
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-01#1035017 << IMO there is no single body of "traditional thought" because people in old times also vigorously argued about what was right and wrong.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-01 16:09:02 trinque: the alt-right return to "traditional thought" - as they perceive it - is itself cargo-cultism for w/e made grandfather less afraid than grandson
gregorynyssa: I noticed a distrubing trend that when people say they value "Western traditional thought" without qualification, they basically just mean that they are huge fans of Thomas Carlyle.
trinque: there was certainly at one point traditional western thought, rooted upon the romans and greeks.
trinque: at any rate, I'm referring to the alt-right's memberberries, not the truth or falseness of said memberberries.
trinque: the "it" is the atomic self standing before eternal god ever-approaching final judgment
trinque: that being one of possibly innumerable operating systems a person may run.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-01#1035023 << Carroll Quigley and Oswald Spengler both argued that Western civilization excludes Classical. it started with the Dark Ages, and merely appropriated Classical elements on a superficial level.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-01 16:13:10 trinque: there was certainly at one point traditional western thought, rooted upon the romans and greeks.
trinque: really beside the point, this.
trinque: the genesis of the atomic self is recorded in early greek writing, parminedes? discussed by heidegger in What is Called Thinking
trinque: anyhow briefly, I say that the self contemplated here, eternal, singular, has broken.
trinque: and cannot be put back together, based as it was upon the inevitable approach to final judgment.
trinque: we brought up nietzsche; here he is.
gregorynyssa: so is everyone in modern society broken in this way, or only those who have lost faith in God?
gregorynyssa: trinque: interesting way of phrasing the problem, regardless.
trinque: ever read The Origin of Consciousness by Jaynes?
gregorynyssa: trinque: yep.
trinque: proponent of the bicameral hypothesis of mind. for the purposes of this thread, I'm only interested in making reference to there being evidence of mental operating systems preceding atomic ego-self
trinque: recall he discusses when the Assyrian gods fell silent?
gregorynyssa: of course.
trinque: I would like to meet the person for whom YHWH has not fallen silent.
gregorynyssa: trinque: you think this shift happened in the last 100-200 years?
trinque: over about that length of time, yes
gregorynyssa: I considered there as being two major shifts in values, though not on the "bicameral mind" scale.
trinque: which are those?
gregorynyssa: one in the late 1600s, and one in the 1960s.
trinque: 1600 being protestantism, or something else?
gregorynyssa: late 1600s is the transition from Puritanism to Hobbes/Locke/Enlightenment.
gregorynyssa: it also coincides with the closing of Germany's Age of Lutheran Orthodoxy in favor of Pietism.
gregorynyssa: also coincides with rise of Freemasonry.
trinque: rise of the belief that one's own faculties can apprehend truth is exactly what killed western metaphysics.
trinque: "I had no need of that hypothesis."
gregorynyssa: yep. the curse of Empiricism.
gregorynyssa: now, 1960s - leftward swing of Hippie movement is IMO just tip of iceberg.
trinque: to be clear, what can't stand to reason has to go, whether it's jesus or your identity, doesn't matter.
trinque: anyhow continue
gregorynyssa: Carroll Quigley and Leonard Shlain both support the idea that around 1960s there were fundamental changes in way of thinking.
gregorynyssa: jarring transition of Americans in clothing and way of talking are consequences of this transition, but not the transition itself.
gregorynyssa: Quigley, Shlain both suggest that a sort of "nonverbal communication renaissance" (my term, not theirs) occurred during this time.
trinque: I'd agree, developmental regression society-wide
gregorynyssa: people suddenly became much more sensitive to nonverbal communication. standards for "reading" people increased.
trinque: people began losing the ability to relate to one another.
gregorynyssa: trinque: I would say, people, including very educated people, became less reliant on literary language to express themselves.
trinque: one could discuss cold war psychosis, the effect of drugs, television, or just easy life in the wake of a war won.
trinque: sure, one well-educated can still be decadent.
gregorynyssa: Quigley claims that Yankees (ie. WASPs) had focused on "going wide" with friendships. being friends with society at large rather than with particular people.
gregorynyssa: but during the 1960s, the focus turned to "going deep," ie. cultivating deep and intimate friendships and relatinoships.
trinque: sure, a less charitable rendering is that they got more selfish, less capable of forming larger groups
gregorynyssa: I hadn't thought of that. maybe you are right.
trinque: being more neurotic, the close relationships they form are more codependent, etc
trinque: this trend continues to the atomization of today
verisimilitude: I'll be doing some Ada programming today, the first I've done in months; what of you?
shinohai: verisimilitude: whatcha programming in Ada ?
verisimilitude: I discuss it in the final paragraph here.
verisimilitude: Ada is the most exhausting programming language I know.
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