adlai: Having no connection whatsoever, nor even a local copy of any of the keys relevant to the question of pankakke's suicide signature, I can do nothing other than link to where the other key was published, apparently over half a decade ago.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-01-14 19:22:23 asciilifeform: who can think of a (d) -- plox to write in.
adlai: fwiw, I do not even bother verifying a signature in this case; nothing, literally nothing, prevents the ISP's box, a few metres from this computer, from replacing the plaintext signature and relevant key in-flight, in these circumstances.
adlai: my guess, judging from the parallel keys of both 'pankakke' and 'laurent bachelier', with loudly published signature in either direction between them, is that the individual did not want the identities linked before his death.
adlai would hope that someone planning a tidy exit would, in such a situation, at the very least include one or both directional signatures in the note, although... apparently riseup.net's "best practices" aren't so good, after all.
adlai: here, I strongly disagree. I can spend arbitrarily long drafting an email responding to a bunch of different points, without the risk of a draft earning me responses of anyone other than, perhaps, an overzealous advertisement vendor, if I save the drafts with e.g. Google;
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-16 21:34:36 verisimilitude: I'm of the opinion there should be no difference between IRC, email, etc. The only difference should be in how they're commonly used, but there's no reason not historical to have separate protocols.
adlai: yet the logs are littered with my recent attempts to have anything remotely resembling real-time conversation using a similar point-by-point process.
adlai: I honestly, without any intent to mock, say that verisimilitude has an admirably mechanical style of communication that does seem to work equally well in either medium.
adlai: anyway, my participating in IRC does not seem to further any goals that anyone here may have, other than perhaps the occasional "oh look, adlai is talking again" lulz.
whaack: adlai: What bugs me about your writing/messaging style is that I can't shake off the sense that you write in an obfuscated and long winded manner not to help convey some message, but instead to sound edgy. For example http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/alethepedia/2021-01-15#1002163 - why not just write ~ "Hey thimbronion why not link to the logs in your chan topic?"
snsabot: (alethepedia) 2021-01-15 adlai: wonders whether /topic intentioally includes no links to the http-spidrable log viewer
adlai: well, the question began in my mind as generalized, so I typed it out as quite close to what was in my mind, instead of choosing the default 2nd person singular target.
adlai: the knowledge that I'm communicating both to a collection of individuals, and at least one log publisher, strongly biases me to speak towards the second-person-plural-unto-all-eternity, instead of picking individuals out of the crowd.
adlai: maybe my mind was rotten at an early age by stage training.
whaack: adlai: ah you are some sort of actor?
adlai: definitely was, from 4th through 12th grade; including semesters where theatre rehearsals counted as 'sports' credit for the students.
adlai: a few years later, after a few rounds of "let's see who does good imitations of upper brass", one of my COs told me that I should consider ditching all the science/tech career pursuits, and instead be a professional actor.
adlai: one writer (iirc, Larry Niven) has called writing "a form of insanity", and the same can definitely be said for acting; possibly even a stronger case for acting, if you consider bicameral mind theories.
whaack: One actor told me the difficulty of acting was not getting-into-character but rather getting-out-of-character once the job is done
adlai: ironically enough, the easiest way to avoid that difficulty is narcissism!
adlai: maybe not easy-est, although definitely a way to never lose the pointer back towards yourself, however far you may dissociate into a character.
adlai: wrecks your personality, though; nobody loves a narcissist, other than personality cults, and of course, the narcissist.
adlai: I probably should have phrased the recent two messages without using the 2nd person pronoun in that ambiguous way; sorry for the possibly confusion, whaack .
adlai: two people with whom I've spoken about this in recent years were actually studying acting, and I was surprised at the degree to which they described that their acting schools (one in NYC, and one in Israel) were focused on influencing their habits and personality, rather than the more mundane aspects of... for lack of a better metaphor, "wielding the puppet", although specifically when in-character.
adlai: my own experience was all focused on each specific character, and pretty much no abstract "theory of acting"; I did take one class, a senior elective, in stagecraft, i.e. design and construction of the physical theatre sets, and in retrospect that was a refreshing break.
adlai: several of the productions were musicals, so involved lots of choreography rehearsals. it's quite strange how distanced I've become from what I actually, in retrospect, spent a significant fraction of my life doing.
adlai: arguably this is also why any potential I may have had for growing into a mathematical savant got wasted! I spent too many hours memorizing scripts, instead of practicing problem-solving and theorem-proving.
adlai: anyway, way too much adlai talking about adlai. I hope to have news of external accomplishments when I next babble here, rather than more of this arguably-abusive "IRC psychology" that y'all have, more or less graciously, tolerated for several years already.
adlai: have a good weekend, whaack [and any lurkers reading along!]
trinque: heh, that explains everything.
trinque: ftr I don't even dislike adlai; I used to hang out with theater dorks for quite some time
trinque: and I smacked 'em when they were having a conversation with their head-spirits just as I do here
trinque: upstack, adlai, verisimilitude is saying the protocols oughtn't be distinct, and I agree
trinque: your criticism has to do with the behavior of a particular client, and there's no reason an "IRC" client couldn't also allow you to easily compose a draft
trinque: were you in e.g. erc you'd have easy access to a buffer in which to draft
trinque: heh, this notion that acting might make one many (in the jaynesian et al sense) isn't even bad.
adlai: who knows, maybe it even helps folks who are far less sane than I gain some conscious control over unruly demons.
trinque: we all have 'em
trinque: what's imagining a conversation with someone else but conjuring up another being, just like "I"
trinque: that's not to say constructing an identity isn't useful, and in many ways better than what preceded it historically. I just find it useful to be aware that it's constructed in a space in which anything can be.
trinque: "that's just what a lying modern shitbag *would* say" mutters a demon from below
adlai: btw, thank you for the kind words, trinque ; I have been reading your various 'microaggressions' (if I may!) as a form of uncompromising encouragement, and it's good to know that's the case.
trinque burps in the affirmative
asciilifeform: adlai: interesting re the threatre career. i suspected sumthing of the kind.
adlai probably shouldn't use that word ever again... first, and last, time
asciilifeform: adlai: iirc ben_vulpes was at one time also in the arts.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-01-15#1029081 << interesting -- tho i haven't succeeded in turning up the pubkey ( didja find the pub itself, adlai ? )
snsabot: Logged on 2021-01-15 09:00:37 adlai: Having no connection whatsoever, nor even a local copy of any of the keys relevant to the question of pankakke's suicide signature, I can do nothing other than link to where the other key was published, apparently over half a decade ago.
adlai: now that you mention it: nope, only the signed cleartext enclosing the fingerprints and suggestions to snarf from keyservers.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-01-15#1029100 << the fella who played stierlitz in '17 moments of spring' , supposedly suffered from this.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-01-15 10:00:52 whaack: One actor told me the difficulty of acting was not getting-into-character but rather getting-out-of-character once the job is done
adlai: although again, I stopped seeking out the actual keys once I confirmed that I had no copy of any of either identity's keys previously downloaded locally.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-01-15#1029083 << still imho interesting to distinguish b/w rubbish fake (a la 'craig wright' episode) and well-crafted fake
snsabot: Logged on 2021-01-15 09:01:36 adlai: fwiw, I do not even bother verifying a signature in this case; nothing, literally nothing, prevents the ISP's box, a few metres from this computer, from replacing the plaintext signature and relevant key in-flight, in these circumstances.
adlai: pankakke was an occasional commenter in #b-a when I was just waking up here, although I don't recall ever having any interaction directly with him, and digging too deeply into his case at this point feels to me a little like 'crashing a funeral'.
adlai: to be precise, s/here/there/
asciilifeform: adlai: i'd forgotten he existed for yrs, until he purchased a set of FG, then promptly again forgot
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log-search?q=f:pankkake&chan=all << quite prolific commenter.
asciilifeform: $ticker btc usd
btcinfobot: Current BTC price in USD: $36339.46
asciilifeform: !w poll
watchglass: Polling 15 nodes...
watchglass: 18.104.22.168:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 22.214.171.124:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.022s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=666193
watchglass: 126.96.36.199:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.040s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=666193
watchglass: 188.8.131.52:8333 : (pool-71-114-46-209.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.095s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=666134 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 184.108.40.206:8333 : Alive: (0.082s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=666103
watchglass: 220.127.116.11:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.128s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=666193
watchglass: 18.104.22.168:8333 : Alive: (0.162s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=666193
watchglass: 22.214.171.124:8333 : (static.126.96.36.199.clients.your-server.de) Alive: (0.275s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=391693 (Operator: jurov)
watchglass: 188.8.131.52:8333 : (185-163-46-29.mivocloud.com) Alive: (0.351s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=514562
watchglass: 184.108.40.206:8333 : (182518.pk.3pp.slovanet.sk) Alive: (0.378s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=445846
watchglass: 220.127.116.11:8333 : Alive: (0.450s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=666134
watchglass: 18.104.22.168:8333 : Alive: (0.507s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=666203
asciilifeform: wb PeterL
PeterL: hi there
PeterL: I've been away for a while, recently started reading the log again
snsabot: Logged on 2021-01-06 22:30:48 verisimilitude: Does anyone here have children; that would probably be horrifying.
asciilifeform: how's the organiker life, PeterL ?
PeterL: thought I would comment: I have four kids, live in the US, it's not so bad
PeterL: Job has been keeping me busy lately
asciilifeform: orlov had a memorable line, where iirc 'the collapse won't happen for you until it happens ~to~ you'
PeterL: I guess I try not to think about it too much, just take one day at a time
asciilifeform: PeterL: actually famous axiom of life in ru prison. ( absolute prohibition on discussing 'future plans' )
verisimilitude: Hello, PeterL.
PeterL: hello verisimilitude!
PeterL: One think about having teenagers, everybody now is "exploring their sexual identity", go to a middle school and you won't find any straight kids anymore, it's just not cool
verisimilitude: That's part of the horror, yes.
PeterL: my oldest was leaning toward being lesbian for a while, but now she has a crush on an older guy and so she is saying she is a "femme trans gay boy" - I say if I have to buy tampons every month you count as a girl, I don't care who you date.
PeterL: but maybe I am not being a very supportive and understanding father
verisimilitude: There was a period in my life when I questioned my sexuality; as it happens, I actually just hate being around anyone.
asciilifeform: PeterL: atm harmless; in near future, might getcha picked up by gestapo, a la sweden (beta preview demo for usaschwitz)
trinque will be homeschooling til well past identity bootstrapping
trinque: kids will select randomly from what's available
trinque incidentally was never much concerned with correctness re: sex. fuck who you like.
trinque: but the fixation on it is perverse.
shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-01-15#1029173 <<< my condolences
snsabot: Logged on 2021-01-15 13:29:31 PeterL: my oldest was leaning toward being lesbian for a while, but now she has a crush on an older guy and so she is saying she is a "femme trans gay boy" - I say if I have to buy tampons every month you count as a girl, I don't care who you date.
asciilifeform: trinque: reich has great plans for the young, tho: to add mandatory endocrine bonsaikittenization to the 1990s--current psychotropics push.
verisimilitude: It's very convenient, to have a suitably-large segment of the population mutilated, dependent on hormone drugs, alienated from family and friends, and believing the governments or corporations when told that they're accepted there, however.
verisimilitude: The NSA supports trannies; I'm certain trannies don't think much about helping surveill the USA, especially if surveilling ``transphobic'' people, or whatever.
verisimilitude: The same goes for Google, et al. The controlled opposition union at Google is shaping to be this jannisary force.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: this has been going on, as described, for some yrs
shinohai: verisimilitude: Not surprising, since Google is nearly 100% tranny engineered.
asciilifeform: see, naturally occurring (even after 'soy treatment', veganism, etc) d00dz, not ~quite~ bonsai enuff for Glorious Future
verisimilitude: Arguably, it's been happening for millenia, asciilifeform.
verisimilitude: Instead of eunuchs, we've trannies this time around.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: eunuchs were comparatively mildly crippled, vs. today's state of the art.
verisimilitude: I agree. Eunuchs are naturally-occurring; I remark in my reflection on the last decade to the effect of those I find responsible.
thimbronion: Also, only what, 10% of pre-eunuchs survived the operation to become actualy eunuchs?
asciilifeform: thimbronion: iirc in china, about 2/3
asciilifeform: ( is where most 'mass production' of these )
verisimilitude: If that's the case, I'd imagine plenty of the eunuchs are defective, and still have a testicle or half.
verisimilitude: If that be the case, that is.
verisimilitude: That was just a joke about Chinese manufacturing.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: there were comical (to us, not to participants) incidents at various times in china when a 're-examination' of eunuchs was triggered, and some 1 in 3 typically req'd re-chopping (because dodged the knife 1st time). in practice was a kind of decimation.
verisimilitude: ``(to us, not to participants)''
verisimilitude: Well of course. Human suffering is usually only funnier when it happens to someone else.
verisimilitude: How recent was this?
trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-01-15#1029183 << hormone disruptors already in the food, the cleaning products, the ...
snsabot: Logged on 2021-01-15 15:29:55 asciilifeform: trinque: reich has great plans for the young, tho: to add mandatory endocrine bonsaikittenization to the 1990s--current psychotropics push.
trinque: our house has a strict policy on all of this
trinque could swear his beard got even more glorious as a result.
verisimilitude: I try to avoid many ills, but it's also futile in many ways.
verisimilitude: I exercise most days, which has greatly helped me.
verisimilitude: Misery loves company.
verisimilitude: To switch topics, I finished reading that Connection Machine paper earlier, and it was interesting to learn how it was actually a memory, relying on a separate machine to ask it questions. It's very different from the GA144, akin to the difference between Forth and Lisp: Cells can address cells arbitrarily far away, request free cells for allocation, links are bidirectional, no cell is wasted as wire, and each cell is even simpler than
verisimilitude: an F18.
verisimilitude: I started reading about systolic arrays afterwards, and see APL reflected in them.
verisimilitude: It's probably bias, but I find it difficult to imagine how a non-von Neumann architecture would handle well interactively responding to the user.
verisimilitude: Every usage of a cellular automaton for arbitrary computation I've seen simply emulates a von Neumann machine with them.