feedbot: http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2020/yrc-re-genesis-and-patch-for-smooth-scrolling-and-other-fixes/ << Fixpoint -- yrc re-genesis and patch for smooth scrolling and other fixes
jurov: BingoBoingo: do you realize how this enemy was used by mp to have us where he wanted to?
jurov: Paranoia is good resource, but in moderation.
trinque: jurov: what enemy?
trinque: I know which, just want to hear it.
trinque: I did not show up in 2015 or w/e it was and get brainwashed into rejecting the criminals in DC.
trinque: that said, as per asciilifeform, I am not aware that there's an "outside", certainly not for one without an armada
jurov: trinque: "usg"
thimbronion: jurov: now that you mention it there was sort of a contradiction between "leave the us now!" and "usg is incompetent and ineffectual."
jurov: thimbronion: i probably never wholly understood what is meant by usg, it seemed to me like an archetype of all darkness in the world
asciilifeform: jurov: asciilifeform's pov on this differed from mp's. the latter, as i understand, defined only 'socialist' debasement of currency (and, eventually, the entire post-feudal spectrum of politics) as 'root evil'. but exempted chrematists. asciilifeform does not exempt chrematists.
thimbronion: jurov: I thought it was this kind of undying, immune to democracy kind of bureaucratic beast with factions, ala usg.red and usg.blue.
asciilifeform: ( likbez: χρηματιστική (aristotle's) -- folx wealthy from manipulating money per se, not limited to printing it. i.e. usurers, constructors of 'financial instruments' , etc. )
asciilifeform: 'mp's philosophy' above of course referring to his orig. writings. in practice seems that his only actual gripe w/ usg was that it was sitting on 'his' chair, that he'd rather sit in himself.
asciilifeform: (in the fine historical tradition of revolutionaries of all times and places.)
thimbronion: asciilifeform: wasn't it more that in addition to not being a sovereign itself, it also stamps out sovereignty where ever it might be found? mp at least claimed to want more mps.
asciilifeform: thimbronion: he claimed to want a number of things, some of'em imho rather contradictory. in the style of e.g. lenin.
asciilifeform: to give concrete example -- non-debased currency and freedom of commerce; but also somehow at same time feudal-style hereditary nobility. ignoring the historical fact that the former , on planet3, nailed the latter
thimbronion: asciilifeform: I got the impression he didn't think it would last for eternity, but wanted at least another go around.
thimbronion: asciilifeform: I think he even went so far as to propose restarting Bitcoin periodically.
trinque: jurov: I'd tend to credit your view if you mean in the "lizard hitler" manner
trinque: though if you mean the empire "isn't that bad" to hell with ya.
trinque: thimbronion: this was apparent to me as well. can't both be incompetent and all-devouring great satan
thimbronion: trinque: My rationale for going abroad at this point is - and I'm not certain about this at all - a) you don't want to be at the epicenter of a collapse and b) being in an area with a weak government has advantages if you know how to use them.
trinque: asciilifeform: I don't see inconsistency in the republic-with-king view. Plato's own work on subj featured such.
trinque: I also don't recall hereditarity coming in.
trinque: I much expected the tradition to become "burn my coins with my corpse" if the fallen had no other plans.
trinque: thimbronion: I don't know; I suspect I do want to be around for w/e happens to Texas.
trinque: and at any rate, gotta die somehow
thimbronion: trinque: I love Texas. Wish I had stayed there.
asciilifeform: trinque: fella made regular references to dukes, margraves, etc. as characters of a 'better time', destroyed by demotism
asciilifeform: the chronology (either 'fr rev started destruction of sovereignty' or the 'diet of worms' one, he had at least 2) imho was just as selective a reading of actual events as what was taught at sovok schools. (albeit 'with sign bit flipped.')
asciilifeform: church, merchants, even private agent 'sourcery prosecutors' -- often successfully interfered with, and even deposed, nominal sovereigns of $locale
asciilifeform: historians who bite the 'return golden age' hook inevitably suffer from problem of 'just when was golden age?' -- if one dwells on any particular, will inevitably find not only problems, but rather 'modern' ones
asciilifeform: even as far back as e.g. egypt -- solid power vertical ? not quite, priest caste hijacked pharaonic sovereignty until ~0 remained
billymg: asciilifeform: i agree in general with "there is no outside", but i think there are degrees to the inside-ness, which mostly have to do with the usg's cost to harass vs. result of harassment. e.g. it costs little to go bother the person living in a big city high rise (doorman working for building corp just hands over keys), whereas bothering the guy living on a ranch in texas costs slightly more
asciilifeform: billymg: tricky question. in countryside, also fewer witnesses when yer ranch 'randomly' burns to the ground
billymg: asciilifeform: yes, ideally ranch with some neighbors you know well and see you at church every week
billymg: increases cost to usg
asciilifeform: billymg: or , conversely, the hassids of nyc are effectively autonomous. w/ own secret courts, judges, juries, executioners
billymg: so this i see as another bullet for thimbronion's list, country outside (at least physically) of zone increases costs again
asciilifeform: despite living mere dozen km from lolstreet
asciilifeform: i.e. geography aint errythin
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-06-08#1014412 << 'devouring satan' w/ dull teeth, imho entirely consistent picture .
snsabot: Logged on 2020-06-08 11:48:43 trinque: thimbronion: this was apparent to me as well. can't both be incompetent and all-devouring great satan
billymg: asciilifeform: as in, connections matter? of course, wouldn't disagree with that
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-06-08#1014409 << rather like idea of 'restart the sun periodically' imho. while it remains a decentralized system, will behave moar like a force of nature than anyffin within anyone's power to 'restart'.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-06-08 11:43:43 thimbronion: asciilifeform: I think he even went so far as to propose restarting Bitcoin periodically.
asciilifeform: ( and when becomes effectively centralized -- will collapse, as all reichs collapse. )
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-06-08#1014416 << this is the default 'capt. kidd' setting. nobody's yet come up with method to yank privkeys outta corpse.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-06-08 11:56:03 trinque: I much expected the tradition to become "burn my coins with my corpse" if the fallen had no other plans.
billymg: something else i personally like about being socially distanced from the US is not having to interact daily with the inmates. especially now with their mask-wearing, blm-kneeling campaign going on. i think there's some mental health value in just not being steeped in the madness 24/7
billymg: but this can also be seen as my failure to not build a decent meat-wot consisting only of sane people
billymg: failure to build*
asciilifeform: billymg: i dun recall, where ? south america ?
billymg: costa rica, on the pacific coast side
asciilifeform: incidentally the muzzles thing is double-edged sword -- i expect the 'face recognition camera' folx are pissing themselves
thimbronion: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-06-08#1014436 << I think this was originally in the context of a discussion of the ever expanding size of the blockchain, or the growing number of lost coins, or something like that. So yes, similar to sun running out of hydrogen.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-06-08 12:32:24 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-06-08#1014409 << rather like idea of 'restart the sun periodically' imho. while it remains a decentralized system, will behave moar like a force of nature than anyffin within anyone's power to 'restart'.
asciilifeform: thimbronion: indeed similar. and incidentally much sooner than 'fragocalypse' .
snsabot: Logged on 2020-05-25 10:13:18 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-05-25#1013080 << depends what means 'bitcoin'. the timestamp counter overflows in 2038, for instance.
asciilifeform: 'size of chain' is red herring, even nao you can buy hdd (well, if yer in civilization, rather than jungle..) that will hold next 100+yr of blox
asciilifeform: this, incidentally, is the major underpinning of my 'there aint an outside' -- and not 'cia will shoot you in panama' (tho the ghosts of noriega's men will nod.) the fact that you can't make a 16TB hdd outta jaguar skins.
asciilifeform: !w poll
watchglass: Polling 11 nodes...
watchglass: 205.134.172.26:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 108.31.170.3:8333 : (pool-108-31-170-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.035s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=633741 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.084s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=633741 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.082s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=633741
watchglass: 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.083s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=633741
watchglass: 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.166s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=633741
watchglass: 192.151.158.26:8333 : Alive: (0.205s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=633741
watchglass: 143.202.160.10:8333 : Alive: (0.221s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=633741
watchglass: 213.109.238.156:8333 : Alive: (0.341s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=633741
watchglass: 103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.561s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=633741
watchglass: 188.121.168.69:8333 : (rev-188-121-168-69.radiolan.sk) Alive: (0.383s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=633742
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-06-08#1014390 << hm , i thought pythonism were verboten in diana's reich.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-06-08 02:53:57 feedbot: http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2020/yrc-re-genesis-and-patch-for-smooth-scrolling-and-other-fixes/ << Fixpoint -- yrc re-genesis and patch for smooth scrolling and other fixes
asciilifeform: i guess only when asciilifeform wrote it.
jurov: don't call her names not to her face!!!11
asciilifeform: jurov: incidentally notice that i dun have a voice filter, diana, obama, etc. could 'show face' whenever they like.
asciilifeform: iirc the only fella i muted was vexual , for brazen spam
billymg: asciilifeform: re: available items, bandwidth, etc. - definitely true. and when can be had, always at significantly higher cost
asciilifeform: billymg: i haven't been to cr; but did participate in all kindsa gymnastics to get iron to (and in the end, from) piz in BingoBoingostan. so can speak about cost.
asciilifeform: and, note, this was when borders were open, planes -- flying, iron -- freely sold in usa, etc
asciilifeform: re bw -- same bw costs roughly 10x less here than did in BingoBoingostan . (that is, same numerically per spec sheet. the 1 here also doesn't fall down after 5min of 50 $ ddos , for instance.. )
billymg: asciilifeform: i think there might be a common element between hassids (and amish, etc.) carrying on unmolested, and e.g. alf not being gassed -- members of the herd are not dropping out of school/office life to go join
asciilifeform: billymg: 'molestation' is typically result of some kinda roi calculation, on some level. as in (at least the early phase) of 1500s witchcraft trials.
billymg: asciilifeform: yes, fully believe it's an roi calculation
asciilifeform: that is, if speaking of 'bullet with yer name on it' rather than 'shrapnel addressed to 'occupant''.
billymg: asciilifeform: same situation here for bandwidth, about 10x
asciilifeform: some people live in arctic circle, where bag of cement costs 20x what costs on mainland. they find it worthwhile, for whatever reason (petro prospectors, hermits, whoever.) again personal taste.
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-06-08#1014481 << not sure if that's what i'm referring to, though familiar with concept
snsabot: Logged on 2020-06-08 13:23:35 asciilifeform: that is, if speaking of 'bullet with yer name on it' rather than 'shrapnel addressed to 'occupant''.
billymg: but i mean, if john/jane doe all started dropping out of usg.college to go live amish lifestyle, then they'd suddenly start getting attention
billymg: likewise if masses all decided to tmsr (to the best of their ability)
asciilifeform: billymg: hassids, amish, gypsies, etc. all have traditional immunity to this problem , via hostility to outsiders
billymg: as does (did) tmsr
asciilifeform: billymg: ditto ye olde tmsr aha
asciilifeform: ( what 'masses' to do there? in fact bar raised until remained null set.. )
billymg: asciilifeform: perhaps nothing, but just no longer doing what they are supposed to (taking out loans and shopping, warming office seat, etc.)
asciilifeform: this dun require 'joining the partizans' tho
asciilifeform: asciilifeform for instance has been happily not-taking-loans for 20y. w/out asking anyone for permission..
billymg: if one or two cows wander off the farm, farmer might not notice, or care. if half do, goes to check where they went
asciilifeform: billymg: observe also that if cow missing, can 100% be sure that it went to another farm (or meat market.)
billymg: asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform: in ye olde days of serfdom, serf-catchers did not have to search all of europe, they searched neighbouring estates.
billymg: asciilifeform: that's a good point, serfs need livelihood, and only livelihood on offer is from other allies anyway
billymg: but with the closed loop groups (amish, etc.), aren't they fully "opted out" of the sanctioned economy?
asciilifeform: billymg: the ~truly~ closed loop folx are arguably 'dark matter' from my pov. but re the amish, they're being corroded steadily, already make use of all kindsa industrial tech 'strictly for commerce' nominally
asciilifeform: they might argue that 'not addicted' but the only 100% litmus for this is 'cold turkey'
asciilifeform: meanwhile, a wholly-unrelated adaism .
billymg: asciilifeform: man, black pill indeed
asciilifeform: billymg: it may be possible for 'deracinated moderns' to copy, to some extent, the 'technology' of the closed-loop folx, but historically poor track record of this afaik.
asciilifeform: the 1 apparently solid fact (and mp never tired of restating it in various forms) is that it can't be organized around 'roi' / rational advantage .
billymg: asciilifeform: not sure i follow, what means "copy 'technology' of closed-loop folx"?
asciilifeform: e.g. the ru 'old believers' are still around. and found as far as uruguay. but they took centuries to make selves 100% immiscible w/ heathen civ. -- folx wake up at 4 in the morning, 2h of prayer, then again matins, then vespers...
asciilifeform: billymg: copy in the sense of 100% separation from dependence on the collapsing mainstream.
billymg: ah, gotcha
billymg: but with own chip fabs, and fiber optic cable? or just the separation part?
asciilifeform: just the separation. the q of 'how can old believers in jungle make own h-bomb' i'ma leave to sf writers.
feedbot: http://thimbron.com/2020/06/the-voice-of-trilema/ << Thimbron -- The Voice of Trilema
asciilifeform: in 1970s, a sov. expedition to taiga found some uncontacted old believers. could barely have conversation, spoke 1600s dialect. they had a preserved brass kettle.
asciilifeform: is possible to take with you, sometimes, selected pieces of the civ you left behind. and make'em last.
asciilifeform: this possib. the least 'black' pov i can think of re subj.
billymg: asciilifeform: will read, brb contractor just got here
verisimilitude: Regarding that aspect of Ada, asciilifeform, I'd argue the proper view is to use the standard interfaces where feasible, and not at all care about the particular operating system. This is the manner of thing ``exception when others => ...'' exists for.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: the problem (just as, incidentally , in common lisp) is that standard does not always give the necessary knob.
asciilifeform: and not even necessarily speaking of 'exotica' e.g. mmap. even bit shifts were omitted from the standard.
asciilifeform: in yet-other cases (e.g. command line param handling), the functionality exists in standard gnat but is incompat. w/ restricted compilation profiles as-written.
verisimilitude: Yes, Ada has me wanting for finer-grained errors in Common Lisp, but it lacks these; as for standard lacking, I'd do without were it feasible.
verisimilitude: Wouldn't the solution for Ada.Command_Line be to compile the overlooking ``main'' procedure with its own settings, asciilifeform?
asciilifeform: in principle can 'do without' programming at all. lotsa folx do.
asciilifeform: in practice, if you want e.g. fast, cached random access to a 10TB data set, it's mmap or suck thumb. w/out access to the cpu page table, can't implement. and under unixlikes, that means mmap knob.
verisimilitude: Sure, I'm not trying to unduly criticize. I referred specifically to the error-handling comment.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: it still aint clear to me what commenter would consider to be a reasonable way to handle 'oops, disk evaporated mid-write' eggog.
asciilifeform: it's similar to the infamous 'jesus nut' on helicopter. there is no plan in the flight manual for wat-do if the nut breaks. chopper becomes brick.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-06-08#1014524 << stock gnat offers no way to do this , aside from rewriting the standard lib entirely
snsabot: Logged on 2020-06-08 15:41:49 verisimilitude: Wouldn't the solution for Ada.Command_Line be to compile the overlooking ``main'' procedure with its own settings, asciilifeform?
verisimilitude: I feel a similar pain when wanting to have an Internet interface that isn't tainted by POSIX Sockets.
asciilifeform: fwiw i have an unreleased ver. of ffa for embedded boxen, where does not rely on linux knobs.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: can always try your hand at bare-iron os and drive the nic yerself..
asciilifeform: i've a draft even of that. worx w/ 'realtek' nic.
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-06-08#1014528 This is a nearly omnipresent pain in modern programming, which can suck so much of the joy out of it. Operating systems provide little in the way of true solutions to exceptional situations, transferring the bulk of the work anywhere it doesn't belong.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-06-08 15:43:49 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: it still aint clear to me what commenter would consider to be a reasonable way to handle 'oops, disk evaporated mid-write' eggog.
asciilifeform: re os knobs, the only ones used in ffa/peh are command line param eater, and opener of rng device. errything else is device-agnostic. (i.e. will run anywhere with a reasonably large memory for stack)
verisimilitude: Unfortunately, most programmers are content to ignore it, similarly to the C programmers who think ``C is simple, just ignore the standard the compiler uses first.''.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i sorta have entire www on the subj.
asciilifeform: 'cryostat' incidentally aint for use in ffa/peh, but for experiments in throwing out trb's lame db.
verisimilitude: At the least, it's still pleasant to write programs in a domain or system where this pain evaporates.
verisimilitude: Say, asciilifeform, what's the opinion on this: https://ngnghm.github.io
verisimilitude: It's a quite nice set of documents, I think.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: iirc have seen before , was linked by a commenter on 1 of my pieces re urbitism
asciilifeform: heavy on fluff, very light on physical 'how to build the fucking machine already' grit.
asciilifeform: the author, like other urbitists, seemed to have 0 awareness that the low-level model is unphysical.
asciilifeform: (i.e. doesn't directly map to any device one could actually construct. and the indirect mappings offered are laughably dysfunctional... )
asciilifeform: long before any of these semiliterate folx were born, already this problem was known, e.g. 'prolog' prog lang, where two otherwise very similar programs can be written, but one will run in coupla seconds, while the other internally demands the solution to a heavy np-complete problem and would take a century or two
asciilifeform: cuz that's what you get if you try to layer abstractions the way tsar alexander laid out railroads ( with straight-edge and pencil, through mountains, rivers, etc )
verisimilitude: I found the explanations to be decent, and entirely unlike the Urbit model and its issues, which are criticized in the ultimate piece therein.
verisimilitude: This criticism reminds me of that ``You can't set a Lisp book on a machine and have it learn Lisp.'' foolishness I've now paraphrased.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: they're 'decent', sure, but woefully short on physical examples. ( and imho any discussion of sane computing w/out detailed reference to the state of the art : the lisp machines -- reveals author to be ignoramus, at best )
asciilifeform: the lm's actually, physically existed, even sold, this aint alcubierre's interstellar drive etc.
lobbes: http://alt.ericbenevides.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-06-08#1014438 << or 'black mold'. Working the last 4 years at a mega-bank has taught me that there sure as hell are large incompenent groups of people that are devouring many things
zzz999: Logged on 2020-06-08 16:40:40 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-06-08#1014412 << 'devouring satan' w/ dull teeth, imho entirely consistent picture .
snsabot: Logged on 2020-06-08 11:48:43 trinque: thimbronion: this was apparent to me as well. can't both be incompetent and all-devouring great satan
BingoBoingo: I do not see this, in itself, to be a problem.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-06-08 07:52:36 jurov: BingoBoingo: do you realize how this enemy was used by mp to have us where he wanted to?
feedbot: http://mvdstandard.net/2020/06/raids-executed-in-search-for-documents-taken-from-ursec-by-former-official-on-loan-to-communications-regulator/ << The Montevideo Standard -- Raids Executed In Search For Documents Taken From URSEC By Former Official On Loan To Communications Regulator
asciilifeform: wb lobbes
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i recall in '13 uphill climb to convince him that there even were organized enemy.
BingoBoingo: Enemy doesn't have to be organized.
lobbes: right. Iirc MP's main argument was that the 'usg' was more like a cancer than an organized satan. And I can say from experience with the beast that it is very much like a cancer. Unorganized (no top-down authority) individual cells of people that want to expand their litte cluster of cells
lobbes: but overall, unaware of what the other cells are doing
lobbes: ty asciilifeform
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo, lobbes : 'organized' dun necessarily mean 'waterfall'. and tumour masses certainly have local organization (look into angiogenesis etc)