Hide Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2020-05-09 | 2020-05-11 → ↓
feedbot: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=3742 << Loper OS -- "Finite Field Arithmetic." Chapter 21A-Bis: Fix for Lethal Flaw in Ch.15's Greatest Common Divisor.
asciilifeform: ^ full postmortem and cure for this item .
snsabot: Logged on 2020-05-07 15:14:35 asciilifeform: in other noose, when testing Ext.GCD against the regular ch.15 kind, found a catastrophic bug in... the latter.
asciilifeform: !w poll
watchglass: Polling 11 nodes...
watchglass: 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.088s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=629854
watchglass: 205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.082s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=629854
watchglass: 205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.082s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=629854
watchglass: 108.31.170.3:8333 : (pool-108-31-170-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.098s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=629854 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.145s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=629854 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.106s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=629854
watchglass: 143.202.160.10:8333 : Alive: (0.221s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=629854
watchglass: 213.109.238.156:8333 : Alive: (0.341s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=629854
watchglass: 188.121.168.69:8333 : (rev-188-121-168-69.radiolan.sk) Alive: (0.306s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=629854
watchglass: 192.151.158.26:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 20 sec.)
watchglass: 103.36.92.112:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 20 sec.)
BingoBoingo: Less than 24 hours till halving if block production rate holds steady
asciilifeform: iirc last coupla these had ~0 visible to naked eye effect
Vexual: so we're not watching bitcoinity for cool happening gifs?
asciilifeform: bitcoinity ?
Vexual: price chart website, they add gifs when all time high
asciilifeform didn't give half a shit 10y ago, and doesn't now
asciilifeform: all that interests asciilifeform re subj is the 'macroscopic'; i.e. the obv fact that exch rate aint gonna be 1e8 $ per suddenly. cuz the thing is controlled via the usual means .
snsabot: Logged on 2020-05-05 19:56:14 asciilifeform: it worx because there's a neverending supply of a) dumb shits who see 'paper gold' as == to actual b) greedy shits who want 'leverage'
asciilifeform: the 'omg111 it moved by 3%' i'ma leave to the speculator vermin
asciilifeform: they -- can care, being paid to.
Vexual: I'd forgotten block reward was halving
asciilifeform: nSubsidy >>= (nHeight / 210000);
asciilifeform: init was 50.
Vexual: how many unspent 50's?
asciilifeform: 'exercise for reader'
asciilifeform: been a while since i bothered to sum'em
asciilifeform ftr doesn't buy into the old 'unspent for Y yrs means keyz surely lost!11' mythology
asciilifeform: i have coin from '11 i haven't spent. what of it.
Vexual: wuflu must've sent a few coins to the deep
asciilifeform: what reason to think this ?
Vexual: statistically speaking. might have
Vexual: not must have
asciilifeform: 'statistically speaking' my arse could fall through the floor.
asciilifeform: Vexual: helps to also remember that what can be misplaced, can also be found .
asciilifeform: the 'finds' have sometimes visible effect. the losses (being unpublic) do not .
Vexual: visible and real obviously not the same
Vexual: block reward halving effects are not for the visible eye as you said
asciilifeform: see also the well-known effect of the spanish new world gold on spain in 16th c.
Vexual: dafaq is bitcoinp?
asciilifeform: Vexual: old gedankenexperiment of mine. a hypothetical bitcoin noad which forks off if coins thought to be shitoshi's are ever spent.
asciilifeform: not partic. relevant per se to this thrd.
asciilifeform: re effects of 'losing' and 'finding', given that the exch rates are a figment of collective psychosis, the 'visibility' in principle matters.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-05-05 20:03:43 asciilifeform: ( there is no contradiction here, incidentally -- the paper serves both to inflate the perceived value, and to depress, when necessary . the latter is very easy to do w/ a value that is artificial to begin with)
Vexual: I'll read that later.
Vexual: exchange rate aside, at some point fees will be greater than block reward
asciilifeform: think of it this way -- if a nuke sub transporting 500 tonnes of au goes down w/ melted reactor, making the metal unrecoverable for 1e4 yrs, not only will you an' i not likely hear about it, but it will have 0 detectable effect on 'market'. the folx printing the 'paper gold' will carry on printing, the ones buying bars, will end up with tungsten cores a little more often, is all
asciilifeform: Vexual: fees? maybe 20y from nao
Vexual: well it's already happened on occassion
Vexual: dya think satoshi would change the halving algo with time machine?
Vexual: some fuck sent 200 coin fee once i think i remember
asciilifeform: and some unknown number of similar idjits dropped their privkeys into /dev/null , what of it
Vexual: just a bit of trivia
Vexual: i think the mine might've even returned it,
Vexual: go figure
asciilifeform: it was, what, 8x the standard block reward at the time ? possib. considered it worth the 'pr'
mats: who knows if fees can even support mining without a block subsidy
asciilifeform: ohai mats. wb.
asciilifeform: mats: what means 'support mining' ?
mats: the growth in hash rate recently has been pedestrian compared to previous years
asciilifeform: mining will still happen.
asciilifeform: whether is eats gigawatts or terawatts , yes, depends on reward. but worked ok when it summed to kilowatts.
mats: presumably the miners will eventually try a new chain when this one is juiced
asciilifeform: afaik they already 'try chains'
Vexual: chains been pretty fuckin solid so far
asciilifeform: what's that mean ?
Vexual: there has been one chain since inception
asciilifeform: Vexual: didja sleep through the '17-'18 fork warz or wat
Vexual: mustve
Vexual: look, the shits still working, if that doesn't amaze you more than the imaginary coal fire that runs the mines, fuck me
asciilifeform: Vexual: what would count to you as 'stopped working' ?
Vexual: can you imagine sanding next to that?
asciilifeform: i.e. has 'gopher' 'stopped working' ?
Vexual: god question
asciilifeform: i used it not long ago
Vexual: let me think on it
asciilifeform: by some defs, it will still 'work' in 3000 a.d. by others, 'never worked'...
Vexual: oh shit...
Vexual: what's the block reward in 3000? goes to 0 right?
asciilifeform: do the maffs eh
asciilifeform: not esp. interesting q tho, block counter is 32bit lol
Vexual: I don't remember it halving indefinitely.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-05-10 20:45:21 asciilifeform: nSubsidy >>= (nHeight / 210000);
Vexual: an aside
asciilifeform: naturally it can't half if already 0 eh
mats: they havent made a serious effort since bcash
asciilifeform: 50*100000000 is 33bit long.
asciilifeform: that's 33 'halvings' from '09 to fin.
asciilifeform: (i.e. to 0)
asciilifeform: mats: i admit that after the 1st btc giveaway (aka 'bcash') i tuned out, 0 of the later attempts afaik were even worth the evening to set up nodes for to milk'em
Vexual: presumable theres still unmilked things I haven't heard of
asciilifeform: Vexual: some folx walk train stations to pick up loose change, too
asciilifeform: it's, i imagine, a living, for some
mats: the halving is a precarious time for holders
asciilifeform: i srsly dun recall ~anyffin interesting directly attributable to any of the prev. halvings.
Vexual: halvings mark time tho
asciilifeform: motion of moon also marks time, lol, what of it
Vexual: it's interesting, like the moon
mats: miner economics are challenged, their income collapses while operational costs are unchanged
asciilifeform: mats: what's it to holder tho ?
asciilifeform: if 9 of 10 miners goes to mars and doesn't come back, i won't notice
mats: if they turn off enough hash it'll ruin network usability for hours or weeks
asciilifeform: scarcely anyone actually uses it tho
asciilifeform: so oughta have said 'txers', rather than 'holders'
asciilifeform: holders ~don't tx.
asciilifeform: i for instance send a tx maybe erry other yr.
asciilifeform: re miners off -- not clear to me what, other than proverbial nuke war, would actually give you suddenly 'month of unusable'
asciilifeform: say hash rate drops 2x. so what, 20min per block instead of 10, until next adjust.
shinohai: Miners switch off, diff falls, can use fpga's again :D
asciilifeform: shinohai: use old pentium again!1111
asciilifeform won't complain...
shinohai wouldn't either ...
asciilifeform: it's entertaining, really, all these imaginary 'problems' that go away after 10sec of arithmetic
asciilifeform: yet folx studiously avoid thinking about the actual ones. cuz too depressing, i suppose
mats: i'm thinking about what happened to atc
mats: i'm sure you remember that
asciilifeform: mats: what would have to happen to turn btc into atc, lol
asciilifeform: asteroid ?
asciilifeform: a pill for sha1, i suppose, would do it
mats: miner cartel tries to pump a new chain and 99% of current btc mining quits
asciilifeform: 99% quits, we're back to, when, 2014 ?
asciilifeform: btc worked a++, far as i'm concerned, in '14.
asciilifeform: certainly not 'atc it in garage' level.
asciilifeform: the variant of mass suicide by miners is only interesting to the suiciders
asciilifeform suspects that the 'bcash' incident put even the dumbest miners off the taste of 'pump new chain' for a good while, if not permanently
mats: frankly i thought losing the first billion dollars wouldve done it, but then they went in for more
asciilifeform: afaik you'd need a genuine cryptocalypse, i.e. hard break in the algos, for this scenario
asciilifeform: mats: could be diff. set of 'theys'
asciilifeform: impossible to say from my chair
asciilifeform: that's the thing, miners -- disposable, like indiv. bees in hive.
mats: who knows
asciilifeform: mats: iirc even ibm's ppc factory in ny state sold to china some time in last coupla yrs
asciilifeform: meanwhile.
BingoBoingo: By this time next year US wages will probably be competitive with Asia even if the work ethic isn't
asciilifeform: lulzy 'maga' tho.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: if rents also on par w/ asia, who'll notice
BingoBoingo: Money printer goes Brrrrrrr
asciilifeform: surely.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: whole thing is lulzy. if i hadn't caught the plague personally, might've hardly noticed it existed.
asciilifeform: disappointing 'apocalypse', would like money back!11
shinohai: Be patient and wait for the murder hornets to propagate in greater numbers.
BingoBoingo: lol, in updates to local news http://mvdstandard.net/2020/05/anti-drug-brigade-headquarters-hit-by-molotov-bomb/#comment-45 << more serious bomb apparently than initial "molotov" designation suggested
feedbot: http://mvdstandard.net/2020/05/mides-audit-shows-probably-fraud-on-the-part-of-local-ngos-more-than-9-million-usd-in-diverted-funds/ << The Montevideo Standard -- MIDES Audit Shows Probably Fraud On The Part Of Local NGOs, More Than 9 Million USD In Diverted Funds
asciilifeform: shinohai: lol, waited for those since '98
BingoBoingo: One local rag is reporting the possibility of using alpaca anti-bodies as an uncommon cold treatment
BingoBoingo prepping to hop on cam in a bit
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i imagine analogous to the folx in ru pushing (ancient stockpile of) 'anti-flu' pharma as ditto
asciilifeform: who has what old garbage lying around, will push -- that.
mats: i can only imagine the fireworks if usg sanctions biz partners of huawei like tsmc
asciilifeform: mats: wai would it sanction taiwan co.?
asciilifeform: as if it somehow weren't usg's very own 'unsinkable carrier'(tm)
mats: dunno, big orange gets dumb ideas in his head and does something stupid
mats: like allegedly threatening the us ksa security agreement over shale
asciilifeform: mats: only thing poor fella 'does from own head' involve golf
asciilifeform: errything else -- perma-bureaucracy
asciilifeform: the folx who 'o
asciilifeform: 'omfg, president X did xyz' remind me of teenage gurlz who think their 'beloved actor' ~is~ the $character he plays
asciilifeform: last us prez who 'tried to do from own head' afaik was kennedy.
asciilifeform: and that went to the obv place.
mats: ah yes the famous lizard hitler hypothesis
asciilifeform: doesn't even req. lizard
asciilifeform: 0 lizard in ye olde su, but do you think it was marasmatic brezhnev who e.g. started afgan war ?
mats: the ussr is a mystery to me
asciilifeform: wasn't so diff from current day usa. just diff set of animated cadavers 'in charge'
mats: anyway, im curious about it like you mightve been about a hypothetical invasion of crimea
mats: even though i wasnt born in tw
asciilifeform: invaded, what, 5x, since the turks? i imagine will be again at some pt. it's primo real estate.
asciilifeform: germans offed, what, 98% of sevastopol .
asciilifeform: re tw -- nfi. the 1 fella i knew in meatspace from there, i asked 'so, ready to fight for motherland?' -- looked at me like i had cock instead of nose.
asciilifeform: 'fight? we have 'dun shot,iknow seekrits' rehearsed daily'
mats: their military is definitionally unready
asciilifeform: what would it mean for island to 'be ready'
mats: like so much as 80% manning in personnel slots
asciilifeform: approx on par w/ u.s. army's, last i knew, %
asciilifeform: (what with'em 'double counting' national guard units as 'army' )
mats: lots of pomp and fanfare about american tanks and jets going to taipei late last year, but no mention how they'll rust in a hole somewhere and even odds of being turned on
asciilifeform: supposing even shipped, rather than 'money moved, tanks ???'
asciilifeform: last i knew 0 tanks produced in usa since '12
mats: arms are generally about tribute but this time is particularly egregious now that conscription is being wound down
asciilifeform: oh was it ?
asciilifeform: afaik south kr still conscripts
mats: theyve abandoned all pretense to military readiness
asciilifeform: догоним и перегоним америку (tm)(r)
mats: all the more confusing considering separatist interests
asciilifeform: it aint clear to me what the point was (other than graft) of maintaining the pretense of 'ready against china'
mats: propping up the taipei govt, for starters
asciilifeform: the chinese could take tw if armed with bows & arrows, dun matter what on other end
asciilifeform: ( 'why' is separate q )
asciilifeform: on asciilifeform's home world we had the joke, 'mao will arm china with... stools and radios' 'stool to stand on, radio to say when to jump from it'
asciilifeform: (notion being, mega-earthquake)
mats: on a similar note, theyre shuttering existing (and under construction) nuclear reactors, in favor of... more natural gas shipments from beijing
asciilifeform: so similar to eu
asciilifeform: w/ china in role of usa
asciilifeform: i suppose they will at some pt sign a formal surrender, like hk
asciilifeform: and the price of hard drives won't even change..
Vexual still awaits alf's journey to the east
Vexual: alf in hk
asciilifeform: Vexual: dafuq did asciilifeform lose in the east
Vexual: dev money? idk
asciilifeform: i dun recall losing anyffing there..
asciilifeform: so to go and look for.
asciilifeform: iirc even mp didn't bother, and he goes to erry possible shithole for religious reasons
Vexual: ah, i see
Vexual: religious?
asciilifeform: y'know, his religion, w/ self in role of muhamed
Vexual: I hadn't made that connection
Vexual: having a wee vodka alf?
asciilifeform: lolno, why
Vexual: you're more vibrant than usual
asciilifeform: writing ch20b just nao
Vexual: 15 rework mustve been a work
asciilifeform: took ~4d
Vexual: futher fuel for the vodka assumtion
asciilifeform: believe or not, 0 vodka involved in 15 either
Vexual: at least not the second iteration
Vexual: i'm joking. I can't parse ch1
asciilifeform: i've yet to hear of anybody actually attempting ch1 an' then choking,but there's always a 1st
Vexual: not attempting is a valid method
asciilifeform: i aint aboutta insist
asciilifeform: if you dun think you have any biz reading these, you likely dont
Vexual: I should prolly dl all lessons now
asciilifeform: won't hurt
Vexual: although alf seems particularly insusceptible to webrot
asciilifeform intends to offer'em on dead tree at some pt
Vexual: `nubbins to print?
asciilifeform: print costs pennies
Vexual: not even joking
asciilifeform: less than e.g. pcb
asciilifeform routinely has apalling crud printed & hardbound , just to take to bed
asciilifeform: if i had a stove, could prolly stoke it for a winter or 2 with just these
asciilifeform: prolly w/ just the ffa-related junk , thinking about it.
Vexual finds it stanglely appalling alf don't have a fire
asciilifeform: Vexual: fireplaces aint standard equip here
asciilifeform: matchstick, recall, 'houses'
asciilifeform: some folx have'em (1970s and prior construction)
asciilifeform in conv. w/ brother : he: 'book out yet?' 'mine? nope' 'no, not yours. the chinese fellow's' 'which fellow' 'the 1 who is making career from yer www. you haven't found him just yet?'
Vexual: ch1 prolly more parsable than stan brother convo
asciilifeform: whats yer beef w/ch1 anyway ? 'too many letters'(tm)(r) ?
Vexual: just haven't had a good look yet
asciilifeform: wb ben_vulpes
Vexual: ayo ben
ben_vulpes: i am unpredictably woefully behind on logs
ben_vulpes: what is mp's "foundation mess"?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i can't speak for others, but my logs are pretty light
ben_vulpes regrets the question immediately
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i have nfi specifically. i imagine he expects some sorta instrument of surrender from jurov
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i suspect jurov also 'regretted question', lol
ben_vulpes: 'no ragrats', as we said when i was a bairn.
Vexual: hows the wee bairns?
ben_vulpes: i have a somewhat more prosaic question; i gather from questioning others in my wot that i should probably not consider mixing microcontrollers and NICs if i want something working in human time. asciilifeform; have ye commentary or insight to shed?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 'beefy' micros tend to come w/ internal nics
asciilifeform: pic32mz for instance.
asciilifeform: just needs pins brought out to transformer & jack
asciilifeform: afaik they dun have a Gb/s variant just nao. but marvell made 'pogo', did
asciilifeform: never was able to source the latter in bobbins tho
asciilifeform: never found 1 that didn't rely on dma tho, in any micro variant
Vexual: set the problem in clear human form if you please
asciilifeform: ( at least, unlike the pc crapola, they do publish their init specs , tho..)
ben_vulpes: frankly i'm so behind the curve on this aspect of my education that i think i'm better off snipping complexity aggressively and reintroducing it selectively as i find compelling cases
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: are you even 100% certain that you need ethernet ?
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: no!
ben_vulpes: Vexual: well there's an effector, and i need to get it commands.
asciilifeform: wainot e.g. rs485.
asciilifeform: or ye olde rs232, a la fg.
ben_vulpes: other nodes said 'uart'
asciilifeform: there's yer uart.
ben_vulpes: naively, "i'm going to have to network them eventually" "dummy, focus on making something first"
asciilifeform: make 1st.
Vexual: ie, hardware solution
asciilifeform: then get bogged down in protocol sads.
asciilifeform: could spend fucking ~year implementing e.g. even usb1. i did...
ben_vulpes: which leads me to my second question for asciilifeform tonight; have you blessed a 'microcontroller board' for use with ada? what remains of my sense of honor from the first republic recoils at the notion of "simply compiling c or rust" for use with the common-or-garden boards on the market.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i'm partial to pic32 series , cuz simple instr set
asciilifeform: have a half-done gnat for one of'em, even
asciilifeform: fucking hate, otoh, arm
asciilifeform: with, what , 700+ instrs & counting
asciilifeform: try an' implement a working arm.
asciilifeform: whereas mips fits in e.g. 'ice40' fpga & leaves room.
asciilifeform: ( this for 'fits in head' + for say , when you can't source the ic anymoar.. )
asciilifeform: before you laff, this ~happend~ to the mc68k aficionados
asciilifeform: from 1 of world's most common cpu archs, to 'where do i buy even old one?'
asciilifeform: iirc BingoBoingo personally was hit by this
ben_vulpes: high level i need something that eats from uart and shits to same (albeit different pins) and that's ~it
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: also smoked museum pieces generating rsa keys
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: crib from fg src then
asciilifeform: see earlier link.
asciilifeform: thing shits to uart all day, erry day...
asciilifeform: gens own baud clock too
asciilifeform realizes that his handmade proto-FG is possibly the longest contin.-powered piece of gear in his torture room...
Vexual: not for sale any more tho
ben_vulpes should know better. goes to castle alfenstein for advice on running ada on small chips of computronium; leaves with conundrum of 'should ams reorient face and mind and butt towards fpga?'
asciilifeform: Vexual: the folx who bought up the junkyard still selling , last i knew
asciilifeform: Vexual: if yer short 1, talk to'em
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: depends what yer doing!
asciilifeform: if contin. to stay 'silent like partizan', will get shite advice, what can do
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: if yer in a dire hurry, ave1's gnat builds a raw-mips gcc w/ 1 ln of config change
ben_vulpes: need to eat some amount of serial data defining a pair of coords and then shit those coords out on another serial port; it's nigh trivial. would like, however, to use this as an autodidactic and toolchain prototyping exercise for more devices in the same vein.
asciilifeform: you'll have to sit down w/ the datashit for yer chip and make defs of 'volatiles' for the particular registers etc tho
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: if that -- than straight to fpga.
asciilifeform: is what e.g. FG does.
Vexual: how far texas to dc?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: ice40 demo for instance
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: ~20 $ board .
asciilifeform: fits small cpu. and maybe 35 FG's...
ben_vulpes: heh this is ultimate 'rtos'
asciilifeform: open ('opensores') toolchain, unlike xilinx's
asciilifeform: iirc demands py3, but was the only headache there
asciilifeform: indeed, it dun get anymore 'realtime'
asciilifeform: can get deterministic delays pin to pin measured in nsec
ben_vulpes: how would you start analyzing tradeoff of 'high level lang' a la ada vs i don't even know what the upside to biting off fpga toolchain is
asciilifeform: there's an obv upside to fpga
asciilifeform: -- that it aint a von neumann comp, no 'interrupts', 'crashes'
asciilifeform: it either worx , approx., or doesn't
asciilifeform: for 'box takes N bits, gives M other bits, in S millisec, in 30loc' it's straight to fpga.
ben_vulpes: determinism and fistinhead the largest wins from fpga?
asciilifeform: that + that you're cured of vendor dependence, in principle can go to tmsc an' get it siliconized, nao or in 2030
asciilifeform: and it'll run
asciilifeform: whether you can get away w/ fpgaism depends intimately on what yer thing needs to do to those N bits to make those M
asciilifeform: if it's a coupla shifts, adds, xor's -- yes. if it's rsa, prolly not
asciilifeform: ( i couldn't find fpga that'd hold a 4096b barrel shifter for any amt of money )
asciilifeform: and prices go from penny to 100k$+
ben_vulpes: thorny problem
asciilifeform: depends on # of gates
ben_vulpes: in what situations do 'microcontrollers' win?
ben_vulpes: or put another way, what advantages do they have over fpga work?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: when you have existing coad for conventional-style comp, for instance
asciilifeform: e.g. ffa
asciilifeform: when you dun care how many nsec from pin to pin
asciilifeform: when you want item to cost 10cents rather than 10bux
asciilifeform: (micros are vastly cheaper per 'horse')
asciilifeform: when you want to plant linux on the box
asciilifeform: most folx take micro over fpga, even when it dun make logical sense
asciilifeform: lotsa 'programmer' types are phobic of circuit design
asciilifeform: (even when req's 0 solder)
asciilifeform: i've found flashlights w/ 8bit micros in'em.
ben_vulpes: it's all just maffs, i dun understand the hesitation
Vexual: time not important
asciilifeform: well, if yer running at multiple Mhz, then have to care re gate delays, for instance
ben_vulpes: i'm going to focus on the effector controller for now
asciilifeform: have to open (gasp) a b00k, and find outwhat 'domain crossing' is. and so on
Vexual: dead tree ftw
ben_vulpes: i dunno that i'm necessarily phobic of 'circuit design', but i am certainly wary of getting ratholed in technological duck cunts. one of the compelling ideologies from the first republic was 'tear their arms off and beat them to death with 'em'
ben_vulpes: there's no chip getting made sans a windows toolchain, neh? attempting else is tilting
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 1 of the appeals is that's it's a shallow hole.
asciilifeform: i've made 0 chip, but have fpgaisms on desk right nao w/ 0 winblowz in the loop anywhere.
ben_vulpes: you say 'shallow hole' in one breath and 'book and domain crossing' in another
Vexual: my word you cunts clack fast
Vexual: smokin keyboards is it wot
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: e.g. FG's controller (albeit w/ evil turdware toolchain for linux, then, for xilinx) from mp's prodding to production in <8wks
asciilifeform: there's ~0 concept of 'debug' tho, in fpgaism. you can simulate, or prod the chip w/ oscope, but very little in between
asciilifeform: so most of work is to actually think when you write.
ben_vulpes: yes yes
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: how much had you in your head before?
asciilifeform: the serpent demo is good intro, there is link re what the c & ada proggies looked like, and then how it was simmed, and inputs/outputs
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 0
ben_vulpes: i disberieve
asciilifeform: i guess not quite 0, knew what iwanted the thing to do. but presumably you also know for yours
asciilifeform: observe that you can simulate w/out buying any physicals
asciilifeform: as pictured in linked piece.
ben_vulpes: my physicals woes aren't 20 fpga chips, but good to know
ben_vulpes: fuuuuuck but open source cad is bad.
asciilifeform: right, presumably you already own whatever shits an' eats those signals
ben_vulpes: right, servo libary grows day by day.
ben_vulpes hopes to avoid 'silent like partizan', but mustest exercise a skosh of discretion.
asciilifeform: this btw is another + of fpgaism. can simulate 'to nanosecond'. for afaik 0 micro is this avail. (tho some vendors offer turdware for $$$)
ben_vulpes: notrly a design goal; not shooting for high speed cnc here
Vexual: not cnc we get it. what is it?
asciilifeform: for e.g. rocket vanes, need within mSec . for pu pit implosion detonator, within 100nsec. (hey it worked in '40s, they had no fpga..)
ben_vulpes: and this is why i'm putting in the time to think and ask; i'm still putting bounds on the problems and what tools get me how far along which trajectories.
asciilifeform: put, put
Vexual: peek. poke
asciilifeform: 1c of proper bounds is worth megabux of 'let's do!1111'
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: you jinxed the selector kludge
ben_vulpes: i lost my first-republic-era workstation to precisely "the minute you try `emerge --sync`..."
asciilifeform: plox to regen that link
ben_vulpes: fascinating
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the js kludge loses the link if you click outside of the sel
ben_vulpes: just saw same
ben_vulpes: fucking www is the penultimate duck cunt. will eat entire humans alive effecting the most trivial shit.
Vexual: seriously, i wanna sell benalf kbs.
asciilifeform: ( mp, of all people, actually 1 time wrote a server-side selector thing , but it dun work w/ indiv. lines of coad in <pre>... so i cant use.. )
ben_vulpes: Vexual: "ergodox ez"
Vexual: really?
asciilifeform: Vexual: 'model f'
Vexual: fuck that
Vexual goes to lok
ben_vulpes: i have a reproduction of that on order
asciilifeform: ugh the 1 w/out the f keys ?
asciilifeform: i've the proper 122k.
ben_vulpes: my generation is poor, we've done this thread to death in the old wankpublic, can skip this time
asciilifeform: ( sadly can't buy'em anymoar, even heavily beaten ones. and mine i had to not only clean, but... paint, lol )
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: dunno, i spend ~100 $. and most of it was for paint.
asciilifeform: in particular the conductive anti-rf paint aint cheap
asciilifeform: prettysure yer 'ergo' cost > .
ben_vulpes: i'll buy time
ben_vulpes: ergo buys me time in pilot seat; without something of this shape i'm done with this line of work in another five years
asciilifeform: strangely i never have this prob
asciilifeform: lotsa folx for somereason do tho
ben_vulpes: i envy you!
ben_vulpes: rat is the sole point of pain; maginificently bad after a day of cad
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i bought phf's sphere thing
asciilifeform: worx wonderz for 'rat arm'
ben_vulpes: "can you open this jar for me lover?" "i mean i can but i really don't want do" "what do you mean?" "well i'm entirely strong enough but the wrist is aflame and i don't need more accrued damage"
ben_vulpes: the radius is so large that i found it caused just as much pain
ben_vulpes: and the scroll ergonomics are utterly impossible
ben_vulpes: drag and drop is pointless too
asciilifeform: hm you tried that very ball ?
asciilifeform: dunno, worx for me. even for cad.
asciilifeform: ifyer wrist is this nuked, maybe try wacom.
ben_vulpes: mine, i admit, does not have scroll
ben_vulpes: so click, drag
asciilifeform: aa i got the 1 phf recced, w/ the roller
asciilifeform: smoothest scroll knob ever saw
ben_vulpes: somehow missed memo on this
asciilifeform: literally like vernier on leica microscope
asciilifeform: will almost turn if you blow on it
ben_vulpes: oh don't be ridiculous
asciilifeform: the ball, similar
Vexual: precision is invaluable
asciilifeform: mine is set so that 360deg of ball goes across 4 lcd (~8000 pixel)
asciilifeform: rec to turn off 'mouse acceleration' in x11
asciilifeform: and holyfuq, i cant even picture trying to use 1 of these w/out the wheel
asciilifeform: i think fingers would get gangrene
ben_vulpes: this was my mistake, yes
Vexual: best trackball hasnt been invented yet
asciilifeform: try the proper item
ben_vulpes: cst meanwhile out of business
asciilifeform takes off hat
asciilifeform: i'd bet there's still on shelf somewhere tho.
ben_vulpes: "pi engineering" now owns the brand, is out of stock on everything interesting
asciilifeform: 'ebay' then
ben_vulpes: it was a brilliant piece of hardware, simply could not tolerate life without a scroll wheel
ben_vulpes: thought placement was remarkably stupid on far side of ball, but asciilifeform attests otherwise?
asciilifeform: mine's symmetric
ben_vulpes: on far side from torso
asciilifeform: the wheel turned w/ index or ring finger
asciilifeform: i also like that (unlike in most mice) it doesn't double as 3rd button
asciilifeform: (button -- physically separate)
asciilifeform: also has 2 jacks for standard (3.5mm mono) pedals
asciilifeform: Vexual: i gotta admit, i ~never look at these
asciilifeform: ( typically i'm on a box w/out audio card, lol )
Vexual: no new info alf
Vexual: i'm quite content talking to myself
Vexual: right?
ben_vulpes: jurov: please to report in re "tbf mess"; don't hold luls in abeyance
ben_vulpes off to mull this fpga knot-cut
Vexual: mullaway brother
asciilifeform: nighty ben_vulpes
asciilifeform also off soon
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