asciilifeform: ( dun mean they'll buy, could easily be engulfed by pantsuit lymphocytes and remain 'unhappened' , sure )
asciilifeform: they didn't line up to buy FG.. ( it dun scratch any heathen itches ) whereas this item potentially does scratch, as i understand
mircea_popescu: ie, they'll buy your used underwear to wear on head just as well.
mircea_popescu: if experience is any guide, heathens do not buy by rational criteria.
asciilifeform: also worth noting that it's an item heathens might actually buy.
mircea_popescu: but it seems, at least to my dumb eye of today, kinda going the wrong way.
mircea_popescu: i don't expect it'd be a bad thing to have. it's certainly way the fuck more than the whole "market" of the whole "security industry" slash barn.
asciilifeform: i was thinking moar along the lines of 'pistol that fires erry other round backwards is worse than a good knife'
asciilifeform: ( an iron rsatron would remove some of the need for fast / low-mem ciphration, but imho not all )
asciilifeform: but it doesn't. recall the orig symmetric thread.
asciilifeform: it wins, theoretically, machine that can be locked/transported .
mircea_popescu: now, maybe after eulora's run for a half decade, and there's ACTUAL ~publshed~ research by ACTUAL humans re its strength, THEN i can revisit this discussion from a different hand
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i suspect that there will not be a 'civilized' symmetric cipher, i.e. item with less voodoo flavour to it than 'serpent'
asciilifeform: then it aint a fully volatile ciphertron tho. good % of the appeal, from my pov, was that it loses key if unplugged, and has no squirrelholes to somehow inadvertently retain key bits when off.
mircea_popescu: these are not by any means same calibre problems
asciilifeform: yer gonna hammer in a 4096 bit key erry time you uncork the thing ?
mircea_popescu: but then could rsa!
asciilifeform: as in, with 4096b ( really you want double of this, given how modexp works ) arithmetizer block in the fabric ?
asciilifeform: not even the $1k xilinx'en.
asciilifeform: funnily enuff i dun know of a single commercial/heathendom fpga that could house something of this size.
mircea_popescu: so listen, you actually see no merit in the "4096 byte crypto fpgas" ?
asciilifeform: this was actually mircea_popescu's idea, originally, it was orig part of the cardano cocktail.
asciilifeform: you have a box, that presents as e.g. usb drive on 'red' end, and eats a e.g. sd card on 'black' end, with a thing between the two that serpents and unserpents (how to key it, is a separate conversation, but it can be keyed sanely so long as it is done not from pc end )
mircea_popescu: because then we'd have baked sane hardware for it.
asciilifeform: ( existing schemes resembling this are retarded primarily because they have luser enter key via pc kbd , and secondarily because they all married to aes )
asciilifeform: in fact you would specifically not want any aspect of it visible to the pc.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 22:14 asciilifeform: ( for the l0gz : from asciilifeform's pov, 'sane disk crypter' is an item that gets keyed via onboard keyboard jack, e.g. serpents, the attached disk, and unkeyed when powered off or at the closing of a contact attached to $whatever )
asciilifeform: ( why usb2sd chinesium, and not the usual 'usb microcontroller' ? cuz it has the 'mass storage' stack hairball in mask rom, and not reprogrammable... )
asciilifeform: upstack -- ran into stack of these 'papers' when cleaning out crud, from 2yr ago when asciilifeform thought 'could make simple ciphered disk from usb2sd chip <-> ice40 <-> sdcard ' )
mircea_popescu: the behaviour is painting-indistinct. "yellow houses aren't the most fashionable". the discussion is house-building, not "yellow house making"
asciilifeform: mostly indian/chinese d00dz embedded in usg.academitardia, doin' their india thing.
asciilifeform: faux-fpga-worx aint exactly the most fashionable scamolas, we're looking at obscure, vs 'sexy', frauds.
asciilifeform: in this case it's simple madoff fraud, imho, rather than any sort of peculiar freudism. i.e. simple 'we lied for moneys and dun wanna to jail'
mircea_popescu: obviously dood, the mainstay of adolescentine wank fiction is the shame, the burning, unyielding SHAME of "if dad knew would prolly a) laugh ass off and b) cut pecker off, "useless anyway".
asciilifeform: i expect academitards-with-seekric-sauce are 98% 'if i published, errybody will know that it never worked', 1% 'if i published, errybody will know that it consists of ripped off old open sores' ( personally met one of these ! ) , and 1% 'it worx and we're gonna patent!111 and getrichquick' , bolix-whisperer style ( i have no direct evidence that these exist, but some indirect clues )
asciilifeform: ( 'electric' serpent is actually somewhat nontrivial, on acct of the gnarly 'key schedule' algo and the arrayed sboxes )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in re these lulz, at one point asciilifeform dug for 'anybody ever verilog-ified serpent?' and found a stack of 'papers'. any src ? mno. but plenty of 'discussion' of supposed 'implementation', in the traditional nadia henninger style .
a111: Logged on 2018-10-04 00:14 asciilifeform: i.e. unreplicable crapola where one'd have to catch the authors and connect'em to 220v to get the orig data, supposing it existed
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: modern academitard 'publishing' is usually of the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-04#1857920 sort
BingoBoingo: And looks like its time for mod6 to change another password
mircea_popescu has a good mind to edit all these people's graves, "here lies a schmuck, who published rien."
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/10/fbi-brings-in-their-bomb-hoax-patsy-florida-man/ << Qntra - FBI Brings In Their Bomb Hoax Patsy: Florida Man
BingoBoingo: Breaking: FBI has arrested their Patsy!
asciilifeform: ( trivial, but sadly needed. i have nfi why the standard one has the retarded block against pragma Pure )
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 01:03 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the secondary stack thing worx correctly in modern-day gnat. but i banned it. ( because it makes reading disasmed binariolade harder; reasoning about the semantics of the latter -- also harder; and consumes very scarce, on small embedded chips, memory , imho needlessly )
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 14:13 asciilifeform: btw did i ever discuss why i forbid the secondary stack ?
asciilifeform: ( for the n00bz/l0g-summarizers, likbez : http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835937 )
asciilifeform: it is even possible that they 'cheated' and passes System.Address's around, reverting to c monkeyism.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i happen to know that i'm not the only one who swore off secondarystack -- the 1990s space probes folx did also. but unsurprisingly they never published anyffing re how they filled the resulting cavity in functionality. ( at least they did not have to deal with linux kernel, afaik, ran on bare iron , so no To_C etc horrors )
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-26#1866278 -> ~every time I used String for anything more than constant value I regretted it somewhere down the line so I tend to converge on the same idea - it's just broken
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'patch' is not the applicable name for the required ragnarok. whole kernel is like this, 9000 layers deep.
mircea_popescu: there's no need to even HAVE this bullshit open() style. fixwidth path and that's it.
mircea_popescu: just fucking patch the kernel.
asciilifeform: to continue in these lulz : ada std has a 'bounded string' type, that superficially is defined as exactly how i wanted to do 'path' type earlier. but! but! if actually invoked, it -- for no logical reason afaik -- prevents the invoking package from being declared stateless ( i.e. pragma Pure ), and this propagates ad infinitum , to caller.
asciilifeform: ( bvt's point re inet_addr applies here -- the actual syscall in fact demands a tardstring, i.e. nulltermed )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-26#1866299 << whole point of spackling, 'rewrite' open(), mmap(), etc, to somehow satisfy the idjit kernel without permitting the retardation to leak upstream to own proggy
asciilifeform: i'd almost go so far as to specifically disrecommend study of the stock standardlib, it is actively bad for health
mircea_popescu: went "let's then compare alf's thing to this" ran away
asciilifeform: current gnat standard lib is a jawdropping zoo of broken shit. e.g didjaknow there is a sad bignum lib in there ?
asciilifeform: on top of this, i'm thinking all of this spackle, oughta be unified, the paths, open(), udpism, tempism, etc. and eventually rolled into tmsr.gnat .
a111: Logged on 2018-10-26 02:26 asciilifeform: my only remaining notion here is that possibly gotta implement a 'paths' lib ! i.e. would represent paths as arrays of permanently fixed length , 255 octets, iirc this is the max permitted on unixlikes.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-26 02:18 asciilifeform: my current hypothesis is that we're literally the only folx ever to bake static libs (i.e. in .gpr, for Library_Kind use "static"; ) .
asciilifeform: and errything else i've written worked a++ as them.
asciilifeform: 1 obvious solution, that iirc diana_coman at one point resorted to somewhere, is to discard the 'librariness' and make the thing a 'put this in your src' type of lib, rather than linkable one. but i ~like~ linkable/separately-compilable static libs.
asciilifeform: (i.e. does not properly plug the abstraction leak of unix idjicy, which is the whole point of the proggy)
asciilifeform: the external knobs ~must~ be made to work in http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/extOl/?raw=true style, somehow or other, or the thing opens gates of hell...
asciilifeform: tho even if it existed, and i had memmap package eat a FD that it shat out on instantiation, this would be stupefyingly ugly still, because then memmap cannot be a troo finalized type (i.e. one that cleans up entirely after itself on death, incl. closing its fd)
asciilifeform: the real enigma is, why the fuck gnat does not include an interface to ordinary unix open(), why is it that i gotta write it.
asciilifeform: the braindamage of unix open()'s demand for a null-termed string, percolates all the way up.
asciilifeform: liquishit all the day down...
asciilifeform: problem is that CPath : aliased C.Char_Array := C.To_C(Path); , in the glue, demands a String .
asciilifeform: so then could avoid String entirely.
asciilifeform: my only remaining notion here is that possibly gotta implement a 'paths' lib ! i.e. would represent paths as arrays of permanently fixed length , 255 octets, iirc this is the max permitted on unixlikes.
asciilifeform: and if it ain't available at birth, then it never gets set.
asciilifeform: in the old form, http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/ZkkVC/?raw=true , observe that for Obj'Address use Maps.Open(.... gotta be a static value, per https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gnat_rm/Address-Clauses.html ( logical )
asciilifeform: so then sat down and implemented it in http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/RJjFb/?raw=true form. however this cannot be made to go , because if MemMap package does not know the path at instantiation time, it cannot run,
asciilifeform: currently i'm in a zugzwang in re the mmap lib : the http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/extOl/?raw=true invocation form is The Right Thing, but it requires passing in a String for Path, which dun work without secondarystackism;
asciilifeform: my current hypothesis is that we're literally the only folx ever to bake static libs (i.e. in .gpr, for Library_Kind use "static"; ) .
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in gnat bugs : apparently ( and this is documented or mentioned nowhere ) : it is impossible to have a Ada.Finalization.Limited_Controlled type ANYWHERE inside a static library, unless it is generic all the way down (i.e. if the lib package is generic, any sub-packages must also be instantiated as generics )
trinque: indeed, I have all the tars necessary to build, will provide 'em
trinque: I could possibly have you a newer thing to try this weekend; that's the goal
asciilifeform: ( it takes most of a day to get to the barfpoint )
asciilifeform: nao this, i do not know, i have since taken the thing apart again ( was plugged into lappy )
trinque: that io error is the thing jumping out at me, of course
asciilifeform: it was pulled from zoolag the day before ( and not because sad, but to expand the latter to 1tb )
asciilifeform: gotta be sumthing on the remote (fetched from heathens?) end, iirc the old shot still had these
asciilifeform: trinque: the odd thing is that it's what i used to bake the s.mg cuntoo; worked, then
lobbesbot: trinque: Sent 3 days, 0 hours, and 36 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/dI29G/?raw=true << very peculiar barfology from existing ( same tarball i successfully used for s.mg box ) cuntoo. sat for 4 hrs, built both gcc's, etc., then ended with this.
lobbesbot: trinque: Sent 3 days, 9 hours, and 25 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> is http://trinque.org/2018/07/06/cuntoo-bootstrapper-preview/ still most recent cuntoo ? i got errything ready to bake cuntoo lappy ( the oddball lcd box; old ssd from zoolag ) ; should proceed or wait for update ? ty
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1866205 << goes great with the 'c glue' thread from earlier
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 20:47 Mocky: she works for army inteligence on the us base here. had to listen to 30 minutes of snoweden hatred
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 20:45 Mocky: apparently kuwait computers are shit and one chick knows another chick who runs "cyber security" for a kuwaiti / iraqi company, has been in there for 30 years, knows everyone in the biz. promised me a kuwaiti business sponsor if I actually know anything about computer security, put her number in my phone for me, and texted her to expect contact from me
Mocky: they eyes are closing, passing out in 3... 2..
Mocky: she works for army inteligence on the us base here. had to listen to 30 minutes of snoweden hatred
Mocky: told me how to get liquor there, that it's not 'dry' like it's claimed, lol
Mocky: apparently kuwait computers are shit and one chick knows another chick who runs "cyber security" for a kuwaiti / iraqi company, has been in there for 30 years, knows everyone in the biz. promised me a kuwaiti business sponsor if I actually know anything about computer security, put her number in my phone for me, and texted her to expect contact from me
a111: Logged on 2018-10-08 16:20 mircea_popescu: because no, the "i know ~exactly~ what the computer is doing" declaration is not optional. exactly like socrates' observation, "the man claiming no political system has political system", exactly so, whatever the claim, to run code on machine equals the declaration of having fully read and thoroughly understood. there's no wiggle room.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 19:10 asciilifeform: when you add compatibility spackle, serious reader is not saved from reading the thing you spackled over -- on the contrary nao he has to read the ~original~ rubbish ~plus~ your spackle, however much it weighs.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 18:59 bvt: well, i did not suggest learning/utilizing C api, on the contrary, a subset of kernel stuff in ada is the interesting thing. it just happens to be currently defined/documented as C code.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1866180 << this is approximately the work of re-writing eulora too.
asciilifeform: one thing to shit on an enemy's door step, deliberately, entirely other thing to shit errywhere because not realizing that shit -- stinks
asciilifeform: at the risk of repeating ancient thread -- 'the best machine is no machine', it weighs nuffin, needs no maintenance. and the best proggy, is no proggy at all, if a problem can be solved without writing proggy, it ought to be. erry line of coad can be rightfully pictured as an act of intellectual littering. y'know, like throwing cig butt or bottle on the ground in the park.
asciilifeform: when you add compatibility spackle, serious reader is not saved from reading the thing you spackled over -- on the contrary nao he has to read the ~original~ rubbish ~plus~ your spackle, however much it weighs.
asciilifeform: let's reformulate this way : we want the ~net~ complexity of the orchestra to decrease. if we cannot yet decrease ~net~, the Right Thing is to at least refrain from adding, when possible.
asciilifeform: but i aint particularly interested in 'improvement' that turns the 146 into 1460.
asciilifeform: if somebody can show how to do same in 100, or 10, i'ma read and sign the patch and take off my hat.
asciilifeform: ( and btw the actual amt of c spackle in udp lib , http://btcbase.org/patches/udp_fix_ip_nullchars/tree/udp/libudp/unix_udp.c , is 146 ln. )
asciilifeform: it is ~much~ easier to demonstrate the correctness of 600, no matter what else.
asciilifeform: for so long as we're stuck on a linux box, i'd rather spackle over the c-ism with 600 ln, than with 6000 .
asciilifeform: any spackle over the orig unix liquishit, is doomed to be ugly. so imho the smallest possible spackle that does the job, is Right Thing
asciilifeform: bvt: linux kernel is fundamentally retarded, it expects null-termed rubbish, at times, at other times, char * and length, not to mention a pile of untyped ptrs inside structs, really oughta eat ada structs , ada fixed strings, properly typed arrays, etc instead
bvt: well, i did not suggest learning/utilizing C api, on the contrary, a subset of kernel stuff in ada is the interesting thing. it just happens to be currently defined/documented as C code.
asciilifeform: otherwise why not just write 0xfbadf00d.... etc
asciilifeform: port it once per iron/os and then fughet it.
asciilifeform: really, the os-platforming crapola belongs inside gnat.
bvt: well, http://git.musl-libc.org/cgit/musl/tree/src/network/connect.c -- the structure is the same; digging is rather easy, if you don't look into glibc
asciilifeform: and .c is not the only os liquishit, tables of platform constants that one ends up with from avoidance of .c, is also liquishit.
asciilifeform: as by asciilifeform -- the pill which weighs the least, is the Right Thing, per http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1866148 , an absolute minimum , line for line, of os-specific liquishit, is the ticket.
asciilifeform: bvt: i do not know for a fact whether it eats same struct as the userland call, or different
asciilifeform: i'd luvv to see a syscall-tronic version of the udp transceiver thing, for instance.
mircea_popescu: i suspect noboduy's getting out of cataloguing the shit that easily, but we see.
asciilifeform: and when we get own os, can rip out the c immediately in favour of for CuntLips'Address use 16#FF00ABCD# device interface, etc.
asciilifeform: the obvious alternative to cataloguing the liquishit, is to let it stay in gnat's c frontend where it belongs, a la the udp.c thing.
mircea_popescu: eg, to ~everyone the above open, and stack and etc were surprises.
mircea_popescu: just as soon as we figure ouyt wtf they even are.
asciilifeform: ( also to stop the gcc5ism gangrene, but this is a close second )
asciilifeform: it's why it made sense to fork off gnat to begin with, so that these can be done.
asciilifeform: to keep 9000 mutant copies of these basic things is insanity
asciilifeform: imho in long term we really gotta move the compat layers liquishit out of individual projects and into tmsr-gnat
asciilifeform: bvt: maptron is actually done aside from the strings horror raised last night
bvt: but maybe, only the subset you need for mmaptron, for starters? full conversion is definitely not worth it
asciilifeform: rather than baking it into 1000 manyears
asciilifeform: bvt: imho it's wasted work; oughta have just enuff coad to interoperate with the pot of c liquishit while we still must
bvt: *these
bvt: the thing is, structure definitions and all sort of flag numbers appear in the libc via magic. having all this things in ada is possible, and would involve exactly same work that e.g. musl people are doing today
asciilifeform: sorta why i went ahead and stuck ALL of the os-dependent crud in udp lib into 1 .c
bvt: Ada.Sequential_IO is wired straight into fopen/fread/fwrite, by the way.
asciilifeform: bvt: they differ for same reason as tit sizes -- nobody ever standardized, so naturally varies
mircea_popescu: cuz it must be there, yes.
asciilifeform: the funny/sad bit is that this is ALREADY in gnat, for e.g. http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch8_randomism#L132 , but ~not exposed~ ! to user
asciilifeform: so any particular proggy can call e.g. open() with correct flaggisms, because it aint as if the gnat on the $box does not already know what os/iron it sits on.
asciilifeform: sorta what the orig authors lamely tried to do ( and mostly failed )
asciilifeform: the correct end of the funnel to plug, imho , would be a sane flags lib built ~into gnat~, and correct ~per gnat port~
asciilifeform: they aint a posixism
bvt: asciilifeform: re exotic flags -- sure. but i don't expect different results with syscall numbers as well. some subset will match, later in the table -- complete mess
asciilifeform: ( and from this we get to 'why didja not write the proggy in asm, if it only worx on linux 2.4 on mips ' etc )
asciilifeform: cuz it's either that or 1 v-branch per os/iron .
a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 15:25 asciilifeform: incidentally, https://www.adacore.com/gems/gem-59 apparently exists, tho i confess that i really dislike the idea of automatic converters for coad
asciilifeform: O_DIRECTORY might be a bitch in the fyootoor , i suppose
asciilifeform: bvt: i'm not surprised; but these dun affect anyffing i considered to be essential posix knob
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 14:52 mircea_popescu: up to you whether to make a dir or not ; eventually these will end up in that http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-23#1865314 -- but the only way that happens is if you try things and then productively disagree with people. i've nfi at the moment whether we do or we don't want single temp files in a tmp dir nevertheless, or anything else ; and i absolutely do not wish to ever do (or will ever permit anyone to) sit around and "think
bvt: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865825 << if you don't force the 'tempfiles ./tmp' scheme, i would much prefer to implement the 'temp. file in ./' variant. vpatch coming at latest tomorrow.
asciilifeform: i would've naively imagined that massive 'contrabass' like this would may as well include the uv lamp. but apparently didn't.
asciilifeform: there are not so many occasions when i hammer in key by hand.
mircea_popescu: not that much faster ; the padding helps speed, and familioarity also.
asciilifeform: goes smoother if you giv'em an 'autovon'-style keypad thing, instead of pc kbd
asciilifeform: typically they kept privkeys on hole-tape
asciilifeform: tho funnily enuff, in '80s su the standard method of burning ROMs was actually this box with keypad
asciilifeform: we kinda have these already
mircea_popescu: "in an attempt to simplify computing, alf brings you, the computer that can only be programmed by a computer."
mircea_popescu: the code writing for tyhis will need some real men.
asciilifeform: ( in '50s this was a best-selling 'ram' , but afaik nobody thought to de-rasterize it and make it the whole comp )
asciilifeform: for all i know, you could match 'z80' performance with simply modified cathode tube where the beam steers depending on what the state of the phosphor under it was, rather than moving in linear rasters.
mircea_popescu: yes, but there's no rule saying "useful processor eats kW". for all you know it eats mW. there's a lot of eV in a mW.
asciilifeform: ( and can have almost anyffing as the core, even vacuum, all transformers saturate )
asciilifeform: ( for n00bz re earlier -- magnetic logic is based on the fact that a transformer core can 'saturate'. ergo you can bake a 'nand' simply from transformer with three windings.
asciilifeform: not even speaking of intelisms -- if you can't remove heat at the rate it is produced by resistance -- you get magic smoke, no matter how you cut it
mircea_popescu: it's not clear to me the high power intelisms are ab solute necessity.
asciilifeform: btw -- and iirc we had the thread -- there are even deeper crackpotteries potentially in the mix : it is possible to have strictly magnetic logic, without semiconductor. if can simply etch fine metal mask, interleaved with insulator, potentially can have a kind of slow 'z80' from miniature toroid logic (as seen in '60s su)
asciilifeform: you want an end product that conducts thermally as well as electrically, or you get a lighter.
asciilifeform: the harder part might be ~conducting~ tracks -- would need sumthing that can be moved electrophoretically (i.e. ionic) but then somehow fuse into metallic conductor.
asciilifeform: picture two planar gels (or whatever carrier medium) at orthogonal to one another, meeting in a thin line. the 'vertical' plane is yer 'print head', containing single steerable 'column' of $ion; the 'horizontal' is yer 'paper'.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re 'ion pump' upstack , in olden days when asciilifeform worked as academi-grunt in a bio lab, did many long hours of snore at electrophoretic 'blots', where chromatographic rubbish moves along a gel. and thought 'why not bake ic this day, what if you give it 2nd axis to steer the current' etc
asciilifeform: entirely. like the 19th c lumped approximation to maxwell's equations.
mircea_popescu: the medieval notion ("fleas spontaneously generate from filth") was not biologically correct, but mechanically quite adequate.
asciilifeform: ( generally if you do it in the part of town where the garages and meth labs are, you dun have usg.problems, at least not immediately )
mircea_popescu: it's fine for i suppose a fifteen year old, though if it carries into the next year there's already mild retardation involved.
mircea_popescu: menalone and their problems, who cares.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: regularly there's word from some d00d who actually bought surplus gear ( see e.g. linked thread ) and 'omfg, i made a diode!' , typically as far as they get ( and it wasn't even because usg.dhs came for his flourine , afaik it did not )
mircea_popescu: incidentally -- there's a very strong link between http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865962 (ie, the naive expectation that money buys you good in reich) and the question of... why doesn't alf have elemental fluorine in his house ? "well, he doesn't want it" "suppose he did ?" "then he'd have to get authorization, like the plants do" "you mean... buy toyota ?" "eeexactly".
asciilifeform: in '80s folx briefly made , then somehow evaporated.
mircea_popescu: maybe the trick is to make 6-connected cubic matrix and burn away connexions via ion pump or similar.
asciilifeform: that's part of what makes the trad process cost what it does, yes
mircea_popescu: incidentally... there's all these LAYERS, because we're essentially making books, ie, 3d object out of 2d implementations
asciilifeform: imho the classical fab is an overwhelmingly incatronic tech, it centralizes unhealthily.
asciilifeform: presently i have nfi whether this is physically possible, or how in particular -- could be fpga-like device where somehow the components actually ~move~ into position ; or sumthing where you can optically burn away the unused tracks through 'window' ; or some yet entirely unknown trick.
a111: Logged on 2018-04-30 16:16 asciilifeform: ( for the sake of thread-completeness, what would the ~alternative~ to this story look like? i suggest -- it'd be a process which does to ic fab what 'polaroid' process did to colour photography. find way of etching the circuit from prefab 'sandwich' without caustic baths, sputtering, etc... )
mircea_popescu: certainly nowhere near the advertised.
mircea_popescu: in this sense "earth always wins -- eventually gold's out and then you leave".
asciilifeform: and evidently even mircea_popescu's supply of screaming + patience was finite, the argentines ended up curing him of further attempts, not he -- them
mircea_popescu: i suppose it's the intent. leaks like a sieve, not like i don't get done precisely what i want. it takes some screaming, which i got a large store of.
asciilifeform: orig su version of zek fence was the simplistic 'may not go to foreign devil lands'; modern-day reich's is the moar 'advanced', 'looksy but no touchsy' variant.
a111: Logged on 2017-10-31 15:15 asciilifeform: whole thing quite resembles the 'silver coin glued to the asphalt' everyone encounters in childhood
asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform is not labouring under delusion , however, that 'if only they sold, i could be sitting in $50k mircea_popescu-grade castle', prolly mitsubishi would own'em all )
mircea_popescu: of course, it's EMINENTLY for sale if usg.pantsuit wants it. just oyu know, god forbid any leak in the http://trilema.com/2014/in-which-you-become-grain/ process threatens to spring.
asciilifeform: ( even if half-castle owner is willing to sell, it gotta be to ~another~ orc )
asciilifeform: there was yet another level of idjicy in ro, that i discovered, where they won't sell the shit to foreigners
asciilifeform: d00d commissions a 5-story hruscheba-castle in the middle of fucking wasteland. he's bankrupt the second he signs the paper, whether he doubles down later and goes broke-er or not, neh
mircea_popescu: and this also speaks volumes as to the superiority of the 90s -- i personaly bought hruscheba apts in mining-zone-being-abandoned for color tvs and such expedients.
mircea_popescu: there is no such thing as "baken in" idiocy. idiocy is always actively maintained. in fact, idiocy is both the ultimate and the only http://trilema.com/2009/inchipuiti-va/ item.
asciilifeform: when you haven't with what to pay the whole invoice, or anyone who might ever wish to buy it for even 1% of what it cost
mircea_popescu: without this -- it's communism, admitted or not. either money works, or else it does not.
asciilifeform: at some point he gives up guarding it, as it costs sumthing, and the gypsies move in, i suppose this can be seen as a form of 'sell'
mircea_popescu: this is the argument against "indepenent owners" among the orcs, too, and in general -- they'll do insane things like keep property 10% occupied for $pricepoint, and ignore that $pricepoint * .1 comes to less net than $half-pricepoint * .6
asciilifeform: i thought it was 'idjit commissioned build without checking whether he has the whole sum'
asciilifeform: ( see, if you pay with money, the poor fuck manning the desk makes 0 , he only makes if you pay interest )
mircea_popescu: (incidentally, the recurrent "ban shorts" nonsense is all about this -- the fundamental pantsuit promise is that "no one should ever have to go through the above". which, of course, is how they wrecked the marketplace.)
mircea_popescu: buncha retailers in their own mind.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform suppose he lowers the tail and rolls over. "this is the inventory, please, take some, take any, for any price, save my chitlins, my wife's going mad with the hunger moans of the chitlins!!!"
asciilifeform: they mostly deal with ~broke orcs, neh. who walk in and 'i want 'buy' house, but i have no money'
mircea_popescu: anyway, if i for some reason walk into dnc office odds are stupid fat woman will similarly misbehave ; and the "bitch, i diselected your ur-whore" isn't gonna happen there more than in messipissland.
asciilifeform: well if not then how is the dealer to know that yer payment-capable, without 'assess'. or do i misperceive what that meant
mircea_popescu: (the spanish reference comes from a famous incident in argentina where mp was trying to buy real estate, and idiot woman at desk's idea of the process was that she's now going to "assess" me. that blew up spectacularily if predictably.)
mircea_popescu: and i do not mean that in the negative, art all. literally, let them try, get to know us, figure things out, break their "assesorando" toolchain in the process....
mircea_popescu: republic "can be fleeced" far in excess of their parent company's hallucinatory "market valuation". let them try.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 05:10 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865735 << i took a stab at this 2y ago, was very frustrating on acct of asic-baking not being a 'cash and carry' process like e.g. pcb-baking, but a heavily meat-powered affair where the derps want to 'get to know you' to figure out how much they can fleece
BingoBoingo: Well, we could always try seeing how the Chicoms price modern Z80 implemented in cultured pig neurons
asciilifeform: diff in resilience of meat, and in the toughest worx of man, is much greater than e.g. speed diff between jet fighter and ox cart
a111: Logged on 2018-10-18 23:27 asciilifeform: nobody's ever built anyffin with even close to the noise tolerance of meat.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, this bitmistake/milcost is the exact reason human genome is some % garbage.
asciilifeform: and the mistake can be in anyffing, incl. a physical interaction between unrelated components that you did not know were possible.
BingoBoingo: Kinda suggests the 2+3 option seems like it could be had sooner than a neutral field of gates FPGA
asciilifeform: iirc we had a thread re 'ic is deeply incatronic tech' hypothesis
asciilifeform: the plant gets ruinously costlier, per erry 'shrunk nanometre', and somehow gotta be amortized, and the competition gets thinner an' thinner
asciilifeform: imho the race for 'smallest transistor' has been a disaster of incaization -- in '70s there were thousands of ic makers, in '80s -- hundreds, in '90s -- dozens, today maybe 10 .
mircea_popescu: moreover, very 1820s steam engine airs hang about the entire barn
asciilifeform: it is at the level of 18th c. cannon-forging, roughly. erry house has 'seekrit sauce'.
asciilifeform: the actual physical procedure of baking the ic is not as standardized as i previously (to last thread) thought.
asciilifeform: btw the reason, afaik, why erry fab house forces 'standard cells', is that they have proprietary tweaks to their process , and have lib of cells ( kept seekrit ) that are known to work with said process.
asciilifeform: and their magnitude will depend, i also suspect, on how well he plays his cards.
asciilifeform: the exact figs can only be obtained by a cn-speaking emissary, i suspect.
mircea_popescu: are you saying the reeval cycle is too tight ?