Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2018-10-24 | 2018-10-26 → ↓
a111: Logged on 2018-10-23 13:44 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-23#1865312 << ideally we oughta bake the new one, with ice40 & scintillator, imho
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-23#1865364 << might be, actually. wanna price a minimal and a reasonable asic run ?
a111: Logged on 2018-10-23 14:09 asciilifeform: if this were a bake-by-the-thousands product, we could bake asic. but currently this is not realistic imho
mircea_popescu: not wasted effort even if we don't end up baking it, logs will reflect a dated pricepoint, which is soemthing.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-23#1865373 << and register = 4096 bits, of course. yup.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-23 14:19 asciilifeform: i'ma describe , for the l0gz : ideal cpu for crypto would be something quite like the schoolbook mips.v -- no cache, no branch prediction, no pipeline, no dram controller (run off sram strictly), a set of large regs for multiply-shift , and dedicated pipe to FG (i.e. have single-instruction that fills a register with entropy )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-23#1865384 << i confess i don't understand what's being authenticated.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-23 15:57 asciilifeform: i'ma let mircea_popescu ponder whether this kind of thing is worth doing
mircea_popescu: what, the supposed interloper can't hash is the idea ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-23#1865401 << this is perennial wank in the style of "not a true church" etc. xtian minds at work.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-23 17:11 asciilifeform: ( nao i'm curious, what, by d00d's lights, is 'full node', and where might one get such a thing )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865742 << diddled cable, port, etc would not know the on-chip salt.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 04:57 mircea_popescu: what, the supposed interloper can't hash is the idea ?
asciilifeform: ( operator of box -- knows, it'd come printed on box, uniq per unit )
asciilifeform: prolly not worth the bother, but in principle solid imho
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865735 << i took a stab at this 2y ago, was very frustrating on acct of asic-baking not being a 'cash and carry' process like e.g. pcb-baking, but a heavily meat-powered affair where the derps want to 'get to know you' to figure out how much they can fleece
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 04:50 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-23#1865364 << might be, actually. wanna price a minimal and a reasonable asic run ?
asciilifeform: there's a coupla 'small scale' fabs, but on close examination smell like ripoff, they ship with literally 0 guarantee of yield , and in laughable qty , and with laughable transistor count, and -- to add insult to injury -- die packaging not included, you gotta somehow find someone to do it, somewhere
asciilifeform: granted in past 2y since i last looked, the mythical beast of 'small fab' could have been born
asciilifeform: ( i omit to mention ~large~ fabs, given as if you aint representing a large and known $$$ concern, they dun even return calls )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865738 << 8192 , if can be fit, then can have 4096b rsa without 'bignum', lol
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 04:54 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-23#1865373 << and register = 4096 bits, of course. yup.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so let them get to know you ; nothing wrong with derps hearing of the most serene republic.
mircea_popescu: re-doing this every few years seems eminently 'dammi tempu ca ti perciu'.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-23#1865505 << likely someone's "creative" "altcoin"/"ico"/whatever reusing satoshi codebase and incorrectly isolating itself.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-23 22:30 asciilifeform: defo seems to be a misconfigured/maliciously-configged shitfork noad, none of the tx hashes in the inv's line up with anything from human planet
mircea_popescu: o wait...
deedbot: http://bimbo.club/?p=65 << Bimbo.Club - TMSR Log Summary - 10/20/2018
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865729 -> ugh; I think I might have even seen this at some point before but I did not investigate it
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 01:26 asciilifeform: previously , from last 2+yrs of reading docs, i laboured under the impression that the only process that demands secondary stack, is ~returning~ variably-lengthed objects. rather than simply passing'em forward as 'in' param. which in erry context OTHER than generic, worx .
a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 14:15 asciilifeform: the .c absolutely gotta be bug-free tho, or it sinks yer whole proggy
a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 16:03 asciilifeform: bvt: on contemplation, i'm thinking possibly mips should simply get own v-branch, if we ever actually get hold of a mips.
mircea_popescu: portability via vtree rather than ifdefs/wrappers/etc.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-24#1865587 << sad way to go through life ; but then again bulgarians thought "byzantine is best" way into 1200s.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 16:57 Mocky: unrelatedly, the miami in these filipinas and africans is off the fucking charts. they literally cannot sniff even a whiff of 'america aint that great' without spitting out 'america is the best, how could you even think it's not'
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-24#1865590 << one time, a moron/filipina/african/whatever got $500 together, and in preference of buying indoor plumbing, or a gf/goat/whatever, bought miami ticket. once there, discovered it sucks terribly. first impulse was to leave a very scathingly honest review on miami.yelp ; but in the 18 minutes the page took to load (hurray for "modern" ux2.0 pid eins!) they changed their mind, left ver
a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 16:58 Mocky: no dude, they have fambly there who love it. they would love too!
mircea_popescu: y flattering review instead.
mircea_popescu: "if i tell truth -- moron cousins back home laugh at me ; if i tell lie, they also come over -- i laugh at them."
mircea_popescu: there's a reason crabs never discover zanzibar and nigerians in a pot never get out. the reason is -- THAT VERY FAMBLY.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-24#1865605 << i wouldn't send him supplies he doesn't ask for. let the man actually do something useful.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 17:09 asciilifeform: it is my understanding that you'll need a postbox to open company, pretty much anywhere, regardless
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-24#1865631 << females will be negative to betas and "curious" to alpha irrespective what they say.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 17:57 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: nao i'm curious, how do they typically respond
mircea_popescu: "Intelligible and Unitelligable" << bwahaha. it's still unintelligible, what, the root changes if you derive it ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-24#1865674 << you're too focused on this "node is a battleship" pov. nodes ocme in herds, they're zerglings not protoss.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 18:45 asciilifeform: mod6: in fact, and iirc i discussed this 2y or so ago in the l0g, by my current understanding of the reorg mechanism, it is possible to wedge ~any~ noad by throwing a specially- 'retro'-mined block with a higher work delta than the 'genuine' one at a particular point. then reorg dun trigger at all.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 19:57 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-23#1865503 << i threw your patch on btcbase, it looks good, though i'm not sure i agree with the decision to put temp file in /tmp. the point of putting it in same hierarchy as press, was to avoid the whole cross-file-system issue
mircea_popescu: IF your program puts something in /tmp, your . is /, and live with that (i for instance will never sign such a monstrosity, unless it's the os/kernel itself)
mircea_popescu: put stuff in ./tmp like sane ppl instead wtf.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-24#1865707 << ./tmp is the "cannonical" place for putting "temporary" files ; but only in the sense that ./<label> is the place one'd expect <label> files to end up. it's only cannonical in the sense of cockblocking idiotic unixisms and other moronnicals.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 20:28 phf: i think it's an open question for the logs, whether or not /tmp is canonical place for putting temporary files, and whether or not writing a copy of what's being pressed in some arbitrary place (for all practical purposes) is a good idea
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865731 << this is actually pretty dubious. where internally ?
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 01:28 asciilifeform: ( how ran into this : sneak preview of mmap demo : http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/VDYWv/?raw=true << path is set cleanly, as part of the generic invocation. but turns out this dun work (unless secondarystackism is enabled) , as somewhere internally it tries to ~return~ the string
bvt: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-24#1865707 << i see a point re not writing above ./; will reimplement using ./tmp.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 20:28 phf: i think it's an open question for the logs, whether or not /tmp is canonical place for putting temporary files, and whether or not writing a copy of what's being pressed in some arbitrary place (for all practical purposes) is a good idea
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 08:32 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-24#1865690 << can not put files above . !
bvt: given that there is a single temporary file -- would ./ also work? ./tmp directory would have to be separately created and removed, and the less unix fs is touched, the better, i guess.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865782 << dun matter if yer an admiral, or emperor, you got 1 arse. the node you ~generate~ tx on, ~is~ a battleship.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 08:30 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-24#1865674 << you're too focused on this "node is a battleship" pov. nodes ocme in herds, they're zerglings not protoss.
asciilifeform: not to mention that even 'soldier' noad, is not actually cheap, costs like horse not like goat. ( considering that you want ssd, something like a respectable net pipe, uninterrupted current, distance from mordor, if available, etc )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865788 << separated '/tmp' is not imho entirely worthless, i've set up boxen where it lives in ramdisk, where imho it belongs
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 08:35 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-24#1865707 << ./tmp is the "cannonical" place for putting "temporary" files ; but only in the sense that ./<label> is the place one'd expect <label> files to end up. it's only cannonical in the sense of cockblocking idiotic unixisms and other moronnicals.
asciilifeform: ssd wear is a thing.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865777 << aite, we can revisit if he asks
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 08:23 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-24#1865605 << i wouldn't send him supplies he doesn't ask for. let the man actually do something useful.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 05:24 mircea_popescu: re-doing this every few years seems eminently 'dammi tempu ca ti perciu'.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-08 03:13 asciilifeform: 'cmp', the other co. linked from trinque's old link, has actual PRICES!111 -- http://cmp.imag.fr/IMG/pdf/cmp_prices_schedule_sept-16.pdf
asciilifeform: ( the other sub-$1mil fab is mosis co., but it is in usa, serves primarily usg, and dun publish prices, in the past i tried to get estimate from it but without success )
asciilifeform: here's what i was able to find , via the pdf turd : base charge is 700 -- 12000 euro / mm^2 , depending on density ( 0.35uM to 28nm ); this gets you 25 ~bare~ dies , + 'phree 15 if available' ;
asciilifeform: plus 'shipping and eu export fees'. but the other big hit is packaging cost : 30 - 100 eu. ~per chip~, depending on # of contacts / shape of can.
asciilifeform: a reasonable die is 4-10 mm^2 .
asciilifeform: ( if yer baking cpu, or fpga, or other item large enuff to make the game worth the candles )
asciilifeform: nao multiply it all by 2 or 3, because that's how many shots it usually takes to properly polish off ic product.
asciilifeform: sooo taking only the lower bounds ( 4mm^2 ; 700 eu. per mm^2 ; 30 eu. per tin can ) and not counting eu fees / taxes / exorbitant shipping couriers , and assuming 25 , we end up with a figure of 3550 eu, 'old toyota' gets you 25 units, some of which may even work...
asciilifeform: per my reckoning, you can ~maybe~ fit a '386' in these.
asciilifeform: ( ~300k transistor )
asciilifeform: which is not so bad, quite enuff for a mips ( or even the old bolix , supposing anyone had the layout for it ) but laughably small for e.g. fpga.
asciilifeform: the 3550 is per run, if it wasnt obv.
asciilifeform: the other thing i oughta mention, is the amt of sweat required. if asciilifeform were a free man, could do it in perhaps a year. but at present-day capacity, would not dare to even try.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865790 << i sat for 2h last night reading 'standard' and 'rationale', and was not able to determine ! will require extensive dig into the gnat src, i suspect.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 08:39 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865731 << this is actually pretty dubious. where internally ?
mircea_popescu: sabotage!
mircea_popescu: bvt *thumbsup*
mircea_popescu: up to you whether to make a dir or not ; eventually these will end up in that http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-23#1865314 -- but the only way that happens is if you try things and then productively disagree with people. i've nfi at the moment whether we do or we don't want single temp files in a tmp dir nevertheless, or anything else ; and i absolutely do not wish to ever do (or will ever permit anyone to) sit around and "think
a111: Logged on 2018-10-23 06:31 mircea_popescu: slowly but surely a republican ada style manual is shaping up (and through the exact http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-23#1865304 process, at that!)
mircea_popescu: about" with a view to "decide" "how it should be". we'll find out the natural way, there's no need for badly written fanfic.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865802 << yeah, sure. and we'll have this luxury again once tmsr-os. because as it is right now, the option is not actually available.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 13:49 asciilifeform: ssd wear is a thing.
mircea_popescu: much like we'll have the luxury of paying taxes (it IS a luxury, if they're correctly used it's way the fuck better to pay a twenny and snow mover to come in than for each to keep in shed, oiled and repaired, own minimover for own driveway) once there's tmsr.gov somewhere. and so on.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865811 << this is nonsense, no chip packaging costs a benjie wtf. and is the 700 per how many ?
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 13:59 asciilifeform: plus 'shipping and eu export fees'. but the other big hit is packaging cost : 30 - 100 eu. ~per chip~, depending on # of contacts / shape of can.
mircea_popescu has serious trouble reading that ; and would absolutely not buy anything from a french company anyway.
mircea_popescu: (imagine -- item's been loading this entire interval, still not loaded).
mircea_popescu: o look, 700 per 25. tell you what, if we find actual chinese supplier this'll be so fucking feasible...
mircea_popescu: in any case asciilifeform : i am sure nsa would have no problem spending a coin or two on prototyping this.
mircea_popescu: what you really need to do is take on an apprentice, to cut down on that year.\
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865831 << it's a hand-cranked 'for small runs' shop, 1 of 2 known to exist. hence the riotous per-unit pricings.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 14:57 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865811 << this is nonsense, no chip packaging costs a benjie wtf. and is the 700 per how many ?
asciilifeform: i expect they use meat hands, with microscopes, to package.
asciilifeform: and yes if you instead spend 2-3mil you get wafer, cut, and package, from china etc. but we were discussing 'minimal' fabs..
mircea_popescu: we were discussing the "2-3" figure.
asciilifeform: it's sorta like the outfit we had FG pcb baked in, but moar extreme.
mircea_popescu: eminently NOT discussing "here's how to not discuss what we're discussing".
asciilifeform: i was originally speaking of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865751 dig.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 05:14 asciilifeform: there's a coupla 'small scale' fabs, but on close examination smell like ripoff, they ship with literally 0 guarantee of yield , and in laughable qty , and with laughable transistor count, and -- to add insult to injury -- die packaging not included, you gotta somehow find someone to do it, somewhere
asciilifeform: ( and mircea_popescu seems to concur with my verdict, they're ripoffs )
mircea_popescu: whereas the point is at http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865758 ; we would like to know how many bitcoin for a run today.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 05:24 mircea_popescu: re-doing this every few years seems eminently 'dammi tempu ca ti perciu'.
asciilifeform: this screamingly cries for a cn-speaking fella.
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865788 << thanks for the resolution, i wasn't sure if my insistence on my original (that is temp file in .) approach was sensible or not. "canonical" in this case was whether or not that's something we do, not whether or not that's something unix does
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 08:35 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-24#1865707 << ./tmp is the "cannonical" place for putting "temporary" files ; but only in the sense that ./<label> is the place one'd expect <label> files to end up. it's only cannonical in the sense of cockblocking idiotic unixisms and other moronnicals.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: let's suppose we make the req'd contact. what wouldja want to fab 1st ?
mircea_popescu: phf i dunno that it's set as "something we do" ; but it's certainly something we do in preference of "/tmp" much like we do things in preference of /dev/rand and other such bs.
mircea_popescu: the fundamental issue is that linux acts "as if" it's in friendly territory ; which is eminently false.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what, the phb is supposed to come up with what ? you come up with three things let me pick, how about that!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i've outlined several items, historically. will summarize for the l0gz, in order of descending ( per asciilifeform's lights ) universality : 1) sane fpga 2) sane minimal cpu 3) 8192-bit arithmetizer ( a la ye olde weitek! but for ints ) 4) 2+3 , if somehow can be fit into 1 die 5) 1chip carrierless radio ( per thread ) 6) sane ethernet controller .
asciilifeform: possibly incomplete list, but roughly it.
mircea_popescu: i dunno "fpga" is something that may be sane.
asciilifeform: why not ? it's the simplest item, and theoretically the others can be made from it.
mircea_popescu: a universal tsmr cpu, even if nothing more than miniaturized/updated z80, would prolly be the one gain here. so we end up with a commodity part to put in things.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform define "fpga" for me.
asciilifeform: and pretty much the ideal 'nonspecificity of diddling' platform, it is quite impossible to meaningfully boobytrap fpga fabric if you don't have foreknowledge of what will go into it and precisely where.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall ice40 ? simple grid of LUTs, + matrix of programmable interconnects.
asciilifeform: for that matter current FG is baked on fpga, from evil old xilinx.
mircea_popescu: this is not a definition. define it.
asciilifeform: buncha gates, as many as can fit, and a programmable switching matrix, a la old telco , look up tables made of 4-6 bits of sram that turn a given unit into 'and' , 'or', 'xor', half-adder, straight wire, whichever is necessary. i dun know how to more rigorously define, it is one of the simplest devices, straight homogeneous grid of sram cells plus a couple hundred (thousand, in larger devices) 'express lanes' made of straight metal,
asciilifeform: to use as bus
mircea_popescu: i can well define a hammer, one of the simplest devices.
asciilifeform: 'heavy iron head on a wooden stem'
asciilifeform: same level of description
mircea_popescu: there's two possible reasons you don't have a definition for a fpga you're happy with : either we're not yet enough advanced for one (to use, to make, whatever), or that it is ouytright an escher object.
mircea_popescu: and i suspect the later.
asciilifeform: FG is baked on fpga.
asciilifeform: for 'escher object' it worx pretty well.
mircea_popescu: but anyway, for my own use, fpga=wrapper around industrial poverty, somewhat like a painting that came with crayons.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the problem with escher objects is that "perpetuum mobile -- also works pretty well". it's what the fan always says, because "to my eyes" http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-18#1686299 sorta thing.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-18 22:58 asciilifeform: whaack is quite likely thinking of the bulk of the b00k, which consists of blockcipher liquishit which is complicated for no reason at all other than the religion where 'it is confusing to ME, author, and therefore Must Be Hard To Break'
mircea_popescu: i believe attempting to go "everything's a fpga because fg worked ok on one" is learning the wrong lesson from fg, in the http://btcbase.org/log/2014-06-02#699427 sense.
a111: Logged on 2014-06-02 22:49 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: jurov: smbx had perverse incentives (usg funding that appeared bottomless - until it died suddenly. reagan's 'star wars.') << best way to sink a good start-up is a bad revenue source early on.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for design that actually fits inside, you end with exactly 'slow asic', with the added win that it's a homogeneous object with no e.g. 'and here is where he will rsa and here is where the low bit of multiplier will live' sabotage target available to enemy mole in vendor plant.
mircea_popescu: because no, "every picture comes with crayons now" is not very smart ; and it's perversely, recursively nonsmart ("can't make polaroid, no way to produce attachable crayons -- maybe 3d print them ???")
asciilifeform: i disagree -- fpga is analogous to gutenberg's movable type; classical 'asic per design' to chinese whole-plate.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's better approaches to hanging moles than putting an ok button on every movement of every rifle.
mircea_popescu: well, this dispute will have to be resolved cuz it's fucking important.
mircea_popescu: i'm not particularly invested in being right about it ; but i'd better not be right and we end up with the wrong thing.
asciilifeform: thing's existed since mid-80s, the pluses and minuses of it are well-documented
mircea_popescu: i don't suspect they're well understood.
asciilifeform: ( orig ancestor was the PAL. there were PALs in yer ro 'spectrum' clone. )
mircea_popescu: neither do you -- the minuses of the linux-c stack were actually not thortoughly understood until tmsr either.
asciilifeform: there's 2 well-known minuses. 1 is that yer making circuit out of immovable parts, connected by drawing line though multiple elements ( bus lines are generally few ) , this gives you much slower circuit with many fewer logical elements than if you had made the device physically from scratch .
asciilifeform: the other is political, all of the existing vendors obfuscate and keep seekrit the necessary docs to actually program the thing. ice40 happens to have been reversed, but it is ruinously small ( still ~150x bigger than the miniature xilinx i baked FG from, however , but too small even for 4096bit adder )
mircea_popescu: the third is technological -- you learn to walk with crutch.
mircea_popescu: this is my concern here.
asciilifeform: what's the 'crutch' ? not spending a $3mil + 1yr delay if there's bug in layout , like 1970s folx had to ?
mircea_popescu: now, a 4096 bit native fpga, specifically for rsa-ing and rsa-likes-ing, THAT might be very useful, because there the s-o-d item is major win.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes alf, that's what's always the crutch. "give just a little spring in yoru step for insurance against toads in the roads." that's precisely the crutch.
asciilifeform: there's no 'bitness' in fpga, it's a bag of gates, if you have enuff of them you can made n-bit addder, divider, whatever one likes
mircea_popescu: no but i mean, pre-bake it in 4096 bit chunks
mircea_popescu: no bit. byte, of 4096 bit size. make n-byte adder, sure.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is actually how existing ic industry worx, a good half of the 'asics' are actually 'hard copy fpga', recall the early miner derps threads.
asciilifeform: they prototype on ordinary, sram-based one, then pay to have it metallized.
mircea_popescu: so it's how the "industry" works. http://trilema.com/2016/tangerine/ is how the "music industry" works.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you realise "soviets imported windowze" was precisely s. s. sovietovski saying "this is how industry works" in 1980.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the sad bit is that conventional asic process , as available today in cn , tw, etc, is also like this. you are forced to use 'standard cells' supplied by vendor.
asciilifeform: they giv'em under nda, too.
mircea_popescu: yes well. how about we bake out of this, rather than into this.
asciilifeform: as i currently understand, that means vertical integration, i.e. building the plant.
mircea_popescu: ie, i can't fucking have an arbitrary chip made.
mircea_popescu: if i wanted the center caret of z80 rotated 90 degrees and printed, i could not get this done.
asciilifeform: i wouldn't go so far as 'can't', but we're talking 'lease $B plant for 6mo.' sort of figure.
asciilifeform: it is not available as off-the-shelf service anywhere, afaik, nope.
mircea_popescu: the exact digits in there are the question here.
asciilifeform: i found this out the last time we had 'let's bake ic' thread, and it was thoroughly depressing, put me off subj for 2y..
mircea_popescu: yes. but it's been 2 years.
mircea_popescu: are you saying the reeval cycle is too tight ?
asciilifeform: the exact figs can only be obtained by a cn-speaking emissary, i suspect.
asciilifeform: and their magnitude will depend, i also suspect, on how well he plays his cards.
asciilifeform: btw the reason, afaik, why erry fab house forces 'standard cells', is that they have proprietary tweaks to their process , and have lib of cells ( kept seekrit ) that are known to work with said process.
asciilifeform: the actual physical procedure of baking the ic is not as standardized as i previously (to last thread) thought.
mircea_popescu: indeed it is not.
asciilifeform: it is at the level of 18th c. cannon-forging, roughly. erry house has 'seekrit sauce'.
mircea_popescu: moreover, very 1820s steam engine airs hang about the entire barn
mircea_popescu: oh im sorry, "industry"
asciilifeform: imho the race for 'smallest transistor' has been a disaster of incaization -- in '70s there were thousands of ic makers, in '80s -- hundreds, in '90s -- dozens, today maybe 10 .
asciilifeform: the plant gets ruinously costlier, per erry 'shrunk nanometre', and somehow gotta be amortized, and the competition gets thinner an' thinner
asciilifeform: iirc we had a thread re 'ic is deeply incatronic tech' hypothesis
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha.
BingoBoingo: Kinda suggests the 2+3 option seems like it could be had sooner than a neutral field of gates FPGA
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i doubt any of it belongs in same sentence with word 'soon', we're speaking of just short of mars colony.
BingoBoingo: That's an exageration. This is more of a blank slate nitromethane internal combustion engine for freight hauling.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: vehehery different class of nre cost, vs engine.
asciilifeform: much moar comparable to satellite biz. a 1-bit mistake costs you coupla $mil.
asciilifeform: and the mistake can be in anyffing, incl. a physical interaction between unrelated components that you did not know were possible.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, this bitmistake/milcost is the exact reason human genome is some % garbage.
mircea_popescu: what exact % -- numeriuc application from those priors.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: see also http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-18#1863686 thrd, yes
a111: Logged on 2018-10-18 23:27 asciilifeform: nobody's ever built anyffin with even close to the noise tolerance of meat.
asciilifeform: diff in resilience of meat, and in the toughest worx of man, is much greater than e.g. speed diff between jet fighter and ox cart
asciilifeform: nobody has anyffing on meat, period.
BingoBoingo: Well, we could always try seeing how the Chicoms price modern Z80 implemented in cultured pig neurons
mircea_popescu: and since we're on all this, let me point out that http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865749 are very much our friends.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 05:10 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865735 << i took a stab at this 2y ago, was very frustrating on acct of asic-baking not being a 'cash and carry' process like e.g. pcb-baking, but a heavily meat-powered affair where the derps want to 'get to know you' to figure out how much they can fleece
mircea_popescu: republic "can be fleeced" far in excess of their parent company's hallucinatory "market valuation". let them try.
mircea_popescu: and i do not mean that in the negative, art all. literally, let them try, get to know us, figure things out, break their "assesorando" toolchain in the process....
mircea_popescu: (the spanish reference comes from a famous incident in argentina where mp was trying to buy real estate, and idiot woman at desk's idea of the process was that she's now going to "assess" me. that blew up spectacularily if predictably.)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lol, didja walk in with 5kg of green ? and reply 'here, assess this'
mircea_popescu: cuz why would i.
asciilifeform: well if not then how is the dealer to know that yer payment-capable, without 'assess'. or do i misperceive what that meant
mircea_popescu: anyway, if i for some reason walk into dnc office odds are stupid fat woman will similarly misbehave ; and the "bitch, i diselected your ur-whore" isn't gonna happen there more than in messipissland.
mircea_popescu: because, again, why would i.
asciilifeform: they mostly deal with ~broke orcs, neh. who walk in and 'i want 'buy' house, but i have no money'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform suppose he lowers the tail and rolls over. "this is the inventory, please, take some, take any, for any price, save my chitlins, my wife's going mad with the hunger moans of the chitlins!!!"
mircea_popescu: buncha retailers in their own mind.
asciilifeform: reminds me of process of buying autos in usa. picture, you walk in with chequebook. 'i want toyota' --- 3 hrs later, you MAYBE drive off in a toyota, or more likely yer still fighting over 'no, i do NOT want loan, not at 3%, not 2, not 0 , i want to pay with money'
mircea_popescu: (incidentally, the recurrent "ban shorts" nonsense is all about this -- the fundamental pantsuit promise is that "no one should ever have to go through the above". which, of course, is how they wrecked the marketplace.)
asciilifeform: ( see, if you pay with money, the poor fuck manning the desk makes 0 , he only makes if you pay interest )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i saw truly mindboggling number of unfinished-and-decaying half-built houses in timis
asciilifeform: this gotta be why
mircea_popescu: yup. owner won't sell "at a loss".
asciilifeform: i thought it was 'idjit commissioned build without checking whether he has the whole sum'
asciilifeform: 'we finishes cellar and half of ground floor, nao pay' '...'
mircea_popescu: this is the argument against "indepenent owners" among the orcs, too, and in general -- they'll do insane things like keep property 10% occupied for $pricepoint, and ignore that $pricepoint * .1 comes to less net than $half-pricepoint * .6
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and at this juncture, orc is supposed to SELL.
asciilifeform: requires buyer, neh
mircea_popescu: AT ANY PRICE.
mircea_popescu: this is how a fucking market works, and what it is.
asciilifeform: at some point he gives up guarding it, as it costs sumthing, and the gypsies move in, i suppose this can be seen as a form of 'sell'
mircea_popescu: without this -- it's communism, admitted or not. either money works, or else it does not.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i see it as a form of idiocy.
asciilifeform: well noshit
asciilifeform: but the idjicy was baked into the act of commissioning the build
asciilifeform: when you haven't with what to pay the whole invoice, or anyone who might ever wish to buy it for even 1% of what it cost
mircea_popescu: there is no such thing as "baken in" idiocy. idiocy is always actively maintained. in fact, idiocy is both the ultimate and the only http://trilema.com/2009/inchipuiti-va/ item.
mircea_popescu: and this also speaks volumes as to the superiority of the 90s -- i personaly bought hruscheba apts in mining-zone-being-abandoned for color tvs and such expedients.
asciilifeform: d00d commissions a 5-story hruscheba-castle in the middle of fucking wasteland. he's bankrupt the second he signs the paper, whether he doubles down later and goes broke-er or not, neh
mircea_popescu: we're not talking wasteland or anything, this is all orc-"urban"
asciilifeform: there was yet another level of idjicy in ro, that i discovered, where they won't sell the shit to foreigners
asciilifeform: ( even if half-castle owner is willing to sell, it gotta be to ~another~ orc )
mircea_popescu: !#s nu ne vindem tara
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'родиной не торгую' (tm)(r)(stalin)
mircea_popescu: of course, it's EMINENTLY for sale if usg.pantsuit wants it. just oyu know, god forbid any leak in the http://trilema.com/2014/in-which-you-become-grain/ process threatens to spring.
asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform is not labouring under delusion , however, that 'if only they sold, i could be sitting in $50k mircea_popescu-grade castle', prolly mitsubishi would own'em all )
a111: Logged on 2017-10-31 15:15 asciilifeform: whole thing quite resembles the 'silver coin glued to the asphalt' everyone encounters in childhood
asciilifeform: orig su version of zek fence was the simplistic 'may not go to foreign devil lands'; modern-day reich's is the moar 'advanced', 'looksy but no touchsy' variant.
mircea_popescu: i suppose it's the intent. leaks like a sieve, not like i don't get done precisely what i want. it takes some screaming, which i got a large store of.
asciilifeform: i'm sure mitsubishi also gets what it wants
mircea_popescu: im sure it doesn't.
asciilifeform: i don't pretend to specifically know. point is, it's an anti-personnel mine field, not anti-tank.
asciilifeform: and evidently even mircea_popescu's supply of screaming + patience was finite, the argentines ended up curing him of further attempts, not he -- them
mircea_popescu: in this sense "earth always wins -- eventually gold's out and then you leave".
mircea_popescu: well what the fuck am i gonna do, marry a local and cultivate the pampas ?
mircea_popescu: of course i leave.
asciilifeform: dun seem that there was so much gold in them hills.
mircea_popescu: certainly nowhere near the advertised.
asciilifeform: gotta luvv how even the very name is a lie -- silver ran out there, when , 19th c ?
mircea_popescu: something like that. and peru always had more anyway.
asciilifeform: to briefly revisit upstack, asciilifeform's interest in ic fab largely revolves around http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-30#1806521 .
a111: Logged on 2018-04-30 16:16 asciilifeform: ( for the sake of thread-completeness, what would the ~alternative~ to this story look like? i suggest -- it'd be a process which does to ic fab what 'polaroid' process did to colour photography. find way of etching the circuit from prefab 'sandwich' without caustic baths, sputtering, etc... )
asciilifeform: presently i have nfi whether this is physically possible, or how in particular -- could be fpga-like device where somehow the components actually ~move~ into position ; or sumthing where you can optically burn away the unused tracks through 'window' ; or some yet entirely unknown trick.
asciilifeform: imho the classical fab is an overwhelmingly incatronic tech, it centralizes unhealthily.
mircea_popescu: incidentally... there's all these LAYERS, because we're essentially making books, ie, 3d object out of 2d implementations
asciilifeform: that's part of what makes the trad process cost what it does, yes
mircea_popescu: maybe the trick is to make 6-connected cubic matrix and burn away connexions via ion pump or similar.
asciilifeform: the etches, the masks, the elemental fluorine gas and other joys
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'd even settle for something entirely like ice40 but with fuse/antifuse bridges
asciilifeform: in '80s folx briefly made , then somehow evaporated.
mircea_popescu: incidentally -- there's a very strong link between http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865962 (ie, the naive expectation that money buys you good in reich) and the question of... why doesn't alf have elemental fluorine in his house ? "well, he doesn't want it" "suppose he did ?" "then he'd have to get authorization, like the plants do" "you mean... buy toyota ?" "eeexactly".
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 16:07 asciilifeform: reminds me of process of buying autos in usa. picture, you walk in with chequebook. 'i want toyota' --- 3 hrs later, you MAYBE drive off in a toyota, or more likely yer still fighting over 'no, i do NOT want loan, not at 3%, not 2, not 0 , i want to pay with money'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: regularly there's word from some d00d who actually bought surplus gear ( see e.g. linked thread ) and 'omfg, i made a diode!' , typically as far as they get ( and it wasn't even because usg.dhs came for his flourine , afaik it did not )
mircea_popescu: menalone and their problems, who cares.
mircea_popescu: it's fine for i suppose a fifteen year old, though if it carries into the next year there's already mild retardation involved.
asciilifeform: ( generally if you do it in the part of town where the garages and meth labs are, you dun have usg.problems, at least not immediately )
asciilifeform also quite liked. even learned of previously-unsuspected linuxlol
asciilifeform: srsly, wtf, mips.
mircea_popescu: prolly laying dormant to be used as example in who knows what future "discussion" etc.
asciilifeform: i'd like to learn who it was, who mutilated.
mircea_popescu: the medieval notion ("fleas spontaneously generate from filth") was not biologically correct, but mechanically quite adequate.
asciilifeform: entirely. like the 19th c lumped approximation to maxwell's equations.
asciilifeform: ( still taught in kindergarten, errywhere )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re 'ion pump' upstack , in olden days when asciilifeform worked as academi-grunt in a bio lab, did many long hours of snore at electrophoretic 'blots', where chromatographic rubbish moves along a gel. and thought 'why not bake ic this day, what if you give it 2nd axis to steer the current' etc
asciilifeform: *thisway
asciilifeform: picture two planar gels (or whatever carrier medium) at orthogonal to one another, meeting in a thin line. the 'vertical' plane is yer 'print head', containing single steerable 'column' of $ion; the 'horizontal' is yer 'paper'.
asciilifeform: each gets x and y steering current.
mircea_popescu: 1 at a time might be too slow
mircea_popescu: but something like this.
asciilifeform: nobody says you gotta only run 1 at a time, lol
asciilifeform: can run warehouse full .
mircea_popescu: then they interfere.
asciilifeform: separate 'looms'
asciilifeform: we're speaking of a pocket-sized apparatus .
asciilifeform: nao missing ingredient, find a carrier medium that you can do this to, that can be doped to semiconduct...
asciilifeform: the harder part might be ~conducting~ tracks -- would need sumthing that can be moved electrophoretically (i.e. ionic) but then somehow fuse into metallic conductor.
asciilifeform: ( perhaps when baked ? )
mircea_popescu: maybe some metalloceramic thing.
asciilifeform: massively green field
mircea_popescu: "industry" amirite.
asciilifeform: well no, faberge.
asciilifeform: specifically opposite of industry(tm)
asciilifeform: hence 0 movement , afaik, on any such front.
mircea_popescu: but in principle an... overconducting, let's call ti (not superconducting, simply higher conductance than metals) metalloceramic could be had.
mircea_popescu: afaik not yet found tho
asciilifeform: you want an end product that conducts thermally as well as electrically, or you get a lighter.
asciilifeform: btw -- and iirc we had the thread -- there are even deeper crackpotteries potentially in the mix : it is possible to have strictly magnetic logic, without semiconductor. if can simply etch fine metal mask, interleaved with insulator, potentially can have a kind of slow 'z80' from miniature toroid logic (as seen in '60s su)
mircea_popescu: it's not clear to me the high power intelisms are ab solute necessity.
mircea_popescu: "you want water for your engine" sorta thing
asciilifeform: not even speaking of intelisms -- if you can't remove heat at the rate it is produced by resistance -- you get magic smoke, no matter how you cut it
asciilifeform: water or no water
asciilifeform: ( for n00bz re earlier -- magnetic logic is based on the fact that a transformer core can 'saturate'. ergo you can bake a 'nand' simply from transformer with three windings.
asciilifeform: and there isn't really a theoretically minimal size for it, afaik.
asciilifeform: ( and can have almost anyffing as the core, even vacuum, all transformers saturate )
mircea_popescu: yes, but there's no rule saying "useful processor eats kW". for all you know it eats mW. there's a lot of eV in a mW.
asciilifeform: !#s setun
asciilifeform: kW if you make it room-sized. potentially mW if microscopic.
asciilifeform: all of this is in re 'you may be able to get away with only metals, no dopants' subthread.
asciilifeform: 'we dun need a 4 ring binder, we dun need a 3 ring binder, we dun need papers, we want information crunched'
asciilifeform: nobody said it ~gotta~ semiconduct.
mircea_popescu: to quote a lord, "green field all around"
asciilifeform: for all i know, you could match 'z80' performance with simply modified cathode tube where the beam steers depending on what the state of the phosphor under it was, rather than moving in linear rasters.
asciilifeform: ( in '50s this was a best-selling 'ram' , but afaik nobody thought to de-rasterize it and make it the whole comp )
asciilifeform: ( think 'cellular automaton' )
mircea_popescu: the code writing for tyhis will need some real men.
mircea_popescu: "in an attempt to simplify computing, alf brings you, the computer that can only be programmed by a computer."
asciilifeform: we kinda have these already
asciilifeform: ( i cant say i've ever programmed anyffing using http://www.loper-os.org/pub/podvig_radista.jpg method ... )
asciilifeform: tho funnily enuff, in '80s su the standard method of burning ROMs was actually this box with keypad
asciilifeform: you enter addr, then hit FF, or B0, or whatever, then '->' button...
asciilifeform: i saw a surplus box of this type for sale, not so long ago
mircea_popescu: bought some ?
asciilifeform: rom hand-typewriter, if you will.
asciilifeform: resisted to buy, it's ~typewriter size/mass'd
mircea_popescu: seems a fine way to put in a privkey :D
asciilifeform: typically they kept privkeys on hole-tape
asciilifeform: ( burns well, and costs < roms )
mircea_popescu: ever had slavegirls type out rsa stuff btw ? it's like 1girlhour/kb sorta deal.
asciilifeform: goes smoother if you giv'em an 'autovon'-style keypad thing, instead of pc kbd
asciilifeform: ( put a/b/c/d/e/f stickers, and you got it )
mircea_popescu: not that much faster ; the padding helps speed, and familioarity also.
mircea_popescu: not saying that whole new generation couldn't be baked for this purpose. but seems insanity.
asciilifeform: there are not so many occasions when i hammer in key by hand.
asciilifeform: i suppose if i had a stable of trained seals, might entertain'em/self in this way.
mircea_popescu: i suppose.
mircea_popescu: logsummarizing, more productive imo.
asciilifeform: i would've naively imagined that massive 'contrabass' like this would may as well include the uv lamp. but apparently didn't.
bvt: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865825 << if you don't force the 'tempfiles ./tmp' scheme, i would much prefer to implement the 'temp. file in ./' variant. vpatch coming at latest tomorrow.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 14:52 mircea_popescu: up to you whether to make a dir or not ; eventually these will end up in that http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-23#1865314 -- but the only way that happens is if you try things and then productively disagree with people. i've nfi at the moment whether we do or we don't want single temp files in a tmp dir nevertheless, or anything else ; and i absolutely do not wish to ever do (or will ever permit anyone to) sit around and "think
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 17:01 mircea_popescu: http://bvt-trace.net/2018/10/vpatch-replacing-mktemp3/ << i quite enjoyed reading this btw.
bvt: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1866029 << asciilifeform, it seems that i accidentally made you believe that only mips is wrecked. Well, check this out http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/sWrur/?raw=true
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 17:02 asciilifeform: srsly, wtf, mips.
mircea_popescu: bvt aite
asciilifeform: bvt: i'm not surprised; but these dun affect anyffing i considered to be essential posix knob
asciilifeform: ( i.e. none of these flags appear in my proggies, aside from the open() one )
asciilifeform: O_DIRECTORY might be a bitch in the fyootoor , i suppose
mircea_popescu: changed ndelay etc
asciilifeform: possibly sumthing like http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-24#1865559 oughta be considered.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 15:25 asciilifeform: incidentally, https://www.adacore.com/gems/gem-59 apparently exists, tho i confess that i really dislike the idea of automatic converters for coad
asciilifeform: cuz it's either that or 1 v-branch per os/iron .
asciilifeform: ( and from this we get to 'why didja not write the proggy in asm, if it only worx on linux 2.4 on mips ' etc )
bvt: asciilifeform: re exotic flags -- sure. but i don't expect different results with syscall numbers as well. some subset will match, later in the table -- complete mess
asciilifeform: bvt: syscalls were never guaranteed to be same errywhere tho
asciilifeform: they aint a posixism
mircea_popescu: i dunno, but this is brewing into a kettle of fish.
asciilifeform: the correct end of the funnel to plug, imho , would be a sane flags lib built ~into gnat~, and correct ~per gnat port~
asciilifeform: sorta what the orig authors lamely tried to do ( and mostly failed )
asciilifeform: so any particular proggy can call e.g. open() with correct flaggisms, because it aint as if the gnat on the $box does not already know what os/iron it sits on.
mircea_popescu: basically one step towards gnatos
bvt: re syscalls -- fair enough. but imo this shows extreme brokeness of linux portability -- i can't think about a sane reason for syscall numbers to differ across arches.
asciilifeform: the funny/sad bit is that this is ALREADY in gnat, for e.g. http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch8_randomism#L132 , but ~not exposed~ ! to user
mircea_popescu: cuz it must be there, yes.
asciilifeform: bvt: they differ for same reason as tit sizes -- nobody ever standardized, so naturally varies
bvt: Ada.Sequential_IO is wired straight into fopen/fread/fwrite, by the way.
bvt: everything system-dependent that i've seen in gnat runtime goes into C code.
asciilifeform: how else ? it dun know about kernel abi, linux mutations, etc
asciilifeform: of course it hooks into c/posix api.
asciilifeform: sorta why i went ahead and stuck ALL of the os-dependent crud in udp lib into 1 .c
asciilifeform: cuz may as well; if we ever tear off unix , will have to replace those mechanisms anyway
bvt: the thing is, structure definitions and all sort of flag numbers appear in the libc via magic. having all this things in ada is possible, and would involve exactly same work that e.g. musl people are doing today
bvt: *these
asciilifeform: ( on bare iron, with , say, iron-control variables where e.g. Nic : Unsigned_32 ; for Nic'Address use 16#FF00ABCD#; etc )
asciilifeform: bvt: imho it's wasted work; oughta have just enuff coad to interoperate with the pot of c liquishit while we still must
asciilifeform: rather than baking it into 1000 manyears
asciilifeform: my udp lib is ~600 line, and not 6000, because i went in this direction.
bvt: but maybe, only the subset you need for mmaptron, for starters? full conversion is definitely not worth it
asciilifeform: i do not see how it would be improved by being 6000, if i were to try to adaize erry possible idjit unix's struct sockaddr_in .
asciilifeform: bvt: maptron is actually done aside from the strings horror raised last night
asciilifeform: i'ma genesisate it as soon as i figure out a workaround
bvt: ok
asciilifeform: imho in long term we really gotta move the compat layers liquishit out of individual projects and into tmsr-gnat
asciilifeform: to keep 9000 mutant copies of these basic things is insanity
asciilifeform: it's why it made sense to fork off gnat to begin with, so that these can be done.
asciilifeform: ( also to stop the gcc5ism gangrene, but this is a close second )
mircea_popescu: just as soon as we figure ouyt wtf they even are.
mircea_popescu: eg, to ~everyone the above open, and stack and etc were surprises.
asciilifeform: the obvious alternative to cataloguing the liquishit, is to let it stay in gnat's c frontend where it belongs, a la the udp.c thing.
asciilifeform: and when we get own os, can rip out the c immediately in favour of for CuntLips'Address use 16#FF00ABCD# device interface, etc.
mircea_popescu: i suspect noboduy's getting out of cataloguing the shit that easily, but we see.
asciilifeform: really the shit to catalog is the actual kernel abi -- what ave1 is doing .
asciilifeform: there's very little point in memorializing the c api liquishit imho
asciilifeform: i'd luvv to see a syscall-tronic version of the udp transceiver thing, for instance.
bvt: syscalltronic = based on direct invocation of linux syscalls? how this would be possible without haveing sockaddr_in in ada?
bvt: *having
asciilifeform: ( and yes it is catalogued, in various places, e.g. http://blog.rchapman.org/posts/Linux_System_Call_Table_for_x86_64/ , but to go to implementation takes moar sweat )
asciilifeform: bvt: i do not know for a fact whether it eats same struct as the userland call, or different
asciilifeform: that was my point, this remains to be excavated
asciilifeform: as by asciilifeform -- the pill which weighs the least, is the Right Thing, per http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1866148 , an absolute minimum , line for line, of os-specific liquishit, is the ticket.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 18:25 asciilifeform: my udp lib is ~600 line, and not 6000, because i went in this direction.
asciilifeform: and .c is not the only os liquishit, tables of platform constants that one ends up with from avoidance of .c, is also liquishit.
bvt: well, http://git.musl-libc.org/cgit/musl/tree/src/network/connect.c -- the structure is the same; digging is rather easy, if you don't look into glibc
asciilifeform: bvt: suspected as much
asciilifeform: really, the os-platforming crapola belongs inside gnat.
asciilifeform: port it once per iron/os and then fughet it.
asciilifeform: whole point of using a compiled lang is that this garbage dun have to live in yer proggy !
asciilifeform: otherwise why not just write 0xfbadf00d.... etc
bvt: well, i did not suggest learning/utilizing C api, on the contrary, a subset of kernel stuff in ada is the interesting thing. it just happens to be currently defined/documented as C code.
asciilifeform: bvt: linux kernel is fundamentally retarded, it expects null-termed rubbish, at times, at other times, char * and length, not to mention a pile of untyped ptrs inside structs, really oughta eat ada structs , ada fixed strings, properly typed arrays, etc instead
asciilifeform: any spackle over the orig unix liquishit, is doomed to be ugly. so imho the smallest possible spackle that does the job, is Right Thing
asciilifeform: right up until we finally ditch unix c kernels.
asciilifeform: for so long as we're stuck on a linux box, i'd rather spackle over the c-ism with 600 ln, than with 6000 .
asciilifeform: it is ~much~ easier to demonstrate the correctness of 600, no matter what else.
asciilifeform: ( and btw the actual amt of c spackle in udp lib , http://btcbase.org/patches/udp_fix_ip_nullchars/tree/udp/libudp/unix_udp.c , is 146 ln. )
asciilifeform: if somebody can show how to do same in 100, or 10, i'ma read and sign the patch and take off my hat.
asciilifeform: but i aint particularly interested in 'improvement' that turns the 146 into 1460.
asciilifeform: ( if you have a 1460 , it had better include whole ip stack and driver for iron nic, lol )
asciilifeform: let's reformulate this way : we want the ~net~ complexity of the orchestra to decrease. if we cannot yet decrease ~net~, the Right Thing is to at least refrain from adding, when possible.
asciilifeform: when you add compatibility spackle, serious reader is not saved from reading the thing you spackled over -- on the contrary nao he has to read the ~original~ rubbish ~plus~ your spackle, however much it weighs.
asciilifeform: at the risk of repeating ancient thread -- 'the best machine is no machine', it weighs nuffin, needs no maintenance. and the best proggy, is no proggy at all, if a problem can be solved without writing proggy, it ought to be. erry line of coad can be rightfully pictured as an act of intellectual littering. y'know, like throwing cig butt or bottle on the ground in the park.
asciilifeform: it is not possible to live life wholly without exhaust product, errybody exhales, shits, occasionally drops a crumb. but imho good form is to at least recognize that litter is unwanted.
asciilifeform: one thing to shit on an enemy's door step, deliberately, entirely other thing to shit errywhere because not realizing that shit -- stinks
asciilifeform: anyway i'ma leave it at this, will bbl:meat.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 18:52 asciilifeform: whole point of using a compiled lang is that this garbage dun have to live in yer proggy !
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1866180 << this is approximately the work of re-writing eulora too.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 18:59 bvt: well, i did not suggest learning/utilizing C api, on the contrary, a subset of kernel stuff in ada is the interesting thing. it just happens to be currently defined/documented as C code.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1866191 << this is very much so ; restatement of ye [very recent] olde http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-08#1859478
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 19:10 asciilifeform: when you add compatibility spackle, serious reader is not saved from reading the thing you spackled over -- on the contrary nao he has to read the ~original~ rubbish ~plus~ your spackle, however much it weighs.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-08 16:20 mircea_popescu: because no, the "i know ~exactly~ what the computer is doing" declaration is not optional. exactly like socrates' observation, "the man claiming no political system has political system", exactly so, whatever the claim, to run code on machine equals the declaration of having fully read and thoroughly understood. there's no wiggle room.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 19:17 asciilifeform: anyway i'ma leave it at this, will bbl:meat.
deedbot: http://ossasepia.com/2018/10/25/smg-comms-chapter-4-c-wrappers-for-rsa-and-mpi/ << Ossasepia - SMG Comms Chapter 4: C Wrappers for RSA and MPI
BingoBoingo: Welcome back Mocky
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/10/notbombs-culprit-still-at-large-fbi-still-prime-suspect/ << Qntra - #NotBombs Culprit Still At Large, FBI Still Prime Suspect
Mocky: oh my god BingoBoingo I'm so fucking tired
BingoBoingo: What happened now?
BingoBoingo: Did you forget to hydrate enough?
Mocky: socializing at fancy bar / restaurant for 5 hours. just got back home, about to pass out
BingoBoingo does that occasionally
BingoBoingo: Ah, pass out and have fun
Mocky: got 3 good leads for qatari introductions. and a kuwait lead thrust upon me
BingoBoingo: Very cool
Mocky: apparently kuwait computers are shit and one chick knows another chick who runs "cyber security" for a kuwaiti / iraqi company, has been in there for 30 years, knows everyone in the biz. promised me a kuwaiti business sponsor if I actually know anything about computer security, put her number in my phone for me, and texted her to expect contact from me
Mocky: told me how to get liquor there, that it's not 'dry' like it's claimed, lol
mircea_popescu: mocky you magnificent bastard.
mircea_popescu: bring her in here.
Mocky: she works for army inteligence on the us base here. had to listen to 30 minutes of snoweden hatred
Mocky: they eyes are closing, passing out in 3... 2..
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1866203 << on a good day, i pump away moar than produce...
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 19:27 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1866195 << to make more shit ? :D
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1866216 << kuwait, like zimbabwe, or whoever else, can quit running winblowz whenever it pulls its head out of arse
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 20:45 Mocky: apparently kuwait computers are shit and one chick knows another chick who runs "cyber security" for a kuwaiti / iraqi company, has been in there for 30 years, knows everyone in the biz. promised me a kuwaiti business sponsor if I actually know anything about computer security, put her number in my phone for me, and texted her to expect contact from me
asciilifeform: ( not much , i suspect, chance of this sort of pull-out, while it remains usg colony )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1866222 << didja ask chix why , if snowden is a zero , e.g. colonel vetrov is 'hero' ?
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 20:47 Mocky: she works for army inteligence on the us base here. had to listen to 30 minutes of snoweden hatred
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1866205 << goes great with the 'c glue' thread from earlier
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 19:28 deedbot: http://ossasepia.com/2018/10/25/smg-comms-chapter-4-c-wrappers-for-rsa-and-mpi/ << Ossasepia - SMG Comms Chapter 4: C Wrappers for RSA and MPI
bvt: at this point -- bis morgen!
asciilifeform will read
trinque: !!v 99B5D9287A323E6C7D3C9FC803B8499CD847FBADDF0BDC36CED2C41E480DCDCF
lobbesbot: trinque: Sent 3 days, 9 hours, and 25 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> is http://trinque.org/2018/07/06/cuntoo-bootstrapper-preview/ still most recent cuntoo ? i got errything ready to bake cuntoo lappy ( the oddball lcd box; old ssd from zoolag ) ; should proceed or wait for update ? ty
lobbesbot: trinque: Sent 3 days, 5 hours, and 19 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> http://trinque.org/cuntoo.tar.gz 404's
lobbesbot: trinque: Sent 3 days, 0 hours, and 36 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/dI29G/?raw=true << very peculiar barfology from existing ( same tarball i successfully used for s.mg box ) cuntoo. sat for 4 hrs, built both gcc's, etc., then ended with this.
lobbesbot: trinque: Sent 1 day, 5 hours, and 58 minutes ago: <BingoBoingo> http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/VsgXk/?raw=true
trinque: lol, good evening lobbesbot
asciilifeform: ohai trinque
trinque: I'm going to need to get my teeth into cuntoo this weekend before I can help you with lappy. what was in that tarball is very out of date.
asciilifeform: trinque: the odd thing is that it's what i used to bake the s.mg cuntoo; worked, then
asciilifeform: and there's afaik nothing substantially different in the current shot
asciilifeform: gotta be sumthing on the remote (fetched from heathens?) end, iirc the old shot still had these
trinque: first barf is that openssl was updated and something was linked to previous; @preserved-rebuild oughta fix that
trinque: second almost looks like bad disk
trinque: note ya got remounted to readonly
asciilifeform: disk, in so far as i can tell, is alive ( no eggogs in dmesg )
asciilifeform: it was pulled from zoolag the day before ( and not because sad, but to expand the latter to 1tb )
trinque: mount reports mounted r/w or r/o ?
trinque: that io error is the thing jumping out at me, of course
asciilifeform: nao this, i do not know, i have since taken the thing apart again ( was plugged into lappy )
asciilifeform: could rerun later this wk if this point is of interest to trinque
asciilifeform: ( it takes most of a day to get to the barfpoint )
trinque: I could possibly have you a newer thing to try this weekend; that's the goal
asciilifeform: i'd much prefer, yes, to have the proper cuntoo, with 0 heathen pulls
asciilifeform: ( and at some point i'd like to set up a tarball mirror myself )
trinque: indeed, I have all the tars necessary to build, will provide 'em
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in gnat bugs : apparently ( and this is documented or mentioned nowhere ) : it is impossible to have a Ada.Finalization.Limited_Controlled type ANYWHERE inside a static library, unless it is generic all the way down (i.e. if the lib package is generic, any sub-packages must also be instantiated as generics )
asciilifeform: what you end up with if you break this, is a linker eggog; inside instantiated main adb, loox like http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/tbJta/?raw=true
asciilifeform: observe that E107 is undefined cuz it doesn't shit out a E107 : Short_Integer; pragma Import (Ada, E107, wherever); .
asciilifeform: my current hypothesis is that we're literally the only folx ever to bake static libs (i.e. in .gpr, for Library_Kind use "static"; ) .
asciilifeform: currently i'm in a zugzwang in re the mmap lib : the http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/extOl/?raw=true invocation form is The Right Thing, but it requires passing in a String for Path, which dun work without secondarystackism;
asciilifeform: so then sat down and implemented it in http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/RJjFb/?raw=true form. however this cannot be made to go , because if MemMap package does not know the path at instantiation time, it cannot run,
asciilifeform: in the old form, http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/ZkkVC/?raw=true , observe that for Obj'Address use Maps.Open(.... gotta be a static value, per https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gnat_rm/Address-Clauses.html ( logical )
asciilifeform: and if it ain't available at birth, then it never gets set.
asciilifeform: diana_coman, phf , et al ^ invited to think/comment...
asciilifeform: my only remaining notion here is that possibly gotta implement a 'paths' lib ! i.e. would represent paths as arrays of permanently fixed length , 255 octets, iirc this is the max permitted on unixlikes.
asciilifeform: so then could avoid String entirely.
asciilifeform: i suspect that String Must-Die(tm)
asciilifeform: problem is that CPath : aliased C.Char_Array := C.To_C(Path); , in the glue, demands a String .
asciilifeform: liquishit all the day down...
asciilifeform: the braindamage of unix open()'s demand for a null-termed string, percolates all the way up.
asciilifeform: the real enigma is, why the fuck gnat does not include an interface to ordinary unix open(), why is it that i gotta write it.
asciilifeform: tho even if it existed, and i had memmap package eat a FD that it shat out on instantiation, this would be stupefyingly ugly still, because then memmap cannot be a troo finalized type (i.e. one that cleans up entirely after itself on death, incl. closing its fd)
asciilifeform: the external knobs ~must~ be made to work in http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/extOl/?raw=true style, somehow or other, or the thing opens gates of hell...
asciilifeform: (i.e. does not properly plug the abstraction leak of unix idjicy, which is the whole point of the proggy)
asciilifeform: 1 obvious solution, that iirc diana_coman at one point resorted to somewhere, is to discard the 'librariness' and make the thing a 'put this in your src' type of lib, rather than linkable one. but i ~like~ linkable/separately-compilable static libs.
asciilifeform: and errything else i've written worked a++ as them.
asciilifeform: aanyway i'ma stop here for nao, lest head expload.
asciilifeform bbl,meat
a111: Logged on 2018-10-26 02:18 asciilifeform: my current hypothesis is that we're literally the only folx ever to bake static libs (i.e. in .gpr, for Library_Kind use "static"; ) .
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-26#1866276 << more like a wrapper on paths, i guess. though pretty sure you can have longer than 255 chars.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-26 02:26 asciilifeform: my only remaining notion here is that possibly gotta implement a 'paths' lib ! i.e. would represent paths as arrays of permanently fixed length , 255 octets, iirc this is the max permitted on unixlikes.
asciilifeform: oh hah, rtfm'd, and yes, 4096 byte paths, 255 ~filename~ max.
asciilifeform: on top of this, i'm thinking all of this spackle, oughta be unified, the paths, open(), udpism, tempism, etc. and eventually rolled into tmsr.gnat .
asciilifeform: is imho where it belongs.
asciilifeform: and then the pieces can interop properly.
mircea_popescu: really, open() should be rewritten.
asciilifeform: current gnat standard lib is a jawdropping zoo of broken shit. e.g didjaknow there is a sad bignum lib in there ?
mircea_popescu: yes, actually.
asciilifeform: and a full snobol interpreter.
asciilifeform: and fuck knows what else.
mircea_popescu: went "let's then compare alf's thing to this" ran away
asciilifeform: i actually started in '16 with attempt to terraform it; promptly barfed
asciilifeform: just as started udp thing by going 'hm wai not fix gnatsockets' and... ~lost~ month
asciilifeform: i'd almost go so far as to specifically disrecommend study of the stock standardlib, it is actively bad for health
asciilifeform: just pour petrol, flick bic.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-26#1866299 << whole point of spackling, 'rewrite' open(), mmap(), etc, to somehow satisfy the idjit kernel without permitting the retardation to leak upstream to own proggy
a111: Logged on 2018-10-26 03:06 mircea_popescu: really, open() should be rewritten.
asciilifeform: ( bvt's point re inet_addr applies here -- the actual syscall in fact demands a tardstring, i.e. nulltermed )
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