asciilifeform: ( only to then contract 'phantom' )
mircea_popescu: ~all~ nerve terminations can itch ; only skin nerve contains the "scratched" response.
mircea_popescu: soothes, but not scratches. the problem with scratching is that the loop completer is only implemented in skin.
mircea_popescu: this is a good point. heroin addict cold turkey itches INSIDE THE VEINS.
BingoBoingo: Hedonistic adaptation, they always itch. Can't care
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: how does that scratch the itch of life tho. if 'want to get along', why not eat pistol sooner rather than later
mircea_popescu: erryone got a compass. however, the two most widely sold models point squarely to Mom and own dick.
BingoBoingo: What, the JWZ's just wanna be, wanna get along
asciilifeform: what i never had ~any~ grasp on is the folx without ~any~ compass.
asciilifeform: even prior to republic, asciilifeform had a rudimentary compass, where 'comp would be a nifty item if it actually worked, nao where are there any people with half a brain who might care to see it fix'
mircea_popescu: as you never put any deliberate effort into studying such, your only model is built passively and as you've been spending less and less time in the soup...
asciilifeform suspects that his mental model of heathen is actually ~deteriorating~ with time
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> also tru. i have nfi for instance re whether e.g. Framedragger , halted << iirc hooked on socialism?
a111: Logged on 2018-11-03 15:04 mircea_popescu: there he sits, remote in hand, "checking to see if there's anything interesting on the tv". are we ready to entertain him yet ? or does he come back later ?
asciilifeform: still puzzled re why reappeared if never bothered to read log.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-25 00:32 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i highly recommend it, right now you're in approx the position of that random fella who sat down in a cargo plane and took off on a lark
a111: Logged on 2018-09-25 00:30 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: ever read the #trilema logs ? or just this minute found it
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform reviewing history, there's a lot of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1853976 http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1854006 http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1854010 http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1854019 and so following. now, as a factual matter, the dood DID NOT give a shit, september to february. may i ask for my own curiosity what informs the "teachable" part in "teachable noob" ?
phf: it feels more sophisticated with an "i" in there
phf: mircea_popescu: is the idea that message like logotron will render it as just "logotron" in html?
lobbes_field: Fwiw when I first started reading logs/trilema in 2014, I alternated between lost/confused/disturbed/intrigued. Then I stopped reading entirely for almost 6 months. Then finally it "hit me like a shit ton of bricks (tm)" and I realized I -had- to start doing (i.e. there was no choice if I wanted to actually make a mark on the world)
mircea_popescu: whether you're willing to confront this or not, it's still factual that ~you~ wrote ffa at least ~in part~ because republic, and left to your own devices entirely you'd conceivably be http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892360 to this very day!
mircea_popescu: but still, by the time the one important thing, important to the exclusion of all others, was NEVER mentioned... something's wrong. i mean, just like http://trilema.com/2018/the-republic-without-mp/ except in the flavbour of... the republic without republic ? what possible sense does this make ?
asciilifeform: seems like mircea_popescu's method beats the 'soft' 1 tho -- better that heathen shits himself outside of the gate than in
mircea_popescu: i am not saying here you must always lead with the http://trilema.com/2016/cat-vorg-adnotated/#selection-145.1-145.46 (tm) or the equally celebrated http://trilema.com/2018/heres-something-you-dont-see-nearly-often-enough/#selection-25.0-25.85 (tm).
mircea_popescu: me either.
asciilifeform: also tru. i have nfi for instance re whether e.g. Framedragger , halted
mircea_popescu: so then. "convo dun move no moar after that" means ~little. spyked was reading trilema early enough, as evident in the various antiqua he can drag in. then... convo moved no more after that... for what, eyars ? and then it moved.
mircea_popescu: seems both produce the same amt of noob, ie , 0, but 2 produces less negratings. still better neh ?
asciilifeform: not for so long as we dun need the new spleen cells for anyffin.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 16:30 mircea_popescu: the republic both wholly owns and actually made "their town", as well as themselves and everything else. the relationship is exactly of the nature of http://trilema.com/2018/heres-something-you-dont-see-nearly-often-enough/#selection-119.75-119.401
asciilifeform previously tried in the style of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-05#1892794 , but heathen's transformer windings tend to saturate and 'wtf, didja escape from nuthouse' and convo dun move no moar after that.
asciilifeform: funnily enuff , the verisimilitude fella's parting words were approx 'but wtf IS tmsr, can you give me gist at least!'
lobbes_field: The difficulty to be able to give 'just the gist' is a good sign of something of substance
mircea_popescu: it also happens to be exactly the inverted image of success, culturally.
lobbes_field: Anyways, I generally agree that there exists the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-22#1804603 problem (though, I'd argue the experience is not exclusive to pantsuit, but for anyone brought up in the usual 'amatuer' environment of usgistan)
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 17:35 asciilifeform: unwashed heathen who reads e.g. spyked's post, will understand 0.
lobbes_field: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-05#1892833 << fwiw I've been (slowly) baking a "Why TMSR?" (In style of Mocky's 'why ada?') post that is to be aimed at a heathen audience.
asciilifeform: hm lobbes_field didntcha rate the field nick earlier ? ougtha work on own steam >
asciilifeform: by the megabyte, even..
asciilifeform: btw at one pt i tried to read the pile of strange gabriel_laddel left in his smoking crater. was not able to make sense.
mircea_popescu: but anyway, on the other lobe, if it does make a difference i will declare that i'm absolutely not wilfully persecuting alf descendants.
asciilifeform: i suppose they left dissectable corpses
asciilifeform: they did ??
mircea_popescu: you know, when it comes to http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-05#1892810 hanbot 's actually the champ so far.
mircea_popescu: i don't even see the problem with this. though i must confess midly curious as to why it manages to occupy your time.
mircea_popescu: 2) none of those other cells like intestinal cillia, or muscle smooth and striated, or neuron, axon, whatever does anything measurable to enlarge the spleen. 3) thus therefore it can be concluded that properly speaking, the only things growing spleen are the spleen itself.
mircea_popescu: so, ultimately, the logic here goes thusly : 1) of all the parts of living animal, i choose spleen to be defined as "only relevant part", arbitrarily. because i really like spleens and i don't really understand anything besides them nor do i wish to or see why i should have to ;
asciilifeform: to take 1 instance, say, the 'penetrate china' problem.
asciilifeform: ( in selected cases, e.g. where bernstein prefers to smoke crack rather than showing up , can discern. but their song is sung , not much to add to'em )
asciilifeform: whether 'not grown', or 'not deigns to show face', cannot discern.
asciilifeform: or for that matter the direly needed biznisgenius.
mircea_popescu: because we're still causes not purposes and all that. who the fuck gives a rat's ass about "what will be".
mircea_popescu: in short : the point here is that we control ~the process~ of education, not ~the outcomes~ of education.
asciilifeform: i dunthink i've the req'd yoga level of yet to make sense of this.
asciilifeform: so, what's the implication, why do we even need working tech, why not sit around and smell own farts like aristotle & co ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ave1 managed to deliver a 50% cut in cpu cost, nonetheless (fixed inlining).
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and why do they have to ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: also speaking of harem in the general case ( rather than strictly mircea_popescu in particular ), observation is narrowly 'no one yet reported that he trained a harem chix to work on mechanicals'. afaik.
mircea_popescu: and then b) why and wherefore is "work" defined in terms of "ffa improvements" ? thing's not even supposed to be ~improvable~.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 16:22 mircea_popescu: think of the whole opposability angle, will you. 1. alf : "your summaries suck" 2. bimbo "master, is this true ?" now i'm stuck. i'm not going to do a 3.b. "yes, because i like him" and i can't do a 3.a. "yes, because ~SOMETHING~" as the something's an undefined symbol.
mircea_popescu: rather a) harems are by their nature private, and consequently the ~outermost limit~ of your interaction with another's will be along the lines of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-19#1851696 discussion.
mircea_popescu: our problems currently flow around the strong rocks of "there's a bunch of engineers and 0.epsilon businessmen", and the solution to them eminently will not be in the vein you contemplate.
mircea_popescu: except the situation is exactly reversed : it's not nicoleci that's expected to improve on ffa, it's you that's expected to improve on http://trilema.com/2018/how-things-have-changed/#selection-489.0-501.257
mircea_popescu: in the sense of, "the only surviving island of non-(engineeridiocy) is this here harem, and further, as part and parcel of my continued and systematic efforts to ensure failure, not only do i perceive this as a substantial lack of everyone else, but instead i'll propose that taking a sufficiently narrow view of the matter, it could almost be said the lacking parts don't even exist" ?
asciilifeform: can't propose so far as to 'set goal', but will observe that the net # of mechanical moving parts currently fielded that came out of harem, is afaik 0.
asciilifeform: i cannot speak for that of other folx.
mircea_popescu: whether he ever ends up euler or not, 5yo child is math-educable, provided that every time his mother goes "oh, poor darling shouldn't have to" she gets a black eye.
mircea_popescu: are we talking here of "educable, as the process" or are we talking here of "educable, as to a certain goal" ?
asciilifeform: i aint about to try an' tell mircea_popescu how to use his trained meats. but will remain skeptical that any trainable in the sense asciilifeform contemplates, until see with own eyes, is all.
asciilifeform: we already iirc did the a:'so how many solved the ffa puzzlers' m : 'i wouldn't waste a precious trained gurl on such dirty works' thrd, dun have to replay.
mircea_popescu: once that's off the ground, as many as one third of the girlies are perfectly educable.
asciilifeform: if there's a seekrit reserve of'em somewhere, asciilifeform not found yet.
mircea_popescu: in no small part because of the misperception that education is something that'll bend to fit them
asciilifeform: educable folx seem to be pretty thin on the ground tho.
mircea_popescu: and a valid concern, at that, education's an important part of the function of oxford.
asciilifeform: unwashed heathen who reads e.g. spyked's post, will understand 0.
mircea_popescu: then again, 0 apparent awareness of the tmsr -> usg relationship is as fine a symptom as can be had, to the best of my knowledge.
asciilifeform: can't find what to dispute, tho will note that redditus-detector like any other detector oughta stay in calibration, if it's set off by gust of wind, it's not a detector at all
mircea_popescu: this is why even the whole castle thing ever exists, to decouple the "well, kid needs to be able to practice his restaurant eating skills sometime" with the obvious "if there's one single further kiddy squeal out chez maxim half the seats will empty up"
mircea_popescu: eventually you have to compare the marginal gain from "1 of maybe coupla thou noobs with working hands alive" with the marginal cost from "if i read one more redditline in the tmsr log ima tune it out".
mircea_popescu: THEN there's all the people who aren't my slaves, who STILL fucking read each line of this here log. also "doesn't take anything" ?
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 13:50 diana_coman: asciilifeform, I must admit I fail to see *what* did the guy actually contribute; moreover he asked as far as I can see signalling questions, nothing more; granted, they were related to Ada but that's about the only positive I can find in the whole log I had to go through; perhaps it's simply too early for him to be here? maybe first have something done and only then come and show it?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-05#1892739 << this is no small matter ; i ~expect~ a number of my own slaves to read each and every fucking line of this here log. it "takes nothing" to read a line until you start multiplying the lines and the readers. but what choice do they have, right, they're my slaves, if i order them that's an end to the matter.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-03 21:04 mircea_popescu: spyked nice article! it might even end up the current linkpoint for the various http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-25#1889920 lost souls, "here, we know the future" item.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu had a http://trilema.com/2016/how-to-participate-in-the-affairs-of-the-most-serene-republic/ , since marked obsolete. i suspect state of the art is still 'read log for year and come back if grasped'
mircea_popescu: if you want to change anything, change the thing where you fail to mention to kids that there's such a thing as sex until well after they've either been undone by it or somehow, through no fault of your own, survived.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 22:13 mircea_popescu: much unlike naggum's mythical perl, doods sit around doing nothing all day with their reward circuitry so blownout, they literally fail to understand that no, "your message was too long" is an inacceptable reaction to the situation where "my phone is uselessly broken"
mircea_popescu: and then they don't, because http://trilema.com/2017/the-practical-costs-of-hallucinated-freedom/ still very much a thing, and slaveworld mindset very much still http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892453 and so on.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: usually i give'em a link to the log, where can read this & other likbez at leisure.
mircea_popescu: no. that this here is the republic, which is the all-sovereign, whereas the "united states government" is a tax dodging unrecognized group of social misfits, and so following.
mircea_popescu: hey phf ben_vulpes and, i guess Framedragger : can i prevail upon you to have (just one) logotron recognize [url][anchor] syntax and render it as <a href=url>anchor</a> instead of the literal ?
mircea_popescu: the only thing*
mircea_popescu: people visit the senate as a museum all the time, even schoolkids manage it alright. but they do it ~knowing where they are~, it seems to me you do an orc grave disservice if you don't even mention a thing such a town may exist, then take him there. obviously naive extension of whatever shiteating passes in his wilderness will get him thrown out.
mircea_popescu: one before they even understand this thing at all is.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-05#1892747 << this is a proper question, if not one easy to answer. i believe spyked is correct in http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/082-tmsr-schedule-i.html#selection-55.152-55.393 ; i will not go as far as to say "noob must only be invited at senate once he, like bunyan's hero, understands this is literally the only that does or could matter". nevertheless, it is evidently premature to invite any
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in 'thought we hit bottom but then heard knock from below' in heathendom, https://archive.is/lFXpf << a chowdhra type Officially calls for nobus to be made Official doctrine
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'ma bring larvae in strictly once they pupate, as discussed earlier with diana_coman .
a111: Logged on 2018-11-30 04:52 mircea_popescu: next shit out of your dumb mouth fails to string match apologizing for being quite so fucking stupid, i'ma fix the negligence whereby you can still speak here.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 22:13 mircea_popescu: much unlike naggum's mythical perl, doods sit around doing nothing all day with their reward circuitry so blownout, they literally fail to understand that no, "your message was too long" is an inacceptable reaction to the situation where "my phone is uselessly broken"
mircea_popescu: now you tell me how you distinguish between case http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892453 and case ~everything this dood spewed. there's http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-30#1876356 on the record, and i wasn't kidding then, either.
mircea_popescu: the republic both wholly owns and actually made "their town", as well as themselves and everything else. the relationship is exactly of the nature of http://trilema.com/2018/heres-something-you-dont-see-nearly-often-enough/#selection-119.75-119.401
a111: Logged on 2018-11-03 15:04 mircea_popescu: there he sits, remote in hand, "checking to see if there's anything interesting on the tv". are we ready to entertain him yet ? or does he come back later ?
mircea_popescu: #trilema is the forum of the most serene republic, not "an irc channel" or whatever other http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-03#1869074 -bred nonsense / "consumers have come to expect", and i don't give shit one whether the yokels think they have or think they haven't one in "their" town.
mircea_popescu: besideswhich, that "some point", whenever it was, certainly was not later than say http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-14#1834669 -- a year ago is ancient history at the rate we go.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no but listen, this "republic ?! we ain't heard of no stinkin' republic here in bedford, indiana!" quaintness might've been at some point even tolerated -- but it was always ~tolerated~, and in the terms of "oh, check out this moron".
deedbot: lobbes rated lobbes_field 1 << my handle for when I'm in the $saltmines
asciilifeform: incidentally this is a feature that used to be standard on 'adult' comps, but was lost in the pc babel of 1980s
asciilifeform: on hardwarized ffa variants, this output is to be connected to either an actual bell, or at least red 'sad' lamp.
asciilifeform: ( this is ~already~ true, simply not yet connected to the bell. )
asciilifeform: in the 'battlefield' release, all exceptions will be caught by handler that prints 'iron is damaged, replace immediately'
asciilifeform: ( typically this is where an arithmetic has been proven not to overflow, the overflow is connected to a Word of 'NoCarry' type, i.e. whose range is 0 .. 0 . )
asciilifeform: on that subj, attentive ffa reader will notice in certain places asciilifeform marked in comment 'cosmic ray resistance' . this indicates mechanisms where there are two or more separate pieces that ensure a correct computation (or death with alarm bells) if somehow bit flips , when this is inexpensive.
asciilifeform: they do make elementary mistakes in calling coad 100x moar obvious tho, and therefore are a win imho.
asciilifeform: re preconditions : theoretically they allow for certain optimizations ( mythical 'sufficiently smart compiler' could infer that various range checks cannot be violated if precondition holds ) but afaik our gnat doesn't do this, and i'm not certain that i'd like it if it did
diana_coman: well, I really started with 2005 but then I had to upgrade, hence my "I need". It's not blindly,no.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: fwiw i didn't end up on 2012 blindly, actually walked the feature ladder and consciously picked.
asciilifeform: truly vintage (ada-83) won't eat ffa, there is use of 'in out' parameters.
asciilifeform: ( theoretically will build on a 2005 or prior adatron, if they are removed, if one must. )
asciilifeform: re ada2012, that was actually a good q, and i'll answer it for the log : ffa in fact uses preconditions, a 2012 knob.
asciilifeform: the puzzlers aint actually that painful imho.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: posssibly i oughtn't to graduate'em till they solve all the ffa homeworks.
diana_coman: but that's the point: side-channels are permissive, #trilema is not; and on the sharp end of it, coming in too early can result in negrate
asciilifeform: eh if mircea_popescu says 'you aint ready to graduate kindergarten' i aint about to dispute an' 'no, let's graduate'im to 1st grade'. was curious re the logic, is all.
diana_coman: fwiw my current (even recently updated!) rule for "when to invite" is ~ "when they are either asking intelligent questions in side-chan already OR have made something useful OR have a concrete, interesting proposition explored first in side-chan"
asciilifeform: diana_coman: so apparently he hadn't read all 7 yrs of log. tho mircea_popescu did not say that this was why got the boot.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 01:40 verisimilitude: Let's seque to a related topic: What do you think of the Suckless crowd, asciilifeform? I read their mailing list and it's interesting to see how everything UNIX already provides is good and natural and how anything that violates the sacred tenants whatsoever is evil and bloat.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, for my curiosity: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-05#1892640 -> how is this ANY different from all the other "hey guise, I'ma signal nao" ; by now the "what do you think of X" is almost a signal in itself
asciilifeform: ( once they have magnum opus and not prior ? )
diana_coman: there is both need and space for more hands; but their training is to happen in the castles-channels, not directly in #trilema; that's my current understanding at least
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i.e. we have all the hands we'll ever want ?
asciilifeform: i dun recall having myself walked in with a mega-contribution on day1 either
diana_coman: asciilifeform, I must admit I fail to see *what* did the guy actually contribute; moreover he asked as far as I can see signalling questions, nothing more; granted, they were related to Ada but that's about the only positive I can find in the whole log I had to go through; perhaps it's simply too early for him to be here? maybe first have something done and only then come and show it?
asciilifeform: maybe coupla thou noobs with working hands alive; i catch 1 in the wild, and mircea_popescu uses for target practice, i dunget.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i gotta admit i'm baffled, d00d asked re whether i used ada2012, that's breach of etiquette ?
mircea_popescu: There's really no need for pompous assholes vomiting their self importance all over the log. Dude hasn't read at the very least the basics, can't ~possibly~ be fucking welcome here, let him go to reddit or whatever an' be happy there.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform Would you do me a favour and drill into the randos some basics of etiquette before inviting them over / rating them ?
verisimilitude: I'm looking through more of these Ada links you provided earlier, asciilifeform; do you not use Ada 2012?
mircea_popescu: why's he voice himself on a different nick then ?
mircea_popescu: next clever dork gets the ban.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that was the one ! ty
a111: Logged on 2014-10-21 19:27 mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2009/inchipuiti-va/ << this is incidentally great reading on the topic, albeit in languages.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 22:58 asciilifeform: hm where was that mircea_popescu piece re the magick furniture..
asciilifeform: !#s dip them
asciilifeform: wonder if the marketwizards knew.
lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-02#1891494 << as of now, no. I would like to see this built, but I have other items to get to first (http://blog.lobbesblog.com/2019/01/hopper-update-january-2019/)
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 16:38 mircea_popescu: incidentally, either spyked or lobbes what do you need to make a complete gutenberg.org copy ? it IS going away, for one thing the initiator guy died and for the other thing, with their world-famous http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-15#1627828 there's no way they'll stay online all that long.
lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892264 << looks like spyked is going to take care of it (though, I dun mind rsyncing it as well) >> http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/082-tmsr-schedule-i.html#selection-201.0-213.84
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lol is there a pill for 'abstinent' from nail-biting also
asciilifeform: oughta become apparent soon enuff, whether fella's hands grow from right organ.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in other lulz, "Medical uses Varenicline is used for smoking cessation. A meta-analysis found that less than 20% of people treated with varenicline remain abstinent from smoking at one year."
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: he lives there orig, seemed ready to be introduced to other folx, as adaist. i expect will mostly lurk for the foreseeable fyootur.
mircea_popescu: suppose you move over to #asciilifeform then ? because EXACTLY as the topic says, if you don't know where you are, you shouldn't be here.
asciilifeform: because he understands the arithmetic.
asciilifeform: a student who reads & understood the thing, oughta be able to 'compile' with bare hands, using nothing but hex editor, for any iron he is given.
asciilifeform: ffa in particular is intended as , among other things, a didactic demonstration of what means 'fits-in-head'.
asciilifeform: but if author failed to consciously commit to this constraint, in general the resulting work will ~never~ fit-in-head.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: 1st step is to actually impose on yerself the constraint, 'what i am writing ~is to fit in my head~. then can proceed to help other folx fit into ~theirs~.
asciilifeform: if system does not 'fit in head', it does not even make sense to ~pose the question~ re whether it is bug-free.
asciilifeform: rather, you want first a :
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: field is not at the 'let's discover immortality' stage; but at the 'start fucking washing hands and not drilling well right next to latrine' stage.
verisimilitude: That's what all of these C ``security'' features are.
verisimilitude: I've long thought it's reasonable to exert great effort to make a system perfect, where possible; it's the ideal, but maybe not practical. Perhaps the more interesting question is when to stop when you exert so much effort, but have something that can never be made perfect, by design.
asciilifeform: otherwise you , yes, 'quit drinking' but started instead heroin.
asciilifeform: typical 'type 1' fail is the various 'safety' bolt-ons to c/cpp, where yes you can use 'smart pointer' kludge but old barbaric 'dumb' is still permitted (and if you want nontrivial proggy, ~mandatory)
asciilifeform: 'stop using' is generally the correct solution to all sortsa problem. trick is that you gotta 1) ~actually stop~ 2) not immediately replace the excised idjicy with a new one
verisimilitude: I'll give credit to st, which is a decent terminal emulator, but I'm not impressed with Suckless in general. They're recently combating a bug with some X font nonsense caused by stupid Unicode glyphs; their solution is to stop using the X font nonsense entirely, which will apparently cause its own issues.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: there are other 'old unix' cargo cults in the historic record, also; all are quite similar to cat-v , near as i can tell.
asciilifeform: ( at one time, they had a fella with a working brain involved, then he vanished, and what remained grew over with fungus. )
asciilifeform: ^ there we go
verisimilitude: Let's seque to a related topic: What do you think of the Suckless crowd, asciilifeform? I read their mailing list and it's interesting to see how everything UNIX already provides is good and natural and how anything that violates the sacred tenants whatsoever is evil and bloat.
asciilifeform: fact is, even long before lispm, on the old cdc mainframes, buffer overflow was impossible.
asciilifeform: and naturally the idiot camp splits into the 'useful idiots', who are physiologically incapable of having a clue, and the purposefully-mendacious charlatans, who know exactly where 'exploitable' comes from and ~like~.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: the zero-terminated string more or less single-handedly created the 'comp security' pseudo-industry
asciilifeform: ( and with no sign of the inteltards 'waking up' to abandon it )
asciilifeform: or, say , the spectacular idiocy of 'branch prediction', currently racking up cost comparable to chernobyl
asciilifeform: 'devout' c programmer is moar or less synonymous with 'brain damage'. these are the people who think 'typed words are expensive' but think nothing of billion+ transistor in current pentium for tlb cache (so winblows can run 5% faster) .
feedbot: http://bimbo.club/2019/02/philosophical-transactions-for-the-months-of-june-july-and-august-1715-account-of-books-ii/ << Bimbo.Club -- Philosophical Transactions. For the months of June, July and August, 1715. - Account of Books - II.
verisimilitude: I've had or seen a number of discussions concerning such high-level machines with C programmers and whatnot. It's comedic. A C programmer will be the first to prove how type-checking in hardware and other things most assuredly result in some minute loss of efficiency or power or this or that and so is bad, but then turn around and discuss how brilliant the zero-terminated string is and how it's not that inefficient.
asciilifeform: on top of this, there's a coupla kilometer of thread in the #t logs re what made the thing interesting.
asciilifeform: for instance, the vendor docs are widely mirrored, e.g. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/symbolics/
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: 80% of what there is to be learned from the thing, can be learned without access to working unit
asciilifeform: the basic approach is not only sound, however, but the only ~possible~ sound approach -- you bake a cpu that 'understands types', as discussed in e.g. http://www.loper-os.org/?p=46 and http://www.loper-os.org/?p=55 , and go up from there.
asciilifeform: (in particular , the cost of storage)
asciilifeform: much of the complexity in the bolix system is, in light of modern tech, unnecessary, it was muchly constrained by the limitations of the period tech
asciilifeform: 1980s usa; they built machine (and using vertical integration of own tooling, for not only os dev but pcb & ic cad etc) precisely for this.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: you may find interesting to study the 1 example where someone actually ~did~ it for common lisp
verisimilitude: Sure; even though it's only a thought I've made little progress towards at the moment, care for a light description of how I'd do it for a Common Lisp?
asciilifeform: and ideally on iron that we bake, rather than x86.
verisimilitude: That's exactly the approach I've been wanting to bring about, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform described, in the past, the general shape of the recipe for this -- you write e.g. small lisp in coupla kb of asm, and large 1 on that, and an adatron on the latter... etc
asciilifeform: ( if yer using a heathen gnat, and a gcc5+istic one, it will output the familiar gcc5isms; but we aint using one )
asciilifeform: trinque: fwiw i routinely disasm what my gnat shits forth, and haven't yet found any 'surprises', so if ye olde gnat is indeed thompsonistic, it is quite subtle , rather than hammer-in-yer-face 'here's a MB of ??? that phones home to mars'
trinque: yep, already need working vtools to run the bootstrapper, so it's not as if there isn't a list of requirements for build env
asciilifeform: ( it does in fact build own self , once built, so can relight the fire indefinitely )
asciilifeform: ( whether this wins over starting from empty, remains to be seen )
asciilifeform: trinque: possibly at some pt i'ma start to pillage the bolix adatron, for this .
asciilifeform: ( as it is, we have an active unresolved 'thompsonism' in the mix )
asciilifeform: the ultimate win would be to get something other than gnat ( say, an adatron implemented in cl... ) that can build something resembling a working gnat. but sadly i suspect this is yrs away.
trinque: considering a process that involves "bolt your hand-built gcc here" and then it rebuilds
trinque: asciilifeform: the lack of a binary-reproducible gcc really puckers when considering how to write an ebuild for ave1's gcc
verisimilitude: I'll be using Ada to build the practical, robust, simpler, and easy-to-distribute implementation of my machine code development tool, perhaps ironically enough.
asciilifeform: theoretically it may be possible to build it with a diff adatron, but gnat is the only openly published one
asciilifeform: this is consequence of the fact that gnat is written in ada.
verisimilitude: When I did look into building GNAT from source, I was told in the documentation I'd already need a working GNAT; does ave1's avoid this? Then again, I suppose I could just use the GNAT I alread have on this other machine for that, if it became too inconvenient to use both.
asciilifeform: so in principle it doesn't particularly matter what flavour of linux you're on (unless want to ~rebuild~ it, then will take a bit of sweat)
verisimilitude: I'll get to have extra fun, because the system with my editor is different from the system with the GNAT.
asciilifeform: most folx find that it takes them a coupla days to even get 'hello world' to ~compile~.
verisimilitude: The Ada program I have planned is in a similar way unconcerned with some of the more advanced features, because much of it is very concrete by now; it shouldn't even need to allocate memory until I have an undo and redo system in it.
asciilifeform: there is not presently a paper book that will teach you ~this~ lang, if you're ready to learn it you can do so from asciilifeform , diana_coman , et al. published works.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: for instance, i do not use the secondary stack, or any mechanisms which demand it; or any form of heaps ; or classes; etc
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: you will find that the ada used by asciilifeform , diana_coman , et al, is quite distinct flavour from what you see in barnes & in various corners of the net where published ada proggies (not so many) are found
asciilifeform: eventually cracked open some bookz and determined, over course of a year+, a subset of ada which roughly corresponds to 'c without the pointeristic retardation', and used this.
asciilifeform: i explored various alts (e.g. standard-ml sans gc) but found that if the lang produces a binary that cannot be cleanly disasmed and shown to functionally correspond with the source , also cannot in good conscience use such a thing.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: in particular , any system with gc is ruled out right off the bat, as you cannot plug timing sidechannel leak if you got gc in the mix.
asciilifeform: see Mocky's review in particular, he actually summarized the whole path that led to the thing
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: there are other langs with strong typing, but afaik ada is the only 1 where a) with actual standard b) doesn't drag along a gargantuan runtime that won't sit down in small single-chip boxes etc
verisimilitude: There's the saying one shouldn't learn a language that doesn't change the way one thinks; I figured if I would learn at least one language with keyword-based syntax, strong static typing, a lack of advanced metaprogramming, among other qualities, that I should learn Ada.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: you will find that most of the win from adaism is in the approach of thought that it encourages, rather than any mechanical aspect of the lang per se.
verisimilitude: I like the idea of writing software that handles all failure modes correctly, as awful as modern systems make doing so.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: if/when you want to swap the key, ask (politely) trinque , it's a manual process
verisimilitude: Alright; my key is registered. I suppose I'll just !!up myself next time, then.
asciilifeform: apropos of nuffin at all, asciilifeform observes that on the street where he lives , + weather inescapably means the background sounds of the day are ~hourly 'ding' of dropped wrenches
diana_coman: trinque, I'll add it to the list; what should I pack and send exactly, once it's done?
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 21:34 asciilifeform: imagine if programmers actually had to answer for their pollutants.
asciilifeform: grr can't find in o(1). but the unifying thread is, when tools of the 'soft' variety appears, all sortsa folx, not even necessarily stupid, became afflicted with the erroneous notion that they have '0 cost' because coad dun have mass and can be cribbed gratis
a111: Logged on 2015-09-02 22:09 mircea_popescu: there is clearly a problem here. ideal objects (such as software) are not comensurate with physical objects. this attempt to "engineer programs like screws" was a reasonable first hack at the novel an dunexpected problem,
asciilifeform: it was 'put to yourself the question' but in ro iirc
asciilifeform: hm where was that mircea_popescu piece re the magick furniture..
asciilifeform: ( they come in 9000 variant )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in asciilifeform's planet vise-grip is used for exactly 1 thing ( when working on ancient auto engine, to clamp the old dead hood lift piston in place... )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's the perfect tool for ONE job, as my recent header illustrates.