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(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: yes; what is the shift and what does it mean?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion: so then?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: is bitcoin worse money than precious metals?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: are fiat currencies at less risk of massive devaluation?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion: so then, did any of *that* change meanwhile?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion: while I think I get what & where you are coming from there, you are passing the decision there rather than asking to clarify; it's a very poor question on several levels really.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion: what was that decision based on ?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion: but note that there's a bit in your question that I fully don't comprehend and it's that "should"; how does it come in there?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: basically you'll have to break it down in less oracle-level questions, I don't feel quite that much of an oracle myself.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion: now that's a very loaded question, heh
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: btw, MP answered himself in quite clear terms the q re what was his role in TMSR
(ossasepia) diana_coman: ie sure, you can offer to wash your friend's car and he may agree to it but that's no "washing car service" and it can't possibly work if you are not *already* friends.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: it follows that it's at most a friendly /personal thing, not a service/business interaction, if that helps.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: it's a very...practical practicality, what can I say; also, pretty much the only one that really works for the best (ie most efficiently & effectively, so output vs expenditure, not "best" or whatevers)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: lobbes: what was the initial plan with the logbot and that server, I hadn't followed too closely and now I'm rather unclear on it.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion, jfw did you have some jwrd questions you wanted to ask?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-16#1021912 - fwiw, the initial reaction looked more like numb than anything else.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-16#1021909 - jfw, as you said it one line prior, there was no service but a "one-time offer"; now take it from there and follow it with me - if there's no service, than how could it be used? it's really as simple and straightforward at that (and the difficulty in seeing /accepting/working with this sort of very cutting, precise definitions is the "thinking too much" part)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-16#1021894 - what is this exactly? you know, don't do "some X" - if you take the time to say it, then say something more concrete at least
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: have some rest & we'll talk later, no worries.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-16#1021899 - this is not "being stoical about it" btw, quite on the contrary; I hope you are around this evening and I get to hear what you make of it all too and of moving forwards.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: does the above make sense?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: ... knowledge of the matter and even any private experience you might have does not, can not work as a *replacement* for that; in other words, it's true that someone *could* choose to go with you on this, but they would not be using a service because you haven't *yet* built that service; you probably *can* build it and I'd say you are capable of building it, sure, but it's not there and so it can't be used.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-15#1021857 - it's a very plain/concrete matter along those lines: on one hand, web wallets for all that they are otherwise have been *doing this service* (sure, together with ~everything else that comes with the way in which that doing is done, no argument there); on the other hand, you have *not* been doing this as a service (and that includes publicly, of course) and all your ...
(ossasepia) diana_coman will go and get some sleep, will be back tomorrow.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: ah, can I have deedbot in there, indeed?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: cool; I'll be around as usual from 7pm UTC and hopefully once the dust settles, there can be some clearheaded looking around, taking stock and deciding on concrete next step forward.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: I can't say there's anything concrete/precise I can promise at this point re future developments; I'd ask you though to speak up at any time and doubly so if there's something that makes you think you're wasting your time here - because then either it turns out it is indeed that so you know quicker and waste less time or it turns out it's not that and so either way, it's a win.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: yes on all the above indeed; all right, from my pov, I think those conversations have done a lot to clarify where things are; fwiw I do *not* intend to either pies in the sky or daydreaming; I do however allow for people's inexperience and learning because I don't see what other option there is anyway, tbh.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: re the OS series, do I take it then that the work remaining for the 1/2 last parts is in fact not yet done and so ofc, whether they get written or not depends on whether you see a concrete use to spending that time or not?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: that's pretty much it indeed; his obvious and your obvious.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: hm, do you equal mp's words with stan's?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: heh, that's the second "obvious"...
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: the trouble with "obvious" is that it depends on people's assumptions; and I'd much rather not make more assumptions than I absolutely must - they are quite an expensive (and explosively expensive too, quite like OS work!) thing.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: finally found at least part of the discussion thread though I recall it was more plainly put somewhere, hm.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: and what do/did you make of MP's "make the market" (that was my q in here)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I still don't see a. why does discussion of V-in-OS stall on busybox-or-not or even anything else b. why not finish the series if you worked on it anyway
(ossasepia) diana_coman: the more baffling was re the OS series that you stopped abruptly ; here's part 1 and part 2 of the same
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: there are a few questions I asked you and never got an answer on; can I get an answer of *some* sort - even if it's "that's an idiotic thing to ask because x"?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: ah, I recall that now; (a different one came to mind earlier on your prompt)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: I think re dangers and costs we are quite clear and for that matter experience-informed enough; do realise though that dorion doesn't have that experience (nor the same temperament for that matter, heh)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: (and I actually cut it away from server and on the client it wasn't supposed to be on my back)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: cs + ps surely; I don't recall the numbers by heart re cs.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: an OS might be more obviously so perhaps because possibly even the lowest cost is already quite big in itself but other than that, the dangers are the same.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: from the conversation above, it seems that production of ~any software is explosively expensive by its very nature
(ossasepia) diana_coman: well, re perfectly rational, I can only hope that at some point you two stop triggering one another's antibodies or something; but anyways, this is aside the conversation at hand.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I'll believe that I just missed it among the rest then.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: yes, but I wouldn't have been able to even articulate that indeed that was what you were looking for as such, before you just said it above
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: honestly, you are both piling there at one another your own baggages that come head to head and neither of them helps
(ossasepia) diana_coman: finally, in a paper from back in 1990 or thereabouts, I found something which both *does the sort of thing I want* and *actually works* ie it's made to work, not to "work"
(ossasepia) diana_coman: theoretically there are *plenty*; in practice, that plenty is more akin to "plenty of ~same thing that doesn't *work* unless you mean by work some very narrow case and shit"
(ossasepia) diana_coman: because it's also a mathematical problem on top of everything else, I went first for "make sure there isn't already some solution that actually works"
(ossasepia) diana_coman: there was no alternative there than "find something or think of something"
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: cs lacked a crucial link in the chain that we need for what we want to do
(ossasepia) diana_coman: this was from the computer graphics domain at large ie I read research papers and looked at tools and everything else until I got to the point I can almost tell the year a paper/work was produced on just from a quick scan
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: ah, this was not from inside crystalspace, no
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: the evaluation's cost can be reduced if one remembers that software is not apolitical pretty much - the approaches/cockroaches embedded as a result are way easier to spot than technical issues as such.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: and the *cost* there came mostly from filtering the mountain of shit that obscured and burried it, not from the thing itself.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: and banging on still re eulora (because well, that's what I work on indeed), I have recently unearthed something definitely useful
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: mhm, yes and no; ie the violent disagreement is with most recent predecessors (or perhaps several layers but NOT all the way to the root, no)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: it's not free even then; it's less costly, or perhaps in the best case it turns out overall in the green but the chances are slim
(ossasepia) diana_coman: it's not exactly out of nowhere I said already that premade computer "tools" are more of a drain than a gain, considered plainly as a category.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: ahaha, that "for free" reminds me that crystalspace we "copied for free", yes?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: as in everything, sure.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: I thought that's pretty much the only sort of place where one can ever have enterprises.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: imagery is perfectly fine though, don't worry.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: eh, don't use non-plain words, or I'll call trinque to tell you off for hubris, ok?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I don't know re expanse opening up to swallow anyone - that's why I like those shutdown buttons to work :P
(ossasepia) diana_coman: sure, not a difference as such from machine's point of view anyway
(ossasepia) diana_coman: do the stupid, they'll amplify that too.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: "what you want" but quite literally "what you did"
(ossasepia) diana_coman: my point re amplifiers is that they are *indiscriminate* amplifiers if you will - ie they will amplify not only w
(ossasepia) diana_coman: well yes, why I'm more inclined to view them as the anti-tool than tool.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: sure, I'm listening.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: at any rate, I agree that tool/set-of-tools distinction is not needed here as such.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: yeah, I'm not happy with its clarity yet, it's still too fresh in my head to fully come together.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: so re graphics, you either get "realistic rendering" on huge resources, meant for films/animations ie rendered once in huge detail and then screened whatever times; or you get the rasterized "here's the colour of every pixel because it's cheap"
(ossasepia) diana_coman: (and some pretty much missing entirely/lost on the way because of additional discretization of people too, similarly - there isn't anymore the case that you get in a group an wide range of approaches covering a whole interval and a meaningful average; what you get instead is a few points and so no possible average)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: there are clearly distinct categories instead with *huge gaps* in between them
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I'm still not happy with it but in the interest of time: look at computer graphics since I reviewed it to barf-level recently; there isn't a continuous field of ~everything from maths-driven to hand-drawn
(ossasepia) diana_coman is thinking, trying to extract something concrete
(ossasepia) diana_coman: heh, I didn't even mean that; I meant that it breaks continuity of ~any domain that it touches and (because of the power of amplification) it's a break that can't be reversed
(ossasepia) diana_coman: and I think the second part is quite important too
(ossasepia) diana_coman: well, I kept thinking of what I could even find as "use of computer" and the closest I could come would be indeed a sort of "amplifier and discretizer"
(ossasepia) diana_coman: initially I took it ~effectiveness of language use but on re-read I don't quite know if it fits.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: all right, let's leave it at that; re capacity for language - what do you mean there by capacity?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: "you need 10 years to master this hammer and then you'll be 1000 times more productive with it; until then, you'll hammer your fingers with it ~every 10th blow" sort of thing
(ossasepia) diana_coman: yes, in a word what happens there as far as I can tell is that the tool ends up packing both manufacturing complexity (ie the factory and full industrial chain) AND operational complexity that is often worse and esp so when it's the sort of implicit knowledge rather than explicit.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: yes, but the operating cost of the tool includes some less than visible/more difficult to measure costs, with some improvements of the tool
(ossasepia) diana_coman: pretty much the reason why I won't ever bother banging on a plain nail with the most efficient hammer ever, despite it being most efficient - it ends up asking of me more than the job is worth.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: that is there too but it's not what I mean; the point is "efficiency at use time" does not involve only the movement energy; basically if the tool is complex beyond a point or rather on a certain dimension/in a certain way, then it *also* requires as input complexity and that should be part of the equation
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: I've been actually re-reading the convo yesterday and there was for starters this bit that kept pinging at me - for one thing I think the "more efficient" is too narrowly taken there
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: all right; would you care to continue yesterday's discussion and get it to some conclusion?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: is the above wrong ?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: the way I see it, trinque made his point clear that a. he is allergic to any not-plain words b. he doesn't consider MP was right re making markets rather than using existing markets c. so far he doesn't like what he hears from dorion
(ossasepia) diana_coman: tmsr is dead and that's it; what may be moving further will be -if anything -something else.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: and I'll add *again* that no, I don't think there's any tmsr moving further
(ossasepia) diana_coman: the way I see it, dorion said his words and so now he'll have to go and do what backs them up (or not); then and only then, there will be anything to talk about anyway.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: to try and summarise so that we can perhaps move on for now:
(ossasepia) diana_coman: the point re talked to more outsiders is a good one and I think it was repeated to death in #t anyway; pretty much one of the huge fails of the dead-tmsr was exactly the lack of outreach.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: indeed, you don't just hope, no.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion: that is one of them but not the one I had in mind; and it was precisely re "there's no market" "you MAKE the market" ; trinque , do you recall it?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: do you recall the conversation with MP on the wallet-as-a-business? I can't seem to be able to find now the log-line.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: so on one hand that fact is not going away tomorrow; and on the other hand, that infrastructure is also not a matter of "just set to rebuild it".
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: in short, the conclusion after all those years is simply that such people do not exist anymore.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: he built it for people able to make use of it; there's plenty said re "place to defect to" for instance, surely you met that before.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: well yes, that is part of it.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: he built and maintained a whole infrastructure (and that is *more* than ever met the eye, especially the naive eye)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: hmmm, now I wouldn't put words in anyone's mouth but I can at least say what was *not* said and that is "come work with me and I'll fix your heads", lol (unless by fix you mean perhaps as in the final fix)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: are you talking above of tmsr-wot-relationships? (it just occured now that ...that might be what you are talking about, huh)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: do you take MP for a humanist now?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: well, if you already judged then what space? and you judged what - words? ok.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: can you give him some space so that he *shows* who and what he is rather than judging his words (inexperienced, granted) based on your *own* full history of what others did and how?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: basically when people start talking of own + others' egos, there's no win possible and it's moot from the start
(ossasepia) diana_coman: heh, except if you do that jsut for a relationship, it's also fail-by-means-of-giving-a-damn
(ossasepia) diana_coman: ... tools/wall indeed, that's all.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: well, for starters fixing people's heads is something that only the people in question can actually do for themselves; it links back to my point yesterday re this younghands project itself - it's not *I* who fixes anything even to the extent that or when it gets fixed in the slightest around here; it's always the person in question - all I can do is to provide the ...
(ossasepia) diana_coman: ... matter how well intended will be in the best case a repeat of the same failure (probably worse because time never stops for anyone)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: in addition to my remark above re impossibility and undesirability of "same thing" when talking of anything that rests on an individual as a leader, I'll reiterate that a review of the failed TMSR exercise and what came and what didn't come out of it, is absolutely mandatory first step to go *anywhere* further for real; lacking that, all that can come out of attempts no ...
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: not really, no.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: what would you say was "MP's job"?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-15#1021551 - while a name /label may stay conveniently (or even inconveniently at times) the same, the reality is that, to the extent that we are talking of leadership as opposed to bureaucracy, there's no full continuation of the "same thing" either possible or desirable really.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-15#1021536 - that "knew it was important" is key and surprisingly rare quality to be found otherwise, btw; that being said, it's *not enough* by itself.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion: I'll give people time to read, digest, ask you questions and say their mind otherwise generally.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw, did you figure out why is MP saying you don't have a wallet service to offer, basically?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: also, was your time occupied by the woman or did you occupy your time with her? depending on which of those you go for, it might make some difference re availability for anything else too.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: lolz, is it *that* time occupying that nothing else fits or what? anyways, set something concrete you'll deliver by next Sunday and do it.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: lobbes: I think your logbot missed some lines, you might need to resync with mine perhaps
(ossasepia) diana_coman: lobbes: yes, I would rather have the logs as posts on the blog *if the process is reliable*, ok? we can work through it so it gets there but get there it must.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: BingoBoingo: the point is to make sure your plan has solid foundation in actual facts that are relevant; building stuff in the real world based on what is there and not in the head, not sure how better to convey this.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: and tbh it all sounds to me dangerously in your head and mostly there at this stage; this being said I have no real idea re journalism and its market as such, as I already said several times.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: BingoBoingo: the question is the very same whether qntra or not-qntra ie is that a viable and well thought-out *business* plan or not; a rebranding may be a lot in your head but in practical terms is just a sweep of names on top of a website so it does ~0 practically in and by itself.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-14#1021276 - have you looked at what that "market" is worth, first of all? sure, it might look like anything and "escort ads pay" but looks are easy to make say anything.
(trinque) diana_coman: trinque: meant to say: yes please, I want deedbot with the wot centered on channel owner.
(ossasepia) diana_coman will be back tomorrow at 7pm UTC as usual.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: bwahahah, enjoy then!
(ossasepia) diana_coman: 8pm utc can work well, yes; it gives some earlier time to talk to others as needed too, so possibly for the best.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: ah, in that case, would you prefer to resume tomorrow? (otherwise I'm fine to work with that definition and from it)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I can kind of see it; I wouldn't have gone for it and right now with just this brief consideration (so without having thought it through at all really), it still seems to me way too high level really.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: why specifically/only language or do you mean that in a very wide sense?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: perhaps; I can see the point that it's interesting to the degree that one finds something useful to do with it (and perhaps furthermore, something that can't be done otherwise/not to the same extent); not sure if this is of much use though.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: well, it's not missiles!
(ossasepia) diana_coman: with a practical example - take blogs reading/writing with all the links and comments - is making use of that (the reading or the writing or both) - "wielding a computer" or not?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: dunno, why that and more specifically how/where do you decide "this is enough to feel like wielding a computer"?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: after all, is a rock a tool?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: that's back to active vs passive.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: heh; but on one hand that's the thing I was saying earlier re "what's the purpose of this thing called computer if you mean it's a tool" (with answer ~ ??); and otherwise, this comes yet back again to the initial difference - for me ~anything *can* be a tool, as it depends on the one wielding it, not on the thing.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: well, I have sorely tempted to throw computers out of the window a couple of times so certainly can wield; though still more as a poor hammer.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: at component level, sure
(ossasepia) diana_coman: normally my "computers are not clearly tools" starts from "what's their purpose if they are tools?"
(ossasepia) diana_coman: but I'd start from precisely my comment above that the input doesn't mean a significant difference re "change of internal state"
(ossasepia) diana_coman: hm, I can't say I have it all clear and haven't previously thought in those terms either.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I don't think they are ready-to-hand in that strict sense, no; not sure re degeneracy of contemporary computers ie possible but since for practical reasons this is what computers are today, either we talk of abstracts or we talk of them.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: (and yes, it applies to humans too!)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: hm, they blast themselves into a new state in that sense even *without input* so not sure in what sense there is the input relevant?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: ahaha, how do you mean perverse?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: there was the dubiousness of whether computers even qualify for "tool" in any sense (ie worse than a hammer for sure) but ok.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: might even add though that this is talking of the useful sort of complexity because otherwise ramping up costs for useless complexity is a very easy thing anyway.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: well, as the tool effectively packs more, it means that more went into it, yes; no possible other way there for sure.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I can see that, yes; supposedly an automated hammer would even fit the bill re less waste of input energy.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: what do you mean by complexity ramping in the hammer tool?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: well, for a simple thing actually it's ...balance perhaps? for any hammer ie the positioning of the handle
(ossasepia) diana_coman: tbh I think there are some that I'd consider to have quite some self-wovenness complexity - dunno if there's a different term for them than plain hammer in English
(ossasepia) diana_coman is now suddenly reviewing all the sorts of "hammers" she has ever seen or handled
(ossasepia) diana_coman: hm, do you mean what would complexity of self-woveness look like/mean for a hammer?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I'm back; and sure, go ahead, I'm listening.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: 2 minutes, I need to nip and get a jumper as I'm for some reason freezing here all of a sudden, ugh.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: trouble there being that "a human" runs into the wide range of capability of such projection if you consider all bipeds as human
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: I can see that point re idiots being the tools too; I did not aim younghands at idiots, quite on purpose; it's perhaps, a luxury, I can readily admit that.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: fat-fingered my client and ended up saying that in your chan, sorry.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: you seem to consider that the psychological posture is both fixed /cvasi-universal and relevant for how things should be made ; I can see the practicality of it for sure ie yeah, if you need to make 10 idiots do something then you'll fit the tools exactly to their idiocy, sure.
(trinque) diana_coman: you seem to consider that the psychological posture is both fixed /cvasi-universal and relevant for how things should be made ; I can see the practicality of it for sure ie yeah, if you need to make 10 idiots do something then you'll fit the tools exactly to their idiocy, sure.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I consider that the fundamentals about the object are the fixed thing; and then people come with their own psychological posture(s) that further they CAN change (if they are not idiots because that is what not being an idiot even mean - changing to make better use of stuff)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: does that make sense?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: considering the long-term plans as a "tool", right? you say "the observed psychological posture in my environment is that this is a tool for fetishizing"
(ossasepia) diana_coman: heh, and I think that quite gets to the difference in our views re "long-term plans are bad because idiots misuse them"
(ossasepia) diana_coman: ie I can use even a blade of grass as a "tool" - to tickle someone, or to annoy bugs, whatever
(ossasepia) diana_coman: but I don't quite grasp where the border /demarcation is
(ossasepia) diana_coman: hm, not quite sure; I can see hammer and skis as a sort of "tools" vs grass as ...dunno, not-tool?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: sadly, I would not consider myself familiar with it, no.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: sure, I'm listening
(ossasepia) diana_coman: let's link it back then, for clarity: there was the stated ~ "long-term plans are just fetishized and keep them from focusing on what needs to be done", correct?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: so now with those examples, you tell me, is the "planning/writing/those habits" that make them x and y?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: and some who went "you evil" and so one
(ossasepia) diana_coman: and for the same pushing, look at the results and compare
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I have pushed everyone to get some basic, minimal habits re interaction, accountability and so on
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: dunno if you are aware at all re this younghands project's history so far because possibly it gives already some practical examples
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: hm, there's some bit that didn't get over to you there
(ossasepia) diana_coman: no, it's not the fetish (or the long-term aim) keeping anyone from anything; it's their own idiocy keeping them from it and just latching onto the long-term plan if present or otherwise it will latch onto something else just the same.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: sure, they can use it as an excuse; they'll use anything else as an excuse for the same thing.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: and the trouble with taking stuff off the table because some will misuse it is that the same some will just misuse *something else*.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: it's meant as direction, nothing more.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: it's not plans of moonbase; it's final aim for moonbase as *direction*;
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: no fixation is meant or should happen,no, that's NOT what long-term is for,wtf; listen, if you are telling me that everyone is an idiot because you saw -and I'll grant you that you are right in that evaluation- only idiots, this does not change the utility of long-term plans.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: it's up to him to come with that chain; if he fails to, then he fails; and the fact that some will misuse /fetishize something, does *not* mean that the something is off the table; you can't protect anyone against themselves, I don't think so.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: do you consider you should never even consider more than right next step?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: long-term, not "tomorrow" nor "next step"
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: for one thing that was previous to end of tmsr; for the other it was even then long-term aim, is there something wrong with that?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: you looked at those things in detail from what I could see; and you reasoned on them; that's cause already to write it down and publish it, fully; it's not towards a purpose ("so that there will be an os" or whatevers); what am I missing ?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: I don't follow there; I get your from causes not towards purpose, yes; I get even "the future does not exist", yes; I suspect we see even that series differently in that I see it precisely from a cause while you consider it to be towards a purpose - and from here on I'm already baffled.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: what do you see as concrete output to come out of the review?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: what I don't understand is why wouldn't you finish that series since you started it and since you know what you want to say anyway? I don't see it chained to some choice (which I don't even think it's clear or possible to clarify *right now*)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: I can fully believe the aws and the likes indeed; there's also the significant part that republic failed to exist and so the whole context is changed and so far it hasn't even been reviewed as such; which is pre-requisite for *any* thinking of any related work, whether os or anything else anyways; I'll probably end up doing the review too since apparently nobody even considers it needed or something but that's besides the point.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: ah, you mean you don't know anyone who wants an os?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: hm? that didn't parse, from "do not know anyone who wants such a thing"
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: hope you don't mind me saying it but I'd say the trouble was not in the intention but in the communication.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: fwiw re os, I don't think it was ever meant to be a volunteer effort, no
(ossasepia) diana_coman: possibly that brings it up to date but ask away anything that's not clear
(ossasepia) diana_coman: that's where I was and what I was doing when I "volunteered" for smg
(ossasepia) diana_coman: and after that, pretty much re-started because nobody ever awaits for anyone 1.5 years or the like
(ossasepia) diana_coman: oh, and in 2012 I had a child too; that added the experience of 1.5 years of max 3 hours sleep per night (and broken sleep) on top of other things;
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I still stayed for one year because I had promissed it; and then I went away and did for the next years ~anything I was interested in *on the condition* that I find someone to pay me for it
(ossasepia) diana_coman: after phd, I got a post-doc position but I had had already quite enough (there's some pictures of me at various events and looking at my own expression there says it all but anyways)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: won't go the full story there, maybe I will sometime on blog but anyways, while phd stipends exist, they are not exactly huge or anything; still, compared to the thing in france it was way better.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: there were about 6 of us phd students in the same situation and we very nearly ended up sleeping in the street indeed for all sorts of mess reasons; still, got in the end a flat share.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: anyways, did that; there was further mess but in short ended up on another stipend for phd studies in north tyrol; without accomodation again and moreover, with some delay re money
(ossasepia) diana_coman: so yeah, perhaps not a shed but I'm not sure if much better (fwiw it *also* had as "view" a small window towards a narrow pit of a sort of "inner court" ; an ancient building etc.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: so I went there and managed to find somehow just about the cheapest thing possible (it was *everything* in one room and that room some 2x3m thing); my reasoning was that anyway I don't afford anything else and moreover, all the better motivation to spend my time at the uni on my project
(ossasepia) diana_coman: in last year, I further got 1 of the few places in a joint master program with a french uni; then got 1 of 3 places on a stipend of ~500 euros total to do my project in lyon (and there was NO acommodation provided or anything either)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: in RO university studies are without tax (if you pass the exam ie limited places); so I got in and got even some stipend for doing well enough
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: yes, I worked on my own; basically the full background is this:
(ossasepia) diana_coman: yeah, it's not re competition, just trying to answer your question
(ossasepia) diana_coman: to give a concrete idea - in the 80's my father went to the US and funnily enough to Texas (because petroleum industry); he recounted the moment when they got treated to some icecream - and they realised that the icecream cost about their whole salary for 2 weeks.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: fwiw I suspect if anything I possibly come (by necessity of place rather than anything else) from less money than ~everyone around here
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: no, I don't come from money, heh; there's on my blog eg http://ossasepia.com/2020/03/01/martisor/ and http://ossasepia.com/2019/10/21/and-i-wont-save-you-from-the-rats/ that might give some idea
(ossasepia) diana_coman: (it's in old smg reports so it can be dug up)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: btw, now that I went into this, I recalled that there were a few people rewarded with ssws for various useful bits and pieces - iirc jurov for instance
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I made it public too and people used it *to their benefit*
(ossasepia) diana_coman: so yeah, as a "volunteer" effort
(ossasepia) diana_coman: without pay and without prompting or support as such from anywhere
(ossasepia) diana_coman: then as a player I developed foxybot
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: right; in short: I started as a player like everyone else, back when chetty was smg's CTO (and btw she worked without direct pay, for SSW only)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: are you aware of the history re my involvement with eulora ? (I'm asking so I know where to start, no other reason)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: it's also known that stan for instance *rejected* the option himself (to bitch afterwards that he didn't get anything, without saying that he asked for way more than was reasonable etc)
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