#ossasepia | 2020-03-14

← 2020-03-13 | 2020-03-15 → ↓

jfw: trinque: I gotta run shortly, but one thing that occured to me: re http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-14#1021091 , do you take it as the 900mb that was the main part of the critique, or more a lack of clear or complete process documentation or testing (much like the wall I hit yesterday with MP)? Granted such a standard might be ~impossible when working with gentoo.

ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-14 00:16:11 trinque: and folks rightly balked at "wtf even is this, and you're claiming you have control of it?!"

dorion: trinque, thanks for engaging. I'ma give this a couple more reads over the next days and come back with any questions. right now I must call it though.

trinque: I'm winding down myself.

trinque: jfw: I gathered together a pile of shit, called it mine, and tried to feed it to people

trinque: they rightly balked.

trinque: I'm proposing you don't do the same thing

trinque: happy to pick this up again later.

jfw: aite, take care.

trinque: later y'all

dorion: diana_coman I didn't budget tonight's conversation in my plan for today. I have an appointment at 13:30 utc tomorrow and will have my plan for the week ahead done before 19:00 utc.

diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1021050 - trinque, what are you working on? after all this time I still don't have any clear idea at all, really.

ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-13 23:18:42 trinque: my time is limited, and I'm mostly allocated to getting my sad arse out of the gravity well I was born in.

diana_coman: dorion: works.

diana_coman: BingoBoingo: the more important point to take home re Qntra's current lack of economic activity and market value is that you have to aim specifically and work so that the future qntra DOES have such wonders or you might as well burry it now and save some time; you said you plan to run it as a business - the very meaning of that IS economic activity and market value.

ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-12 17:45:27 BingoBoingo: diana_coman: I will pursue Qntra as a business, if mircea_popescu will let me. Qntra is listed on MPEx and mircea_popescu does have more of the reserved block and likely more of the total equity than I. What happens depends on what he want to do: whether he wants to wait and see if my working the plan makes Qntra live, or if he wants to close out s.qntr in which case... what happens depends on what he wants and

diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1021064 - trinque , I confess that my perception doesn't fully match your stated perception here; for one thing I don't get at all how is that 4th piece now a matter of busybox-as-entire-userland position/decision, when according to your own [http://trinque.org/2020/01/20/a-republican-os-part-3/#comment-155][previous ...

ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-13 23:55:28 trinque: I perceive myself to have been very clear so far, but I'll save that for next.

ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-13 23:20:21 trinque: I'll write the 4th piece when y'all beat me out of my busybox-as-entire-userland position, or I yours

diana_coman: ... description], I was expecting a *discussion of how V enters the picture*, followed by a summary and a spec. It's clear that something's not clearly expressed or at least not clearly enough for me - why does a discussion of how V enters the picture require an agreement of position re only-busybox-or-not? and furthermore, why would a discussion of V-in-OS depend on such a choice?

diana_coman: trinque: is there some day & time when you can set aside some time-window so there is some predictable way to interact with you? I understand that you have very little time available and so a fixed and known-upfront window would make the most of it, I'd say.

diana_coman will bbl

diana_coman: this evening I'll be around from 8pm UTC most likely, instead of the usual 7pm.

trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-14#1021174 << if it were something of a joint effort, I'd say. one of the points I've been making is that it's not.

ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-14 06:27:54 diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1021050 - trinque, what are you working on? after all this time I still don't have any clear idea at all, really.

trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-14#1021179 << I'm willing to work with your gents here conditionally. One of the major conditions is that when they bounce into a defense mechanism they don't disappear from the keyboard for 20min.

ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-14 06:56:38 diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1021064 - trinque , I confess that my perception doesn't fully match your stated perception here; for one thing I don't get at all how is that 4th piece now a matter of busybox-as-entire-userland position/decision, when according to your own [http://trinque.org/2020/01/20/a-republican-os-part-3/#comme

trinque: and yeah, having a window within which we can all talk would be helpful, I think.

trinque: but go ahead and read that exchange with dorion and jfw if you will. I'm banging on about from-cause vs towards-purpose, and surely that doesn't come as a surprise.

trinque: I would also like to know what you think of what I've said re: hubris.

trinque: I do not wish to join any further grand crusades for skypie.

trinque: ploddingly simple process of coherent decisionmaking, pls & ty.

trinque bbl, will pop in around 3pm his time, 8pm yours.

diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-14#1021186 - I get it that it's not joint; I further have to infer though that it is secret; the reason why I asked is so that I get some idea re what you have most interest in, not so that there's some forced join of any sort; does this make any sense to you? can you at least clarify for me the reason for secrecy?

ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-14 11:25:16 trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-14#1021174 << if it were something of a joint effort, I'd say. one of the points I've been making is that it's not.

diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-14#1021188 - that is a most reasonable condition indeed; can you spell out for me your other major conditions?

ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-14 11:27:37 trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-14#1021179 << I'm willing to work with your gents here conditionally. One of the major conditions is that when they bounce into a defense mechanism they don't disappear from the keyboard for 20min.

diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-14#1021192 - while I call it differently for good reasons, I have already said that there's a need for a full re-think; it might not have been obvious, but that includes exactly your point there.

ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-14 11:31:59 trinque: I would also like to know what you think of what I've said re: hubris.

ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-12 19:01:53 diana_coman: dorion: to the extent that you want to do that, it can be, why not; but do realise that there's as always a whole context to it and as such, it will still need some re-think and some discussion and some wider planning.

ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-14 11:32:38 trinque: ploddingly simple process of coherent decisionmaking, pls & ty.

diana_coman: trinque: in short, I think we actually agree on fundamentals but we have interacted and communicated directly so precious little and so fragmented that it's very easy to end up in disagreements just for lack of clear shared terms (or clear understanding of one another's terms)

diana_coman: if it's any help, there are plenty of documented cases even of me and MP seemingly disagreeing most strongly on something - to only turn out after quite a heated conversation that no, we actually agree about the core of whatever it was.

diana_coman: anyways, I'll be back in the evening and looking forward to talking to you.

BingoBoingo: diana_coman: Thank you. "How to bring a newspaper into the economic loop" is indeed the substantial problem, and doing so without falling into a fiat-stupid thing post-Republic is a big problem.

feedbot: http://younghands.club/2020/03/14/rmd-week-20-plan-mar-14-20th-2020/ << Young Hands Club -- RMD week 20 plan, Mar 14-20th, 2020

jfw: I've got some ketchup to do today (sleep was a start) and won't likely be good for much chat. I can already say a Saturday review isn't happening.

diana_coman: BingoBoingo: figure out if you can find a solution or not as the sooner you decide (on significant grounds) either way, the better for sure.

diana_coman: jfw: all right; hopefully a Sunday review does happen though.

jfw: ack.

jfw: I'm noticing the passive voice I defaulted to there.

diana_coman: jfw: heh, well spotted.

jfw: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-14#1021188 - and yeah that's a quite reasonable condition trinque, even adjusting for the hyperbole. One way I can improve in the multi-party case is focusing on what's addressed to me before chewing on messages from others.

trinque: good afternoon/evening.

trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-14#1021174 << what do you do when you're not on IRC?

trinque: I'd have loved for the republic to be my entire day, but I didn't accomplish that.

diana_coman: hello trinque

diana_coman: as to what do I do, the condensed list would be: eulora; family & friends & assorted personal interests. Does this answer your question?

dorion: hi trinque.

trinque: diana_coman: I meanwhile attend to all manner of mind-numbing business outside anything remotely interesting to the republic.

trinque: dorion: hello

dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-14#1021188 - while several of your questions made me pause and think. the 20 min delay was honest to god freenode weather. first time since december I've had my connection dropped.

trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-14#1021179 << when I erupted on a few folks last year, I perceived that the L1 had degenerated.

trinque: dorion: I'll get over it then.

trinque: the degeneracy would take more than a few lines to digest.

trinque: but its fruits look like "I just wake up every day gee golly and do my best to bring about heaven on earth"

trinque: and the imitations of MP's affectations

trinque: I could go on.

trinque: I am not excluded from that degeneracy.

diana_coman: trinque: out of curiosity - do you include me in there too?

trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-14#1021183 << yes, and this is my first good faith step in that direction.

ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-14 06:58:29 diana_coman: trinque: is there some day & time when you can set aside some time-window so there is some predictable way to interact with you? I understand that you have very little time available and so a fixed and known-upfront window would make the most of it, I'd say.

trinque: diana_coman: less than most, but I imagine that if eulora is your main professional focus, that this comes with income of some form.

diana_coman: trinque: the terms are public in smg's reports, so that's not news

trinque: so in a sense, you're the best example of what was missing from everyone else's efforts.

trinque: of course.

trinque: how do you square this volunteer effort to "build an OS" with your enterprise?

diana_coman: trinque: it's also known that stan for instance *rejected* the option himself (to bitch afterwards that he didn't get anything, without saying that he asked for way more than was reasonable etc)

diana_coman: trinque: are you aware of the history re my involvement with eulora ? (I'm asking so I know where to start, no other reason)

trinque: I haven't implied that mp ought to have bankrolled everything in sight either.

trinque: that would've been stupid.

trinque: diana_coman: might as well refresh me

trinque: so I have context

diana_coman: trinque: right; in short: I started as a player like everyone else, back when chetty was smg's CTO (and btw she worked without direct pay, for SSW only)

trinque: yeah, that much I remember

trinque: and real quick, current events don't suddenly make stan my hero. far from it.

diana_coman: then as a player I developed foxybot

diana_coman: without pay and without prompting or support as such from anywhere

diana_coman: so yeah, as a "volunteer" effort

diana_coman: I made it public too and people used it *to their benefit*

trinque: and you fed yourself how during this time?

trinque: you come from money? or did you work elsewhere?

diana_coman: btw, now that I went into this, I recalled that there were a few people rewarded with ssws for various useful bits and pieces - iirc jurov for instance

diana_coman: (it's in old smg reports so it can be dug up)

diana_coman: trinque: no, I don't come from money, heh; there's on my blog eg http://ossasepia.com/2020/03/01/martisor/ and http://ossasepia.com/2019/10/21/and-i-wont-save-you-from-the-rats/ that might give some idea

diana_coman: fwiw I suspect if anything I possibly come (by necessity of place rather than anything else) from less money than ~everyone around here

trinque: eh, I've lived in an actual shed in pennsylvania winter

trinque: but this isn't a competition, of course

diana_coman: to give a concrete idea - in the 80's my father went to the US and funnily enough to Texas (because petroleum industry); he recounted the moment when they got treated to some icecream - and they realised that the icecream cost about their whole salary for 2 weeks.

trinque: but you might imagine how intent I am on not repeating the experience.

diana_coman: yeah, it's not re competition, just trying to answer your question

trinque: point remains that you probably had some other means of sustaining yourself while at botworks

trinque: of course

diana_coman: trinque: yes, I worked on my own; basically the full background is this:

diana_coman: in RO university studies are without tax (if you pass the exam ie limited places); so I got in and got even some stipend for doing well enough

trinque: heh, same, but I was so depressed with what I got in a "university" I left rather than burn the place down.

diana_coman: in last year, I further got 1 of the few places in a joint master program with a french uni; then got 1 of 3 places on a stipend of ~500 euros total to do my project in lyon (and there was NO acommodation provided or anything either)

diana_coman: so I went there and managed to find somehow just about the cheapest thing possible (it was *everything* in one room and that room some 2x3m thing); my reasoning was that anyway I don't afford anything else and moreover, all the better motivation to spend my time at the uni on my project

diana_coman: so yeah, perhaps not a shed but I'm not sure if much better (fwiw it *also* had as "view" a small window towards a narrow pit of a sort of "inner court" ; an ancient building etc.

BingoBoingo: diana_coman: As I was out and about today, I pondered ways to bring Qntra into the economic loop. Every single one seems to better fit an idea, that I'd been bouncing around as a hobby, but as a refugee from an impossible Republic, the idea I though the hobby seems like the better business. I'm inclined to go forward with a new project doing Uruguay news in English. It's a smaller target, but it is a defensible one. Running escort ads

BingoBoingo: and growshop ads presents a more ready path to entering the economic loop than anything that could be run on Qntra.

diana_coman: anyways, did that; there was further mess but in short ended up on another stipend for phd studies in north tyrol; without accomodation again and moreover, with some delay re money

diana_coman: there were about 6 of us phd students in the same situation and we very nearly ended up sleeping in the street indeed for all sorts of mess reasons; still, got in the end a flat share.

trinque: BingoBoingo: what is wrong with having one hustle pay for another?

diana_coman: won't go the full story there, maybe I will sometime on blog but anyways, while phd stipends exist, they are not exactly huge or anything; still, compared to the thing in france it was way better.

trinque: diana_coman: yep, I've lived this life, bootstrapped a few businesses, varying degrees of success, never took any investment or financing.

trinque: the last part is just because I didn't have the network, and not because I was against it.

diana_coman: after phd, I got a post-doc position but I had had already quite enough (there's some pictures of me at various events and looking at my own expression there says it all but anyways)

trinque: diana_coman: it's entirely reasonable not to enter every moment of your life into the public record.

BingoBoingo: trinque: Nothing wrong, but if I go forward with the more narrowly scoped Uruguay news, Qntra's going to necessarily become a secondary/hobby concern.

trinque: BingoBoingo: ideally you hire in the first concern, and it gives you your freedom to do the second.

diana_coman: I still stayed for one year because I had promissed it; and then I went away and did for the next years ~anything I was interested in *on the condition* that I find someone to pay me for it

BingoBoingo: trinque: There are very good reasons to not hire in Uruguay on any basis other than pay independent contractors per piece of work.

diana_coman: oh, and in 2012 I had a child too; that added the experience of 1.5 years of max 3 hours sleep per night (and broken sleep) on top of other things;

diana_coman: and after that, pretty much re-started because nobody ever awaits for anyone 1.5 years or the like

diana_coman: that's where I was and what I was doing when I "volunteered" for smg

diana_coman: possibly that brings it up to date but ask away anything that's not clear

trinque: all very clear.

trinque: when you were doing whatever it took to float, you were doing bots, etc

trinque: not diminishing that work, but it was of one scale

diana_coman: fwiw re os, I don't think it was ever meant to be a volunteer effort, no

trinque: this surprises me, as I've been beating my head against a wall trying to discuss the economics of the problem, from where I sit.

trinque: were I dorion and jfw, I wouldn't be doing anything but finding the first few clients. I proposed a few avenues in threads earlier in the year, or last year.

trinque: "I know Peter Schiff" etc

diana_coman: trinque: hope you don't mind me saying it but I'd say the trouble was not in the intention but in the communication.

trinque: I, personally, do not know anyone who wants such a thing.

trinque: so I will not be the one to find that client.

trinque: I am also bolted to the offloading of a business I've been chained to for a decade.

diana_coman: trinque: hm? that didn't parse, from "do not know anyone who wants such a thing"

diana_coman: ah, you mean you don't know anyone who wants an os?

trinque: I do not know anyone to whom I can sell a curated stack, yes.

trinque: everyone in my network dorks on AWS and alikes

trinque: fat/happy etc

dorion: this is as good a point as any to restate : http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-14#1021146

ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-14 01:05:26 dorion: trinque, I'll admit that's management failure. I could've ask s.mg or the bitcoin foundation since they were to directly benefit. I didn't.

trinque: dorion: yes, but there needed to be capital flows *into* the republic

dorion: trinque we have been focused on the consulting, but it has been slow this year.

diana_coman: trinque: I can fully believe the aws and the likes indeed; there's also the significant part that republic failed to exist and so the whole context is changed and so far it hasn't even been reviewed as such; which is pre-requisite for *any* thinking of any related work, whether os or anything else anyways; I'll probably end up doing the review too since apparently nobody even considers it needed or something but that's besides the point.

dorion: re Peter Schiff in particular, to clarify, I met him once when he interviewed me for his bank, from that point he was *very* passive with the business.

trinque: diana_coman: I feel as though I'm reviewing.

diana_coman: trinque: what I don't understand is why wouldn't you finish that series since you started it and since you know what you want to say anyway? I don't see it chained to some choice (which I don't even think it's clear or possible to clarify *right now*)

diana_coman: trinque: what do you see as concrete output to come out of the review?

trinque: I am clearly failing to articulate a point that I'll render "the future does not exist", or I'll point to MP's causes vs purpose, or absent those I don't know what else.

trinque: I will not help another batch of folks whip up enormous egos they didn't earn, or do so in myself.

trinque: doesn't mean I won't help the OS thing.

trinque: but there's a more fundamental problem.

diana_coman: trinque: I don't follow there; I get your from causes not towards purpose, yes; I get even "the future does not exist", yes; I suspect we see even that series differently in that I see it precisely from a cause while you consider it to be towards a purpose - and from here on I'm already baffled.

trinque: happy to earnestly work towards lesser embafflement

diana_coman: you looked at those things in detail from what I could see; and you reasoned on them; that's cause already to write it down and publish it, fully; it's not towards a purpose ("so that there will be an os" or whatevers); what am I missing ?

trinque: when I read that BingoBoingo resolves to this and that in re: to becoming the greatest source of bitcoin news, I don't see that we've culturally learned anything.

BingoBoingo: trinque: Right, I'm starting to deflate today after.... think about bringing Qntra into economy post-Republic

diana_coman: trinque: for one thing that was previous to end of tmsr; for the other it was even then long-term aim, is there something wrong with that?

trinque: yes, very wrong.

trinque: you aim to be the greatest whatever when you're the second-greatest whatever.

diana_coman: trinque: why?

diana_coman: long-term, not "tomorrow" nor "next step"

diana_coman: do you consider you should never even consider more than right next step?

trinque: because history demonstrates that if you allow them the "long-term", they fetishize it.

trinque: diana_coman: if someone is saying "long-term", they'd better have a whole damned chain of credible ways to get there.

trinque: otherwise there are far closer-in problems to address.

trinque: the fixation on long-term is precisely what robs their cycles, and keeps them from doing anything at all now.

diana_coman: trinque: it's up to him to come with that chain; if he fails to, then he fails; and the fact that some will misuse /fetishize something, does *not* mean that the something is off the table; you can't protect anyone against themselves, I don't think so.

trinque: when he hasn't launched a rocket, I certainly can call plans of moonbase idiocy.

diana_coman: trinque: no fixation is meant or should happen,no, that's NOT what long-term is for,wtf; listen, if you are telling me that everyone is an idiot because you saw -and I'll grant you that you are right in that evaluation- only idiots, this does not change the utility of long-term plans.

trinque: or substitute "Loper OS", or "Masamune" as moonbase

diana_coman: trinque: it's not plans of moonbase; it's final aim for moonbase as *direction*;

diana_coman: it's meant as direction, nothing more.

trinque: it isn't in practice only direction.

trinque: it's excuse.

diana_coman: and the trouble with taking stuff off the table because some will misuse it is that the same some will just misuse *something else*.

trinque: better stated, it's a fetish that keeps them from beholding that they have no plan.

diana_coman: trinque: sure, they can use it as an excuse; they'll use anything else as an excuse for the same thing.

trinque: we do not disagree on the point of having plans.

trinque: have them.

trinque: if "they'll use anything else" how can one ever improve himself?

diana_coman: no, it's not the fetish (or the long-term aim) keeping anyone from anything; it's their own idiocy keeping them from it and just latching onto the long-term plan if present or otherwise it will latch onto something else just the same.

trinque: this "idiocy" symbol may very well resolve to the exact same thing in both our heads.

trinque: the fucking underpants ??? profit.

diana_coman: trinque: hm, there's some bit that didn't get over to you there

diana_coman: trinque: dunno if you are aware at all re this younghands project's history so far because possibly it gives already some practical examples

trinque: I've been watching

diana_coman: I have pushed everyone to get some basic, minimal habits re interaction, accountability and so on

trinque: and yes, I can see you training folks to draw themselves out before their own eyes in writing.

trinque: I've also seen some "I've been a very naughty boy and I must be punished"

diana_coman: and for the same pushing, look at the results and compare

diana_coman: trinque: and some who went "you evil" and so one

diana_coman: so on*

trinque: I don't know that it reflects on you, but it's methodologically different than how I've run shops. possibly comes down to gender at that.

diana_coman: trinque: so now with those examples, you tell me, is the "planning/writing/those habits" that make them x and y?

trinque: what's the x and y here?

diana_coman: let's link it back then, for clarity: there was the stated ~ "long-term plans are just fetishized and keep them from focusing on what needs to be done", correct?

trinque: let me give a more nuanced rendering.

diana_coman: sure, I'm listening

trinque: I was trying to convey it with the complexity:ownership discussion.

trinque: are you familiar with heidegger's ready-to-hand?

BingoBoingo going to bake a presentation on my present dilema and the coalescing idea for review

diana_coman: trinque: sadly, I would not consider myself familiar with it, no.

trinque: I'll probably butcher it myself, but it is descriptive of the possibilities that are disclosed through objects in one's environment which can be acted *through*

trinque: you pick up a hammer, through it you have all these possible actions enabled.

trinque: the grass on the field is not ready-to-hand in this way.

trinque: skis, ready-to-hand

trinque: follow?

diana_coman: hm, not quite sure; I can see hammer and skis as a sort of "tools" vs grass as ...dunno, not-tool?

trinque: yep, that.

diana_coman: but I don't quite grasp where the border /demarcation is

diana_coman: ie I can use even a blade of grass as a "tool" - to tickle someone, or to annoy bugs, whatever

trinque: sure, it's more descriptive of your psychological posture towards the object than a fundamental about the object.

diana_coman: heh, and I think that quite gets to the difference in our views re "long-term plans are bad because idiots misuse them"

trinque: oh? go on

diana_coman: trinque: considering the long-term plans as a "tool", right? you say "the observed psychological posture in my environment is that this is a tool for fetishizing"

diana_coman: does that make sense?

trinque: can sorta see it.

trinque: I was going to discuss that the ready-to-handness of objects differs; it's not a binary.

trinque: there are degrees of it.

trinque: differs depending on the subject too.

diana_coman: I consider that the fundamentals about the object are the fixed thing; and then people come with their own psychological posture(s) that further they CAN change (if they are not idiots because that is what not being an idiot even mean - changing to make better use of stuff)

trinque: yes, we're entirely discussing psychology here.

trinque: heidegger dealt with ontology of being

trinque: but anyhow, I'm not an expert on him. this is just something I found useful

diana_coman: you seem to consider that the psychological posture is both fixed /cvasi-universal and relevant for how things should be made ; I can see the practicality of it for sure ie yeah, if you need to make 10 idiots do something then you'll fit the tools exactly to their idiocy, sure.

trinque: actually, I'm getting to where the idiots are the tools

diana_coman: fat-fingered my client and ended up saying that in your chan, sorry.

trinque: no problem

diana_coman: trinque: I can see that point re idiots being the tools too; I did not aim younghands at idiots, quite on purpose; it's perhaps, a luxury, I can readily admit that.

trinque: there are a lot of directions to go from here, so I'm going to pick one, and make note of a few others

trinque: one sec

trinque: ok, an object is a tool if a human can project action through the object.

trinque: the potence of that projected action depends on several factors.

diana_coman: trinque: trouble there being that "a human" runs into the wide range of capability of such projection if you consider all bipeds as human

trinque: sure, I do not

diana_coman: 2 minutes, I need to nip and get a jumper as I'm for some reason freezing here all of a sudden, ugh.

trinque: but I want to be careful not to lean on that kind of thing, because people like to pick it up and rub on their ego.

trinque: sure. I'll go on a bit if you don't mind, and try not to hit enter too much.

diana_coman: I'm back; and sure, go ahead, I'm listening.

trinque: the potence of action projected through the tool is a function of the human's input, the leverage or advantage of the tool, and the object acted upon

trinque: this is where I want to bring back in complexity.

trinque: I think in my post I wanted to further deconstruct into wovenness-into-itself and wovenness-into-environment.

trinque: what would a hammer woven-into-itself look like?

diana_coman: hm, do you mean what would complexity of self-woveness look like/mean for a hammer?

trinque: correct

diana_coman is now suddenly reviewing all the sorts of "hammers" she has ever seen or handled

trinque: maybe it's a jackhammer, and it generates heat, so there's energy loss into the body of the thing

diana_coman: tbh I think there are some that I'd consider to have quite some self-wovenness complexity - dunno if there's a different term for them than plain hammer in English

trinque: maybe it degrades over time due to this waste energy

trinque: yeah, I'm not painting a picture of something bad

trinque: painting a picture of something that is.

diana_coman: well, for a simple thing actually it's ...balance perhaps? for any hammer ie the positioning of the handle

trinque: would you expect the energy loss to ramp as complexity ramps in the tool?

trinque: a simple hammer, lots of the energy is transferred directly to the object you're hammering

trinque: as the tool becomes more woven into itself, more and more of the energy ought to be lost, each step in the complex machine being imperfect.

diana_coman: what do you mean by complexity ramping in the hammer tool?

trinque: I mean, in the class of hammers, there are more and less complicated ones

diana_coman: ah, I see

trinque: and that there are properties which scale with the complexity.

diana_coman: indeed

trinque: maybe we can be very clever and offset some of the energy loss of this complexity

trinque: so the operator-skill term of the equation matters

trinque: for all I know, there's a much smarter hammer than the hand tool that's more complex but also more efficient, i.e. less lossy of energy input to energy output

diana_coman: I can see that, yes; supposedly an automated hammer would even fit the bill re less waste of input energy.

trinque: yep, at much greater cost to design the tool, produce the tool, to operate the tool, but yes

diana_coman: certainly.

trinque: I could probably eventually make a shitty hand-tool hammer myself without much, whereas the automatic one incurs at least a machine shop (with all the industrial processes behind the tools inside) if not a factory outright.

diana_coman: indeed

trinque: the costs ramp profoundly as complexity of the tool increases.

diana_coman: well, as the tool effectively packs more, it means that more went into it, yes; no possible other way there for sure.

trinque: now lets talk about perhaps the most hellishly complex tool on earth.

diana_coman: might even add though that this is talking of the useful sort of complexity because otherwise ramping up costs for useless complexity is a very easy thing anyway.

trinque: so utterly relevant if we switch to talking about computers!

diana_coman: there was the dubiousness of whether computers even qualify for "tool" in any sense (ie worse than a hammer for sure) but ok.

trinque: can't wait to talk about humans next, because your comment applies as well to them

diana_coman: certainly

trinque: computers are certainly perverse, if tools.

diana_coman: ahaha, how do you mean perverse?

trinque: given input, they mostly act upon themselves, and at astonishing scale.

trinque: for every hammer swing, they blast themselves into a new state however many billion times

trinque: I'm imagining the weird states the ship in hitchhiker's guide got into every time it warp jumped, or w/e

diana_coman: hm, they blast themselves into a new state in that sense even *without input* so not sure in what sense there is the input relevant?

diana_coman: (and yes, it applies to humans too!)

trinque: do you disagree that computers are ready-to-hand in the contemplated sense?

trinque: (I would actually agree, but would consider this degeneracy of contemporary computers)

trinque: in the abstract, insults towards them aside, they appear to me to be tools we use to multiply human agency

trinque: the odd thing is that they mostly send their magnified output straight back to us

diana_coman: I don't think they are ready-to-hand in that strict sense, no; not sure re degeneracy of contemporary computers ie possible but since for practical reasons this is what computers are today, either we talk of abstracts or we talk of them.

trinque: the hammer's feedback loop, if we consider it this way, is much longer

trinque: what distinguishes them from the ready-to-hand definition

trinque: ?

diana_coman: hm, I can't say I have it all clear and haven't previously thought in those terms either.

diana_coman: but I'd start from precisely my comment above that the input doesn't mean a significant difference re "change of internal state"

trinque: distinguishing that the computer even has an internal state, eh?

diana_coman: normally my "computers are not clearly tools" starts from "what's their purpose if they are tools?"

diana_coman: trinque: at component level, sure

trinque: the working definition I have of "tool" is just "object I can wield"

diana_coman: well, I have sorely tempted to throw computers out of the window a couple of times so certainly can wield; though still more as a poor hammer.

trinque: hahahaha

diana_coman: heh; but on one hand that's the thing I was saying earlier re "what's the purpose of this thing called computer if you mean it's a tool" (with answer ~ ??); and otherwise, this comes yet back again to the initial difference - for me ~anything *can* be a tool, as it depends on the one wielding it, not on the thing.

diana_coman: that's back to active vs passive.

trinque: I would feel as though I were wielding a computer if I used one to launch some missiles, or what have you.

diana_coman: after all, is a rock a tool?

trinque: one could say I'm wielding the computer-missle complex

diana_coman: dunno, why that and more specifically how/where do you decide "this is enough to feel like wielding a computer"?

trinque: where cause begins is a sort of impossible conversation, regresses to the unmoved mover

trinque: to restate, what is interesting about having computers?

diana_coman: with a practical example - take blogs reading/writing with all the links and comments - is making use of that (the reading or the writing or both) - "wielding a computer" or not?

trinque: is it not that we can act through them?

trinque: sure, all of that

diana_coman: well, it's not missiles!

diana_coman: lolz

trinque: you are massively magnifying your biological capacity to have a conversation

diana_coman: perhaps; I can see the point that it's interesting to the degree that one finds something useful to do with it (and perhaps furthermore, something that can't be done otherwise/not to the same extent); not sure if this is of much use though.

trinque: what other uses do computers have than to act through them, and to be acted upon by them?

trinque: to my mind, a computer is a tool that astonishingly multiplies our capacity for language

diana_coman: why specifically/only language or do you mean that in a very wide sense?

trinque: very wide

diana_coman: I can kind of see it; I wouldn't have gone for it and right now with just this brief consideration (so without having thought it through at all really), it still seems to me way too high level really.

trinque: it's necessary for any subsequent claims, so we could park it there for now and resume in a bit if you like

trinque: I have some chores staring me down

diana_coman: trinque: ah, in that case, would you prefer to resume tomorrow? (otherwise I'm fine to work with that definition and from it)

trinque: tomorrow sounds good. what time works for you, the same?

diana_coman: 8pm utc can work well, yes; it gives some earlier time to talk to others as needed too, so possibly for the best.

trinque: alright, I'll be back by then.

diana_coman: cool.

trinque goes back to apocalyptic spring cleaning

diana_coman: bwahahah, enjoy then!

BingoBoingo grateful for the exercise in iterating the Qntra plan in getting this new, seemingly actionable idea written.

diana_coman will be back tomorrow at 7pm UTC as usual.

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