asciilifeform: lobbes: if yer pages are in any way calendar-sectioned, will suffer same problem
asciilifeform: for so long as concept of 'day' is used at all, 'the hole through which the night goes in'(tm) remains open
asciilifeform: behold, for instance : http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-26#1938120 vs http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-26#1938120
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 23:49:40 lobbes: but I see the issue re: the traditional loggers agreeing with each other
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 00:05:26 lobbes: but I see the issue re: the traditional loggers agreeing with each other
asciilifeform: the bots know what to do ( i wrote so it loads by index strictly ~when parsing for echo~ cuz ~possible~ there ) but yer browser does not !
asciilifeform: try to click on the snsabot link.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 23:49:40 lobbes: but I see the issue re: the traditional loggers agreeing with each other
asciilifeform: lobbes: does this make sense nao ?
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 00:05:26 lobbes: but I see the issue re: the traditional loggers agreeing with each other
asciilifeform: ^ observe that worx. from bot pov.
asciilifeform: but if you calendarize the pregenned-pages thing, you end up baking the 'when does day start' idiocy right into the db. where cannot even be easily later fixed...
lobbes: I definitely see issue with traditional logger, but..
lobbes: re: two or more mp-wp loggers agreeing with each other; I'm not sure they would ever need to agree with each other in terms of links... IF not indexing. In other words, each instance of a mp-wp logger and its output becomes indistinguishable from any other blog post on said blog. (in other words, if you don't care to sync, or don't care if "missing" lines, then not an issue)
lobbes: Now, to revisit upstack, if you are intending to *sync* one mp-wp logger with another mp-wp logger, then I guess you'd run into the same issue as the trad. loggers. I.e. In order to sync you *would* need to index.
ericbot: Logged on 2019-09-26 00:54:16 mircea_popescu: whereas on trilema you have the whole power of the mp-wp selectylanguage at your disposals, you don't need the line numbers because you can just select w/e actually interests you
asciilifeform: lobbes: is it not apparent that you will have same problem if calendar is used ~anywhere at all~ ?
asciilifeform: you gotta break the pages ~somehow~. q is how. if you do it by 'day', you end up stepping on same mine.
asciilifeform: lobbes: understand also that the problem aint limited to '2 loggers agree'. clocks -- drift. arbitrarily. needs also to agree re links with ~past self~
asciilifeform: if the links contain dates, and the date is in any way significant to the machine -- which, if you cut by 'day' the pages, it will be -- yer stuck with this horror.
lobbes: hm, I see what you mean re: "agrees with past self"
asciilifeform: even if they're not indexed by line, but take the form ...../chan/date?start=foo&end=bar
asciilifeform: the date -- gotta go
asciilifeform: the sooner we find a pill for this, the fewer speshulcase atrocities will have to be committed to make old log readable in new formats.
asciilifeform: the current logger only is able to get away with disregarding dates when echoes, because the pages are dynamically genned
asciilifeform: if you introduce hard splits by date -- the example differential pair nao will not only not load identically, but also not echo. and worse, there will be no decidable algorithm for even determining what the link made for 1 logger, corresponds to on other.
asciilifeform: i.e. whole idea of synced loggers, becomes an impossibility.
asciilifeform: imho a pregen-page logger must split on something ~other~ than calendarism.
asciilifeform: can be anyffin, even line count. so long as it can be mechanically derived from the actual lines, rather than clocks.
asciilifeform: clocks -- are bogus.
asciilifeform: btw http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-26#1938128 reveals a parser bug.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 00:07:47 asciilifeform: the browser is unable to send to '#1938120' to the box.
asciilifeform: (exercise for reader...)
asciilifeform: iirc diana_coman actually reported this one coupla wks ago, it seems to be on my chalkboard already !
snsabot: Logged on 2017-02-09 12:53:33 asciilifeform: incidentally -- there is more to this crapolade than meets the naked eye. regexp is a fundamentally braindamaged concept -- not only in the way described by naggum (how do you infer false positives?) but also in the haskellian idiocy where 'reasonable' and 'thermonuclear self-annihilation' programs look nearly identical, and distinguishing them is np-hard
asciilifeform: asciilifeform, for instance, likes to think that his hands grow from shoulders, and not from arse, and still evidently produced these.
asciilifeform: this is not even to touch on the q of whether a particular shitlang's regextron even worx as specified.
asciilifeform: ( they are regularly found ~not~ to )
asciilifeform: as naggum observed, regexism indeed helps to ~quickly~ shit out a proggy that ~appears~ to work. but it will never become proggy that ~actually worx~ i.e. can be shown to work for all inputs.
lobbes: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/trilema/2019-09-26#1938150 << nevertheless, things like this are harder to implement once the concept of dates are thrown out the window
ericbot: Logged on 2019-09-26 03:46:04 asciilifeform: imho a pregen-page logger must split on something ~other~ than calendarism.
lobbes: I must digest these threads some more, methinks (though I thank asciilifeform for the edification). I'll bbl; sleep
asciilifeform: nighty, lobbes
asciilifeform: it's possible that mircea_popescu intends his item to be standalone, rather than pilot plant for all 'canonical' loggers. then dun matter so much whether calendar etc.
asciilifeform: but would have to see what he says when wakes up.
asciilifeform: phf got away cleanly with calendarism because never tried to sync w/ anyone else .
asciilifeform: ( if he did -- presumably manually fixed, and didn't bother to make a note of it )
asciilifeform must also bbl
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938040 << this made entirely 0 the fuck sense, what the fuck, if you miss a line thereby the int'l dateline changes ?!
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 20:17:27 asciilifeform: lobbes: as i understand, with that type of logger you'd have to regen all of the pages that include or follow the gap, in order to close a filled gap.
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938042 << namely.... maybe two ? wtf.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 20:21:24 lobbes: indeed. Would just be a buncha "update" statements that fill in the proper lines. As it currently is designed, I have it spitting lines into a flat file first, and that file is used to update the "current day's log" post as new lines are seen
mircea_popescu: and why the fuck flatfile intermediary anywya, what is this, medieval clockwork ?! what's it needed for ?!
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938046 << are you fucking kidding me, how the fuck are old logs not read-only even anyway ?!
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 20:37:34 asciilifeform: imho a logger that can't resync at all, aint much of a logger. but at the same time i dun see why a generate-statics logger couldn't be made to resync. simply a bit moar complicated.
mircea_popescu: this has easily been the weirdest wtf... uncleaned coffee mugs invaded by ergot or what the hell's going on here
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938058 << this is an insane problem to solve. if all you're trying to delineate is "mircea popescu", then how about linking to the whole page ; otherwise, it was ~something the man said~, which gives rise to both the need to point to it specifically, and to the method of doing just that.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 22:22:24 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938053 << ideally would pipe it into sumthing like a table layout, so can select w/out repeatedly including speaker indicator per line e.g. 'mircea_popescu:'
mircea_popescu: you can't need to point specifically to my name generally.
mircea_popescu: ie, if "selection doesn't work for me" "why not ?" "because what i want to select recurs", give some thought whether indeed "selection is broken and should be fixed". WHY do you want to select something THAT RECURS, and recurs so much it actually doesn't allow you to extend the context slightly, one character at a time, resolving your problem ?
mircea_popescu: maybe what you're trying to select isn't something you should be selecting as part of what you're trying to do because what you;re trying to do is actually broken upstream. ODDS ARE.
mircea_popescu: god put ~exactly no clues~ permitting one to bootstrap out of the ~necessary~ d-k recursion. god put no such clues in ~deliberately~, and god also made it necessary in the first place. because god's an asshole.
mircea_popescu: the only available support for such bootstrap is this kind of indicia, "why are my self-perceived needs conflict with my betters' designs". it could, surely, be the case they're fucked in the head. i'm sure they often are.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless -- not all problems one can persuade himself into perceiving are actually worth solving.
mircea_popescu: there's exactly no need to "stop rape", for instance. "being special" (defined as, "never being raped") is not some kind of "universal right of womanhood". no woman's born entitled to be special, she's born to be used, like any other blade of grass on this here GREEN earth. that specialdom may arise, as a mist, RETROSPECTIVELY, is one thing. but the problem needs no "solving" -- you don't wanna take the cock, don't. see ho
mircea_popescu: w far that gets you and bother whoever cares about it.
mircea_popescu: "oh but mp, surprise sex is inconvenient" "yes, i'm sure it is"
mircea_popescu: "i thought this was uncontroversial" "yes, that's how it usually goes."
mircea_popescu: the persuasive universe is actually very much like a fungal infection of the mind : it grows nicely, i'm sure, but in so doing it misuses a fundamental other thing, that actually has a function independent of ever-growing fungal blather.
mircea_popescu: the dichotomy between the subjective life of the subject and the demands of the outside structure ~is creative~. this is specifically the mechanism through which it is creative : "i wonder why it is i want something that these idiots didn't put in". one possible outcome of a correct such evaluation is, indeed, "jesus fuck they're idiots". however, ANOTHER possible outcome is the ~EXTREMELY~ valuble bootstrap out of d-k rec
mircea_popescu: it's valuable because it is rare, and because it is, quite pointedly, going against god's own plans with you.
mircea_popescu: if one just goes by the persuasion tradewinds, this lever's permanently stuck to position one ; and ridiculous nonsense flows downstream, superficially visible as "old men in power have been behaving badly" or w/e currently fashionable cri de guerre of the retard camp.
mircea_popescu: this isn't actually the problem though ; as well documented on trilema, the effect on powerful old men an' their behaviour of the tavern wench consensus is still the nil it's ever been.
mircea_popescu: the subjective paralysis is actually the problem. participating in the tavern wench chorus as to how bad your owner is prevents you from fucking thinking, or growing the fuck up (the two being related).
mircea_popescu: and participation ~doesn't take all that much~. that's why it exists, after all, because it's easy, because it is in fact even easier than the very little use them powerful old men behaving badly might put a dumb wench towards.
mircea_popescu: in fact, all it really takes is this conviction that a problem once perceived's thereby an' therefore also a problem that needs solving. NOT SO.
mircea_popescu: it could be, of fucking course, there's no denying that. but there's another step in there, and not to be skipped over.
mircea_popescu: and it can not even be explained JUST HOW!!! creative that thing that's creative actually is. let's look at one example : mp is, as a factual matter, the one who needs most things not put in. mp apparently needs to walk his bitches on a leash downtown, which romania doesn't even have words for, every newspaper in the country must drop whatever it was doing, selling cheap chinesiums, to talk about mp's weird needs now, and
mircea_popescu: how it all relates to the system.
mircea_popescu: erryone's happy with a girl to worship at home, just put her into this one shrineroom and worship there now and again ; mp apparently needs multiple (what! how!) and ~somehow even manages this~, for years, decades, it's not a wish-perceived fantasy, he lives like this ?!
mircea_popescu: yet mp is also the ~least~ angry at "the system". how the fuck could this be ? is mp insane ? if everyone's so fucking pissed off over epsilon, "they gave us 9000 things but we're missing like... three. burn it all down", what the fuck's mp supposed to say, he has to have his fucking food flown in / slave made, and clothes flown in across the world and everything else.
mircea_popescu: yet strangely mp doesn't mind nearly as much as the bottom centile of the "red pill" crowd. how the fuck ?! is it because he's a jew that he doesn't suspect jews are in charge ? what the fuck's going on here ?!
mircea_popescu: ~the dichotomy is creative~. we don't have many (in the sense of : not any) alternative leverage points available. gotta use what's there.
mircea_popescu: in fact, the reason i take the time to explain how various shits work, unpopular as they may be, is because i put the time in to actually understand how they do in fact work ; and i did that not because i was bored, or because i was desperate to find something to pour some of this time into, i have like a well of time at home and it's overflowing so you gotta put some in all availavble receptacles or else it floods the hou
mircea_popescu: se, so i have 500 gallon jugs with time lying about.
mircea_popescu: no, tis outta respect. i will take the time to type something out, an old poem, whatever, for similar reasons : some things are worth it. and they get worth it through occasionally, ever so occasionally, doing you that rare and radiant wonder of a favour, where "it turns out" aka you finally deign to fucking notice you were doing something stupid.
diana_coman: this thread will be mandatory reading for #o residents
mircea_popescu: o hai diana_coman
diana_coman: morning mircea_popescu
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log-raw/trilema?istart=1938185&iend=1938213 - look at this, log-selection via log-raw, ha.
diana_coman: (and them mircea_popescu will write a mandatory-reading thread of more than 500 lines and my log-selection via log-raw will fail).
mircea_popescu: not this decade
mircea_popescu: will need moar beard for crossing the 500 line threshold.
mircea_popescu: neways, ima go for a walk. bbs.
spyked: diana_coman, from what I can see, raw-log display also fixes the "when to cross page boundary" problem, heh. e.g. http://logs.ossasepia.com/log-raw/trilema?istart=1938114&iend=1938120 displays fine
diana_coman: spyked: indeed it does; basically the browser-display is the broken part
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938061 << this is a long standing problem (not kidding, i been pondering "how to display logs" for a LONG time). generally it seems to me preferable to preserve the original prosody of the author (because yes, this is what this is, "how to break into lines", duh, ancient greek issue)
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 22:23:37 asciilifeform: ( and: if yer not indexing by line , why not actually merge the text when speaker is contiguous ? )
mircea_popescu: unlike "poetry" ie the socialist shit, where "things look a certain way" with 'verses" (and i'm stuck ha;lf the time dropping it altogether, because it's better absent than fucked), our prosody is actually interesting.
mircea_popescu: which is why generally when rendering log i tend to preserve nametags per line and the original lines (though not always) and instead insert extra line breaks now and again to paragraph it up.
mircea_popescu: alternative schemes may be devised, but it's not a simple "let's just mechasmush everythin together" sorta level of consideration.
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938065 << sadly this is a html breakage. the options are delineated in article : either use span and not cross paras, or else use div and end up with an extra newline.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 22:26:36 asciilifeform: in related grrs, asciilifeform recently attempted backport of mircea_popescu's selector knob to own wp, but broke teeth cuz it dun know how to cross paragraphs, and i have '9000' multi-para selections, esp. in ffa series where coad
mircea_popescu: until html replacement, this is the limit
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938067 << so the idea is that the flatfile is part of the orig logger ? i misread, i thought it's novel addition.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 22:29:07 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938050 << if you dun actually store the raw irc lines somewhere, sync ~from~ your logger becomes suddenly quite nontrivial.
mircea_popescu: which'd have made no sense.
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938075 << right, that one.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 22:34:53 billymg: just found it now and read it over, did not know mp-wp trackbacks were broken in this way
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938078 << now this is so ; i'm quite happy we found out about it actually.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 22:38:25 asciilifeform: the other thing, the adhoc traditional line select is human-friendly, very fast to grab a line url, whereas mircea_popescu-style selector less so, gotta find unique start/end text, when citing from trilema it usually takes asciilifeform 2-3 shots to nail down the correct snip
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938080 << there's no good way to "knob" this.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 22:43:04 asciilifeform: incidentally, if yer going full throttle w/ selectables , the Right Thing imho would be to take it all the way and make items like this actually display (if reasonably compact.. config knob?) the linked text. a la old man ted nelson's 'transclusions' concept .
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938084 << imo this sounds like a good idea in theory, but is not a good idea in practice. the reason for the difference is that the links as we use them now are ~fixed length~ AND ~fixed format~, something the quotes can never be. they are BETTEr like this than like that because the fix-* is the more important attirbute in thsi context.
mircea_popescu: a car-plane is not more compact than a set of car, plane ; nor is it "more intellectually accessible". it's true the manual
mircea_popescu: s 60% the length ; but this is not the be-all end all of intellectual accessibility.
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938089 << it was my fucking spec, wtf.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 23:01:58 asciilifeform: if finally throwing out the ancient kakobreklic format for logger display, wai not go full throttle.
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938091 << this still happens ; it has its functions.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 23:12:08 asciilifeform: ... rapidly this becomes a headache, re historic logs where 1e6 times people cited specifically bot echoes
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938096 << altogether not clear to me any actual retardation's in fact been identified, which may have something to do with it.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 23:15:57 asciilifeform: imho all of this is a++ illustration of how even in very small, conceptually (vs. e.g. ye olde c/gcc/linux orchestra) system, 'legacy' retardation gets firmly baked in and very difficult to entirely remove.
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938099 << hey, trilema has a romanian chunk. ~doesn't bother anything~.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 23:18:21 asciilifeform: so things could, i suppose, be worse, era1 could be in aramaic!111
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in local lulz : "what was that much better post office here called ?" "you mean prioripost ?" "that's right, apriori post!" "no, no, just prioripost. though... damn..."
mircea_popescu: think abougt it, isn't a priori post something you'd want ? :D
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938106 << well, trilema doesnt have this problem, because, of course, d. Tr.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 23:29:24 asciilifeform: nor is there likely ever gonna be any such agreement. use of reich time gotta be made 100% decorative, or to go away entirely.
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938119 << even there, you'll have to name the days ~something~, which reduces to naming them the date, meaning that your select will only work if the line is IN tjat date.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 23:49:18 lobbes: in the mircea_popescuine logger, though, all links will use the server-side-selectory-style. By definition those links will never agree with the traditional loggers since the latter can't span arbitrary lines / text
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-26#1938134 << can be "easily fixed" in theory because it was dumped in mechanically ; but won't be easily fixed in practice because fu, i'm not changing trilema articles once published.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 00:12:38 asciilifeform: but if you calendarize the pregenned-pages thing, you end up baking the 'when does day start' idiocy right into the db. where cannot even be easily later fixed...
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-26#1938136 << this is quite the idea. i have no expectation trilema log and whoever else's such log be machine-identical.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 00:13:24 lobbes: re: two or more mp-wp loggers agreeing with each other; I'm not sure they would ever need to agree with each other in terms of links... IF not indexing. In other words, each instance of a mp-wp logger and its output becomes indistinguishable from any other blog post on said blog. (in other words, if you don't care to sync, or don't care if "missing" lines, then not an issue)
mircea_popescu: let people people it up, w/e.
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-26#1938140 << you're approaching this from a very bizarro view where you don't seem to be aware what blogs are.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 00:14:20 asciilifeform: you gotta break the pages ~somehow~. q is how. if you do it by 'day', you end up stepping on same mine.
mircea_popescu: if i make the log say X on my blog, that's my fucking priviledge, it exists on my authority.
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-26#1938151 << there is such a thing implemented, specifically in the auctionbot spec for #eulora (say your line on the hour but only if there's been chatter since last saying). something very similar can also work here, "a new day starts when there's been silence for x time"). while clocks drift, they don't also diverge, not on the sort of scales here contemplated.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 00:30:46 asciilifeform: can be anyffin, even line count. so long as it can be mechanically derived from the actual lines, rather than clocks.
mircea_popescu: i dunno that i'd want this ; but the experimentally inclined may find it interesting to explore
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-26#1938159 << you have a certain sort of impulsive dr hyde lying inside, prone to all sorta these out of a specific set.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 00:42:50 asciilifeform: asciilifeform, for instance, likes to think that his hands grow from shoulders, and not from arse, and still evidently produced these.
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-26#1938169 << quite. i intend it to be pilot plant for standalone, i'm specifically curious how bad "the bad" is gonna turn out to be.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 00:54:44 asciilifeform: it's possible that mircea_popescu intends his item to be standalone, rather than pilot plant for all 'canonical' loggers. then dun matter so much whether calendar etc.
mircea_popescu: o wowz, finally caught up!
trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937826 << cool, this was a missing detail imho. ack
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 08:23:25 mircea_popescu: so check this out trinque i changed my mind! http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-21#1937508 << rating < 1, actually.
mircea_popescu: meh, this half-expressed back and forth spec.
mircea_popescu: trinque, here's the complete story :
mircea_popescu: there's two lobes to qualify for voice in a castle : EITHER 1.(rating above x by the castle owner) OR 2.(sum rating over y by his lordship as he defines it.)
mircea_popescu: 1 must be on for there to be a voice model in the first place. #trilema was traditionally 1 on, 2 on, x = 0, y = 0. with this castle update #trilema is moving to 1 on, 2 off, x = 1, y = undefined.
asciilifeform eats mircea_popescu's output, may take a bit
mircea_popescu: in order for this system to retain its utility throughout the board, i believe the whole array should be offered to castle owners. thus for deedbot to manage voicing in a castle the owner would have to specify the castle name, what x value he wants, whether lobe 2 is on and if so what threshold y to be used.
mircea_popescu: i kept dithering back and forth in here because i stupidly never sat down to draw this all out properly and review history etc. but now i have, and that's the story.
mircea_popescu: the owner doesn't have to specify WHO is his lordship, because the bot just looks at who he rated 9.
mircea_popescu: that'd be the whole story.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-26#1938261 << this appears to be the key : if mircea_popescu's item aint intended to be a syncable logger, then naturally it dun need to giveashit re dates problem etc.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 08:42:44 mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-26#1938136 << this is quite the idea. i have no expectation trilema log and whoever else's such log be machine-identical.
mircea_popescu: not that i'm against sync-able loggers. but i don't believe all loggers MUST be thusly.
mircea_popescu: or to put it another way : a logger confronts the dilemma if whether to sync with history or with other loggers. i don't believe there's need for a rule, it can stand as such.
asciilifeform: aha. it's a problem in the current loggers tho, hence the lengthy elaboration .
mircea_popescu: that it is. and i would be concerned if there was no synced logger, too.
mircea_popescu: consider the complexities involved also. what if there's a serious dispute re log ? what do we all do, we each fall back on whatever private irclogs we kept, eys ? and conceivably even have a party split, x-y-z see Q, k-l-n see P.
mircea_popescu: the situation where there's both unchanging loggers and syncing loggers is in fact more stable wrt that sort of challenge.
mircea_popescu: and, my reasoning goes, since im doing this ANYWAY, might as well have a public, published version.
mircea_popescu: i am pretty sure nobody here ever thought before to ~edit~ their irclogs for ~any reason~.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-26#1938216 << diana_coman: current reader.py has multiline selects, e.g. http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-26?ss=1938185&se=1938213#1938185
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 05:30:53 diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log-raw/trilema?istart=1938185&iend=1938213 - look at this, log-selection via log-raw, ha.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 04:44:35 mircea_popescu: ie, if "selection doesn't work for me" "why not ?" "because what i want to select recurs", give some thought whether indeed "selection is broken and should be fixed". WHY do you want to select something THAT RECURS, and recurs so much it actually doesn't allow you to extend the context slightly, one character at a time, resolving your problem ?
mircea_popescu: (subsidiarily, i also want to select inside a logline maybe twice aweek, which is hundred of cases by now)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: anyone who wants can run the current logger and declare 'i aint syncing, mine writes to antifuse rom' etc. very easy to turn syncing into nonsyncing logger, just dun sync. but i think i get how and for what mircea_popescu's is supposed to work
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-26#1938229 << i dun see why the server end could not simply add <font...> tags around all of the material being selected?
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 08:12:38 mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938065 << sadly this is a html breakage. the options are delineated in article : either use span and not cross paras, or else use div and end up with an extra newline.
asciilifeform: (or even wrap same in a 1cell 'table')
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-26#1938241 << suggestion here wasn't that speakers literally paste the quotes , as in heathen days, but that the ~current~ 'paste log link and see bot echo' get transformed ~by www viewer~ into the pictured form.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 08:29:31 mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938084 << imo this sounds like a good idea in theory, but is not a good idea in practice. the reason for the difference is that the links as we use them now are ~fixed length~ AND ~fixed format~, something the quotes can never be. they are BETTEr like this than like that because the fix-* is the more important attirbute in thsi context.
asciilifeform: when humans write responses to articles, typically the section being addressed goes ~above~ the reply. why not log renderer follow same form ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, font doesn't do what you think (not addressable) ; table is clunkier div. can do either of course, up to you.
mircea_popescu: but the problem's of primitives not wrappers ; nobody on the fucking w3c commission ever had any actual usecases in mind. just shit.
asciilifeform: will have to try, i'd really like to be rid of the js, ~without breaking existing text~
mircea_popescu: there's no "clean span". there's either span-borken-thus or span-borken-that.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i fully buy that there prolly aint a way to do it cleanly with ~1~ added tag.
asciilifeform: contemplated -- multiple tags. (1 per word, if must)
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-26#1938308 << this isn't nearly as universal as all that. going by my own practice, sometimes i paraphrase, sometimes i footnote... but the whole discussion's more a case of "when bird flies, wings move, why not airplane". cuz not everything's a bird, what.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 11:38:35 asciilifeform: when humans write responses to articles, typically the section being addressed goes ~above~ the reply. why not log renderer follow same form ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, no, there's no way to do it with any number of tags. the problem is exactly as described : spans that can span any subset of the characters insert a spurious line feed ; spans that do not insert spurious line feed can not span any subset of the characters but only some.
asciilifeform: a, the line feed.
asciilifeform admittedly did not spend very long experimenting with this, yet
mircea_popescu: yes. "a one cell table" is just a clunkier div. and the problem with div (instead of span) is that it... breaks the line where it starts.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as i understand, mircea_popescu's current selector worx a++ to select text in 1 para where no line breaks, and does not put in any spurious. but if you want to select multiple para, wai not put the table turd where there are already line breaks ? oughta be visually indistinguishable , neh ?
mircea_popescu: the thought manifestly never fucking occured to the muppets, "chief among the jobs of any uniform resource locator is to expose a manner to reference arbitrary subsets of the resource once located ; at the very least ONE CONTINUOUS SUBSET)
asciilifeform: ( granted -- mechanically complicated, but oughta work )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, if you select whole paragraphs and them only, you can get away with div at very minor cost (ie, there may be slight diff between "normal" para and selected on some browsers)
mircea_popescu: the problem here is that select behaviour is social, and implementing a weird select for your blog is likely to cost more in that than in provides in whatever it provides
mircea_popescu: i dun imagine paragraph-select is how people expect to use it.
mircea_popescu: moreover, if that's all you want, you could just add per-para anchors with some tiny tweaking of the mp-wp
mircea_popescu: then no select is even needed, like the bible, #168
mircea_popescu: then no select is even needed, like the bible, #168:35 goes directly there
asciilifeform: if it eats same url commands as other selectors , but able to light up arbitrary text, why would break expectations ?
mircea_popescu: because it can only do whole paras at a time, neh ?
asciilifeform: well that's be quite useless. what i want is ~arbitrary~ text, as the occasion demands, whether 1 word in 1 para somewhere, or 6 para with start inside 1st and end in middle of last etc
asciilifeform: seems as if this oughta be doable on back end via combination of mircea_popescu's 1para and tableistic multipara
mircea_popescu: what you ~could~ do for your usecase, usefully, would be to add a, say, ?a=alf switch, such that when a=alf, every paragraph gets a chapter anchor and every sentence therein gets a sentence anchor, and then alfblog.org/?a=alf#137:37 takes one directly to paragraph 137 verse 37
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this dunwork with coad displayers, so not useful to asciilifeform
mircea_popescu: why not ?
asciilifeform: cuz i dun have 9000 slaves to order to rewrite wp code formatters for 11 langs.
mircea_popescu: yes well ideally what you call "a lang" comes with pre-written formatters
asciilifeform: hell, it took asciilifeform 7+ weeks to only make the one for 'peh' !
mircea_popescu: and if it doesn't, i daresay the problem's not your slaves.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall from what they were pre-written. ocean of regexp.
mircea_popescu: what can i tell you my bruther, we got problems.
mircea_popescu: they chiefly come in large drums of "everyone coming before was a fuckhead"
asciilifeform: maybe some energetic noob will take a stab at this one, asciilifeform sadly 100% full hands atm
mircea_popescu: the sadness about this sorta job is that it's eminently not noobworthy.
mircea_popescu: this is retiring whitebeard sorta work.
asciilifeform: entirely likely
mircea_popescu: except of course all the old farts are completely moroning hellspawn a la jwz, rms, ers, etcetera
mircea_popescu: as useless as dogvomit
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-26#1938217 << diana_coman y'know you can set that '500' to whatever, it's in config
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 05:31:35 diana_coman: (and them mircea_popescu will write a mandatory-reading thread of more than 500 lines and my log-selection via log-raw will fail).
mircea_popescu: anyway, back to it : html was written by people who had not even a cursory familiarity with what resource location might even mean. consequently, there is no actual way to locate subsets within resources, even if continuous. the only available primitives are, either spurious linefeed, or else partial selects.
mircea_popescu: (called "block" and "inline elements" in-universe)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ever look into the history of that liquishit ? i.e. ibm's 'sgml' ? no mega-surprise that the end product is what it is
mircea_popescu: chet was even on the committee back in like 2000
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's brother won't even read naggum : 'i hope that bastard is roasting in hell for helping with sgml'
mircea_popescu: when you know, people still inexplicably imagined they could help
asciilifeform: they did, i can see it
mircea_popescu: o yes.
asciilifeform: in the end, was 'medicine for corpse'.
mircea_popescu: problem with smart, educated, english-speaking kids is that they'll believe anything.
asciilifeform: just as , i suspect, there were a coupla sane, honest folx even on sslism committee...
asciilifeform: 'spoonful of wine in barrel of piss'
lobbes: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/trilema/2019-09-26#1938178 << this was a crackpottery I initially came up with to deal with an imagined problem. The "problem" being that I did not want to keep things like "meta data" and the current day's log lines stored in python memory, lest it crashes and loses that data
ericbot: Logged on 2019-09-26 07:31:58 mircea_popescu: and why the fuck flatfile intermediary anywya, what is this, medieval clockwork ?! what's it needed for ?!
lobbes: buut, I realise now this was kinda dumb. All the data (both "meta" and otherwise) is already inserted into the mysql db ffs. (i.e. if python crashes, I just... query mysql for last article updated and can get the post ID and last updated date, as well as read the contents field into memory). I will nix the flatfile-ism in short order
lobbes: and now that I know that sync-ism is not wanted with wp-mp logger, I have 0 doubts about this nixing. The wonders of the forum for clarifying courses of action never cease
diana_coman: mircea_popescu: he has http://thimbron.com/ for some reason; /me will catch up with the logs now
hanbot: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-20#1937445 << oughta be fixed nao, ty for the notice!
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-20 12:05:15 diana_coman: hanbot: you have broken trilema links on your blog as they still use polimedia.us eg those in http://thewhet.net/2012/11/shall-be-delivered/
diana_coman: ah, now I see it re thimbronion.com - he tripped over his own feet, didn't he; fwiw he got told off for it and he fixed it; anyway that "plan" needs revising.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu: once the new voice model comes in, is the L1 redefined accordingly too? iirc there are some priviledges such as "can use feedbot & deedbot only if in L1", right? spyked or trinque might correct me here.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman, was linked from his own article, i dunno
mircea_popescu: diana_coman, well, i dunno about redefined. rated 9 here aka l1
mircea_popescu: meanwhile it looks like ima have to review the trackback model also, as it turns out the new select style can spam trackbacks ( http://trilema.com/2019/the-freenode-issue/#comment-131559 and on)
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-26#1938378 - right; not "redefined" as much as updated implementation.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 13:54:45 mircea_popescu: diana_coman, well, i dunno about redefined. rated 9 here aka l1
feedbot: http://bingology.net/2019/09/26/weighing-real-estate-in-montevideo-from-an-acquisitive-perspective/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog -- Weighing Real Estate In Montevideo From An Acquisitive Perspective
BingoBoingo: ^ asciilifeform et al, the awaited survey of the real estate situation
asciilifeform: oh hey
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: 1 immediate observation -- the cabs were so cheap , transport dun seem to be major problem ( from asciilifeform's admittedly brief expedition )
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: They add up. The just under 10 km ride to Prado was 390 pesos going there, 340 pesos returning after traffic settled, for ~20 USD round trip.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: that's, what, 7.3k/yr if you do it erry day. still cheaper than auto+extortions+fuel+etc afaik
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: if can ride across city were 20bux here, i'dve sold my wheeled coffin long ago...
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: 1-2k $ / m^2 seems astonishingly high for an orcistan. but then again i aint expert on subj
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Well, there's also taxi strikes ~every other month. Taxis don't run on holidays except by prior arrangement.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: The widely reported years ago on numerous blogs conventional wisdom is that everything is for sale and ~40-60 percent negotiated off the asking prices was a common practice. This needs to be investigated if moving forward.
BingoBoingo: The advertised asking prices have been inching down since I arrived. I suspect the former use of property in Uruguay as a shelter from Argentine taxes kept real estate prices artificially high.
asciilifeform: aha but argentards back 'in the saddle' nao
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: As of 2013 through a bilateral treaty the shelter part of the arrangement went out. From where I'm sitting it is hard to tell which way the Argentine winds will push
BingoBoingo: Most of the apartments along the short of the Rambla here in Pocitos are never lit, never show signs of life, suggesting absentee owners
BingoBoingo: Go one or two streets back and just about everything without a for sale or for rent sign lights up at some point during the week.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: admitting that this puzzler is out of asciilifeform's paygrade -- imho getting even the smallest of these barracks would be a massive win.
BingoBoingo: One other complication leaving the central municipalities C, B, CH, and E involves incomplete coverage of the residential fiber network.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: errywhere i set foot seemed to have ok gsm coverage tho
BingoBoingo: That doesn't get spotty until leaving city limits.
BingoBoingo: The local telecom's preferred solution for rural internet is cellular.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: granted you won't be building a secondary dc in the garage, with gsm, but oughta suffice, i suspect, for work
BingoBoingo: Before investigating transit times it had probably been a good three months since I'd been inside a vehicle. Present tranportation costs consist of food calories above basal metabolic rate and a few cents a day in shoe/boot depreciation.