Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2018-10-23 | 2018-10-25 →
asciilifeform: briefly revisiting >> nobody noticed the omission, but i oughta've pointed out that 'a' and 'b' gotta proceed from opposite ends of the pad, when sending, otherwise risk collision
a111: Logged on 2018-10-23 18:01 asciilifeform: in an asynchronous scheme, you gotta explicitly divide the pad in halves, one for a->b and one for b->a, so as to exclude any possibility of either end making use of a block of pad that may have already been made use of by other side meanwhile.
asciilifeform: bvt: << this is very interesting ! i had nfi that open() had been sabotaged on mips-linux ( observe , in your table, errybody has same flags but for mips )
a111: Logged on 2018-10-23 21:41 bvt: a better write-up on the vpatch temporary file creation:
asciilifeform: >> as promised >> ( filtered , for convenience: only incoming crapola )
a111: Logged on 2018-10-23 21:12 asciilifeform: will post the pcap once it fattens up.
asciilifeform: tldr : the shitcoin people are in fact pretending to compatibility with ordinary btc protocol; even going as far as using unchanged version strings, and backdated block timestamps ( of course trb rejects the liquishit in O(1) , but it is entertaining )
asciilifeform: bvt : i'ma have to implement something to make calls to open() portable, cuz this is riotously ridiculous
asciilifeform: it is not possible to get away without open() in a nontrivial proggy on unixlike
asciilifeform: my mmap thing, which i've mostly finished rework to prepare for genesis, demands open(), mmap cannot eat fopen()
bvt: asciilifeform: re open flags: this is exactly what i was pointing at. should have made the text bold, i guess. if all these flags numbers were the same, i would have used the syscall wrapper functions.
bvt: and the amount of damage is ridiculous, even errno codes are different on mips.
asciilifeform: bvt: search turned up plenty of folx on the net wondering why their $proggy (all kinds) dun go on mips
asciilifeform: with culprit being the assumption of standard open() flags
asciilifeform: i.e. mips linux was sabotaged.
asciilifeform: my mmap thing was originally c-free (aside from a coupla imported, adatronically, calls) but apparently will have to include a .c simply for open(), to be portable.
bvt: i would try to make some sort of write-up about this. i wanted to suggest making a Ada library that exposes a subset of Linux system calls without C code, because i clearly needed it for the tempfile.
asciilifeform: bvt: i have a variant of this in ffa, and yet another subset in mmap
asciilifeform: prolly at some point we'll unify these and others
asciilifeform: but currently seems to me that it is impossible to write a portable proggy that uses open() without a .c that #include's the system's flags
bvt: but so far it's not clear what the subset should be, what to do about C structures (with problems like e.g.
bvt: well, for the library that i had in mind was strictly a database of flag name->int mappings, syscall numbers, maybe structure definitions.
asciilifeform: bvt: didja get a chance to read my udp lib ? the structs thing is the reason for .
asciilifeform: there is afaik no clean way of portably eating the ridiculous c structs without actually including a .c component.
asciilifeform: if it weren't for struct sockaddr_in..., struct in_addr..., i'd've simply imported the calls via pragma Import(C, ... )
bvt: yes, i skimmed through it. all these sockaddr structures would be a bitch to do in ada. this is why i believe it would be useful to define, what subset we'd need.
asciilifeform: my orig attempt at the udp thing tried to stick with purely pragma Import(...), but the result was definitely not portable, and so i rewrote it like-so
asciilifeform: imho, segregating as much as possible of unix liquishit in a short .c, is cleaner than buncha Import() and hardcoded flag constants derived by guesswork
asciilifeform: the .c absolutely gotta be bug-free tho, or it sinks yer whole proggy
bvt: i would much prefer going pure ada for a subset of posix. otherwise it's the same as relying on GNAT-specific packages -- it exports plenty of interesting stuff, not sure about networking though.
Mocky: >> plus then you either have to reverse the pad for one, or maintain a bit of state for top-eater vs bottom-eater
a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 13:40 asciilifeform: briefly revisiting >> nobody noticed the omission, but i oughta've pointed out that 'a' and 'b' gotta proceed from opposite ends of the pad, when sending, otherwise risk collision
asciilifeform: Mocky: i can think of several algos for reliably picking 'left' and 'right' without any manual config ( recall, 'a' and 'b' have the cards slotted in, in opposite orders, call'em pad 'x' and 'y' , 'a' has x-y and b y-x -- both get same final xor, x xor y, is used as pad p )
asciilifeform: bvt: thing is, there's a non-negotiable must-have subset of posix, that ~cannot~ be implemented as pure ada. e.g. the udp structs liquishit. or , as we learned from bvt , open()
asciilifeform: when we get own sane os, can reimplement on ~that~ . but under unixlike, stuck with .c thing
asciilifeform: bvt: you'll find that the gnat-specific packages are ~entirely liquishit -- check out what passes for 'gnat.sockets' for instance.
asciilifeform: kilometre of crapola, streamism, variablelengthstringism, etc
asciilifeform: incidentally, apparently exists, tho i confess that i really dislike the idea of automatic converters for coad
mod6: asciilifeform: thx for posting your fuckwads pcap
a111: Logged on 2018-10-23 01:51 mod6: Gotta catch up on l0gz and the rest. In particular, I'm just about nowhere on my task of creating answers to FAQs/Common Questions about the Foundation itself. I'll be working on that this week as a main priority - will post what I have for review/comments/corrections in #trilema by end of weekend.
asciilifeform: mod6: lemme know if you see sumthing interesting that i missed. but seems to me that my earlier hypothesis holds, they were forkolade noades.
mod6: oops. somehow, copied the wrong thing
mod6: asciilifeform: will do
a111: Logged on 2018-10-23 04:35 mircea_popescu: << don't waste your time with that, let it emerge naturally.
asciilifeform: mod6: dun burn much time on it, i suspect there is nothing much of interest ( they break some of the protocol format, but not, as far as i can tell, to any interesting end )
mod6: *nod* I was a bit curious as to what type of slop they were trying to feed us.
asciilifeform: Mocky: relatedly to 'who's top' algo , you may find the method illustrated in FG to be of interest, ( tldr : it's a straight 'foot race', and, for physical reasons, never ends in a 'tie' in practice )
asciilifeform: sorta like the ancient algo where two boys hold a stick and break it
asciilifeform: now, for an erryday piece of critical gear like otptron, i'd prefer an algo that ~provably~ terminates with correct (i.e. opposite polarity) pair, rather than 'oh it never ties in practice cuz no 2 crystals are exactly same' thing.
asciilifeform: ( the FG master/slave mechanism is only used in test benching )
asciilifeform: Mocky: come to think of it, the FG algo is applicable: the endpoint who speaks first, gets to be 'left', and the one who ack's first -- 'right'.
asciilifeform: the chance of deadlock is vanishingly small, esp. if you include a random delay during power-up, so that even if for some perverse reason 'a' and 'b' are started off the same power supply , they cannot deadlock.
asciilifeform: bvt: on contemplation, i'm thinking possibly mips should simply get own v-branch, if we ever actually get hold of a mips.
asciilifeform: complicating proggy simply because there's 1 broken system somewhere, is not imho a winning proposition.
asciilifeform: lessee what mircea_popescu thinks; this is a classic example of the type of knot i rely on him to cut.
Mocky: >> I quite like that actually
a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 15:46 asciilifeform: Mocky: come to think of it, the FG algo is applicable: the endpoint who speaks first, gets to be 'left', and the one who ack's first -- 'right'.
asciilifeform: Mocky ( and for the l0gz ) -- if it aint obvious from the FG src : the thing spends first six ticks of the clock on powerup listening for signs of a working external clock on CLK pin; if it finds one (i.e. it's pulled high on board, and can only fall low if there's a 'master' connected) it becomes 'slave' until powerdown.
Mocky: aye
asciilifeform: ( slave disables his own clock, and makes use of master's )
asciilifeform: again for the l0gz/n00bz: this worx in practice, even if 2 boxes are started off same power supply, because of inescapable variation in the size of the power intake capacitors on each FG
asciilifeform: so revv-up time is never same for 2 units
Mocky: unrelatedly, the miami in these filipinas and africans is off the fucking charts. they literally cannot sniff even a whiff of 'america aint that great' without spitting out 'america is the best, how could you even think it's not'
Mocky: they are in qatar cuz they lost the lottery for who gets to go to usa
asciilifeform: a 500 $ tourist ticket would cure'em in a week, but who would buy it for rando orc.
Mocky: no dude, they have fambly there who love it. they would love too!
asciilifeform: hey, nyc needs cabbies, and how to get'em without this 'family wrote, luvvvs it' procedure.
asciilifeform: it's how, not unrelatedly, asciilifeform ended up being marooned in usa, to begin with
asciilifeform: father: 'hey, sister wrote, luvvvs it'
Mocky: also i was surprised to hear nigerians talking about how dumb nigerians are. how they have money in nigeria but they are to dumb to do anything useful with it
asciilifeform: lol where on planet3 does one find that mythical place, that hasmoney + notdumb
asciilifeform: not entirely unrelatedly, Mocky do you have a FG with you ?
asciilifeform: might be useful item to show the heathens.
Mocky: they have money here and there are a lot things that are notdumb. especially when compared to africa
Mocky: no I do not
asciilifeform: Mocky: are you able to receive mail ?
Mocky: I think I can open an account with some specific company locally and have receive dhl shipments. it's how they get stuff from amazon
Mocky: otherwise it gets stuck in customs i hear
asciilifeform: when mircea_popescu wakes up, we'll see what he says re taking one of asciilifeform's seekrit spares and sending Mocky sample.
asciilifeform: Mocky: so see if you can get a postbox, or something like it, if it's practical.
asciilifeform: it is my understanding that you'll need a postbox to open company, pretty much anywhere, regardless
Mocky: Ok i'll find out and report back
asciilifeform: my logic : seems like Mocky is in one of those orcistans where the heathens luvv shiny things.
asciilifeform: a working FG could go a long way, potentially.
Mocky: you need a physical office space to be inspected to get the trade license and open company, so external not needed for that
Mocky: and it has god dammed flashing lights too, no?
asciilifeform: Mocky: in usa i found that i had to get a postbox simply to get a lease for office that has own postbox, 'catch-22', but possib. other places moar sane
asciilifeform: Mocky: indeed flashing lights
Mocky: yeah something physical in hand that already works probably would be good cred
asciilifeform: what i dun presently know is, just how fascist are the customs in Mockystan
asciilifeform: i.e. whether it is even possible to get Mocky a box prior to his expedition time running out
asciilifeform: but imho it's worth a shot.
asciilifeform: Mocky: you're , what, 2 weeks into your 8 ? or what was it
Mocky: i'll hit some people up tonight and I'll be hanging with a few dozen westerners tomorrow night at the four seasons, i'll bring it up there too
Mocky: yeah today was day 15/56 so 41 to go
asciilifeform: what i also dun know, is how well this meshes with Mocky/mircea_popescu's mission in Mockystan, presumably Mocky was not sent specifically to sell FG or mircea_popescu would have issued one already. so lessee what mircea_popescu says 1st.
asciilifeform: i can't picture how it could hurt, tho. having a working artifact in yer hand readily distinguishes you from the indian 'my CREATIVE BIZNISS IDEA!111' folx.
Mocky: zackly
lobbesbot: BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: <Mocky> otherwise it gets stuck in customs i hear << BWAHAHAHAHAHA, Very Uruguay of them
BingoBoingo: <Mocky> no dude, they have fambly there who love it. they would love too! << Ask them if their families voted for Trump or if they actually instead hate America
asciilifeform: !Q later tell bvt i left a comment on your www, should be in your queue
lobbesbot: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
Mocky: BingoBoingo, met up with a canadian teacher today who asked *me* if I voted for trump, i told her she was funny
BingoBoingo: I tell all the Latinas who will listen that I voted Trump
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: nao i'm curious, how do they typically respond
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: With curiosity.
asciilifeform: lol neato
BingoBoingo: I explain Trump is a clow who tells you what he is going to do, but Clitler is a backstabbing liar who surprises you with her evil acts, just like Hussein Bahama
Mocky: now if trump had promised to build a wall around D.C., then may have voted lol
BingoBoingo: Honest clown beats treacherous mula
BingoBoingo: I also tell them I am a fan of Bolnasoro in Brazil. And to that I respond "No soy un puto rosa"
BingoBoingo: "Trabajo sí, Samba despues"
asciilifeform: s/rosa/roso ?
BingoBoingo: In this case though not gramatically correct, the gender mismatch is intentional for emphasis.
asciilifeform: in ru prison tradition, was sorta opposite formula, when they lowered a d00d into pederasty, would give'im a gurl's name, but still address as 'he'
BingoBoingo: Bad spanish comes in two flavors: Intelligible and Unitelligable. The Uruguayos have all sorts of sayings that aren't translatable to proper spanish, which they use for ingroup signallying. This means bad spanish intentionally used against the Uruguayos and Uruguayas needs to be A/B tested.
asciilifeform: arguably the only place where 'proper' spanish is cervantes. errybody else some variant of real-life
BingoBoingo: The declaration that one isn't a pink manhooker isn't something the Uruguayos would say, but they understand it.
mod6: asciilifeform: can you confirm that the bastard blocks that were listed here were caputred at the same time as the pcap that you pasted?
asciilifeform: mod6: they were not. see log, i set up the tcpdump ~after~
asciilifeform: though it is possible that some or all of'em were received again and ended up in there, later
asciilifeform: i dun have a tcpdump on that thing at all times, lol, no amt of disk count conceivably suffice
mod6: see that's what I thought.
asciilifeform: *could conceivably
mod6: That they were captured at different times. I dug through the pcap for the 'prev' hashes that were listed in the paste, all the ones that I spot checked were in there.
mod6: So looks like idiot kept sending the same ones over and over.
asciilifeform: mod6: the shitnoad sends ~same miniature blox , pretty much, again & again
mod6: confirmed, from what I'm seeing.
asciilifeform: the 1 puzzler is why the derp back-dated'em; if the related tardstalk piece is to be believed, the particular shitcoin did not exist in 2015
bvt: comment approved, i would do a writeup on this topic (so far ETA middle of next week, this sunday night very optimistically).
lobbesbot: bvt: Sent 34 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> i left a comment on your www, should be in your queue
mod6: maybe an attempt at some sort of replay?
asciilifeform: mod6: either that or '1 man band', mined'em all, and forgot to set his clock..
asciilifeform: i can't picture against whom such 'replay' would possibly do anyffing, tho
asciilifeform: bvt: ty
asciilifeform: mod6: i think there's also an ordinary (as they go) prb noad mixed into that pcap
asciilifeform: but dun recall exactly.
asciilifeform: ( recall, i saved whole /16 from each range )
mod6: *nod* Ok. T'was interesting anyway. Cheers.
asciilifeform: speaking moar generally of replays -- because of the idjit method shitoshi used for block-gettin', where 1 peer can ~monopolize connection for just about as long as he wants -- a stock trb node , syncing from empty, is in fact in a position to be fed just about arbitrarily long replay chain. which is why my interest in sane checkpoint variant.
asciilifeform: theoretically it'll get reorg'd when honest noad later connects. but afaik this has not been tested, i personally do not know if a 1000+ -blocks reorg will succeed.
asciilifeform: current flagship trb cannot be replayed 'from genesis', but can be from 168000, per .
mod6: right, could be worth a test and perhaps the 'cement' suggestion.
mod6: (if it doesn't take too much time to look into anyway, could be interesting data)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu was not fond of 'cement', because sees (correctly) that it is a kludge. but imho given the single-threaded classical trb, it or something like it, is necessary
asciilifeform: >> err, from 168001, to be pedantic
a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 18:37 asciilifeform: current flagship trb cannot be replayed 'from genesis', but can be from 168000, per .
asciilifeform: mod6: in fact, and iirc i discussed this 2y or so ago in the l0g, by my current understanding of the reorg mechanism, it is possible to wedge ~any~ noad by throwing a specially- 'retro'-mined block with a higher work delta than the 'genuine' one at a particular point. then reorg dun trigger at all.
asciilifeform: well, any syncing-from-ground noad.
asciilifeform: the only practical defense against this is checkpointing, afaik. ( the prb folx tried to defend with 'orphanage', but with finite ram this does not actually solve the problem in the general case, simply ensures that different noades will wedge at different times )
asciilifeform: ( and i'll add that 'i sync all my new noades from existing ones' is a form of checkpointing , yer still weaseling out of using 'strictly clean' mechanism , there )
a111: Logged on 2018-10-22 22:54 mircea_popescu: lots of things give this "make sure you have same blocks".
asciilifeform: even the act of looking at the heights of other nodes, with naked eye, when syncing your own, is a primitive form of checkpointism.
asciilifeform: ( if were working strictly 'by the net rules', no one would ever do this, 'i have a node, it knows what the world height is', but this is not the actual practice )
asciilifeform: consider the frequent lament 'my node is stuck'. how do you ~know~ that ~yours~ is stuck, and not the world.
mod6: Ok, yeah. I still need to go back and re-read the ~last week of logs so I'm up to speed.
asciilifeform: the fact that this q gets asked at all, is proof that the network does not actually rise to the level of full automatism.
asciilifeform: i strongly suspect that the general case of 'establish the troo historic longest chain, strictly from the network, consisting of arbitrary portions of honest and dishonest nodes', without some variant of cement, is not solvable in general case
asciilifeform: or, not in finite space/time, at any rate
asciilifeform: and yes a node you plug in today ~will~ likely sync, but this is only because the noise floor is low enuff.
asciilifeform: it's really a classic example, imho, of a mechanism that requires wot ( and ergo, an out-of-band forcing knob, 'no, you do not get to rewrite history, even if you have 9000 sybils' )
asciilifeform: really, anyffing that happened 1000+ blox ago, oughta be considered permanent, even if martians land.
mod6: for sure
phf: << i threw your patch on btcbase, it looks good, though i'm not sure i agree with the decision to put temp file in /tmp. the point of putting it in same hierarchy as press, was to avoid the whole cross-file-system issue
a111: Logged on 2018-10-23 21:41 bvt: a better write-up on the vpatch temporary file creation:
lobbesbot: phf: Sent 2 days, 2 hours, and 23 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> in bolix lulz : loox like dks relisted that 'ivory' for 3rd time nao... apparently not so many eager-worth-of-$5k archaeologists any moar
phf: i grok the reasoning, but there are two issues: as of right now nobody's mounting to nfs, but at least in my stack tmp is not always as secure as other places i might be pressing, and the patch doesn't respect the environment TMP/TMPDIR convention.
asciilifeform: ohai phf
phf: old time reader, first time writer!
phf: i'm preparing for an extensive jump to moscow, so i've not really had much time to speak
asciilifeform: ru.tmsr corp when !
BingoBoingo: Don't forget to pack the camera
phf: yeah, this time around i'll have plenty of time to investigate all the ru corp details, and also photos
bvt: hi, phf! i can provide a follow-up vpatch for respecting TMP/TMPDIR
asciilifeform: phf: see if you can figure out wtf happened to zeptobars, also... ( )
a111: Logged on 2018-10-19 01:41 asciilifeform: zeptobars seems pretty dead; their site is up, but pretty sure that all of the pics therein, were there last yr
bvt: would you consider /tmp security issue resolved from vpatch's view if TMP/TMPDIR is respected?
phf: bvt: i think it's fine as is. scratch your own itch and all that
phf: i think it's an open question for the logs, whether or not /tmp is canonical place for putting temporary files, and whether or not writing a copy of what's being pressed in some arbitrary place (for all practical purposes) is a good idea
phf: i like to keep things red/black, so that e.g. red disk plates go into tomato soup at some point, but considering how leaky the whole system is, there's not really a red/black within the same machine anyway
deedbot: << Qntra - Media Force "Bomb" Identity On To Harmless Packages In Attempt To Forment Hysteria
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: s/fellow though/fellow thought
asciilifeform: << if pc iron had its shit together, there would not even need to be such a thing as 'red' disk -- only (temporarily) 'red' sram, and buncha freely backed up 'black' disk.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 20:31 phf: i like to keep things red/black, so that e.g. red disk plates go into tomato soup at some point, but considering how leaky the whole system is, there's not really a red/black within the same machine anyway
asciilifeform: ( 'red', for n00bz / folx far from usa culture -- refers to 'contains seekritz' )
asciilifeform: iirc the colouring was originally of telephone cables, in ww2-era us army.
asciilifeform: phf: funnily enuff, just about erry year i briefly contemplate baking a sane disk crypter, but always run against same wall -- sata interface is ~unobtainable outside of reich-asics
asciilifeform: ( usb controllers, on other hand, appear to -- without any known exception -- suffer from and related )
a111: Logged on 2015-09-22 03:01 asciilifeform: speaking of, last i checked, 'trezor' was still reflashable from the usb jack.
asciilifeform: ( for the l0gz : from asciilifeform's pov, 'sane disk crypter' is an item that gets keyed via onboard keyboard jack, e.g. serpents, the attached disk, and unkeyed when powered off or at the closing of a contact attached to $whatever )
asciilifeform: key lives in sram, which gets waltzed with rng whenever unkeyed and power is available.
asciilifeform: ( the problem of ciphering a block device in such a way as to avoid the penguin ( ) is tricky but not insurmountable )
a111: Logged on 2016-12-24 01:46 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: all schemes where the transform is of 'payload itself' and 0 entropy, suffer from immediate 'penguin problem', .
asciilifeform: the 1 non-negotiable aspect is that there must be 0 pc-side involvement in or awareness of the thing.
asciilifeform: ( pc-os/fw-based disk crypters are retarded, iirc subj was well covered in old thrds )
asciilifeform: ideally you want device with ~no~ flash storage at all on the pcb, to avoid even theoretical possibility of retaining bits of key when unkeyed.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: s/forment/foment
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: ty, fxd
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in today's gnat retardations : apparently it is impossible to use ( but can define!!!11 just fine ! ) a generic that takes a String as 'in', without secondary stack.
asciilifeform: because somebody's mother dropped him etc
asciilifeform: previously , from last 2+yrs of reading docs, i laboured under the impression that the only process that demands secondary stack, is ~returning~ variably-lengthed objects. rather than simply passing'em forward as 'in' param. which in erry context OTHER than generic, worx .
asciilifeform: diana_coman, phf , et al ^
asciilifeform: ( how ran into this : sneak preview of mmap demo : << path is set cleanly, as part of the generic invocation. but turns out this dun work (unless secondarystackism is enabled) , as somewhere internally it tries to ~return~ the string
asciilifeform: fucking outrageous.
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