Hide Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2018-07-16 | 2018-07-18 → ↓
ave1: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834921, ack. I think it's a brilliant idea. Especially, points (2) and (3) and I'm not worried about the "keeping a secret" parts. First, I've worked for companies with an extensive secret code base (and this code is and has been secret for a long time > 30 years) . Second, all leaked sources are "illegal" anyway (as in this source was not sanctioned, so it's worthless).
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 15:44 mircea_popescu: as we're contemplating an eulora client rewrite, i am contemplating the following code release paradigm : client author a) releases code encrypted to l1, signed and deeded (so basically, gpg -aer asciilifeform -r ave1 -r etc) ; b) releases precompiled binaries for allcomers.
ave1: Third, it is not about who leaked it (I do not care about that much). It's about trust and if L1 does not trust each other, then what?
ave1: I find the 'if it can happen, it will happen' a strange argument. Let's say you let a friend stay in your house while you are away for a couple of months? Yes, he could destroy the house and steal the contents, still this arrangement works and has worked for many friends.
ave1: I like it (I thinks it's paramount) that the republic is exclusive and not inclusive . (It then means something if you are included)
ave1: And the whole thing affirms the power/status of the Lords. I.E. when an author goes against a Lords wishes or AWOL it is then in the power of that Lord to contact another author and give him the source etc.
lobbesbot: lobbes: The operation succeeded.
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834921 <-- I'm sold on the idea i. in particular for eulora, and ii. otherwise for it to be established on a case-by-case basis. for (i), I see nothing wrong with e.g. challenging users to reverse-engineer the client (or maybe I'm just nostalgic about game cracking/trainers).
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 15:44 mircea_popescu: as we're contemplating an eulora client rewrite, i am contemplating the following code release paradigm : client author a) releases code encrypted to l1, signed and deeded (so basically, gpg -aer asciilifeform -r ave1 -r etc) ; b) releases precompiled binaries for allcomers.
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834926 <-- and yet, despite the disadvantage, it seems there may be items such as http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835358 that are both big and l1-only, despite the risk involved. hence my (ii) above.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 15:44 mircea_popescu: the evident disadvantage is that this only works if we can rely on l1 to keep a secret ; which means things (such as, that it can't be as big, for instance).
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 02:13 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i thought of 1 far-conveyor item where i actually had it in my notes 'to be for l1 encyclical only' -- the shortwave repeater
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1835039 <-- this imho doesn't make asciilifeform an idiot, it makes user responsible for whatever setup he runs the binary on. the same guarantee would be given for hypothetical linux kernel with changed abi as for mswindows kernel. as much as the word of heathens are not to be trusted, heathen did promise e.g. https://archive.is/KD183#selection-248.64-248.65 . so imho misbehaving kernel will just be
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 16:28 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: releasing binaries does not create this guarantee. even static elf, when put on a box where linus et al (or his successor) see it fit to subtly change the abi, will bomb, and not necessarily immediately. and i'ma still 'be idiot'
spyked: banned, with all that comes from that.
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835450 <-- how about http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-22#1455082 though? still very much subject to w4r3z, sure, but otherwise didn't end in tears.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 03:00 asciilifeform: Mocky: i grasp the argument, but must point out that all attempts to date to cudgel people into paying for software, have ended in tears ( usually for the cudgel-wielder )
a111: Logged on 2016-04-22 01:10 asciilifeform: ida is a particularly interesting case because it is a TOTAL monopoly
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 16:01 mircea_popescu: ave1 lobbes spyked http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/yTjUg/?raw=true
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835519 << guilfanov spent years raging at 'pirates', planting boobytraps, even implemented his infamous 'church interdict' against anyone known to employ ida 'traitors' , then still ended up selling his firm to usg.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 09:58 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835450 <-- how about http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-22#1455082 though? still very much subject to w4r3z, sure, but otherwise didn't end in tears.
a111: Logged on 2015-06-25 03:13 asciilifeform: ilfak guilfanov.
asciilifeform: this is not an argument for or against selling soft, but rather a data point.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835502 << the commercial lisp people work (worked? prior to being swallowed by usg) this way. e.g. allegro.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 03:47 mod6: Maybe a "developer license" isn't a bad idea either. Could raise some capital, and constrain the source code to those who promise not to share it and who want/need it.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835489 << note that it specifically was an example of a seekrit with strictly limited lifespan -- once there are '9000' repeaters, the need to keep the details under wraps vanishes
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 03:24 Mocky: if shortwave repeater was in l1 confidence and one day i became l1, i wouldn't see having to keep that secret as a burden.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835478 << losing control of your key is a fatal sapper mistake regardless of what else
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 03:19 mod6: I'm saying in the instance of inquisition. I don't think there is any way to separate a willful liar from someone who lost control of their key.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835518 << linus is not immortal, and i expect that he will lose control of kernel -- just as he stupidly lost control of his trademark to 'linux foundation' (y'know, with gavin on staff) -- even before dies
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 09:53 spyked: banned, with all that comes from that.
asciilifeform: at that point the 'free ride' will end and we'll be stuck maintaining a kernel.
spyked: aha, question is strictly when (next month, year or decade), not if. and even if abi remains stable, /me expects something along the lines of "linux kernel 6.3 only compiles with gcc >17" around the corner.
asciilifeform: spyked: aha, it's a sure thing.
ave1: diana_coman, nice write-up!
diana_coman: ave1, thanks!
diana_coman: it's still open to discussion as far as I can see it so any comments are most welcome
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i don't see any problem with eulora making its src members-only ( whether l1 or the 2 people who actually work on it etc ) but will admit that i still don't see what it adds, other than ceremonially. the monkey herd can still plagiarize the existing published src .
diana_coman: asciilifeform, what will that plagiarizing do?
asciilifeform: precisely nothing ( per http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835408 thread ) . hence asciilifeform's 'why bother'
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 02:36 asciilifeform: monkey had ak for quite a while -- e.g. the openly published fg design; but apparently monkey has atrociously poor aim
asciilifeform: but imho this is a decision intimately for the folx who actually wrote the thing ( diana_coman , mircea_popescu ) , i've no skin in the game
diana_coman: asciilifeform, I keep getting the impression that you focus in turn on one or another aspect but not quite on the whole; I'm a bit at a loss to point out exactly where it breaks though
diana_coman: perhaps a more fleshed out exercise: say there are clients A and B that have binaries released and accepted by Eulora's server (as per known hashes) ; sources of those are released to l1
diana_coman: now monkey has access to old client source, sure
diana_coman: it can compile it as much as it wants, server won't answer for one thing
asciilifeform: diana_coman: asciilifeform's pov re the retardation of 'open sores' , rms et al, is that they are tards not because they throw open the coad to allcomers but because they have no concept of wot , therefore were unable to conceptualize vtronics .
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 02:19 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ( admittedly i haven't read the referenced item ) what's to stop client from sending to server the old hashes ?
diana_coman: it can of course dig into binaries and get the hashes from A or B and then pretend their own code IS A or B but ..so what? i.e. author of A or B will get more money, is that bad?
diana_coman: answert already, lol
diana_coman: what the monkey can do will still help... non-monkey, that's the point
asciilifeform: the hashes thing strikes me as promisetronic, it is already 'honour system', why not simply identify the client by name, same effect.
diana_coman: it's one level up in the hurdle game
diana_coman: the assumption there is that someone who is able to get the hash out and change it in his own client is intelligent enough to actually earn money off his own work
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's perspective is prolly coloured by his having been paid to both make and break such 'protections' in the saeculum many times.
diana_coman: rather than futzing about for pennies with that
diana_coman: put a different way: they are intelligent enough to have the option of earning money honestly and realise the risks of being dishonest are greater than they are worth
asciilifeform: diana_coman: some folx are 'griefers' , neh, they will break just to break.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, "in the saeculum" != in tmsr; that's the whole thing
asciilifeform: diana_coman: right, but point was the futility of promisetronic 'protections'
diana_coman: sure, but after they break it, what do they do with it that is a. not useful to tmsr b. downright problematic
asciilifeform: they are breakable by just about anybody with basic education without breaking much of a sweat
diana_coman: I think you take those hashes to be an absolute promise of something; they are not; they are what they are (a mechanism, not an amulet!) and clearly stated; nobody pretends anything
asciilifeform: diana_coman: the conundrum from my pov is that why to bother with protections if 'so what if they break, not as if it does anything'
diana_coman: ugh; listen: do you lock your entrance door?
diana_coman: because I seriously doubt that it can't be broken so why do you bother locking it?
asciilifeform: if thieves could teleport, i prolly would not bother.
diana_coman: you'd probably still bother with an anti-teleport device although that one will also have some way of being broken
asciilifeform: ( recall alfred bester's 'stars my destination' )
diana_coman: enjoy!
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/07/numerous-reports-speculating-ecuador-in-negotiations-for-imminent-assange-extradition/ << Qntra - Numerous Reports Speculating Ecuador In Negotiations For Imminent Assange Extradition
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i gotta say, not very informative piece, either link or paste etc these 'reports' ?
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: One of many possible archive links added
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i sorta assumed he'd already been shot when Officially declared 'incommunicado'
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: It takes time to put the comatose look alike together
Mocky: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835572 >> does it change your pov if the hash is no form of protection or implied protection but merely an accounting convenience. like say http 'referrer' on phuctor page links to pizarro. maybe pizarro uses referrer to track where customer comes from and if came from known ad placement then counts customer for that ad. is referrer string now promisatronic protection since anyone
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 13:41 asciilifeform: diana_coman: the conundrum from my pov is that why to bother with protections if 'so what if they break, not as if it does anything'
Mocky: can 'break' so why bother?
asciilifeform: Mocky: it'd be a moar realistic description of what it is, yes.
Mocky: asciilifeform, what's being protected?
asciilifeform: Mocky: see logs; my understanding is that there's to be a scheme for rewarding authors of successful authorized clients
asciilifeform: Mocky: i neither develop nor play eulora, so i cannot meaningfully comment re detail
Mocky: asciilifeform, i get that. I read your 'realistic description' statement to mean referrer string is promisatronic protection, was asking what referrer string is protecting.
asciilifeform: Mocky: this is a q for diana_coman ? ( as i understand, it is meant to make the use of obsolete (currently published) client , moar difficult )
Mocky: asciilifeform, assume for the sake of argument diana_coman said 'dun care about make use difficult, let them use whatever works', do you still have objection to that?
asciilifeform: Mocky: i in fact do not have objection to it either way, it is a stylistic decision for diana_coman & mircea_popescu , not mine to make
asciilifeform: but i'll admit to being puzzled re what is the win from it.
Mocky: i've also been on both sides of make / break protections (although break for fun not pay). if hash is used as protection, i see that as valid objection
diana_coman: Mocky's description is correct - it is an accounting mechanism, yes
diana_coman: I didn't even realise there was some way to see it as protection against ...what? code copying or what?
diana_coman: asciilifeform, no, it's not about making use of any client more difficult per se
asciilifeform: diana_coman: the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835553 formulation suggested 'protection mechanism', but i guess i've nfi
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 13:35 diana_coman: it can compile it as much as it wants, server won't answer for one thing
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 13:36 diana_coman: it can of course dig into binaries and get the hashes from A or B and then pretend their own code IS A or B but ..so what? i.e. author of A or B will get more money, is that bad?
diana_coman: the overall idea is to pay authors of clients based on how much their clients are actually used
asciilifeform: aha makes sense
diana_coman: the ~only scenario I could come up with re abusing that hash is where author of A that is less successful than known B decides somehow to distribute a doctored version of B that sends the hashes of A - it's already rather insane I'd say
lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835608 << this was a key piece I was missing as well. For some reason I thought scheme was 'lock down production of binaries so as to allow authors to work out their own pay-for-client mechanism.' Whole thing makes way more sense to me nao
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 17:04 diana_coman: the overall idea is to pay authors of clients based on how much their clients are actually used
diana_coman: glad it does!
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in vintage lulz, https://archive.is/tWfDh << yet another faux-gossipd.
asciilifeform: '...We ended up with a simple protocol packet: the Lulzpacket. This simple packet contains information to verify there was no corruption during the transmission and a random code to pseudo-identify the packet. We define the addresses of nodes in the net by their ability to decrypt a given packet. Addresses are derived from the hashes of asymmetric encryption keys, Every radio node defines its own address by the pair of keys it has ge
asciilifeform: nerated for itself...' etc.
asciilifeform: ( linked document is a riot, generous admixture of liberasty, dumbest possible architectural ??? , perl duct tape, junk electronics, etc )
lobbes: Lulzy "We have tested image transfers using Google's WebP format to try conserve bandwidth as much as possible, but the lack of support in several browsers has given us second thoughts."
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835616 << I first read this line as "negrated for itself"
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 17:33 asciilifeform: nerated for itself...' etc.
BingoBoingo: And was shocked mostly with the though "it"s can rate?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835618 << afaik every single pseudo-gossipd ( and counting just the ones that proceeded past vapour ) ran head first into this failure of imagination, where somehow the only worthwhile payload is general-purpose derp ip traffic incl lolcats
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 18:54 lobbes: Lulzy "We have tested image transfers using Google's WebP format to try conserve bandwidth as much as possible, but the lack of support in several browsers has given us second thoughts."
asciilifeform: ( given as avoiding said wall of idjicy inescapably requires 'structure of authority' (tm)(r) )
asciilifeform: the sw repeater item, for instance, only becomes thinkable once you dispense with 'allcomers' and realize that there's no reason to forward anything not signed with l1 key, etc
asciilifeform: ( deadly simple algo : listen for packet at all times, if received one where nonce incremented and rsa sig is valid, that's now the new packet, and now it, instead of prev, gets pulsed ( http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-05#1831796 ) out )
a111: Logged on 2018-07-05 16:40 mircea_popescu: current gear can't deal with pulse piracy
asciilifeform: put a coupla dozen of these on each continent , and you get l1 'internet' .
asciilifeform: ( observe that there is no reason why all of'em gotta answer to ~same~ l1 key. item oughta survive a defection or 2, if built correctly. )
asciilifeform: consider how many 'insoluble' engineering problems vanish when you remove the nonsensical 'must work for 8 billion meatsacks' condition.
BingoBoingo: And in local cardboard artwork unveilled before tomorrow's independence day: http://vivirsinmiedo.com.uy/ << The Uruguayos want a Gendarmie, More bodies in prisons, and Night Raids!!!
asciilifeform misread 'vivir in mierde'
mircea_popescu: !!rated lobbes
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated lobbes 3 at 2017/02/08 17:11:19 << eulora logs + auction bot, and altogether a very solid lordship candidate.
mircea_popescu: !!rate lobbes 3 his lordship the lord of the auction house
mircea_popescu: !!rated spyked
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated spyked 2 at 2017/08/19 17:53:59 << aka Lucian Mogosanu, arm guy and other things. e-known him for years.
mircea_popescu: !!rate spyked 3 his lordship the lord crypto-alchemist
mircea_popescu: ave1 i dunno if you've seen the republican license btw ? not like we give out ~anything~ that's "legally" usable by the pantsuit tards.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835506 << indeed, and it is quite a wonder i'm still about, right, seeing how slave mutiny could result in my being strangled overnight and therefore it already has. this is mp coming to you loud and clear from the afterlyf ?
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 04:28 ave1: I find the 'if it can happen, it will happen' a strange argument. Let's say you let a friend stay in your house while you are away for a couple of months? Yes, he could destroy the house and steal the contents, still this arrangement works and has worked for many friends.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835511 << it's really not at all the intention to prevent smart people from improving on the client. if anyone looks even vaguely like he could reverse engineer his pocket flashlight or anything, i'm quite sure he'd find self in some sort of productive arrangement in short order.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 09:42 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834921 <-- I'm sold on the idea i. in particular for eulora, and ii. otherwise for it to be established on a case-by-case basis. for (i), I see nothing wrong with e.g. challenging users to reverse-engineer the client (or maybe I'm just nostalgic about game cracking/trainers).
mircea_popescu: after all, what the fuck are we even doing here ? not like it has ~yet~ happened someone with head screwed on straight got turned away.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835516 << you don't take my meaning. the machine doesn't care about your political corectness. it only sees those people involved that are actually people. if your dog shits in my lawn im not gonna complain to dog ; and if idiot miscompiles code into a pile of shit, the machine's mute sadness will not be directed at idiot.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 09:53 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1835039 <-- this imho doesn't make asciilifeform an idiot, it makes user responsible for whatever setup he runs the binary on. the same guarantee would be given for hypothetical linux kernel with changed abi as for mswindows kernel. as much as the word of heathens are not to be trusted, heathen did promise e.g. https://archive.is/KD183#selection-248.64-248.65 . so imho misbehaving kernel will just be
mircea_popescu: because this is what subhumanity is all about : "anonimity", right, the incapacity to mean anything to anyone.
mircea_popescu: !!rated ave1
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated ave1 2 at 2018/05/17 04:02:57 << produced the holy grail : http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-15#1813760
mircea_popescu: !!rate ave1 3 his lordship the lord logiciel
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835525 << man alone ; just because they fail at anything they try doesn't mean much. of course they do, that's precisely how we ended up with the turdsoup.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 12:51 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835519 << guilfanov spent years raging at 'pirates', planting boobytraps, even implemented his infamous 'church interdict' against anyone known to employ ida 'traitors' , then still ended up selling his firm to usg.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835530 << i think it's a very stupid idea, and i don't mean this mildly, but stupid in a superlative way, because what is contemplated is a ~fixed price~ for an ~unspecified product~. this is EXACTLY like sootheby's selling "auction win tickets" whereby you get to win "any one auction". it;s like trying to implement lemon markets where they don't naturally exist, and it screams deep misunder
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 12:54 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835502 << the commercial lisp people work (worked? prior to being swallowed by usg) this way. e.g. allegro.
mircea_popescu: standing of what anything even is, money, prices, price formation, control, you name it.
mircea_popescu: the only known usage that's defensible is eg usg selling indian's land to white settlers ; and the reason it's defensible has nothing to do with anything here considered, and everything to do with the banal observation that some men are sexually stimulated by a simulacrum of resistence put up by woman.
mircea_popescu: ie, it worked because a) settlers were idiots (which they weren) and b) government was spurious (which it was).
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835532 << yup, a very elegant item indeed. what the empire calls "embargo", essentially.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 12:57 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835489 << note that it specifically was an example of a seekrit with strictly limited lifespan -- once there are '9000' repeaters, the need to keep the details under wraps vanishes
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835536 << such a fucking injun. how, just HOW does one get so fucking stupid. "jwz" amirite, "he only wanted to". this existence is too burdensome for the likes of special cunthead.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 13:00 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835518 << linus is not immortal, and i expect that he will lose control of kernel -- just as he stupidly lost control of his trademark to 'linux foundation' (y'know, with gavin on staff) -- even before dies
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835554 >> no, here we disagree. both rms AND ers lines of socialism (called "free" and "open" source in-universe) are attempting to bake in the conclusion of socialism ("everything that ever crawled out of a cunt is sacred") while allowing you to dispute the conclusions. i am not interested in their idiotic "disputations". the issue, with BOTH approaches, quite indistinguishably, is exactly
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 13:35 asciilifeform: diana_coman: asciilifeform's pov re the retardation of 'open sores' , rms et al, is that they are tards not because they throw open the coad to allcomers but because they have no concept of wot , therefore were unable to conceptualize vtronics .
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 17:15 mircea_popescu: but anyway, back to the upstream : https://archive.is/9zD8D#selection-9.3336-9.4865 the whole thing is rather damaging of bernstein's own standing and credibility. he engages in this sort of behaviours, he isn't much of a man, and certainly the sordid tale of his misbehaviour disabused me of any intention of rating him on the basis of his work.
mod6: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835645 << I was just thinking that over a long enough time-span, sekrets tend to not stay sekret, that's all.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 23:52 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835506 << indeed, and it is quite a wonder i'm still about, right, seeing how slave mutiny could result in my being strangled overnight and therefore it already has. this is mp coming to you loud and clear from the afterlyf ?
mircea_popescu: it is NOT FUCKING PERMISSIBLE to "love all your sons equally". fuck you, there is no such thing, that's for their dumbass mother, because she's too stupid to distinguish cocks (and btw, if your "monogamous" "wife" "loves all her children equally", time to start looking carefully at the milkmen, they contributed to that brood as a foregone conclusion.)
mircea_popescu: so no, in treating all comers equally they PRODUCED the problem. because if father is incapable of rejecting you there's exactly 0 incentive to anything but gabriel_laddelize/adlai/kanzure/etc all fucking day long.
mircea_popescu: the ~fucking reason~ "anonimity" as understood by the "cipherpunk" bla bla idiots (ie, http://trilema.com/2012/anonimity-or-the-urban-versus-rural-dispute/ item) even fucking exists is because of the whole "no identity needed to software".
mod6: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835659 << I apologize, I was just being stupid I guess.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 00:05 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835530 << i think it's a very stupid idea, and i don't mean this mildly, but stupid in a superlative way, because what is contemplated is a ~fixed price~ for an ~unspecified product~. this is EXACTLY like sootheby's selling "auction win tickets" whereby you get to win "any one auction". it;s like trying to implement lemon markets where they don't naturally exist, and it screams deep misunder
mircea_popescu: all modern evil in the field flows from this original sin of the idiots involved, and no it shan't be passed in silence. had they done this right and equally flunked all other parts as they did flunk them, we'd still be mostly-right rather than thoroughly-broken today.
mircea_popescu: not about you, mod6 dun sweat it.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835659 << iirc allegro was moar complicated than this, tho tbf i am unsure whether less or ~more~ scammy . it was a nonfixed price (no cost for src actually but had to 1) be existing customer and 2) sign seekricy contract ) and price of being customer in turn wasn't 'fixed' ( 'lispworks' co. iirc charged royalties ) . as for 'specified', this was 1 of the rare products where yes specified ( common l
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 00:05 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835530 << i think it's a very stupid idea, and i don't mean this mildly, but stupid in a superlative way, because what is contemplated is a ~fixed price~ for an ~unspecified product~. this is EXACTLY like sootheby's selling "auction win tickets" whereby you get to win "any one auction". it;s like trying to implement lemon markets where they don't naturally exist, and it screams deep misunder
asciilifeform: isp spec + their proprietary tack-ons were publicly specced )
mircea_popescu: yes, but the ~product~ is not specified. if you go to supermarket and buy something, you buy ~the specified something~. it's not an issue of whether "property is specified" in the general sense.
asciilifeform: i dun think i've ever bought a product more exhaustively specified than allegro
asciilifeform: what am i missing here
mircea_popescu: otherwise, go ahead and make me a price on your daughter. "what do you plan on doing with her ?" "none of your damn business".
asciilifeform: aah the ~royaltied~ (customer) product
mircea_popescu: "well it's a different price if you intend to give her half your assets towards the end of your productive life or if you intend to make her salami"
asciilifeform: i dun recall their ever asking ( beyond the traditional 'industrial/academia/usg' selector )
mircea_popescu: so then what the fuck meaning could the pricing possibly fucking have.
mircea_popescu: if you buy a gift certificate from walmart or w/e, it's for ~total cost~ not for ~item count~.
asciilifeform: iirc it was (if 'industrial') a fixed cut of proceeds. which was imho asinine .
mircea_popescu: right, because why am i paying the same % whether i wrote a hello world on top of their allegro or an ai.
asciilifeform: funnily enuff both franz (allegro) and lispworks co. exist still. ( under , afaik, satanic ownership )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835666 << i actually have 0 handle on what makes linus tick. from his posted material he resembles archaetypical 'alcoholic with moments of clarity'
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 00:10 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835536 << such a fucking injun. how, just HOW does one get so fucking stupid. "jwz" amirite, "he only wanted to". this existence is too burdensome for the likes of special cunthead.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835563 << i can't imagine how this could ~even in principle~ be broken.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 13:38 asciilifeform: asciilifeform's perspective is prolly coloured by his having been paid to both make and break such 'protections' in the saeculum many times.
mircea_popescu: i mean... so mocky makes a client, i see his client works, i allocate his binaries signatures, and now evilmocky does what ? doesn't follow server comms spec ? can't connect. is smart enough to follow them, and puts the work in ? can connect, server will report expected hashes. does he distribute this thing, so user can see the hash of his program and the hash the program tells the server don't match ? suppose he does. what n
mircea_popescu: ow ? mocky gets credit for one more user, and evilmocky gets ???
mircea_popescu: i suppose he could root the box, but could have done that way the fuck easier than all this complex dance.
mircea_popescu: there's absolutely nothing breakable here, not even in principle.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i was speaking narrowly of scenario where $luser lifts $expectedhash from $officialclient and has his $shitclient feed server $expectedhash when prompted
mircea_popescu: and this results in ?
asciilifeform: $shitclient operates. which unless i misunderstand was undesirable ?
mircea_popescu: i suppose at the furthermost it could result in 1. luser installing that ; 2. luser being displeased with shitclient performance ; 3. luser whining at mocky ; 4. mocky asking him to check his binary hash.
mircea_popescu: i mean... ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nobody cares ABOUT THAT.
mircea_popescu: if it operates mocky gets the credit.
mircea_popescu: if it operates but poorly i suppose the argument could be brought mocky's good reputation is being stained ; however it's so damned easy to check.
mircea_popescu: even windows has terminal ; even there something like hash file exists.
asciilifeform: so hash could just as easily be an arbitrary client id string ?
asciilifeform: then i've nuffin.
mircea_popescu: cuz there's nothing there.
mircea_popescu: basically you read words and expect they mean imperial meanings. but they fucking don't.
asciilifeform: it very much pattern-matched in my head, what aol did with its chat client ( iirc also demanded 'client hash' as part of protocol )
mircea_popescu: i believe ; but it's a heuristic past its use by date.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835675 << what part of the 'rms problem' does vtronics per se not cure ?
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 00:17 mircea_popescu: so no, in treating all comers equally they PRODUCED the problem. because if father is incapable of rejecting you there's exactly 0 incentive to anything but gabriel_laddelize/adlai/kanzure/etc all fucking day long.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 02:42 asciilifeform: 'they cloink a coupla with the sledgehammer so as to break down the find into shards the size they can fit in a pocket, after which they stick it on their oxcart'
mircea_popescu: there IS such a thing as "you're too fucking stupid and unread to participate in THIS class. go take remedial deheadshittery 101."
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 19:44 mircea_popescu: windows will either compete with tmsr or go away. if it competes -- it becomes. if it goes away -- it becomes. there is no choice and there is no will.
mircea_popescu: yes, but this is the avenue of that!
asciilifeform: if they 'cloink' , either result is the usual unremarkable crud a la the 'fg clone' , or it is a sane production, in the latter case author gets invited here . in the former case, what exactly does it do ? afaik nuffin
hanbot: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834927 << one think i haven't seen mentioned yet is that this creates a potential security risk, inasmuch as there'd be a real incentive for bad actors to attempt working their way into l1 solely to gain access to source code.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 15:44 mircea_popescu: thoughts plox! (and i specifically want everyone to say at least an ack, so let's page asciilifeform ave1 ben_vulpes BingoBoingo danielpbarron diana_coman hanbot lobbes mod6 phf spyked trinque )
mircea_popescu: "the house is either dirty or clean ; if dirty, it gets cleanned ; if clean, we watc htv". sure. but what's discussed here is the mechanisms of cleanning, specifically, not the general broad theory of housekeep.
asciilifeform: hanbot: of all the possible problems, i can't picture how this, enemy already has all the incentive one could wish for to 'try to work into l1'
a111: Logged on 2015-11-16 21:01 ascii_field: would let you wander off to wherever spies go when a war is over. You know why?' he said. 'No,' I said. 'Because you could never have served the enemy as well as you served us,' he said. 'I realized that almost all the ideas that I hold now, that make me unashamed of anything I may have felt or done as a Nazi, came not from Hitler, not from Goebbels, not from Himmler — but from you.' He took my hand. 'You alone kept m
mircea_popescu: hanbot fine, but this is the dilemma : either being in l1 is practically meaningless, in which case nobody cares if they're in or out ; or else l1 is practically meaningful, in which case everybody cares whether they're in or out and consequently some might care to be in just to be in, to assuage the self-knoweldge of inadequacy.
mircea_popescu: seems unavoidable.
hanbot: asciilifeform : possibly code is concrete enough an itam to be perceived by previously blind enemies? if suddenly a gazillion diametrics/amstans/whoever, could get obnoxious too.
hanbot: anyway no, i don't see a way out of the "problem".
mircea_popescu: in the end, all living things are only as alive as their food filtering allows.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835608 << speaking of diana_coman do you recall where the whole food / pay for server thing was announced ?
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 17:04 diana_coman: the overall idea is to pay authors of clients based on how much their clients are actually used
hanbot: right, at what point is enemy that manages a pass an enemy, etc.
mircea_popescu: hanbot "and this portion of whale liver is ~really~ krill #5460985409865" "what is here meant by really ?"
asciilifeform: hanbot: nobody cancelled 'need to know'(tm) and other traditional mechanisms of prolonging life of seekritz. but i find it worrisome that mircea_popescu seems to think that keeping coad confidential doesn't cost anything. it does cost.
mircea_popescu: what does it cost ?
asciilifeform: it costs for instance that you don't want it on travel lappy etc.
mircea_popescu: you mean me or impersonal you ?
asciilifeform: impersonal. the folx other than mircea_popescu , whose travel lappy doesn't go in diplo pouch and guarded in hotel by squad of musketeers.
hanbot: lol
mircea_popescu: lol i misread, "it costs for instance that you don't want to travel with laptop."
mircea_popescu: anyways, yes, i guess there's that, yes. but i mean whom does it cost ? the people owning the code, not you.
asciilifeform: right. hence http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835598 , some folx can justify to themselves the cost , then why not, pay . there are projects that asciilifeform keeps in zeroizable ram while decrypted. it's a bitch, but in some cases called for.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 16:04 asciilifeform: Mocky: i in fact do not have objection to it either way, it is a stylistic decision for diana_coman & mircea_popescu , not mine to make
mircea_popescu: the fact that asciilifeform hasn't to date read the (published) eulora client source doesn't cost ~ asciilifeform ~ anything. it costs minigame something, presumably.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform sure, which is why the ~code author's option~. obviously one's well advised to think about things.
asciilifeform: i've read some possibly asciilifeform-able selections from it ( diana_coman's mpi ) , to date that's iirc all
mircea_popescu: right. because code being open does not mean automatically anything about it being read, at all.
asciilifeform: aha, i have 0 argument against 'author oughta be able to decide to work on proj with selected group in confidence' , why would i.
mircea_popescu: perhaps even on the contrary.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well i suppose this is basically the thing here -- a relaxation allowing specified mechanisms for a specified sort of "work in confidence" to still count.
asciilifeform: my only disagreement was re the notion that this is necessarily The Right Thing for erry proggy, as some sort of counter to 'rmsism'
mircea_popescu: afaik this was 100% your notion.
asciilifeform: possibly
asciilifeform: my disagreement bottle then is empty.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835611 << no ; the idea is that there will be separation between objective costs of running (passed on to the client in the shape of food necessities to keep character alive -- starve it long enough and it dies) and the implicitly risky nature of euloran activity. i don't want to get into detail here, but i believe it's the correct approach, allocation, rather than trying a pauschal approac
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 17:13 lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835608 << this was a key piece I was missing as well. For some reason I thought scheme was 'lock down production of binaries so as to allow authors to work out their own pay-for-client mechanism.' Whole thing makes way more sense to me nao
mircea_popescu: h where "your results pay for your ineptitude using the platform as well as my costs providing it".
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: do the subscribers currently pay ?
mircea_popescu: now ~a portion of that~ can very well be kicked back to client authors, if nothing else to cover the significant effort of eg a complete reskining. which'd give the player the benefit of "do i want to play this game looking like high fantasy or scandalous nudity"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not atm.
asciilifeform: all of this makes considerably moar sense nao.
mircea_popescu: it's not done irl very much because http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835457 ; but if i go to the arcade i'd much prefer an arcade where "you owe us 0.03 cents for electricity + roof ; and 1 dollar because you suck at throwing these damned darts"
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 03:01 mircea_popescu: it is however not the customer's problem that the fair price point for borland whatever is 0.0006 except borland can';t chage that because must be 9.95 or else visa monopoly throws a fit.
mircea_popescu: or vice-versa, "here's your free plushie for throwing things at geese well, and a 0.03 bill for keeping the lights on"
asciilifeform: erry arcade i've ever been to actually worked like this
mircea_popescu: alright then.
asciilifeform: ( admittedly the plushies much less plush nao than 20yrs ago )
asciilifeform: anecdote: asciilifeform's elder brother 'lived long enuff' to see sov arcades at length. the infamous 'sea battle' machine universally had a prize compartment, that would open if some outlandish score were achieved. one time, bag of coins, and he managed it. rusty compartment... grinds open. of course empty. arcade keeper 'what did you expect, didja really think you're the first'
asciilifeform: 'what was in there' 'who knows'
trinque: this fits with my cartoon head-simulation of the soviet era
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 20:55 asciilifeform: consider how many 'insoluble' engineering problems vanish when you remove the nonsensical 'must work for 8 billion meatsacks' condition.
mircea_popescu: trinque to be genuine soviet, it was supposed to have been stolen @factory.
asciilifeform: for all anybody knew.. it was
mircea_popescu: so after 6 months of production the decision was taken not to put anything in anymore.
mircea_popescu: so it can be stolen "by the whole people".
mircea_popescu: soviet has its own sort of logic.
mircea_popescu: i always thought the 80s verbiage about "capitalism more adaptable" was a fucking riot.
mircea_popescu: sovietism A LOT more adaptable, adapted self right into fucking grave, with a whole lotta "spreading works"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835632 << and by "the uruguayos" we mean the ustard 5th column, of course.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 21:10 BingoBoingo: And in local cardboard artwork unveilled before tomorrow's independence day: http://vivirsinmiedo.com.uy/ << The Uruguayos want a Gendarmie, More bodies in prisons, and Night Raids!!!
a111: Logged on 2017-03-08 22:29 mircea_popescu: in other lulz : femen, the "ukrainian" organisation is selling shit priced in dollars via 2checkout.com, the columbus ohio us corp.
asciilifeform: vivirenmierde.com.uy!11
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 01:23 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835632 << and by "the uruguayos" we mean the ustard 5th column, of course.
mircea_popescu: http://www.dianacoman.com/2018/07/17/discriminatory-code-sharing/ << i'd say this is broadly correct ; though i somewhat disagree with both ave1's take (as in http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835508 ) as well as diana_coman implict take here ( say in "hat they decide to do with it, if anything, is of course their own call entirely." ) in the following limited sense :
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 04:44 ave1: And the whole thing affirms the power/status of the Lords. I.E. when an author goes against a Lords wishes or AWOL it is then in the power of that Lord to contact another author and give him the source etc.
mircea_popescu: the codas antecessors put on things are not to be ignored wholesale. yes if those antecessors are, esentially, the http://trilema.com/2011/oricine-poate-sa/ notion of "mula", ie indistinct biomass, then whatever they thought they said is incapable of meaning in the first place. yet if those antecessors are actual people with actual keys, what they say is meaningful and the meaning probably important.
mircea_popescu: and so if some guy publishes some piece of software saying "and this is to be used on sundays only", the proper decision before the republican is "do i use it on sundays or do i not use it at all ?". none of this bars discussion, "what the fuck is wrong with you, reiser ?!" nor in extremis "fu, i'll use it when i use it", nor even "in my considered opinion your sunday's my wednesday" reinterpetation.
mircea_popescu: but still, i think the proper view of the matter is in the vein of how romans regarded testaments. because really, every published anything's a will.
mircea_popescu: and the author thereby dies.
mircea_popescu: not butchering the forefathers' work, specifically NOT doing inane miseries like http://trilema.com/2016/there-has-not-yet-been-seen-a-simple-thing-even-if-were-drowning-in-simple-people/ ; or like bowdler's "work" ; or like ~TRANSLATING THE SCRIPTURES~ is an important, perhaps the principal measurement of a culture. the fact that dante's work "is no longer relevant to italian society today" simply means "italian society toda
mircea_popescu: y" is not distinguishable from the african monkeys it spent millenia distinguishing itself from, only to eventually succumb. no more, and nothing else.
mircea_popescu: for which reason i don't think we're to take lightly the author.
esthlos: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1835265 << anyone willing to audit my converage and see if I'm doing an ok job?
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 17:50 mircea_popescu: AND THEN SAY WHAT IT WAS ABOUT
esthlos: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835578 << my dad's favorite! (I like demonished man, neh)
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 13:44 asciilifeform: ( recall alfred bester's 'stars my destination' )
esthlos: err demolished
esthlos: btw, funny interaction in fiat world. dude: "so let me guess, you like lisp." esthlos: "wow, how did you get that?" dude: "well, you're a differential geometer" esthlos: "wow, ok" dude: "so you must like excel then" esthlos: "huh??" dude: "well, it's very similar to lisp"
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