mircea_popescu: similar how ?!
mircea_popescu: esthlos whats a "modle" ?
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2018/morning-coffee-ocean-side/ << Trilema - Morning coffee ocean side
mats: a peltier teg looks ideal for the parasitic relay power plant
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835801 -> right, I can see that reading although it wasn't my point; by "their call" I mean that they get to evaluate (through whatever process, possibly including "what is wrong with you" or anything else) and decide, not that they ignore upfront ; how would ignoring of author even make sense if code is not ignored ?
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 02:01 mircea_popescu: http://www.dianacoman.com/2018/07/17/discriminatory-code-sharing/ << i'd say this is broadly correct ; though i somewhat disagree with both ave1's take (as in http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835508 ) as well as diana_coman implict take here ( say in "hat they decide to do with it, if anything, is of course their own call entirely." ) in the following limited sense :
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 04:35 mircea_popescu: similar how ?!
esthlos: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835817 << you haven't heard? it's all the rage with the youth these days (esthlos needs to run a spellcheck phase)
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 05:16 mircea_popescu: esthlos whats a "modle" ?
diana_coman: is that moodle?
esthlos: diana_coman: heh, it was supposed to be "model"
diana_coman: oh, I see; lol
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835696 << i believe at least in the case of allegro the ownership is the dks/symbolics model (or perhaps soekris model), guy who made it sells it and there's enough sales money to periodically fund developers, add new features, etc (considering that some of the contracts are finance and gov)
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 00:38 asciilifeform: funnily enuff both franz (allegro) and lispworks co. exist still. ( under , afaik, satanic ownership )
phf: the usgistic appearance of the site is a ruse, very similar to soekris in this respect. the main difference from soekris is that there are no manufacturing costs, so can be "alive" for a price of couple of servers
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835681 << in allegro's case the model was (is?) a vendor partnership, they don't sell to all comers. you have to have a sit down where you essentially pitch your project to them and work out a payment structure, some combination of buy in, royalties, etc. similar to some of the banking vendors i worked with, like kx
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 00:33 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835659 << iirc allegro was moar complicated than this, tho tbf i am unsure whether less or ~more~ scammy . it was a nonfixed price (no cost for src actually but had to 1) be existing customer and 2) sign seekricy contract ) and price of being customer in turn wasn't 'fixed' ( 'lispworks' co. iirc charged royalties ) . as for 'specified', this was 1 of the rare products where yes specified ( common l
asciilifeform: phf: seems like that was lispworks, not allegro
phf: asciilifeform: you have them backwards
phf: but i also don't know how you get the source from lispworks, if at all. they have a fixed price list though.
asciilifeform: see, i easily get'em confused, had 1 bought Officially back in usgschwitz, and other -- warez.
asciilifeform: both dead to me nao. i never signed the pact for the src, and i won't use today a compiler for which i lack src, full stop.
phf: are you talking in the context of tmsr, or your commercial work? i had both of them bought at some point, back in my common lisp consulting days it was a no brainer, the cost was always a small fraction of the contract, but the technical advantage immense. but then i don't have the source code for many things that i make my food with
asciilifeform: phf: in commercial work i use things that would turn the strongest stomach. now, as always, speaking of civilized work.
asciilifeform: phf: i suspect that the diff could be accounted for by diff in problem domains; but i did not find the advantage to be 'immense'
asciilifeform: ( certainly was advantage, but small )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835819 << not for sw relay. sw antenna ideally is a 20meter-hypotenuse triangle. in the woods. what in the woods is hot enuff to run a teg ? ( not considering strontium90 barrels here, but compact and inexpensive items. ) afaik pv panel is the only pill.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 10:20 mats: a peltier teg looks ideal for the parasitic relay power plant
phf: well lispworks has capi, that doesn't have an non-proprietary equivalent, so if your work requires any kind of gui, you're stuck with some very dodgy solutions (in the early days i even used emacs/slime as a gui backed by ccl)
phf: allegro is batteries included, and if they're not they'll add the batteries for you, so for most practical purposes you don't need to fuck with quicklisp and the variety of dodgy quicklisp packages. but allegro generally made a lot of, i don't know how to put it, old skill lisp-machine-y decisions to make sure your development experience is superior. instead of being sticklers for the standard, and not venturing outside of it, they kept adding nooks an
phf: d crannies that allow for superior experience
asciilifeform: as result it had own tcpip thing, db, etc yes
asciilifeform: and as consequence you become its thrall 'for life' unless you feel like rewriting all yer coad
phf: for example in naggum's "history of time" he talks about having a package tz with symbols for all the timezones, and if you access say tz:est or whatever, the timezone is transparently loaded. can only be done in allegro
asciilifeform: i had this experience prior, with 'mathematica', and was reluctant to repeat it, so largely avoided serious use of the closed lisps.
asciilifeform: phf: sounds like a , what, 100ln proggy
phf: well, 100 ln patch to the compiler, because it can't be done as a user proggy (e.g. (symbol-value 'foo) triggers a mechanism of some sort, without an indirection)
asciilifeform: hm sounds like they're breaking standard then
asciilifeform: in exactly the way that got naggum pissing on franz bavk in the day
mats: asciilifeform: this parasitic relay incorporates esp8266 in urban environment
phf: no why? they don't have to
asciilifeform: mats: ah you were thinking of the old mircea_popescu relay, aite
asciilifeform: phf: how not ? seems like if you add a feature that 'must be in compiler', you ipso facto broke standard
mats: the stamp sized tegs i’ve seen are pricy though, ranging from $5-15
asciilifeform: mats: ever do range test with subj ?
phf: asciilifeform: you can still add a feature without violating the standard, but there's tones of features like that that can only exist as part of compiler and also not violate a standard. lazy symbol is a particularly good example: the symbol behaves according to standard, but accessing its value "stops the world" for all practical purposes, calls some other machinery, "resumes the world" with the value provided by machinery.
asciilifeform: phf: holyfuq, what is this if not breaking standard ? standard permits no such horror
phf: asciilifeform: please show me where "permits no such horrors"
mats: asciilifeform: nope
asciilifeform: phf: i cannot show you, as it does not mention every possible abuse, lol
phf: you should know that common lisp standard is not the whole, but rather the top, i.e. the commonality of features between multiple lisp machines. there are parts that explicitly under specified to allow for a variety of behaviors
asciilifeform: phf: but asciilifeform is a subscriber to the 'what is not mandatory is forbidden' school of prog lang standard.
phf: particularly since that particular autoload machinery was already in genera
asciilifeform: phf: i do know, yes, that the standard was stunted at birth.
asciilifeform: and broken by erry vendor in existence . but this is not a point of pride, imho, for it.
phf: standard by they way allows for a subset of "such horrors" in form of symbol-macrolet
asciilifeform: phf: as you can prolly tell, asciilifeform has an old-fashioned, ГОСТ-like view of standards. in that a standard really ~must~ specifically make vendor lock-in impossible. and if it fails to do this, it is broken and oughta be corrected ( or thrown out. )
asciilifeform: think 'iso m3 screw' .
asciilifeform: cl standard is substantially closer to an ~actual~ standard than, e.g., c++, in the it is ~actually possible~ to program in standard cl. but it really gotta be reopened ( perhaps one day, tmsr cl?? ) and completed.
asciilifeform: amstan (~amstan@aichallenge/admin/amstan) has joined #trilema << lol!!
phf: asciilifeform: oh yeah, i get it, the approach requires a GOST cpu with a GOST bus etc. etc. right now the situation is mildly depressing (though perhaps that's not the right word), even Ada standard turned out to be dodgy (very precisely specifies some shitty solutions)
asciilifeform: phf: say what you will re ada standard, but e.g. ffa is ( afaik! ) a nontrivial and at same time ada2012-compliant proggy.
phf: asciilifeform: vtools are also ada2012 complaint, but...
asciilifeform: ( ~ffa_calc~ is not, as it uses a gnatism to grab the commandline args. )
asciilifeform: ada standard is just about a hair's breadth away from a proper , Troo standard.
asciilifeform: ( i.e. one where you can dispense with all vendorisms )
phf: as far as ada is concerned, the tmsr ada is a subset of standard, that only exists in your head, and can be somewhat inferred from ffa. that's no standard
asciilifeform: subset -> complies with standard.
asciilifeform: ( though yes, eventually i would like to codify the subset as a standard in own right. )
phf: or is tmsr ada whatever ave1 put into his musl build, which is, worse, a political situation. diana_coman can argue for her ffi stuff to be included, should i be arguing for my get/put stuff to be included?
asciilifeform: phf: why would either of these belong in a compiler ?!
asciilifeform: phf: ave1's item is simply a frozen snapshot of (iirc 2016) gnat.
phf: asciilifeform: if you haven't looked, ave1's item is a significantly cut subset of ada's standard, where, e.g. http://btcbase.org/patches/zfp_2_noc/tree/adainclude/a-textio.ads is text_io (compare to real text_io)
asciilifeform: phf: are we speaking of http://ave1.org/2018/building-gnat-on-musl-updated-tar-line/ or http://ave1.org/2018/gnat-zero-foot-print-take-2-no-c/ ? these are separate items
phf: oh i was talking about the later, since that's the avant guard of the ada situation
phf: but i remember diana_coman saying something about her code not compiling in ave1's because interfaces.c is not included. i'm not sure if she was talking about the former or the later
asciilifeform: phf: noshit, most c proggy won't build on a gcc with no libc!
asciilifeform: when folx must write with no libc, i.e. bios work, they make own and include with the coad.
asciilifeform: i posted a simple example of this kind of thing, earlier, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-06#1832319
a111: Logged on 2018-07-06 17:09 asciilifeform: 'make emu' builds variant that runs in qemu and (if you have x86-64 qemu) boots it. 'make sage' ditto but boots on a cold sage ( see http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1887 & elsewhere ) . 'make sage-warm' boots on a warm sage.
phf: interfaces.c is not a libc concern, it's an ffi. the situation is that C can't be linked to an Ada, even if the C part has _no libc_ in it
asciilifeform: admittedly i haven't tested the avant guard ave1 item yet.
asciilifeform: but given as i do not expect most nontrivial c proggies to build with it, i suspect that the 2 compilers will remain in use in parallel for a while.
asciilifeform: imho a trooly clean gnat will be entirely devoid of cisms.
asciilifeform: ( or at the very least, will connect them to a default-off toggle switch. )
phf: ah, that explains the misunderstandings. ave1's no-c compiler has a completely custom ada runtime library, which is a tiny subset of the whole standard. http://btcbase.org/patches/zfp_2_noc/tree/ the adainclude part
asciilifeform: phf: adacore actually distributes a compiler like this. but it is commercialware, and i've never seen it.
asciilifeform: it's what the space probe etc. stuff gets built with.
phf: asciilifeform: i thought that you were arguing that the subset of ada runtime that's included in zfp "ought to be enough for everyone", since at the moment i believe it compiles ffa, my apologies.
asciilifeform: phf: my specific motivation in asking ave1 for this, was to enable building e.g. ffa where binary is small enuff to manually disasm and audit.
asciilifeform: ( as well as fitting into microcontrollers and other non-x86 )
phf: right, an ada with an absolute minimum/custom runtime
asciilifeform: phf: first it must work with asciilifeform's item . and only then i can dare to speak of 'enuff for erryone!'.
phf: i'm starting to think that maybe it doesn't (my memory of logs are hazy on that point, perhaps ave1 mentioned that he's working on getting ffa_calc working), because i believe you're also using interfaces.c at least to declare the types that you get in/out of c system calls
asciilifeform: phf: iirc i used cism for put/get on stdio, and for cmdline.
asciilifeform: ( there isn't actually an alternative, aside from -- respectively -- using gnat's gargantual text_io lib, and permitting secondarystackism. )
asciilifeform: in embedded machine , will point out, neither knob is necessary
asciilifeform: ( hence why the logic is brought out to ffa_calc, rather than part of the lib proper -- to emphasize this )
asciilifeform: ave1 iirc is currently in the process of baking cheap and angry asm-on-x64-linux replacements for both knobs.
asciilifeform: ( working from asm examples that asciilifeform posted recently )
ave1: phf, asciilifeform's ffacalc uses only a few C functions all for IO / exit and command line arguments. I just have to provide the right functions in the ZFP library for ffacalc (currently first on conveyor but also some real life priorities these weeks)
ave1: yes the other thing is to get the os out and I'm reading your code
phf: i took a different approach, i wrote _to ada standard_ with the idea that each interface can be substituted with a custom system specific replacement. for example my character_io is a new_line aware replacement of the original, that relies on ada.sequential_io. now if i wanted to retarget to small machine, i'd write a custom sequential_io that uses machine specific calls for byte read/write
asciilifeform: phf: i can't say this is a wrong approach
asciilifeform: phf: it will require moar massage to actually produce a compact binary, and so i did not go with it; but it is still prolly The Right Thing long-term
ave1: phf, yes that's the right approach
asciilifeform: phf: when i started out, i had no notion that anyone would help me by producing a working libc-less gnat.
asciilifeform: assumed that i would have to do it with own hands.
ave1: for overview there will probably will be about 6 flavours of zfp I think based on: MUSL C, X86_64 ASM + linux, X86_64 ASM + no os, AARCH64 + linux, AARCH64 + no os.
asciilifeform: phf: observe however that it is impossible to make use of your approach re cmdline args. the standard unambiguously mandates variably-lenghted strings ( i.e. dualstackism ) for that.
asciilifeform: phf: so i explicitly rejected the standard's routine.
asciilifeform: to date this is asciilifeform's only explicit crossing-out of ada2012 standard's item.
ave1: the same with interfaces.c, a version without secondary stack can be easily made (I have one already, simple method of cutting out functions), but is then not really ada standard anymore.
asciilifeform: observe that the standard specifically permits disabling secondary stack. but what it doesn't do, is to give you any means of using such things as cmdline args, if you do this.
asciilifeform: ( the spaceprobes people, afaik, handle the problem asciilifeform's way. )
asciilifeform: btw did i ever discuss why i forbid the secondary stack ?
asciilifeform: can't seem to find this discussion in the logs, so i'll summarize , for noobs :
phf: i suspect spaceprobes people don't ever need to start a fresh program either, in a conventional sense
asciilifeform: secondary stack not only requires a fairly bulky bit of initialization logic in erry binary, but also makes it very difficult to reason conclusively about proggy's space usage
asciilifeform: phf: for all i know, ~today's~ spaceprobes fly with java on winblowz. i am speaking of the 'golden age' 1980s-1990s items.
asciilifeform: ave1: dun forget 'mips + no os'
asciilifeform: ave1: that'll be the gold medalist, as it will run on ice40 , i.e. 'tmsr cpu'.
ave1: asciilifeform, noted!
ave1: btw I understood that esa still uses Leon processors with ADA
phf: asciilifeform: yes, they do, i did some research into subj and it's literally java on winblows
ave1: I've played little with the bb-runtimes but the whole build process is based python + gprbuild and needs at least ada 2017 sources.
phf: unlike tmsr, adacore people are not attempting to also _build_ on a spaceprobe ;)
ave1: yes, and they will happily import any old project these days (new code analys framework is based on python, even llvm is now imported etc.)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835829 << no but consider. 1) the guy who makes the least useful (as measured by -- usage) end product has to pay the LEAST in royalties. why ? 2) the guy who makes the most useful end product has to pay the most. why the fuck ? any correct model will have wta, the one guy who owes you most in "royalties" pays 0 because as per the hobbyst discussion etc, he's the guy actually driving your e
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 12:32 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835696 << i believe at least in the case of allegro the ownership is the dks/symbolics model (or perhaps soekris model), guy who made it sells it and there's enough sales money to periodically fund developers, add new features, etc (considering that some of the contracts are finance and gov)
mircea_popescu: xistence altogether. http://trilema.com/2013/youre-the-guy-who-wasnt-good-enough-to-sling-dope/#selection-73.121-73.177 and all that.
mircea_popescu: so no, under no possible lens whatsoever is the "model" anything but the shoddy attempt by the millitantly ignorant to use their steelworking tools & expertise to do "genetic engineering" with.
mircea_popescu: "oh, evidently our model doesn't work, so let's make it % rather than absolute". "yes fuckwit, because these aren't tools, and their use need no justification. they're just toys, for you to play with, oh don't use the scalpel, use the tweezer like thing, looks like this is more of a pull together than a cut apart thingee".
mircea_popescu: phf you see my point ?
ave1: mircea_popescu, what does WTA mean?
mircea_popescu: winner takes all.
mircea_popescu: and to take this discussion on the proper level of generalisation : there's a very strict difference between sanity and idiocy, illustrated best by the http://trilema.com/2018/muma-lui-stefan-cel-mare/#selection-217.0-217.83 vs Luke 15:11-32 in the faux xtian bullshit.
mircea_popescu: specifically : if say BingoBoingo decided to buy himself a farm in that republica oriental ; and if on that farm other than the venezuelana an' the peruana he added a columbiana and whatever else ; and if those produced him over some years a good three dozen offspring, good heifers that they were ; and if his sperm was so utterly macho that all the x'n commited suicide on the spurt out of sheer shame leaving nothing but boys
mircea_popescu: in his lordship's wake
mircea_popescu: THEN bingoboingo would have the following dilemma before him : either tax the one or two products in that tree dozen that are actually smarter than him even, so with the proceeds to buy crutches and prosthetics for the half dozen mongoloids necessarily included by mother nature in the discount three dozen, so as to vaguely push them into a cvasi-semblance of normalcy
phf: vaguely, but i don't know how their real model maps into the failure model we're considering
mircea_popescu: or else to chain the retards to a pole and have them spin it under the whip until they day, to give the one or two kids worth the hassle electricity so they can be online.
mircea_popescu: it's this-or-that, either steal from the worthy to "fix" the unworthy, or else squeeze the unworthy to empower the worthy.
phf: they don't have a pure royalties approach, it's not "well, you'll be making $1mil so you gotta pay us $100k" or similar
mircea_popescu: does that help ?
phf: it's highly likely that their model though is fundamentally contrary to what is being considered, because it's also fundamentally contrary to what pretty much every american artisan does: when you find a rich account, you milk them for all they worth, while giving your work out to poor ones because "building business". in this case franz's failure is systematic, there's nothing else to say. but i believe that given the overall failure they never the le
phf: ss attempted to have a more sensible approach in the right direction
mircea_popescu: in any case, the "fatted calf" that the inept father cut was fucking stolen, and if i sat in judgement over the matter he'd sure as dingleberries hang for it.
mircea_popescu: phf the principal objection is that team of engineers and designers had no apparent fucking inkling that yes, a price structure is something to design.
phf: i don't understand how that's the conclusion, i don't see how if it's done badly (which is not quite clear from even what i know, certainly not from log hearsay) it means that it wasn't done at all
mircea_popescu: well, there's ways to try and fail, and there's ways to not even try at all (and still fail, of course). it seems to me (and maybe i misunderstand) that their efforts are of the latter.
mircea_popescu: you wouldn't credit a maid with a baseball bat in hand that she's "trying to dust the porcelain" and all the shattered fragments about are "accidents", would you ?
mircea_popescu: if she really were trying to do you the service she pretends rather than disservice, she'd be holding a fucking rag.
phf: my understanding of how they work is that they have some kind of financial goal (say $100k per engagement), they know that usually they can't get it upfront, because nobody expects to pay for software, particularly this kind of outlandish numbers. so they have a sit down with you and figure out how you can pay them $100k by other means. taking royalties is one of the possible solutions. of course you can always just meet their price
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835741 -> in 2 parts that I know of: http://trilema.com/2013/statements-regarding-the-mmorpg-under-development-i-v/#selection-41.646-41.733 and http://www.dianacoman.com/2018/04/17/rfc-euloras-communication-protocol-eucomms/#selection-55.5-55.194
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 01:01 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835608 << speaking of diana_coman do you recall where the whole food / pay for server thing was announced ?
diana_coman: I think it was mentioned at other times too but I don't quite recall something else focusing on this or fleshing it out more
phf: you can request and get an explicit price list, with some sort of all comer common options that worked in the past. all of this is hearsay though, because i wasn't the one talking to them when the license was acquired (i was doing mere programming work)
phf: but for all i know they have a traditional american sales approach, where you ask them for license, and they size you up as to how much they can get out of you, and there's pure winging it. i'm missing the "baseball in hands" part though, that's an indicator one way or another.
mircea_popescu: phf and the batshit insane situation of "x per y" doesn't strike as altogether broken ?
mircea_popescu: suppose instead of http://logs.minigame.biz/2018-07-16.log.html#t15:27:14 i "sat down" with mocky to see "how can he pay me 100 bitcoin through other means", because "nobody expects to pay for management". something like that ?!
lobbesbot: Logged on 2018-07-16 15:27:14: <mircea_popescu> what would you need to quit that dumb shit and dedicate yourself full time to making eulora client that doesn't suck ass ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835982 << at one time , on usg throne, i was on receiving end of this treatment, wolfram co flew in emissaries to pitch their various bells an' whistles and 'see how much they can get'
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 15:04 phf: but for all i know they have a traditional american sales approach, where you ask them for license, and they size you up as to how much they can get out of you, and there's pure winging it. i'm missing the "baseball in hands" part though, that's an indicator one way or another.
asciilifeform: ( spoiler : they went home empty )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835984 << hah, interesting, i had nfi that Mocky was a grandfather
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 15:10 mircea_popescu: suppose instead of http://logs.minigame.biz/2018-07-16.log.html#t15:27:14 i "sat down" with mocky to see "how can he pay me 100 bitcoin through other means", because "nobody expects to pay for management". something like that ?!
Mocky is grandfather and also other unlikely things
asciilifeform: http://logs.minigame.biz/2018-07-17.log.html#t00:02:23 << can be 40 - 50% if you're cursed correctly ( i.e. no mortgagism to subtract, no low-taxable 'investment' incomes, etc, just labour )
lobbesbot: Logged on 2018-07-17 00:02:23: <mircea_popescu> i can't believe income tax for 100k a year is <20%.
mircea_popescu: phf specifically, i do not believe "they know that usually they can't get it upfront, because nobody expects to pay for software" is at all related. rather, "they know it makes no sense to get before-the-shipping money". because think in terms of those who invented commerce, to wit http://trilema.com/2014/the-most-serene-republic-and-its-laws/#selection-69.178-69.401 : what the fuck sense does it make for he to pay you ~befor
mircea_popescu: e~ the ships return ?
mircea_popescu: and this sort of sheer lunacy of misexpression, coupled with shocking, indefensible idiocies like ~a magic number~ (really, how the fuck was it obtained, anything OTHER than the usual http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-07#1563435 prolonged into adulthood by that all-powerful pill of neoteny, "hurr durr i am an engineer, aka professional, aka no more pressure to mature" ?) is exactly what composes the metaphorical baseball bat i s
a111: Logged on 2016-11-07 17:27 mircea_popescu: of course, most of this "money" isn't much more substantial than the imaginary fortunes of adolescents cycling through their fantasy business career after fapping and pre falling asleep.
phf: mircea_popescu: you pay for ships before the ships sail out though, they are artisans, but in a world where nobody buys ships anymore, instead sail on patched up dinghies. so they loan you a ship, and you maybe pay it off from your returns
mircea_popescu: nobody bought ships. never.
mircea_popescu: ships were rented&insured.
mircea_popescu: by the way, you know the anglo-dutch war lulz ? how the respective nations (if we can call england that) procured their needed warships ?
phf: well, that's where the parallel breaks down, because renting software doesn't work in a straightforward way. hence all the secrecy with source code and nda's
mircea_popescu: why not ?
mircea_popescu: "programming computers" also doesn't work "in a straightforward way". man with wooden stick gets nowhere.
mircea_popescu: what's hiding behind that straightforward scotsman ?
phf: there's an explicit give and explicit return
mircea_popescu: (i know from experience, btw. i am probably the one here who has physically punished most ic. and yes i do mean with wooden sticks. and axes and machetes and so on.)
phf: perhaps loaning worked with lisp machines (i know APL machines could be loaned), could loan one, eventually you return it
mircea_popescu: phf it's clearly a family arrangement. what, they never read saussure ? what happened to the olde "give us a woman from your house" ?
phf: well, so it goes back to http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835969 their fault is for being born and staying a particular kind of american
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 14:39 phf: it's highly likely that their model though is fundamentally contrary to what is being considered, because it's also fundamentally contrary to what pretty much every american artisan does: when you find a rich account, you milk them for all they worth, while giving your work out to poor ones because "building business". in this case franz's failure is systematic, there's nothing else to say. but i believe that given the overall failure they never the le
mircea_popescu: cuz never thought about it.
mircea_popescu: but anyway, seems to me evident that the ~only way something like that could have worked was as monastic order, ie, harem, not as "company" ie "nuclear family" takeoff. "prove to us you can use this compiler for anything and you can move at franz hq and hang out with us / party with the hussies."
mircea_popescu: it is, after all, how washington dc scam peddles its sad oils, isn't it ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is. ( tho they also have satellite gulags in other parts of continent, and in various colonies )
phf: well, that last one applies more to me and my people (like asciilifeform), rather than franz
mircea_popescu: producing http://trilema.com/2017/in-case-you-were-wondering-where-all-the-worthless-nuland-drones-ended-up/
mircea_popescu: phf yes, but why.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 14:57 mircea_popescu: well, there's ways to try and fail, and there's ways to not even try at all (and still fail, of course). it seems to me (and maybe i misunderstand) that their efforts are of the latter.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835956 << i suspect that logic of poverty was at work (i.e. 'if we can't gross 500k , by whatever means, the landlord will take back the office and the programmers will go home' )
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 14:23 mircea_popescu: "oh, evidently our model doesn't work, so let's make it % rather than absolute". "yes fuckwit, because these aren't tools, and their use need no justification. they're just toys, for you to play with, oh don't use the scalpel, use the tweezer like thing, looks like this is more of a pull together than a cut apart thingee".
mircea_popescu: seems quite likely.
phf: which is exactly that. the reason why i'm failing to see the point of this line of conversation, is because their latter is universal, that's the pond they were born into and that's how they live. you can pick up literally any aspect of their lives and find a way in which it's not like "mp and mocky" interaction above
mircea_popescu: phf mocky has the exact same excuse.
mircea_popescu: yes, i'm aware, we're all alive, and that means periodically we evacuate. faecal matter, of all things. now tell me again why there's shit in the soup ?!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: usa is this enchanted land of fleadom where it is in fact possible to '7k for 20 yrs' and still have 0 serious capital, cuz weevils eat ~100% of it
mircea_popescu: oh, i know.
mircea_popescu: hence the leaves metaphor.
asciilifeform: so , lacking evidence to the contrary, i suspect that the man is ( like asciilifeform ) a pauper.
mircea_popescu: well no. unlike asciilifeform the man has seven sons he'll get bridegeld for.
asciilifeform: only if he makes his way to afganistan , lol
asciilifeform: ( in usa, 7 sons more typically are 7 people begging for beer money )
mircea_popescu: speaking of which, you'd be surprised what % of (male) ustards belabouring under the delusion they're "doms" served a tour or more. somehow they fail to see the problem. "but... you're retarded" "so ? smarts are not needed." "umm..."
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ping their dependopotami, let'em know the old dog broke loose from chain..
mircea_popescu: nah, it's usually "genuine" enough, in the sense soltero dood has a basement with some stuff in it, some hunks of wood "designed and produced by yours truly" and so on.
asciilifeform: 'chukcha is pilot, here is airplane from walrus tusks and dried deer shit'
mircea_popescu: anyway. sorta thing used to be a lot more of a problem back in ye olde days before democracy (ie, fifty or so years ago). "what do you mean in spite of all this equipment wasted on my stupid ass i still aren't all that cool ?!" used to be the jew boy lament.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform quite something like that. elliot is the hallowed imago for a reason, after all.
asciilifeform: 'where have you flown, chukcha?' 'every night i eat mushroom and fly to upper tundra'
mircea_popescu: anyway, it's very funny to me, all the shots in us army vehicles hand-personalized ("DEATh"!!!) and so on, barely visible under helmets, these very tough-ass kiddos.
mircea_popescu: somehow the point where some people are regularly handing them their ass with a handful of camel shit doesn't at all raise.
mircea_popescu: somehow the fact that they gotta go to a market exactly like the women, under heavy guard and always letting daddy know where they are doesn't AT ALL percolate through brain.
mircea_popescu: "how come these doods my age don't need to carry 50lbs of shit to be here?"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: helmet, nazi goggles very convenient, can pass off beer buddy's photo as own
mircea_popescu: yeah but i mean... of course, bimbos interchangeable, that's the point of the repeater high heels.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/07/gun-rights-activist-that-happens-to-be-from-russia-arrested-in-us-under-foreign-agents-registration-act/ << Qntra - Gun Rights Activist That Happens To Be From Russia Arrested In US Under "Foreign Agents Registration Act"
mircea_popescu: lmao teh police state getting tough on spies ?
mircea_popescu: doctors' trial when!
BingoBoingo: Maybe September?
mircea_popescu: i so look forward to this.
BingoBoingo: I can't wait for the congress critter that start getting prosecuted as British and German agents by the Trumpreich
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: thus far d00d seems unable to enthrone a nonpantsuit head prosecutor..
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835840 << which would be the necessary end result of inept arrangements, a roomfull of people who think you're an idiot (or in other words, passively selecting for only those for whom your formula works out to relative epsilon necessarily selects for people to whom you're a pest and no more).
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 12:46 phf: are you talking in the context of tmsr, or your commercial work? i had both of them bought at some point, back in my common lisp consulting days it was a no brainer, the cost was always a small fraction of the contract, but the technical advantage immense. but then i don't have the source code for many things that i make my food with
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo no chinese ?
mircea_popescu: could get ~whole senate impeached just about now.
BingoBoingo: Trump is set to get a better Senate sworn in after this mid term, it's like fishing. Sometimes you have to keep feeding slack and let the scalebeast wear itself out lest the line break
mircea_popescu: oyu got something there.
BingoBoingo: I mean in a couple months he will have a majority on the Supreme Court. Through at least January all he has to do is abide, keep baiting, and let the pantsuits keep exhausting themselves with runs into insanity
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1836056 << i also don't have means of reproducing the majority of physical objects i use, including the machine my tools run on. i have to ask is that a hypothetical roomfull or we're talking #trilema specifically?
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 16:00 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835840 << which would be the necessary end result of inept arrangements, a roomfull of people who think you're an idiot (or in other words, passively selecting for only those for whom your formula works out to relative epsilon necessarily selects for people to whom you're a pest and no more).
BingoBoingo: Mocky: Start thinking of quality of life stuff you want investigated for your visit to Uruguay since it appears you will be visiting with an eye towards immigrating.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835844 << this immediately sent me thinking about http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/cultura-vizualas.jpg which in turn led me to the coco chanel discussion. i expect the designer of the future comes up with a way to include antena in clothing, have whole thing powered by puttplug/anal hook.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 12:55 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835819 << not for sw relay. sw antenna ideally is a 20meter-hypotenuse triangle. in the woods. what in the woods is hot enuff to run a teg ? ( not considering strontium90 barrels here, but compact and inexpensive items. ) afaik pv panel is the only pill.
mircea_popescu: that'd be warm enough.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: unfortunately wont work for sw
mircea_popescu: phf i was talking about the "collected people who use lisp" as a roomful there. and i very much doubt you can't reproduce anything you effectually use. of course, couldn't vs wouldn't distinction.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform why not!
mircea_popescu: women wore complex clothes before...
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: need at least 20M long antenna, and at least 1M away from ground, and made of something reasonably conductive and not friable (i.e. not meat)
mircea_popescu: hanbot don't these sound like some epic hats ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: would work for short-range (line of sight) radio tho, 500MHz+
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in re sw, there was some work in '70s re using ~trees~ as antennae, but afaik went nowhere (at least publicly)
mircea_popescu: seems kite's tail still the most practical, but anyway.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835846 << the sadness of this coming down to gui...
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 12:55 phf: well lispworks has capi, that doesn't have an non-proprietary equivalent, so if your work requires any kind of gui, you're stuck with some very dodgy solutions (in the early days i even used emacs/slime as a gui backed by ccl)
mircea_popescu: aluminum siding all the way.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: kite no good for stationary repeater. state of the art is prolly item hanging from tall branch.
mircea_popescu: how's tricks ben_vulpes
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834927 << i'd not distribute anything but trb patches to allcomers ~already~; if i made a useful thing i'd trivially share the source for it with l1 and rely on y'alls judgement as to whom to further share it with but i wouldn't concern myself with preventing leaks-to-kloinkers. beyond that, i share certain specific source with a subset of my own l1 and no further, with a
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 15:44 mircea_popescu: thoughts plox! (and i specifically want everyone to say at least an ack, so let's page asciilifeform ave1 ben_vulpes BingoBoingo danielpbarron diana_coman hanbot lobbes mod6 phf spyked trinque )
ben_vulpes: very explicit understanding between the men involved that we're far better off not sharing further than doing so.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: looking up!
asciilifeform: oh hey hey hey lbj
phf: mircea_popescu: oh oh i get the point
ben_vulpes: not to derail, but i've learned quite a bit about what neurofolk call the "default mode network" over the past two weeks
mircea_popescu: phf there's a strong undertone of "these people are trading the grains for the chaffs" throughout.
hanbot: <mircea_popescu> hanbot don't these sound like some epic hats ? << lol, that they do. the question is, wtf is a "puttplug"?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes do tell ?
mircea_popescu: ahahaha. buttplug.
mircea_popescu: i had the wrong unicode page selected.
mircea_popescu: teh puttplug goes in teh unicorne bage.
ben_vulpes: the gist i get is that there's several physical regions that see high bloodflow when the mind is in an idle state that are correlated with "ruminantive"/"obsessive" thinking that are grouped by experts as "the default mode network"
a111: Logged on 2017-04-07 18:24 mircea_popescu: no, let's also de-equivocate think. there's two kinds of think, one's a forge/reflow/examination of trees resulting in analytical consumption of inputs with actionable outputs guaranteed ; the other is a neurotic behaviour perhaps best described as spinning, whereby specific emotional triggers / detriggers are visited in succession. the prussian model was never concerned with the former in any sense, but merely aimed to elimi
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: aha, precisely!
mircea_popescu: yes, de-training girl from spinning behaviour essential component of housebroken woman.
mircea_popescu: (evolutionarily, if anyone's curious, it's a key component of how they "fall in love", because there's need for some ample shutdown of higher cognitive function for the animal to permit such gross usage as childbearing entails.)
ben_vulpes: there's a megatonne of dross and snake oil to sift through, but another flake ive found is that the same mechanisms that one uses to process and put behind scary/traumatic/painful events can become the dominant mode of behavior if the individual's subjected to pain/abuse/shit-ass situations for long enough
mircea_popescu: this seems correct.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's observations in pet terrarium confirms
mircea_popescu: this isn't even gendered in any sense. thousand mile stare etc.
ben_vulpes: aha, shellshock
ben_vulpes: empirically, there are classes of chemicals that a) shut down the aforementioned dmn entirely for a short period and b) for reasons unexplained this dialing-down of the dmn can endure beyond the presence of these chemicals in the system (although perhaps not other chemicals that are produced in response, nobody knows anything beyond this point)
mircea_popescu doesn't believe in pill therapy.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: in olden times 'electroshock' 'worked' same way
mircea_popescu: it is perhaps arguable that major function of beating is in this vein.
ben_vulpes: the hot items are ketamine and psilocybin.
mircea_popescu: releases endorphins and other shutupins.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: last i knew, ketamine was usg.dod state of art
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: i can see how beatings could kick the brain into a new regime
asciilifeform: was being considered as component in field med kit
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes if you'rte going to use veterinarian's anesthetic, might as well go the whole way and fuck veals, no ?
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: har har har
mircea_popescu: people got speech. supposedly it does something./
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they used something like 1/10 of the anaesthetic dose ( thing is fiendishly difficult, incidentally, to dose )
mircea_popescu: just sayin', why are you lot laughing at me for baseball-batting my terminals and then go about attempting the ~same ?
ben_vulpes: .05 perhaps, notes are across the room. delivered over an hour. asciilifeform doses are well calibrated at this point.
Mocky: BingoBoingo, yeah I've been thinking. Spent better half of last year travelling southern usa and mostly finding places I would *not* want to live until landing in Austin, which I quite liked. But then later snapped back to east coast. I've developed a pretty good sense of my (pretty minimal) quality of life needs recently.
mircea_popescu: Mocky funny, my favourite place in texas (and usa, mostly) was san antonio
mircea_popescu: everyone from texas prefers austin. it's a wonder to behold.
Mocky: the hiking there is mind blowing
asciilifeform: iirc trinque lives ( or at one time lived? ) there
mircea_popescu: hahaha. until cr, you've not seen hiking.
Mocky: more trails within city limits than you could get in some states
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: incidentally cr seems ~ideal for forest antennae placements.
ben_vulpes likely doomed to relocate to austin within the year
Mocky: i have a nephew who tried to get me to cr last summer and I agreed, but then he backed out. he was raving about the place
mircea_popescu: as close to perfect as i've to date found.
ben_vulpes: anyways early results are coffee made for instead of by me, exercise taken under own steam, complete cessation of wandering into room and forgetting original cause ("i've tried to brush my teeth six times today"), and general lifting of tenor around the domus. much habit-building to do now.
mircea_popescu: does she work anything ?
ben_vulpes: not atm, but mebbe down the road. would have to pay pretty damn well to offset costs of childcare and producing food for the family at home is the first reason to not.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835852 << this seems rather a poisoned advantage, much in the vein of the "order in clown's mouth" easement. yes, i suppose not getting out of your car is in some senses "easier", but not something i'd use.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 12:59 phf: for example in naggum's "history of time" he talks about having a package tz with symbols for all the timezones, and if you access say tz:est or whatever, the timezone is transparently loaded. can only be done in allegro
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes consider it'd alleviate the need for ketamine.
mircea_popescu: it's not generally possible for intelligent human to stay healthy, let alone happy, without some sort of activity in the mix.
ben_vulpes: i entirely agree.
ben_vulpes: childrearing can be a mindnumbing activity.
mircea_popescu: try to not reconstruct the insanity that drove the (legitimate) previous wave "feminism", you know ? it's 2018 after all, no further need of kathleen turner going slowly insane in the house of rose.
BingoBoingo: Mocky: Anyways you benefit from not being tied to the datacenter. You have more geographic options than explored here, you can even look outside the big city to Atlantida and Piriapolis http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2018/06/01/the-real-estate-situation-in-montevideo-part-one/
ben_vulpes: she gardens, we're building a fence and working on the house.
mircea_popescu: she'd be better off pole dancing at the local strip club, than gardening.
mircea_popescu: sellign real estate, baking home cookies for faire sale, anything that's a real activity, as opposed to gardening. kids, plants, whatever.
ben_vulpes: human interaction outside of house is teh next item hue
ben_vulpes: anyways thanks for the input
mircea_popescu: "real activity". what i mean is that activities can be classified in resistence-of-medium types, when one interacts with objects, and catcalls types, where one interacts with people. just like stock trader would immensely benefit from taking time to do some whittling, just so alma de casa would immensely benefit from taking some time to do paid escort work.
mircea_popescu: though generally it seems waitressing is the cheap quick and accessible substitute.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835866 << his thinking of standard interpretations shifted significantly past year or so, under ada influence.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 13:07 phf: asciilifeform: please show me where "permits no such horrors"
asciilifeform: meeting something reasonably close to a sane standard is educative, whatcanisay.
mircea_popescu: before tmsr-ghost-of-gost-cl, a full enumeration of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835880 is prolly in order.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 13:41 phf: asciilifeform: oh yeah, i get it, the approach requires a GOST cpu with a GOST bus etc. etc. right now the situation is mildly depressing (though perhaps that's not the right word), even Ada standard turned out to be dodgy (very precisely specifies some shitty solutions)
mircea_popescu: because i fear he's right.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i've little doubt that he's right; hence http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835943
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 14:16 asciilifeform: ave1: that'll be the gold medalist, as it will run on ice40 , i.e. 'tmsr cpu'.
mircea_popescu: (i meant especially re the "Ada standard turned out to be dodgy (very precisely specifies some shitty solutions)" art.
asciilifeform: to date i've rejected all items requiring secondarystackism; that's currently it.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 13:45 phf: as far as ada is concerned, the tmsr ada is a subset of standard, that only exists in your head, and can be somewhat inferred from ffa. that's no standard
mircea_popescu: the counterpoint to all these issues being that ~not everything can be standardized~.
mircea_popescu: which is why there's no standard worm.
asciilifeform: for thread completeness i must add that there are items in the standard (i.e. 'tasks') that i do not use in ffa, but intend to make use of in future ( i.e. trbi ) , and may be let live.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835889 << yes, actually. not for the direct so much, but because we'll understand jack shit unless we talk about things.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 13:46 phf: or is tmsr ada whatever ave1 put into his musl build, which is, worse, a political situation. diana_coman can argue for her ffi stuff to be included, should i be arguing for my get/put stuff to be included?
asciilifeform: i/o in particular is intimately machine-specific and cannot be 'language-standardized' unless you're perma-marrying unix or the like.
mircea_popescu: can be standardized, "broken machines to receive software crutches that meet the standard".
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: consider for instance commandline args, the concept is meaningless on embedded chip with no commandline/shell
mircea_popescu: so target embedded doesn't pull in that portion.
asciilifeform: ditto filesystemism, is meaningless on apparatus with no disk
asciilifeform: right, these belong as annexes .
asciilifeform: ( separation of language-standard and annexes is a basic component of sanity )
mircea_popescu: can teach same baby any language, it'll ~work ~same.
asciilifeform: funnily enuff ( esp in light of mircea_popescu's excursions into sapirwhorfism ) this may not be true
mircea_popescu: well, evidently you won't get a software disk out of a diskless system.
mircea_popescu: just because "my language is standard"
mircea_popescu: but no, language-as-coprocessor does not imply any genetic linkage.
asciilifeform: point was that certain language features make for effectively smarter ( or dumber ) thinker.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835900 << this is true, but open and perhaps resolvable problem.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 13:53 phf: interfaces.c is not a libc concern, it's an ffi. the situation is that C can't be linked to an Ada, even if the C part has _no libc_ in it
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and present disk or ram or w/e make for faster eventual program. but anyways.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: was speaking of basic semantics, rather than i/o and storage ( consider , good chunk of the reason ada wins is that it not merely enforces constraints, but forces operator to think and plan, rather than http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-21#1379603 -shit into his pants )
a111: Logged on 2016-01-21 13:29 asciilifeform: 'if i make it what i think is the right size, it crashes!111'
asciilifeform: e.g. it is not permitted to index array by a variable that cannot be shown to be ranged within the known ( and it must be known ) size of the array; if you want compiler to permit you the use of a pointer, gotta demonstrate that it cannot outlive its scope; and so forth ( iirc plentifully summarized in l0gz )
asciilifeform: in re: constrained ada subsets, the traditional standard actually contains annexes that specify 'profiles', e.g. https://archive.fo/4xUvl , that consist of sets of prohibitions . but currently very primitive, afaik none contain substantial ~substitutions~ for mainline functionality.
asciilifeform: ( there was not an existing 'profile' corresponding to the degree of 'fascism' asciilifeform wanted , hence the bulk of http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch10_karatsuba/tree/ffa/libffa/restrict.adc item )
Mocky: BingoBoingo, I've just read through your real estate posts, what was your best source of info re: rentals, was it agencies?
mircea_popescu: yeah ; anyway, seems promising enough line.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 14:06 phf: i took a different approach, i wrote _to ada standard_ with the idea that each interface can be substituted with a custom system specific replacement. for example my character_io is a new_line aware replacement of the original, that relies on ada.sequential_io. now if i wanted to retarget to small machine, i'd write a custom sequential_io that uses machine specific calls for byte read/write
mircea_popescu: lol i see the log approves.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835931 << could something like http://trilema.com/2018/euloras-communication-protocol-restated/#selection-141.0-141.150 rescue one from the problems of "variable length string" ?
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 14:09 asciilifeform: phf: observe however that it is impossible to make use of your approach re cmdline args. the standard unambiguously mandates variably-lenghted strings ( i.e. dualstackism ) for that.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ada gives you ~this~ type of string 'for free' ( all ada strings contain their length )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the dualstack thing comes into play when you start to demand that a function ~return~ a string of length not known in advance.
mircea_popescu: so if the init were made so as to pass cmd line args as THAT, ie, proiper string, ie 3 part string, ie, x + y + z bytes, then...
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that's exactly what i did.
asciilifeform: ( http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch10_karatsuba/tree/ffa/ffacalc/cmdline.ads + http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch10_karatsuba/tree/ffa/ffacalc/cmdline.adb for the curious )
mircea_popescu: and so what's the problem ?
asciilifeform: sanity-constrained wrapper around the linux c-ism.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: problem , if one want to call it one, is that the standard explicitly gives a knob for getting cmdline params, and that knob demands indeterminately-long strings (i.e. built on dualstackism) to work.
mircea_popescu: but the model here discussed DOES permit very long strings.
asciilifeform: in order to ~return~ such a string, a place other than the stack is required to store it. ( to grasp this, gotta visualize stack frame. )
asciilifeform: returning strings of fixed apriori lenght, on other hand, does not.
mircea_popescu: for the logs : 1st byte is, byte length of 2nd segment. 2nd segment is, byte length of 3rd segment. 3rd segment is payload. so "hola" is 14hola and 0xFF FF FF encodes for a 2.00352993e+19728 byte long string.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform why place other than stack ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: because stack frame is of fixed size in advance .
asciilifeform: draw this on paper, it will make sense.
mircea_popescu: no, i understand that part. what i don't understand is why is it a problem.
mircea_popescu: if program includes this sort of thing, define stack as max mem.
asciilifeform: it only becomes a problem if one insists on returning items of unknown apriori size.
mircea_popescu: no, because machine memory is alwayus the limit. all compiler has to do is simply say the (correct) "sorry, i can;t help you here", and allocate all available memory for stack.
mircea_popescu: if you don't like that behaviour, don't use that thing which necessitates it.
asciilifeform: https://docs.adacore.com/gnat_ugx-docs/html/gnat_ugx/gnat_ugx/the_stacks.html#the-secondary-stack << the horse's mouth, re details.
mircea_popescu: yes, but the problem is that they're trying to help idiots in spite of themselves. which...
Mocky: but stack frames are allocated *before* so can' be arbitrary size
mircea_popescu: Mocky before what ? before the machine exists ?
asciilifeform: Mocky: it is of course possible to do what mircea_popescu describes, the gnat folx did it by making use of heap. however i banned the heap. because i wish to be able to reason apriori re memory usage.
mircea_popescu: i dunno that this is equal to using a heap
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that's what a heap ~is~, a place which lets you pretend to be able to store sequences of objects of unknown-apriori lengths.
asciilifeform: in actual practice turns out , pretty terrible thing.
asciilifeform: trb's footprint problems are 100% on account of heapism.
mircea_popescu: ok, let me rephrase : if program includes "long strings" then compiler turns stack into heap.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this more or less exactly describes gnat's implementation of 'secondary stack' (somewhat misnomer)
asciilifeform: i banned it in my proggy. because i don't like what it leads to.
mircea_popescu: well yeah but then you must not permit long strings.
asciilifeform: strings of any length you want ~defined apriori~ work under my constraint.
asciilifeform: ( so long as the thing gets enuff stack segment on warmup , if it does not, bombs immediately )
mircea_popescu: i meant "long" in the cmdline sense.
asciilifeform: observe http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch4_ffacalc#L97 mechanism, i fix a max length of param apriori, and routine will explicitly and pompously end the world if luser insists on trying to stuff it further.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch4_ffacalc#L55 << copies the unix turd into the fixed space, if fits, if not, above.
mircea_popescu: i suspect a (large) part of the problem is the temptation to stuff ad-hoc scripting langs in the cmd line ;
mircea_popescu: i've been thinking a lot about this since discussions re how mining bot should be configured in eulora.
asciilifeform: btw no known unix permits an 'infinite' cmdline.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it';s a recurring problem though, recall the "url length hacks" endemic throughout web age ?
asciilifeform: folx gotta know measure.
asciilifeform: url has no biznis weighing a megabyte.
mircea_popescu: in fact, a lot of the utility of pipe (and with it, a lot of the utility of unix altogether) comes from it being, fundamentally, a loosely specified scripting lang.
asciilifeform: aha, there is no limit to pipe 'length', it specifies a flow, rather than a datum.
mircea_popescu: but i suspect it's in the vein of "a lot of the utility of sledgehammer comes from there being all these abandoned warehouses to loot" "well... how about you organised things better, then no sledgehammers"
mircea_popescu: diana_coman neither of those are it, i guess ima embark on a re-read expedition, it's discussed somewhere 2015ish pretty sure
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, hm, discussed as in #eulora or #trilema?
mircea_popescu: i thought on blog tbh.
mircea_popescu: it all gets fuzzy after a while ;/
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: conceivably not all works call for the ffa degree of fascism, where asciilifeform insists on being able to say exactly how many bytes are required after a O(1) look at the inputs, and to say exactly in what order they will be accessed etc
mircea_popescu: this rapidly escalates into a "what does it mean to program".
asciilifeform: no different from 'what does it mean to work on lathe' . if aluminum -- means one thing, if machining pyrophorics (e.g. plutonium) -- very other.
mircea_popescu: this is true
mircea_popescu: anyway, i shall bbl!
asciilifeform: give my regards to the hermit crabs.
BingoBoingo: <Mocky> BingoBoingo, I've just read through your real estate posts, what was your best source of info re: rentals, was it agencies? << The best big picture survey is on "Mercado Libre" From there you ask and poke
BingoBoingo: Mocky: https://www.mercadolibre.com.uy/inmuebles/ is where you start. If you are looking to buy, start discussions at half their ask...
Mocky: ok, thanks
BingoBoingo: Prado's cool but far from everything, otherwise to get low pichi (bum) density the area from Parque Rodo and playa Ramirez all the way through Carrasco (maybe skip Malvin) is a good place to start.
BingoBoingo: There's still expat focused material tryping to pump up property prices in La Blanqueda, Malvin Norte and other shitholes that are an unpleasant walk from the water.
BingoBoingo: Tres Cruces is a fun place to go to chat cute girls but... it the only barrio with traffic issues, far from the water, and the place I most frequently run into dyed hair activist sorts (the national bus terminal seems to be irresistable bait for the fifth column)
BingoBoingo: The way healthcare works here however is vastly improved over the US
Mocky: really? i guess I shouldn't be surprised
BingoBoingo: The way it works here is three tiers: public (free and shitty), Mutualistas (Pick one of several good options for low waits, runs 4300 pesos a month), Private (reimplementation of US tardation)
BingoBoingo: And this is Latin America so any sort of insurance can always be supplemented with cash and carry
BingoBoingo: Plenty of Venezolanas working on getting their professional licenses here trained in the intense soviet tradition
BingoBoingo: Carrasco International Airport is also far less fucked up than the options in Buenos Aires
BingoBoingo: Grocery shopping here is also a trip, Peanut butter runs about 5 USD for a tiny jar, but... Entrecot, God's own cut of beef runs about 10 USD a kilo
BingoBoingo: Half a kilo of dulce de leche, the good stuff runs less than 3 USD for a half kilo
ben_vulpes: how much is lettuce?
BingoBoingo: Cheap, but varies a lot
asciilifeform pictures BingoBoingo eating dulce de leche in the style asciilifeform's father ate it in su army -- puncture with bayonet and drink, drink, in 'trumpeter's pose' , all 500g at a time
BingoBoingo: lol, not fluid enough to drink. That would likely take days
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: trick is to warm it up 1st.
BingoBoingo: I've been splitting bread rolls with a utility knife and making dulce de leche, cream cheese, and jelly sandwiches
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in human lulz, http://logs.bvulpes.com/pizarro?d=2018-7-18#402166
mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2018-07-18 19:48 asciilifeform: lobbes, shinohai : it seems unfortunate that text forum does not give equivalent of the duel . the ancients invented dueling precisely for your case, you're ideal candidates.
asciilifeform: ty ben_vulpes
Mocky: BingoBoingo, what are pharmacies like there, do you know? like mexico: basically walk in and ask for what you need, or more sticklers for note from doc?
mircea_popescu: everywhere non-pantsuit is sane.
mircea_popescu: kinda why we advise the zeks to fucking leave.
asciilifeform went into several pharmacies in BingoBoingostan, saw ~100% herbal/snakeoil crapolas. possibly they keep the real pharma behind counter.
mircea_popescu: i just bought 1% topical novocaine for the asking.
Mocky: last year doc referred me to specialist for one specific issue. specialist ordered 2 dozen labs, bone density scan, ultrasound, said come back in 2 weeks. came back, said looks all good but want another test. went to lab, blood draw chick whips out 7 vials for blood collection. I said, let me see what labs were ordered, was 4 dozen more!
Mocky: i left and never went back. i should have know by how nice the place was. too nice.
mircea_popescu: the cult of safety is the enemy of safety. like all other inca products.
ben_vulpes: pathological fear of firearms doth not translate to safe firearm use
ben_vulpes: rip drive by shooting range
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: sufficiently cowardly idjit can shoot himself with brick.
mircea_popescu: if this were true, korea'd have won some war at some point in its history.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: afaik korea if ever existed as nation, it was in 1300s. (today there's the usg colony and the open air injun reservation)
mircea_popescu: well ok, but shooting only was discovered after that.
asciilifeform: funnily enuff i associate korea with art of medieval gunnery -- motherland of the infamous 'leather cannon', as deadly to artillerist as to enemy
asciilifeform: ( was not in reality wholly of leather, but wood reinforced with same )
mircea_popescu: problem with wood is that it's too friable. they basically made metal from parts.
asciilifeform: aha, same trick as ferrocement
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1836280 << the reason, btw, is that us "peanut" butter is ~90% margerine.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 19:25 BingoBoingo: Grocery shopping here is also a trip, Peanut butter runs about 5 USD for a tiny jar, but... Entrecot, God's own cut of beef runs about 10 USD a kilo
asciilifeform: periodically, uppity folx who need to bake something that shoots, in a hurry (e.g. filipino rebels ) rediscover the korean trick.
mircea_popescu: what they charge is what genuine article costs.
asciilifeform: i saw in museum an example, old iron pipe rightly wrapped in leather.
asciilifeform: ( naturally the leather eventually gives , and frags go in the shooter's face. but until then , you get a coupla shots, can be enuff )
BingoBoingo: * asciilifeform went into several pharmacies in BingoBoingostan, saw ~100% herbal/snakeoil crapolas. possibly they keep the real pharma behind counter. << They carry real stuff, but you have to ask. Barrier is "know the name of what you want"
Mocky: man, these flights are a hoot. looks like getting below $1900 requires 2 to 3 long layovers. cheapest one i see $1153 9 hours in JFK, 16hrs Bogota
Mocky: i need to find one with 23hrs in cancun and 23 hours in jamaica, lol
mircea_popescu: kinda how i fly. used to have old world all mapped out, "and here';s the schnitzel place we stop for in frankfurt, and here's the,..."
BingoBoingo: Mocky: Just avoid the American Airlines flight direct from Miami, its frequently delayed or cancelled
Mocky: oh that sux, i'd totally do a layover in miami
BingoBoingo: You can take Copa and do a layover in Panama City
Mocky: copa's 2700 or more for any time in august, from what I can see
mircea_popescu: that's pretty insane.
asciilifeform: lol Mocky where are you flying from..? alaska ?!
asciilifeform got round trip from dc and 5d hotel for <1900 in apr
asciilifeform: copa, through panama as it always goes
mircea_popescu: possibly they're running an "oh, vacation" scam ?
asciilifeform: ( and asciilifeform's only complaint was the plane that stood on runway for 20 extra minutes because some orc derp couldn't fit his ~box of cakes~ into overhead bin )
asciilifeform: admittedly the <1900 gets 'cattle car class'.
asciilifeform: ( and nominal wait in panama was only 1h )
Mocky: asciilifeform, raleigh durham international
asciilifeform: then nfi. plane ticket is one of those things that steadily climbs in cost as the printing press churns.
Mocky: BingoBoingo, is Prado where you are?
asciilifeform: Mocky: he's in montevideo
Mocky: talking neighborhoods
BingoBoingo: Mocky: I am in Pocitos near the datacenter.
BingoBoingo: Prado's further to the west
Mocky: ok, yeah I see it
BingoBoingo: Anyways, the locals rarely travel within the city
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/07/ballot-measure-to-split-california-blocked-by-california-court/ << Qntra - Ballot Measure To Split California Blocked By California Court