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← 2018-02-05 | 2018-02-07 → ↓
mircea_popescu: so then, 7150 * 6 / 52 / 40 * 2 = 41.25 final cost, per week. includes 1U of space, 302GB of weekly upload / 3TB download (as per 20 × 3600 × 24 × 7 ÷ 40) and lessee re wattage,
mircea_popescu: well apparently this was never published. yo BingoBoingo WHY is your contract that you signed not online ? where's the wattage ? etc.
trinque hasn't a preference for weekly, other than manages the bitcoin:fiat interface volatility better, which iirc was the rationale
trinque: was just reading from his blog's weekly numbers
mircea_popescu: trinque i dunno what that post was about, but ima strike it from teh record.
trinque: rate's nb at all
mircea_popescu: anyway, the committment to transparency and in general predictability as shown above is there.
mircea_popescu: the "pay twice the cost but it buys you insurance from "what if the rack doesn't fill" as well as not having to do the legwork" principle seems reasonably fair to me ; it may alter in the future, but for fucking cause. like the prices work in #eulora.
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-06#1781846 <- my only slight dislike of the amd fx is precisely higher power consumption & warming up; while fx 8350s is indeed not that bad on this account, it still consumes more than opteron 6376 afaik
a111: Logged on 2018-02-06 01:57 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo phf trinque diana_coman so i'm thinking of basically getting a dozen amd fx-8350s (because just 125w compared to say fx-9590s 220) racked in u2 mbs (say maybe ASRock 970M PRO3 ? i thinkl that fits in 2u neh ?) with 64 gb ram each and a coupla ssds ? any complaints/suggestions ?
mircea_popescu: diana_coman the power diff is only about 10W. the 6376 does have 16 cores, but then again 8350 is 4GHz vs 3ish...
mircea_popescu: now, of course, the 6376 could be piled 4 to the motherboard. but i tell you i don't see you'd want it, considering how much it eats.
diana_coman: well yes, hence "slight dislike" not a deal breaker or anything major; fwiw at this moment I'd say Eulora can certainly live on either
mircea_popescu: seems to me a bad deal to trade 4ghz down to 3 in exchange for 16 cores instead of 8. contrary to all the hubbub, "multithreading" isn't nearly that working in practice.
mircea_popescu: this, of course, is where "teh experts" could contribute, if they weren't busy taking a shit right exactly when they're needed. but... such is lyf.
diana_coman: well, at the end of the day it depends on what software exactly one runs on that computer, not an overall generic answer
mircea_popescu: kinda intended to be a sort of generic offering ; people with specific needs still can ship their gear over.
mircea_popescu: take something like, i dunno, epyc-7351 say. costs 7x, has 4x the cores, 4.5x the ram speed, 4.5x the l2/3 cache and 50% the power. basically i'm getting less than twice as much processor per watt, if i pay 7x the money. meh.
mircea_popescu: i'd rather take another rack.
mircea_popescu: not to mention the item is an atrocity cobbled together out of a dozen or so actual chips, and all sorts of those discussions.
diana_coman: sorry, crap connection this morning, argh
diana_coman: I can see the argument as a generic offering , yes; in all fairness it's not like we have a load of properly-speaking multi-threaded software to run
mircea_popescu: ~theoretically~ teh linux kernel is multithreaded ; in practice... well, more or less. 32 core certainly does not support 4x the load of 8 core cpus, at least in my (very limited) experience.
diana_coman: oh yes, theoretically all sorts; by "properly-speaking" I meant precisely NOT theoretical
mircea_popescu: now then, considering that config : the fx-8350 is ~120 bux ; the ASRock 970M PRO3 is like $50 ; 4 x 16GB ddr3-1866 ram chips (say teh crucial ct16g3r186dm) come to about 700 dollars. drives should be about $100 to 150 per. i'm thinking should prolly actually include 2 and 4 disk setups, so taking an average of 3 that's about $1300 per box, which is not bad at all, really.
diana_coman: sounds quite reasonable to me
a111: Logged on 2018-02-06 01:31 BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: If the paper declaring it an import with a value isn't there at least another 50% on top of the 22% VAT. Looking at the advertisements here https://listado.mercadolibre.com.uy/samsung-ssd#D[A:samsung ssd] it appears there is a brisk business of people doing the suitcase thing.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-06#1781806 << i missed this. say what ? << Is re: Fedexing things of value for the local customs folks to decide are shady unlabeled "internet purchases", apparently that is their term of art.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-06 01:31 BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: If the paper declaring it an import with a value isn't there at least another 50% on top of the 22% VAT. Looking at the advertisements here https://listado.mercadolibre.com.uy/samsung-ssd#D[A:samsung ssd] it appears there is a brisk business of people doing the suitcase thing.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo phf trinque diana_coman so i'm thinking of basically getting a dozen amd fx-8350s (because just 125w compared to say fx-9590s 220) racked in u2 mbs (say maybe ASRock 970M PRO3 ? i thinkl that fits in 2u neh ?) with 64 gb ram each and a coupla ssds ? any complaints/suggestions ? << Sounds a hell of a lot beefier than the Qntra server.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo incidentally, this rack is 19 inch or 23 inch ? << 19 inch
BingoBoingo: <ben_vulpes> BingoBoingo: why are you not rolling VAT into this pricing scheme? << I did not in that draft under the presumption taxes are another salary.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo does the dc provide the racking boxes at least ? or does sheer metal have to be carried from overseas also ? << Inquiry sent, with a timeline (i.e. can be had next week)
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> well apparently this was never published. yo BingoBoingo WHY is your contract that you signed not online ? where's the wattage ? etc. << Will deturd and publish today
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> incidentally, if trinque , phf , et al , grasp mircea_popescu's pov, and think ' asciilifeform is idjit ' , invited to explain to asciilifeform . << The problem of where to post was the easy part of the ask. Especially in light of the growing napkin doodle problem http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-03#1780678
a111: Logged on 2018-02-03 01:36 mircea_popescu: well the whole thing is one huge napkin doodle shared over the chan as it stands
mircea_popescu: o hey there.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo aite on the power and rack cages scores. any tips you want to share with phf ? how's teh suitcase ppls do it ?
mircea_popescu: intel thinking at the time being is, "have the paperwork for mbs and chips in slot 1 ; paperwork for disks in slot 2 ; for ram in slot 3. then if asked for papers, present slot 1, offer to pay, whine and ask for discounts, etc. if that dun pass, add slot 2, whine more insistently."
mircea_popescu sees no problem whatsoever in paying 0.22 * 12 * 120+50 = 366.8 vat if it gets the pile across.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo aite on the power and rack cages scores. any tips you want to share with phf ? how's teh suitcase ppls do it ? << They pad things as appropriate, but they discard the original packaging. Also it is important to grab a customs form, they are on the wall on the right once you exit the duty free store zone, on the opposite side of the space is the baggage claim.
mircea_popescu: you gonna be there to pick him up when he lands yes ?
BingoBoingo: From there the actual customs x-ray station and the lines for said station is around a U shaped bend. Usually they apathetically wave people through, the more foreign appearing without being India/Chinese generally the less interest they have.
mircea_popescu: so, to give some guidance here!
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> you gonna be there to pick him up when he lands yes ? << I can be if he asks. From there the plan is proceed to the cowork and unpack the equipment.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo : the logic is, ima want 5 of the dozen ; the rest could each at least in principle support 100 "shared" sorta sites each, at $20 a month or whatever you end up charging. that's, if you manage to fill up the lot, $14`000 per month in revenue.
mircea_popescu: then there's 5 * 41.25 * 7 ~= 1500 from racking the five. if you get say another five items to rack from other folk, that's 3k.
mircea_popescu: so ~in principle~, you can end up very profitable. what's needed is a good system for shared hosting, and hounding the low end forums/whatever.
mircea_popescu: this make sense to you ?
BingoBoingo: This makes an incredible amount of sense.
mircea_popescu: aite. you can certainly eat even out of a half-filled rack, so. it's a biz.
deedbot: http://www.dianacoman.com/2018/02/06/its-only-words-and-assumptions-and-priorities-and-ouch/ << Ossasepia - Its only words and assumptions; and priorities; and ouch!
mircea_popescu: now, as to everyone else : today's the 6th. the plan is to continue discussing the spec given above, for improvements/refinements/whatever until the 8th ; at which point we start ordering. there's about 15k fiats worth of gear being contemplated, and i'm more than willing to spread it around a few people who want some cheap coins.
mircea_popescu: so, let me know if you're interested in buying some newegg/amazon/whatever for this, danielpbarron pete_dushenski whosoever else.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo for clerical record : the per-month amortisation value of a $1300 box is 1300/12 (ie, we deem them obsolete in one year) ; consequently the retail monthly cost of a $1300 box is 1300/12*2 = 216.666666667 ; or the weekly exactly 50.
mircea_popescu: so your cost basis per shared host would be like $100 weekly, nothing short of a license to print dough.
BingoBoingo: Thank you for the numbers and the opportunity.
mircea_popescu: hey, if we pull this off i'll be just as happy as you.
mircea_popescu: and, to be sure, if you do manage to fill it, and if it does make good dough, i'll be just as happy for you to get a nice villa and import your own german car and diddle all the uruguayan hos you can find. so...
mircea_popescu: make 2018 the year bb becomes rich.
BingoBoingo: Deturding the contract now. Re: the weekly number the 7150 included two one time setup charges so (900+250)*1.22=1403 of the 7150 sum sent is not going to be recurring. Months 2 through 23 of the contract are 2834.06 each after VAT.
BingoBoingo returns to formating tables in plaintext in the anexes
mircea_popescu: check it out trinque even better than originally thought. i forgot about the setup fees.
BingoBoingo: Also after contract is deturded, sometime today a post reflecting on dos meses.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-06#1782057 << the principal difference being that other than holding down a high responsibility tech job with a significant on-call component, ~the woman~ is also raising a child. with the flu and everything. yet somehow her shit is still dribbling out on thursdays, today as nine weeks ago.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-06 13:27 deedbot: http://www.dianacoman.com/2018/02/06/its-only-words-and-assumptions-and-priorities-and-ouch/ << Ossasepia - Its only words and assumptions; and priorities; and ouch!
mircea_popescu: juhoitse so who might you be, other than dpb's friend ?
juhoitse: Not really anyone special, what do you want to know about me?
mircea_popescu: well, what work / studying do you do, that sorta thing.
juhoitse: I'm finishing high school at the moment, going to study engineering in a uni hopefully soon
mircea_popescu: a. cool.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Here is the whole unredacted contract. I am unsure what, if anything ought to be redacted before publication given the mission of maximally pissing on the enemy by not being a prude http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/7WHsY/?raw=true
juhoitse: And I'm Finnish
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo ima look.
mircea_popescu: juhoitse what's that do ?
juhoitse: What do?
diana_coman: juhoitse, what do you intend to do here?
mircea_popescu: do you get superpowers or something ? for instance, i'm romanian, and consequently i can curse.
juhoitse: Well I think I want to get to into bitcoin some more
mircea_popescu: in other lulz : "why did you bring your cat to school, joey ?" "because as i was leaving daddy said to mommy he's gonna eat that pussy once joey leaves for school ;/"
juhoitse: Getting a job soon so gonna have some money to invest as well
juhoitse: As a finn I have the immunity to hard liqour but I've lost my social skills as a consequence
mircea_popescu: juhoitse better than nothing.
diana_coman: juhoitse, I suggest you try making some btc directly in eulora; at least there you can't lose more than you have
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo lol, you actually met teh president ?
juhoitse: Thanks for the tip man
juhoitse: Im trying to learn slowly but surely about all these cryptothings
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Small country
BingoBoingo: But no I did not meet him, he sent his regards.
mircea_popescu: aite. so i say publish as is, but replace the addresses with ***.
mircea_popescu: and it looks like we're paying 10 cents a Watt, so that settles that score.
BingoBoingo: Cool, after that two month reflection blog post with authoring possibly interupted by almurzo.
mircea_popescu: now in a position to restate http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-06#1782000 as follows :
a111: Logged on 2018-02-06 05:03 mircea_popescu: so then, 7150 * 6 / 52 / 40 * 2 = 41.25 final cost, per week. includes 1U of space, 302GB of weekly upload / 3TB download (as per 20 × 3600 × 24 × 7 ÷ 40) and lessee re wattage,
diana_coman: juhoitse, best answer really is... doing; if unclear what, ask
juhoitse: I'm googling about eulora rn
juhoitse: And probably start there
diana_coman: join #eulora; read eulorum.org
mircea_popescu: so then, (7150 - 1403) * 6 / 52 / 40 * 2 = 33.15 final cost, per week. includes 1U of space, 37.75GB of weekly upload / 377.5GB download (as per 20 / 8 × 3600 × 24 × 7 ÷ 40) and 2500/40 = 62.5 Watts of power (in the sense of 37.8 MJ).
juhoitse: Yea reading the eulora.org at the moment
mircea_popescu: Extra power is 20 cents/Watt, can be had as an add-on. Extra bandwidth, idem, though because granularity issues can't really give a fixed price in advance. but something like $20 doubles it, more or less.
mircea_popescu: and, of course, the boxes discussed if rented add another $50. or else can colocate own, but must be provided CIF @ BingoBoingo
diana_coman didn't know it was republica ORIENTAL del uruguay, ha
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: It is eastern in a sense
BingoBoingo: of being east
diana_coman: well, it certainly sounds quite... east-ish, let's say; I'm surprised at how much I can actually read /follow that thing now
mircea_popescu: espanol/castellano no es dificil
BingoBoingo: No one seems to call it Castellano here in the city, maybe in the countryside?
mircea_popescu: certainly in arjentina.
diana_coman: BingoBoingo, is the "company" having your name or isn't this between latechco and your company or what?
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, this reminds me of early attempts with Italian: when stuck, grab a Romanian/French/latin word, stick Italian ending on it and say it loud and clear; it the worse case locals will promptly correct it
diana_coman: !!key juhoitse
BingoBoingo: <diana_coman> BingoBoingo, is the "company" having your name or isn't this between latechco and your company or what? << At present due to the painful $900 lesson my name is my company, though it is indeed a legally registered company in Uruguay. Once I have a local ID (Hopefully sometime March-April) and I make another run at the corporation (because the provisional ID cuts the passport knot) it will be [insert aculturally relevant
BingoBoingo: name] S.A. but it will have a seperate "doing business as" name which I figure might as well just be my name according to the principal of maximum pissing on.
BingoBoingo: !~later tell pete_dushenski Have you been following the BBisp developments?
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded.
mod6: mornin'
BingoBoingo: Buenas tardes mod6
mod6: flu :<
mod6: it was bound to get me eventually
shinohai: Feel for ya mod6. I got a relapse too. You shouldn't have been hanging around me this past weekend. :P
mod6: heheh
mod6: last weekened i was all cocky about it too. "look at everyone gettin sick! NOT ME!"
mod6: 'tis what i deserve
asciilifeform also finally infected. plox to buffer the haetmail , folx, for day or two.
diana_coman: !!rate juhoitse 1 can follow directions; euloran noob
shinohai: !~bible Proverbs 16:18
jhvh1: shinohai: [KJV] Proverbs 16:18 :: Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 7046.25, vol: 72965.90197081 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 7050.7, vol: 213281.0619885 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 7025.0, vol: 31563.5419164 | Volume-weighted last average: 7047.12591648
BingoBoingo: In history found hunting for log links http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-08#1579615
a111: Logged on 2016-12-08 03:29 mircea_popescu: ex of 1B documents. Then our cost comes down to $12M/yr." << this danluu piece is the most idiotic thing i read all day. what the fuck has "cloud" done to these people that they think a 1bn index cost A MILLION A MONTH holy shit.
BingoBoingo: ^ Two month reflection post published
a111: Logged on 2018-02-06 14:54 diana_coman: mircea_popescu, this reminds me of early attempts with Italian: when stuck, grab a Romanian/French/latin word, stick Italian ending on it and say it loud and clear; it the worse case locals will promptly correct it
mircea_popescu: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 7135.29, vol: 71089.68377008 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 7133.3, vol: 207043.5010283 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 7119.7, vol: 30818.2037311 | Volume-weighted last average: 7132.40128548
mircea_popescu: aww not even 5k ? i r diss-appoint ;/
BingoBoingo: Only so many laffs in this joak
mircea_popescu: because i suspect we're stuck with it until well over >1mn shitiats per coin.
BingoBoingo: Well, they gotta let the price run up again before they waterfall for increasingly disappointing crashes a couple more times at least.
mircea_popescu: eh, by now it's like...
mircea_popescu: well, sorta like libtarded precious cuntlet in 2018. "i wonder why nobody writes to me on fetlife!!!" "where's your nudie shots ?" "ummmm..."
mircea_popescu: then again, there were idiots "working for the government" in the 90s eastern bloc...
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/02/apple-fails-to-segregate-data-sends-installation-and-marketing-data-to-rival-firms/ << Qntra - Apple Fails To Segregate Data: Sends Installation And Marketing Data To Rival Firms
mircea_popescu: btw BingoBoingo : do some research, see if you can actually mount the proposed config as such, see if you find better parts or anything.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2018/the-disaster-artist/ << Trilema - The Disaster Artist
BingoBoingo: Will do, have a Spanish lesson in a bit. Despues tengo tiempo para esta tarea.
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-06#1781846 << In the early searching I am wondering if a cooler will fit
a111: Logged on 2018-02-06 01:57 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo phf trinque diana_coman so i'm thinking of basically getting a dozen amd fx-8350s (because just 125w compared to say fx-9590s 220) racked in u2 mbs (say maybe ASRock 970M PRO3 ? i thinkl that fits in 2u neh ?) with 64 gb ram each and a coupla ssds ? any complaints/suggestions ?
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo the idea is to put them in 2u
mircea_popescu: 2u is like... 8.9cm tall. you think not ?
mircea_popescu: (this ~is~ a desktop cpu ; so it may need special mounting, but i don't think it should be outright unmountable. the asrock is a mini-atx, afaik those fit in 2u.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in harem delights, breakfast pancakes with tahini, gingseng molasses, fruit and venezuelan rum, served aside colombian coffee.
BingoBoingo: The board ought to fit in 2U, plently of chassis advertised for that if not necessarily here in Uruguay. The FX-8xxx series though is apparently quite the heater.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo it eats 125W and has 4 power-down steppings. how much can it heat.
mircea_popescu: but its microatx ftr, not mini. that's even smaller than the itx
mircea_popescu: anyway, the board itself is glass pcb, a fine piece indeed. however, the processor doesn't even work over 60 celsius.
mircea_popescu: BUT : if you have good cooling, cpu is "unlocked" and motherboard supports it, so you can prolly overclock it to like 5k
ben_vulpes impressed with today's musklaunch
ben_vulpes: also i like rockets
doppler: synchronized booster landing was pretty impressive
mircea_popescu: rocketcar when
mod6: hopefully soon
BingoBoingo: While I do some measurement and chassis hunting, here is the board powering Qntra if anyone wants to build their own. https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813138448
ben_vulpes: in other criminal organization news, even the locals are getting in on it http://www.wbtv.com/story/37442000/source-davidson-county-deputy-arrested-after-bank-robbery-in-rockwell
jhvh1: danielpbarron: The operation succeeded.
mod6: davout comin of the top rope
mod6: off too
shinohai: ^ LOLOLOL
BingoBoingo: !!up joecool
deedbot: joecool voiced for 30 minutes.
joecool: thanks
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> 2u is like... 8.9cm tall. you think not ? << Alright with the amd fx-8350 there are skus that some with different coolers. There the stock cooler that looks like it should not be a problem, and then there is the WRAITH special edition kooler 4Gamerz which is 80 mm high and rather tall for a 2U case. Whoever goes piling iron would be advised to watch this difference.
mircea_popescu: what do you mean whoever ?
BingoBoingo: Well, someone is piling hardware in the US? I haven't seen volunteers yet other than phf to courier
mircea_popescu: you mean when buying, buy the standard not the wraith cooler ?
BingoBoingo: Yeah. The wraith is not going to fit in 2U
BingoBoingo: The standard will.
mircea_popescu: do you have sideways fan covers for the rack units btw ? or how does it look ?
mircea_popescu: were you going to publish some pix at some point or what came of that ?
BingoBoingo: I have not been there yet. Though I might be able to find some sorta box to throw in the cage. Returning to the datacenter tomorrow say hello, take pics, and ask again about importers. I was distracted by accounting/blogging/sheetmetalhunt Monday/Today.
mircea_popescu: wait wait, i thought you had visited the dc floor ?
mircea_popescu: how did the qntra box get installed ?
BingoBoingo: I meant I have not been there since the installation.
mircea_popescu: aite. do you know the covers i mean ?
BingoBoingo: I am going there again tomorrow. I held the thing in place helpful guy used the screwdriver to secure it to the rack studs. Apologies for the ambiguity.
BingoBoingo: I do not yet know.
shinohai: Good news mod6 .... this flu shit is all in our head: http://archive.is/aY4l1
mircea_popescu: basically they are a face for 3U, blow air out of the rack.
mircea_popescu: (you put one or two blowing in at the bottom, and same number blowing out at the top)
mircea_popescu: cabinets often come with them preinstalled, but then again that's more a mid/high market thing ; yours may be barebones-er than this.
mod6 looks
BingoBoingo: Ah. Right now are cage has a bunch of the solid plastic slats in the front. This has been added to the questions checklist.
mod6: HEAL ME BABY JEEBUS!
mircea_popescu: poor mobile46836
mircea_popescu: oops i mean mod6
mod6: BingoBoingo: good work. looking forward to ze pics
BingoBoingo: Ahora, me voy a dormir
mod6: buenos noches
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2018/the-incredible-productive-assets-and-unlimited-human-ingenuity-existing-in-america/ << Trilema - The incredible productive assets and unlimited human ingenuity existing in America.
TomServo: BingoBoingo: In my experience the plastic slats are intended to better maintain hot/cold isle airflow.
mircea_popescu: dja have dc experience then ?
TomServo: Yes, a bit.
mircea_popescu: well, tips & tricks appreciated, i'm sure.
mircea_popescu: mod6 for the sake of nitpicks, it's buenas, cuz somehow la noche is feminine. buenos tacos / buenas noches.
TomServo: Well, I'm a bit miffed at the idea of stuffing consumer gear in racks, but I've not tried this. Seems risky.
mircea_popescu: think it'll blow up ?
TomServo: Airflow is crucial in a dense environment.
mod6: mircea_popescu: ah, thanks.
TomServo: If not dense, prolly not an issue. But if it starts filling.. I'd be worried.
mircea_popescu: well, i expect draw in the 200-250W. that means at most 10 per rack at current power.
mircea_popescu: very theoretically could fit 20, and perhaps the dc can provide the extra wattage. but gotta see somehow.
mircea_popescu: but in principle, gear can't produce more heat than the electricity it gets. so i expect at some point they'll start whining about "Gotta get another rack, we can't go over 4kw/per" or w/e they do. no ?
TomServo: Yes, very much principly a power concern.
mircea_popescu: so i'm kinda trying to outsource the heat knowhow to the dc, in this passive manner. kinda why i got a low W cpu. i'm thinking i'd have to worry more about some modern 500W bs "single"t or multi-cpu than about this basically 125W max power item. how much can it possibly heat...
TomServo: That's true, but weren't you discussing stuffing 4 mini itxs in one case? with vertical exhuasting cpu fans?
mircea_popescu: take something like http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-06#1782012 : if you did actyually put 4 to the mobo, as they theoretically can suffer, and somehow stuffed all this in 1U, and attempted to put 40 such units at half a kW each inside one rack, i'd fully expect the whole thing melting down within the hour. not even water can take out 20KJ/s out of a (stationary) rack. we're talking like, car engine sorta coolings by now.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-06 10:46 mircea_popescu: now, of course, the 6376 could be piled 4 to the motherboard. but i tell you i don't see you'd want it, considering how much it eats.
mircea_popescu: TomServo no, no, the design contemplated is http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-06#1782165
a111: Logged on 2018-02-06 19:40 a111: Logged on 2018-02-06 01:57 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo phf trinque diana_coman so i'm thinking of basically getting a dozen amd fx-8350s (because just 125w compared to say fx-9590s 220) racked in u2 mbs (say maybe ASRock 970M PRO3 ? i thinkl that fits in 2u neh ?) with 64 gb ram each and a coupla ssds ? any complaints/suggestions ?
mircea_popescu: the (consumer) motherboard is microATX (the somewhat intermediate one) not micro-ATX (the smaller-than-ITX novel thing).
mircea_popescu: jesus fuck.
mircea_popescu: the (consumer) motherboard is miniATX (the somewhat intermediate one, 10x10) not mini-ATX (the smaller-than-ITX novel thing, 6x6).
mircea_popescu: this is officially the dumbest standard i ever encountered. i am officially giving up trying to use the words, will use the numbers.
TomServo: ahah
mircea_popescu: so, the 9.6 x 9.6 inch form factor.
mircea_popescu: (for the confused : microATX, introduced cca 1996, is 244x244 mm ; same witdh but shorter than the plain ATX ; meanwhile mini-ITX is 170x170, whereas mini-ATX is 150x150 mm, so even smaller.)
mircea_popescu: so the mini's tiny when compared to the hefty micro. because why the fucknot.
mircea_popescu: as to the vertical exhaust, it was more of a "do you have it" curio than anything.
TomServo: Ah, then I misunderstood.
mircea_popescu: to my (admittedly aloof) reasoning, even if filled with 20 of these, the rack would have plenty of swim space on the sides, and should at least theoretically be ok. i dunno, i guess we find out.
TomServo: If it is any help, some info from a quote for US DC circa 2016,
TomServo: will provide specified amount of kW capacity from Primary (A Side) to
TomServo: be shared by the circuits listed below. The total draw between the connected “A
TomServo: & B” circuits should not exceed specified kW of draw.
TomServo: Provisioned capacity cannot exceed 150% of commitment.
TomServo: same again for B side, 20 kw
TomServo: non standard 52U
TomServo: this was $4460/mo USD and doesn't include any data service
TomServo: (or setup fees)
lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-06#1782051 << fwiw I'd be vehehehry interested in a bbisp $20 per month shared hosting
a111: Logged on 2018-02-06 13:21 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo : the logic is, ima want 5 of the dozen ; the rest could each at least in principle support 100 "shared" sorta sites each, at $20 a month or whatever you end up charging. that's, if you manage to fill up the lot, $14`000 per month in revenue.
mircea_popescu: TomServo ok, but i'm more interested in... do you have some way to discern whether more cores or more clock speed are more valuable ?
mircea_popescu: is http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-06#1782018 for instance judicious or misguided iyo ?
a111: Logged on 2018-02-06 11:09 mircea_popescu: take something like, i dunno, epyc-7351 say. costs 7x, has 4x the cores, 4.5x the ram speed, 4.5x the l2/3 cache and 50% the power. basically i'm getting less than twice as much processor per watt, if i pay 7x the money. meh.
mircea_popescu: lobbes wouldja be interested in ordering parts for phf's trip btw ?
TomServo: mircea_popescu: I would expect cores and I certainly wouldn't be considering overclocking in a DC environment.
TomServo: I think you're on the right track not paying the price premium on the latest and greatest and eating the power.
mircea_popescu: why not overclocking ?
TomServo: Seems to be begging for heat and reliability issues when the goal should be reliability.
mircea_popescu: well, if you're stuck with an overloaded rack for the few days till you get the other one up for instance, it's nice to know you've got a 20% afterburner you can run on.
mircea_popescu: and in unrelated, wanker's worldview of perhaps entomological interest, http://theferrett.livejournal.com/1498823.html
lobbes: mircea_popescu, I may be able to order something, depending on price (any gear needed under $500, say?). I've been meaning to convert some more fiat into coin anyway
mircea_popescu: not clear yet, intuitively there's a ~600, a ~1.5k, a ~4k and a ~9k chunk. but we see.
lobbes could possibly swing the ~600. will keep eyes tuned to logs
TomServo: mircea_popescu: that's true, but you should have plenty of warning before needing to consider torching your gear
mircea_popescu: eh, there's cpus that are made for overclocking. such as this one. it'll run fine for years, if kept cool.
TomServo: I can likely order gear as well, but I don't expect that will be a problem.
mircea_popescu: TomServo the more the merrier.
TomServo: I've not kept up-to-date, but in my understanding of successful overclocking is often dependant on specialized cooling systems expected to be in a mini or full tower.
TomServo: If overclocking, why not go full throttle?
TomServo: If not full throttle, is it really worth the effort compared to throwing in another system?
trinque: yeh, gotta keep in mind that rack slots are narrow, and you're being cooked by your neighbor on two sides
trinque: also given the difficulty of getting parts on site, might want to optimize for longevity, then CPU cycles
mod6: yeah.
trinque: mircea_popescu: in re: cores, depends what you're running. most of my existing servers are many separate services doing tasks that don't block each other, whereas if running trb it's doubtful the thing benefits from even one extra core, except insofar as the rest of the OS's doings get shuffled off to it.
ben_vulpes: cooked, yes, but you hoover from the aisle in the front and dump into the aisle in the back. so long as everyone's dumping out the back, nobody should be sucking exhaust gases.
trinque: ben_vulpes: wasn't thinking of it, just heat through the metal case
ben_vulpes: i know but if the convective flux is adequate there really shouldn't be that much heat conducted from machine to machine
ben_vulpes: moreover it'd be what, mostly radiant with a bit of conductive through the air gap between servers, which can probably be approximated as stagnant and a good insulator
ben_vulpes: and heaven help the person who lets their box get hot enough to transfer heat radiantly
trinque: anybody here overclocked before?
mod6: i haven't for 20 years, but it basically resulted in a very unstable box.
trinque: heat's one issue, general system stability another. who's going to fiddle with BIOS voltage settings?
mod6: it would just randomly crash, and reset.
mod6: sure, got maybe a bit more throughput, but the tradeoff was certainly not worth it if not, for instance, gaming.
ben_vulpes: intel calls that an "unplanned restart" these days lol
TomServo: That was my point, I don't see it being worth the effore given cpu cheapness.. even with the VAT.
mod6: lol of course they do
TomServo: ben_vulpes: not sure about any air gap, all the racks i've seen are pretty pretty tight
ben_vulpes: it's not actual box-to-box conductive contact
ben_vulpes: i've never racked machines that squealed on insert, you?
TomServo: that's fair, no
ben_vulpes: since we're doing thermofluids tonight...
TomServo: but i've also never racked overclocked servers and would expect no joy to come from it
ben_vulpes: the concern is convective heat transfer between servers. for that to happen there must be a) great enough gradient of heat between the machines and b) enough space between machines for air currents to get moving
ben_vulpes: heaven help us if the machine bodies actually drive a) because someone isn't cooling adequately, and if the gap is sufficiently small (as anyone with dc experience can attest) we'll probably have "stagnation" conditions, where the air is not actually circulating between the machines
TomServo: but the air between machines isn't moving, right? if not by convection?
ben_vulpes: right, which is why your double-paned windows are so much better of an insulator
ben_vulpes: that argon between them doesn't move; the viscosity of the gas keeps it locked in place and it acts as a superior insulator to the glass.
ben_vulpes: air currents within the DC might actually ruin this, but for the sake of the gedankenexperiment, let's neglect those for now
trinque: this is a fun exercise, but the air gap is not sealed between the units
ben_vulpes: if we don't neglect it, i'd expect entrained flow in the same direction as the convective cooling flux, eg from front of rack to back
ben_vulpes: thereby actually improving cooling conditions
trinque: making them better than if there were no servers on either side?
ben_vulpes: well, no, we're talking like sub-1% contribution to overall cooling
ben_vulpes: but in theory, if you want to wank over the thermofluids
TomServo: This seems like strained reasoning to justify overclocking for what I see is a minimally appreciable gain.
ben_vulpes: i ain't justifying shit, i'm saying that i'm not concerned about the health of the rack from a few hot boxes.
ben_vulpes: what, they heat up, crack their pcbs, shut down. run your fans, this won't be a problem.
trinque: makes sense, I won't dispute that part.
ben_vulpes: TomServo: i personally run machines for longevity, but i can see why mircea_popescu and BingoBoingo would want to run their lowendboxen hot and cram as much into 'em as possible.
TomServo: I think trinque 's point about hardware import difficulties is important to consider when stressing the gear, is all.
TomServo: ben_vulpes: I see also, just thought it was worth mentioning.
trinque: ben_vulpes: fine strategy when replacements are stacked within reach.
mod6: any customer who's paying for a service won't appreciate random reboots
ben_vulpes: not trying to cut you down TomServo
trinque: mod6: customer might. say a set of game servers that can handle losing a node for a bit. just depends.
trinque: my main point is to be ready with a stack of spares if that's the strategy
ben_vulpes: heh yeah i think trinque and i have pretty similar attitudes towards how to treat machines you're going to run hard
ben_vulpes: make 'em someone else's problem, and pay for the convenience.
ben_vulpes: this ftr is what galls me about ssds; the accelerated deterioration rate.
TomServo: Well, running hard and diddling overlclock settings + babysitting detail are different things, I think.
ben_vulpes: points on a continuum from where i sit
TomServo: Agreed, I'll admit the overclocking really threw me.
ben_vulpes: much like the honda babywagon i've allocated vs the three f1 engines a team's allowed in a season
ben_vulpes: girl is just not going to rev my shit past 4500, you know?
trinque: lol aha. I've never seen such a polite huge truck driver as mine.
trinque: "baby, you know they'll just move out of the way for it, yeah?"
ben_vulpes: hahaha i fuckin know it's charming
ben_vulpes: but it's great for rolling with road sodas
ben_vulpes: zero likelihood of interdiction with a polite babe at the wheel.
TomServo: ben_vulpes: We call those 'travelers' in my parts. A 'roadie' if you're uncouth.
ben_vulpes: heh i dunno that i've ever heard a couth name for the practice tbh; or any person who'd call themselves couth engaging in it
ben_vulpes: of the esl set that is
TomServo: I doubt there is one. Perhaps I misunderstood 'road sodas' when converting to local parlance.
ben_vulpes: a beer in the car!
TomServo: right! well in northern wisconsin there are CLASSES of beers in cars
trinque: I think this practice persisted legally until quite recently in TX
TomServo chuckles
TomServo: some! contain no beer at all! strickly Windsor Canadian Whiskey
ben_vulpes: right right, that
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