Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2017-04-08 | 2017-04-10 →
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1492...7877 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' ( GR I)
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1559...3553 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' ( GR I)
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1543...1669 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' ( PL)
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1690...9873 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' ( PL)
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1650...6967 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' ( FR)
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1778...2423 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' ( FR)
jurov: ben_vulpes: as they say - "moved networking to own thread. now i have two problems."
Framedragger: !!up BenBE
deedbot: BenBE voiced for 30 minutes.
Framedragger: BenBE: you had some questions about phuctor?
Framedragger: relevant folks may be afk right now, tho. best to hang around after asking :)
mircea_popescu: << i suppose in the end the ustards will be remembered as "a group of know-nothings with bad answers for every question".
a111: Logged on 2017-04-08 22:44 asciilifeform: << gurl dun like the disciplinary-sanitarium of 'civilized society' and gets diagnosed, unsurprisingly, with вялотекущая шизофрения (tm)(r)(su)
BenBE: Are the keys mentioned in the stats somehow available as e.g. one big PGP dump file each?
a111: Logged on 2017-04-09 02:34 danielpbarron: shinohai, no i would not. might be adult swim bidding it up as a promo. On related note, wendy's fastfood chain is helping some highschool kid break world record retwats to promote their "chicken" nuggets. more than a million bots obliged in one day. goal is 18 million
mircea_popescu: BenBE you mean the phuctor db ?
BenBE: Essentially yes :)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform linked a dump at some point, check the logs. the principal parts are a sks+trims (keybase, whatnot) dump that might be still available, though 2 years back in logs, and Framedragger 's ssh scan results, which he might share with you.
mircea_popescu: then again he might not, seeing how who are you.
Framedragger: !$ phuctor
Framedragger: technology!
mircea_popescu: a there you go
mircea_popescu: nice little trim ya got there f.
mircea_popescu: what the fuck are all these people with penis pill spam still doing. seriously know, it's been out what, 20 years ? anyone who wants it has some / knows where to get it. who the fuck goes "oh, wow, check it out, penis pills! ima get myself sum o dat!"
BenBE: Getting the keys from the website is possible, but needing to scrape them is somewhat a bad solution (for all sides). The project I'm currently working on is an information service where you can ask for a public key or its fingerprint and the service will tell you some stuff about that key (type, where it was used before, has it been factored, is it sensibly sane, compromised and so on.
mircea_popescu: and where the hell is the "oh, cocaine, will get you high!!1" spam.
mircea_popescu: BenBE so you mean sorta like phuctor but with less information ?
shinohai suddenly remembers cocaine has properties that make it almost as effective as dick pills .....
mircea_popescu: why not just link it. school busywork or what is it ?
mircea_popescu: shinohai much better : the cocke you feed to the girls!
mircea_popescu always prefers to treat all conditions with pills ~other people~ swallow.
mircea_popescu: the way to paradise is paved with other people's deglutition.
shinohai: Pills are like phone apps in America it seems. "Oh you have the sniffles? There's a pill for that!"
BenBE: mircea_popescu: Like phuctore, but larger scope of key base (also covers X.509)
mircea_popescu: !~google x.509
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: X . 509 - Wikipedia: <>; What is X . 509 certificate? - Definition from <>; What is an X . 509 Certificate? - Stormpath: <>
Framedragger: BenBE: you can generate the phuctor fingerprint for linking directly to phuctor via (could be useful)
mircea_popescu: shinohai could it nuke those <>; it fucks up the logotrons
mircea_popescu: BenBE apparently x.509 is a john smithism, "here's a wrapper for reality i created because i'm from america and here we're retarded". what specifically do you mean, ecdsa ?
shinohai: I need to dig deeper into that, last attempt at removing the <> resulted in breaking the whole damned thing because python is a turd.
mircea_popescu: there aren't ~that many~ pki systems.
mircea_popescu: shinohai ah ok.
Framedragger: eh there was a plan for phuctor to ingest these certs, too, i think?
Framedragger: (but yeah unclear.)
mircea_popescu: shinohai seems easier though to chase you to drop it than to add it to the log standards.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger phuctor being a republic item it can only eat realities. how is it going to eat "evanghelical church" ? bitch, unwrap your branding, what is it ?
mircea_popescu: i dun expect we're going to be doing anything but rsa because well... how ?
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: sure. but there are rsa keys in https certs out there. but yet to be empirically approached and estimated, sure
mircea_popescu: i thought it's a 100% imperial racket, they use whatever faux crypto currently fashionable.
mircea_popescu: i guess could try and fish out the actual rsa keys from self-signed certs maybe
Framedragger: my https certs use rsa iirc (was some time ago so would need to check)
mircea_popescu: are they verizon issued ? or whatever the imperial anointed scammer involved with this racket is
mircea_popescu: it was v something
Framedragger: not only self-signed - in https you can have public rsa key but with additional 'chain' of imperial. still extractable
mircea_popescu: perhaps. but what is the return on that labour ?
mircea_popescu: they still issue diddled certs anyway.
Framedragger: further breakage of https :)
Framedragger: rightright.
mircea_popescu: you're asking me to find the second-possible cause of death of a corpse.
mircea_popescu: "But doc, had THIS not killed him, what would have next ?"
shinohai: mircea_popescu: what do you (and the other lords) think of ?
mircea_popescu: shinohai first time i see it.
shinohai: ( It's foss, so don't shoot me )
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: digicert etc.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: myeah.
mircea_popescu: anyway, that's my stance : it is pointless to inquire in the mathematical security of x.509 and related source schemes, because they are not secure by design anyway.
BenBE: mircea_popescu: I planned on DSA/ECDSA, but that's quite low on the priority list right now. Attack on both works somewhat different and requires data collection not as easily obtained as with RSA.
mircea_popescu: BenBE are you privy to an approach to ecdsa ?
BenBE: Some basic idea on old attacks (nonce reuse in particular), not fully up-to-date
mircea_popescu: seems if you were going after ecdsa you'd attack the curves not the keys. kind of a wasted effort seeing how the curve authors already know the holes and why the fuck would i bother when blacklisting works so well. but anyway.
Framedragger: i don't personally think it's a completely wasted effort if any backdoors in parameters are opened up to all, vs. just the owners.
mircea_popescu: return on labour Framedragger !
BenBE: Lacking the resources for performing the ECDSA part right now anyway (thus low on the priority list)
Framedragger: you may be underestimating the scope of EC crypto in use on teh world. (then again, why should one care about a broken world anyway, sure)
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: hm sure :)
mircea_popescu: and especially as a small and high mommentum entity you DO NOT want to go chasing any "large investment upfront payout way later" deals. so much "low investment payout over time in exponential fahsion" holes still available.
BenBE: There's quite some EC in use currently. And be it all those "transparency logs"
mircea_popescu: that's kind-of the principal impedance mismatch tmsr gotta deal with : the natural membership is highly technically skilled, which in general comes out of a tendency to focus and follow in depth. this means it selects for a certain bias in task seleciton. however, due to tactical considerations, most of the useful work is exactly opposite.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-07 14:17 asciilifeform: if i had insisted, phuctor would still be a waited-for thing
mircea_popescu: BenBE those who ?
BenBE: mircea_popescu: Mostly the Certificate Transparency logs used by browsers, block chains used in many (if not most) crypto currencies. All public records containing both public keys and signatures made by them.
BenBE: Thus exactly the information you need to attack those keys by looking for nonce reuse isses.
Framedragger: ah yes i forgot what bitcoin uses lol.
Framedragger: that, too
mircea_popescu: well, hopefully this problem gets resolved by crap not making it into trb-i
Framedragger: !!up BenBE
deedbot: BenBE voiced for 30 minutes.
BenBE: Well, IMHO it's not that most crypto is bad. It's the systems it's used in. Plus, most systems are quite fixed on one particular algorithm yielding an easy-to-attack ecosystem.
mircea_popescu: BenBE this imho stuff is no good because we don't know who you are. who are you ?
jhvh1: BenBE, who is your daddy and what does he do?
BenBE: I'm the maintainer of the GeSHi syntax highlighter for PHP, which is used in e.g. Wikipedia for source highlighting of articles. Also working on several crypto-related projects like my own TLS/SSL test, a collection of publicly-known set of compromised keys, an OpenSource management software for handling X.509 certificate issuance for a certificate authority.
mircea_popescu: got a gpg key ?
BenBE: Yes. Several.
mircea_popescu: pick one you're never going to ever lose, stick it in then say !!register
Framedragger: BenBE: cool
jhvh1: That's a lot of words to not tell me who your daddy is.
mircea_popescu: shinohai dun knock it, might've been the best answer to date. except perhaps that reuters chick.
deedbot: DBCDD109DEB2BF7812D6056F3E26EAC5AE73583E registered as BenBE.
shinohai may make a compilation of "Who is your daddy" replies one day ...
a111: Logged on 2017-04-09 13:48 BenBE: I'm the maintainer of the GeSHi syntax highlighter for PHP, which is used in e.g. Wikipedia for source highlighting of articles. Also working on several crypto-related projects like my own TLS/SSL test, a collection of publicly-known set of compromised keys, an OpenSource management software for handling X.509 certificate issuance for a certificate authority.
mircea_popescu: !!v B67FA3B83D21D098FF4B283327F3DB37C667FF2FF4E23338340B30BF90C32BD4
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated BenBE 1 << / php something
mircea_popescu: BenBE now you can self-voice (!!v ) ; do that it'll save us the trouble to up you.
mircea_popescu: also, do you know what a wot is ?
BenBE: mircea_popescu: thx.
BenBE: You mean WOT as in Web-of-Trust?
mircea_popescu: tmsr relies on a rsa-based wot implementation. for instance
mircea_popescu: !!gettrust Framedragger BenBE
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 1 by 1 connections.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-24 19:29 pete_dushenski: shinohai: updated with !~lookup and !~display :)
BenBE: mircea_popescu: No only PHP, but also C/C++, Java, web stuff, ASM (mostly x86/x64), Haskell, shell scripting, ... Also, as we are at WoTs:
mircea_popescu: i believe you might like it here.
shinohai: !~later tell pete_dushenski Entry in bots directory for "Time since last block" has transposed letter, should be `tslb` - Thanks!
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
Framedragger: unrelated to anything, i'm not sure if my deeding at worked, as it's not on - or did i misunderstand something? deedbot did say 'accepted: 1'
a111: Logged on 2017-04-08 16:26 Framedragger: !!deed
mircea_popescu: Framedragger possibly didn't manage to get a txn in
Framedragger: ohh, interesting
BenBE: Framedragger: That's one of the resources I will be sourcing my Key Information service from. Contains the private keys for e.g. the OpenSSL Debian Weak Keys (complete)
Framedragger: oh, nice to have all of them at one place, convenient
mircea_popescu: BenBE as your luck has it we just did a phuctor snapshot, the complete list is at
mircea_popescu: Framedragger do you currently cache the whole phuctored dir ?
deedbot: accepted: 1
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: everything except sadmods so as not to upset phuctor too much. need to discuss frequency of caching with asciilifeform i think
mircea_popescu: need a better method than downloading the whole list of shit you already know every time.
mircea_popescu: i suppose that method'd be rss
Framedragger: rsa truncates, etc etc, other methods (pg notify / etc as mentioned by trinque) require asciilifeform's intervention
asciilifeform: 'Crypto-Nerd who is allergic to bad crypto.' and uses keybase?!
Framedragger: i don't think rsa gives all, just 'first 10' or sth
Framedragger: eh it's like facebook, i have a shitty facebook acct, too
mircea_popescu: anyway, so then the cannonical "i want to import list of phuctor-broken keys" should be ?
mircea_popescu: Framedragger dja mean rss ? that's the fucking point, to truncate, so you don't keep getting ancient data
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: i mean that not *all* new entries are included, rsa truncates, them, too. asciilifeform can confirm tho.
mircea_popescu: that's no good then
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: siphnos url is - i don't think 'canonical' can be decided until a sane caching strategy is decided, tho.
Framedragger: or not?
mircea_popescu: i wasn'\t aware it does, that's what deedbot uses to pipe here also
Framedragger: did i do a fakenews
asciilifeform: trinque truncated the rsa in the bot, with ellipsis
asciilifeform: otherwise end gets cut
mircea_popescu: Framedragger we're not discussing the stats but the meat of the matter. same stuff as is in the link i gave him above ( 3mb or w./e it is
Framedragger: asciilifeform: oh, so only the deedbot announcer here on irc excludes some new keys?
asciilifeform: Framedragger: not afaik
mircea_popescu: does not exclude new keys, excludes middle chars of found factors.
mircea_popescu: because fixed line space in irc proto
asciilifeform: on a few occasions buffer overran
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: if you check, the hrefs on that index page link to phuctored.html on siphnos etc
Framedragger: asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ok, sorry for that then
BenBE: asciilifeform: it's not totally broken (as with GnuPGs normal WoT) in that it makes transparent to not expect too much from it, appart from account associations.
asciilifeform: (rss overran faster than deedbot ate)
mircea_popescu: BenBE "Shit Restaurant ; Don't Expect No Turds!" ?
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: the only external-dump link there is sadmods (not yet cached - again, unsure of impact on phuctor performance)
mircea_popescu: Framedragger so then, to get back. next time someone wants what BenBE wanted above the answer should be,html ?
mircea_popescu: well dot rather than comma, but anyway.
mircea_popescu: aha. cool.
asciilifeform: BenBE: 1) they want your privkey 2) they purport to accept 'private' msgs to you, on their www
Framedragger: and presumably sadmods as well in the future (again, not yet cached)
mircea_popescu: hopefully we don't end up with too many people importing this and then wanting to strangle us when the obviously adhoc tree ends up rebased.
asciilifeform: 3) they can serve up whatever as 'your' pubk to others
BenBE: asciilifeform: 1) No, can use it without (just need to do stuff on the command line then) 2) not a feature you need to use. There's a CLI clint you can audit and use.
mircea_popescu: BenBE the problem is that others may attempt to use it and involve you thereby. which is also the whole of their business plan, i'm sure you realise. anyway, the whole thing's moot : proper wot exists, we're using it, the soup can go hang.
asciilifeform: also, to answer earlier q: there are already very effective pills against ssl: timing attack, nonce reuse for dsa (you can find existing code)
BenBE: Suggstiong: you have all the keys available that make up those dumps. What about using a batch job (once per day) creating a large .pgp file people can download. That's both static and gives people all the information (create UIDs for the extra stuff if necessary)
asciilifeform: but phuctor is for finding weak ~genuine~ crypto: offline rsa with dud moduli
mircea_popescu: BenBE trouble is we're moving away from the inept koch standard.
mircea_popescu: you can have the moduli, atm. once a proper standard for rsa key wrapping is decided upon, can also have that. state of the art atm is
asciilifeform: and no i am not interested in giving it away as an ornamental flower on some low-effort pile of ?. there is a reason the source is private.
asciilifeform: get the published data, verify it, write yet own, learn something!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i'm not sure what you're saying.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that 'i'ma write a phuctor but for EVERY!! type of key' is a n00b mistake
mircea_popescu: ah, sure.
mircea_popescu: tbh i'm not sure what fellow's trying to do, but anyway.
asciilifeform: and that folks who want to 'embrace and extend' phuctor are on their own.
mircea_popescu: for a moment there it read as "i don't like $newguy, he might do something stupid." which is silly, let him do the stupid first, not like him after. wtf preemptive dislike.
asciilifeform: i like him just fine, hence attempt to educate.
asciilifeform: 'write your own phuctor' is not an insult, but a homework
BenBE: It is when you can't handle the vast amount of data it involves (and yes, I know that vast is an understatement here). Alone building a database to manage all the raw data for my KeyInfoDB/Kompromat project is ~500GB (compressed) keys. Automating stuff for grabbing these at their source for import is a chalenge of its own.
BenBE: But getting everything into place helps alot figuring out how to best optimise your DB, how to perform imports, and so on.
asciilifeform: i published an sks eater here a few yrs ago, search logs
BenBE: Can't claim I didn't learn anything while preparing to setup my project.
BenBE operates -> direct access to ingest PGP keys live :)
mircea_popescu: dja understand why we don't like fc 4880 format ?
BenBE: Hard to parse, the RFC is somewhat strange, and possibly other things.
mircea_popescu: absolutely not.
BenBE: At least those were the aspects I mostly disliked about it. What were yours?
Framedragger: !#s rfc4880
mircea_popescu: it is deliberately constructed to weaken rsa ; take the recent "sha fails, koch-gpg fingerprints are meaningless", which had been foretold here for... years.
mircea_popescu: but to be perfectly clear : rfc 4880 is not technically weak. it is politically subverside, and deliberately so. it consists of the same material that has schneider running around trying to convince people turning their computer in for an ipad is "the way to bright future of socialism", or of the uk cocksuckers that covered up rotherham droning on as to how they have to have everyone's keys to "catch criminals".
Framedragger: (well it's also technically weak by using a 160 bit hash, etc) :p
mircea_popescu: yes, in the sense hiv whore also has the flu.
BenBE: OT: I know the guy who recently broke the GnuPG PRNG. He has been working on a project with me for some time
BenBE: Depending on the circles you worked in, you knew GnuPG is broken on several levels.
BenBE: I asked W.Koch about the PRNG about 2 years prior to the break last year. And even then it had been know for years before that, that the PRNG is phishy but nobody cared to actually step forward and rip it open.
mircea_popescu: BenBE do you also know the FUCKGOATS, so as not to ever again use a "prng" for as long as you live ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally, the more i think about it the more i'm convinced the ONLY "fingerprint" for rsa key may be... the modulus. 4096 bits and fuck you, if you can't take 32 chars you don't belong here.
mircea_popescu: no hashing may be involved.
mircea_popescu: BenBE yes, but here's the extra step : not only do i know koch is an evil shithead who dedicates his time doing evil. i also say it.
BenBE: Didn't know that particular project, but have a true RNG based on the WhirlyGig design at warmcat
BenBE: mircea_popescu: I think there's a difference between suspecting someone of malice and proving it. Cf. Occam's razor.
BenBE: I am vary of things he does, will also tell others to do the same, but absent of proof I can't reasonably call him malicious.
mircea_popescu: i needn't prove it. he doesn't want to be ~guilty~ he keeps out of doing bad things. that simple.
mircea_popescu: perfectly reasonable.
mircea_popescu: BenBE where can i get this whirlygig thingee ?
BenBE: mircea_popescu: - unfortunately link to original page is down. Also using a FPGA port (done by a friend, verified against dieharder as a starting point).
BenBE: Will do.
BenBE: What's the entropy source used in those Cardano RNG?
mircea_popescu: johnson noise
BenBE: With the WhirlyGig it's temperature-based modulation of ring oscillators.
BenBE: Both are viable choices.
mircea_popescu: can't say i have any experience with said modulation. what are the ring oscillators built out of ?
BenBE: In the FPGA versions they are built of unclocked rings of logic gates (transistors). With the FPGA I use they oscillate at about 150-200MHz (if I read the information of the synth tool correct)
mircea_popescu: did you do a mapping of temperature -> entropy or anything like that ?
mircea_popescu: obvious example : does monotonous temperature variation result in more 1's ? something along the lines of "batch 1 we kept at 20, batch 2 we took from 0 to 40 over one hour, batch 3 we took from 40 to 0 over one hour. out of the 10gb worth of entropy recorded in that hour, batch 1 is 50-50 split, batch 2 is 75% 0s, batch 3 is 74% 1s.
BenBE: No, only did some tests with dieharder on its output (at 2Mbps) which score several less WEAK in the results.
mircea_popescu: BenBE FG scores perfection not before seen in ent/dieharder, not terribly sure how much that convinces me.
mircea_popescu: as per that ancient "pi digits are also random, especially if you don't know what pi is" lemma.
BenBE: Multiple rings (3 or 5, would have to lookup in the VHDL file) are XOR'd together when sampling. Thus not one oscillator, but the XOR of different onces.
mircea_popescu: somewhat different.
mircea_popescu: BenBE who makes the fpga / toolchain ?
BenBE: In my case it's based on (Xilinx Spartan 6)
mircea_popescu: so you are trusting xilinx to actually do what it says ? and this with code that you can't audit ?
mircea_popescu: are you familiar with the thompson problem ?
BenBE: Trusting trust. Yes.
mircea_popescu: well, we don't trust xilinx for critical infreastructure for the ~same reason we don'tr trust windows.
BenBE: And I did not say I'd fully trust it --- far too little actual audit work done.
mircea_popescu: i don't know how you can audit a xilinx chip. but if you did, asciilifeform would definitely be interested in hearing.
mircea_popescu: last i heard he had enough of licking acids under the microscope.
BenBE: Any other FPGA should basically do: Original design was a CPLD. So you'd grab one FPGA you /can/ audit the toolchain for and compile the design for that FPGA. It's not too much code.
mircea_popescu: can you name the fpga i can both buy and audit ?
BenBE: Nope. I wish I could.
mircea_popescu: this doesn't sum up to all that much does it.
BenBE: Not quite :(
BenBE: It's a sad state related to hardware that we have.
mircea_popescu: FG is, importantly, an ~auditable~ rng. you can audit the thing, and if you do, i'd be very interested to hear the results.
mircea_popescu: BenBE well, while the state of hardware generally is very poor, due to tmsr dilligence this particular corner is actually solved, and so no, wrt rngs the state is fine.
mircea_popescu: how could my mileage vary ?
BenBE: In the way you rate this part solved. I'm not quite convinced here yet. Will need to evaluate the information.
BenBE: But that's nothing left for today.
mircea_popescu: yeah. put that evaluation in the stack though, i wanna hear what comes of it.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-09 14:45 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally, the more i think about it the more i'm convinced the ONLY "fingerprint" for rsa key may be... the modulus. 4096 bits and fuck you, if you can't take 32 chars you don't belong here.
a111: Logged on 2015-10-09 01:20 asciilifeform: the chore that everybody here has been putting off into indefinite future - that of ~actually distributing one's entire modulus~ - is a necessary thing.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-09 14:42 BenBE: Depending on the circles you worked in, you knew GnuPG is broken on several levels.
asciilifeform: << i am quite familiar with this design, and rejected it
a111: Logged on 2017-04-09 15:06 BenBE: With the WhirlyGig it's temperature-based modulation of ring oscillators.
asciilifeform: it is what intel's rdrand, via'd chips, etc use. tightly married to the vagaries of the fab process, and very difficult to tie to a specific physical effect
mircea_popescu: but didn't discuss it, and therefore i've not what to link.
asciilifeform: iirc we did
mircea_popescu: no, i'm aware what the problems are. just, absent a written form, im stuck going through the matter question&answer style.
mircea_popescu: but in the future will just link log.
mircea_popescu: imo came out particularly well.
a111: Logged on 2015-01-15 00:45 asciilifeform: (what rng? ring oscillator jitter, with sha1 whitening.)
Framedragger: i'm just teasing; i will consider setting up a topics-index page; something which is less formal than tickets; and a way to easily add new items by citing log line ranges. (old idea i know)
mircea_popescu: could work
Framedragger: (as the corpus of text expands, it becomes something like a fractal derrida and is heavier to manage in mind, at least in my mind)
mircea_popescu: im in no better position.
deedbot: << Trilema - Al-lolz, dot jpg.
BingoBoingo: AHA, "Al-Anon" is people not usually alcoholic themselves trying to live with drunks
mircea_popescu: oh it is ?
BingoBoingo: Yeah, founded by Bill W's wife to cope with "He stopped drinking, why am I still not the center of his universe"
shinohai: Because he got sober and realized what he had done!
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1519...5963 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' ( IT)
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1680...4539 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' ( IT)
deedbot: accepted: 1
trinque: ^ PSA: I'm looking at some kind of trb wallet bug which is reporting suffient balance, but insufficient when trying to send a tx
trinque: current bundle of deeds is blocked on that while I investigate
mircea_popescu: that sux
mircea_popescu: i have a good idea what you're running into : your balance is made up of "dust". can't send it.
trinque: looks like trb was not pleased with python's json.dumps() taking upon itself to use scientific notation after I changed fee and deed amounts.
trinque: txns are always deed amount + fee + refund rest back to same addy
trinque: should have the thing working again later today, and will back up current wallet for inspection
mircea_popescu: yes trinque ; but if a transaction is under arbitrary amount, it is arbitrarily "Dust" and can not be spent.
trinque: orly
trinque: ah yes totally relevant then
trinque: I reduced the deed amount to make room for moar fee
trinque: that this is reported as "insufficient funds"... mkaaay
mircea_popescu: this might even fix it, but it's not certain, given the festival of adhoc magic numbers trb is also known as.
pete_dushenski: shinohai: good catch! fxd :)
pete_dushenski: !~ticker
jhvh1: pete_dushenski: Bitfinex BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 1222.8, Best ask: 1224.4, Bid-ask spread: 1.60000, Last trade: 1223.6, 24 hour volume: 15946.33337183, 24 hour low: 1177.2, 24 hour high: 1226.9, 24 hour vwap: None
mod6: gl trinque !
deedbot: << Qntra - Tears Of The Great Again: Leftists Find, Exploit Trump's Weakness
BingoBoingo: ^ Oh Noes!!!
mircea_popescu: trinque incidentally the best solution probably is to do a sweep tx now and again (once a year or such ?) to aggregate all the inputs into one single output
deedbot: << Qntra - Islamic State Oppresses Minority Religion On Holy Feast Day
a111: Logged on 2017-04-09 02:53 asciilifeform: it ain't new, it is copy of 'athena' ( the thing found on old suns, that made their ui eye-clawing fugly and painful to navigate )
a111: Logged on 2017-04-08 21:20 phf: well, that's the thing, the original backend from clim2 goes all the way back to genera, and it's literally all solid 1-pixel lines, and bulk of the display is text.
phf: no, obviously not, that's mcclim
asciilifeform: yeah, liquishit
asciilifeform: the mcclim ui always makes me think of people
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 16:04 phf: i met fare at one of international lisp conference's and i thought he was kind of off, but the kind of work he did on asdf3 precisely corresponds to his personal and writing styles. sort of like a dirty kid that you have to constantly remind to like fucking go wash yourself dude, omg
asciilifeform: 'go fucking wash the whitegrey off yerself omfg'
phf: mcclim always reminds me of how rms was planning on competing with symbolics by reimplementing everything they had on top of gnu platform. that was the goal. only a handful people who actually worked with a genera realize how "special" the result of rms's work was.
phf: mcclim's grey athena widget is from-cave attempt at "industry standard" echo of an echo
shinohai: ty pete_dushenski - cheers! o/
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: why exactly did everyone in the golden lisp era feel such a burning need to compete with each other anyway ?
mircea_popescu: i mean rms, i understand, stray dog mit took in, he'd bark at st peter if st peter came by. but the rest of 'em ?
BingoBoingo: ty shinohai
deedbot: << Qntra - Dallas Storm/Raid Sirens Pose Interesting Ransomware Potential
mircea_popescu: "The attacker was able to turn the sirens back on 15 times in a 90 minute period" lmao
mircea_popescu: what exactly is the "oh, must be local" rationale besides "we are retarded and so therefore things follow"
shinohai: I assume, since they contacted FCC, the system operates on some sort of radio frequency. Officials are "tight-lipped" lol
mircea_popescu: "celebrating "Palm Sunday", a feast marking their holy tradesman's triumphant return to Jerusalem days before the holy tradesman was martyred by combined Italian and Jewish police violence." << epic.
mircea_popescu: shinohai is "tight-lipped" how you say "box of hammers" this millennium ?
shinohai: Gotta learn that variety speak!
mircea_popescu: apparently.
shinohai: Would be lulzy if it was the same guy who fucked with all their traffic lights last year.
asciilifeform: << gnu's confinement ( from poverty ) to 'commodity' (i.e. unix) hardware was a forced 'exile from eden' and the derp response is to postulate 'we're JUST AS GOOD, US TOO!1111' etc.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-09 21:17 mircea_popescu: why exactly did everyone in the golden lisp era feel such a burning need to compete with each other anyway ?
asciilifeform: the other idiocies follow from 'we can make roman aqueduct in empty field, and with 0 book-larnin', and it will be Just As Good'.
mircea_popescu: yes, though i'm not particularily interested in stallman's moth-eaten brain.
asciilifeform: most of the subj of thread is post-rms.
mircea_popescu: there were what, 5 different wanna-be symbolix corps ? commercial lisps ? etc.
mircea_popescu: what sense did any engineer imagine this will make ?
asciilifeform: iirc there were 3 mit licensees
asciilifeform: symbolics, lmi, and ti
mircea_popescu: seems a lot of retarded one-man-ism that gave the world 5k "airplane inventors" and just as many canvas-made planes that didn't work worth a shit.
asciilifeform: (strangely, even though ti was a megacorp already at the time, their offering was the least memorable)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the question of "why the fuck would anyone even bother with a mit '''license''' we'll leave for some other time".
asciilifeform: describe the hypothetical 'not bothering'
asciilifeform: thing was several thou. man-years of gnarly work, it was not repeatable in a garage.
asciilifeform: (work on multi$million handmade machines, also, not on commodity iron)
asciilifeform: in fact the piss ui from this thread, clim, franz lisp, whole shebang of barbarian yurts decorated with smashed roman mosaic, were results of later attempt to 'repeat in garage' regardless
mircea_popescu: mit never had a thousand man-years of work, in its entire history to date, counting all the departments.
asciilifeform: ai lab strictly.
asciilifeform: it was the beginning and immediately the end of the 'interesting' mit.
mircea_popescu: right. and if it were an actual man-year of work it'd be a wonder.
mircea_popescu: ie, a dozen people "worked" in the us sense for 18 months.
mircea_popescu: blow me away.
asciilifeform: i read the released cadr schematics. and the source. it was genuinely 1000+ man-year of genuine work.
asciilifeform: ever built wire-wrap anything ? picture ten tonnes of it.
asciilifeform: and quite reasonably minimal, even.
mircea_popescu: this argument will not prevail, because again, mit never paid that many hours.
asciilifeform: most of the hours were worked unpaid, by slaves.
mircea_popescu: mit also never had this many useful slaves.
asciilifeform: again it wasn't 'mit', it was 'mit's ai lab', wholly - at the time - unique assemblage.
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu already postulated a conclusion in his head, and doesn't actually give half a fuck about facts, i will not bother with this thread.
asciilifeform: 1970s mit ai lab != modern mit
asciilifeform: just as 1850s usg ain't today's.
mircea_popescu: and the problem of "slaves" and "work" is very interestingly repeating. so : if you count all the receptionists in the "work" you're getting an obviously diluted figure. if this is were how work worked, i could build spaceship by hiring 1mn chickens/hair stylists in argentina. evidently, argentina isn't building any spaceships.
asciilifeform: 0 receptionists. it was this club where they let the brightest undergrads burn their lives for 0 pay to build interesting hw.
mircea_popescu: slaves, idem. if you couint every nigger at mit, derping about "we're one, man" and "i should have money anyway" then yes you get the figures, but if you count THAT as slavery god help youi.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this item did not physically exist.
mircea_popescu: dozen people eighteen months. thatssit. where's the 500 undergrads ~actually~ working for decades ?
asciilifeform: decade.
asciilifeform: at the ai lab.
mircea_popescu: you seen the premises ? not physically possible to host 100 people working there, let alone 500 wtf.
asciilifeform: most of the heavy lifting was done by a dozen or so people, however. (david moon, richard greenblatt, tom knight, buncha smaller ones )
mircea_popescu: dozenpeopleeighteenmonths!!!
phf: asciilifeform: clim fwiw predates micro exodus. was, like common lisp, an attempt by the three vendors to make a unified gui foundation. you can still see scarring in genera where they started transitioning to clim apps from their flavors
mircea_popescu: NOW -- the question is why did this fucktarded dozen decide the best thing to do is make 3-6-howevermany "Competing" entitite.s
phf: actually that's the same (i assume rhetorical) question rms was asking
asciilifeform: iirc rms really hated noftsker, for some reason
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> (strangely, even though ti was a megacorp already at the time, their offering was the least memorable) << No mystery. They were likely operating from an internal assumption of leadership and thus snore.
mircea_popescu: mno. his question was "why do these 12 people not see the glory of socialism and dedicate their lives to making every receptionist live in luxury she can't pay for"
mircea_popescu: why such rotten bullshit would get a flat no in return is directly obvious.
asciilifeform: ( iirc it was because he went 'let us have our king from among our ~own~ number, why this imported viking lord ' )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this was pre-gnu rms, as far as is known -- apolitical
phf: hmm, i always thought his question was a lot more naively childish "why'd did all my friends i had fun with left to do these weird `grownup` things"
mircea_popescu: the notion that there can be an apolitical something is like the notion that there can be a transparent non menstruating woman etc.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: rms naively believed (but afaik -- genuinely believed) that one can separate the cutlets from the flies.
mircea_popescu: phf of course childish. socialism. that's what it is.
asciilifeform: i.e. the experimenters from the receptionists.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i expect rms did no such thing ; but that he correctly believed that if structured as ~radical~ socialism, socialism may be made to appear palatable to intelligent people ; at any rate more so than the commodified variant.
mircea_popescu: hence all his imbecillities with "log scale for music payments by downloads" and whatnot other respectable sovietisms.
asciilifeform: i have nfi, but must point out that this time was prior to him having written down any such thing.
mircea_popescu: she's still a woman even at a time prior to having foaled.
asciilifeform: and pre- him receiving the socialist prizes etc. pre-gnu.
asciilifeform: he was just another d00d in those times.
mircea_popescu: i don't think there is any such thing.
mircea_popescu: i also do not think one can become a socialist. they're all born this way. it's braindamage, basically.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> "celebrating "Palm Sunday", a feast marking their holy tradesman's triumphant return to Jerusalem days before the holy tradesman was martyred by combined Italian and Jewish police violence." << epic. << Updated, forgot to insert relevant link to earlier qntra <mircea_popescu> "celebrating "Palm Sunday", a feast marking their holy tradesman's triumphant return to Jerusalem days before the holy tradesman was martyred by co
BingoBoingo: mbined Italian and Jewish police violence." << epic.
asciilifeform: i don't buy this 'was always a trotskyist, from baby' thing. not everyone is born in his particular mental dead end.
mircea_popescu: all kids appear healthy, but the brains of a precious few are deffective, and as aging exposes them to the challenge of correct diversification, it turns out they ~were all along~ schizophrenic.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i currently find the notion persuasive. jane and jennifer are both interchangeable as 3 yos, but as they progress to age 23 it becomes apparent jeniffer jsut never had the tits in her.
mircea_popescu: and so... she's... you know, "modest".
mircea_popescu: and has "morals".
mircea_popescu: and all the rest of the bullshit.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu never met a 'modest'+tits ?
mircea_popescu: because if i make them strip, jane's DD look better than jen's A-
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform shellshocked, yes.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: y'know those 20 ft chainsaws for trees ? i was using one, it sucked, chain slipped maybe 5 times in 1 hr. are there such thing as decent one of these ?
asciilifeform: or do my hands simply grow from arse ? or ?
mircea_popescu: (ie, little jane stuck too early with too much male attention she doesn't know how to handle (in no small part because her mom's a retarded jen and had not the sense ot have sisters etc) will grow defensive. but it's to my eyes rather a different strand. quite evidently so : she's immodest in private.)
mircea_popescu: anyway, to take the thing back to rms and friends : socialism is not a political choice, it's a psychological defense. it expresses itself in fundamentally defective individuals. tis what it is.
asciilifeform: is this observation or postulation ?
mircea_popescu: it's my current mental model.
asciilifeform: could just as easily say 'left-handedness expresses itself in fundamentally defective individuals'
mircea_popescu: now, obviously other than the people who ~are made of~ shit, you can also have people covered in shit. these, however, can wash. even if they're not necessarily distinguishable on superficial examination -- put the firehose on them and you'll presently find out.
mircea_popescu: which'd be ~why~ specific republican artefacts (above approximated as firehose) result in the "educational split" so to speak.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform could, yes.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: The usual solution among people who get paid to do that work is smaller chainsaw plus climbing
mircea_popescu: but more appropriately i think you could say "cowardice expresses itself in fundamentally defective individuals, as well as in those who spend too much time in cowards' company".
BingoBoingo: If there is problem it could be you need to adjust chain tension again after saw warms up
BingoBoingo: Chainsaws usually come with scwrench for a reason
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: distinguish, for my education, 'socialism', from how the spartans lived.
asciilifeform: (they -- also -- 'cowardice' ? )
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Another solution may be to inquire at power equipment rental outfit and find setup from one of the orange brands (echo, stihl) to use for a day or two until branches restored to sanity.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: this was borrowed tool. if i'm gonna spend $, may as well hire gardeners.
BingoBoingo: Well, that is an option to deal with branches at height.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform socialism is the proposal that the problems of individuals will be addressed by the group. the spartans made no allowance for the problems of individuals.
BingoBoingo: "Arborist" above 8 feet would usually either come with bucket lift truck or climbing gear and small (10-14 inch bar) saw.
mircea_popescu: they were interested in resolving the problems of the group, mostly in the shape of not getting wiped by the parthians.
asciilifeform: you could redefine this, if you wanted , as 'problem of individual'
mircea_popescu: but anyway, thinking about it, it'd seem to me the only possible explanation of is that the golden dozen lacked ~any conception whatsoever~ of the enmity of mit. like dodo birds, went happily to the necessary eventual slaugther because failed ot perceive usg must be destroyed not ignored. in a field arbitrarily (and perhaps not exactly accidentally) limited in this manner, they cultiv
a111: Logged on 2017-04-09 22:04 mircea_popescu: NOW -- the question is why did this fucktarded dozen decide the best thing to do is make 3-6-howevermany "Competing" entitite.s
mircea_popescu: ated their own aesthetic notions of "competition" among themselves, instead of setting boston on fire.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but you couldn't find petition introduced by hoplite because "life's too hard and i want an ipad".
mircea_popescu: how the fuck they managed to think mit is anything but ~the only thing they must destroy~ is beyond me however. seriously, how the fuck does that work.
asciilifeform: pretty sure that, e.g., d. moon, saw 'finally we take this tech private, make an honest corp' as breaking off from mit
asciilifeform: and whatever socialisms dwelled there
mircea_popescu: possibly. why didn't it sell with the rest ?
asciilifeform: i'm speaking of symbolics co
mircea_popescu: bitcoin-assets split sold with the rest. why didn't moon's corp ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes. why didn't everyone follow ? moon was eminently followable.
asciilifeform: why there was >1 power in 16th c italy. why not everyone simply in florence, lol.
asciilifeform: knight (inventor of the machine, and designer/hand-builder of almost all of the early iron) was also 'followable', he ended up at lmi.
mircea_popescu: so why the split ?
mircea_popescu: why didn't moon follow knight, then. wtf is going on.
asciilifeform: symbolics co. was actually illustration of mircea_popescu's essay re the hanna barbara cartoon thing
asciilifeform: what was the d00d's name
mircea_popescu has serious trouble digesting this chunk of history.
asciilifeform: the one who said 'i could sell equally this, or canned fish'
mircea_popescu: !~google fred quimby
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Fred Quimby - Wikipedia: <>; Fred Quimby - IMDb: <>; Was Chuck Jones better for Tom & Jerry than Fred Quimby ...: <>
mircea_popescu: so your proposition is that engineers are cursed by the gods in that they can't follow each other, gotta follow a different kinda guy and if they don't get lucky to find one will just symbolics all over the place ?
mircea_popescu: why the fuck, what, brains dun work ?
asciilifeform: not that noftsker, afaik, was a quimby. but lmi's greenblatt, it seems, was an 'anti-quimby'
mircea_popescu: amusingly, apparently everyone there knew this, too. "he's no captain, he's just a dude with a small penis who figures the world owns him reparations for it, so captaining will work by itself"
asciilifeform: the reality, even if mircea_popescu doesn't subscribe to it, is that there may very well be more than two types of people alive, and not simply ubermenschen (exact clones of mircea_popescu , presumably ) and untermenschen ('socialists' or anyone who substantially differs psychologically from mircea_popescu )
asciilifeform: may not even be (horror!) coded by penii
mircea_popescu: but anyway, leaving this hot coal for a moment -- why the everloving fuck did it take them so long to lose virginity! yes, EVENTUALLY moon "finally we take this tech private". but how fucking unobvious can it be that mit is exactly the equivalent of hymen, there to insulate girl from control of her own cunt ?
mircea_popescu: ~any 16 yo figures out her chief order of business is trashing the damend thing, why's it take moon 50 years ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i dun think teh theory ever went in the vein of "ubermenschen (exact clones of mircea_popescu , presumably ) and untermenschen ('socialists' or anyone who substantially differs psychologically from mircea_popescu )" eh ?
asciilifeform: the lispm was a quite audacious and expensive project, and very difficult to justify commercially without at least a set of functioning machines and well-developed soft
mircea_popescu: why do you have to "justify it commercially".
asciilifeform: to get investment ?
mircea_popescu: what next, i can't justify my saturday night guest list ~matrimonially~ ?
asciilifeform: from where was the money to come ?
mircea_popescu: i dun know why you think this is how things work, but allow me to reference a relevant bit of history :
mircea_popescu: is it transparent or should i translate ?
asciilifeform: either translate, or summarize ?
mircea_popescu: golden age of bitcoin forum invesmtnets, dude did horribly poorly ~on investor's money~.
mircea_popescu: how did the investment come considewring there wasn't anythning there besides "we'll try to win on execution without a clue or a GED, against people with money and significant entrenchment" ?
mircea_popescu: fuck, HOW is airbnb supposed to be worth 50 bux ? it consists of... nothing.
mircea_popescu: groupon, its exact clone 5 years ago, meanwhile imploded. where did the billions come to make ~that~ particular iteration of nothing whatsoever into "biggest ipo ever!11"
mircea_popescu: investment is entirely divorced from this "justifying commercially" business.
asciilifeform: you are comparing bezzletrons, that run on pixie dust, to hw makers , who ran on 100% turkey dollar ?
mircea_popescu: this is not exactly correct, which is why i linked the article i linked.
asciilifeform: pixie dust dun buy megatonne of ic. not today, not then.
mircea_popescu: no bezzle went into that nonsense.
shinohai: <<< lulzy, but being mealy-mouth krebs writeup I couldn't Qntra it.
mircea_popescu: still, it collected thousands of btc.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i thought symbolics was mostly hand made originally.
asciilifeform: and mmm collected billion $ .
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform see ? where did THE INVESTMENT!111 come from!
asciilifeform: from bamboozling large crowd of derps with slightly more money than sense each ?
asciilifeform: yes, some folx are friends with chumpatronicist, or bank robber (stalin et al), who will give them a little dough out of whatever private reason of his own.
mircea_popescu: market is not weighing machine to start with. it gets there, but it starts as something else. derping about "justifying commercially" is the EXACT equivalent of not talking to girl for nerd reasons.
asciilifeform: funnily enough lmi, after bankruptcy, was bought by one such
a111: Logged on 2017-04-09 22:37 mircea_popescu: ~any 16 yo figures out her chief order of business is trashing the damend thing, why's it take moon 50 years ?
asciilifeform: he took its remains to canada, and bamboozled their government for years, pretending to make 'french translator machine'
asciilifeform: it ended with jail for the 'genius', and junkyard for the iron. all of it.
mircea_popescu: let me retell the history of early computing.
phf: mircea_popescu: i think people in question weren't even thinking in terms asciilifeform is using. they are all deep academia, without external guiding force thye end up recreating windows interface 10 years too late.
mircea_popescu: 1. a dozen mentally retarded girls were afraid of their own cunts ; 2. so much so as to need to be 50 before they'd finally deflower ; 3. except they did it in such a manner as to replace the insulatory function of that with various other ersatz-hymens created out of material collected in the environment ; 4 but because they were mentally retarded no possiblity of meaningful communication was open to them and so 5. therefore
mircea_popescu: they all ended up with random substitute hymens and that's the last time anyone heard of any of them.
mircea_popescu: phf i saw this too, but what's irking me is WHY.
asciilifeform: phf: i was offering to mircea_popescu that not everyone is born to walk around robbing banks to fund hardware manufacture, or 'burning boston' to extirpate 'socialism', some folks were born to theorems. but mircea_popescu won't have it -- either banks, and burning, or untermenschen, apparently.
mircea_popescu: im not sure that's even discussed, here. what theorems are involved in handmaking symbolics gear
asciilifeform: pretty sure that by the time there was a symbolics -- the handmaking was outsourced.
mircea_popescu: pre-symbolics gear.
phf: pre-symbolics the "theorems" were "how do i computer" in general. those guys weren't playing around with custom fpga in their garage that they failed to sell. they were basically figuring out how to build a von neumann machine that can do things, which they did
mircea_popescu: anyway, in the above retelling, the 4->5 transition is the coup the grace. they couldn't "follow" each other ~because~, in this view, they were bereft of sufficient bandwith to in any sense communicate. so they couldn't, like, end up with all the same one substitute cuntcap.
mircea_popescu: phf this part is fine. now, why did they fail to a) band togetgher and b) control, deliberately, the product.
asciilifeform: then, quite unlike now, new type of comp had to be made by hand from ttl chips -- few gates each; and connected with semi-reliable wrap wiring. it was quite impossible to offload this to 'brute labour', you had to intimately understand how the thing works in order to debug in any way.
mircea_popescu: they did a very strict anti-a and anti-b. why
mircea_popescu: the only reason mit even exists in this picture is because the dozen was "omfg, we DID figure it out, now quick, find someone TO PROTECT US FROM OUR HAVING FIGURED IT OUT!!1"
mircea_popescu: holy shit who thinks like this and why do they.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: my understanding was that greenblatt and noftsker had serious disagreement re how to actually do business. (noftsker favoured external capital, and founded the -- temporarily -- successful symbolics co; greenblatt -- the very soon dead lmi, and believed in 'lift by bootstraps', no external capital.)
phf: jealous wizards, i thought that was an archetype.
mircea_popescu: for crying out loud.
asciilifeform: ti corp was not even part of this game, they did not hire -- afaik -- any of the original designers.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and the rest just happened to fall into s or lmi randomly as the wind blew ?
asciilifeform: not knowing any of them in person, i cannot say why some went with one, and others -- other, and third -- with no one, and into the void. presumably agreed with n, or g, or neither.
asciilifeform: 'i do not know' != 'randomly'.
mircea_popescu: this equality doesn't hold. it's not a matter "we don't know". we know what the environment constraints are, and we do not care what their internal processing is. if they fail to act rationally they did it randomly.
mircea_popescu: but anyway, leaving this hot coal for a while also, consider THE FUCKING INDIGNITY. you're telling me the dozen was split up by a convenient application of... a socialist marote ? same thing sunk lisp as the international ?!
mircea_popescu: this fills no one with indignation but me ?
asciilifeform: if 'act rationally' somehow means 'pick a fuhrer! use haruspex if you gotta!' then none of them 'acted rationally', no.
mircea_popescu: it's on the level of "great monk died - syphilis". come da fuck on. have better problems!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in the circumstance ? this isn't a given iyo ?
mircea_popescu: the time for "debates" is when you're installed in power and are preparing to withdraw the power from the plebs. you create a trappings-of-power artefact through the magical working of dialectics, heap it upon them in exchange for the actual thing and move on. that's when you do "disputes".
mircea_popescu: when you're the only twelve guys on monkey island you don't fucking disagree. because there's nothing to disagree ~about~. because there can't be.
asciilifeform: there is such a thing as an actual dispute.
mircea_popescu: because monkeys. i dunno, seems likew i;'m repeating myself.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform give me an example.
asciilifeform: let's say for sake of argument that greenblatt was 'the true king.' he had no mechanism for somehow forcing the others to come along.
asciilifeform: so off he went, with subset of the possible participants.
asciilifeform: the rest -- with someone else.
mircea_popescu: except for them being not fucking stupid.
mircea_popescu: the mechanism is -- them not being fucking stupid.
asciilifeform: even 40+ yrs later, and to quasi-serious student of the subject, imho it is not clear who -- if anyone -- was 'true king'.
mircea_popescu: why is this important ?
asciilifeform: what, exactly, were -- in mircea_popescu's view -- these people 'fucking stupid' for having not done ?
phf: asciilifeform: true king is a later invention, actual process is "choose king amongst yourself", and failure to do so is stupidity
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform indulge me for a moment here. so, would you agree that a specific and specified problem (make a computer!) was actually resolved by a number of people ?
asciilifeform: i don't actually see it as resolved, even today.
asciilifeform: attempted - yes. resolved - no.
mircea_popescu: so you don't particularily want symbolix metal, it\s just some random thing.
asciilifeform: not random, no.
mircea_popescu: then gimme something.
asciilifeform: picture if we had no jet turbine.
mircea_popescu: so then why do you deny ?
asciilifeform: say it was tried in ww2, and then not again.
asciilifeform: bolix box would then be me262.
asciilifeform: fairly primitive, early attempt, but -- not continued.
mircea_popescu: you'll have to pick a door (for the needs of this conversation only)
asciilifeform: me262 had quite serious problems, from practical pov.
asciilifeform: the analogy is not a whim of asciilifeform's, it is quite exact -- what bolix et al did, was a 'stretch' of the tech of the time, quite near its breaking point
asciilifeform: the trouble is that this is how tech actually advances
mircea_popescu: look, there's no crevice here to slither into. either you grant "they did" or else you admit they didn't do anything. pick one.
asciilifeform: early steamboats were expensive deathtraps (boiler explosions were still a quite familiar thing in mark twain's time, even)
asciilifeform: this dichotomy is a hallucination of mircea_popescu's , and i ain't buying.
mircea_popescu: aite, then i guess it can't epxlained what the people invovled were stupid for having not done.
asciilifeform: they took a serious technological risk - and lost, like dirigible; rather than won, like steamboat.
mircea_popescu: you will note however that ~all communication~ rests on hallucination in the sense here contemplated. and we're right back to 4->5.
phf: there's only one computer asciilifeform acknowledges as "resolved", and that's the computer built by asciilifeform. i suspect similar dynamic was at the root of smbx/lmi
asciilifeform: phf: a bolix-style machine that -- hypothetically - could have cost-competed with the 'i can't believe it's not butter' state of the art, would imho count as 'resolve'
mircea_popescu: phf im starting to understand the problem though. here it is : engineer will not consider inconvenient problems. NO MATTER WHAT. that is why he's an engineer : because paradigm made him a personal promise.
mircea_popescu: it\s a sort of elective jewry.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is quite impossible to 'unconsider inconvenient problem' in a thread about bolix
mircea_popescu: you just did.
asciilifeform: which is in a way a parable re engineers going to the bottom of the sea
asciilifeform: my contention is simply that they failed to ~resolve~ their problem , in the sense of achieving item#2 from my essay
mircea_popescu: but that is not the sense contemplated in context.
asciilifeform: because -- cost.
asciilifeform: let's have expansion re the sense contempated by mircea_popescu then
asciilifeform: possibly i'm thick
mircea_popescu: im not capable nor interested in specifying. fact remains - a dozen dudes either did something ro didn't do something. if they did something we can discuss the history of the thing they did and what it says about them ; otherwise, we can not.
mircea_popescu: and no, it's not an ~exact~ dozen, either.
asciilifeform: they built something quite like a proper comp.
asciilifeform: but were unable to build it economically.
mircea_popescu: alright, so then let's continue from there.
asciilifeform: or live long enough on 'credit card' to live to see the cheap-enough transistor.
asciilifeform: (they eventually resorted to 'credit card' and ended up simply making a titanic black hole for entire ~industry~ to fall into, when it finally imploded)
mircea_popescu: at the time they did this, the world split. there were the people who built the "something quite like a proper comp", on one side. there were the people who did not so build, on the other side. you see this ?
mircea_popescu: crossed this line -> stupid.
asciilifeform: what means to cross this line ?
mircea_popescu: well, on top of a world ontologically constituted as "12 men on monkey island" attempting to construct alternate world hallucinatorily constituted as "men and money teams compete for island special olympics".
asciilifeform: the monkeys, as discussed in old thread, could easily win, if there is not enough for men to eat on the island.
mircea_popescu: "who do you think will win, mr 13, the team with two guys and monkeys or the team with three guys and monkeys ?"
mircea_popescu: "i think the whole charade is a sickening display, personally."
asciilifeform: which imho is what happened. environment could not sustain the man.
mircea_popescu: who starved ?
mircea_popescu: other than rms.
asciilifeform: nobody starved, but the lispm was abandoned, the way moon rocket was.
mircea_popescu: because yes the monkeys could win if not enough to eat, BUT you know this because there's 12 starved men.
asciilifeform: as a 'neato but sorry, -ev' item.
mircea_popescu: notrly how this works.
asciilifeform: and when the necessary transistors were finally ~free, they went to tlb cache instead so that winblowz could run 5% faster.
mircea_popescu: but yes i'm aware not being stupid results in a deary lack of monkey island special olympics participation trophies.
asciilifeform: who exactly, in mircea_popescu's model, are the monkeys ?
mircea_popescu: everyone else.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ^
mircea_popescu: perelman says so!
trinque: dunno what's hard about the notion that look, you do not get computers until you have both the leadership category and engineering category maxed on your character
asciilifeform currently brain-melting over the total and airtight lack of any public data re beta-luminescence of lanthanide-strontium aluminate vs metal-doped zinc sulphide
trinque: and that the folks that "tried" in the first round lost because of deficiency of character
asciilifeform: *lanthanide-doped
asciilifeform: i've been looking for weeks. 0 result.
asciilifeform: trinque: one possibility was 'too many chiefs, not enough indians' (tm)
asciilifeform: which is sorta opposite, as i understand, to your hypothesis
mircea_popescu: i didn't perceive this cheifdom in the chief characters. mebbe my antennae too blunt, but who ? how ?
asciilifeform: self-perceived, this chiefdom.
asciilifeform: greenblatt thought he could lead. etc
mircea_popescu: but he was more or less irrelevant. moon, knight etc.
mircea_popescu: anyway, imo the principal point of the discussion is that knowledge, any knowledge, enacts a partition upon the world. this is the only difference - chucka and man are distinguished not by skin color, not by anything else but the overpowering fact that chuka doesn't know what to do with the rtg ; or with pushkin ; or with etcetera.
mircea_popescu: disconsidering this fundamental in any manner opens the chasm of hell, in all its presentation from evil to insanity.
asciilifeform: so far i follow the logic..
phf: chukcha brings his novel to a su publishing dept. the editor reads it and goes "you know, you ought to read some classics, pushkin, turgenev, etc." chukcha goes "naw, chukcha is a writer, not a reader"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's realy no more to it.
mircea_popescu: but as a side point : i went to town yest, bought jug of milk. guy kept trying to warn me it's not milk! i bought it anyway. it is FABULOUS buttermilk. best i ever had. also got a strong sheep cheese and a mellower one. i am happy like i've not been in a long time - finally, food! like god at home made it!
mircea_popescu: long have i sought the native foods of my land, and never have i found them before,
mircea_popescu: i tell you people - do not live with the plainsdwellers, for they are retarded and eat shit.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu did not encounter all of this on his last run of CR ?
mircea_popescu: that was 10 years ago.
asciilifeform: they had not yet learned to make cheese then ?
mircea_popescu: i evidently wasn't in the right place.
asciilifeform: iirc mircea_popescu was by the sea then
mircea_popescu: in fairness, i also wasn't nearly as much of a lord a decade ago.
shinohai: <<< Hope it was much better cheese than the floating in ice, triple-wrapped variety from a few days previous.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-10 01:05 mircea_popescu: but as a side point : i went to town yest, bought jug of milk. guy kept trying to warn me it's not milk! i bought it anyway. it is FABULOUS buttermilk. best i ever had. also got a strong sheep cheese and a mellower one. i am happy like i've not been in a long time - finally, food! like god at home made it!
mircea_popescu: anyway, today watched sunset by the pool, with dog and woman. dog is a friendly pitbull, woman has nice tits. there could be worse fates.
mircea_popescu: shinohai much better.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform cheese, in fairness, is very much like dealing with fromphuctors. gotta have lots of patience for duds.
shinohai: Cheese is art.
asciilifeform: now this, is so.
asciilifeform spends moar on cheese than typical homo redditicus does on rent. with quite variable results, in these savage lands.
phf: there's a benedictine monastery in bangalore where make italian style cheese. considering how bad cheese is otherwise in the country, i'm contemplating making a pilgrimage to bangalore just to see how they do, next time i'm there
shinohai: I have no nearby monasteries unfortunately .... there is a farm in this little place called Ellijay nearby that makes decent goat cheese.
shinohai mmmmm, chèvre
BingoBoingo: From here good cheese involves inconvenient drive to Wisconsin
mircea_popescu is more than willing to share his dollar-a-lb bounty with l1 all-comers. i also made myself fruit salad out of [actually ripe] mango, [actually ripe] pineapple, [actually ripe] banmanas, drenched in fresh oj etc.
mircea_popescu: gallon bowl, went in one evening.
shinohai: You can always opt for the other udder cheese in your neck of the woods, BingoBoingo
BingoBoingo however has planted what should yield and incredible and constant variety of tomatoes until this fall's first frost.
mircea_popescu: tomatoes go well with soft cheese...
BingoBoingo: Tomatoes also go well eated whole like an apple so long as consumed no further than 100 feet from the vine
shinohai has only planted radishes and cucumbers, has shitty soil in new locale.
BingoBoingo: Have planted Black Krim, Cherokee x Carbon heirloom cross, Juliet Roma x Grape cross, Obligatory yellow cultivar, Beefmaster hybrid, and obligatory cherry tomatoe cultivar
BingoBoingo: * shinohai has only planted radishes and cucumbers, has shitty soil in new locale. << Protip: till a plot and sow densly with turnips/radishes. Do not harvest and burn down with glyphosate before first frost. Till vastly improved soil next year.
shinohai: Thx BingoBoingo will note protip
shinohai: Whoreticulture!
mircea_popescu: beans / lentils prolly work better for same purpose.
shinohai: But then I'd *really* want to eat the tasty lentils
BingoBoingo: Technique can be adapted to the lawn. Sub tilling with overseeding root crops, and instead of glyphosate burn down with 2,4-D and substitute last tilling with patience
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> beans / lentils prolly work better for same purpose. << Clover works well too. Assuming shinohai's climate is too hot to get big legumes going
mircea_popescu: shinohai most of the legume soil improvement happens through the root anyway
mircea_popescu: they fix Ncompounds
shinohai: There are only two seasons in Georgia, slightly chilly and sweltering, humid summer
mircea_popescu: why did i think you liverd in like, southern spain
BingoBoingo: <shinohai> There are only two seasons in Georgia, slightly chilly and sweltering, humid summer << Too cold for citrus, too hot for legumes and cole crops
BingoBoingo: Unless you like Collared greens
BingoBoingo: Or at least that is my vague impression.
shinohai: No thanks to Spain, I can't be running of Moors from my garden all day.
BingoBoingo: Maybe yall sow your spinach in December?
shinohai: I've never tried personally. The woods behind my house however are chock full of Phytolacca decandra.
shinohai: Better known locally as "Poke Salad"
BingoBoingo: Also that shit is incredibly poisonous
shinohai: Older folks go nuts over the shit here though, eat it like spinach.
shinohai: With fatback, even.
BingoBoingo: After substantial effort to boil out the poisons. Ain't nobody got time for that.
shinohai: To me, just easier to grow damned spinach
shinohai: In other locations to plant cucumbers:
BingoBoingo: That looks like a zucchini
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