Hide Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2016-11-14 | 2016-11-16 → ↓
asciilifeform: protest 'unthinkable' dissent from the 'consensus' of the beetle-men who, it turns out, really won in '45.
asciilifeform: (the folx with souls, or equiv. -- mostly killed one another. leaving -- this.)
asciilifeform: and they hate, yes, even music, in so far as it pertains to the non-beetles, rather how proverbial vampire hates the crucifix
ben_vulpes is pleased that coors is now the republican "murkka beer"
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: what's murkka beer ?
ben_vulpes: "america"
asciilifeform: the pisswater that is not even distinguishable in the piss tank from the input ?
ben_vulpes: well it's /fermented/ on the downstream side
ben_vulpes: but no, "coors" is the pisswater, "murkka" is the place.
asciilifeform: i have nfi what is the appeal.
asciilifeform: at least the rotgut from BingoBoingo's 'night train' article, is cheap road to complete catatonia
asciilifeform: (he might be interested to learn that very similar beverages existed in su)
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Would not be surprised at all. These things find a way.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: http://agriculture.by/upload/News/144102_31-vino.jpg << they still exist in belorus. with marks like 'merry carousel'..
BingoBoingo: I doubt they will ever cease to exist.
asciilifeform: these typically were made by admixture of 3rd rate fruit juices (sometimes spoiled) and ethyl.
asciilifeform: ( naturally i did not live long enough to drink these, know of them mainly from memoirs of folks from past 2 generations )
BingoBoingo: Just like night train/thunderbird/et al. They are a societally necessary sort of thing.
BingoBoingo: !!up the_scourge
deedbot: the_scourge voiced for 30 minutes.
BingoBoingo: the_scourge: What did you get pinched for?
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/3CFFFB47C333728371427FE2CB20F1E5699D1AB4181C86C19BDC93D9CC580856 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 10360675149891496696743993074038515514679184692657560451481201750238139845648139005675108913997292011349770797364446313354371937302222251376246656792243397 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '74.45.231.226 (ssh-rsa key from 74.45.231.226 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on
mircea_popescu: goood mornin' phuctor lol
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/3CFFFB47C333728371427FE2CB20F1E5699D1AB4181C86C19BDC93D9CC580856 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 10360675149891496696743993074038515514679184692657560451481201750238139845648139005675108913997292011349770797364446313354371937302222251376246656792243397 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '74.45.231.226 (ssh-rsa key from 74.45.231.226 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/E398AB2D76701B47540512A265F39492F768F68C2ABFFAF708B52A5F1FCEA627 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 10360675149891496696743993074038515514679184692657560451481201750238139845648139005675108913997292011349770797364446313354371937302222251376246656792243397 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '74.45.228.223 (ssh-rsa key from 74.45.228.223 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on
mircea_popescu: hm. repeated.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2016/theyre-not-progressive-theyre-just-lazy-a-practical-exercise/ << Trilema - They're not progressive, they're just lazy - a practical exercise
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i still have nfi why deedbot repeats'em, the rss page itself, notice, never repeats.
mod6: mornin'
asciilifeform: mornin' mod6
mircea_popescu: must be some confusion
asciilifeform: i vaguely recall that there was a hypothesis, but unable to find it in the logz
mircea_popescu: incidentally, anyone bothered to gather all these factored ssh keys, reconstruct their privkeys, and then try connect to the whole internet using it ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i thought we went over this
asciilifeform: breaking these ssh keys doesn't get you in anywhere
mircea_popescu: how do you know this ?
asciilifeform: only lets you eavesdrop
mircea_popescu: again - how do you know this ?
mircea_popescu: yes, obviously, you can now mitm whoever tries to connect to compromised box. HOWEVER there's no rule that someone coouldn't have made one of these boxes admins on other boxes.
asciilifeform: aite, somewhere, there could be a maniac who configured his box for ssh ~login~ , and with same key as some such in phuctor.
mircea_popescu: could be ? my dear alf, i'm willing to bet there is, on the strength of experience to date.
Framedragger: can you even use an ssh server key as ssh client key (and yes i agree if it's easy to do, someone will have done it)
asciilifeform: Framedragger: it is ~possible~ to use 0000...0 as ssh key..
mircea_popescu: a key's a key, there's no "server key" as such.
mircea_popescu: ie, generate key on server, have it spit out the priv/pub pair, register it into another server, done.
Framedragger: i mean in practical terms, of course, theoretically, but as in, would a canonical ssh agent eat it up
asciilifeform: i presently know of no system that ships with remote-login-with-key-auth enabled by default. does not mean that there isn't such a thing.
mircea_popescu has this morning looked into cpanel, it would seem you can do this trivally.
Framedragger: well for one ssh client keys normally have an email/ID associated with them, not sure if ssh agent would like an ssh server key. in theory, yes, sure
Framedragger: hm. worth a try for sure.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger 1. open cpanel session 2. generate ssh key 3. export it 4. import it into another. see a connect to b.
Framedragger: okey dokey. point taken
mircea_popescu: now, whether anyone has actually done this who's also in our set is of course dubious
mircea_popescu: but i'm thinking maybe it went from "crack rsa" to "phuctor" level of dubiousness.
asciilifeform: this would be a slightly more interesting imho exercise if the popped boxes were not all routers/webcams/etc where no one hangs on shell
asciilifeform: though i will point out that i do not conclusively know this about ~all~ of them, only all of the ones that are still alive at the ip where they turned up in june...
mircea_popescu: more a case of "locate the maniacs" than anything.
mircea_popescu: i think people generally misunderstand just how fucking abundant insanity is
asciilifeform: btw quite a few of those boxen you can log into, right ~now~
asciilifeform: with default creds.
mircea_popescu: it wasn't some sort of grand "oh we shall pwn boxen" as such.
asciilifeform: (the remainder - also can, with manufacturer's backdoor pw, which i simply do not happen to know)
mircea_popescu: though "admin" and "12345" usually carry the day
asciilifeform: admin/[blank] interestingly, most common on the current set.
mircea_popescu: i suppose it's better from an ux perspective.
mircea_popescu: also what customers have come to expect, what with http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-15#1567492 etc
a111: Logged on 2016-11-15 02:09 asciilifeform: 'The attacker just have to press and keep pressing the [Enter] key at the LUKS password prompt until a shell appears, which occurs after 70 seconds approx.'
asciilifeform: btw everyone possibly already knows this, but bugmakers refer to nsa et al as 'customers'
asciilifeform: (and not, as naively one might expect, to their ~actual~ customers as such)
jurov: mircea_popescu: to actually connect, client keys must be cracked. asciilifeform: when can i expect the hopper to free for these?
mircea_popescu: jurov yes ?
jurov: i have the github pubkeys
mircea_popescu: o, those are still waiting ? i thought they were in already for some reason.
asciilifeform: jurov: i can slip'em in after the current batch of Framedragger keys is digested, a few wks from now. otherwise - april or so.
mircea_popescu: bejaysus, we actually have 6 months of fuel here ?!
mircea_popescu: somehow i was under the impression we're just about running out
asciilifeform: jurov: if you have them in ready format, send'em over.
mircea_popescu: and so then what, jurov 's set is gonna add another what... two years ? more ?
asciilifeform: i have nfi how many he has
jurov: iirc 10millions. they're still in e,N,comment CSV
mircea_popescu: but basically we're at what, 200k/month or such ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: approx.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the feeding is the sole bottleneck.
mircea_popescu: jurov you got us covered for 2 years!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform any way this can be sped up though ?
asciilifeform: theoretically there are ways
asciilifeform: will need substantial work tho.
mircea_popescu: there's worse fates than a 2year phuctor fuel supply. (i guess.)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform did you ever get a copy of jurov's keys though ?
asciilifeform: dun think so
asciilifeform: or wait
mircea_popescu: i thought he sent it
asciilifeform: i have something:
a111: Logged on 2016-05-20 17:47 jurov: asciilifeform: github rsa keys: http://www.explo.yt/phathub-201506.csv.xz
asciilifeform: 5662db8716ddfa945e0b45103517eb681b32f7c2615af731ae0644737e92389122f8740e6f86201e61b96513bd2ace3301dd288c88f3e93bae46dd7594327dac phathub-201506.csv.xz
asciilifeform: aaaaha it.
asciilifeform: so yes.
mircea_popescu: cool then.
asciilifeform: there it is.
mircea_popescu: jurov sorry if this is frustratingly slow.
Framedragger: jurov: i have a trivial python script based on your openpgp-generator to convert arbitrary numbers of e,N,comment into pgp if interested (but you prolly have something of the same - just in case)
jurov: Should have converted them to gpg, as Framedragger did.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: jurov posted a quite working one earlier, i used it for the amd keys recently
asciilifeform: (and posted that version here also)
Framedragger: ah yeah i recall. i think my only modification is that it handles bulk amounts, but really nothing special
Framedragger: also, i may want to re-run the base ipv4 ssh server finder at some point, i'm sure i'll get some more keys :p
jurov: yea, they usually don't survive reinstalls
asciilifeform: Framedragger: this time, i recommend, with built-in port scan
Framedragger: (vc's cockbox vps don't care about no abuse complaintz.)
Framedragger: asciilifeform: as in, scan additional ports, you mean?
asciilifeform: as in, if it serves up http or https on any port, i want a snapshot
Framedragger: or banner-grabber? i have all the banners still. (and no i haven't done anything with them, yet)
asciilifeform: if telnet - the greeting string
asciilifeform: and yes
Framedragger: ah, right on. yes, fair enough.
asciilifeform: (and if https -- the pubkey also!)
asciilifeform: because these, imho, ought to go next.
asciilifeform: why should henninger et al and their 'seekrit evidence' remain 'state of art'
Framedragger: aha, the way it'd work, it'd still scan only port 22 initially, because grabbing banners / doing stateful communication is much slower. doing the former is a matter of TCP SYN/ACK, with embedded 'cookies', no need for state
Framedragger: but the 2nd ssh-key-extractor stage can do the stuff you want, yes.
Framedragger: sounds good
Framedragger: aha yes, ssl certs should go into the oven, too.
asciilifeform: betcha even if this is slow, it is still faster than feeding'em into the db currently
asciilifeform: (they, as everyone probably already guessed, get db queried one-at-a-time. to do anything else would result in a 50x more complicated phuctor.)
asciilifeform: phuctor is a living illustration of the tradeoffs of 'muntzing'. it is ~100 % reliable, and (aside from the unicode turdolade) demonstrably bug-free. but this comes at a price.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger preferably sometime in 2019 lo;
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform wut seekrit evidence ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they never, afaik, published one single factor.
asciilifeform: or the ip of one single popped box.
mircea_popescu: of course not. but i dun grok how it relates ?
asciilifeform: well, they -- supposedly -- did phuctor-with-ssl
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: i have this idea of doing focused not-for-coal-mines work this summer (some time after May) lol. so maybe even 2017!!1
asciilifeform: and then wrote fancy paper with charts etc. but 0 actual hard evidence
mircea_popescu: except a) they didn't and b) we did and c) they published nothing and d) we published both ips and factors ?
asciilifeform: they published (claimed) tally, charts, 'discussion'
asciilifeform: as these folx tend to.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger the idea being that we're overflowing data to process, after your set ends up in spring jurov's goes in and may take a year+
Framedragger: ahh, that's what you mean. yeah k lol.
Framedragger: well, it is nice to have data.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha.
asciilifeform: in all fairness, i will likely rewrite it again before 2 yrs . seems to have become a yearly chore.
mircea_popescu: you should see the level this kabuki has achieved. they actually post multiple imagemagick generated jpegs. which are "proof"
Framedragger: could it be that half of them are bots, mircea_popescu? can't imagine them being able to use imagemagick for the life of me
mircea_popescu: this proves something
asciilifeform: and if we really get mircea_popescu's botnet system, perhaps phuctor can finally get off the elephant box and onto 1024 chickens..
mircea_popescu: Framedragger i expect they have a fully scripted environment cobbled together out of visual basic, httpfox and what have you
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lemon market, there.
Framedragger: well, good for the skriptkiddies then. a spammy-scripty strategy is a strategy nonetheless.
asciilifeform: and l0l!!1 is THIS why i'm getting arsebook hits on dulap..?
Framedragger: except for the whole "wasting time of actual people" side of things..
mircea_popescu: Framedragger the problem they face is that as they cannibalized language itself they're now stuck in a very lost world without any possibility of out of band
mircea_popescu: the ancient cobbler apprentice who did a bad job had two out of band systems, his master's crop and his master's words, to shake him out of biological amoebasty.
mircea_popescu: but these kids, who cobble not sandals but the very words... they're stuck in monoband world. and i honestly see no possible solution.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes.
Framedragger: i see what you mean. now it's a closed bubble/system for them, sort of...
asciilifeform: ^C^C^C^C^C^C^C
mircea_popescu: anyway. i don't think they wasted my time nor do i think myself the victim. fact is i can turn them into value if i so decide, much like the beekeeper can make candles and honeycomb if he wants. and if i don't want - i just don't make a fiverr account. not like they can do anything whatsoever, they can't even elect hillary.
asciilifeform: reminds me, more than anything, of that time, half decade ago now, that i bought some 'google ads' for my robot control product
asciilifeform: (story is in the logz)
mircea_popescu: but they concerned with the proposition of alf the bee-dog's bees, ie these things... they've a serious problem.
asciilifeform: at this point i cannot think of what these 'bees' might be good for, they are not even bees, but roaches, there is no roach candle wax afaik.
asciilifeform: even solving spam 'captcha' is better with machine.
mircea_popescu: well, you can kill them elaborately for the public amusement...
asciilifeform: i picture that even this gets old. (though i will still buy ticket!)
mircea_popescu: well, as appetite strikes. avocado never got old.
asciilifeform: speaking of public amusement, word is that ~all~ 3,000 or so obummer 'staffers' are quitting. and now being replaced.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger re automation angle - i dunno, i suppose varying amounts of elbow grease could be employed, entirely as a mechanical gearbox, in lieu of actual automation. just it doesn't fit in my head - the same people who wouldn't read ten words would then go through the motions, orders of magnitude more complex, of making screenshots etc ?
asciilifeform: (that forest of office towers around wh is full of these, traditionally)
mircea_popescu: not that it's out and out impossible, after all the bee will do what it knows in preference of all otehr deeds.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "quitting" is how they'd like it to be called.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger if that blurring is not imagemagick'd in place, then how was it obtained ? that sorta thing.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as was said about hruschev, 'его ушли'
asciilifeform: 'he was quitted'
mircea_popescu: in romanian - fu uschit
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: yeah, i guess can't be certain. doesn't really fit for sure..
mircea_popescu: the very notion of "screenshot as proof" is suspect and to my mind inseparable from http://trilema.com/2014/o-hai-let-me-verify-your-identity/
asciilifeform: promisetronic 'verifications' are an eternal plague among the stupid. consider even the timestamp in gpg (to make the phuctor sig from last night's qntra, i used ordinary gpg 1.4, with patch). what business does a userland proggy have asking for the wall clock time without permission? if i want it to have a time, i will pipe 'date' to it...
mircea_popescu: not, on the other hand, to deny that there in fact exists this subculture dedicated to the screenshot as quotation mechanism, or that tech support teams regularly see terrabytes of crap each month, clogging the tubes for no conceivable reason. it has to do with a failure of literacy, a certain laziness of the mind that thinks in symbols (which is what the screenshot is).as newman put it, "to see things as they are, to go righ
mircea_popescu: t to the point, to disentangle a skein of thought, to detect what is sophistical, and to discard what is irrelevant."
asciilifeform: also has to do with ubiquitously broken software (why the fuck is it possible for www site's scripts to MODIFY THE CLIPBOARD??)
mircea_popescu: im pretty sure that's javascript.
asciilifeform: well yes
asciilifeform: but that is not answer
mircea_popescu: hey, if you run js you're basically outsourcing root.
asciilifeform: if you plug in the nic, you're 'outsourcing root', eh.
mircea_popescu: but javascript is specifically dedicated to doing dumb shit like "i'll pretend to be you - and fill the clipboard"
mircea_popescu: that's what it DOES.
asciilifeform: and break the 'back' button, etc.
asciilifeform: draw 'popup' on screen straight through supposed 'popup filter'
asciilifeform: and the like.
mircea_popescu: well, in fairness the back button thing is because browsers are shit more than anything. there's a thousand ways to break it, including by introducing an expiring page in the stack etc.
mircea_popescu: ie, the back button itself is promisetronic as implemented by browsers. "almost like lisp!"
asciilifeform: whole thing is a crock of shit, for quite fundamental reasons -- let teenage cocklets design infrastructure, it will look like www stack every time.
asciilifeform: and ever power switch, on every box i've had since my 'cyrix' 486-dx, was promisetronic.
asciilifeform: (incidentally -- it was mandated, by microshit. purely as show of force.)
mircea_popescu: to get back to the pguctor feeding briefly - you mean "one at a time" as in insert into whatever values () as opposed to insert into whatever values (),(),() ?
asciilifeform: as in, the thing gets hashed, and db gets queried for the hash, and for the fp (these are two separate and not wholly overlapping ways to index pgp keys) to see if we already have either
asciilifeform: then inserted correctly.
mircea_popescu: ah. myeah.
mircea_popescu: what db is it, progres ?
asciilifeform: bog-standard.
mircea_popescu: i think some magic could be had where you put all the new items into a new table then merge the two tables where hashes don't match.
mircea_popescu: but i am no db expert.
asciilifeform: this is what i meant when said 'theoretically - yes'
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/OulNa << can't say that herr soros is spent quite yet!111 they are marching out ~high school~ pupils to 'protest' nao.
asciilifeform: (for non-u.s. folk: this is not a thing normally permitted)
asciilifeform: 'About 800 Montgomery Blair High School students attended the rally at the stadium, and most returned to class afterward, Montgomery County Public Schools spokeswoman Gboyinde Onijala said.'
mircea_popescu: gbo who ?!
asciilifeform: aha, i also dropped jaw
mircea_popescu: what happened to "you're not willing to follow the rules, you can't take public office" ?
asciilifeform: linked ~solely for this detail.
asciilifeform: lincoln. et al.
mircea_popescu: "It hurt me inside knowing somebody from outside our race is talking bad about us," said Rodriguez, carrying a sign reading, "Brown and Proud."
pete_dushenski: brown race ? how racist.
mircea_popescu: kinda the point of the whole "special" bullshit. everything the anal child does is directed towards the same protection of his childhood, and in this particular case - if he's special enough then you can't "say bad things" because are outside ; and if you're not outside he'll just... specialize more.
pete_dushenski: like whole #rapemelania thing, libertards are now outting themselves as the biggest racists/sexists/bigots around, post-trump
pete_dushenski: http://archive.is/rTmsK << "where is the outrage??!"
pete_dushenski: !~ticker --market all --currency rmb
mircea_popescu: o hey, apparently twitter DOESN'T have you know, guidelines etc anymore.
pete_dushenski: gotta appeal to any and all possible suitors now that it's turning tricks on the corner for dimes. go jack!
mircea_popescu: who's jack ?
pete_dushenski: dorsey. twitter founder.
mircea_popescu: lol chris rock dun give a shit, he's promoting some new movie and big titty tuesday
pete_dushenski: he was kicked out / sold out when twitter was nearing peak valuation then brought back to 'save' co. meanwhile he shoulda stayed on the beach sipping margaritas because he failed miserably to 'pull a steve'
mircea_popescu: hey, i'm sure they're paying him to be there.
BingoBoingo: Sure but they are porlly paying him with Inequity!
mircea_popescu: eh. maybe they're paying him in fresh tail. so he made up some scam, sold it to some suckers for $$$, then they want him to come back and be worshipped by all the interns ? sure, why not.
mircea_popescu: maybe some of 'em want to go away for a weekend, you don't know till you ask amirite.
BingoBoingo: Nah, it's Inequity. See Jack, he is in Tweaven and you are banned.
pete_dushenski: "At Twitter, he didn't collect a salary or stock options last year and only received personal and residential security costs totaling $68,506." << dorsey's 2015 figures
mircea_popescu: i'm telling you, tail.
asciilifeform: there are other untaxable unsalaries, unoptions, e.g., jet rides, etc.
mircea_popescu: who the fuck would want stock options on twitter.
asciilifeform: nobody, so paid in mig rides and cuntjuice
BingoBoingo: Well, as Elliot pointed out Tail is also an Inequity
mircea_popescu: they're prolly too ethnic for elliot.
BingoBoingo: And Elliot is too ethnic for them.
BingoBoingo: So unfair.
BingoBoingo: Such a valuable inequity.
Framedragger: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20161115/#349 << ohmygerd how i hate this shit. it ends with "to quote text in screenshot of screenshot, i'll make a screenshot". tumblr at least retains/-ed the concept of a "quote as a block of text". wouldn't be surprised if not for long.
scriba: Logged on 2016-11-15: [17:08:07] <mircea_popescu> not, on the other hand, to deny that there in fact exists this subculture dedicated to the screenshot as quotation mechanism, or that tech support teams regularly see terrabytes of crap each month, clogging the tubes for no conceivable reason. it has to do with a failure of literacy, a certain laziness of the mind that thinks in symbols (which is
scriba: what the screenshot is).as newman put it, "to see things as they are, to go righ
mircea_popescu: myeah. rahter insufferable aren't they.
Framedragger: this reminds of james mickens' rants on 'mobile' and 'modern web', e.g. (JS - i've linked to it once iirc, under the bdsm social board discussion): http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/mickens/files/towashitallaway.pdf (html: http://fd.mkj.lt/stuff/towashitallaway.html - for logs)
Framedragger: (and no, the irony of linking to pdf which talks about stupid frontend formats is not lost on me... :( )
asciilifeform: or to html ver that is missing one word in 5 from original...
asciilifeform: (which is a shame, this is a great piece imho)
asciilifeform: the one problem, shared with every other piece like this that i know of, is that it omits the obvious cure, which is not simply to thermonuke the crud, but to kill the horse it rode in on, and the rider, and to burn the field that it fed on, and salt it.
asciilifeform: and bury long-lived reactor waste there, for good measure.
asciilifeform: worked for netscape ? partied with jwz ? sat on itu standards committee ? there is a pick at butugychag with yer name on it.
asciilifeform: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/crjex/?raw=true << ascii paste seems to grab the txt correctly, oddly enough.
Framedragger: ah, that's nice.
Framedragger: (and yes, agree.)
asciilifeform: which is why i'm not terribly thrilled with strategic retreats like 'let's keep dns but with our root' etc.
Framedragger: (in fairness, the html sometimes mangles two words together, omitting a space, or somesuch. not many words are lost. but still, shame.)
asciilifeform: Framedragger: some months ago i restored a vintage keyboard, with capacitative matrix (contactless) which needed new controller and analogue calibration etc. it was interesting learning experience in that i never understood how ~motherfucking reliable~ an ordinary keyboard must be before it feels usable.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: do note that mircea_popescu's idea of keeping dns is more akin to a general WoT-enforced hashtable, update-able via (in principle) gossipd-compatible pgprams, and (for the time being) transportable over dns/udp. the latter so that dns clients can make use of it.
asciilifeform: an error of 500 ppm or so is already quite painful, palpably
asciilifeform: which is to say, one or two 'wtf, i pressed / and got F15' every day
Framedragger: asciilifeform: which is, i think, not a complete retreat, so to speak
asciilifeform: Framedragger: it is retreat in that it keeps 10,000,001 lines of C written by teenagers
asciilifeform: (and transport link where nsa can flip any bit or drop any packet with impunity etc)
asciilifeform: i will confess, that i judge any such effort first of all by one metric -- how many lines of jwz c code it EXTIRPATES
asciilifeform: burn, with hot irons.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/11/google-pull-adsense-from-news-content-it-doesnt-like/ << Qntra - Google Pull Adsense From News Content It Doesn't Like
asciilifeform: (incidentally, if something runs ~solely~ on top of a system written in jwzc, it is to be counted as jwzc code, every line. just as every penny spent by an embezzler from his embezzled funds counts as mis-spent.)
asciilifeform: hence js, etc., all same.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: "it was interesting learning experience in that i never understood how ~motherfucking reliable~ an ordinary keyboard must be before it feels usable." very interesting! nice project. (ppm == pixels per meter?)
asciilifeform: parts per million
Framedragger: right, both precision and accuracy required (any error rate cripples the UX, etc.)
asciilifeform: earlier this year, i wanted to fit symmetric cipher into trb, and get rid of 'blackholing' etc. but mircea_popescu correctly pointed out that it is the Wrong Thing to cement a pseudoscientific abortion like AES (or ANY OTHER known symmetric cipher!) into place
asciilifeform: and i still agree.
asciilifeform: and also agree re dns.
Framedragger: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20161115/#440 << sure, i guess. (note though that this effort would get rid of dns server code, though. and it does not obstruct one from later patching dns client code / rewriting a much more simplistic name query client.)
scriba: Logged on 2016-11-15: [18:22:14] <asciilifeform> Framedragger: it is retreat in that it keeps 10,000,001 lines of C written by teenagers
asciilifeform: when you make use of something, successfully, you inevitably come to rely on it. this is a cost. i am still paying the cost for having used a python library in 2013.
trinque: lel
Framedragger: re. plaintext for all NSAs to read, sure, there's that. goes against gossipd's "no free bits for the unauthenticated" i guess. but again, this can be wrapped in gossipd later.
trinque: describe "wrapped in gossipd" ?
trinque: one central table of all things seems entirely anti-gossipd
asciilifeform: Framedragger: worse than this, it is even difficult to quantity the cost of perpetuating the IDEA of a 'block cipher' as being A THING
Framedragger: trinque: not that part. the transport part - name query/response, as well as name updates.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: you cannot get rid of the idiocy of 10,000,001 lines of jwzola by 'wrapping' in anything
trinque: Framedragger: name of what
Framedragger: trinque: but yes, the central table thing remains
asciilifeform: 'wrapping' is why software is garbage
asciilifeform: all of it
asciilifeform: this whole notion. that you can 'wrap' stupidity in something and hide it away.
Framedragger: trinque: i meant as a generic string - trying to avoid the term 'domain' as the latter is not accurate..
trinque: not what I'm asking
trinque: I call that guy "shithead" and you call him "sir"
trinque: so what?
trinque: and who is right?
Framedragger: trinque: right, this is cf. gossipd's "everyone has their own a la hosts file, and does with it what they like". is that what you meant?
trinque is not opposed to doing something with DNS while we still must use it
asciilifeform: central namespaces are a dumb idea. i regard it as my duty to put this on record.
trinque: just that it does *not* map sanely to gossiptronics
Framedragger: i see what you mean.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-15#1567796 << eh get out, nothing of that kind.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-15 18:19 asciilifeform: which is why i'm not terribly thrilled with strategic retreats like 'let's keep dns but with our root' etc.
Framedragger: i don't have a strong opinion, i wonder what mircea_popescu thinks. i guess the answer would also focus on the "while we still must use it" aspect
trinque: sure, we have websites neh?
Framedragger: "allegedly"
Framedragger: so, yeah. and i'm no longer convinced it would redundant, in the sense that when gossipd cometh, one must throweth the 'general name system' away
Framedragger: there could be WoT members maintaining their own namespaces that others may want to peruse, etc.
Framedragger: but i speculate.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform keeps my foot. what the hell does it keep ?
asciilifeform: keeps the infrastructure - the clients, servers.
mircea_popescu: go find one line of code currently involved in dns in any capacity that you can prove is going to remain there.
mircea_popescu: ugh. no it doesn't.
mircea_popescu: that's the whole discussion re "delgation" in the comments.
trinque: it's kinda "I will not take this land until it is flying my flag already"
asciilifeform: waaaiwat, why would you keep the unauthenticable crock of shit made of 10,001 ITU idiocies if you ~weren't~ gonna keep the code ?!
mircea_popescu: there's no discussion re any of that. who said "unauthenticable" ?
asciilifeform: unless i misunderstand, thread was about mircea_popescu's idea of recycling traditional dns, but using own root
mircea_popescu: you misunderstand.
Framedragger: personally i don't see why there could not be a GNS which would be separate from commitments to specific transport standards. have a table, have a transport layer, swap the layer later. i may be naive in regards to the "swap" step, i guess... :/
asciilifeform: (incidentally, dns was cleverly designed by nato lackeys ~not to be~ cryptoencapsulable. for instance, it demands 512byte udp packet. go and wrap that in ANYTHING and see how fragments.)
asciilifeform: so now you gotta replace all extant hardware.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-15#1567823 << every system you ever use will have a dictionary ; and every system you ever used in the past had a dictionary. this is unavoidable. you prefer one over another, dictionaries, systems, that's your problem. but if you read the linked rfc - there's parts they get right, right before the parts they fuck up that i underlined in red.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-15 18:35 trinque: one central table of all things seems entirely anti-gossipd
mircea_popescu: you can't have a system without a dictionary.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: i thought so too, but basically mircea_popescu's idea would dispatch of the whole 'dns zone' concept. there would be no 'domain' per se. dns clients could still query 'loper-os', but the server would be a simple table, with no understanding of zones or significance of "."
asciilifeform: Framedragger: abstraction layering doesn't work. it is the great lie of the software age.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the fact that you can query dns server over current dns protocol and get current response does NOT create an obligation on your to do so.
mircea_popescu: feel free to query it over gossipd, or over whatever else.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: fact is, central table of anything at all, is a throne, i simply do not see the 'win' from retaining the throne.
mircea_popescu: so how do you propose to have a lisp ?
asciilifeform: same way i have long division.
mircea_popescu: be explicit. metaphora doesn't belong here.
trinque: I would expect that if I am on gossipnet and I want loper-os, I ask my friends if they have a key which they call loper-os
asciilifeform: then refine specifically what means 'a lisp' here
mircea_popescu: if there's nowhere to lookup the "(" how will you have a lisp ? because "we all know" ? and if we don't know how do we find out ?
mircea_popescu: out of band dns-over-phone is not an improvement. over anything.
mircea_popescu: trinque and if you want to know what deedbot contains, also ask friends ?
asciilifeform: and here we are speaking non-standardized commercial pidgin from long-dead empire, and it mostly worx..
mircea_popescu: you ask your friends what they think ; not what the world is.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: how about: make a proof of concept name system, use it instead of current dns root server set for now, later enable every gossipd user to run their own instance of name system if they prefer the fully-decentralized-dictionary path; the initial PoC will still have been useful.
scriba: Logged on 2016-11-15: [18:34:31] <asciilifeform> when you make use of something, successfully, you inevitably come to rely on it. this is a cost. i am still paying the cost for having used a python library in 2013.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "mostly" ie, "until mp requires a definition, then it all breaks down"
trinque: mircea_popescu: no. once I know a key I can interact with deedbot if I can make it there over gossipd peerings
mircea_popescu: trinque s/deedbot/dns/
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: anything pushed outside of its working envelope - breaks.
asciilifeform: to go upstack, i see nothing wrong with 'we all agree on how arithmetic works, do business with keys, sex -- with people'
mircea_popescu: "trilema.com is 4.5.6.7 according to mp. if you believe mp - then there you go". that's a dns record.
mircea_popescu: even now. they try to pretend otherwise. that pretense has to have some light shed on it.
asciilifeform: btw asciilifeform suffered with this problem in '10, and even put the notes up on www ( http://kyristor.com ) then concluded that it was braindamaged waste of time
asciilifeform: to each -- his own name table.
mircea_popescu: you will have to share some portions of the symbol tables.
mircea_popescu: this is inescapable.
mircea_popescu: once it's inescapable - it'll have to be implemented.
asciilifeform: so you standardize the asking. it is really the basic wot operation
mircea_popescu: we call this "dns" for historical reasons. but relations to the imperial braindamaged implementation are spurious.
asciilifeform: does key '1F......BC' merit name of 'hero' or 'sc4mz0r', etc
mircea_popescu: you can't standardize "the asking" ebcause the asking is made out of symbols which have to be meaningful.
asciilifeform: so nail down the minimal 'ask'.
asciilifeform: instead of palace economy with 1 table of names.
mircea_popescu: really, read this rfc thing. it isn't long. where the fuck is it.
trinque: it is not necessarily that there cannot be multiple tables, but perhaps that one must win
asciilifeform: (see link, i narrowly missed drawing wot and whole shebang, through sheer thick-headedness )
asciilifeform: trinque: what, in your mind, does 'win' look like ?
asciilifeform: if it looks like usg dns, you have lost. definitionally.
trinque: republican structure of meaning means there is this nexus of hierarchy and debate out of which is emitted *the truth*
asciilifeform: because such a net isn't worth using.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-14 19:37 mircea_popescu: and, of course, 2000s vintage imperial lulz https://archive.is/g9O6H
mircea_popescu: trinque the words you use must have meanings. even if they have the most peculiar of meanings such as nigger = bureaucrat or jew = us agitprop agent ; nevertheless they must be given. somewhere.
Framedragger: "A0 can be implemented by regarding an authority's PGP public key as being its public routing address!" << nice kademlia and/or gossipd vibes
trinque: mircea_popescu: aha I can see it.
mircea_popescu: yes, it works fine in context, yes context frames needn't even map to identities ; nevertheless - you will have to have shared symbol tables.
asciilifeform: trinque: there is 'nexus of hierarchy' where we, e.g., study writings of mircea_popescu because they make sense and worth respect. and there is the other kind of hierarchy, where prb makes dns query using usg.glibc and internic root server is hardbaked into the code.
asciilifeform: and amd bakes magic key into mask rom.
trinque: so then the solution must come of "we who matter have connected to node X for the table" and could do otherwise, but don't
trinque: as we could rate X or not
mircea_popescu: quite so.
mircea_popescu: the fact that my definitions of imperial terminology prevail over the empire's own definition has nothing to do with the fact that before such a prevailing can take place, those definitions must actually exist and be given.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's rather true. real vs conventional hierarchy. there's these girls who are slaves ; and then there's these poor but ambitious girls who wish to be slaves. all that pretense jazz.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-15#1567838 << in point of fact we don't must use it, i've been happy with local name table for what, half a year ? not so much a matter of this as - it's there. might as well infect and "ruin" it for teh imperial idjits.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-15 18:37 trinque is not opposed to doing something with DNS while we still must use it
asciilifeform: y'know, usg.dns queries outsourced to archive.is box is still dns..
mircea_popescu: that's not how it works. i got this local key-data store ; the box can't even connect via dns port.
asciilifeform: just like orthodox j0000z still turn on lights, run lifts, on shabbat
asciilifeform: even if not with own hands.
mircea_popescu: and while it pretends otherwise, it has nfi what . means and would just as happily resolve "illegal" domaions.
Framedragger: "nexus of hierarchy" connects for me (maybe on some superficial level only) to kyristor's "The only questions A0 is qualified to answer are those for which disputes can be settled entirely through majority vote of the entire DHT network" - where the dht network
Framedragger: could be a set of particular (and particular only) peers. in any case, there must be a shared understanding among the users/elite as to how to proceed in face of naming conflicts.
Framedragger: is my (naive probably) understanding.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: note that this was the laughable piece, 'majority votes', i had nfi how to cut the knot of sybil etc.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: presumed that 'nodes' would be mappable to people who knew one another in the flesh, invariably.
asciilifeform: (a la fidonet)
mircea_popescu: why the fuck would any of this matter ? in a discussion of "that guy" we may either load the table where he is written "shithead" or "sir", but in either case we gotta load a table for crying out loud.
asciilifeform: (at any rate, i suspect that everyone here has a similar set of ~useless notes from last decade)
mircea_popescu: i do not.
mircea_popescu: i never bothered with ANY of this shit until bitcoin.
asciilifeform: didntcha have a reddit-like thingie with wots etc ?
asciilifeform: 'sinn feinn' or what was it
mircea_popescu: no pgp involved for instance. but sure, i guess.
mircea_popescu: means "cool" in dialect transylvanian romanian.
asciilifeform: possibly there is another way to cut the namespace thing. question is 'does this hierarchical postulate increase or decrease buluceala ?'
asciilifeform: buluceala, i will posit, is a Bad Thing, like car wrecks on public thoroughfare, or resistive loss in electric lines.
mircea_popescu: to get back to the fidonet/various attempts to do independent dns etc - the very naive "symbol context" = X, be x "an identity" or whatever is a liability. you gotta just let the context be its own thing.
Framedragger: i still have a reserved name ('indra', as in reflexive "indra's net" / indrajāla) for my mega decentralized permanent content concept, baked when i was maybe 18 yo lol. in fairness, "indra's net" is a l33t name that i hope i will use some time.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i would say the gns as discussed on trilema drastically reduces it.
mircea_popescu: (note that for the needs of this discussion - i know because grandfather told me is a nec plus ultram of buluceala. it's how people know the earth is flat.)
asciilifeform: how about when coca cola shows up with tank division after pepsicola registers 'coke.com' ?
asciilifeform: also less buluceala ?
mircea_popescu: we're discussing cognition here not fizz.
asciilifeform: if i knew how to separate cognition and fizz, i'd be dictating terms to republic of california from dirigible fleet.
mircea_popescu: there's exactly nothing wrong for pepsicola and his friends to discuss pepsicola by "coke.com" in their own context, and CERTAINLY coca-cola doesn't have nor can aquire some mechanism to prevent his.
asciilifeform: in global namespace a la dns -- they gotta have tank battle
mircea_popescu: if tomorrow i wanna call barack obama hussein bahamas, i'll call him that and he can cry me a river over it.
mircea_popescu: similarly fatties, gender-confuzeleds and any other special or specifiable interest group.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform alternatively they could you know, just not credit THAT root and be done with it.
mircea_popescu: i for instance don't credit the english-online-dictionaries opinions as to the meaning of english words.
mircea_popescu: life hasn't ended, the sun still rises, trilema clearly benefits.
asciilifeform: so now you have 10,000,001 'roots', which inevitably will happen when bahama throne falls, why not arrive at that situation ~deliberately~, rather than like (to steal from old mircea_popescu piece!) 'like teenage cowsie falls pregnant, willy-nilly'
mircea_popescu: for the same reason "pua" is a horrible dating strategy.
mircea_popescu: it's not deliberate in any useful sense, because some outcomes are not deliberable.
mircea_popescu: (yes you can rape the woman instead, which is in this sense deliberate, but i daresay not the same thing)
asciilifeform: building a throne hall when you know that the stable situation really consists of 10,001 margraves, imho is mistake.
mircea_popescu: why ? the other margaves gotta copy SOMETHING.
mircea_popescu: and who said they get to be margraves in the first place ?
mircea_popescu: CAN THEY even build a hall convincingly ?
Framedragger: so the notion of a local symbol frame/context will be retained inevitably, is that what you're saying mircea_popescu? (in which case i'd add that gns-the-implementation could even probably be used - on each interested user's machine - as a local name system. etc.)
Framedragger: however, an agreed-by-everyone-who-matters symbol context would still be needed. (sorry if interrupting, trying to clarify for my own education.)
asciilifeform favours of keeping the set of 'everyone who matters must agree on this' as small as possible (but not smaller).
Framedragger: i guess that's a given assumption in #trilema
mircea_popescu: everyone-who-matters is a nonsensical reference point here.
mircea_popescu: everyone-who-participates-in-this-conversation is the reference point. evidently, if we are talking about uh i dunno, star trek, the names have to be known and shared. spock can't be the woman with the nice ass. how does one join this conversation ? there's two options - either the usian school of "don't loo kit up - guess, fropm "context", what "it could be" or else - look it up damned it. to look it up, it has to be looked
mircea_popescu: up SOMEWHERE. that's the gns.
mircea_popescu: the imperial idiots implemented this as dns, which is stupid and braindamaged, but the implementation being flawed doesn't remove the fundamental reasons, which is why i say - read that damned rfc, the things i didn't mock are actually correct.
Framedragger: right. how would the process of resolving conflicts in gns look like, though? (i'm just curious, i.e. question is well-intentioned, not troll-y)
mircea_popescu: and from thence it all progresses - no, the place to look up needn't be "one across all the internet", because "otherwise postel thinks it'd be chaos".
mircea_popescu: what postel thinks'd be chaos, much like what jwz thinks'd be chaos, much like clinton or whoever other of these niggers and jews thinks to be "chnaos" is actually human life.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger what conflicts ?
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: i guess in your view, perhaps no viable conflicts would arise in gns? say, two owners of two distinct pgp keys claiming ownership of "apple.com". some kind of due process is to take place, presumably
mircea_popescu: no dude, when apple.com was registgered it was registered to a key.
mircea_popescu: what conflicts ?
mircea_popescu: anyway, ima go to buy chocolate and do things, so bbl we can continue.,
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: i (or someone more credible, or whoever) registers "trilema.com" under their own leigt key. what nao?
Framedragger: will need to change places in a few min, too.
Framedragger: unless the latter kind of situation is to be covered by your clarification, to quote, "I imagine like any serious country, we first handle the claims of the elite privately. "
Framedragger: but then already it is not as simplistic as "whoever owns the key", no?
Framedragger: also, http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20161115/#622 << http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-13#1566745 but this may be an issue in semantics/definitions only, i suppose.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-13 17:38 mircea_popescu: Framedragger note that i don't particularly see the value in restrictioning anything. in principle anyone should be able to register a domain for his bitcent - even if he puts no gpg key in there. he just won't be able to admin it, big whoop./
scriba: Logged on 2016-11-15: [19:26:43] <mircea_popescu> no dude, when apple.com was registgered it was registered to a key.
Framedragger bbl, too
pete_dushenski: mod6: cheers :D pretty stoked to be one of the contest winrars, though /me also wonders whether saxes or yugos caught BingoBoing's fancy.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-15#1567990 << ethereum also 'handled claims of the elite privately'.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-15 19:30 Framedragger: unless the latter kind of situation is to be covered by your clarification, to quote, "I imagine like any serious country, we first handle the claims of the elite privately. "
asciilifeform: it's a fundamentally zimbabwetronic thing.
a111: Logged on 2016-10-21 00:48 mircea_popescu: experience shows it's perfectly fine to have a philosopher king, however utterly suicidal to have a philosopher king's throne. bolt is fine, nut will kill you.
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: The one that didn't suck got the prize so no saxes.
BingoBoingo: In every case of multiple submissions attached to the same btc address there was a joke that was great and a lesser joke.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/11/sec-chair-mary-jo-white-leads-exodus-of-unexpired-appointees-ahead-of-trumpreich/ << Qntra - SEC Chair Mary Jo White Leads Exodus Of Unexpired Appointees Ahead Of Trumpreich
ben_vulpes: > charmyn
ben_vulpes: also funny
ben_vulpes: Framedragger: re: the "ownership" of trilema, i'd like to know who you suspect would even try to register trilema.com
ben_vulpes: good lols, yes, but the identity attached to the registration action is going to have some splainin to do
ben_vulpes: otherwise what's wrong with first-come first served?
mats: no shortage of trolls in here
trinque: ben_vulpes: there's one important distinction here. the gns has a WoT identity running it.
trinque: who needs blanket policy when he's free to choose and I'm free to negrate him?
ben_vulpes: "nation of men"?
trinque: aha
trinque: he issues trilema to mp because mp will thump him otherwise
trinque: and if he's unfair to elliot, grand.
ben_vulpes: i for one think that names should be mined.
a111: Logged on 2016-10-21 00:28 ben_vulpes: the infinite to bitcoin's finite, if you will.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/11/vilsack-attempts-to-whitewash-hussein-bahamas-rural-legacy/ << Qntra - Vilsack Attempts To Whitewash Hussein Bahamas Rural Legacy
BingoBoingo: !~bcstats
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Current Blocks: 439106 | Current Difficulty: 2.546201873040614E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 439487 | Next Difficulty In: 381 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 10 hours, 14 minutes, and 31 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
shinohai: http://archive.is/hMBhc <<< tinder to include "fill-in-the-blank" gender option, turning it into a mad-libs of dating
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-15#1568014 << that's what i thought as well - i queried along the same lines: "say someone with a valid GPG key rushes to register trilema.com in the Republican DNS before yourself. I suppose that is all well and good, and you negrating the key would only be appropriate in the instance of that person
a111: Logged on 2016-11-15 23:29 trinque: who needs blanket policy when he's free to choose and I'm free to negrate him?
Framedragger: pretending that they are MP?"
Framedragger: and mp said "da fuck, I'm not going to support a dns system where some dork registered trilema", which confused me, so yeah, clarification needed, i think.
Framedragger: because it would be great if WoT-gns worked like other WoT things, i.e., via the enforcement of WoT itself.
BingoBoingo: The guiding principle of Inequality demands that the first round of registrations in a domain system must necessarily be limited to the privileged.
Framedragger: first round, okay, but other rounds supposedly follow later, and the conflict case can be replicated, i would think, and hence the system supports conflicts, structurally, which need to be addressed one way or another.. dunno.
Framedragger: bbl, sleep
shinohai likes the cardinal virtue of unfairness ....
BingoBoingo: Well if you really care about a name you prolly ought to claim it in the first round
mircea_popescu: Framedragger fcfs, what.
mircea_popescu: the warning's out, whoever doesn't get in the wot is playing with fire.
mircea_popescu: been the word on the street for what, 2+ years now.
mircea_popescu: i like how it's always "but nobody would do this because we already did and reasons"
shinohai: pfffft ... I'm willing to bet there are plenty of people still running 12.04 ... could be slipped into a dirty emulator rom or somesuch
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-15#1567990 << that's exactly what i mean. gentlemen among gentlemen and otherwise fuck the peasants.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-15 19:30 Framedragger: unless the latter kind of situation is to be covered by your clarification, to quote, "I imagine like any serious country, we first handle the claims of the elite privately. "
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-15#1567999 << no it's not. the fact that i extend you the courtesy to not register "loper-os" at the sunrise event doesn't mean jack shit in that context. ethereum tried to change things AFTER. hardly the same thing.\
a111: Logged on 2016-11-15 20:43 asciilifeform: it's a fundamentally zimbabwetronic thing.
asciilifeform: not the 'elite get handled' part. the manually-cranked part.
mircea_popescu: i'm sorry ?
mircea_popescu: all definitions are ultimately manual.
asciilifeform: 'premining' is better analogy.
mircea_popescu: hardly much of an analogy.
asciilifeform: what is the motivation for 'civilians' (folx not in on the initial merry round of elite-handling) to subscribe ?
mircea_popescu: i don't give a shit.
mircea_popescu: i want something that works for me. if it works for others - good for them. if it doesn't, woe on them.
asciilifeform: /etc/hosts worx for me..
mircea_popescu: the measure of their fitness to survive is very strictly how well things that work for me work for them.
mircea_popescu: alrighty then!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-16#1568033 << i really don't see that past the "sunrise" so to call it there's any need to give a shit. i would not negrate anyone for registering "someone else's" domain after the system comes online and anyone can register whatever. i do think it's pretty idiotic to bring it online empty ; i won't support a system that tries that ; and i think the comparison with mining/premining is entirely w
a111: Logged on 2016-11-16 00:34 Framedragger: because it would be great if WoT-gns worked like other WoT things, i.e., via the enforcement of WoT itself.
mircea_popescu: ithout substance.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-16 00:35 Framedragger: first round, okay, but other rounds supposedly follow later, and the conflict case can be replicated, i would think, and hence the system supports conflicts, structurally, which need to be addressed one way or another.. dunno.
mircea_popescu: currently, you can not register a gns item. at some point X, you will become able to. thenceforth, you will be able to. that's the whole timeline.
asciilifeform: how is the 'able to' mechanically implemented ? because it is, or at least appears to be, promisetronic
mircea_popescu: you send "register name x type y key z" to server. if it doesn't have x, it registers it. if it has x, it registers y provided z is the key registered for x.
asciilifeform: 'register name x type y' is signed by z ?
asciilifeform: so far good; now say i want to ask 'what is y for this here x'
mircea_popescu: you send a dns request, like they work now exactly.
asciilifeform: what comes back ?
mircea_popescu: same thing as from a dig
asciilifeform: if it's ~exactly~ as now, then i get whatever verizon wants to substitute.
mircea_popescu: so ask over a better protocol then,
asciilifeform: or at&t, or whoever the fuck is upstream, zimbabwe telecom.
mircea_popescu: dns as is is dns as is.
asciilifeform: this is more or less an exact description of 'ask gossiptron to look up rating' except for the odd part where mircea_popescu wants it to be central or at least globally synchronized
asciilifeform: why not instead 'i ask my wot what is y for this x, if anyone disagrees, there are problems'
mircea_popescu: (ftr, re "does z sign", there's a beautiful tie-in for deedbot in here, because there's no reason i couldn't register straight from !!, and especially so if i have to pay something)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is a matter of fact, not a matter of opinion. it's of the nature of ask deedbot, not of the nature of "what does the lordship think"
asciilifeform: if this were so airtight, blockchain would not be necessary in bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: central server(s).
asciilifeform: i.e. usg.dns but with new arse(s) in throne ?
asciilifeform: by this logic, why not also make tmsr ntp ?
asciilifeform: ... or even throw out bitcoin and replace with 'tmsr central bank', on server in mircea_popescu's martian dome.
asciilifeform: possibly i am thick but i see same exact problem with all 3.
mircea_popescu: i don't know what "this logic" is. you are currently using dns, yes ?
mircea_popescu: "by this logic, why not also use windows".
mircea_popescu: "People think that Web browsers are elegant computation platforms, and Web pages are light, fluffy things that you can edit in Notepad as you trade ironic comments with your friends in the coffee shop. Nothing could be further from the truth." << actually... that's exactly how it goes for me. and i mean that literally - i write straight html while hurr durring with teh girlz.
asciilifeform: cannot speak for others, but i would like to use ~less~ dns and other centralized simon-says, not ~more~.
mircea_popescu: what you'd like doesn't enter into this. you'll use the dictionary whether you like to or not.
asciilifeform: copy the structure of the empire -- become the empire.
mircea_popescu: yes, except dictionaries aren't the structure of the empire. they're the structure of thought.
asciilifeform: they are also reasonably static.
mircea_popescu: this is a debatable point. they are however fixed in context ; much like symbol tables for a running program say.
asciilifeform: (not speaking of marvels like 'the big soviet encyclopaedia', which famously in '30s had 'updates' mailed in to subscribers, complete with razor blade to cut out undesirables)
asciilifeform in whole life has only ever owned one encyclopaedia, 'britannica 1958', fished out of a skip as a boy, and incidentally it was the longest edition they made -- after that, only cuts. and the thing is surprisingly useful.
asciilifeform: back upstack: i'm not convinced that 'the structure of thought' and 'updated regularly by remote hands' go together.
mircea_popescu: you don't own a ru dictionary ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not any moar sadly.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform your objection would be that if i one day decide to move trilema from ip x to ip y i thereby am confusing your thought process unduly ?
mircea_popescu: trilema fucking exists as my act of will, wherever i say it is that's where it is. of course they go together.
asciilifeform: though i ~have~ considered purchasing 'big soviet e.' in dead tree...
asciilifeform: trilema yes.
asciilifeform: but 'central servers' implies that i might also rely on mircea_popescu to say where, e.g., ben_vulpes's site, lives
asciilifeform: system where i gotta ask mircea_popescu where lives trilema, but if looking for www of ben_vulpes, must ask ben_vulpes -- i have 0 quarrel with.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-16#1568025 << and holy fuck, is it just me or does 'change.gov' no longer resolve ?!
a111: Logged on 2016-11-16 00:15 BingoBoingo: In other domain names https://www.greatagain.gov/
asciilifeform: ^^qntra..?
asciilifeform: 'What’s more, exploit code requires an attacker to program in the arcane 6502 language designed for the NES processor, relying on the way the virtualized 6502 processor translates this code to deliver malicious instructions.' << cpu produced in greatest number in all of history of semiconductor --- 'arcane' ?!
asciilifeform: i have 3 right on this desk
asciilifeform: and i am not even mega-aficionado.
asciilifeform: ~1k lines.
asciilifeform: (and ~cycle-accurate~. would be shorter if not.)
asciilifeform: posted here for illustrative purposes.
trinque: nope, no moar change.gov
asciilifeform: rot in peace
asciilifeform: and to think, obummer is still on the throne even.
asciilifeform: but no moar hoap, change.
asciilifeform: can anyone shed light on the precise moment of death ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what if you gotta ask deedbot ?
mircea_popescu: you are currently asking deedbot "where to send this repuiblican tax again ?"
asciilifeform: deedbot is bitcoin-anchored, neh ?
mircea_popescu: none of that conflicts with any of this.
mircea_popescu: ;; ANSWER SECTION: change.org. 2446 IN A 104.16.5.13 change.org. 2446 IN A 104.16.4.13 ftr.
asciilifeform: i get, ftr, same EGGOG as if i ask for tmsr.gov.
mircea_popescu: added 2009-7-26 last updated 2016-6-19
mircea_popescu: rua=amonzur@change.org if anyone cares.
asciilifeform: whois.icann.org claims to have never heard of it now..
asciilifeform: (it sees 'greatagain.gov' just fine)
asciilifeform: i dun think mail to that addr will deliver any moar.
asciilifeform: the death must be recent, working its way down the pyramid
asciilifeform: perhaps only hours ago.
asciilifeform: ~change.org~ resolves
mircea_popescu: change.gov was never a thing afaik
asciilifeform: !!google change.gov
deedbot: http://change.gov/jobs/apply_app/ << Presidential Appointments Application | Change.gov: The Obama ... | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_transition_of_Barack_Obama << Presidential transition of Barack Obama - Wikipedia | http://change.gov/agenda/civil_rights_agenda/ << Civil Rights | Change.gov: The Obama-Biden Transition Team
asciilifeform: was too.
mircea_popescu: well nomoar obama jerbs so.
asciilifeform: at least as late as the 2nd of this month, was alive.
mircea_popescu: anyway, re-reading this dns thing, i'm not even sure what the objections are. i'm getting a morass of "why shouldn't all the things be made out of lead since lead works well for pencils" + vague extremisms trying to confuse a clear boundry (x didn't exist ; x exists) with random other things.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for asciilifeform's enlightenment, describe plox why coin should not be made of the same 'lead' (simple scheme -- there are N coins at 'sunrise', and, e.g., mircea_popescu can move coin no. 1,555 to ben_vulpes by signing 'coin 1,555 now belongs to [key of ben_vulpes] at time T' etc
mircea_popescu: this is ~how it works.
asciilifeform: well not quite, there are the other annoying details of blockchain and mining.
mircea_popescu: why money should be p2p and dictionaries printed should be self-obvious, however.
asciilifeform: dictionaries don't remote-update.
asciilifeform: at least mine didn't.
mircea_popescu: when you bought the next installment of whatever comic you read as a boy,
mircea_popescu: your dictionary remote-updated.
asciilifeform: now if i had read comic as a boy, i might grasp this.
mircea_popescu: fine. when the ukrainians decided to be a nation, your dictionary also remote-updated.
mircea_popescu: you decided to stay on the old branch, which is fine, but also unrelated.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu is genius salesman, does he know
asciilifeform: 'buy this vacuum, hose is the same one you were beaten to near death with in the police precinct last year'
mircea_popescu: ironically, i am so intolerant i actually cross over into salesmanship.
mircea_popescu: this is one of those chtulhu things
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform just because police sometimes beats people up with vacuum hose does not mean vacuums hoses should be banned. we're not french fucking bulldogs, what sort of dogreasoning is this.
asciilifeform: lel who said 'banned'.
mircea_popescu: well so then ?
asciilifeform: just that it is not the most brilliant neutral selling point for asciilifeform in particular, that's all.
mircea_popescu: that i can see.
asciilifeform: i do not necessarily go with 'EVERYTHING must be made of blockchaintronium!111' thing. (if you recall this was actually subj of 1st conversation between mircea_popescu & asciilifeform , on the former's www, back in the day...) but i also dun see why to create a 'throne' if there is a simple means of not creating a throne and solving the problem.
mircea_popescu: but there isn't ; and what's worse, there necessarily can not be.
asciilifeform: was, e.g., 'namecoin', fatally broken in some algorithmic way ?
asciilifeform: (vs simple neglect)
asciilifeform: remind me, how
mircea_popescu: which is why we never adopted it.
asciilifeform: (iirc it was hammered to death altcoin-style..?)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform think for a second : the reason delegation exists is because a) people are idiots and b) the lists get long. in that order.
mircea_popescu: now imagine if instead of splitting it up via delegation, you simply made the problem exponentially worse by introducing a gossip layer in there.
mircea_popescu: which is ~what namecheap was.
asciilifeform: namecheap?!
mircea_popescu: im sory namecoin
asciilifeform: why not, say, standard bitcoin + 'telegraph'
mircea_popescu: last thing you fucking need is for every dns root server to have to talk to EVERY ONE for (total domain data) ^ 1/2's worth
asciilifeform: nah, don't need to 'talk to each one' specially, just look in your blocksxxx.dat for all sends to 1FuCkGoAtS..... and decode the payload.
mircea_popescu: and not btc + "telegraph" for the same reason - horribru data exchange profile.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, because updates.
asciilifeform: updates happen as the blox come in, neh?
mircea_popescu: finding out where trilema.com should point just became o(blocks)
asciilifeform: inner transport layer can be same as what mircea_popescu described earlier, 'x y z'
mircea_popescu: then if it is, whole thing should just be central server.
asciilifeform: it isn't O(blocks), it's O(blocks i haven't seen yet)
asciilifeform: you maintain local cache.
mircea_popescu: client doesn't hold the whole fucking dns db holy shit.
asciilifeform: eh even usg's db is what, 300M ?
mircea_popescu: "fuck you mp, i hate what i deem thrones so much, you now can't do name resolution on anything without a tb hdd!"
asciilifeform: btw here's an exercise, tally up the mass of all of the code on your linux box that is needed to get it to where it can query dns as we knew it
mircea_popescu: and no, with trims it's well into the tb range.
asciilifeform: also i have nfi re mircea_popescu but my /etc/hosts is not anywhere near 300kB much less mB.
mircea_popescu: there's iirc ~300 mn DOMAIN NAMES.
mircea_popescu: averaging w/e, half a dozen records each
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is a spurious objection, you'd still have to hold the whole blockchain to avoid o(blocks) in your insane anti-model.
asciilifeform: how many belong to anything you might ever wish to speak to.
mircea_popescu: you can't know in advance.
mircea_popescu: wtf, "here's the two pages of the dictionary we estimate you may ever need"
asciilifeform: also who the hell isn't a) already holding whole blockchain or b) connected to reliable and trusted box that IS
mircea_popescu: because fuck you, that's why.
asciilifeform: 'this house has a toilet' 'i'ma shit in this chair' 'waaai' 'fuck you that's why' ..?
mircea_popescu: hey. dns is dns.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Mebbe a roundup, it's just the empire's dns bookkeeping
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> remind me, how << Blockchain bloats to death, merge mined with Bitcoin so little incentive for miners to include any data... the reasons go on-anon
BingoBoingo: So who is applying to the Trump Transition team as TMSR ambassador?
BingoBoingo nominates pete_dushenski
asciilifeform: why not BingoBoingo ^
mircea_popescu: they take foreign immigrant mexican latinos ?!
BingoBoingo: I am applying to position of making grass green again!
asciilifeform: also asciilifeform's pet will be applying
asciilifeform: (why, i have nfi, imho nuttery)
mircea_popescu: why shouldn't she ?
asciilifeform: also ben_vulpes probably could but he has 'real job'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 0 good reason. (doesn't strike me as ideal work for extreme introvert folk who leave the house every month at best, but what do i know)
mircea_popescu: bwahaha i just for the first time read about the whole javascript native prototype reset thing. Number.prototype.valueOf = function(){return 42;} srsly ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform maybe she's looking to start a new life as grabee.
asciilifeform: it must've been a 'fortran can and we can too!1111' sort of thing
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lel, was what i said
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes but if you get to inject code into any of these shits, the whole shebang where they get imported collapses. say you hijack google's tracking bs and put a sprinkling of that in there.
mircea_popescu: hello end of shit-web.
asciilifeform: well yes, you can set 2=1 etc
mircea_popescu: lol DEFENSIVE SEMICOLON
mircea_popescu: o god this paid off.
asciilifeform: (incidentally js is 'expressive' enough to... 'rowhammer'. so why settle for small change, burn entire box)
BingoBoingo: "Under Secretary of Agriculture for Research, Education, and Economics" << Is this pretentious enough title for a lord infiltrating the Great Again to apply for or should I just go Secretary of Agriculture?
mircea_popescu: why not something actually appropriate ? TMSR envoy, something RSA, whatevs
asciilifeform: if mr.t hires a d00d for this post who had ever actually agricultured, i for one will be mega-disappoint.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Because that seems like a job for a Canadian and we are down to one of those.
mircea_popescu: !!up yale
deedbot: yale voiced for 30 minutes.
BingoBoingo: Anyways if I am in the USDA maybe I can advance the cause of complete bermudagrass eradication?
mircea_popescu: why not do something that makes sense ?
BingoBoingo: Because still the evil empire.
BingoBoingo will think on this
mircea_popescu: welll... you're living in it...
BingoBoingo: I guess I am.
BingoBoingo: Holy shit I'm already an elder statesman of the Republic!
BingoBoingo: Eh, I might as well.
trinque: did I miss trump putting an add on craigslist or something?
trinque: *ad
a111: Logged on 2016-11-15 16:59 asciilifeform: speaking of public amusement, word is that ~all~ 3,000 or so obummer 'staffers' are quitting. and now being replaced.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-16 00:15 BingoBoingo: In other domain names https://www.greatagain.gov/
BingoBoingo: "Please describe why you hope to be a part of the President Elect's administration:" << my answer "Through working my program with my sponsor I believe I am ready to let go, let God, and offer myself completely to the work of summoning The Great Again."
trinque: he shouldn't need that many people to turn off lights and lock doors.
BingoBoingo figures what's the worst that could happen. It's been a few years since the FBI knocked on my door.
mod6: haha
mircea_popescu: trinque there's that many for the ~same reason highschool dorks move in packs. WHAT IF A GIRL SAYS SOMETHING
mircea_popescu: need each other for moral support.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo if nothing else they might send valium.
trinque: lol
trinque: "I'm gonna go talk to Merkel. I'm gonna do it."
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Valium is bad for my spiritual condition.
mircea_popescu: well trump doesn't have the obamaproblem. for one thing - grabbing. for the other, he has some practice with "on your back, mel"
mircea_popescu: incidentally, how many fellows here present have discovered the wonder of the sixty degree fuck ?
asciilifeform: which one
trinque can think of two
asciilifeform: 60 fits into 360 more even than 2x
trinque: yeah but two I find interesting!
asciilifeform: (and degrees between what, nose and toe? whose ?)
mircea_popescu: you know, when woman (that's a) sufficiently toned and b) sufficently meaty, esp on ass and thighs) spreads her legs 60° with knees straight. so you can momentum-fuck her.
asciilifeform: this may need illustration
mircea_popescu: no ready way to illustrate sadly.
mod6: haha
trinque: this plus arms held back, chick across side of bed or other surface
asciilifeform: trinque: for some reason i pictured -- vertical
mircea_popescu: but in general she acts as resonator.
mircea_popescu: nono she's on her back.
asciilifeform: (i've picture mircea_popescu & co. on circus trapeze ever since his tale of the semicircular loop thing)
mircea_popescu: no, as her thighs and pubic muscles lock she produces this assemblage which resonates somewhere around 1.3-1.7hz
mircea_popescu: depends on weight. if she's too light it runs away far above what you can touch ; if more fat than a 2-3% or so it dampens.
mircea_popescu: but there's a sweet spot, and boy is it sweet.
ben_vulpes: legs parallel to bed or at an angle from that as well?
mircea_popescu: peeerpendicular even
mircea_popescu retrospectively realises he's made a pretty shitty description.
mircea_popescu: also bbl.
ben_vulpes: i thought this was kindergarten fuckatronix
a111: Logged on 2016-11-16 03:55 asciilifeform: also ben_vulpes probably could but he has 'real job'
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: What are you applying for?
ben_vulpes: diddly squat.
ben_vulpes: devil will have to get off his arse and make me an offer for my time.
a111: Logged on 2015-03-27 00:32 mircea_popescu: but that aside, it all boils down to the ancient (here and iirc on trilema too) "what's the devil have to pay you to love him" thing.
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