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← 2016-10-30 | 2016-11-01 → ↓
mircea_popescu: i thought it was 1.5 stuff
mircea_popescu: anyway, the linked github is like the first laddel piece over a few dozen words that nevertheless made sense from end to end.
jurov: so, mcclim/climacs is apparently usable now? will defo look into it
jurov: so far tried to make app with Qt bindings (commonqt), it worked but with lots of glue
jurov: "Emacs pretends GTK+ is an old-fashioned Xt toolkit. The entire Emacs philosophy is to force $MODERN_THING to behave just like Xt just like a 1960s TTY. Emacs does awful things to GTK+ to maintain this illusion."
jurov: and dude grafted double buffering on top of that
trinque: Internally, Emacs still belives it’s a text program, and we pretend Xt is a text terminal, and we pretend GTK is an Xt toolkit. It’s a fractal of delusion. << hahaha oh christ
mircea_popescu: i don't get it. what exactly can it be other than "a text program" ?
mircea_popescu: also there's this kickass bird that sits on my balcony and sings the shit out of it!
asciilifeform: 'I am a sinner. Unrepentant. Damned. Thusly, for me, Emacs flickers constantly. I hate flicker. I love Emacs. Something has to change. I decided to hack Emacs to eliminate this antediluvian flickering.' << i am hearing about this flicker for the first time.
mircea_popescu: how could EMACS flicker ?
asciilifeform: i've used emacs on pentium1 under bsd, on whatever, even on this year's crapple boxen, etc. and never saw this flicker.
asciilifeform: and i don't use the terminal emacs either
asciilifeform: so that isn't why.
asciilifeform: it simply doesn't happen on any box of mine.
mircea_popescu: this sounds a lot like "my car engine doesn't run smooth so i'm going to fix the steering wheel, gas pedal etc."
asciilifeform: (probably because it never shares a display with anything)
mircea_popescu: how about taking the fucking water out of the gasoline, for starters!
asciilifeform: 'Emacs uses an X11 extension, DOUBLE-BUFFER, largely seen as an historical artifact. There are other hacks I didn’t describe, like putting scrollbars in their own X11 window, contrary to the intent and design of the GTK people. This extension allows us to reuse our existing drawing code and redirect it to an off-screen buffer. GTK+ or Lucid or Motif or whatever we’re using is oblivious. My diff turns scrollbars and other widgets
asciilifeform: that share screen space with the double-buffered region into independent X windows. Overall, it’s a giant hack.' << this is guaranteed to break it on all of my systems
asciilifeform: where i use 'ratpoison'
asciilifeform: which does not take kindly to spawning shitwindows.
mircea_popescu: ugh what the
mircea_popescu: who thinks like this ?
asciilifeform: motherfucker, looks like this was the warning bell, as soon as this idiocy makes it into mainline emacs (and it will) i will have to maintain own fork.
asciilifeform: as naggum did.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well with any luck tmsr fork of emacs will be part of gossipd anyways.
asciilifeform: why not of kitchen sink also.
asciilifeform: and refrigerator.
mircea_popescu: hey. you gotta talk to user somewhere yes ?
mircea_popescu: what, i should use qt ?
asciilifeform: nobody cancelled x11.
mircea_popescu: sure, but you still need some sort of ide
asciilifeform: and in fact the reason the linked idiocy is so jaw-dropping is that the d00d broke the mightiest x11 proggy so as to fit his peculiar psychosis
mircea_popescu goes back to writing alt-feminist crazy.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: imho a correct gossipd simply emulates irc server on the user end.
asciilifeform: connect to whatever.
mircea_popescu: "emulates" how ? you want to import xchat ?
asciilifeform: (emacs, znc, wires in your teeth, any)
mircea_popescu: yes. so if it's emacs, then it's emacs, then we need to freeze a package of it or else face the eulora problem
mircea_popescu: explained here like last week.
asciilifeform: pretty easy to do while it is an x11 proggy.
asciilifeform: if you import gtkism or whatnot - impossible to freeze meaningfully.
mircea_popescu: so then.
mircea_popescu: emacs frozen as part of gossipd, other implementations allowed at user's discretion.
mircea_popescu: "if it dun work don't bother us - you broke it, you fix it."
trinque lives in emacs, has it as window-manager even, never sees flicker
trinque: the guy must be talking about having x11 windows overlap, and who does that anyway
asciilifeform: trinque: i suspect that it happens on windowdraggatronic wm's
trinque: yep
asciilifeform: on recent mac, i found that emacs is simply not usable at all unless in fullscreen mode, the contents become cga-like soup
asciilifeform: (but not flicker !!111111111)
mircea_popescu: well if the os fucks up the video buffers, anything will flicker.
asciilifeform: but who the fuck uses emacs nonfullscreen and why.
asciilifeform: and yes, 'ubuntu' and all similar, belong in the furnace.
mircea_popescu: you, apparently. /me recalls this discussion where he was using everything full screen and heathens balked.
asciilifeform: ahhaaa wat
asciilifeform: i use emacs strictly full screen. which is why i keep 4 screens.
trinque: ^ neglects to mention emacs windows
trinque: lel
asciilifeform: well those ain't 'windows' as far as wm is concerned
asciilifeform: so if emacs works, they work
trinque: sure
mircea_popescu: what, i should search ?
trinque: emacs has its own internal concept of "windows" aside from x11 windows
trinque: one emacs x11.window can have numerous emacs.windows within
trinque: split in panes
a111: Logged on 2016-08-19 18:39 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i've yet to use a "non-full-screen window" for anything.
asciilifeform: ah the one with the xterms
mircea_popescu: the one with the windows.
asciilifeform: ratpoison cuts displays apart into ports which behave quite the same as separate display.
asciilifeform: so i dun have 'windows' in the customary sense here.
asciilifeform: they don't move.
asciilifeform: and physically cannot overlap.
mircea_popescu: yeah well that is not really what anyone thinks of when they see the word.
asciilifeform: probably not.
mircea_popescu: shall be henceforth alfindows.
asciilifeform notes, for the record, that he did not write 'ratpoison', it was made long ago
asciilifeform: but abandoned, author went off to do something weird with commonlisp
mircea_popescu: hey, sometimes being the only one who uses something makes you more than being the only one who wrote it.
asciilifeform: point; it has been a very long time since i ran into anyone else who used it.
mircea_popescu: (retrospectively it is evident this proggy had a large formative impact in young alf, hence all the vermin references.)
trinque: stumpwm aint bad
asciilifeform: trinque: not so hot on a box with 64M
trinque: true
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it did, when i found it, i had been using various 'light' (e.g., 'flwm') wm, and the switchover felt quite like if you had lived with mice, rats, lice, all of your life, and then finally learned to kill'em
asciilifeform: and even now, using it is somewhat like not having lice in 18th c
asciilifeform: folks dun even fully grasp, 'whaddayamean, shaved yer head ??' 'no, have hair, but 0 lice' 'yer a liar'
trinque couldn't stand writing one command "open all the shit I use to work on project P" in multiple languages, the cost being stepping around various exwm bugs
trinque: gabriel_laddel can tell me when I can rewrite all my elisp in CL
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> but who the fuck uses emacs nonfullscreen and why. << Me, I use it like a "sticky note" on screen.
asciilifeform: 'You're the guy who hacked Dalvik on Android a few years back, aren't you? So that it would load your broken APKs that have millions of methods for unholy reasons, and break the app for your users when Dalvik updates and this predictably stops to work? Fitting that having created such horrors you would have to deal with other people's.' -- from the comments
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/a6N2T << peanut gallery re same. some choice lelz.
asciilifeform: 'How do you describe this flicker effect? I've never seen it.'
asciilifeform: 'As someone that been on HN for 9 years, pushing back on these kinds of comments is my business. This is my opinion on the value of you coming to Hacker News to complain about the author's writing style, and secondarily aimed at other commenters here. Your style of just summarily shitting on how the author wrote this piece adds no value to the discussion. Clearly lots of other people like it, this has been the #1 piece on HN for hour
asciilifeform: s. If you don't like it, no one is forcing you to read it or asking for your opinion.'
mircea_popescu: wait wait, waaaait. it being #1 now is a criteria ?
asciilifeform: apparently !
mircea_popescu: damn, i wish we knew that back when phuctor story was #1 for half a day. such arguments!
asciilifeform: 'why japanese toilets never caught on in america' !111111
mircea_popescu: why exactly is criticizing idiots "not adding to the conversation" ?
mircea_popescu: very weird, the list of nonsense these people sprout. it's as if they have 0 reflexive capacity whatsoever, how am i supposed to distinguish google "ai" from some douche who spits out " Your style of just summarily shitting on how the author wrote this piece adds no value to the discussion." ?
asciilifeform: eh you already know how folx who refuse to buy into the idiocy-of-the-day and 'add value to the discussion' are welcomed in the ninjashogunnery.
mircea_popescu: also, just in case anyone had any doubts - vlc is thoroughly broken. no historical package up to 0.7 (ie five years ago) is capable of compiling (fails because can't find dbus >= 1.0.0 which you know, 2006)
mircea_popescu: and i can't be bothered with packages prior.
asciilifeform: thing's been b0rk3d for eons.
mircea_popescu: somehow i had working copies. i guess ima have to move them to new systems somehow or wtf.
asciilifeform: welcome to how the asciilifeformside lives.
trinque: iirc mplayer's list of deps is a bit shorter
mircea_popescu: i never used it
mircea_popescu: i think i have copies of vlc that i've been using since 2007 or so
asciilifeform: mplayer still worx.
mircea_popescu: i guess ima have to look into it
mircea_popescu: just hwat i love.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's a commandline proggy.
asciilifeform: has separate modules for the raster output (including even an ascii one...)
shinohai: works very nicely for streaming youtube vids without all the ad crap
mircea_popescu: yeh but i dun have it so... ima have to look into it!
asciilifeform: when i learned that mircea_popescu watches his pr0n on an ibm t40, i could not picture it as with anything but mplayer
asciilifeform: which is what i watched with on t40.
asciilifeform: (and now.)
BingoBoingo: mplayer, parole, there's a spectrum on non-VLC players
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: iirc 'parole' is a gtkism ?
BingoBoingo: And Xchat is? Anyways its not a VLC!
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: xchat (last i tried... has been a while) still built without dbus
asciilifeform: but who knows, now.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i have liek, old laptops etc.
asciilifeform: well yes, i also.
mircea_popescu: i think i may have a winamp somewhere also
asciilifeform: l0l, i recall the thread, it was on an ancient mac wasn't it
mircea_popescu: aha. i have tons of these things, not touched for >10+ years etc
mircea_popescu: defo not prepared to cogently argue the whys and wherefores of software decisions over a decade old
asciilifeform: for some reason i thought that mircea_popescu cremated all of these when he moved out of ro
mircea_popescu: also should prolly be said i dun actually watch any porn.
asciilifeform: well whatever those italian things were.
mircea_popescu: well, i guess the livestream of my livingroom irl should count and that sorta thing. but i've not been following teh industry in just about a decade by now.
mircea_popescu: in which interval i doubt i watched a full hour of pronz.
mircea_popescu: i suppose i should actually remedy this huh.
mircea_popescu: oh THAT IS CINEMA!!1
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2016/the-good-book-of-progrethics-and-moralssive-behaviour/ << Trilema - The Good Book of Progrethics and Moralssive Behaviour
mircea_popescu: come to think about it i'm getting fucking ridiculous over here, "oh, mp is against drugs and pot and doesn't watch porn and totally straightedge".
mircea_popescu: ima go pour myself a triple and write a scathing piece about fugazi and mackaye
phf: that buttery-smooth-emacs was a torture to read. it's like a text equivalent of those "heeeeeeeyyy guys it's me i'm back with yet another!! hello!!" youtube videos
mircea_popescu: check out the boxxy fan
asciilifeform: phf: they're d00dz in their 20s, what do you expect them to look like, who else works in salt mines
trinque: he's talking about the cuckgrin and weird goatee, I'm sure
phf: ^
asciilifeform: ah i just assumed it was the sop grin of narcissist staring into camera lens
asciilifeform: (i imagine that a pyro makes the same face into a fire, a zoophiliac - while pounding into the sow; etc)
trinque: reminds my of my parents idiot dog that nervously stares at you as if to say "I am good boy???"
trinque: narcissist self-sustains; that thing needs pats on the head
mircea_popescu: phf no the backgrounds are different.
mircea_popescu: i can tell by some pixels.
mircea_popescu: trinque dog needs more woods time.
trinque: oh yeah, it's going mad in the house
trinque: I watched it last week, treated it like a dog, and it was fine
mircea_popescu: i watched yest the greatest thing ever. people took dog out to park, nice flat coated retriever. young, fulla life.
mircea_popescu: it made a bird friend! the bird would swoop in squaking, feet in front of the dog, who'd chase it like crazy, then once it's mommentum ran out the bird'd wingflap to the closest tree, rest a little and swoop again.
mircea_popescu: that dog ran 30mph for a solid 20 minutes until it fell on its face.
thestringpuller: pets are the best work out buddies.
mircea_popescu: i dunno what the bird was even, some kind of crow.
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/t0uXi << in other 'olds', usg ministry of wunderwaffen has cryptocrackpottery directorate. entertaining.
mircea_popescu: i have no fucking idea how they imagine physical security is to work in the hands of an adversary.
mircea_popescu: pro tip : you can still jumpstart cars today as in 1916
mircea_popescu: also i have nfi how they imagine reality works, but in principle it's true that "the random process of nuclear decay is the gold standard of rngs" FOR THE REASON that you can't use arithmetics to distinguish one clump of radioactive substance from "another" clump.
mircea_popescu: this should be fucking evident, either they're biased or they're not biased.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: fwiw the idea was to make it cheaper to make own nuke than to recycle opponent's.
mircea_popescu: golden toilet aside, the major expense is geting the clump of plutonium
mircea_popescu: that'll work whatever incantations you read on it.
mircea_popescu: "oh, we broke this plutonium". orly ?
asciilifeform: and if the 'found' pu is in a boobytrapped chest that noncritically disassembles itself and poisons a square km of your own warehouse if you mis-guess a bit, you have not won, neh ?
mircea_popescu: yes, but reality is more encompassing than engineering. so suppose i submerge the chest in fumaric acid and you lose.
mircea_popescu: you can't predict what i'll do, and you can't ensure against all the things i might do.
mircea_popescu: very much square law.
asciilifeform: recall the las vegas casino bomb thread ?
mircea_popescu: notrly ?
asciilifeform: mines generally win the mine-vs-sapper game. which is why modern-day minefields are typically cleared by, one way or another, setting them off, rather than digging up ww2-style.
mircea_popescu: but the key factor there is that mines are not valuable.
mircea_popescu: thieves generally win the safe-vs-thief game.
asciilifeform: but i suspect that the acid will win in mircea_popescu's case. nuke builder does not want to make the booby overly sensitive, killing himself
mircea_popescu: which is why modern-day banks are typically not even safe'd.
asciilifeform: eh banks are full of fiatola, what's it cost to print moar.
asciilifeform: quite different thing.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform problem is that the deck is stacked so much against people. plutonium is like gold, inert chemically, very heavy, etc. it stands out in physical reality like a naked supermodel among a coder convention.
asciilifeform: well yes, you win vs the mine, get pile of pu. which you now gotta machine (ever machine a pyrophoric ?), rebuild the explosive lenses, detonators, neutron source, get moar tritium somewhere (where?), etc.
asciilifeform: this costs.
mircea_popescu: yes, all "costs", esp in the sense that if your industrial base sucks, you don't get one.
mircea_popescu: but if your industrial base dun suck, pu pile is still the more expensive part.
asciilifeform: and if your industrial base is any good, you can refine own pu. with the 'forbidden' laser method.
asciilifeform: u is quite common in the planet's crust.
mircea_popescu: in the end, all this is an exact re-do of the "car ingnition control dun work" "hey it keeps the methheads at bay" "aokthen"
asciilifeform: approx.
asciilifeform: and i picture that it is largely against meatheads from... own side
mircea_popescu: rather likely.
trinque recalls when nuke commander whatshisname was fired
asciilifeform: general ripper: 'take this thing to the garage and hotwire it' grunt: 'i dunno how to make new detonator, the old one melted when i popped the cover with 3 wrong passwords'
mircea_popescu: which is not even without merit : the next wikileaks may not leak words.
trinque: when you can't trust those, your problem lies not in engineering...
mircea_popescu: people somehow bought into this "public opinion as an aggregate of the supposed opinions of irrelevant individual cattle MATTERS!!1", and so we had wikileaks.
mircea_popescu: as ~everyone with two neurons to rub together has been disabused of this notion, the next guy who wants to change.org might as well point a nuke to the white house.
asciilifeform: sorta why potus since bush-II or so spends maybe 1 day in 20 in there.
asciilifeform: when it cannot be helped.
mircea_popescu: but the idea is to raze the anthill not the ants.
asciilifeform: i always wondered if the very sad infrastructure in washington, a kind of frozen-in-time 1970s theme park, is at least partly on account of the expectation that anthill will be leveled 'any day'
mircea_popescu: note in passing that one of the more substantial objections "people in the know" aka niggers raise to a trump presidency is that "he won't be able to staff wh, he could barely staff his campaign".
mircea_popescu: somehow they elide the obvious point that his right move, and his coherent with himself move, is to simply FIRE EVERYONE and then hire people as he perceives the need.
mircea_popescu: first week, wifey can cook, once she's tired of it white house gets its first cook.
asciilifeform: the last potus who tried to fire plum book folk got kennedied.
mircea_popescu: ivanka can pick up phones until old man trump thinks she had enough, at which point wh gets its first secretary
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform now you know why it's getting bombed.
asciilifeform: incidentally here's a possible litmus: did mr t accept the 'free' guards traditionally given to candidates, or keep using own ?
mircea_popescu: they all live closeby too, because dun wanna commute until they get blinkenlichten, and so double kill.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that is a complicated point.
asciilifeform: if he's using the praetorian guard, we know the endgame
phf: !~later tell gabriel_laddel have you considered putting ~everything~ masamune into a single tree, prepatched, so that instead of "load X, then load my patch-foo-for-X" you just have everything under single hierarchy exactly the way you expect it to run in production?
jhvh1: phf: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: you could just do this yourself neh ?
mircea_popescu: (in the process benefiting him by exposing bugs he dun know about)
trinque: the framing of it there is lulzy
asciilifeform: trinque: lulzy, neato
asciilifeform: 'Throughout the 15 months he’s been running for president, Donald Trump’s campaign has paid private security contractors at least $432,201' << this seems cheap
asciilifeform: what's 1 guard paid? 100k/y ?
trinque: the piece is a hit on his security practices
trinque: "What's the matter Mr. Trump? We already provided you bodyguards!"
phf: well, if he thinks that's a good idea, he might potentially save me a bunch of work :}
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> pro tip : you can still jumpstart cars today as in 1916 << Some German "innovashuns" are exceptions. Unless your bar for "jumpstarting" only carries to turning motor over then still true.
trinque: phf: it's getting interesting right? it's not the final solution, but it'd be a step up from emacs if it works.
trinque: and it'd be nice just to lean on mcclim real hard and see what breaks
asciilifeform: '“I would highly doubt that they’re armed,” he said, “that poses a greater threat. Normally, standard operating procedure for the Secret Service is to never have armed security around our protectee—ever. Even working closely with sworn law enforcement officers around the protectee is a very delicate situation.”' << lel, no word on whether clitler and the monkey disarmed mr t's guards, but... we'll PRETEND! they did. appar
asciilifeform: ently this does something.
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/VMkMn << moar lulz from same rag.
asciilifeform: '... just over a week before the presidential election, top Democrats are demanding that he level the playing field and disclose what the FBI knows about Republican nominee Donald Trump’s possible ties to the Russian government.'
phf: trinque: i'd like to at least try it out. i'm unconvinced clim is a good idea, because there aren't any good implementations. mcclim is terribly over-engineered (in the best of java style, with delegates for proxies etc.), clim codebase that lispworks/allegro share is less so, but more hacky. which makes me wonder if clim spec itself is suspect
phf: in before asciilifeform's "clim is evil because athena"
asciilifeform: nah mainly because slow as molasses
asciilifeform: (i'm still waiting for somebody to tell me which cray i gotta buy for it to work in MOTHERRFUCKING REAL TIME)
trinque: mmmm working quickly over here
phf: i'm trying to spin up at least one instance of lispworks/allegro clim to see if it might be faster, but so far it's proving... difficult.
trinque: but like I said, want to lean on it to find out, not decided by any means
asciilifeform: ooh i almost forgot, on the cray i'll need a $10k payware lisp, yes
trinque: And former Trump campaign adviser Carter Page is alleged to have visited with two Russian government officials in a possible effort to open a diplomatic backchannel with the Kremlin, according to U.S. officials. << my god, talking with russians!
trinque: asciilifeform: running mcclim over here on a puny armhf without lag
asciilifeform: trinque: what's running in it ?
trinque: on ccl with their own clx
asciilifeform: (how may character on screen? vector font? scrolling ?)
trinque: ttf, just a screen with some gadgets that update periodically with new data
asciilifeform: that doesn't sound like an interactive proggy
asciilifeform: so what sense does it make to say 'no lag' if it eats no input ?!
trinque: screen's updated with same events that are fired from user input.
trinque: I know the latency precisely
asciilifeform: so could trinque write 'word perfect' clone in it , and 0 lag ?
asciilifeform: would be interesting demo, i'll watch.
trinque yawns
trinque: goalpost moving eh?
phf: asciilifeform: it's possible they sped it up since last time we tried it
asciilifeform: trinque: 0 palpable delay between key and event was always the standard, and will forever remain the standard.
trinque: I'm comparing it to other tk
trinque: you're comparing it to god's own computer
trinque: yeah yeah
trinque: release the system; I'll use
asciilifeform: i'm comparing it to motherfucking 'word perfect' on msdos 5.
trinque: so broomstick
asciilifeform: (in related news, apparently new crapple boxes lack not only f-keys, but ESC !)
trinque: this is much better than the Qt I used for this same application before
asciilifeform: trinque: in all fairness, i have nfi what you used before, maybe it was a telegraphist drawing on chalkboard. so yes, faster.
phf: trinque: "dog slow" is a term of art, and it's inherent in mcclim design, because of how it's layered. "feels fast to me" is the worst possible measure of it. asciilifeform is not being particularly precise with his terminology, but you will run into dog slow once you start trying out corner cases (long unwrapped lines, fast rapid draws, massive repl outputs)
trinque: sometimes you're a completely ridiculous man, you know.
trinque: lol
asciilifeform: 'dog slow' means that i can feel delays.
asciilifeform: if i can feel delays, it is slow.
asciilifeform: what is so arcane about this
asciilifeform: the example earlier, 'word perfect on msdos 5', has ~0 perceptible delays. and this was on the junkiest hardware ~ever sold as a comp.
trinque: phf: there's no suck fucking feels fast
trinque: I can tell you precisely how long redisplay-frame-pane or w/e takes depending on what's updated
trinque: *such
asciilifeform: phf: i dun see why 'inherent', if i gotta buy a hardware accelerator, i'll buy
phf: asciilifeform: i can feel delays in x11 emacs after working on a hardware terminal, which makes me conclude that "feels" kind of changes once you get used to it. i can't use popular hipster software for example, because it's definitely slower
asciilifeform: (but there first has to be such a thing)
phf: asciilifeform: inherent, because of how many layers message needs to pass through in order to do a key-press <-> render roundtrip. accelerator is not going to help there
trinque: I do not make decisions in life about what to do today based on somebody else's imagined tomorrow.
trinque: if clim gets too slow for any of my use cases I'll find out where and work on it
trinque: if that proves impossible I'll move just like I did from commonqt
asciilifeform: trinque: i asked that you compare to a very factual 'yesterday', rather than imagined futures
trinque: the fuck, I'm supposed to develop for DOS now?
asciilifeform: not necessarily
asciilifeform: but in many ways the move to multiuser os on home comp was a bait-and-switch scam
asciilifeform: and full of very questionable wins.
phf: trinque: i don't think anyone's telling you what to do, but to honestly consider what you can observe, and compare it to what we can observe. asciilifeform is saying that clim is slow for him, i'm saying that there's something in clim design that makes it tricky to make it fast. it's a converstion.
asciilifeform: see, i am willing to buy 10k box, or whatnot, to get fast clim. but i am not willing to close eyes and call a turd sausage.
phf: anyway, i want to try and deploy masamune, but i'm also trying to spin up clim2 to see if it's maybe less of a dog (i imagine it would be since it was probably battle optimized for all that ported-from-legacy contractor software)
trinque: whatever emotional tic this is whereby any mention of departure from turd island is not nearly far enough (!!1!!1) is no sort of conversation
trinque: but I will do some benchmarking, should be interesting
asciilifeform: trinque can use whatever he likes on his box, but if i run a proggy and have to count '1, 2, 3,...' after pressing a key and before seeing screen draw, it goes in the shit bin.
asciilifeform: it is one thing if the proggy's job is to compute molecular dynamics of protein in solvent.
asciilifeform: then it is fine if it wants to run for a month.
asciilifeform: when i ran chirality numbers for al schwartz, it took ~6 mo of cluster. and that's small change.
asciilifeform: but text editor ? fuhgetit.
trinque: mkay. so the simulation part of your program has someting to do with how fast the display part runs?
trinque: that seems stupid.
asciilifeform: these had 0 realtime display.
asciilifeform: is the point.
asciilifeform: if proggy's job is to let me fiddle something in real time, there must be 0 palpable delay. you would not put up with a light switch that takes random(5,10) seconds to light, and to switch off.
trinque: your bare assertion that there's some kind of inherent lag in the redisplay loop does not meet my observations, i.e. right now on my desk
asciilifeform: the 'inherent' thing was phf's observation.
asciilifeform: i have nfi if it were inherent - or not.
asciilifeform: only that i barfed mightily the last time i tried to clim.
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560409 << guy looks like he's still trying to scrape credits out of the empire
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 00:19 trinque: https://github.com/gabriel-laddel/clim << this would've been a fine use for V
ben_vulpes: if the upside in the empire is 2k with diversity statements and safe spaces and codes of conduct...
trinque: I guess it's not clear that I'm proposing *eating* mcclim, hence what I said to g_l
ben_vulpes: fuck it. do it for tmsr~ the same way anyone else in the republic does it: because it's worth doing.
phf: well, mcclim layers things in a way that i thought was part of the spec, but turns out it was beach's decision (to among other things support multiple different backends). when i was trying to optimize the x11 backend last time, i was hitting multiple "independent" layers, that all demanded attention. there wasn't really an 80/20 solution, which made me conclude that there's not a single subtrate that you can optimize (the way, say,
phf: blit operations are your 80% in a traditional display framework), which usually is a sign of "too many layers"
trinque: I'm irritated he didn't genesis v-patch the thing
ben_vulpes: trinque: me too.
trinque: phf: g_l wants to rip out all backends but CLX iirc, which sounds like it allows for fixing that
ben_vulpes: i'm less up in arms about the vpatch than i am about continuing to lend credence to imperial operations like github et al. "dear mcclim donor".
asciilifeform: and what happens when i wanna plant the thing on bare vga later ?
phf: not unless on top of your multiple layers you start introducing action from distance.
asciilifeform: now gotta roll in x forever ?
trinque: rewrite mcclim in whole
trinque: none of this multiple points of bring your own feelings bullshit
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/ym9JT << in other lulz, this just in
phf: i found an old screenshot from last time i was hacking on clim :D http://glyf.org/screenshots/clim.png
trinque: heh such clim, much circle
asciilifeform reads the linked item and mentally pictures it in 'hollywood ru' nonsense voice from 'red october', 'beautiful mind', and other lulgems of 'languages? we dun do these, school is for phootball'
trinque: asciilifeform: really sounds like factional wars inside usg eh?
asciilifeform: or cheap circus
trinque: phf: what's going on with the title bar there? weird rendering artifacts?
phf: trinque: it's a cyberpunk-ish theme hack from back when you could customize os x's look and feel
asciilifeform: in the tarball, list of pwned boxes, ip/hostname, creds for some usg proprietary backorifice-style client.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560707 << it's not so simple though. a lot of revolving door, you know, same one dork could be both.
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 17:39 trinque: "What's the matter Mr. Trump? We already provided you bodyguards!"
asciilifeform: mostly east asia, some ru.
asciilifeform: linux/solaris, if the comments in the configs are to be believed.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560712 << the point is valid, however. armed escort is for armed lord, not for talk derps.
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 17:43 asciilifeform: '“I would highly doubt that they’re armed,” he said, “that poses a greater threat. Normally, standard operating procedure for the Secret Service is to never have armed security around our protectee—ever. Even working closely with sworn law enforcement officers around the protectee is a very delicate situation.”' << lel, no word on whether clitler and the monkey disarmed mr t's guards, but... we'll PRETEND! they did. appar
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/10/mainstream-media-clinton-emails-already-baked-in-to-polls/ << Qntra - Mainstream Media: Clinton Emails Already "Baked In" To Polls
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 17:45 asciilifeform: '... just over a week before the presidential election, top Democrats are demanding that he level the playing field and disclose what the FBI knows about Republican nominee Donald Trump’s possible ties to the Russian government.'
trinque spends too much time trying to read lips
trinque: might be "you bitch" with last syllable cut off
BingoBoingo: Step 1: I am powerless over lulz and my lyfe has become unmanageable!
phf: girl with no butt enjoying much butt
mircea_popescu: they're not speaking english. like you know, most females that a) ever get fucked and b) someone'd ever contemplate fucking
mircea_popescu: btw phf the definition of that dog slow term of art ?
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 17:56 trinque: I do not make decisions in life about what to do today based on somebody else's imagined tomorrow.
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 18:16 asciilifeform: https://archive.is/ym9JT << in other lulz, this just in
asciilifeform: might be lulzy to cross-check with phuctor, ben_vulpes's trb nodes' banhammer lists, etc.
BingoBoingo kept telling self *this* is last US election qntricle before results, but emergent lulz flow from artesian laff fountain
asciilifeform: ' @GCHQ @Belgacom TheShadowBrokers is making special effort not to using foul language, bigotry, or making any funny. Be seeing if NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX is making stories about now? Maybe political hacks is being more important? '
mircea_popescu: should have prolly run uci on them rather. but of course no uci yet.
asciilifeform: they're running obummer's uci.
trinque: mircea_popescu: I can't develop on that imagined computer any more than Eulora wrote its own OS.
trinque: that one might have to do that for both cases in the future granted.
mircea_popescu: trinque wasn't waht i meant. just, your spring sprung too far s'all
trinque: got ya.
mircea_popescu: "CIA is cyber B-Team, yes? Where is cyber A-Team?" << i lollered. where, they're gone, locked in alf's basement.
asciilifeform: 'How is being stolen goods if no one is claiming ownership?'
asciilifeform: i - also lolllered.
mircea_popescu: anyway. the guy has it, the us lost air superiority sometime in 2010ish and lost cyber presence cca 2015. they're on par with serbia today.
mircea_popescu: what this has to do with their failure to obey the republic will, of course, never be documented.
asciilifeform: poor sods will have to go on spamforum and spend another hundy to buy new chumpnet.
mircea_popescu: if only.
mircea_popescu: the us does not have the intellectual capacity to develop new tools in general, and computing in particular. all they have is inherited, and everything they lose is irreplaceable.
mircea_popescu: which is why doorko coin imports prb.
asciilifeform: i'm still waiting to see them lose something expensive, e.g., the intel/amd microcode booby.
asciilifeform: let'em buy a new ~that~.
asciilifeform: as it is, ru derps still feel comfortable running 'outlook' on winblows 10.
mircea_popescu: i dunno about that.
mircea_popescu: odds are teh usg wrote its own imaginary emails in an outlook server, if you mean the recent thing.
asciilifeform: i have deeply nfi, but do know that winblows is pestilentially universal in ru, in all walks of life
asciilifeform: and that the elbrusistic 'we'll make indigenous base' thing never took off.
mircea_popescu: some don't walk.
asciilifeform: because, today just as in 1980, it is very difficult to 'compete with 3111111117 w4r3z
asciilifeform: which seems like great deal, until your pipeline explodes etc.
asciilifeform: aha some don't walk. there was a photo leaked of a radar base, where they had one of the few completed elbrus. in the corner desk there was what looked like winblows. nfi, could be hangout, perhaps the 'indigenous base' happened, strictly in ru meta-nsa.
asciilifeform: the winblows vista - painted on, for show, for us rubes.
asciilifeform: but the more likely thing is that the money was spent on mercedes and coke, and - they run win98, yes.
asciilifeform: because making indigenousbase is, in reality, very, very expensive.
asciilifeform: and the roi, by any 'sane' measure, is 0.
mircea_popescu: xilinx.e-technik.uni-rostock.de___139.30.202.12/ << lol!
mircea_popescu: i suspect this list may not be entirely correct. looks autogenerated.
asciilifeform: who the hell knows, until at least one pwned chump digs up the backorifice and posts.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo "Naturally there is *no way* that this introduction of the "baked in" line's introduction could have been coordinated." <
asciilifeform: ( 'insane measure', oblig thread, http://btcbase.org/log/2014-11-24#933189 )
a111: Logged on 2014-11-24 22:58 asciilifeform: jurov: tank is a particular type of tractor, let's say. it cultivates sovereignty (or did, in the age of the tank, but why nitpick) rather than edibles.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560787 << considering what passes for light fixtures these days, lol!
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 18:09 asciilifeform: if proggy's job is to let me fiddle something in real time, there must be 0 palpable delay. you would not put up with a light switch that takes random(5,10) seconds to light, and to switch off.
mircea_popescu: my call times out, thereby let us point out to phf that what calling something a term of art means is that you have a ready and perfect definition of the term in the respective context. no exceptions.
mircea_popescu: as far as anyone knows, dog slow kinda means exactly that "irritatingly slow to me", to which "i don't feel any delays" is a valid counter.
phf: mircea_popescu: dog slow is same as intractable but applied to system design, solution that theoretically works but in practice takes too long to be useful. depending on the kind of algorithms involved dog slow has different solutions, like if it's a linear algorithm, then you can solve dog slow with a faster machine, but if it's a polynomial complexity algorithm, then dog slow might be solved by putting constraints on inputs
mircea_popescu: oh is it ?
asciilifeform: the counter to 'i don't feel any delays' is to sit the 'not feeler' in front of wordperfect on msdos and watch his face as he says 'this dun feel any faster'
asciilifeform: unless he is an expert and malicious liar, the game is won.
phf: so depending on what sort of algorithms are used (i.e. knowing how mcclim works) a "get a faster machine" might be a valid response to "mcclim is slow", or it can be invalid, if, say, there's combinatorial exposition in the component interaction, or if there's a polynomial behavior in large text processing (those are two usual suspects)
mircea_popescu: i dun think that's the common meaning ; but if that's what you use, fair enuff.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what, because you have a magic ball and know wtf he's looking at as he says that ?
asciilifeform: but i also do not know if he has any experience with fast comp.
mircea_popescu: phf in my head, if the algo is correct but the problem too hard, then the problem is just too hard ; whereas if the algo is wrong for the problem, or badly implemented, then there's that. i suppose you could say "linear sort is dog slow", though.
asciilifeform: phf: picture if your car gives out, a decade from now, and you walk into a dealership, grudgingly buying new one. there, you learn that all new cars emit phosgene gas, some of which leaks into the cabin, and you gotta wear a mask. but this does not help against the microwaves that slowly roast yer balls, from the new type of waveguide transmission they use.
asciilifeform: you ask, quite reasonably, why all of this is there.
asciilifeform: because you KNOW that there used to be cars that did not roast balls, or emit phosgene into cabin.
asciilifeform: this is my reaction to clim, and same as to ms word 2010 and related abortions.
asciilifeform: because i USED realtime comp.
trinque: in what, 06?
asciilifeform: and again '10
jurov: lol why you must make such dire metaphors
trinque: my i7 isn't fast enough for ya?
asciilifeform: trinque: i have nfi, will have to try the new clim, won't i.
asciilifeform: perhaps - finally fast enough.
jurov: would be completely sufficient to say the reality - new cars with turbocharger have second lag from gas pedal
asciilifeform: (phf suggested earlier that it is not yet fast enough. so i put off trying.)
asciilifeform: jurov: then the 'new reality' can go fuck itself to death with red hot poker.
asciilifeform: and i will use the old reality.
phf: asciilifeform: i don't actually know about that, i gotta try it myself now :) i think we might've both tried it around the same time
jurov: asciilifeform: no you dream about emiting phosgene instead
trinque: my claim btw was *not* that it's perfect.
asciilifeform: the implicit claim was that i am somehow 'unreasonably' expecting realtime interaction with comp.
mircea_popescu: no dude.
trinque: ....
mircea_popescu: that's just what you read.
asciilifeform: aaaaha, lolk, it was what i read, what was actually there was proof of fermat's conjecture...
trinque: quote the line?
asciilifeform: trinque: i was answering 'that's just what you read'
trinque: to restate, and then I'm bored of this, getting no perceptable lag whatsoever between firing events to the event queue and seeing the screen redraw.
asciilifeform: neato. i will try this clim, at some point.
trinque: I will rape the thing with a huge benchmark and speak of it further at that time.
asciilifeform: for now, will tentatively take trinque's word, that it runs in real time on new iron at last.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo "Naturally there is *no way* that this introduction of the "baked in" line's introduction could have been coordinated." < << ty fxd
asciilifeform: understand, i have nothing against proggies that are slow because they are overly ambitious, common lisp on 386, 'quake' on 486-dx2 (i played, 5 frame/sec, yes), etc.
asciilifeform: what i ~do~ have a strongly developed allergy to is attempts to redefine minimal expectations using 'new realities'
asciilifeform: e.g., i still have not forgiven, and do not intend to forgive, the acpi 'soft' power supply switch.
asciilifeform: nor multi-minute boot times of 'modern' os, etc.
asciilifeform: the 'new realities' can be taken to someone who cares, in any and all cases.
asciilifeform: i do not point finger at trinque , this is here for the record strictly.
trinque: couldn't agree more that religion/ritual cannot drive design choices.
trinque: "I am doing the smart thing by using Lisp; what blemishes?"
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560716 << see also. when i hear 'delegates' i 'read for the luger'
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 17:45 phf: trinque: i'd like to at least try it out. i'm unconvinced clim is a good idea, because there aren't any good implementations. mcclim is terribly over-engineered (in the best of java style, with delegates for proxies etc.), clim codebase that lispworks/allegro share is less so, but more hacky. which makes me wonder if clim spec itself is suspect
asciilifeform: and my (few, and brief, admittedly) excursions into the code, did not end with walking away impressed with the workmanship or engineering quality of the edifice.
mircea_popescu: i dunno who cares about boot times, a machine that's booted isn't intended for serious use anyway
mircea_popescu: that was the lulz of all time with systemd coupla years ago, the "selling point" of "faster boot times. for servers."
mircea_popescu: from people who never ran servers, for people who never will run servers, with love & mucho concern.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560936 << i care in a few special cases.
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 19:37 mircea_popescu: i dunno who cares about boot times, a machine that's booted isn't intended for serious use anyway
asciilifeform: e.g., machines in work shed, connected to various cnc tools, powered up strictly while in use;
asciilifeform: various special-purpose boxen that boot, do $process, and shut off; etc.
asciilifeform: phf: l0l aha! somewhere in there is my 486...
mircea_popescu: sure. none of which run stuff made this decade anyway.
asciilifeform: sure as fuck not
phf: of course, how else would you do telemetry
asciilifeform: or i'd be sitting and getting frostbite waiting for boot.
phf: not to mention avionics
asciilifeform: but my objection is to the ~principle~ of the thing, 'what the FUCK are you doing for three whole minutes that msdos didn't need to do, and IT DIDN'T, you can't unhappen this'
asciilifeform: 'bbbbbut NEW REALITY!!1111'
asciilifeform: how long does it take to load 800MHz dram with full contents ? 100msec ?
asciilifeform: if you have a mechanical disk, add a second or so for it to spin up
asciilifeform: so where do the other 178.9 seconds come from??!
phf: lizard hitler tax
asciilifeform: and if os lived in rom like the gods intended, you won't need the 100msec either.
asciilifeform: proper, old-fashioned, godly, pre-ban ROM, not 'flash'.
asciilifeform: want new kernel ? pull out this here thing an' stuff in this here other.
asciilifeform: none of this 'there are 203 updates ready to install' lunacy.
asciilifeform: (recently i was handling some vaguely ubuntu-derived abortion and clicked 'no thx' and was treated to it loading ANYWAY)
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/10/centurylink-acquiring-level-3-as-internet-transit-routes-consolidates/ << Qntra - CenturyLink Acquiring "Level 3" As Internet Transit Routes Consolidates
ben_vulpes: !up gabriel_laddel
ben_vulpes: didja bring trinque a vpatch, gabriel_laddel ?
shinohai: !!up gabriel_laddel
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
ben_vulpes: lol thx shinohai
gabriel_laddel: ben_vulpes: Nope.
gabriel_laddel: phf: I have. It is called masamune, and you buy a discrete box from me that comes with everything on it.
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 03:33 trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560415 << lol, I'm under the impression that gabriel_laddel trolls logs for highlights with a script, or would've provided better context
gabriel_laddel: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560469 < would you mind reviewing arsttep? I'm shipping it with each machine as part of the manual and would like for others to be able to understand it.
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 04:04 mircea_popescu: anyway, the linked github is like the first laddel piece over a few dozen words that nevertheless made sense from end to end.
phf: oh i guess you pulled all the masamune material on account of selling it? i remember there was a bunch of dedicated content, that's no longer there (arsstep being one of them)
trinque: where are they going to be sold, what's included, how much?
gabriel_laddel: phf: Right.
gabriel_laddel: trinque: I'm just selling them by hand at the moment in the bay area (going to google for a scheme meetup to hawk product here in ~.5 hrs)
gabriel_laddel: When my life is less shit I'll be setting up a method by which in-WOT people can get it for free. You all, of course, will be able to sell the same product I am.
trinque: that "free" can run counter to the "life is less shit"
phf: trinque: wait, so what are you running? just own run of mcclim, or you actually have masamune deployed
trinque: idgaf about free compared to say *mcclim got finished*
phf is confused
gabriel_laddel: I've been charging $200 on top of the price of hardware, but as of today (and an extended navigator that indexes all symbols and their types) - 300
trinque: phf: former
gabriel_laddel: trinque: as for what is included: McCLIM integrated with: macsyma, femlisp, MJRCALC, a manual, nope.js and more-or-less broken prototypes of everything else on the splash screen screenshot.
asciilifeform: what is 'nope.js' ?
gabriel_laddel: translates js to parenscript and parenscript to js, integrated with the conkeror web browser (has same keybindings as emacs)
trinque just diddles firefox over mozrepl
trinque: my point of interest is developing climthings in a climthing
trinque: would pay for this *if done*
trinque: and more than you said there
phf: trinque: i found an old screenshot of doing that http://glyf.org/screenshots/mozrepl2.png
gabriel_laddel: trinque: I'm working on completing the whole CLIM environment, but am not there yet. Still have to tie all the new logic for reflective search for generic functions specialized on arbitrary types, lambda lists of length, and return values of type to the navigator.
gabriel_laddel: The inspector needs to have Isearch across all inspected objects, the graph walking facility needs to be integrated into the GUI..
trinque: well I'm not going anywhere :p
phf: gabriel_laddel: i wasn't thinking of selling your product, but i wouldn't mind trying to do the deployment on a own hardware
trinque: phf: heh neat
gabriel_laddel: phf: you can do whatever. It will be free for in-wot people and I encourage you all to turn it into money.
trinque: I can't help but see braindead open-sores-ism in that.
gabriel_laddel: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560441 < no mega-profits yet. Ramen profitable.
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 02:50 asciilifeform: where is the mega-profit he boasted of having from his worx ??
trinque: most here are not hurting for money and pay for actual tools
trinque: and the "free" can be an excuse to not produce a complete tool
trinque: death to "patches welcome"
trinque: not like I don't want the source, but you understand my meaning
deedbot: http://www.contravex.com/2016/10/31/bugatti-translated/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - Bugatti, translated.
gabriel_laddel: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560440 < 2.5k usd. Per month, until I bitched about it and it was knocked down to $600/mo - anyways, it isn't about the money, it's about him doing absolutely nothing with it and making a mess that someone will have to clean up.
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 02:49 asciilifeform: and over what did gabriel_laddel and this d00d quibble over, what was it, < 1k usd ?!
gabriel_laddel: Since then all he has done is play around with fonts to try and make them "cross platform" or something.
gabriel_laddel: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560716 < it may be that CLIM itself sucks -- but the implementation is 100% common lisp and is easy enough to mechanically alter if you have problems with it. Should tmsr~ decide to strip whatever features from CLIM and alter the spec, at least we have a codebase and spec to argue about and something working to us
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 17:45 phf: trinque: i'd like to at least try it out. i'm unconvinced clim is a good idea, because there aren't any good implementations. mcclim is terribly over-engineered (in the best of java style, with delegates for proxies etc.), clim codebase that lispworks/allegro share is less so, but more hacky. which makes me wonder if clim spec itself is suspect
gabriel_laddel: e in the interim.
phf nods
trinque: aha, and an anecdote
trinque: it turned out that I was using some ancient mcclim from a copy of their old CVS on a particular dev machine
trinque: found this out a few days ago
gabriel_laddel: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560792 < ben_vulpes sorry what? I didn't post that in here because it was strictly for defunding the McCLIM idiots.
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 18:12 ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560409 << guy looks like he's still trying to scrape credits out of the empire
trinque: points to the alert reader who understands why this took so long to notice
trinque: had brand new mcclim on another dev machine
gabriel_laddel: have you seen the *new* *improved* defsystem layout yet?
gabriel_laddel: it is buttery smooth.
trinque: I am on the latest from the pre-fork maintainers
trinque: re alf's realtime rant, I can't see how that's not possible, perhaps by interrupting an ongoing redisplay with a condition?
trinque: and even without fancy shit like that, I don't notice a damn thing lagging
trinque: !!up gabriel_laddel
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
trinque: get a new key already
gabriel_laddel: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560799 < the only way to distribute CLIM using CL codebases IMHO is as a "world" that is a livecd + the ability to install itself on another x86_64 machine, with all the sources.
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 18:14 trinque: I'm irritated he didn't genesis v-patch the thing
trinque: the same was contemplated for trb; it doesn't rule out use of V
trinque: separate considerations
trinque: you observed certain cultural hazards inherent in the way shithub works
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1561012 << I guarantee this will only happen via use of V
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 21:48 gabriel_laddel: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560716 < it may be that CLIM itself sucks -- but the implementation is 100% common lisp and is easy enough to mechanically alter if you have problems with it. Should tmsr~ decide to strip whatever features from CLIM and alter the spec, at least we have a codebase and spec to argue about and something working to us
gabriel_laddel: Noted. When I get a chance I will look into V. This means _after_ the world replication works. Which, for whatever reason, produces a linux kernel that kernel panics on startup.
trinque: sure
trinque: fwiw ben_vulpes already had a cl-V in the works
trinque off for a bit
ben_vulpes: the distro looms
BingoBoingo: *Destro << ben_vulpes stahp using their vocabulary.
BingoBoingo: A Republican Operating System Kernel+Userland should not be referred to by such hippy dippy terms like "Distro". It is a "Destro", a tool like a reciprocating saw, rotary hammer, or blasting cap.
ben_vulpes: perses!
ben_vulpes: or maybe kalki
BingoBoingo: Or OSzall
BingoBoingo: To go with your Sawzall
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 21:39 phf: trinque: i found an old screenshot of doing that http://glyf.org/screenshots/mozrepl2.png
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 20:01 asciilifeform: (recently i was handling some vaguely ubuntu-derived abortion and clicked 'no thx' and was treated to it loading ANYWAY)
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo "CenturyLink Acquiring "Level 3" As Internet Transit Routes Consolidates" << consolidate ?
mircea_popescu: acquisition anything < than anything
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 21:30 gabriel_laddel: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560469 < would you mind reviewing arsttep? I'm shipping it with each machine as part of the manual and would like for others to be able to understand it.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560984 << so basically, you're selling shinohai -ing services for $300 ?
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 21:34 gabriel_laddel: I've been charging $200 on top of the price of hardware, but as of today (and an extended navigator that indexes all symbols and their types) - 300
mircea_popescu: i think it's a very bad idea to misrepresent this (here) as "selling the box" because it'll cause you nothing but frictive grief.
shinohai: shinohai - ing services ?
mircea_popescu: shinohai you know where there's the src and everyone sane can ftjam it into a working binary within 20 minutes except you still get o spend your life telling people things ?
mircea_popescu: shinohai -ing services.
shinohai: oh xD
shinohai: Someone has to teach Republican Kindergarten
mircea_popescu: ie very patient tech support for people who have no business touching tech in the first place.
shinohai: I almost lost patience with anond until diana_coman made me feel bad about it.
ben_vulpes: "computronium: not to be handled by children or idiots!"
mircea_popescu: i never had any patience to begin with ; consequently - i can't ever lose it.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560978 << this is pretty fucking rad... homeless dude stalks wizards on google to sell them his handmade msdos.
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 21:32 gabriel_laddel: trinque: I'm just selling them by hand at the moment in the bay area (going to google for a scheme meetup to hawk product here in ~.5 hrs)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560997 << this is exactly how it goes, on one end of that : everyone has his own boxes / his own process for acquiring boxes. you can't buy them boxes and mail them over, not really, and if you could it'd be a specialized job and wouldn't work like this. and this isn't even the only angle, people are also variously allergic to divers proteins involved etc.
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 21:40 phf: gabriel_laddel: i wasn't thinking of selling your product, but i wouldn't mind trying to do the deployment on a own hardware
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1561012 << yeah no need to defend around that flag, it's quite clear what you mean ; and it stands sensible.
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 21:48 gabriel_laddel: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560716 < it may be that CLIM itself sucks -- but the implementation is 100% common lisp and is easy enough to mechanically alter if you have problems with it. Should tmsr~ decide to strip whatever features from CLIM and alter the spec, at least we have a codebase and spec to argue about and something working to us
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 22:49 BingoBoingo: Or OSzall
phf: !~later tell gabriel_laddel fyi a handy hack for doing binary patching of deployed lisp images http://www.nicklevine.org/play/patching-made-easy.html i used a variation of that back when i was doing lisp consulting
jhvh1: phf: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: !~later tell gabriel_laddel this thing is long, ima read it later today.
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: The operation succeeded.
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/D0C4BBD37524C4B2B77FF50D6C2FEA19BBA9E712F17831980B534158A22C9094 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 168026500246808413594946371500907116935242852828383875540071338244632416255192144137200446307456676510422963756655778396233498197862652511153091147047408061362189507030023869131331706294089108430326902642905997078724979931491371066080376572272350746531415428594070084667426423370703132671668427480125023151189 divides RS
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/637A344705C6B413E53892DA4D4E0DE421E4347FB788D3AEBF414304B0109AFB << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 168026500246808413594946371500907116935242852828383875540071338244632416255192144137200446307456676510422963756655778396233498197862652511153091147047408061362189507030023869131331706294089108430326902642905997078724979931491371066080376572272350746531415428594070084667426423370703132671668427480125023151189 divides RS
shinohai: http://archive.is/Nw5Ft "I'm forking Zcash" lmao
deedbot: accepted: 1
mod6: !~later tell jurov I tried to send the State of Bitcoin Address email to the ML, which deeded just fine right now, but nothing seems to have shown up in the ML archives yet.
jhvh1: mod6: The operation succeeded.
mod6: Perhaps you can see if there was an error. I didn't get a bounce message, yet. Will let you know if I see anything on my end.
mircea_popescu: happy bday mod6
mircea_popescu: what's the longer term plan, gonna try and tackle wallets ? dbs ? stick to general cleaning bit by bit ?
mod6: thanks mircea_popescu
mod6: Well, short term, I think the current goal is to get through some of these vpatch submissions as we said we would. Hopefully get through a bunch by year end. (Jan 8th) However, the longer term goal is to work on Ideal bitcoin.
mod6: I suspect the long term plan will come into better focus as we start to dig into some of these short term ones though.
mod6: So right now, the import/dump priv key is being reviewed/reground/updated/tested. Next, I'd say we take a hard look at maybe the rawtx one, or maybe even some of the log cleanup ones? There were a whole bunch submitted by polar_beard.
mod6: I would really like to get some of the low-hanging fruit taken care of in the wallet though.
mod6: Another long term goal is to possibly get some more unit tests written for trb. Might not even need to be something in the perm source base, but something as an overlay to give us confidence when we make critical changes down the road.
mod6: In all reality, now that we've gotten through the immediate build issues, now the real hard work begins.
mod6: It'll be a challenge, but good for all in the end.
trinque: a rawtx command would be *very* nice
mod6: *nod* it's on the short list for sure.
mod6: helping you (among many other end users), have a better/easier time with the wallet is a huge win.
shinohai thinks it is nice to finally read a Bitcoin development conversation that doesn't include the term `Segwit`
mod6: Getting a way from bdb will be a huge long term scalability effort. And we've had some very interesting ideas suggested for replacement. So I think that'll be a whole part of the Ideal Bitcoin probably. Right now, tickets 6, 7, and 8 are on a disconnected graph, but could be easily joined to the greater "Ideal" effort.
mod6: I'm sure there will be some further re-alignment of tasks in coming weeks, etc.
mod6: shinohai: =]
shinohai: I'm so tired of seeing it when I troll for articles I'm thinking of writing a script that blocks it from my browser
mod6: you've thrown some good punches while trolling lately. i've lul'd.
mod6: Anyway, overall, I'm super excited for the future of TRB.
mod6: Many technical challenges lie ahead, but with the help of the Lords of tmsr~ and the community at large, we'll be successful.
shinohai: *nods
mod6: !~bcstats
jhvh1: mod6: Current Blocks: {"blockcount":436845} | Current Difficulty: 2.5361824664148953E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 437471 | Next Difficulty In: None blocks | Next Difficulty In About: None | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
a111: Logged on 2016-11-01 00:11 deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/D0C4BBD37524C4B2B77FF50D6C2FEA19BBA9E712F17831980B534158A22C9094 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 168026500246808413594946371500907116935242852828383875540071338244632416255192144137200446307456676510422963756655778396233498197862652511153091147047408061362189507030023869131331706294089108430326902642905997078724979931491371066080376572272350746531415428594070084667426423370703132671668427480125023151189 divides RS
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> acquisition anything < than anything << ty fxdx2
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1561048 << Dicks also works. << You can't have a fucksaw without a sawzall
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 22:49 BingoBoingo: Or OSzall
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560979 << how does this 'when' part work? martians drop 'care package' like usg drops ammo for isis ?
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 21:33 gabriel_laddel: When my life is less shit I'll be setting up a method by which in-WOT people can get it for free. You all, of course, will be able to sell the same product I am.
deedbot: accepted: 1
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1561009 << and gavin gets 10x that, but somehow nobody 'has to clean up' his shit
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 21:45 gabriel_laddel: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560440 < 2.5k usd. Per month, until I bitched about it and it was knocked down to $600/mo - anyways, it isn't about the money, it's about him doing absolutely nothing with it and making a mess that someone will have to clean up.
asciilifeform: just ignore it, costs 0
BingoBoingo: Fuck wrong month in text
deedbot: accepted: 1
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1561075 << aha, the chance that he comes up with iron that i would permit in my house, is ~0
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 23:37 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560997 << this is exactly how it goes, on one end of that : everyone has his own boxes / his own process for acquiring boxes. you can't buy them boxes and mail them over, not really, and if you could it'd be a specialized job and wouldn't work like this. and this isn't even the only angle, people are also variously allergic to divers proteins involved etc.
asciilifeform: not even a stab at gabriel_laddel, but at current hardware drought.
BingoBoingo: Anyways, reall Halloween truth. When Elliot was in that Spielberg movie ET, Elliot did not dress up the alien as a ghost. Elliot dressed the alien up as a klansman.
mircea_popescu: mod6 yeah raw tx / log fixing sounds pretty great actually.
mircea_popescu: the thing with the db is, i keep thinking about it and i keep failing to convince myself a db is even needed in the first fucking place. truth be told blockchain is the textbook example of "you don't db this shit son, use the filesystem"
mod6: Ah indeed, an 'interesting idea'. I'm excited to see where we can take that.
mircea_popescu: just the benefit of NOT haviong a whole pile of code in there doing "db" is already immense ; but there's actually no gain from slowing down the disk seeks etc through extra wrappings
mircea_popescu: mod6 iirc it keeps popping up w/e we discuss the bitcoin db monstrosity, which is about each 9 months.
mod6: Agree, we've def. discussed a few times.
mircea_popescu: also i have nfi what "db" we can trust. they're all shit
mircea_popescu: (large codebase, many changes, many "developers" === shit, by definition, no way out of this)
mod6: yeah, me either. they're garbage.
mircea_popescu: and so what, we'll freeze a 2mn loc monstrosity ? you and what army ?
mod6: yeah, no way.
mod6: i think putting effort into: http://thebitcoin.foundation/tickets/trb_tickets.html#6 is the right idea.
mircea_popescu: and then of course they'll discover this nice bug that's been there for 10 years and utterly ruins you. so you gotta update. except the only update available is made by florian "i eat shit for breakfast" weimer and well... it contains 3 extra holes to be burned in 2025
mircea_popescu: mod6 note i'm not even discussing a special fs. that's a while down the road. for now, all that's needed is some serious profiling work, to see how we store the thing. prolly as block = file ? and just use a normal ext4 or w/e
mircea_popescu: actually, improving logging to add some hooks for profiling in there may be a good idea.
mircea_popescu: i have nfi how satoshi reasoned to arrive at the current nonsense of 2gb monoliths, but it was dumb.
mod6: sure, i think going block -> certainly fits into the same paradigm as eatblock/dumpblock.
mod6: bah *block->file
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> i have nfi how satoshi reasoned to arrive at the current nonsense of 2gb monoliths, but it was dumb. << FAT32 file size limit
mircea_popescu: moreover, the disks / kernel are exactly optimized for this task. fuck around with ~mb ish item on disk
trinque: BingoBoingo: aha
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo he could have made dirs ffs.
BingoBoingo: But with blockindex.dat NO ONE COULD HAVE FORSEEN!!!
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo he could have made dirs ffs. << IF he could he would not be Satoshi!
mircea_popescu: block N is found in <dir first 1/4 butes>/<dir 2nd 1/4 butes>/<dir 3rd 1/4 butes>/last 1/4 bytes.block
mircea_popescu: or w/e, what was the limit, something stupid like 32k files ?
mircea_popescu: and it's also immensely ssd friendly : you don't touch most blocks. say you keep i dunno, 12 or something like that, user-configured, in memory. this way, you only write them to disk once.
mircea_popescu: the flash cells will love you.
mircea_popescu: pop a fresh 8x TB ssd in a 1+0 raid array, ten years later they're within 95% of factory speeds. because never fragmented, because nothing ever deleted.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-01#1561145 << you can take ~this~ to the bank!1111
a111: Logged on 2016-11-01 03:20 mircea_popescu: also i have nfi what "db" we can trust. they're all shit
BingoBoingo: To the Republic I pose New Header for the gray lady with the rabbit hat. "Qntra - [Fill-this-blank] Of The Most Serene Republic"
mircea_popescu: what was it, Mainstream News Outlet ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-01#1561154 << those are blox, mircea_popescu
a111: Logged on 2016-11-01 03:24 mircea_popescu: i have nfi how satoshi reasoned to arrive at the current nonsense of 2gb monoliths, but it was dumb.
asciilifeform: 0 to do with index db
asciilifeform: they ain't bdb turds
mircea_popescu: they are still turds. i don't want to seek in a fucking 2gb file to find block N
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> what was it, Mainstream News Outlet ? << "Propaganda Mouthpiece"?, Whatever it is this question now goes to the Peerage for suggestions.
mircea_popescu: kernel / os / disks are not made for this
asciilifeform: but sequential tapes of blox, see the blkcut thread.
asciilifeform: and yes they oughta be files.
asciilifeform: issue becomes when you try and make tx also files.
mircea_popescu: you do ?
asciilifeform: the only 'humans' fs that is even remotely up to this task is reiser's.
mod6: <+BingoBoingo> To the Republic I pose New Header for the gray lady with the rabbit hat. "Qntra - [Fill-this-blank] Of The Most Serene Republic" << Chronicle ?
mircea_popescu: i dunno that you'd want to make txn files really. they're small, just load their block in memory.
asciilifeform: yes but which block
mircea_popescu: mod6 that's mroe the log neh ?
trinque: Lulzgusher.
asciilifeform: that's what the index db is ~for~
mod6: mircea_popescu: ah, fair point.
asciilifeform: is to 'which block is tx X in'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform sure. i suppose you save lookup tables huh.
mircea_popescu: a clever design for which would be muchly useful.
trinque: doing something non-idiotic with the set of utxos seems unavoidable if you want to use the thing
asciilifeform: btw if shitoshi weren't dropped as a baby, 'which block' would be baked into tx id.
asciilifeform: or similar.
mircea_popescu: reverse ptr for the love of fuck. it's FOUR BYTES OMFG
asciilifeform: no shortage of these.
asciilifeform: and if you cannot do 'which block' because impatient and gotta have txid IMMEDIATELY, then 'top block at time of baking' at least
mircea_popescu: definitely trb fork will have a sane tx-to-block coding scheme
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, the txid as used in mempool and the txid as used in block is not required to match.
mircea_popescu: they're entirely separate concepts, mashed together because idiots think that the way the world appears to them in the moment is the way the world is.
asciilifeform: every time i open a notebook and start in these, i barf upon realizing that there is more of these than of sane design decisions.
mircea_popescu: the three girls presently in the room have three girls names, but if i have them fuck each other and film the proceedings the filename will be something with a time in it. apparently this doesn't make the walls collapse on my head.
mircea_popescu: because lo and behold, the mempool of their presence and the blockchain of their past deeds are not the same exact fucking item.
asciilifeform: mempool is a can of worms that deserves own thread
mircea_popescu: sadly. the main thing that holds back sanevelopment on trb is the fact that whatever you want to discuss everyone starts muttering curses and mashing kbd about the 10bn other things connected.
asciilifeform: i'm not convinced that it even belongs in same proggy
trinque: for that matter neither the "utxos and other lookups"
mircea_popescu: it's clear that it needs a message queue / interface with the proggy, but that's about all that's clear.
asciilifeform: trinque: lookups become fairly straightforward matter if sane db
mircea_popescu: db is overkill for this. all you want is 3 things.
asciilifeform: query against blocks, not some running process
trinque: aha same page.
asciilifeform: (at no point do i give a fuck what is in mempool, unless i put it there)
mircea_popescu: not unless you're mining, which doesn't belong mashed in here.
asciilifeform: or engaging in propagation 'astronomy'
trinque: blockhuckerd seems almost approachable
trinque: as compared to bitcoind
mircea_popescu: very much so. also happens to be the correct approach.
asciilifeform: see the obligatory surgeon's knife thread,
asciilifeform: this thing is long overdue for the cut.
trinque: I will be interesting to hear what ben_vulpes has to say about this, given recent block-parsing adventures
trinque: *interested
asciilifeform: and the glomming of otherwise separate concerns is one of the things that makes reading trb a reliable headache.
mircea_popescu: the only correct way to do this is to make a binary tree out of txids and save that somehow isn't it
mircea_popescu: how about this scheme : you do /bitcoin/blockid/aaaa/bbbb/cccc/dddd/ a total of 16 levels, off the blockid, wherein at the end a block.dat 1mb file is found. you also do /bitcoin/txid/aaaa/bbbb/ etc also 16 levels, the last of which you SIMLINK to the correct block.dat dir
mircea_popescu: whenever you process a new block, you add the needed simlinks in /txid/etc
mircea_popescu: (speaking of which : maxsimlinks used to be hardcoded to 40 via param.h for reasons. dunno if still the case)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: well yes, this'd the 'on top of human fs' scheme suggested in earlier threads
mircea_popescu: works on ext2!
asciilifeform: it'll sorta work if you're on reiserfs
asciilifeform: 'works' consists of two things, 'correct' and 'keeps time'
mircea_popescu: what time ? a txid doesn't change what block it's in does it ?
asciilifeform: keeps up with real time.
asciilifeform: as, e.g., pogo with mechanical hdd does not.
mircea_popescu: this'd be a ssds in raid thing.
asciilifeform: even then
mircea_popescu: symlinking is that slow ?
asciilifeform: pile up layers, with poor impedance match, and you get 'a clim'
mircea_popescu: a block only comes in every x minutes, only has a hundred or so txn if that.
mircea_popescu: which layers are we piling ?
asciilifeform: or ever wonder why winblows is slow? this'd be why.
mircea_popescu: the one concern is that 5mn simlinks in you'll discover that "oops, we decided X number of simlinks should be enough for everyone fuck you"
asciilifeform: hence reiser.
mircea_popescu: hence looking into what ext2 does if you do a lot of simlinks. not like this can't be dry run with bogodata.
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