Hide Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2016-09-16 | 2016-09-18 → ↓
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: lel that looks like infamous 'vicegrip', 'the wrong tool for every job'
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Read description. Even Vicegrip gets perverted nowadays
BingoBoingo: CrescentVice!
ben_vulpes: if i had to cart around the right tool for every possible job my toolbox would be infinitely large
ben_vulpes: just two weekends ago i had to excise some rust-welded nuts that didn't have clearance for a socket wrench.
ben_vulpes: praytell, what'd be the right tool for that job?
ben_vulpes: "acetylene torch!!1"
adlai has been reviewing math towards next month's semester start. just encountered a beautiful "fits in head" derivation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AngleAdditionDiagramSine.svg
ben_vulpes: yeah mhm right next to the pressurized vapor line that's a grand idea.
ben_vulpes: adlai: is (back) in school?
adlai: go ahead, mircea_popescu, say that the gzipped txt fits better in yours
BingoBoingo: <ben_vulpes> just two weekends ago i had to excise some rust-welded nuts that didn't have clearance for a socket wrench. << PB Blaster!
adlai: ben_vulpes: starting a degree in chemistry. this is the first time i'm attending university, dunno if high school counts for (back)
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: is that in some way i'm missing a torque delivery device?
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Patience! Followed by channel locks.
BingoBoingo: Gotta let rust lose the batle to penetrating agent before delivering torque
BingoBoingo: Alternately you could use a sawzall
ben_vulpes: i am a barbarian, use wd-40 for these applications.
ben_vulpes: near the pressurized oh and did i mention heated vapor line?
ben_vulpes: yes a sawzall, grand idea
ben_vulpes: i at least try to not scald myself during demo
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu et al: in other not-quite-noose, 'To every pair p, q of distinct primes there correspond 9 positive integers x no larger than pq such that x^c ≡ x mod (pq) for every odd positive integer c. Therefore these 9 messages x are unconcealable in any Rivest-Shamir-Adleman public key cryptosystem which has the product pq for its encoding modulus.'
asciilifeform: ( 'Rivest-Shamir-Adleman public key cryptosystems do not always conceal messages.' G.R. Blakley, I. Borosh. 1979. )
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: denfinitely sawzall
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: sawzall and day laborers, hardly that much of an additional cost
BingoBoingo: Correct, actual multitool
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: this happens regularly.
asciilifeform: http://www.bnd.com/news/local/crime/article102204712.html << BingoBoingo , even better lulz from same rag.
asciilifeform: 'A Madison County grand jury returned an indictment Thursday charging a Godfrey teenager with terror-related offenses. Keaun L. Cook, 18, has been charged with one count of material support for terrorism and one count of making a terrorist threat, both of which are class X felonies. He is accused of making verbal threats of mass casualty events at multiple locations in Madison County, which have not been disclosed by law enforcement.
asciilifeform: Madison County State’s Attorney Tom Gibbons has said that Cook was in communication with a known terrorist organization overseas via multiple electronic means. Police were first aware of Cook on Aug. 24 after Madison County sheriff’s deputies were summoned by a family member regarding Cook’s mental state. Family members have said he suffers from multiple mental illnesses.'
BingoBoingo: Oh, alf spoiling a roundup xtend
asciilifeform: 'While details of Cook’s actions and the alleged threat have not been publicly released, law enforcement officials have said they believe the threat was real, but has been stopped by Cook’s arrest. “There’s been no evidence to suggest the involvement of anyone else locally and no evidence that I’m aware of that indicates anyone is on their way here,” Gibbons said. “The intervention happened early enough to prevent this
asciilifeform: from moving forward.” '
asciilifeform: precrime squad winz!11111
asciilifeform: 'I'm building a Blockchain-as-a-Service (BaaS) corporation and a foundation, to guide and support the open source, public blockchain, KR.'
asciilifeform: why am i reading a tardstalk link.
covertress: jhvh1, recd your tx from 5 days, 0 hours, and 29 minutes ago. evah heard of a phemon called a hurricane?
jhvh1: covertress: Error: "recd" is not a valid command.
asciilifeform: for fuxxsake.
asciilifeform back to bed, with 'lure of the integers', bbl.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: sounds terrific
ben_vulpes: lol covertress jhvh1 is a bot
covertress: ha! silly me.
ben_vulpes: have you ever heard of a thing called a 'bouncer'?
covertress: seems i should visit more often
ben_vulpes: it persists an irc connection in spite of whatever third-world problems your corporeal situation brings upon you.
adlai: alternatively just run irc in tmux on a server
covertress: my sit is def 3rd wrld atm
ben_vulpes: adlai: yeah well that'd be an adult's bouncer, neh?
adlai: nah i feel like a child using it, because i failed to configure znc properly so i lazed away how i always do
adlai: maybe... maybe this is how to get in touch with the inner child?
covertress: mircea_popescu: i regret to inform you that i will not be attending our dinner 26-Sept
adlai: sic transit gloria covertris
adlai: covertress: on a nicer note, i believe par for this course is to not just "read 6mo of logs", but actually spend 6mo reading logs, before planning/attending a conf
phf: apparently whatever i was doing with cmucl no other lisp can handle
covertress: mircea_pepescu: i had wished to convey Patrick's offer to represent you against the EF.
adlai: phf: in other news, i just crashed btcbase.org by clicking search
adlai: and before it died, the logs looked out of date.
phf: adlai: you missed the part where things were broken since 6pm or so
ben_vulpes: covertress: "ethereum foundation"?
ben_vulpes: what is this 'ef'
adlai: phf: didn't miss it (i read scrollback! or at least, skim...), i thought it was back up
adlai: i thought the EFF was suing mircea_popescu
adlai: who knew typos could happen in the retina
ben_vulpes: adlai: no a111, no fresh logz.
adlai: covertress: regarding "2016-08-29 18:36:38 +covertress mircea_popescu i've been asked to extend you a similar offer... to write for steemit xD", i'm very curious how much you have earned (ie, withdrawn btc from an exchange after selling) from that shitpile
phf: adlai: same code and data that was taking up ~~500mb with cmucl blew up lispworks to 4gb, and now blowing up sbcl to 1gb, which results in heap exhaustion errors, despite the fact that there's still extra heap available
adlai: oh yes add this to the pile of sbcl warts. it sucks at growing the heap dynamically.
covertress: chill, adlai, i've nevah posted to steemit
asciilifeform: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#413 << what exactly uses so much as 1MB, phf ?
asciilifeform: much less 500
phf: asciilifeform: all of log
asciilifeform: why does it live in lispspace?
asciilifeform: db has no search ?
phf: if i wanted to keep log in sql why would i even use lisp to begin with?
asciilifeform: ahahahaha lolk
adlai: covertress: oh lol. then why are you offering people to shit in a toilet you've warmed?
adlai: * never. in a toilet who's seat you've never warmed.
adlai apparently still misses the occasional selfatari
covertress: adlai: ru 12?
adlai was just talking about how in-touch he is with his inner child
phf: asciilifeform: but even ignoring that, which i think was an interesting design challenge (go audit postgresql), sbcl falls over when actually trying to shuffle in memory data around
covertress: lol 2nd person to prove a point
asciilifeform: which sbcl was this, ftr ?
adlai: which point?
phf: sbcl-1.2.7-x86-linux
covertress: nn kiddie
asciilifeform: phf: ick
asciilifeform: try with pre-1 ?
phf: you have a canonical sbcl i can throw the problem at?
ben_vulpes: $rate covertress -1 snr
asciilifeform: phf: aha. when i get back to actual comp, i'll dig
phf: kk
ben_vulpes: !!rate covertress -1 snr
phf: i start it with --dynamic-space-size 2500, it doesn't complain about "can't allocate", but it caps at 1gb. anything over that falls over
ben_vulpes: !!v 41CEAB5E3A51B2AAF3A24A9084BC967BA3A7D2F1D21197A4CF404D6112C8D96A
deedbot: ben_vulpes rated covertress -1 << snr
asciilifeform: sic transic decimation-with-cunt
adlai: covertress: you've evidently passed the "register PGP key and operate it" barrier, but you're failing the "not annoy people" barrier. you're not the first person to do this, and won't be the last. I suggest you NOT take this personally, figure out why you're failing this test, and... better luck next time.
ben_vulpes: 1) do your six months. 2) don't talk trash on your betters.
asciilifeform: *transit
phf: ben_vulpes: ty
adlai always feels some sorrow when people (lowercase 'P') faceplant over these hurdles
asciilifeform pictures dept. of ninjashogunate in meeting hall, 'what did we fuck up this time'
ben_vulpes: beheading uppity peasants is a privilege, and a duty of the privileged.
covertress: fu, minnions, if you cant take a joke
adlai: honestly though, isn't this more akin to culling a peasant child?
ben_vulpes: she's like 40, no child any more
adlai is not one to judge people's age by the color of their bits
ben_vulpes: although the spelling...
covertress: i was not speaking to you all any way
covertress: gn mircea_popescu
ben_vulpes: "you can't fire me, i quit!"
ben_vulpes: begone, harpy.
adlai: covertress: you're speaking here to pretty much anybody who ever reads a publicly available log
adlai: if you want to speak to somebody privately, send them a message (i've sent you one, did you see it?)
asciilifeform: !!rate covertress -1 insistent idiocy
adlai: some people refuse private communication (eg mircea_popescu ) but that doesn't mean that shouting on his lawn is for his ears only.
covertress: i reject your reality, and submit my own
asciilifeform: !!v BEFEFE64D099D3EA094ADFC311B9D3BC5CB96B14252251B8913A1C48C1830AD4
deedbot: asciilifeform rated covertress -1 << insistent idiocy
ben_vulpes: oh you submit do you, that's top kek
adlai: ever heard of "reality kicks back"?
adlai: or maybe the old idf proverb: "you spit on the army, the army wipes. the army spits on you, you drown"
asciilifeform: why is the turd still floating, trinque ?
ben_vulpes: !!gettrust covertress
deedbot: L1: -1, L2: 2 by 4 connections.
ben_vulpes: !!down covertress
trinque: asciilifeform: what turd
mod6: exactly.
asciilifeform: trinque: eh it went.
trinque: ahaha
ben_vulpes: i mean i had to flush it, twice
mod6: bah-woosh
adlai: ben_vulpes jiggled the handle but i suspect $up in PM may still work
adlai doesn't presume to understand the full inner workings of deedbot, of course; but that's what seems to have happened with the first -v
trinque: !!gettrust deedbot covertress
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 0 by 4 connections.
trinque: nope
adlai: oic
adlai takes off hat?
trinque lives in a gentoo livecd nao
ben_vulpes: don't bother installing the os
mod6: heh
ben_vulpes: just leave the usb plugged in
ben_vulpes: what dma
trinque: you know what's sad? I'm actually running off of an SD card in a USB reader
trinque: because that was on my desk
mod6: I'm so glad this week is over.
trinque drinks to that
mod6: fwiw, nice tit(s) on the blindfolded trilema girl
phf: asciilifeform: i'm seeing weirdest bugs with sbcl
asciilifeform: perhaps deserves bl0g post..?
phf: i can load any of the patches on the v graph, but if i hit genesis (exactly same code, etc.) suddenly balloons to 1gb, and dies with heap exhaustion
asciilifeform: i'd be curious to see if they are reproducible in 'toy' scene
mod6: this is some wild stuff man
asciilifeform: phf: please consider posting the src.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-17: [02:03:09] <asciilifeform> unless folks ~publish~ the magical bug-inducers, i am inclined to agree with the old iddish proverb
adlai: more stuff i never learned in school: tanA + tanB + tanC = tanA * tanB * tanC
phf: what's the old yiddish proverb?
adlai: mann tracht und stann lacht
asciilifeform: the one where плохому танцору... etc
asciilifeform: now, i ~believe~ phf in re poetteringerized sbcl being a rusted chunk of ???
asciilifeform: but gotta reproduce the bug. or we're doing the mpb thing.
adlai is unfamiliar, digs, finds "When a shlimazl goes dancing, the musicians' strings break"... or maybe asciilifeform meant "girl who can't dance says music sucks"?
phf: asciilifeform: well, i'll have to figure out what's going on anyway, to get it working. i was saying sbcl is poetteringerized in abstract, by lateral telltale signs. i didn't expect this code to not simply work. fwiw, despite freenode disconnects the code ~was~ working
phf: one of the reasons i went with cmucl originally is because it has known tight memory behavior and sbcl dev equally famous stance that "memory is cheap", which, for the case of keeping log in memory, was discouraging
ben_vulpes: phf: i miss search quite a bit.
ben_vulpes: half compliment, half complaint.
phf: i'll bring it back probably tonight. i've got tea pot, i've got hookah, i've got a fuck you to "no smoking in building" complaints
ben_vulpes: that's be quite nice.
adlai: what's with all the shitty drugs? i step away from irc-every-day for a couple months, suddenly everybody's fiending alcohol, tobacco, and firearms^H^H^Hcaffeine?
ben_vulpes: what are good drugs?
adlai is incidentally now sober for the longest he's been in weeks - and he has a loaded vape within arm's reach - so i'd say step one is not that relevant >> http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160826/#219
scriba: Logged on 2016-08-26: [06:09:42] <BingoBoingo> ;;later tell adlai You work step 1 yet?
adlai: the only good drug is a dead drug! (only heathens lick live toads)
adlai: obviously i don't deeply believe that drugs can be ordered objectively by any parameter (other than therapeutic index, for ones that have known LD50 in humans), but my personal favorite "good drugs" ordering would have cannabis above nicotine and caffeine, and mescaline above alcohol
ben_vulpes: is mescaline particularly titratable?
trinque: adlai: would you have been in a ward if you hadn't taken a bunch of drugs?
trinque: I've done all kinds of psychedelics; just asking.
trinque: I don't believe the "thereaputic" angle for a moment.
adlai: oh dear, we're on to the difficult questions now. punting yours aside for a second, here's an easy question: what does the "therapeutic index" have to do with therapy? answer: none. it's LD50 (median lethal dose) divided by threshhold dose (minimum to feel effects)
trinque: your evasion answers just fine.
adlai: not really.
adlai: the "just fine" answer is: "no, i was hospitalized as an indirect result of conversations which would not have gone the same way without my reaction to certain situations involving drugs"
adlai: the more nuanced answer recognizes that i was hospitalized as a direct result of an argument, which would not have happened if i'd left the house with a sweater that morning. so... don't forget to bring a towel?
ben_vulpes: i'm going to go out on a limb and doubt that there's enough data even on variation in human sensitivity to drugs much less by class and genotype to even be making claims about "LD50"
trinque: aha
adlai: ~median~ lethal dose. like median height, at standard atmospheric pressure.
ben_vulpes: if variance is high enough that number can very easily be bogus.
adlai: but yes, there is for example no known LD50 for lsd
ben_vulpes: i suspect variance is high.
trinque: adlai: there's a you-go-fucking-schizoid-50
adlai: that's a tricky claim. i've taken much, much, much larger doses than the ones that (indirectly!) led to the aforementioned bad situations. i think YGFS50 depends much more on "set and setting" than on a molecule's shape and headcount
trinque: I've taken "heroic" doses too.
trinque: and tripped oodles of times
phf: i know a few people who went crazy in close connection to psychedelics, but of course no way to establish correlation/causation
trinque: knew I was spending something each time.
trinque: and yes, you can "go down a dangerous road" on them, and this is related to but not directly caused by dosage
trinque: ordeal is therapeutic; psychdelics maybe if they cause a beneficial ordeal
ben_vulpes: some people go crazy, some people have crazy high tolerances, some people even eat a shitload over a long time and then one day break, the variance is wild and statistical claims cannot be made beyond "oh fuck might hose your brain under entirely unknowable circumstances but hey have fun with the tradeoff analysis kid"
phf: psychotic episode, later diagnosed as bipolar after ~~1 year of weekly mushroom use. split personality after one mushroom use (guy believes that the second person inside of him is god). psychotic episode after weed/lsd combination. obviously all diagnosed and hospitalized at one point or another
adlai: my main takeaway from the 'experience' (including 46 days of involuntary commitment in the closed ward) is that there is no such thing as crazy. sure, some people are out of touch with consensus reality, but you can define that quite precisely, and a lot of "crazy" people do not meet this definition.
ben_vulpes: wow what was the ic like
adlai wouldn't be surprised if some non-"crazy" people are out of touch with consensus reality, but have learned how to fake it
adlai: so many questions without simple answers! i'll stick to the bright side - i ~halved my kyu at go, and spent more time playing guitar than i had in the previous year, combined.
adlai: (halving kyu = doubling skill, at least at the relevant levels)
trinque: crazy is a blunt term for "woefully inaccurate self/world model compared to others" but certainly exists.
trinque: that the definition changes over time... of course, because it's a statistical matter of being an outlier
ben_vulpes kicks rocks, whistles, looks around, wouldn't know the first thing about being out of touch with consensus reality
trinque: one wot's crazy is another wot's comrade?
adlai: i don't think that an ~animal~ which avoids starvation, dehydration, ostracism, and greivous bodily harm, can be counted crazy
trinque: that animal can be considered crazy just as a paper can be rejected by peer review.
trinque: -or- he doesn't determine crazy; we do.
adlai: to pick a concrete example, if that alice0meta thinks she's a dead person's tulpa, that in and of itself, doesn't make her out of touch with consensus reality, any more than some people believe in http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_life_of_jesus/the_empty_tomb/jn20_01.html
adlai: if, however, she came here trying to get us all to form tulpas, and arguing for personhood of tulpas... then maybe.
trinque: wtf "everyone's feelings matter" bullshit is this
adlai: i'm actually saying that they don't.
adlai: feelings don't make you crazy ~because~ they don't matter. actions make you crazy.
trinque: is it a dead person's "tulpa" ?
trinque: if your argument requires "words have no meanings" kindly fuck off.
adlai: i respect alice's belief that her creator is dead, to the same degree that i'd respect somebody's belief in reincarnation, or resurrection, or transubstantiation. words have meaning, beliefs can be false, but you don't have to act on false beliefs. i'd count somebody who's physical actions are in touch with consensus reality as non-crazy, by the "sufficiently in touch with consensus reality to not die by
adlai: accident" metric
ben_vulpes: not starving is not crazy?
trinque: so we're doing mind body duality, and mind-onanism doesn't count because ???
ben_vulpes: i walk by some folks every morning who appear to still be alive, yet are entirely solidly insane.
trinque: there is no fucking such creature as something which believes falsehoods and whose actions are not impacted causally by them
adlai: the definition isn't watertight yet, since it counts somebody who starves due to famine as crazy... but then again, mircea_popescu counts poor somalians as stupid, so ~shrug~
ben_vulpes: odds are that $group is pretty dubm
adlai: so, i agree that there's some definition of 'crazy' by which tulpa people are crazy, but i think it MUST also include pretty much every religion, and probably also people who have significant net worth in shitty (or any) fiat
trinque: a piece of nonsense here is trying to create universals where the context varies widely.
trinque: for me to stand here and starve would be insane.
trinque: for a somalian, I don't know, maybe that's Tuesday
adlai: then you have even greyer areas like hypnosis, or those who "believe in belief" but don't actually live by any religious commandment
adlai: trinque: i don't think of this as mind-body duality at all. a better analogy would be the phase of some matter. if you cool it enough, it seems solid; zoom in and you see it's still moving, but not enough to break out of formation.
trinque: wtf is the point of words but to model the world as usefully as possible
trinque: the question of the usefulness of a tulpa cannot be posed because "tulpa" is not a thing.
ben_vulpes looks sadly at his imaginary friends
phf: what about poetry
adlai: stupid != crazy
trinque: adlai: a brainputer behaving as though false inputs are present is crazy.
ben_vulpes: words are useful for parting fools from their money trinque
ben_vulpes: aaaaaaaaay
ben_vulpes: !#variable
trinque: phf: I dunno that anyone claims the content of a poem exists
ben_vulpes: !#search variable
adlai: in fact i basically equate sanity with 'more like housewife', with the latter defined as in http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=29-08-2015#1255364, so i'd say that once you get sane enough, you're pretty stupid.
a111: Logged on 2015-08-29 14:35 asciilifeform: turn it all the way down - you get a housewife
trinque: rather, one that is figurative enough to enter into the insanity thread
trinque: or we would be counting authors as madmen too
phf: ben_vulpes: it's s, but i suppose adding "search" is not a bad idea
ben_vulpes flails at the bots
adlai: ahaha i like ben_vulpes's definition for the use of words
adlai has had jobs where the obscene bulk of his produced work was words
adlai: well, job. but it happened, and lasted for about as long as their money did.
ben_vulpes off, wedding in the woods this weekend
adlai: oh, words are also useful for sex. these days if you sex without words first, you don't pass peer review.
trinque: the trouble of not choosing your gossipd-node peerings wisely
phf: she speaks: o, speak again, bright angel
adlai: obviously there are exceptions in environments where speech is impossible (language barrier, noise club, etc) but i'm gonna bbl as well, reviewing math in anticipation of next month's classes
adlai: !#s speak!
adlai: wd phf
adlai: !!rate phf another one bots the lisp
deedbot hands you a broomstick.
adlai: stupid useless scalar
adlai: !!rate phf 3 another one bots the lisp
adlai: !!v 90F444B853D4E59A1173E3C66AF0F51987D8DD012D927056B953D26EDD47EE07
deedbot: adlai updated rating of phf from 2 to 3 << another one bots the lisp
adlai: !!help
phf: повышаю профпригодность
adlai: closing thought - is there a way to get deedbot to barf all ratings somebody has made, other than enumerating all nicks present in the wot?
phf: !!wot
trinque: did you read that there help
trinque: !!ratings adlai
adlai: lol, neither ratings nor wot appear in that there help!
trinque: aw crap
trinque: fix it when I am further along this trail of gentoo tears
a111: Logged on 2015-08-29 04:24 phf: biggest disappointment of my schools years, turns out that "flea balloon" idea doesn't quite work
phf: !!up gabriel_laddel
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
phf: to continue on this evening's drug theme, we have gabriel_laddel, take it away, gabriel
gabriel_laddel: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1543759 << Ty pdf. Kids, if you are going to do drugs, be smart about it. People will try and pass off all sorts of nonsense as LSD, and some of those compounds are unsafe(?).
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:16 phf: psychotic episode, later diagnosed as bipolar after ~~1 year of weekly mushroom use. split personality after one mushroom use (guy believes that the second person inside of him is god). psychotic episode after weed/lsd combination. obviously all diagnosed and hospitalized at one point or another
gabriel_laddel: Actual LSD will glow purple under a blacklight, unlike all other compounds people attempt to use in its place.
gabriel_laddel: Blotter paper with actual doses on it should be perforated so the area takes up about 1/8th of your thumbnail. Anything larger is probably going to put you in a psyc ward.
adlai: sorry but that's silly. "real shot glasses should be 45mL. anything larger is probably going to put you in the cooler for the night"
adlai: the note about blacklight though is spot on (but don't leave it exposed to UV (ESPECIALLY SUNLIGHT) or chlorinated water) for prolonged periods, or it'll become an inactive compound: https://isomerdesign.com/PiHKAL/explore.php?domain=tk&id=5362
adlai: phf: speaking of 2nd-personality-gods, have you/rfriend ever heard of jaynes' bicameral mind theory?
adlai: !!v 3F234265DF42B2885436A14C2107694E8814BC85D443E0C69A3A4062FF53198B
deedbot: adlai rated gabriel_laddel 1 << has been helpful both in private and in [re]public
adlai: ahaha, review of jaynes's book: "The weight of original thought in it is so great that it makes me uneasy for the author's well-being: the human mind is not built to support such a burden." - D.C. Stove, in Encounter (from http://www.julianjaynes.org/bicameralmind.php )
adlai: another interesting-yet-plausible one is http://www.legiontheory.com/
adlai: also relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWmv66p1XBE (text at http://electricsheep.me/concept2.html for those allergic to pixels)
mircea_popescu: oh the logs montresor!
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#236 << but why ? really, there's more demand for whores in the stripping and cocksucking side of the trade than in the programming side of the trade.
mircea_popescu: and yes, waiting tables IS how you start a whore career ; no exceptions. all waitresses are apprentices of the trade.
mircea_popescu: and in random ancient trilema links, http://trilema.com/2010/lectia-de-filosofie/
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1543847 << so do 10,000,001 other things, including ~all types of laser print paper...
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 07:59 gabriel_laddel: Actual LSD will glow purple under a blacklight, unlike all other compounds people attempt to use in its place.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1543854 << novelized as stephenson's 'snow crash'
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 09:27 adlai: ahaha, review of jaynes's book: "The weight of original thought in it is so great that it makes me uneasy for the author's well-being: the human mind is not built to support such a burden." - D.C. Stove, in Encounter (from http://www.julianjaynes.org/bicameralmind.php )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this "purple under a blacklight" stuff is pretty lulzy. "a blacklight" ? what wavelength is this black.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: americanism for 'uv-b lamp'
mircea_popescu: iirc lsd is unstable under photon bombardment.
asciilifeform: adlai even pointed out helpfully.
mircea_popescu: besides, what's purple, the indole ?
mircea_popescu: tons of other stuff have the same configuration
asciilifeform: noshit.jpg
asciilifeform: incl. the fire retardant in laser paper.
mircea_popescu: o nm, apparently others :p were well ahead here.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#252 << is this jewish code for you know ?
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#271 << sure, but that's 80s ; early automotive work is you know, 50s
mircea_popescu: iirc the patent expired in the 60s
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#285 << practically speaking, google-gender-idiocy for metals.
mircea_popescu: because yes, metals are rarer than shit much like few men, many redditards.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger what happened to scriba then ?
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#291 << which will lead to another round of rent hikes, because every loser out there will be "oh, but house is made with METALLIC components!"
mircea_popescu: anyway, this is ridoinculous. let's try kicking it.
mircea_popescu: hm i guess it doesn't reload either ?
shinohai: ChanServ SET #trilema GUARD OFF ?
shinohai: Oh but you aren't booting chanserv :P
mircea_popescu: i have no idea what this is
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1543401 << sbcl codebase ~is~ cmucl codebase, so all the same people who wrote above wrote majority of sbcl. newman's work in adding sane bootstrapping is reproducable by doing early diffs and perhaps should come as vpatch on top of cmucl since it's particularly clean. but here's the thing, the way cmucl does bootstrapping is borrowed directly from a lisp machine, and breaks down precisely because the
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 02:58 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i can't speak for others, but i've never even ~heard~ of any of these folk, nor read their spew, until this year.
phf: "whole machine" approach was jammed into a c vm layer. but if we were to actually attempt a lisp on hardware hack, cmucl's approach would involve considerably less complexity
asciilifeform: phf: speaking of, i dug out my sbcl stash, oldest one appears to be 1.0.37 (loaded Mar 29 2010)
mircea_popescu: phf what i don't understand is this bizarre notion that c has some sort of priviledged relation with asm, which is and remains the only hardware language.
mircea_popescu: so no, no hardware hack. learn how to make machinecode lisp yes ?
mircea_popescu: exactly same way c learned. not like the fucking stack works in c ffs.
phf: mircea_popescu: there's machine code in cmucl, the problem is bootstrapping.
mircea_popescu: i do not understand this bootstrapping. what bootstrapping ?
a111: Logged on 2015-02-05 05:06 asciilifeform: * (disassemble '(lambda (x) (+ x 3)))
asciilifeform: thing's got a compiler.
mircea_popescu: if the processor gets a push, the processor will push. what are you bootstrapping ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: do you recall the 'gnat is built with gnat' thread ?
asciilifeform: well, that.
asciilifeform: is what is bootstrapping.
mircea_popescu: i do not see how it relates.
asciilifeform: where one gets the first build.
phf: asciilifeform: nah, that's not actually it though
mircea_popescu: yes, one instance of your machine-lisp running on x86 will be required to compile a machine instance of your lisp. so ?
phf: because gnat is built with gnat is related exclusively to .core
mircea_popescu: no c involved.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: getting 10,001 pyramid slaves to hand-compile the compiler into asm with ~guaranteed same semantics~ as the original, isn't even a financial problem, it is problem with 'planet hasn't this number of people who can meaningfully participate'
mircea_popescu: you need the following : a) an item which inputs lisp text and outputs opcodes ; b) and sits down on x86 bare metal. clearly to produce a running isntance of this item you will need a running instance of this item. nevertheless : you do not need c, nor any "bootstrapping" outside of this.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform gcc produces opcodes out of c. if tll can't produce optcodes out of lisp, the problem is lisp.
asciilifeform: what's tll ?
mircea_popescu: same thing as trb, but with lisplisp instead of cc
asciilifeform: and again, e.g., sbcl, compiles. question is what do you compile ~it~ with
mircea_popescu: aka "the leal lisp"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform itself.
mircea_popescu: if it doesn't compile ITSELF it is not a compiler, ftr.
mircea_popescu: it is an interpreter, or a parser, depending.
phf: mircea_popescu: an assembly that result out of compilation is the problem
phf: because on assembly level you still have things like where things go, how you address those things and how you call subprocesses
phf: well, c-machine assembly level is not particularly good, but it's not guaranteed to be consisten either
mircea_popescu: no, i get it, "vneumann architecture is not lisp friendly". spare me, the vagina is not cock friendly.
mircea_popescu: point is, turning machine. equivalent to all others.
phf: that's not what i'm saying
mircea_popescu: say it again ?
phf: c-machine assembly level has a certain shape to it. when you write int foo { bar(); } an assembly of a certain pattern gets spit out
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the equivalence, in practice, is a null - different structures take vastly disproportionate effort and moving parts to implement, depending on machine design.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform shut up and work more. phf ok. so ?
phf: mircea_popescu: cmucl's assembly has a different pattern in order to support all the tricky-in-c-trivial-in-lisp code behaviors
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: we had a thread, but it would appear that original author of subj went into the jungle and never came out, so i dug out copy, https://web.archive.org/web/20111227150315/http://www.stripedgazelle.org/joey/dream.html << scheme r4rs interp. written in asm by hand.
mircea_popescu: and yes, evidently A LOT of asm by hand will go into this. guess what ? this is exactly what the fuck the early c people who made c possible in the sense of having rms hijack it 20 years later did.
phf: mircea_popescu: so in order to bridge the gap between the two you need knowledge of both patterns. cmucl has knowledge of its own, it doesn't also want to have knowledge of all the shit that goes into gcc
asciilifeform: much simpler animal than common lisp, or for that matter than any type of compiler. but imho it is the correct way to bootstrap.
mircea_popescu: without this - there'd be no c, just oddly "bootstrapped" nonsense on top of who the fuck even knows.
asciilifeform: and actually where i began when i was doing x86.
mircea_popescu: phf this is ~nonsense.
phf: how come?
mircea_popescu: it's self evidently nonsense, "my dream girl does not have any center of gravity defined for her tits. i'd like to meet her."
mircea_popescu: would you ? or wouldn't you ?
phf: in the town of shithole everyone has to wear knee high boots because roads are made of shit, if you want to do business in that town, would wearing knee high boots, while you prefer silk slippers make any kind of sense?
mircea_popescu: it is way the fuck better than wearing silk-slippers-with-ten-foot-pole-extending-from-the-sole-with-boot-foot-at-other-end "bootrsrap"
mircea_popescu: just find a way to silk-line wellingtons.
phf: well cmucl's approach is to hire some locals to carry a palanquin
mircea_popescu: ie, building coke machine for itself, then wondering at results.
phf: hindsight demonstrates that this might not be the best approach, because locals keep dropping the palanquin, etc.
asciilifeform: phf: except they are on close terms with the bottle and fall over regularly.
asciilifeform: planting you face-down in the mud.
phf: correct
asciilifeform: in the end, no cleaner than if you had walked.
mircea_popescu: dumbest approach ever, wearing silk-slippers-with-ten-foot-pole-extending-from-the-sole-with-boot-foot-at-other-end "bootstrap" is way better.
mircea_popescu: phf management, if half competent, could have spared you the need for hindsight. this is evidently wrong.
phf: but some people ~also~ tried silk-lined wellingtons, and those are even worse. trinque, once he decides to read clisp source code, will realize that the thing is ~unrecoverable~ under the weight of C-specific issues
mircea_popescu: and in general - the controlling point here is the two-jews-in-shitter joke.
asciilifeform read, and knows this
mircea_popescu: phf that some boys tried to talk to girls and didn't get anywhere is scarcely an argument.
phf: mircea_popescu: what would be the correct approach?
asciilifeform: pretty much every c proggy >2k or so lines is similarly unrecoverable 'under the weight.'
phf: write whole thing in c?
mircea_popescu: there is no need to have c specific issues in lisp. seriously. write the asm.
asciilifeform: aaaaaand this is how mircea_popescu arrives on the island where i sat in 2010.
mircea_popescu: you keep going back to this "my code runs in javascript via php" approach to life. it's nonsense. there's 0 need for c.
phf: well, for what it's worth rewriting cmucl vm in asm would be a gnarly but straightforward exercise
mircea_popescu: not a vm.
asciilifeform: it is great island, lush vegetation, but very little edibles.
mircea_popescu: or i guess... wtf does vm mean here ?
mircea_popescu: is kernel a "c vm" ?
phf: yeah, sorry that was ambigious
phf: no
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in this context, folks often say 'vm' when they are really describing emulator of a sane cpu arch.
phf: no!
phf: vm in this case means something closer to x86 bios
mircea_popescu: your application for thick condoms has been denied. rawdog that skank.
mircea_popescu: lisp is supposed to exist out of what, six primitives or some such ? write them in asm. once you're done the job's ~done.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that's the easy part
phf: mircea_popescu: that's not what the layer between os and lisp does in the case of sbcl/cmucl. it explicitly doesn't do primitives, because those are, like you said, written in lisp, that's compiled into native bytecode (using VOB's, i.e. chunks for assembly)
phf: *chunks of
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the difficult part is 'which skank.' it isn't 1988 and there is no standard pc arch.
mircea_popescu: pick one.
mircea_popescu: then pick another one.
mircea_popescu: then keep going.
phf: asciilifeform's arguing from a completely different architecture
mircea_popescu: phf i'm not so sure that's what i said though.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is gonna be the fpga thread all over again, isnnit. fact is, the 10,001 man-years are not available, and certainly not six times every morning before breakfast.
mircea_popescu: looky : either something's fundamentally broken with lisp, or else it has no "architecture" ; much in the way purple has no shape.
phf: sbcl/cmucl already compiles whatever code you ask it to to native, architecture specific assembly, that's not the C layer's role
mircea_popescu: phf so then what the fuck is the problem ?
asciilifeform: i'ma let phf finish before i return to the iron bit.
mircea_popescu: alright.
phf: mircea_popescu: problem is that when you do a execution like ./foo on unix, ~unix~ expects "foo" to contain certain bits and do certain kind of work to appease unix upfront. that work is specific not to "x86" but to "linux v 1.1.2, compiled on full moon, by three blind monks"
mircea_popescu: phf there is no unix.
mircea_popescu: what unix ?
phf: linux
mircea_popescu: no linux either.
mircea_popescu: you just said, lisp compiles to native bytecode.
phf: i did
mircea_popescu: so then ? i didn't import any linux anything.
phf: well, but you're trying to run it on your linux correct? or we're talking pure hardware layer
mircea_popescu: i am trying to run it on an x86.
phf: but how do you start it?
mircea_popescu: it produces asm for the x86, it runs on it.
phf: i mean do you start it from inside a linux?
mircea_popescu: suppose for this discussion it's already started ; else yes, you need a running machine to compile your image as we said.
phf: no no
mircea_popescu: no dude, forget fucking linux altogether. who cares.
phf: but it's the whole point!
mircea_popescu: the whole point of stupid, yes, "let's make ada work in php!"
mircea_popescu: "it's great because well documented"
phf: programs that have to run on linux don't behave like dos COM files
phf: you know dos "com", which was just a flat sequence of bytecodes and when you did foo.com it would just start executing foo.com with the first byte
mircea_popescu: now you're going to import dos into this discussion ?
mircea_popescu: holy hell! the processor takes opcodes. you produce the opcodes. that's it!
phf: we agree on that point, and lisp is capable of doing this
mircea_popescu: so then let it do this and no more.
phf: it doesn't do anything more than that
mircea_popescu: well i don't see any c/linux/dos/etc in here ?
phf: are you running it on a linux system? because ~if and only if~ that you are you have to bring something extra into the picture
mircea_popescu: i am not running it on a linux system.
mircea_popescu: lisp is the system.
mircea_popescu: there's the following parts : hardware, including memory, cpu, disk etc. we shall call this x86 for short, even if it's a longer story ; tll, which is a compiler. does exactly same as the gcc does in linux : takes lisp code, spits out bytecode ; and finally the lelnel, which does what the kernel does in linux.
mircea_popescu: now, x86 i can already buy, which of tll, lelnel don't exist and what's the excuse.
phf: well, you don't need C for that and there are no excuses
phf: just nobody done it
mircea_popescu: so then for shame, all these dickheads going around holding their heads in their hands and talking about dumb shit while doing no useful work.
mircea_popescu: linux happened in a few years, need i remind you, and those were earlier, drier years.
phf: the thing that ascii mentions he'd pay for "cmucl on hardware" explicitly involves ripping out C code and then doing necessary work to support some minimum set of x86 drivers like keyboards etc.
asciilifeform: i blew years on it and then realized that the hardware is shit .
mircea_popescu: tll-lelnel can exist by 2018.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but you also realised the hardware was shit that time we went to olympus and venus asked you to fuck her.
mircea_popescu: tell you what : the hardware's the hardware and the software's the shit.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the hardware is very literally shit. e.g., ever heard of acpi ?
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1543731 << All we've got is today, it works when you work it (tm)(r)
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 05:58 adlai is incidentally now sober for the longest he's been in weeks - and he has a loaded vape within arm's reach - so i'd say step one is not that relevant >> http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160826/#219
phf: mircea_popescu: the real reason it's not been done is because it's fucking hard and nobody cared enough to spend the necessary man years
mircea_popescu: sure, sure.
mircea_popescu: that's also the reason steam engine wasn't done by greeks.
mircea_popescu: too fucking smart for their god damned own good.
asciilifeform: the other bit is, just as in the fpga thread, by the time anyone ~does~ spend the man-years, the requisite hardware is unavailable. see, e.g., 'movitz'.
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1543758 << Stereotypical last drunk seems to be X beers and a blackout where X<4
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:16 ben_vulpes: some people go crazy, some people have crazy high tolerances, some people even eat a shitload over a long time and then one day break, the variance is wild and statistical claims cannot be made beyond "oh fuck might hose your brain under entirely unknowable circumstances but hey have fun with the tradeoff analysis kid"
phf: the linux approach actually's been done twice, i.e. write something shitty, but it boots and then improve it until it's somewhat ok. there's https://common-lisp.net/project/movitz/ and https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano
mircea_popescu: what killed these ?
phf: the problem is that then you're stuck redoing many man years of rewriting cmucl/sbcl in them
mircea_popescu: i can't parse that. say again ?
asciilifeform: building railroad bridge out of toothpicks.
phf: movitz and mezzano are common lisp compilers, they are just shitty ones. they are good enough to boot an os on x86, but they are missing bits (large chunks of standard) because nobody's written those
mircea_popescu: how is this a drawback ?
mircea_popescu: i mean, is there some fundamental reason such can't be written ? that's a problem. otherwise...
asciilifeform: no fundamental reason. just as railway bridge could, in principle, be glued from toothpicks.
mircea_popescu: so then it seems to be that it is an offense before the gods and an insult to man when in any discussion of lisp anyone proposes any other solution than "pick either movitz or mezzano"
phf: i think one could take either of those and turn them into real systems, the way we did with trb, but it's the same class of work
mircea_popescu: fuck all your dumbass sbcl cmucl mcclim et all
asciilifeform: and the hardware ~is~ shit. boot up one of these (if you can actually get it to boot.) and say hello to 1 fps graphics, disks without dma (you don't know what these feel like until trying personally), nic that works when the moon is full strictly, etc.
phf: i'm not sure mezzano boots on native hardware, movitz i did boot, and it's basically what you would expect out of DOS
mircea_popescu: you apparently don't recall early linux worth twopence.
asciilifeform: movitz is worse yet because it is ~married~ to 32-bit x86
phf: well, only in a sense that it's written for it? i'm not sure married is the right word
mircea_popescu: be all this as it may, time to grow up and stop pretending adult lisp is anything but these two.
asciilifeform: phf: a MB of hand-written asm, and reliance on x86-32isms, e.g., segmentation, is 'married'.
mircea_popescu: "emulated" toys for chitlines, dear god.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they're dead ends.
mircea_popescu: everything else is.
asciilifeform: also is.
mircea_popescu: make a third, but in this direction, not in that, if you will.
phf: asciilifeform: oh, i thought for some reason they had civilized VOPs and such
asciilifeform: phf: why take my word for it, thing was published, eons ago, read.
phf: asciilifeform: that wasn't a challenge, i was just disappointed
asciilifeform: but mircea_popescu has it, the sane approach involves 0 c and 0 unix, and i came to this conclusion in '07.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, the tasks are here in my vierws overstated. linux had the tasks as hard as described, and it did break through, on shittier internet with fewer people milling about. lisp already has c code it can read for many of the drivers etc. this is major advantage. easier job to come 2nd.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: try to understand that linux is barely a thing at runtime. whereas a lisp os has to make up for 10,001 idiocies of the hardware, e.g., lack of garbage collector, lack of type bits in every (yes) machine word that get tested on every (yes) arithmetic operation, etc.
phf: mircea_popescu: people basically come to same conclusion, and then when it comes to putting in "2 years of living from inside an os without youtube" balk
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the two are really not comparable.
mircea_popescu: what can i tell ye.
asciilifeform: and if you use ANY 'c code in the drivers' you get gabriel_laddel.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform those are not disadvantages but advantages.
asciilifeform: spoon of shit in barrel of wine.
mircea_popescu: and i don't propose use c code whatsoever.
phf: asciilifeform: i suspect mp mean's "read it in c and write in your own language"
mircea_popescu: but because you can read it, you get to see vendor magic numbers.
mircea_popescu: phf has it.
phf: which would be consistent with the v threads
asciilifeform: pointing out that the intrinsic complexity far exceeds linux, bsd, whichever c os, kernel.
mircea_popescu: eh get out.
mircea_popescu: intrinsic addable-value far exceeds, yes, which is why we're even talking.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: understand, addition there is no longer 'ADD rax, rbx' but a pound of type bit checks and possible code paths on failure or type-promotion etc.
mircea_popescu: if you're not dumb you probably implement matrix-calls for functions.
asciilifeform: things that the silicon ought to be doing. and ~WAS~ doing in 1976.
phf: but yes, cmucl in this channel started because i was thinking of porting it to hardware. it's obviously what every lisper wants/tries to at some point. in order to achieve it though, i kind of have to read and grok and read again the code the cmucl code, which is what i've been doing..
mircea_popescu: ie, "this our lisp os only works on processors with no less than 8 cores. because we keep all these things pre-loaded and ready to go, and then every time you try to add we do 16 checks in one tick. one op mujlti data ftw!!1"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: believe or not, i thought of this.
mircea_popescu: phf imagine if you will, the beauty of a system where "threads" make no sense in the first place.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it dun work because, again, pc arch is retarded. the processors fight over the bus.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so good for you! none of this is any sort of genius, just systematic refusal of dumbassery.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ah but they don't have to!
asciilifeform: they share the bottleneck.
mircea_popescu: yes but you can definitely play to it.
mircea_popescu: in short, unwittingly perhaps, the extant x86 architecture ACTUALLY FAVOURS running a lisp machine over running a c machine.
phf: mircea_popescu: well, from that perspective "no threads!!" is kind of irrelevant, because it's just less things to try and get operational on raw hardware. pretty sure nyef had to pull threads from sbcl when trying to get it running on raw hardware..
asciilifeform: let's say the 8 cores operate on same memory location. how do they maintain cache coherence when writing output ?
mircea_popescu: phf this is not at all waht i meant.
phf: mircea_popescu: i missed the point
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform also not what i meant.
mircea_popescu: yea, this is a nutty point, so let me write it out in detail.
mircea_popescu: in c, no checks are performed and you're welcome to go fuck yourself. consequently, c exposes internals of cpu to user, so as to better hang himself. as seen eg in case of eulora client usage of one core and a trillion other places.
asciilifeform: no, it was a ~reasonable~ point, but when you go and try to actually implement it, on actual iron, it drives you to nuttery. because the thing is encrusted with unfathomable layer of undocumented turdolade and 'no this doesn't actually work, because fuckyou'
mircea_popescu: in lisp as discussed here, and generally, a lot of checks are to be performed. this happens to jive well with a matrix calling system for functions and the muiticore design of cpu. because you as lisp will just a) maintain a matrix of all checks to be perfromed as functions and b) keep them permagoing on all processorss. so this way, the cpu count influences internal parallelism in the os, and thus os speed ; not program spee
mircea_popescu: d per se. except in the benefit that its checks will progress this much faster.
mircea_popescu: that make any sense ?
asciilifeform: yes. and it made sense to me in '07. but not in '10 when i understood how the actual extant pc iron works.
mircea_popescu: you documented any of these somewhere, so phf doesn't need to do himself ?
asciilifeform: which is not at all like the naive, reasonable conception pictured here.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is documented, and you won't like it at all, e.g., here -- http://developer.amd.com/resources/developer-guides-manuals
phf: well, the main question is "what's a reasonable baseline" to keep you inside the os long enough so that you can keep hacking at it
asciilifeform: and yes, ALL of it is - unfortunately - pertinent.
asciilifeform: there is not, and will not ever be, a 10 page useful compression of it.
asciilifeform: the whole bag of shit is required.
asciilifeform: i have the dead trees, they fill most of a shelf.
phf: in case of linux reasonable baseline was a dialup telnet
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i was looking for something stictly in the following formula : as part of trying to execute subset X of task Y part of recognizable-primitive Z because so-and so, i came to the method k for theoretical reasons t1 throiugh tn ; attempting to implement it i encountered situation Q even through this makes no sense ; trying to adapt it i encountered exception Q.e1 which is contrary to design philosophy, and attempti
mircea_popescu: ng alternative I encountered explicit block N which etc.
asciilifeform: phf: linux wasn't trying to multiprocessorate every arithmetic instruction etc.
mircea_popescu: nothing else is useful.
phf: because linus wanted to telnet to his university machine, he could do his jerking off on a remote system, while chipping away at his surrounded setup
mircea_popescu: learn to document in that format because else we're stuck redoing your work while you sadly cry on the side.
phf: asciilifeform: nah, different kind of reasonable baseline
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: a good chunk of what i've done here since showing up is to try and fill in the gaps in the 'pioneer with arrows in his back' part of my www.
asciilifeform: with variable success, sure.
mircea_popescu: hey, i'm not saying you're bad
mircea_popescu: just pointing out that without the exact formula described, knowledge's not terribly useful, and deifnitely not well communciable.
phf: fwiw i went through the same exercise, and on account of being less of a depressive came out with different attitude
asciilifeform: http://support.amd.com/TechDocs/42301_15h_Mod_00h-0Fh_BKDG.pdf << and before anyone asks, it is neither available in any other format, nor accurately convertible -- is sufficient illustration of my point. flip through it and weep.
mircea_popescu: see, but this isn't supposed to be a comparison of fucking emotional states.
mircea_popescu: good god of all goofs!
mircea_popescu goes away to punish someone for something.
phf is finally free to go get breakfast
phf: take movitz, take lice https://web.archive.org/web/20080624230234/http://www.emmett.ca/~sabetts/, add tcpip stack to it, add irc. what else one needs for tmsr-ing
asciilifeform: phf: we don't even have sane vga on ~linux~ yet.
asciilifeform: (i.e. sans proprietary turds)
phf: if bios driven 640x480 is good enough for terry davis, it's good enough for me
asciilifeform: cue mircea_popescu: 'it works great on my t40! 640x480 is enough for anyone'
asciilifeform: phf: it is possible to make a useful machine with 0 video (serves x11 over nic).
asciilifeform: phf: unfortunately is is ~not~ possible to do without, e.g., disk dma.
asciilifeform: not if you want to do anything resembling, say, bitcoin node.
asciilifeform: or logs db. or, or.
phf: nfs :>
phf: genera it up all the way
asciilifeform: i worked at a rupturefarm once where we made a massive cluster of diskless boxen.
asciilifeform: the realities, as often is, differ from the idealities.
asciilifeform: link - saturates.
phf: oh yeah of course
asciilifeform: and box that has persistent storage drop out from under it, ever, for any reason, is in a sad state.
asciilifeform: and with networked 'disk' this is a regular thing.
phf: if i were to bootstrap a lisp os from nothingness, i'd just save-lisp over network (or to a drive, depending on which one i figure out how to do first) every once in a while, and yes it's eww and completely suboptimal, but it'll be enough for me for a "i can do practical shit with this system"
asciilifeform: how will you save the nic state registers ?
asciilifeform: the disk controller's ?
asciilifeform: good chunk of'em aren't even memory-mapped.
asciilifeform: (and many of the ones that are, don't read correctly)
asciilifeform: lemme guess, your save-lisp would just ignore the peripherals, which get inited every time.
asciilifeform: welcome to lisp on linux.
asciilifeform: where there's a lisp layer and a liquishit layer.
asciilifeform: and massive layer of gas mask (with many holes) between them.
phf: yes.
phf: slightly less liquid shit though :p
asciilifeform: i'm not convinced.
phf: weren't you saying something about cleaning latriness
asciilifeform: cleaning has a meaning
asciilifeform: thing gets ~less dirty~
phf: fwiw save-lisp of nic state and disk controller state is always a question of degree. either will have to be re-initialized in general, same way as it's careless and possibly meaningless to "save state of running lathe with a component"
asciilifeform: let's do what mircea_popescu asked and work a concrete example.
asciilifeform: i hunted for years and found what imho is the simplest GB/s-capable nic, the rt8168. here is the linux driver, https://github.com/mtorromeo/r8168/tree/master/src
asciilifeform: (1000s of lines of magicola)
asciilifeform: i actually sat for 6 months or so and reimplemented this thing in asm
asciilifeform: and ended up with a thing that, per the data sheet, ought to work, but never did.
phf: why asm??
phf: write a handful of systems level vops, write rest in lisp
asciilifeform: phf: the thing needs real-time interrupt handling just to init.
asciilifeform: and evidently i kept missing some detail.
asciilifeform: none of the warmup process is in any sense debuggable, either
asciilifeform: if the thing dun go, there is physically no way to determine why it dun go.
asciilifeform: i suspect that NO ONE has ever drivered this thing from scratch. not the winblows folks, either.
asciilifeform: everybody simply took vendor's magic routines.
phf: can you attempt a warm up multiple times without power cycling?
asciilifeform: phf: nope. it wedges.
asciilifeform: oh did i mention that the pci bus has to be correctly set up also ?
asciilifeform: and if you think the bios does this for you, you're probably posting from 1995.
asciilifeform: oh and witness the sheer number of busy-waits, e.g., https://github.com/mtorromeo/r8168/blob/master/src/r8168_n.c#L4885
phf: why would i think that? i'd probably go to a lesser N/s target until i can get it to work
asciilifeform: any and all of these are opportunities for deadlocking.
asciilifeform: phf: what target ?
phf: until i can get ~that~ to work rather. then i wouldn't be as pressed to get r8168 working or bust
asciilifeform: there ISN'T a 'simple' nic.
asciilifeform: that you can buy.
asciilifeform: it is a mythical thing, that does not exist on the market.
asciilifeform: they are ALL at least as bad as linked item.
asciilifeform: i had ~all the extant ones brought in (this was a commercial project) and obtained data sheets, etc.
phf: i've had on linux nic drivers before and in 2005 or so not all of them were 20k+ lines that's for sure
phf: *hacked on
asciilifeform: ^ does not successfully run any example of the actual chip i was able to get my hands on.
asciilifeform: this is the kind of thing that drives folks to the bottle, to the nuthouse.
phf: i'm not convinced that this is not the case of "mp's t40 is too old and slow"
asciilifeform: phf: if you'd like to try to, e.g., bitcoin, on a 10M nic, be my guest.
phf: ha
asciilifeform: (not even speaking of network disk! or x11 etc.)
phf: ha!
asciilifeform: or serving up www.
asciilifeform: under ddos.
phf: you're just shifting targets here
asciilifeform: nope. describing the various uses of a comp
asciilifeform: at any rate, i would have implemented a 10baseT nic driver, IF ANYONE COULD SOURCE THE FUCKING CHIP
asciilifeform: no one could.
asciilifeform: outside of museum.
phf: if your nic can't accomodate for those things, then your computer can't do those things, but it might not be a problem for the first year
asciilifeform: again, this isn't a case of 'it'll be a 10baseT until i get around to X', it's a case of 'init or go cry'
asciilifeform: the thing doesn't fallback to some 'pretent it is 1995' mode
asciilifeform: where you don't need the 30k lines.
asciilifeform: *pretend
phf: ok, you've convinced me that all is hopeless and there's no point in trying
asciilifeform: well, if anyone can find me a nic !
asciilifeform: it is possible to make a very useful box where ONLY cpu/ram and nic work.
asciilifeform: can even do without disk, for certain applications
asciilifeform: (it can, e.g, readily serve www, or even gossipd etc)
asciilifeform: working with the 8168 woke me up to the fact that i was wrong when naively thought that hardware were still made by sane folk
asciilifeform: it isn't
asciilifeform: consider how the thing expects real-time (1000s/sec) interrupt handling, but ALSO has 1,001 places where you must busy-wait for some register bit to flip
asciilifeform: before you can proceed
asciilifeform: and this is absolutely sop.
phf: ok, but nobody here thinks that, the whole point i'm trying to make is that there are ways to overcome the ennui to do what needs to be done
asciilifeform: how? by masamuneing the thing into a c turd ?
asciilifeform: no thx.
asciilifeform: for one thing, you're then stuck with linux's pci and interrupt stack.
phf: why would i even entertain that thought, it should be quiet clear at this point that i've at no point suggested or plan to use C in a lisp os
asciilifeform: well let's work the example phf
phf: no way
asciilifeform: how would you deal with the nic
asciilifeform: and if your answer is 'buy another one' i'm all ears
asciilifeform: and wallet - open
phf: you're saying it's straight up impossible (or approaching that) to get, say, movitz doing networking on real hardware hardware, and i'm calling shenanigans
phf: in terms of what movitz offers of course (without bringing in pre-compiled C blobs)
asciilifeform: it isn't impossible, there were various experiments, e.g., https://github.com/dym/movitz/blob/master/losp/x86-pc/dp8390.lisp
asciilifeform: but they involved iron that is no longer obtainable in any qty.
asciilifeform: to the point that i have nfi even if the linked driver runs at all.
phf: any meaning 1, >1, >10, >tmsr army size?
asciilifeform: 8390 was a product in 1995.
phf: well, main question is what you going to plug isa into :p
asciilifeform: the spittoon, phf, is in one strand.
asciilifeform: !#s spittoon
phf: all that analogy did for me is that every time i think asciilifeform, i remember the fucking spittoon
phf: sort of like there was always that one kid who'd eat bugs on a dare
asciilifeform: nah that's many. the one kid is that one who eats bugs without dare.
phf: :D
asciilifeform: http://www.osdever.net/documents/WritingDriversForTheDP8390.pdf?the_id=56 << back in the day, they even had asm snippets in the ds.
phf: pretty sure tits used to be bigger too
asciilifeform: now switching from the depressive tack, to the crackpot track, i ~did~ get high speed uart going on one of those all-in-one amd64 boxes.
asciilifeform: so potentially we could 'scheme in asm with uart' on that.
asciilifeform: and go from it, to ???., very slowly.
mircea_popescu: god damn it.
mircea_popescu: so apparently every saturday is "mp can't process logs" day.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 03:34 trinque hums don't fear the reaper
phf: i can just leave this on, until his bot is operational
mircea_popescu: now let's catch up with this monster.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#308 << i thought we had this encrypted-drive vs encrypted-file megatheread, but anyway. the notion of an encrypted ~container~ is fundamentally braindamaged. stick to encrypting items.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 03:37 trinque: braindamaged thing uses the same command to init a drive as attach the softraid again next time
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: interestingly enough, we had this thread prior to the 'block ciphers don't even exist' thread.
asciilifeform: so at the time, the logical objection was 'pwned comp will merrily present the familiar pw prompt and decrypt for enemy'
asciilifeform: to which there was a counter, 'cipher with hardware interposer between disk and comp'
asciilifeform: but block ciphers, it turns out, don't exist...
mircea_popescu: though if you re-read, that objection was there, unexpressed.
asciilifeform: objection was, fundamentally, 'os that prompts for pw is promisetronic, can retain pw if it wants'
asciilifeform: which is 100% factual.
mircea_popescu: and also that "enemy will decrypt your disk and fuck you"
asciilifeform: thread was about ~how~ enemy decrypt and fucks
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:18 ben_vulpes: just two weekends ago i had to excise some rust-welded nuts that didn't have clearance for a socket wrench.
asciilifeform: phosphoric acid
asciilifeform: (active ingredient in, e.g., 'naval jelly', which i dare say works better)
mircea_popescu: he doesn't have a toolbox ; but he does have all the convenience of convenience stores!
asciilifeform: even in hogmilklandia one can buy phosophoric acid without corn syrup. for now.
asciilifeform: *phosphoric
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#348 << it's entirely unclear to me why you think the hieroglyph is noteworthy. sure, in the context of "let's draw hyeroglyphs", it's as good as many other alternatives. in the context of "let's describe basic trigonometry", it's not particularly useful. and you'll realise this the moment you break out of tedtalktardism "i'll rely on the margins of the box as drawn by magic hand for absolut
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:18 adlai has been reviewing math towards next month's semester start. just encountered a beautiful "fits in head" derivation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AngleAdditionDiagramSine.svg
mircea_popescu: e truthiness and just follow the hand", such pinnacle of achievement in imbecility, and try to fucking draw the outer square yourself.
mircea_popescu: "oh, with provided premeasured tools this table is just long enough" hurr.
asciilifeform: euclid nervously smokes in the corner
mircea_popescu: no but really. "given the circle cvadrature, isn't this escherian trestlework ever so informative ?"
mircea_popescu: this is what your dumbass "modern democracy" aka "human rights" aka "illuminism" aka "usg" aka "eu" aka "western civilisation" aka dumb shit is doing for you : gives you a pen.
mircea_popescu: wherein to run around like headless chickens. if a headless chicken.
phf: euclid's elements are literate, if you look at the extant copies, they have drawings of shapes with labels, but all the details are otherwise in text
mircea_popescu: "we are the premiere science and technology institution in the world. and we can't light a lightbulb. both of these for the exact same reason - we "learned" from wikipedia, ted talks, and other inept contrivances."
mircea_popescu: phf more fucking importantly, it contains no hidden bits. such as "how did you build the square"
mircea_popescu: every drawing in euclid's a REAL drawing.
mircea_popescu: because the man's brain wasn't rotten by virtuality, and fetishism, and ustardism.
asciilifeform: one of these days i'd like to learn who rotted j. c. maxwell's brain, and with what
mircea_popescu: what are you talking aboot ?
asciilifeform: ( recall, herr maxwell was quite unable to visualize the system he worked with, without resorting to mechanical - yes - gears and pulleys )
mircea_popescu: that's not the problem here discussed.
mircea_popescu: the problem here discussed is when the fucking chickens are shown an impossible object and they cluck right along, "oh, look how great".
asciilifeform: in part it was. it is how he came up with the terrifyingly ugly 20-equations-in-20-unknowns thing
mircea_popescu: maybe. /me didn't know the man.
asciilifeform: in re the chickens, i cannot disagree, they are clucking not so far from where i sit, at the local 'university'
mircea_popescu: this is "if chicken were spherical and in vacuum"++. "if building cvadrature of circle is trivial, then here's a drawing for adding angles"
mircea_popescu: "and if your mother had any taste you wouldn't be here."
mircea_popescu: anyway. i guess unintentionally the problem with pictographics ("it hides things from you! they came bite you in ass latere!") was yet again, for the uncountablyest time, shown in all its nude glory.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/09/not-quite-news-roundup-xtend-6-tmr/ << Qntra - Not Quite News Roundup Xtend 6 (TM)(R)
asciilifeform: 'But if blockchain is to move beyond cryptocurrency and lab experiments to real and profitable deployments, we need to challenge conventional orthodoxy and rethink the role of absolute immutability. Perhaps we will then soon be able to read more about blockchain’s achievements rather than its potential.' << l0l!!
asciilifeform: 'One thing is clear: If the financial services industry is to embrace a new technology, it cannot be one in which mischief and mistakes are immutable and fraudsters can defend their actions on spurious ideological grounds. '
asciilifeform: i thought #1 rule of 'unhappening' an event was to ~stop prattling on about it~
asciilifeform: but apparently i have nfi 'HOW WORLD WORX' etc.
mircea_popescu: what the fuck.
mircea_popescu: "real and profitable experiments" PAST cryptocurrency ?
mircea_popescu: tell you what, nothing the us did this year compares. what the fuck is with the pinoy.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform where did ytou even get the turd from ?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo's 'roundup'
asciilifeform: where else.
asciilifeform: 2nd link in latest qntra.
asciilifeform: or rather 1st
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:24 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu et al: in other not-quite-noose, 'To every pair p, q of distinct primes there correspond 9 positive integers x no larger than pq such that x^c ≡ x mod (pq) for every odd positive integer c. Therefore these 9 messages x are unconcealable in any Rivest-Shamir-Adleman public key cryptosystem which has the product pq for its encoding modulus.'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: so - lulzy if you 'get lucky'
mircea_popescu: "there are 9 4096 bit strings for any given privkey to which you can not encrypt or decrypt."
asciilifeform: mno, that's not it
mircea_popescu: this kinda follows from definitions, and moreover ... the odds, montresor.
asciilifeform: to which encryption == plaintext.
asciilifeform: and yes, odds are ~= asteroid.
asciilifeform: linked as an arithmetical curio strictly.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#377 << because what'd they say, that they believe themselves useless and a scourge upon the local community ?
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:33 asciilifeform: 'While details of Cook’s actions and the alleged threat have not been publicly released, law enforcement officials have said they believe the threat was real, but has been stopped by Cook’s arrest. “There’s been no evidence to suggest the involvement of anyone else locally and no evidence that I’m aware of that indicates anyone is on their way here,” Gibbons said. “The intervention happened early enough to prevent this
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:40 covertress: mircea_popescu: i regret to inform you that i will not be attending our dinner 26-Sept
phf: "dhs prevents countless terrorist attacks each year, which we are not at liberty to discuss as they will compromise ongoing and future investigations"
asciilifeform: death ray plot!1111111
mircea_popescu: countless in the sense of exactly 0.
mircea_popescu: which technically denotes a countable countless set.
asciilifeform: remember, remember, the nth of shitember, the deathray treason and plot! i know of no reason, why deathray treason, should ever be forgot!11111111
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1520239 << the entry point of this mysterious "our dinner 26-sept".
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 23:24 mircea_popescu: get in touch when you're here, i'll send someone to pick you up or such covertress .
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:45 adlai: i thought the EFF was suing mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#402 << i have nfi who "patrick" is, but if it's that douchebag murck involved with the vesseness "bitcoin foundation" scam, he has a lot bigger problems than idly posturing around ethereum's corpse/propellerhat
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:43 covertress: mircea_pepescu: i had wished to convey Patrick's offer to represent you against the EF.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#413 << the logs dun scale huh. shall we have to introduce per-line fees ? :D
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:46 phf: adlai: same code and data that was taking up ~~500mb with cmucl blew up lispworks to 4gb, and now blowing up sbcl to 1gb, which results in heap exhaustion errors, despite the fact that there's still extra heap available
mircea_popescu: !!gettrust deedbot covertress
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 0 by 4 connections.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:54 adlai always feels some sorrow when people (lowercase 'P') faceplant over these hurdles
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#475 << ahahaha ok this was pretty epic.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:59 covertress: i reject your reality, and submit my own
mircea_popescu: are you operating under admirality law adlai ?
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#509 << thanks! and remember - September, the International Women Discarded As Garbage Day! do your bit to raise awareness!
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 05:08 mod6: fwiw, nice tit(s) on the blindfolded trilema girl
mod6: haha, ok!
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#518 << i dunno what school you went to ; but think about the geometric meaning of tan for a second.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 05:14 adlai: more stuff i never learned in school: tanA + tanB + tanC = tanA * tanB * tanC
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#527 << this is such idiocy. what cheap. seriously, it's cheap ? any of these jokers ever stood down system with tb ram or what exactly are they on about.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 05:24 phf: one of the reasons i went with cmucl originally is because it has known tight memory behavior and sbcl dev equally famous stance that "memory is cheap", which, for the case of keeping log in memory, was discouraging
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#530 << motherfucker. one day i'm going to find the lame dumbass who told bored middleaged women they have any business involving themselves in the political process and feed him to baby turtles.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 05:51 phf: i'll bring it back probably tonight. i've got tea pot, i've got hookah, i've got a fuck you to "no smoking in building" complaints
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#532 << i was dry until about halfway through the log, at which point went and poured myself some cognac. this stuff promotes drunkedness, tis clear.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 05:56 adlai: what's with all the shitty drugs? i step away from irc-every-day for a couple months, suddenly everybody's fiending alcohol, tobacco, and firearms^H^H^Hcaffeine?
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#546 << wait, did you bust some dude's face ?
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:11 adlai: the more nuanced answer recognizes that i was hospitalized as a direct result of an argument, which would not have happened if i'd left the house with a sweater that morning. so... don't forget to bring a towel?
mircea_popescu: or are you the weird sort that assaults the woman for cheating rather than the dude she's cheating with.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#547 << wait, what ? you somehow believe the same helping of paracetamol kills all people or somesuch ? because what, you've seen on tv that the same gunshot hole kills all people ?
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:11 ben_vulpes: i'm going to go out on a limb and doubt that there's enough data even on variation in human sensitivity to drugs much less by class and genotype to even be making claims about "LD50"
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#554 << how to correctly allocate which doses correspond to which effects is, of course, a science reserved for the truly heroic.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:14 adlai: that's a tricky claim. i've taken much, much, much larger doses than the ones that (indirectly!) led to the aforementioned bad situations. i think YGFS50 depends much more on "set and setting" than on a molecule's shape and headcount
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#562 << let's instead talk of bridges. badly designed brigde will collapse in rush hour. or maybe not in rush hour. or maybe while closed for repairs, because heavy winds. or maybe just of old age. or perhaps for other reasons. however you model psychoactives - as cars, or as winds ; however you model other people being assholes, cars, winds - fact remains that the less it's used the less it
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:16 phf: psychotic episode, later diagnosed as bipolar after ~~1 year of weekly mushroom use. split personality after one mushroom use (guy believes that the second person inside of him is god). psychotic episode after weed/lsd combination. obviously all diagnosed and hospitalized at one point or another
mircea_popescu: collapses, the better it's built the less it collapses and that finally age conquers all.
mircea_popescu: inasmuch as it's a bridge, use it for car traffic rather than as a wind foil ; and pray the architect wasn't a whore fucking drunks. that's about all.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: poor model. dynamic system, like jet fighter, not static, like bridge.
asciilifeform: and similar faustian deal.
asciilifeform: as the jet.
mircea_popescu: sure, sure.
mircea_popescu: bridge is dynamic system though. just slow.
asciilifeform: see the 'housewife sanity' thread.
mircea_popescu: (yes all bridges move. no such thing as a rigid bridge since many years nao)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ~built~ to be maximally static.
mircea_popescu: the brain is built to be maximally static.
asciilifeform: mno. it learns,
mircea_popescu: this does not settle the point.
mircea_popescu: that it provides you with the delusion of learning to match the societal hallucination of "progress" doth not mean it moved.
asciilifeform: ahahahahaha delusion lolk we had the 'man spends life learning to be a mouse' thread already, n times
mircea_popescu: not what was necessarily meant.
mircea_popescu: but notice that the child "learning" to, eg, walk, is hardly something YOU give it. from outside like.
asciilifeform: hey i said 'learns' not 'taught'
mircea_popescu: just as well could say "and when i was three i put toddling things aside and took my place as king of the walking"
mircea_popescu: yes, but there wasn't any movement there.
asciilifeform: aaah now i gotta go and buy new gas mask canister, lel, bbl.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#562 << fwiw there's no psychotic ouverture of bipolar. 1st case mostly sounds as usgistan "let's call it something"/
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:16 phf: psychotic episode, later diagnosed as bipolar after ~~1 year of weekly mushroom use. split personality after one mushroom use (guy believes that the second person inside of him is god). psychotic episode after weed/lsd combination. obviously all diagnosed and hospitalized at one point or another
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#568 << if this were true we'd be keeping most of the us in white cells.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:20 trinque: crazy is a blunt term for "woefully inaccurate self/world model compared to others" but certainly exists.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#572 << ostracism is maybe a matter of being crafty, but crazy dun enter into it.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:23 adlai: i don't think that an ~animal~ which avoids starvation, dehydration, ostracism, and greivous bodily harm, can be counted crazy
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#575 << yes, actually, it does. identity confusion is literally being crazy. it's one thing to have notions about supernatural forces which may help you through shamanism or going to church. it's another to believe you're "really" the other gender etc.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:25 adlai: to pick a concrete example, if that alice0meta thinks she's a dead person's tulpa, that in and of itself, doesn't make her out of touch with consensus reality, any more than some people believe in http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_life_of_jesus/the_empty_tomb/jn20_01.html
mircea_popescu: evidently, not all crazy requires medical support ; and often the nuts are quite subclinical. but anyway.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#588 << they're just inept. crazy discusses the subjective reflection of reality ; not much else. can die as perfectly sane inept losers. the quoted south african ( http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-11#1500956 ) is a fine example of such. you can equally well be insane, a la arthur blair. "oh, i am an english socialist, though socialsm is necessarily the end of being english, and i'm aware of t
a111: Logged on 2016-07-11 12:27 mircea_popescu: "If you are white, no positive, active role is left to you. Either you accommodate yourself to the unreasonable, or you play out your life in some futile back alley. You are doomed to this by the disgraceful history of your kind. Maybe it's fair, maybe it's not, but it is the way things are." << from another schmuck with a nobel prize.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:31 adlai: the definition isn't watertight yet, since it counts somebody who starves due to famine as crazy... but then again, mircea_popescu counts poor somalians as stupid, so ~shrug~
mircea_popescu: "liberals" are insane by simple virtue of being liberals, working on the exact same orwellian rails ; and "transgender" derps by simple virtue of gender confusion. a bunch of indian peons dying in a stampede aren't insane, partly because they're too poor to be insane, partly because they're too stupid to be insane. admitting these can even be distinct.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:37 phf: what about poetry
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#608 << this merely confuses (and counterproductively) the self-doubt of the intelligent virgin boy with the self-confusion of the nut.
mircea_popescu: these aren't the same thing ; even if admittedly the virginal youth is ill equipped to see the difference.
mircea_popescu: (male virginity, in this context, is resolved strictly through taking ownership of women and other things ; not through "having sex", especially if that's practiced as some sort of mutual play)
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#627 << you failing to read the manual doesn't make the scalar stupid or useless. F.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:47 adlai: stupid useless scalar
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 09:23 adlai: phf: speaking of 2nd-personality-gods, have you/rfriend ever heard of jaynes' bicameral mind theory?
mircea_popescu: so i guess that's ANOTHER F for adlai ; to celebrate his first day back to "all day ircing".
mircea_popescu: careful you don't follow covertress on the path to housewifry, jew.
shinohai: afaik she failed at housewifery too
BingoBoingo: That would explain a lot.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 17:03 phf is finally free to go get breakfast
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#960 << the question is not without merit. with irc and rsa one should be all set ; seeing how trinque is working to put bitcoin payments into deedbot ; the bots read lines and etc...
mircea_popescu: seems to me a fine definition of "working computer" is irc+rsa.
mircea_popescu: and seeing how the "irc" side is vaguely slated for replacement by the end of the decade ; and it should be bouncer-mediated anyway, just plaintext-net works as an "irc"
mircea_popescu: curl, tail and rsa.
mod6: im gonna get me one of these xilinx boards.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#1001 << this is a very useful sort of datapoint. didja write / are you writing an article with details ? publish the resulyting driver ? discussion ? etc ?
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 17:38 asciilifeform: and ended up with a thing that, per the data sheet, ought to work, but never did.
mircea_popescu: !!up framedr_ghetto
deedbot: framedr_ghetto voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: hello from rome. how is the ghetto ?
framedr_ghetto: hah! greetings from ned territory.
framedr_ghetto: i'm on a guest network with no access to server. i don't know why scriba is acting up. shall be investigated tomorrow but not before
framedr_ghetto: the one day when btcbase was being updated and scriba was wanted, it failed. :/
framedr_ghetto: phf: thanks for making a111 quote mkj log lines
mircea_popescu: it should you know, rejoin if dc'd. and etc.
framedr_ghetto: mircea_popescu: you in rome for real, or some elaborate etymological joke?
mircea_popescu: see, cause the capitol of the republic and of the entire world.
mircea_popescu: the place all roads lead to.
framedr_ghetto: mircea_popescu: it rejoins if it loses connection to freenode; it tries to re-self-voice if it detects it does not have voice anymore. it does not rejoin chan if it gets kicked. will be fixed.
framedr_ghetto: right, right!
mircea_popescu: framedr_ghetto it's a very cheap signal of "you're drunk", which should be used to reset its state
framedr_ghetto: absolutely.
framedr_ghetto: !$ hello
scriba: Hello, world! My uptime is 3:56:58.
mircea_popescu: a so it works now ?
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 17:38 phf: why asm??
mircea_popescu: apparently not.
framedr_ghetto: feel like a (very shitty) nasa engineer communicating with rover on mars and not being able to debug
mircea_popescu: anyway, not the end of the world eh ? fix it tomorrow, nothing burns.
framedr_ghetto: yah. just, feels bad
framedr_ghetto: wine and cold weather and joys of subletting a flat to local folk.
mircea_popescu: did they burn it ?
framedr_ghetto: not yet!
framedr_ghetto: but cleaning a flat... that's a demand too much
framedr_ghetto: there's also a brazilian guy who keeps his dirty socks in the hallway; apparently it's a pattern and not a single instance, too
mircea_popescu: phf to answer the "why asm" thing : because if at issue is to obtain a correct f(lisp) so as it produces the same asm as gcc(c) then we'd better have a good example of target "same asm". his approach is judicious.
mircea_popescu: well at least now i know who to talk to if i ever want real estate in where was this again ?
framedr_ghetto: [btw, just got an x220 for on-foot-travel mode / days. ssd + 9 cell battery => joy. it's a goddamn nice machine. keyboard before lenovo ruined it, etc.; cheapo i5 before it was downsized for "ultramobiles" / w/e. robust as fuck.]
framedr_ghetto: mircea_popescu: glasgow. eh, i'll be outta here this month next year, i think. weather and, you know, the whole wanna-be-empire-failed-island thing..
mircea_popescu: ah yeah. i wouldn't wanna go there.
mircea_popescu: oddly, i know lots of people in a1, but none of them plan to stay
mircea_popescu: few and far between exceptions
framedr_ghetto: "extract purchasing-power-sterling and get outta there" OH WAIT
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#1053 << you know, making a nic is not the end of the world.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 17:54 asciilifeform: consider how the thing expects real-time (1000s/sec) interrupt handling, but ALSO has 1,001 places where you must busy-wait for some register bit to flip
mircea_popescu: it even has the advantage of being perhaps the most feared item by lizard court, aside from nuke detonator.
mircea_popescu: 1311 lines should be enough for anyone./
BingoBoingo: In other Quora these syphilitic pussies and their love of $20 chicom firehazards https://archive.is/MMN6v
BingoBoingo: !!up framedr_ghetto
deedbot: framedr_ghetto voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1544495 << go and make even a thing that helloworlds on a pci bus, without si fab.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 21:14 mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#1053 << you know, making a nic is not the end of the world.
asciilifeform: all roads lead to sane fpga, or to perdition.
framedr_ghetto: btw if (tm)(r) is being used to denote those "trademark" signs (and not tmsr), it may be noted that (tm) is for an uregistered trademark and (r) is for a registered one. but i guess the reflexive-ironical use of these makes it fine :p
BingoBoingo: It is being used for being used.
mircea_popescu: ^ guy just likes to paste those in for some reason ; they don't seem to carry meaning.
BingoBoingo: giving nonsense meaning would be fiat
mircea_popescu: "When you get systems that are too complicated to understand, people respond with superstition. Thousands of years ago, people didn’t understand astronomy. So superstitions arose—like praying to appease the spirits thought to be responsible for an eclipse." << this, for the record, is idiocy of the ilk of that-blogger-whats-his-name hurr-durring about how EVIDENTLY us nativism / knownothing movement was wrong because look
mircea_popescu: , the irish came and nothing bad happened.
mircea_popescu: anachronism is universally the sign of an uneducated mind - in the blogger's case because he fails to account for the obvious case that "what if the only reason nothing happened is BECAUSE those people were there then ?" ; but in the general case as displayed by lamport also. it is ridiculous to pretend to science, logic and reason, and then to turn around and tell a story of the past in the terms of "here's what's left once
mircea_popescu: we reinterpret it strictly as an extension of the present".
mircea_popescu: astrology as a historical human behaviour eminently is NOT connected to ulterior developments such as astronomy, nor caused by them.
mircea_popescu: and also lamport didn't birth his mother.
mircea_popescu: this corroborated with his dubious indictment of some sysadmin who didn't feel like fixing his computer 20 years ago paint the guy in pretty ugly colors.
mircea_popescu: "Responding to an email message is a simple operation with a simple mathematical description." ok, i'm out. fuckhead has not the first inkling as to what he's talking about.
asciilifeform: ahahaha lamport is idiot and i'm d'artagnan lolk.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 22:29 mircea_popescu: anachronism is universally the sign of an uneducated mind - in the blogger's case because he fails to account for the obvious case that "what if the only reason nothing happened is BECAUSE those people were there then ?" ; but in the general case as displayed by lamport also. it is ridiculous to pretend to science, logic and reason, and then to turn around and tell a story of the past in the terms of "here's what's left once
asciilifeform: we know what the absence of effective 'knownothings' looks like:
asciilifeform: rotterham.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/09/japanese-virginity-reaches-crisis-levels/ << Qntra - Japanese Virginity Reaches Crisis Levels
BingoBoingo: Perhaps hashtag activism is needed: #RotterJapan
mircea_popescu: what does openbsd future look without you know, "that guy who didn't save it before microsoft" ?
mircea_popescu: so, yeah. like lamport all you want, the piece is obnoxiously idiotic in too many places to fucking count.
mircea_popescu: wouldn't be the first guy with a great idea that then got totally beat to a pulp by trying to put it in words.
asciilifeform: i got nuffin'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu nailed.
mircea_popescu also very much likes lamport.
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 602.89, vol: 1164.33753990 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 607.6, vol: 2643.52677 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 608.05, vol: 3571.06537738 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 604.239405, vol: 201769.63330000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 609.679, vol: 325.23130613 | Volume-weighted last average: 604.347722465
mod6 looks around
BingoBoingo: Around says no
mod6: werd up bb
mod6: awe shit, my 5 year wot anniversary was on wednesday.
mod6: spaced it.
BingoBoingo: Oh shit, I forgot to bring a cake!
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