Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2016-04-20 | 2016-04-22 →
midnightmagic: !up copumpkin
gribble: Error: "up" is not a valid command.
midnightmagic: $up copumpkin
deedbot: midnightmagic may not $up copumpkin
BingoBoingo: $up copumpkin
deedbot: copumpkin voiced for 30 minutes.
midnightmagic: oh. I thought anyone who could +v themselves could $up?
midnightmagic: i may have missed him, but anyway he asked me for +v
mircea_popescu: $gettrust deedbot midnightmagic
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 1 by 1 connections.
mircea_popescu: midnightmagic> oh. I thought anyone who could +v themselves could $up? << i'm not entirely sure how this even works by now. possibly only l1 ?
midnightmagic: but i'm rated by you :)
midnightmagic: oh well, good denough to just have active users willing to do it.
mircea_popescu: ups really only get hard once one starts being loudly stupid
midnightmagic: mircea_popescu: so if you are majority owner of the new private mpex, did you just force a sale of mpex to yourself?
midnightmagic: hrm. maybe the /topic needs and update for accuracy's sake re: +v being a sort of viral thing
mircea_popescu: yeah possibly needs an update.
midnightmagic: dangit. everybody seems to do things the exact times I'm not actively observing..
midnightmagic: I am 12 days out of date re: MPEX sale.
mircea_popescu: well if you actively observe a day every 12, you have a 94% chance of missing events.
midnightmagic: It would indeed be a sad life were a human be doomed to repeat a 12-day cycle ad infinitum!
mircea_popescu: hey, most humans historically lived on a 7 day cycle composed of a smaller 1 day cycle 85% of the time.
deedbot: $b 2 is not a command.
midnightmagic: Historically humans have been a fairly sad lot by the reckoning of reasonably educated developed-nation citizens. But no, it just seems that while I look away things happen that I find interesting with frequent regularity.
mircea_popescu: the notion that the aforementioned 7 day cycle / daily cycle human was SAD is so much fan wank, to survive in the minds of the incredibly sad contemporary population mostly on the grounds that hey, panglossism is easy and where would they meet a german serf anyway, to find out first hand he was actually having a better life than they do.
mircea_popescu: ~nobody at any point in history was as sad a lot as the ~1bn dead souls captive in the said remains of "the western world"
midnightmagic: Such a thing did I not say; but rather to assert both that a 12-day repeating cycle would be a sad life, and that ancient humans lived a sad and brutish life to which few, if any, modern humans would realistically adhere should they find themselves the unwitting beneficiary of what heretofore might be considered the romantic notion of historical displacement!
mircea_popescu: the latter point being in dispute.
mircea_popescu: the only crapsack world is the present, in the sense that the only time most nobody, historical or contemporary actually would choose to live, is now.
midnightmagic: Either through modern weakness, or perhaps a lack of related distant observational choice of a pure soul about to be born, it would surprise me indeed to discover a current-era developed-nation citizen who when presented with a factual account of ancient human life would choose to return to primal ways. The romance of the garden of eden is similarly equidistant from fact as is the romance of classic
midnightmagic: al civilization.
mircea_popescu: "a factual account" is an exercise in nonsense. should this "factual" be presented in ideological terms alligned with the present insanity, and should this "tabula rasa" item be somehow atuned to same ideological terms (which has exactly no chance of happening, but they invested in promoting and preserving said idiocy like to pretend it's somehow natural and universal, like all other ideological blind tunnels ever), then yes.
mircea_popescu: in all other cases, abso-fucking-lutely no.
midnightmagic: I merely intended to convey the hypothetical notion of an actual life as experienced first-hand. Even 100 years ago frontiersmen arriving to the Klondike, as a more accessible example, lived a life so perilous and filled with hardship I doubt nearly anyone alive would choose to return to it.
mircea_popescu: consider as a simple example palindromes, a 2004 film by todd solondz. it tells the story of a plain, common girl aged 13 that wants to get pregnant. she is in this representative of a small but present throughout history minority. for living in any other time, she would have had a husband, children and a family and been perfectly happy. such as is amply recorded, as undesirious we might be to look at the records.
mircea_popescu: instead, she gets a mother that forces a curetage on her that ends up with a hysterectomy,
mircea_popescu: and then explains the importance of abortion for to increase the qty of quarts of icecream in the house.
mircea_popescu: the notion that this sort of trade appeals to anyone but the patently insane is... well.. patently insane.
mircea_popescu: midnightmagic as far as the "100 years" thing, i'll retreat behind cazalla's words :
a111: Logged on 2015-05-15 06:31 cazalla: ben_vulpes, comparable homes in my area are going for 600k, supposedly worth so much more than what my grand parents paid for their massive acre blocks back in the day where they were able to raise lots of kids on one wage yet i'm supposed to believe you're average australian couple who both work and pay for someone else to raise the 1 kid have it better because the total lack of land and bricks is worth $$$
mircea_popescu: the people who went to klondike SOUGHT OUT the perilous life they lived. the people stuck in traffic sought out no traffic.
mircea_popescu: nor the college debt nor the unlivable sky.
midnightmagic: Amusing tangential but related example is Seth McFarlane's diatribe in 100 Ways To Die In The West, which in its agonizing detail describes wild west living in a way rarely seen in sanitized novels written by people more interested in Marty Robbins folk song. :)
mircea_popescu: just because one style of lying is replaced by another style of lying doesn't mean we've reached any closer to "factual".
mircea_popescu: 100 ways to die in the west or no, mark twain died in his bed after smoking two carloads worth of cigars.
midnightmagic: The people who sought out the Klondike were people whose lives were often equally brutish, violent, oppressed, and hateful. Hard work was so hard by our reckoning that doing it at home or believing the lies of the thrice-remove rumour mill impossible to corroborate was enough to drive them by the thousands across land and sea and river for the promise of a life *where they no longer had to deal with
midnightmagic: such hardship.*
mircea_popescu: your epithets are about as interesting as the miners calling you a confused youth with no real understanding of the world.
mircea_popescu: what is this, "brutish" ?
mircea_popescu: stuff like "oppressed" and "hateful" just disolves in its own juices, it NECESSARILY can't mean anything other than
midnightmagic: Violent and absent justice and civilization.
mircea_popescu: except "civilisation" is what they had, not what you do. and your idea of "justice" is... welll. the sops.
mircea_popescu: moreover, absent violence is a diseased state.
midnightmagic: Of course were I pure hypothetical pure soul standing in front of many bags, into each one I could leap and choose what time I arrived, absent any cultural baggage and in any event viscera at all, perhaps I would think differently. As I am now? Disease, sanitation, violence, injustice, cruelty, exposure, starvation.. these are alien pressures to any of us. A rare, rare few thinking they could achiev
midnightmagic: e a kind of fiefdom in such a past I think might wish to make the journey to begin with, but exposure to violence of the sort Soapy Smith meted out is, I think, something no one given the choice with eyes open could make, constitution notwithstanding.
mircea_popescu: well of course as you are now you'd pick your poison. that's the problem.
mircea_popescu: as he is now, junkie would like a hit.
mircea_popescu: but this is no basis for any sort of discussion of the possibilities.
mircea_popescu: and note that most people lived quite happily under same soapy smith. in fact, from experience a mob run town is a better place than a bureaucrat run town, without exceptions.
mircea_popescu: EVEN when bureaucrat run town consists of "give everyone foodstamps", ie, it's not even self-sustained.
midnightmagic: That is true. Can the poison be separated from the person now? Is it possible to live a pure life in that sense? I know some who do. Like right now. Friends. And while integration with our life is impossible by now, they are wistful.
mircea_popescu: who's to know.
midnightmagic: I know of nobody who was happy he was there except Soapy Smith and his gang themselves.
mircea_popescu: well yeah, because happy people don't tend to make facebook pages
midnightmagic: Still. Small example, admittedly.
mircea_popescu: it's an intricate point.
mircea_popescu: for one thing, there's the "we were younger then" thing.
midnightmagic: That is true.
mircea_popescu: in unrelated news, "This is your XQJ-37 plasma cannon. The only trouble is that since the old model XQJ was cobbled together from junked Amiga motherboards, you can only have one shot on the screen at a time."
midnightmagic: Unrelated factoid: the life expectancy numbers shockingly low are usually calculated as an average including infant mortality rates.
mircea_popescu: iirc this was discussed in the channel last time someone tried to use the "life expectancy" thing.
mircea_popescu: however - it turns out high infant mortality is absolutely necessary for males to even consider starting a family. if there's 0 natural selection going on in the litter the task of extracting unworthy worms from the wailing woman's clutches to bang their head against a rock is just too damned demaning and ultimately not worth the hassle.
mircea_popescu: which is part and parcel of why today's west utterly sucks : most of the walkers should have been dead before puberty.
mircea_popescu: "oppressed" and "violent" and whatnot sound bad on paper - but in practice all it means is that "you can walk into two bars, one of which has sensibly shittier people than the other". choice is more or less obvious.
midnightmagic: ahI hardly think a baby's chance encounter with chlamydia is a positive evolutionary pressure. Besides, if all that was the ideal then all medicine must be eschewed in service of the notion of natural selection, while a belief in our *ability to detect long-term positive evolutionary mutations* must be assumed perfect.
mircea_popescu: not necessarily that far. merely pointing out that this car is worse than a horse is not necessarily a proposition to eschew all further use of fire.
midnightmagic: I'm not going to be defending millenials, by the way. Their particular deficiencies appear to be maladaptive.
mircea_popescu: (i've had the pleasure to do exactly that - by the way, stuck in cab with old driver on avenida corrientes - which has been here since the ancient days before planes were a thing - and reminescing how this road was fine back when 20 men could ride abreast - but not so far today when 3 cars and a bus can)
mircea_popescu: as factual as it gets, most buildings on eitehr side HAVE ACTUALLY SEEN THOSE HORSES.
midnightmagic: No, it's not, but I mention it as an example of why the notion itself is problematic that infants should die in order that the remainder be presumed strong.
mircea_popescu: the whole argument is that there's nothing wrong with infant and generally youth mortality IN PRINCIPLE.
midnightmagic: Awesome. The cabbie rode horses?
midnightmagic: My grandfather rode horses.
mircea_popescu: midnightmagic he was 70ish, and was a small child at the time.
mircea_popescu: living memory, sorta thing.
midnightmagic: He hated them. He liked nice horses but as a whole found them capricious and unpredictable beasts harder to maintain than an old austin.
mircea_popescu: exact same has been said about women
mircea_popescu: generally by people not very good with them.
midnightmagic: I'm going to go murder some videogame people and make some geeks scream futilely at their TVs now; I mention this mostly to excuse myself from present conversation and so as not to exit said chat more rudely than I must. As always, nice to be able to use words bigger than two syllables, dude. \o
mircea_popescu: hey, try eulora sometime.
midnightmagic: ok will do
BingoBoingo: A typical reddit user history
BingoBoingo: ;;google mit chain anchor
BingoBoingo: ;;google mit chain anchor peter todd
gribble: MIT ChainAnchor - Bribing Miners to Regulate Bitcoin - Peter Todd: <>; AndreasMAntonopoulos (@aantonop) | Twitter: <>; Griffin Brown (@griffinbrown_92) | Twitter: <>
asciilifeform: 'Based on the information I have available to me, it appears that the MIT ChainAnchor Project is in part an attempt to get Bitcoin users to register their real world identities and associate their transactions with those identities. Initially this would be on an opt-in basis, however it appears that ChainAnchor has a longer-term plan to bribe and coerce miners into only mining transactions from registered users, eventually prohibitin
asciilifeform: g non-registered users entirely.' << mega-l0l!
asciilifeform: 'n the ChainAnchor semi-permissioned overlay a successful miner receives a further additional payment (beyond the new coins and transaction-fees in Bitcoin) for completing a block consisting only of permissioned-transactions. For a validated permissioned-block, IdP-PI and IdP-PV must verify that the successful Miner’s public-key is found in the Verified Identities Database. That is, they both must ensure that the Miner has executed
asciilifeform: the zero knowledge proof protocol with the IdP-PV prior to mining for ChainAnchor permissioned-transactions.'
asciilifeform: everybody recalls, yes, that this endgame was obvious even in 2013 ?
asciilifeform: miners will receive as much printolade as it takes. the ones who refuse - 'have problems' etc.
asciilifeform: 'Allegedly ChainAnchor was looking into paying miners an additional premium if they mine on top of compliant blocks rather than on top of non-compliant blocks; a possible strategy for miners might be to use compliance as a tie-breaker when determining what side of a fork to mine on. It’s also easy to imagine tools like DoS attacks being used, as well as legal, regulatory, and even social pressure. Finally of course, once a majority
asciilifeform: of hashing power is on board, a direct 51% attack is always possible (though I’d expect a more subtle approach to be used).' << ahahaha.
asciilifeform: what it takes to make even peter todd barf!
asciilifeform: reminiscent of ukr atrocities where the ss came and barfed
mircea_popescu: all this, of course, because no miner cartel.
asciilifeform: iirc there originally were ~two~ minercartels
asciilifeform: but the american one went limp
mircea_popescu: the ustards, as worthless as the middle east showed them
asciilifeform: and holy fuck, nearly 500 bizarrely-exponented keyz
mircea_popescu: yet somehow inexplicably, the lengthy string of apologies and mp-worship does not seem to in any sense balance out the very short chain of vitriol and mp-bashing.
mircea_popescu: wonder of wonders, this free world of idiots.
asciilifeform: anyway the todd piece seems to suggest that intel finally coughed up their miner.
asciilifeform: or will in near future etc.
mircea_popescu: or stuck improvising for lack of viable strategy through events unfolding no one could have predicted, or or or.
asciilifeform: one can at least dream that they will sink a few $trillion into hardware that we can then brick.
mircea_popescu: they don't currently HAVE trillions, for any purpose, including feeding the apparatus.
mircea_popescu: but maybe a bn or two, with any luck.
PeterL: ;;later tell jurov could you look at CoinBr, seems whatever mircea_popescu did messed up the account balance
gribble: The operation succeeded.
PeterL: $up jurov_
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu << lulzy
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ^ die of laugh
shinohai: congrats on getting phuctor back up and humming btw asciilifeform
asciilifeform: ty shinohai but it isn't 100% up yet, as you can see
asciilifeform: (only filling the tank and doing basic static tests, calculator will be installed later this week)
shinohai: Baby steps
asciilifeform: there is a very mass-grade-digging-up, time-capsule-like feeling to reading phuctor output
asciilifeform: *mass-grave
asciilifeform: it lifts the cover on - imho - a very interesting time period
asciilifeform: where pgp seemed to 'threaten to go mainstream' and usg had not yet decided what to 'do about it'
asciilifeform: and so resorted to flooding the market with braindamaged 'embrace&extinguish' incarnations of it,
asciilifeform: and then to spray out blatantly doctored keys etc.
asciilifeform: the weakest link was always in the fingerprint mechanism
asciilifeform: and in the basic braindamage of communicating with strangers for whom you have no hard point of introduction.
asciilifeform: iirc mircea_popescu explained this some time in 2013 but i haven't the link here.
phf: oh i should add date ranges to search..
asciilifeform: phf: that would be quite spiffy
mircea_popescu: lol jurov
mircea_popescu: i'm guessing users can't just re-enter their orders or something ? anyways.
mircea_popescu: in other news i see phuctor numbers marching steadily up, 440/562 by now ?
asciilifeform: and these are just moduli that tripped the heuristic checkz
asciilifeform: interestingly,
mircea_popescu: well no, some are duplicates
asciilifeform: the 440
asciilifeform: interestingly, if e is not coprime with n, the key cannot be used.
mircea_popescu: EL HACKEO ?
mircea_popescu: o fuck me sally.
asciilifeform: in case anyone did not know this
mircea_popescu: !aprendamos y luchamos!
gribble: Error: "aprendamos" is not a valid command.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: tldr - linked item purports (pgp-signed..) to be account of the hackteam vivisection.
mircea_popescu: here's a thought, nobody that needs to discuss computing in his dumb mother's tongue has what it takes to "luchar".
mircea_popescu: and fucking luchemos omfg. everything is wrong with these people. EVERYTHING
asciilifeform: well the phacts check out.
asciilifeform: word on the street is that it was published in sp as a deliberate insult.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i'm sorry, i can't go through the introduction
asciilifeform: anyway tldr is that 'hackteam' used a boatload of commercial crapolade on their lan.
mircea_popescu: and / so ?
asciilifeform: and so got thoroughly raped.
mircea_popescu: random derpy outfit nobody cares/cared about , what.
asciilifeform: it was a niche thing. firm that specialized in writing virii for idiot orc govs.
asciilifeform: the folks who give a shit - know who they are.
asciilifeform: snore from last year.
mircea_popescu: looky, even here, the faux is obvious : "solamente correos cifrados porfa thunderbird/enigmail" ? gimme a fucking break.
mircea_popescu: yes it will brain-parasite a bunch of retarded hablaespanoles.
asciilifeform: i have nfi. possibly 'protocols of zion' aha.
mircea_popescu: o noes, the maid and the gardner!!11
mircea_popescu: who the fuck is thatch45 ?
mircea_popescu: "good this was changed, world wasn't doomed before". who the fuck is madduck
asciilifeform: thread was about none less than RSA WITH EXPONENT OF 1
asciilifeform: put this in pipe, smoke it...
mircea_popescu: i can see that.
asciilifeform: and no i have no idea who the zoo animals were.
mircea_popescu: also dlitz has a point
asciilifeform: or where they are now.
mircea_popescu: this ALSO looks like it has parallel vulns.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i am mostly reading the names so they're in the search.
asciilifeform: gotta love the 'use openssl like everybody else, peon!' folk.
asciilifeform: 'One note to consider: certification, e.g. OpenSSL on RHEL is certified to FIPS 140-2, so if you used TLS with OpenSSL as the backend the FedGOV/large firms/etc could use salt.' << gold.
mircea_popescu: moral being "don't use salt", nfi that anyone does/would.
asciilifeform: i have never seen it in the field. but it appears to be a webtard thing
asciilifeform: perhaps the resident zoologists (ben_vulpes ?) could comment.
mircea_popescu: << it's always the same playbook, incidentally. and we're climbing up the same curve with bitcoin, also.
a111: Logged on 2016-04-21 16:11 asciilifeform: where pgp seemed to 'threaten to go mainstream' and usg had not yet decided what to 'do about it'
phf: mircea_popescu: nah, worst case it doesn't return to a default (typically much more permissive) umask after handling the keys
mircea_popescu: phf usure ?
phf: yes
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but for the record, the brief, illusory "wealth" rained on idiots like ers et all had much more to do with zimmerman's work than with, say, murdock's.
mircea_popescu: as is usually the case, i guess.
asciilifeform: the notion being that anything can be buried beneath an infinitely tall pile of 'cheaper, user-friendly', mit-endorsed imitations
asciilifeform: 'i-can't-believe-it's-not's.
mircea_popescu: this even worked, back before gossipd.
asciilifeform: i specifically remember what esr was a pill against
asciilifeform: his 'open source movement' thing was specifically a counter to rms
asciilifeform: (who and why saw rms as needing a counter-pill, i have nfi)
asciilifeform: but i suppose gnu was seen as possible threat, as pgp once was.
asciilifeform: incidentally i saw esr alive on several occasions.
asciilifeform: he hangs out around this town.
asciilifeform: a sorry wreck of a man.
mircea_popescu: gnu mostly rode on the coattails of the pgp panic of 1990
phf: in the end wreckers ended up being much more effective against rms than esr's oss
mircea_popescu: phf different types of fanatics.
mircea_popescu: it's almost like a tabletop rpg, this shit.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform hey, he lives on a boat, what could possibly go wrong
mircea_popescu: [i suppose we're all too distant from our sailing ancestors to know what age at sea does to man]
asciilifeform: esr is not afaik a boat man.
mircea_popescu: didn't he have a webbegging page up for a new engine back when the lulz at him started ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu has his crackpots mixed up.
mircea_popescu: oh ers was just begging generically, at the same time orlov needed new engine
mircea_popescu: i god danged mixed them up!
phf: esr is the guy who's into guns
asciilifeform: the progression from lottery winner to pauper is sop tho
asciilifeform: consider moldbug.
asciilifeform: or any other lotto champ.
mircea_popescu: there's lotto and then there's usgotto.
mircea_popescu: in the first kind, random derp ends up with some chumpatronium. being random he is randomly distributed re skill, and normally the juice leaves him. similarly if i took a marketable blonde and told her to go live with random guy on the street, which she will because they do what i say, he'll STILL manage to lose her over time.
mircea_popescu: in the second kind, highly intelligent BUT SPECIFICALLY LOBOTOMIZED male is gently nudged back into the pen.\
asciilifeform: how really different are the two ?
mircea_popescu: very. first - guy is specifically unselected. second - guy is specifically selected.
asciilifeform: i see more quisling than lobotomy victim re esr et al
asciilifeform: he was specifically hired as a kind of zhirinovsky.
asciilifeform: (tame oppositioneer)
mircea_popescu: there's a deep reason that works, and that deep reason is that these aren't whole men.
phf: none of these people are hired to do something out of their nature, they show up how they are, hence lobotomized
mircea_popescu: knowing as we do in fact know that children normally develop into whole men almost half of the time, their presence is proof of artifice,
mircea_popescu: or as the women call it, "civilisation".
asciilifeform: and not only are they selected as the 'least likely to take the money and run to namibia',
asciilifeform: but it isn't as if they were paid on actual hard money that could buy the necessary truck of kalash ammo
asciilifeform: usg has a quite correct, from its pov, 'belt and suspenders' approach here.
asciilifeform: my point being that the actual amount of 'polit reliability' asked of the esr folk is minimal.
mircea_popescu: the issue is not political.
asciilifeform: how much damage could a suddenly 'cured' esr do ?
mircea_popescu: not anymore than "can i trust this eunuch with my dear roxy" is political.
mircea_popescu: he just can't get it up, what.
mircea_popescu: there is ~no cure.
asciilifeform: i did not say there were.
mircea_popescu: certainly not from outside, nor in old men.
mircea_popescu: it's a case of "the cure seeker never really needed a cure - magic was always in him ; the non-seeker... well..."
asciilifeform: just pointing out that 'roxy' is a pile of bricks
asciilifeform: so eunuch gets it up one day
asciilifeform: he will fuck bricks ?
mircea_popescu: roxy is a sweet piece of ass, howdareyou!111
asciilifeform: not this one!11
asciilifeform: (btw i wonder how many readerz know who was roxy.)
mircea_popescu: anyway, yes, could have done lots of damage. opened joint-venture with iran in lebanon lol.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they will, in article i'm writing.
mircea_popescu: well, packaging. but anyway.
asciilifeform: i think pete_dushenski knew
asciilifeform: incidentally how come we have no turks.
mircea_popescu: da fuck deedbot's goen ?
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell trinque the problem with deedbot being offline is that i am forced into the dilemma of either turn ben_vulpes req for voice down, or else voice people outside of the model. i don't like either horn, at all.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: is there any practical reason not to have spare bot ?
mircea_popescu: i dunno, that it dilutes the cool ?
mircea_popescu: ends up in a "did you forget to buy bread" situation.
asciilifeform: Netsplit over, joins: deedbot- << l0l
asciilifeform: btw thinking again about it, lotto is quite like usgotto in that the skill distrib. in either case is NOT random
asciilifeform: i.e. the folks who play lotto, are selected in practice for dullness
asciilifeform: in ACTUAL random distrib, you often get a winner
asciilifeform: consider the folks who often rise up in times of civil war etc
asciilifeform: 'in every private's rucksack, a marshall's baton' (napoleon!)
mircea_popescu: this is a very good point.
asciilifeform: any time you see 'below random shot' result, sit and think !
mircea_popescu: they are both selected for dullness, arguably of distinct kinds, but ultimately very much the same : they're the sort women want to raise their babies [if not to make their babies].
asciilifeform: some draft animals have 2 legz
asciilifeform: whatcanisay.
mircea_popescu: if roxy goes into the bath in front of the trusty eunuch, is she a pile of bricks ?
phf: also stories about dimwits getting genie bottles always have some moral to them that's applicable to "real life". there's really no moral to solomon getting genie bottle, since solomon is that with or without one
mircea_popescu: is it a wall, that the impotent can not fuck, for the not fucking ?
mircea_popescu: is then the wall one fucks a woman by that gift ?
mircea_popescu: phf this breaks down once moses gets box of covenant ?
asciilifeform: when somebody with half a brain gets the bottle, all bets off.
mircea_popescu: [hence why jews have the best old stories - they had the courage to do what good writers always do, go in the middle and subvert the trope]
asciilifeform: pretty much the whole of usgology boils down to 'keep folks with brains from accessing the boojum'
mircea_popescu: it has to, you understand ?
asciilifeform: no shit
mircea_popescu: you lot can not be trusted. the smarter you get, the less you can be trusted not to be dumb.
phf: mircea_popescu: i don't think so, since moses was a man on a mission from god, it would be a distraction for him (from the mission) to choose to become a magi, hence the story
mircea_popescu: phf did you read the story ? he did become a mage.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: even something as basic as ~time~
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: do you have any idea what, e.g., i, could do with a whole month !
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this, incidentally, is the one cure / amulet of protection / curse removal / whatever actually worth finding.
phf: sleep ad libitum?
phf ducks
asciilifeform: phf is not wrong
mircea_popescu: no, no, protect smart people from scaling up the dumb.
mircea_popescu: it's almost as if the meta-brain was made of plasticine, and with a fixed origin. yes you can make it go as far in one direction as you want, but this thins it out in all others, meaning there's an exponential relation between "furthest out" and "furthest in" points
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: elaborate plox ?
mircea_popescu: suppose you have 3.141592 squnits of brain. you get the option of making it into a circle [mens sana in corpore sano!!1] and you are guaranteed to be no dumber than 1.
mircea_popescu: should you decide to make it go 72 units to the left, which you can do, what guarantee you can offer re "shortest distance from origin" ?
mircea_popescu: 0.01 ? 0.0001 ?
mircea_popescu: 72 * 0.0001 = 0.0072, and allow me to remind you what the mathematical notion of optimal play is
mircea_popescu: it specifically says you're not supposed to play as a 0.00x
asciilifeform: circles get raped by the motherfucking athenians tho.
mircea_popescu: whoosh. say wut ?
asciilifeform: the mens sana in corpore sano folx
mircea_popescu: ah. yes, poor predictable rock.
mircea_popescu: the problem with the "we'll just superimpose differently spiked circles into this ball of wrecking" solution is that well...
mircea_popescu: works when it works.
mircea_popescu: nobody knows why it doesn't when it doesn't.
mircea_popescu: but the problem here to my eyes is that there really is no motherfucking reason for the meta-brain to act like if made of plasticine. really, figuring out the memory hole effect is THAT hard ?
mircea_popescu: much like independence is deliberately not taught to girl-cows in agrarian societies, sanity is deliverately anti-taught to smart kids in socialism. so what ?
asciilifeform: my first paying job was to observe telomeres shortening. so i understand this process pretty well. BUT mine are not any longer from this!!111
asciilifeform: thinkaboutit
mircea_popescu: you should, at least in fucking principle, get infinitely better results by just picking all the easy fruits and normalizing everyone's head to fucking semblance of sanity.
asciilifeform: sometimes dun matter what you know or not.
asciilifeform: as in the thread re biological process of 'i am not my mother!1111'
mircea_popescu: well, fuck you. my teleomers lengthen by watching others shorten, just like my cock gets hard by watching women spend each other.
mircea_popescu: agodami.
deedbot: [Qntra] Phuctor Returns Vastly Improved -
deedbot: [] BitBet conclusion statement -
mircea_popescu: check out the news hub.
mircea_popescu: oh there he is
trinque: sorry about that guys. I left a tcpdump running to catch the SSL weird and filled my disk
mircea_popescu: this should be in the fucking bash lmao
phf: !b 3
gribble: Error: "b" is not a valid command.
mircea_popescu: maybe the new bash works by searching for "fucking bash"
asciilifeform: good nyooz is that all the !b's can be processed retroactively...
phf: ^
BingoBoingo: And the $b's
deedbot: [Trilema] But what about the slave ? -
copumpkin: "Your withdrawal request has been received and will be processed. Note that all withdrawals are verified manually, and they may take up to 48 hours for approval. If 48 hours have ellapsed and you still haven't received your bitcoins please contact mircea_popescu in #bitcoin-assets. Note that if your account at the time of processing holds fewer BTC than your withdrawal, this order will be executed up to that limit. Also, please
copumpkin: consider rating mircea_popescu with gribble."
copumpkin: 1) "elapsed", not "ellapsed"
copumpkin: 2) outdated channel recommendation
copumpkin: (this in on mpex)
asciilifeform: l0l,vintage
mircea_popescu: gribble eh.
copumpkin: mircea_popescu: also, as general good practice, it'd probably be good to include the address and amount of the withdrawal in the message, perhaps with a date. Currently the message is a constant, so the signature on it feels a little less valuable
mircea_popescu: not so sure that is good practice, general or otherwise.
copumpkin: there's no acknowledgment of the parameters of the withdrawal. For all I know you think I want a completely different amount, to a completely different address :P
copumpkin: the only way I'll find out is by waiting 48 hours, at which point it'll be too late
mircea_popescu: it'll be too late for what ? i have your signed slip, it's what it is.
copumpkin: yes, but I have no receipt acknowledgment of that signed slip. You've just acknowledged getting some slip, and are not committing to any particular slip of mine. If you mess up your book-keeping, you might dig up an old signed slip of mine making a different request to a different address, and I'd have nothing to talk to you about until after it was too late
mircea_popescu: a) "too late" for what ; b) if there's an old slip of yours, it either has an address that was paid in it or not. if it does, then it doens't matter ; if it doesn't, you have a claim.
copumpkin: a) the coins have already been sent to the wrong place. Perhaps I'm not "liable" and have a claim, but it's adding inefficiency to the system if you have to cover for a mistake which could've been avoided in the first place
mircea_popescu: there is no such thing as "the coins"
mircea_popescu: and there's no inefficiency in the system as it is, for it is simple. the inefficiency begins once you expect to have a 2nd "superior" channel on top of the slips. which will then have to be managed.
copumpkin sighs
copumpkin: all I'm saying is that with today's system, I have no cryptographic paper trail that you've actually received the commands I expect you to have received
copumpkin: your gpg-centric system could give me that by simply signing a fingerprint of my commands
copumpkin: I could then store those signatures and chew you out publicly in the case of a dispute
copumpkin: "look, mircea said he received my sell order, but now he's claiming he didn't"
mircea_popescu: you can do the same as it is.
mircea_popescu: there's degrees there. the guarantee you're offered is that you won't be losing your balance ; not that you won't have orders lost.
mircea_popescu: that part is best-effort.
copumpkin: that's fine. But signing my slips still gives me a verifiable paper trail of the things I attempted to have you do, whether or not you guarantee doing them. It gives me an avenue to claim that you've at least seen and acknowledged an order, even if execution is best-effort
copumpkin: oh well
mircea_popescu: that's fine, but not how it works.
mircea_popescu: this "that's fine" device, lolz. what's it supposed to accomplish ? you can't set aside what i say.
copumpkin: I'm not setting it aside
copumpkin: I'm saying that it's fine if you don't honor a sell order of mine
copumpkin: if you don't honor a withdrawal, that's different
copumpkin: "but I never received it", he says on public form
mircea_popescu: inasmuch as you get your stat signed and timestamped, you should be fine.
mircea_popescu: well, he says that once. what next ?
copumpkin: you can keep claiming you never received my withdrawal request
mircea_popescu: i guess i could.
copumpkin: I'll keep sneding them
copumpkin: you send me a generic reply
copumpkin: I have a signed generic reply
copumpkin: I also have a signed STAT output
mircea_popescu: there's all sorts of things i ~could~ do.
copumpkin: so I claim on reddit that I have a balance, and you keep claiming that you never get my orders
mircea_popescu: it's unlikely i'd claim anything on reddit.
copumpkin: you know what I mean
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, reddit/bitcoin apparently mass-downvoting the story of bitbet NOT being a scam ?
mircea_popescu: such community.
mircea_popescu: copumpkin i don't, no.
copumpkin: in some sort of suitable public shaming forum, like this one
copumpkin: I'd go say "yo mircea, where's my fucking money"
copumpkin: the folks in here support you by default
mircea_popescu: and i say i dunno dude, never got it.
copumpkin: before they accept my claims that you're being dishonest, they'll want proof that I actually asked you for money
mircea_popescu: and so we go through this a coupla times and then i go you know what, just register a deed already, this is getting ridiculous
mircea_popescu: as a forinstance.
copumpkin: or I could just present a signed slip
copumpkin: signed by both of us
copumpkin: and then we'd shut up and move on
mircea_popescu: except that slip can be held against you everywhere.
mircea_popescu: such as for instance in divorce proceedings, or whatever the fuck.
mircea_popescu: mpex is made to serve a certain view on this world, not all possible views.
mircea_popescu: all possible views that don't conform can take a hike.
copumpkin: sorry, you lost me there
copumpkin: you already have something signed by me
copumpkin: if my estranged wife goes to you and asks for it
copumpkin: that can still be held against me in divorce proceedings as evidence
mircea_popescu: ;;google daphna waxman
gribble: SEC Knocks on MPEx's Door, Popescu Doesn't Budge | Finance ...: <>; SEC gets on the Bitcoin investigation bandwagon - Washington Post: <>; | SEC Charges Three (1 more message)
mircea_popescu: you can sign any amount of withdrawals you want for any arbitrary funds you don't have. it proves exactly nothing.
copumpkin: but you've already signed my STAT output
copumpkin: why is it any different to sign my slip asking for a subset of that?
mircea_popescu: the stat is a single item. these are separable for reasons.
mircea_popescu: nobody asked you to do your stat process in the same way you do other processes.
asciilifeform: unrelated lulz: << old suspicions of bicyclist racers with hidden motors finally proven.
mircea_popescu: hidden magnets ?
asciilifeform: electric motor.
asciilifeform: sorta like what is found in fancy bikes from jp
asciilifeform: supercap charges when going downhill
asciilifeform: discharges into motor - uphill.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo re lafond's article - iirc you can buy surplus cruisers ; as well as various knick-knacks like body armor from afficionado stores (here they're called cotillon stores).
mircea_popescu: it's not illegal until you actually try to make an arrest or somesuch.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform kinda hard to hide that no ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: read the piece. some italian finally managed to miniaturize the thing into the frame
mircea_popescu: but even so it needs a drive ?
asciilifeform: thin shaft into the gears, yes
asciilifeform: or roller, against wheel
asciilifeform: several ways to do it
mircea_popescu: roller is observable tho
asciilifeform: possibly even something involving a pulsed magnet near the gear tooth.
asciilifeform: i can think of a few tricks that won't be immediately apparent.
mircea_popescu: i'd have thought nicely made wheel out of paramagnetic alloy ; then vary a field.
mircea_popescu: what i was hoping for.
mircea_popescu: strip vertical and horizontal bits, as it were.
mircea_popescu: not even so expensive, given that iron is crazy like that.
asciilifeform: actually aluminum disk will turn if embedded halfway into a 60hz field
asciilifeform: lenz's law.
mircea_popescu: also. prolly better huh.
asciilifeform: still works, albeit less efficient, if less than halfway in.
mircea_popescu: of course i wasn't thinking of pig iron, rather, one of the fiberglass / ceramic sorta things with high magnetic dust included.
asciilifeform: in other nyooz, asciilifeform is very very near to an escape from butugychag.
asciilifeform: good, ol'-fashioned malware stuff. if the deal pans out.
ben_vulpes: what gulag name will you use for this gig?
mircea_popescu: this fox is wise beyond its years ?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: myhouseschwitz
ben_vulpes: hyuuuu
mircea_popescu: the occurence of things that can't happen always takes place in april.
asciilifeform: what miracles did we see last april ?
mircea_popescu: a year ago is too far for memory to reach
BingoBoingo: ;;google april in bitcoin 2015
gribble: Predict the price of Bitcoin on 1 April 2015 - win CGB's ...: <>; Inside Bitcoins New York: <>; Inside Bitcoins New York: <>
midnightmagic: fascinating.
midnightmagic: Where *would* the trail be in the event a court were seeking assets.
midnightmagic: MPEX would have to cooperate absent signed receipts sent to the user.
midnightmagic: (In order for the hypothetical discovery to successfully take place, I mean.)
asciilifeform: midnightmagic: prolly why mircea_popescu specifically does not spit out such receips, i thought this was clear from the thread
asciilifeform: why hand out crosses to users for usg to nail them to.
asciilifeform: incidentally if mircea_popescu really needed to solve this 'problem', he easily could, in cryptography world this is known as 'otr protocol', you encipher to a public key generated for the occasion, and the private key for it is later thrown to the wind for hypothetically anyone to know
asciilifeform: so the non-repudiatability of the message only lasts for as long as the two parties wish, and no longer.
asciilifeform: so until time T, recipient ~knows~ that message could only have been sent by mircea_popescu, but at time T+e it could-have-been-from-anyone as far as the confiscator, who finds the records, is concerned.
mircea_popescu: it becomes complex and thus prone to failure.
mircea_popescu: mpex is very carefully designed with various such tradeoffs considered, an' i think i've done enough free consulting on the topic for one day.
mircea_popescu: heck, jpm can barely afford it by the hour.
mircea_popescu: midnightmagic the only legal proceeding contemplated will go on here. anyone seeking justice in the new world must have a wot presence.
mircea_popescu: the rest - not people.
midnightmagic: I *think* the OTR protocol uses a revealed MAC between the parties *but more crucially, a stream cipher for malleable encryption* so that at explicit termination of the conversation neither party can claim later that the other one definitely wrote something specific in the log of each. The deniable authentication protocol therein doesn't reveal it to the public -- only to the other party. Publically
midnightmagic: revealing the key would break the forward secrecy. But I know what you mean. Still, as described all an eavesdropper would have to do to fairly strongly prove the authenticity of the message is stamp it and assert that there's no evidence the pubkey was revealed before then. That is, a third-party passively listening to the conversation with self-assured reliability could watch it happen, then obse
midnightmagic: rve the pubkey was revealed, and itself could assert that the one happened before the other. The difference is subtle. In OTR the keys involved are supposed to be shredded at termination of the conversation. copumpkin here is looking specifically for non-repudiability post-hoc which neither OTR nor your described scheme could give him.
asciilifeform: midnightmagic: the idiot complications of usgtronic otr protocols are irrelevant.
asciilifeform: i described the basic essence
asciilifeform: i.e. the session key being revealed.
asciilifeform: as for 'non-repudiability post-hoc', see the epic gossipd thread in the logz.
asciilifeform: you can't have 'fried ice'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform while it's true that the otr as implemented for say irc is dubious at best, his point remains :
mircea_popescu: a passive observer could certify.
asciilifeform: depends how the disposable key is revealed, and where.
mircea_popescu: how would it depend on that ?
midnightmagic: On the other hand, this way copumpkin -- I think -- can state things about the transaction that can't be known and nobody can say different. And MP for that matter, which reduces the transaction to trust.
midnightmagic: "I warrant I will do this when you ask." "I'm asking."
mircea_popescu: midnightmagic the chief problem here is that time has gone by and left copumpkin behind. he's still in this lulzy 2012 where bitcoin was a geek thing and the fashion of believing "technology will supplant humans" went unchallenged, in their own circles.
mircea_popescu: it's dead and buried by now, under a pile of ridicule.
midnightmagic: copumpkin is pretty realistic about things I think. :)
mircea_popescu: not this one.
mircea_popescu: this particular fashion is more antiquated than disco.
mircea_popescu: occasionally reared its head around bitbet, "oh, you should do it so -and -so provably". met with the universal "fuck you, there's no way out of trust." which, obviously, instructed those who it instructed and washed off the rest.
midnightmagic re-reads and missed something
midnightmagic: yay I'm a person
mircea_popescu: tech is a tool. yes, there are very good places where making things work by the cold equations makes sense.
mircea_popescu: this is neither universally the solution, nor any sort of mystical geek messiah.
mircea_popescu: (news at 11, you'll still have to talk to people, ipad or no ipad.)
midnightmagic: I could see that sort of thing (non-repudiability) being useful for something like an exchange which operates under some kind of public law.
copumpkin: not sure I ever claimed otherwise :)
copumpkin: but feel free to demolish that argument I never made
mircea_popescu: copumpkin excuse me while i strawman you into a convenient position for the benefit of the kids.
copumpkin: no problem, I'm eating popcorn
copumpkin sits off to the side
midnightmagic: Mm. That reminds me, gotta make some coffee.
mircea_popescu: i already had my sammich, doing a review of wild things, of all things. anyone saw it ?
mircea_popescu: ~ denise richards' tits.
punkman: they even had sequels iirc
mircea_popescu: the tits ?
asciilifeform: re the 'trust and machines' thread,
mircea_popescu: apparently, i'm discovering, this is an entire market vertical, "young women + illegal sex". usually school setting, always some sort of lawsuit as to rape, corruption, what have you.
asciilifeform: didn't we do this way back when, when i wrote the mpex review
asciilifeform: specifically mircea_popescu's reply to same
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform possibru.
midnightmagic: fwiw, I don't have much of an opinion one way or another. If I went into it knowing this were the case, I could find it very useful to have this property in my transactions with, say MPEX. But for, say, a *deposit address* on a webpage for an exchange, I *would* want non-repudiability as per, say, TLS message authentication extension in RFC .. hrm. That RFC where it's defined but was never implemen
midnightmagic: ted, to prove "hey, this is the address they gave me, now they're saying they didn't receive anything but look at this txid."
midnightmagic: The payment protocol thingy Gavin did *can have* also the property of saving signed invoices for the client including such information but nobody cares and there hasn't been a high-profile use of the PP where a dispute ensued.
mircea_popescu: midnightmagic you get that.
mircea_popescu: mpex being, today as it was when it got started, exactly the ONLY bitcoin service doing this.
mircea_popescu: everyone else is "well this is what we print on the screen" and that's that.
mircea_popescu: somehow, nobody has found it their life's mission to badger everyone into the dust for this, however.
mircea_popescu: inexplicably enough.
mircea_popescu: and for that matter i've yet to hear someone go "i'm not sending anything to derpy webwallet / webexchange / webusgtronism because htey don't gpg sign the address"
mircea_popescu: as long as there's boost, everyone's happy.
asciilifeform: i'm willing to believe that there are other pgptronic businesses, 'other mpexes', but strictly on the same basis as 'life on other planets', i have no knowledge of it
asciilifeform: just as i would never know about mpex if mircea_popescu had not awakened me from my cave.
mircea_popescu: fine, only publicly known
midnightmagic: I think I'm one of.. perhaps two people requesting it or trying to do something about it. We never know we need that sort of thing until one day we do.
midnightmagic: (That I know of.) Oh Well.
asciilifeform: << thing is, and see today's earlier thread in fact, pgp per se does not magic away the 'give me a place to stand on' problem
a111: Logged on 2016-04-21 21:25 mircea_popescu: and for that matter i've yet to hear someone go "i'm not sending anything to derpy webwallet / webexchange / webusgtronism because htey don't gpg sign the address"
asciilifeform: still need a hard point of trust to know the genuine public key
asciilifeform: 'do business with keys' (tm) (r)
mircea_popescu: for preservation of lulz :
asciilifeform: deleted already ?
mircea_popescu: worst day in teh history of reddit, when it turns out that service closure WASNT scam.
phf: i suspect snr on reddit is so low the event is not even going to be perceived as something that requires a cover up on such articulated terms. the burying is something in the range between "confederate flag? downvote." and "mircea? something not scam? downvote."
mircea_popescu: phf ofcourse, but the lulz of "community"
mircea_popescu: the community of what ?
mircea_popescu: OF BITCOIN!!!
mircea_popescu: phf if you peruse the thing it's obvious where it's at, the 10 dollars or less bin.
asciilifeform: i have nfi why anyone here even bothers with reddit today.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform kids gotta go somewhere. they're not allowed almost anywhere else.
asciilifeform: ~as interesting as talking to pigeons.
mircea_popescu: notably, they're not allowed here.
asciilifeform: how's that
asciilifeform: iirc, e.g., gabriel_laddel, is a young fella
mircea_popescu: kids is a combo of iq and yo.
asciilifeform: ah if in that sense, there are 60 y.o. 'kids' and why do we need them.
mircea_popescu: well... reddit'll have them, and what are they to do. let the internet age pass them by ? miss out on the informational superhighway ?
mircea_popescu: are they not people ? if you fuck them in the ass do they not bleed ?
mod6: oooh, i heard about that 'information superhighway thingy'. they say we'll all be doing everything in 'Virtual Reality' in a few years.
shinohai: <<< well it is a source of popcorn drama and qntra lulz
a111: Logged on 2016-04-21 21:39 asciilifeform: i have nfi why anyone here even bothers with reddit today.
deedbot: [Trilema] The Next Generation -
mats: too bad I moved, no poop for you
mircea_popescu: wtf is this lmao
mircea_popescu: check it out, fmt provider. they sell the shit you give them for free ?!
mircea_popescu: at least the cows get a quarter per gallon for the milk the supermarket sells at a dollar a liter.
mircea_popescu: well, after they dilute it 4:1, of course.
asciilifeform: it's london 1600s all over again.
mircea_popescu: nm apparently they pay
mats: lol
shinohai: dafuq mats O.o
mircea_popescu: til mats pw:rn is allbut einstein
mats: i have desirable poo
shinohai: iirc the Romans taxed urine traders, but did not know there was a thriving stool market.
mats: i was unemployed for a few months last year and i looked into donating bodily excretions, ie, poo, blood, semen
mats: the blood thing worked out handily but i never got anything better than food gift cards and free cookies, juice
mats: semen didn't work out so gud since i was unemployed and, you know, not-white, not-six-foot, etc
mircea_popescu: i thought everyone wants azn semen
mircea_popescu: on the grounds that penis too small to get in normal way anyway
mats: rude
mats: i liked you better when you were busy hating yourself
mats: anglos go rite to hell, etc
mats: hy
ben_vulpes: one thing i know to be true in this world
ben_vulpes: and that is that if someone claims a software library to be "minimalist" or "easy", they are lying through their goddamn teeth
shinohai: >minimalist
shinohai: >written in java
ben_vulpes: "minimalist" means "i made an epic shitton of assumptions and then laid down a zillion lines of code in support of those assumptions"
ben_vulpes: "easy" means "this shit is so complex it will take you a month to realize that it never worked in the first place"
ben_vulpes: shinohai: i don't know on what basis you think this is relevant to any particular programming language
ben_vulpes: eg common lisp has grown a decent tumor of the shit lately
ben_vulpes: lately being, oh, my entire tenure on earth
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> "easy" means "this shit is so complex it will take you a month to realize that it never worked in the first place" << lol
shinohai: It probably isn't ben_vulpes just the first language that came to mind.
trinque: ben_vulpes: yes but.. is it intuitive?
phf: ben_vulpes: to be fair common lisp tumor is mainly perceptible only to a special kind of basket cases. it is still one of the healthier ecosystems.
asciilifeform: phf: the emacs tumour (see logz, the 'flycheck' thread) is what really blew my mind
asciilifeform: traditionally, the populist chickenbrains folks avoided emacs like plague
asciilifeform: but then somebody realized that it was next on the 'embrace & extinguish' chopping block, and the 'flychecks' appeared.
a111: Logged on 2016-01-19 04:28 phf: asciilifeform: you know they produced a whole series of those, f.el, dash.el, s.el. "modern"!
asciilifeform: there is apparently nothing more alluring to the vermin than a not-yet-verminized ecosystem
asciilifeform: it is like crack cocaine, to them.
asciilifeform: common lisp verminization will proceed on the same schedule as the emacs one, i imagine
phf: although i wonder where you should start the emacs tumour countdown, sometime around MULE
asciilifeform: e.g., in a few years a n00b looking for 'web server' will find ten qeergendered flycheckesque atrocities and - if he is very very lucky - one 'hunchentoot' in a state of disrepair
asciilifeform: phf: definitely mule
asciilifeform: the case of flycheck was especially instructive because, near as i could tell, the thing provided ZERO advantage over flymake
asciilifeform: of any kind whatsoever
asciilifeform: it was a shit sandwich ANY WAY YOU CUT IT
asciilifeform: and yet if you go ~anywhere you will read 'flymake is OBSOLETE!1111 use flycheck'
phf: heh, it has "modern" right there in the title
asciilifeform: then you try it and find that if you need custom compiler flags (or, satan forbid, a non-x86 gcc) you're SHIT out of luck
asciilifeform: whereas flymake uses your own makefile, which can be ANYTHING.
phf: well, emacs is not outside hostile to "obsolete". iswitchb-mode greets me with "this function is now obsolete" on each load. why? who the fuck knows.
asciilifeform: but oh noez it already existed and predated the flies
asciilifeform: so Must Die
asciilifeform: according to flies.
phf: *is now outright
asciilifeform: phf: you gotta understand their modus operandi
asciilifeform: they HAVE to break your working box.
asciilifeform: or nobody in his right mind would consider their crapolade.
asciilifeform: just as i would have never even known about 'flycheck' if i didn't come across a broken (since fixed, by hand) macos emacs.
phf: oh i understand. it's like the cl mode. they've been fighting cl mode for years, without success, because it's hellof useful. not only has cl mode now been replaced with cl-lib which prefixes ~everything~ with cl- (cl-first, cl-defstruct, cl-fuck-your-mother) but they also disabled highlight of all the cl forms. so cl-defstruct highlights, defstruct doesn't. to discourage the sins of the flesh, y'see.
phf: can still (require 'cl), and it will work, but discouraged from writing since there's no highlighting. next release using cl functions directly is going to produce deprecation warnings.
asciilifeform: the only solution to this kind of shit is to BURN it out with HOT IRONS.
phf: there's no solution to this kind of shit outside of "i use cmucl with emacs 19 and ilisp" or whatever, which is programmer's equivalent of mp's 2005 thinkpads
phf: naggum tried to maintain his own versions of everything (i.e. burn it out with hot irons) and...
asciilifeform: this is pretty much the only answer.
asciilifeform: and yes, people try to dodge it because it requires work.
asciilifeform: but there is not actually any escape from it.
asciilifeform: once the gangrene sets in, you either freeze your toolchain or give up work.
phf: heh, of course flycheck uses dash.el
asciilifeform: and a buncha other turd also
phf: it is like your experiment with depoeterring
asciilifeform: hey that worked
phf: "worked"
asciilifeform: worked for ~everything minus a few proggies
asciilifeform: (chromium, wireshark)
phf: at the very least the demarcation lines become ~very~ obvious. it's either an old unix hand with one or two libs in dependency tree, or a modern monster that pulls 50 libraries and fails to install because of some poetterlib
asciilifeform: this should surprise no one
asciilifeform: just as, walking on the street, you meet men, and flies, but never a man-fly hybrid of questionable species
asciilifeform: (outside of the mega-film)
asciilifeform: and yeah, you will know the idiocies by their mile-long trails of 'pango', 'bonobo', and other strange deps
phf: well, it reveals that core infrastructure is rotten, i assume "few proggies" is what's needed on your battlestation, because on a laptop i'm still for example missing power management tooling. even shell script based stuff depends on dbus or somesuch
asciilifeform: at the heart of something like power management there is normally a 500-lines-of-c util that mostly worx, but surrounded for some reason by hairball of rubbish scriptolade
asciilifeform: whosoever can be arsed, can try to strip it away.
asciilifeform: if your stomach is strong, and little else to do (who?) can go, try.
phf: right,puts you back in naggum territory
asciilifeform: at any rate my gentoo-depoetteringizer does not magically fix the ecosystem, shat to all hell, no. but what it ~does~ do is to hard-nuke the autopullin crapolade and reveal who is your enemy and who is merely passive victim.
asciilifeform: as in, what needs to be fixed, and what - burned with hot irons until not even wet spot remains.
phf: who's going to do the burning
asciilifeform: actually carrying the exercise to a usable-to-other-people, well-documented conclusion is somewhere Nth on the list of things i would do if i had mircea_popescuesque levels of free time
asciilifeform: so there is ~no one to do the burning.
asciilifeform: presently.
trinque: you've argued too well for burning the thing down all the way to the hardware.
trinque: why would anyone fix *nix?
asciilifeform: thing is, someone will have to maintain the forked (and, in practice, re-write, most of them are quite nearly unmaintainable) proggies. there is not actually a substitute for, e.g., wireshark.
asciilifeform: trinque: because nothing else is likely to exist in our lifetime ?
phf: wireshark is a kind of IDA or intellij, can just have them running on your most-sane-dev-box-du-jour
asciilifeform: phf: presently there is nothing else to do
asciilifeform: ida is a particularly interesting case because it is a TOTAL monopoly
asciilifeform: as in, nothing else even remotely approaches it.
asciilifeform: i know of no even vaguely similar item elsewhere.
asciilifeform: it is a collective-failure-of-everybody-but-one-guy - sorta like mpex.
asciilifeform: it is precisely mircea_popescu's story about zeus throwing the other gods
asciilifeform: a race where not only first place but places one through ten thousand went to a single winner.
phf: i'm ok that there exists a superior tool that solves a class of problems. kind of like right now paying for intellij ensures that i can do a certain paid work in the most effective way available. perhaps if i have another interesting lisp project, i'll call alegro people again, etc.
phf: i'm more concerned that there's very little ground left that's unpolluted on which i can build a house or possibly raise a barn with other people
asciilifeform: the most concerning bit is the hardware extinction.
asciilifeform: described here on many occasions.
phf: right
asciilifeform: it is especially concerning because the 'end times' situation, where usable computer hardware is expensive and you cannot rely on other folks having same one as you, etc. is actually how we ended up with the unix braindamage to begin with.
asciilifeform: (how rms left the lisp world, think.)
phf: end times situation is that there's not going to be usable hardware, because "nobody" needs it
asciilifeform: well in practice the only usable hardware ALREADY is out of print.
asciilifeform: (see thread re 'opteron' etc)
phf: right, but on the meta level we're at the MULE point of cancer
phf: naggums have a fit, for obvious reasons, but you can still keep on using that emacs, until "they come for me and noone's left"
asciilifeform: this is why the sane fpga will have to be produced.
phf: i.e. my cmucl runs on a clearly compromised intel cpu and can even do interesting things. imagine future(tm) where only way to run cmucl is by crosscompiling into x86 emulator inside your web browser ;]
asciilifeform: it is the only thing approaching a general-purpose pill against the garbage.
asciilifeform: it is worth elaborating re what 'sane' means in this case.
asciilifeform: it means that 1) design is published and is likely to remain available, no reverse-engineered americrud plox
asciilifeform: 2) toolchain is not a closed x86 turd, and in fact can run on an arch implemented on SELFSAME CHIP itself.
asciilifeform: this is a ~basic, necessary step~ to sanity of whatever any other kind.
asciilifeform: (re: 1 - e.g., reversed xilinx 4000 series, is ~useless~, as you cannot buy it in any kind of qty)
asciilifeform: phf: that 'future' is here already for iPnohe users, who have to run the js pc emulator in the browser to play gamez
asciilifeform: if they want classic msdos gamez
phf: right
phf: standardize on 2010 hardware, buy n+1 replacements for all the parts, write program to talk to god
asciilifeform: this is a computerized version of the traditional american 'survivalist' lunacy
phf: :D
asciilifeform: where you seal yourself into a cave with 10,000 cans of 'spam' and 100,000 rounds of kalash
asciilifeform: and then ... .
phf: i didn't realize it until you said it, and it's fucking hilarious, because i'd mock the strategy elsewhere
asciilifeform: when romans sealed up a vestal virgin who had a fuck, they gave her a loaf of bread and a glass of milk
asciilifeform: but when we do it in usa with 10,000 loaves it is called 'survival' somehow.
trinque: this is why you wont find me maintaining ebuilds anytime soon, lol!
asciilifeform: it is quite the same with 10,000 opteron cpu.
asciilifeform: does anyone recall the jet fighter thread ?
asciilifeform: where we talked about the junkyard in the airport in timisoara
asciilifeform: consisting of a tall pile of MiGs
asciilifeform: which had been cannibalized, largely, to feed their dozen or so working ones
phf: (lisp machines)
asciilifeform: i went to the house, where this was done
asciilifeform: and had a machine made
asciilifeform: it was quite like that airfield, yes.
asciilifeform: i haven't switched the thing on in some years
asciilifeform: because, among other reasons, if the disk dies, there is literally NO WAY to restore it
asciilifeform: even if i find identical disk elsewhere
asciilifeform: contents can only be loaded onto it from tape, and i have neither the tape, nor the tape drive !
asciilifeform: (though schmidt did sell me an ~empty shell~ of a tape drive, in case i can ever locate the drive raw !)
asciilifeform: the shell - before anyone asks - has the requisite cabling, ALSO unfindable.
asciilifeform: this is what machine extinction is like
asciilifeform: like to watch ww2 films ?
asciilifeform: then you probably know that NONE of the tanks or planes appearing in ones made in past 40 or so yrs are genuine period.
asciilifeform: real, e.g., 'zero' airplane, exists, in flying condition even somewhere, but do you think it will be wasted on a ~film~ ?!
asciilifeform: i actually spent the first ~6 mo. after i bought the lisp machine, trying to rig up, with fpga, a mechanism to read the fucking disk
asciilifeform: gave up from lack of time.
asciilifeform: st-506 incidentally.
asciilifeform: wanted to not merely read the disk, but emulate
asciilifeform: so i could get rid of the brick and replace with $1 sd card.
phf: i know some folk who can restore 3620 drives, but's that's because that's what they do. i'll ask them what their solutions are at the moment
asciilifeform: the man who did it for a living, had no solution.
asciilifeform: other than a tall (shrinking, as i understand, today - to nothing) pile of drives.
asciilifeform: some outfit in texas makes an emulator gadget, it costs 4 figures.
asciilifeform: i have nfi how well it worx.
asciilifeform: used, as i understand, in critical infrastructure which runs on 1980s minis.
asciilifeform: at any rate, all of these problems are solvable IF SOMEONE CARED TO
asciilifeform: the protocol was documented, i sat down, started doing it
asciilifeform: it is all brute labour
asciilifeform: would have ended up with a result, too, if 'life had not gotten in the way'
phf: well the man who (still) does it for living is not necessarily the ultimate authority, he just does what he needs to do to get those mil contracts cashing in
asciilifeform: recall the pdp emulator thread ?
a111: Logged on 2015-08-02 16:43 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall that pdp emulator fella ?
phf: oh yeah yeah, exactly
a111: Logged on 2015-08-02 16:50 kakobrekla: heh, re pdp, apparently
phf: some problems are probably better solvable than others, can perhaps build a st-506<->sd gadget in garage, can't do same with the cpu
asciilifeform: it depends on what means 'cpu'
asciilifeform: can build cpu for certain purposes out of 74xxx.
asciilifeform: but not for, e.g., bitcoin.
asciilifeform: but ok for, e.g., calculating dynamics of the tamper in hbomb.
asciilifeform: or - at a stretch - pgp.
asciilifeform: (this is mainly academic exercise, 74xxx do not grow on trees any more than 'opteron' does.)
asciilifeform: for a while i got into the question of cupric oxide and other exotic semiconductor
asciilifeform: with the aim of, ideally, finding a way to make integrated circuit in similar ways to how hobbyist can make pcb
asciilifeform: (modified b&w photo process, or at least something not more complicated than doing colour photo at home)
asciilifeform: but i did not - to date - get far.
asciilifeform: made a sorta working cu diode.
asciilifeform: that was it.
asciilifeform: the most discouraging part is the utter lack of anybody giving half a tinker's damn.
asciilifeform: (last i recall mircea_popescu gave somewhere close to 1/10th of a damn, he is to be commended for this)
asciilifeform: it is even worth considering that one could, in principle, compute on something ~other than a semiconductor~
asciilifeform: e.g., an optical delay line arranged in some clever way.
phf: define giving a damn. most people would see something like that as a hobbyist project along the lines of building a cpu out of nand gates, but funding it as an militarized alternative to modern computing?
asciilifeform: there was a whole world of approaches that people spent their lives on, before cheap semiconductor, and entirely forgotten now
asciilifeform: e.g., magnetic logic
asciilifeform: (see logz!)
asciilifeform: phf: 'give a damn' in the serious financial sense.
phf: right
asciilifeform: as it stands, it has a good chunk of the difficulty of space colonization but with ~none of the 'sexappeal'
asciilifeform: unenviable field to live in.
asciilifeform: costs of chip fab as we know it, and of orbital launch, are even comparable.
asciilifeform: and as it stands, 'hobbyist' semiconductor is roughly in the same place as hobbyist space travel.
phf: spreading works
asciilifeform: not even.
asciilifeform: if i could make one thing, on a traditional si process, it would be an fpga.
asciilifeform: the by far least idiotic item to make.
asciilifeform: unfortunately it would have to be on a reasonably recent density, to be useful.
phf: i'm very vague on the whole process, i'll have to read up on it
asciilifeform: (fpga only became a seriously practical thing, really, in 2000s. you will find them from '90s but on MASSIVE boards with dozens of the same unit)
asciilifeform: fpga also plays well with my 'specificity of diddling' theorem.
asciilifeform: i.e. there is no effective way to subtly sabotage the thing if you do not know the victim's intended circuit layout.
phf: for example i don't quite grok why can't press low density vlsi at home. seems like all or nothing kind of proposition.
asciilifeform: phf: it again depends.
asciilifeform: do you need to melt and refine the si ?
asciilifeform: cut the wafer ?
asciilifeform: chemically prepare the cut wafer ?
asciilifeform: or did someone do all of this already
asciilifeform: (in many modern plants, the things are purchased pre-prepped)
asciilifeform: conceivably if you start with a sufficiently prepped product, you can 'vlsi at home'
asciilifeform: but then the act is only scarcely different from using fpga.
asciilifeform: you did not make anything, really, and you relied on a supply chain that is quite likely unstable, esp. if you become 'interesting'
phf: right
phf: the jet plane problem
asciilifeform: my take on it, is that if you are using some industrial product in this, it absolutely has to be something available in MASSIVE qty, readily
asciilifeform: just as afghanis make kalash with hand tools, yes, but do not worry about getting ammo, it is gettable
asciilifeform: (if they had to try to make ~it~ they would quickly fight with swords again)
asciilifeform: analogously, the correct thing to make today would be not merely fpga,
asciilifeform: but one where the physical package is brought out to a 'nuts and bolts' thing that you can screw into an aggregate, tiled, without making pcb
asciilifeform: where 'computer' is simply this mass, of how many of these things you screwed together and attached dc power supply to.
asciilifeform: picture 1,024 'cubes of computronium'
asciilifeform: handily solves 'diddle' also - which cube will the enemy sabotage ? how does he know which one will hold what part of your circuit before you assemble them ?
asciilifeform: even if enemy supplies ~all~ of the cubes.
phf: "greenarrays"
asciilifeform: aha but macroscale.
asciilifeform: also 'greenarray' i will nitpick is not an fpga
phf: right
asciilifeform: but just a die with a number of conventional cpu.
asciilifeform: (if small.)
asciilifeform: fpga is also nice because, in principle, it can be optically inspected
asciilifeform: (put a quartz glass window in it, like 1980s eproms)
asciilifeform: structure is very regular.
asciilifeform: thing consists largely of sram.
asciilifeform: (modern vendors succumb to the temptation to put a great many special-purpose parts in fpga, e.g., multipliers, even whole cpu cores, etc. i am specifically not talking about their rubbish.)
phf: so the idea is what drop $500k on an pure documented fpga, hope that maker crowd will help you recoup your costs, use fraction to run tmsr infrastructure? :)
asciilifeform: it'd be quite a bit more than 500k
asciilifeform: and i have no reasonable expectation that anyone could recoup the costs.
asciilifeform: ergo it ain't happening.
phf: so what's the advantage of fpga based architecture as opposed to someone hypothetically investing quite a bit more than 500k into a high density risc, etc.?
asciilifeform: the advantage is that you keep the design space.
asciilifeform: can run x86 proggies today, and have the option of proper lispm later
asciilifeform: there is also the advantage i described earlier, re 'specificity of diddling'
asciilifeform: the thing is that neither of these concerns really interests anybody who has a spare 500k
asciilifeform: (again this number is missing several 0's, but for sake of argument.0
phf: well, more like 8086 and cadr today and proper lispm maybe in the future if somebody designs one
phf: ok, i'm going to sleep. this was an entertaining conversation, even if a recap of many past threads
asciilifeform: it is not actually hard to massively improve on cadr, much of its gnarl was that it had to be made of 74xxx and of weird amd ALUs available at the time
asciilifeform: 'nigh phf
BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 408389 | Current Difficulty: 1.7867830767168845E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 409247 | Next Difficulty In: 858 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 12 hours, 51 minutes, and 5 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
mircea_popescu: check out the alfwall.
mircea_popescu: mats> anglos go rite to hell, etc << but i'm not anglo ?!
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: All pale folk look alike apparently?
mircea_popescu: he just hates me because i'm beautiful.
mircea_popescu: << it's not JUST that, also needs another ingredient, a special flavour of "open". geek-open, when people aren't comfortable with humiliating idiots.
a111: Logged on 2016-04-22 00:37 asciilifeform: there is apparently nothing more alluring to the vermin than a not-yet-verminized ecosystem
mircea_popescu: << i don't comprehend how this can even be a thing.
a111: Logged on 2016-04-22 00:46 phf: oh i understand. it's like the cl mode. they've been fighting cl mode for years, without success, because it's hellof useful. not only has cl mode now been replaced with cl-lib which prefixes ~everything~ with cl- (cl-first, cl-defstruct, cl-fuck-your-mother) but they also disabled highlight of all the cl forms. so cl-defstruct highlights, defstruct doesn't. to discourage the sins of the flesh, y'see.
mircea_popescu: who the fuck asked anybody, and why isn't this just some text config file somewhere.
mircea_popescu: << i think naggum was an incredibly poorly managed project. i wouldn't think his experience informative, for anything
a111: Logged on 2016-04-22 00:49 phf: naggum tried to maintain his own versions of everything (i.e. burn it out with hot irons) and...
asciilifeform: naggum fought alone.
mircea_popescu: [yes, i've beaten tax authorities into the dirt on multiple occasions]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform mens insana.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: except you did not do it from the position of being a pauper.
mircea_popescu: indeed not.
asciilifeform: srsly you need a certain amount of mircea_popescutronium to 'jurisdiction shop', appear in court, etc.
mircea_popescu: wouldn't advise anyone to try, either.
mircea_popescu: it's one thing to try and run a marathon. it;s another thing to try and run a marathon with pneumonia.
mircea_popescu: but in general - not that i expect this to be practically useful to anyone, as it isn't without the rest of the tools involved - the matter hinges on that fine thin line when liability can be personally attached. once you can start going after individuals rather than their precious "government" construct in the abstract, they pop like watermelons in august.
asciilifeform: in usa, at least, 'individual' is more often than not sunk on the very day he has to so much as ~appear~ in court.
asciilifeform: kiss job good-bye, etc.
mircea_popescu: depends, it can be very productive.
mircea_popescu: i've so far netted more money than the average us citizen's net worth out of simply selling cases.
asciilifeform: just hiring lawyer for a week would wipe out ~99% of usaschwitz inmates
asciilifeform: and yeah i recall, in logz, 'whichever hungry london barrister buys'
mircea_popescu: in general, if you're not working with retained counsel, but have to purpose hire, you have no business going to court.
mircea_popescu: diff jurisdiction, england.
mircea_popescu: i meant us specifically.
asciilifeform: but admit, this is 0 use to a naggum.
mircea_popescu: this is how this works : if it is your field of expertise, you have legal team ready to go. either you're a complete imbecile, or woe be upon whoever gets involved. if not your field of expertise, you're either prosecuting in which case generally you want to assign the matter ; or else you're in deep shit.
mircea_popescu: i admit, and admitted above.
asciilifeform: so then. what should he have done against the tax inspectors.
asciilifeform: the one option was, i suppose, to go stack.
mircea_popescu: "what should man that discharged his rifle into his boat do ?"
asciilifeform: pop 2nd round into his head
mircea_popescu: "man should not discharge rifle into boat". who the fuck told him he can run a consulting business without a tax expert ? even accountant level.
mircea_popescu: he decided to do this incredibly idiotic thing after which didn't want to pay the slap on the wrist penalty that attaches to doing incredibly idiotic thing ?
asciilifeform: tax expert would have somehow settled the 80% norwegian tax, assessed ~based on profession~, rather than actual receipts, into something sane?!
mircea_popescu: at the very least would have warned him 2 years in advance.
asciilifeform: and it wasn't a slap on the wrist, it was - iirc - a pretty penny
asciilifeform: i.e. what he 'could have earned'
asciilifeform: (they would not believe that he preferred to work 2-3 mo./yr in actuality)
mircea_popescu: the term "slap on the wrist" is a business call. it stands correct as it is. your "pretty penny" is a housewife call. it's not relevant how much it is.
asciilifeform: it is relevant to the man who has to pay and hasn't with what
asciilifeform: and from whom they then take whatever isn't bolted down
mircea_popescu: how do you perceive what he did (hurr durr i'm going to be a business) is different from average tardstalk forumite (hurr durr i'm going to be an exchange) ?
asciilifeform: granted, to mircea_popescu on mt olympus none of this is relevant
mircea_popescu: point stands : if you aren't a businessman, and don't have business skills, why are you starting a business ?
mircea_popescu: what if he started flying a plane without ever learning math ?
mircea_popescu: "i didn't expect solid items to be where the atmosphere goes"
mircea_popescu: "yeah well..."
asciilifeform: and if he had learned..?
asciilifeform: would have learned to not even try, and then what, spend life working for racal norsk ?
asciilifeform: it is precisely the 'overcivilized' thing
asciilifeform: over here in usaschwitz folks learn to - yes, not even try
mircea_popescu: look, the dilemma here isn't "either i be eunuch or else i go fight for odin as a berserker"
asciilifeform: yes, an accountant could have - and probably did! tell naggum that he was fucked.
asciilifeform: how much good this did ?
asciilifeform: how was he to get ~unfucked~.
mircea_popescu: could have told him WHAT fucking each path would hold in future!
mircea_popescu: this is not to be taken lightly.
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